When I posted the translation of the Ukrainian Successors to Hitlerite Wehrmacht Rape and Murder in Saurovka Message from Fyodor Berezin, Igor Strelkov’s Deputy” I knew that I was doing something risky which would raise some eyebrows and, sure enough, it did. Here are two examples of such reactions:
Too far. Way too far. Ukie Nazis cutting men to pieces alive, keeping women so they can rape them, killing each other and carelessly dumping bodies along with weapons, a female sniper with a bright new American automatic rifle (?)… This is the point when the source loses all credibility. Saker, I thought you were warning of that few days ago…
In order that credibility is maintained (as with Hezbollah!), a claim such as this should provide some proof. Videos or photos, explanations about this is known. If the Ukies are regularly returning to rape, that must mean they control this village, right? If so, how does the resistance know about this?
This is what I posted in reply:
Several of you have expressed very reasonable doubts about the veracity of this story and I for sure cannot confirm a single word in it. When anonymous read “Ukie Nazis cutting men to pieces alive, keeping women so they can rape them, killing each other and carelessly dumping bodies along with weapons, a female sniper with a bright new American automatic rifle (?)…” he/she concluded “Too far. Way too far.” This was also my initial thought. Then however, I remembered that “peaceful civilians, including women and old men, beat up, gassed and burned to a crisp while the Nazi crowd sang joyful songs. The few who tried to jump from windows were shot and beat to death after their fall. At least one pregnant woman was choked to death with a telephone cord”. Is that not also a case of far, too far? Except that it happened in Odessa, in front of literally thousands of witnesses. So let me ask you this:
a) what are these guys capable of when there are no witnesses?
b) should I de-facto censor this testimony from the combat area on the grounds that there is no proof or that such atrocities are far, too far?You tell me. Honestly! I am asking for advice here.
Maybe that guy made it all up and maybe he is a clumsy propagandist. As far as I can tell, he is Strelkov’s deputy and I know that Strelkov does not always get it right (his claim about the Ukie unit destroyed by his forces goes against all the witnesses of the case). So that does not reassure me. So what do I do?
Shall I pass on the message “as is” or should I block it on grounds of “too far”?
If there had been only ONE witness in Odessa – would it have not bee “too far”?
You tell me.
Then, having thought about it, I decided that this is too important an question to leave at the bottom of a long thread. This is why I am re-posting it here. And let me re-phrase it this way:
First, I personally have no doubts whatsoever about the Ukie death squads’ capacity for vicious atrocities unthinkable to a sane human being. I need no further confirmation for myself. Second, I have no way of verifying most of the info which I get from Novorossia and Banderastan. Third, this is your blog – you, the reader – and you should have a say in how it is run because this blog is here to serve you, not me. So – what do you want me to do the next time when I get such a report?
I shall be waiting for your advice with great anticipation and gratitude.
Coming back to the issue of the kind of people who are in power in Banderastan, I leave you with a report by The Truthseeker which touches exactly on this issue.
Kind regards and many thanks,
The Saker
——-
Saker, I think you should keep on posted this kind of reports. Knowing what happened in Croatia, and this war being total reap off of war in Croatia, this report is fully believable.
I would ask that you err on the side of caution. I started to tweet that post out and then finally decided against it, because it was sensational and unconfirmed, and an easy target.
All it takes is one strike against your (Saker’s) credibility – one sensational post that turns out to be a fraud – and it will be used against you forever.
As your blog becomes more and more of a Voice, there will be attempts to make sure you’re silenced, one way or another. Please be careful.
Trust your readers, post info as is, and if evidence indicates that a given incident is likely, as this one looks to be based on the MO of these types, then your readership will be able if not to conclude with certainty, then at least we will be able to formulate a tentative hypothesis.
Kudos on your blog, to start with.
Just post it. If and when you consider a snip of info to be completely wrong i’m guessing you will hold back until you, personally, get it confirmed. Right there is the main filter at work and that works for me.
Secondly, if people cannot live with the texts then they should simply refrain from reading them .. better yet, do not come to the blog. If you do however, you are responsible for your own likes or dis-likes and should not bother others in a disrespectful manner.
my 2c
It is all a function of purpose.
Perhaps you could use the – “it is reported” prefix with a prominent health warning about “presently without corroboration” in the header and the footer.
This may improve the blog by increasing a sense of scepticism as well as uncertainty, since many without experience tend to seek certainty, and certainty can only exist in a state of omniscience which none of the participants can have.
It would also increase opportunities for misinformation from the opposition which is not necessarily a disadvantage as misinformation is data source to be analysed.
As a context let me suggest the following may prove of some benefit.
http://orientalreview.org/2014/06/22/the-reverse-brzezinski-the-ultimate-eurasian-dilemma-i/
http://orientalreview.org/2014/06/23/the-reverse-brzezinski-the-ultimate-eurasian-dilemma-ii/
@Gayle 14:01
While true, Saker has already shown his sincerity and honesty for all to see by admitting when he has made an error, no one expects him to be flawless, as Assad said in one of his interviews, “he who does not make mistakes does not work.”
When you post something Saker, you make a judgement, we are here because, whether we agree with you on this or that issue, is not as important as the fact that we trust your judgement. So trust yourself Saker, and count on us to torch any bullshit that we are able to spot.
I say, with @Gayle to be cautious, but on the other hand, I’d still like to have access to the info. Perhaps lead in with a statement of unconfirmed, take with grain of salt. Everyone here knows enough not to believe everything they read.
Saker — You should post “on-the-ground” reports as given ALWAYS with the caveat that the report is based on unconfirmed data, observations or opinion. If its true or factual then likely there will be other sources to backstop at some point. If you allow your blog to be manipulated by trolls who will take issue and argue every data point — cause that’s their game — then your readers will never get any information from the ground. Which is what the trolls want. To shut down stories which make people see them for the lying, murdering cunts they are. (Pardon my language — but these people are despicable and vile — and they live and breathe the same air — which totally disgusts me.)
Keep doing what you’re doing. Your readers have the ability to filter what they want — and to be skeptical of whatever they chose. You don’t need to do it for them. Unless you know something is fabricated.
Good job. TRUTH always wins in the end.
Saker,
I think you should post them but state right in the beginning of the post that these are unconfirmed reports.
Too far?
The Japanese were catching our babies on bayonets and forcing monks to rape pregnant women and grandmothers.
It must all be documented. We cannot afford to ever forget this. To do so is an insult to the dead.
Saker, as always, trust your judgment. I also consider the Nazi deathsquads to be fully capable of committing all sorts of atrocity and it has been DOCUMENTED that they already have. I do not consider this report “too far.”
I think the commenter himself couldn’t believe the extent of human depravity during war. It wasn’t really a reflection of your evaluative abilities. In future, trust your own judgment, post warnings if you feel they are relevant, but accounts like this are absolutely invaluable and they are the most compelling tools for myself as a writer when I do research.
Post what you hear with qualifications about how much veracity you can assign to it. Erring on the side of caution? Given the atrocities in Odessa, erring on the side of caution should be about telling the world about potential victims and further potential atrocities.
If you think your neighbor’s house is burning do you err on the side of caution for the sake of your reputation and not call the fire department in case you are wrong. Or do you err on the side of caution by calling and telling the fire department what you know and what you surmise. Of course if you think it likely you err on the side of caution for the potential victims.
When information comes from an identifiable source OR what has been a credible source in the past (and no one is perfect) then IMO, it should be posted – this is not a court of law and it is not even a newspaper (although Media standards are MUCH lower than what we have here in this blog, and they regularly report what they know to be untrue).
To guard against fear-mongering, just note it as “not yet confirmed.
By posting such a story two things happen: 1) you encourage others there to help with the process of confirmation and 2) you create awareness in the Ukrainian side (they watch this blog too), so that good people will move to stop it and even the evil ones will try to restrain it out of embarrassment
ALL reports on this blog must be held with varying degrees of scepticism. We do know that history shouts that when the Nazi mix of racism and religious mission is capable of any atrocity. Columbus did the same in his new world, without the excuse of war, and an entire indigenous race numbering millions was extinguished.
As to death squads, “atrocities” are not only part of their capability but more importantly are part of their purpose.
This is a well rehearsed option for the beacon on the hill – one that is generally screened out by the folks back home who “love” their country.
If the going gets tough, the tough could get going in a venue close to you.
Dear Saker,
About posting reports from Novorossiya that seem “far, too far”, I would suggest continuing to post them, especially if there is any credibility to the source, but presenting them as “unconfirmed”.
Regarding proving I’m not a robot, I seem to be having a challenged moment figuring out what these letters are. Any way to go back to old photos of home addresses?
Saker,
Post it! This atrocity is just as important as any other. I reposted it. People that live in the American bubble of not wanting to know is starting to change. I do believe this has happened. Probably still happening. Disgusting as it is people have the right to the full truth nothing but the truth so help us God! Bless you and the courage it takes to live in reality. Even though many more don’t! This is not the comfort zone this is a damn war zone!
The Times They Are a-Changin’
Shit truth, it keeps the same.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia#Methods
Quote – “Timothy Snyder describes the murders: “Ukrainian partisans burned homes, shot or forced back inside those who tried to flee, and used sickles and pitchforks to kill those they captured outside. In some cases, beheaded, crucified, dismembered, or disemboweled bodies were displayed, in order to encourage remaining Poles to flee”.[88] A similar account has been presented by Niall Ferguson, who wrote: “Whole villages were wiped out, men beaten to death, women raped and mutilated, babies bayoneted.”[89] Ukrainian historian Yuryi Kirichuk described the conflict as similar to medieval rebellions.[90]
According to Polish historian Piotr Łossowski, the method used in most of the attacks was the same. At first, local Poles were assured that nothing would happen to them. Then, at dawn, a village was surrounded by armed members of the UPA, behind whom were peasants with axes, hammers, knives, and saws. All the Poles encountered were murdered; sometimes they were herded into one spot, to make it easier. After a massacre, all goods were looted, including clothes, grain, and furniture. The final part of an attack was setting fire to the village.[91] In many cases, victims were tortured and their bodies mutilated. All vestiges of Polish existence eradicated with even abandoned Polish settlements burned to the ground.[44]”
Do not pay attention the text is concerning Poles. They were one of many national enemies. The methods applied were all the same.
Post first hand reports. Of course there are problems if someone spoofs you. Do your best to “source” the source. You have with the SitReps. Much of that is not 100% confirmed. Some is.
One thing most of us who have been alive and sentient for the last few decades is that the US government, its agencies, contractors, allies and stooge “democratic” friends would and have killed women and children with alacrity. So too, will they and have they tortured and killed boys and men they capture.
Ukraine and the Banderistas have been OSS and CIA assets for over 79 years. I personally know a US asset (talk with him frequently) who has walked the streets of Yalta, Sevastopol, Odessa and Kiev and done some “wet work” in the Eastern zones of Europe. Nothing is out of the question in the US ideological war, and now the Hegemonic death throes we see played out in the East and South Ukraine.
Give it to us with a caution:
First Report/Unconfirmed
This will differ it from SitRep.
And it will illuminate it swiftly, not kept buried like so many of the victims lost already.
Please don’t misunderstand me. I’m not saying this didn’t happen. I’m aware of the utter depravity – the evil – of the Other Side, and know they’re capable of this, and worse.
And it’s precisely for that reason that I urge caution upon Saker. If the Other Side deems him too effective an enemy, it will do what it takes to make him shut up. No, I’m not talking about physical violence. But the western propaganda machine has made a fine art out of discrediting people they don’t like, and if those targeted people don’t have a powerful organization or large audience behind them, it’s very hard to fight.
Just – caution. That’s all.
I think you should post them but we need to know if these were unconfirmed reports.
And you could ask to your readers if someone could confirm the report.
I came here, not to be served, but to be informed…!
Saker : this blog is here to serve you (…)
I no longer have any doubt to why Poles and Ukrainians are betrayed by their allies again and again, as what starts out as sympathy from the allied population, ends up with revulsion, when they turn out to be worse than their oppressors, in addition to endangering their allies.
Do the Poles really think the population of France, Norway, Holland, Belgium, Denmark, GB, Germany and the other NATO members will continue to have sympathy for the Poles, when the Poles tries to force NATO to get back at the Russians, by helping the neocon’ed CIA create a civil war in the Ukraine?
Unless the Poles clean up this mess themselves, by kicking out their current leaders, they might very well end up with no European allies, and a rightfully pissed Russian bear on their doorstep.
I think you should post and stress there’s no proof. Information is always important…
Gayle @ 15-34 June 25th
Such decisions are typically interactive functions of purpose and utility.
To be seen as an enemy has utility, even to those who assign enemyness.
This utility is enhanced if it is evaluated as being not perceived by he who is deemed an enemy, and there in lies a modicum of protection as well as vulnerability.
Even Igor Kolomoiski would likely hope to profit from this as do others.
So Rumsfeld was not so stupid – unknown unknowns can be useful – its a well known technique in manipulation – part of the manual as he was aware.
This loses some its potency when people are weaned from the illusion of certainty and its need – or are already dead.
I like
First Report/Unconfirmed
then give the source, if it’s not confidential.
Telling the truth is highly important. There is a big difference between “Situation X!”, which is a subjective opinion, and “Leader says, ‘Situation X!'”, which is objective. Stick with the truth.
Saker obviously trusted the source to the extent of publishing it, yet there is no harm done with the apparent consensus being formed:
Post first hand accounts of events. Flag those as “[as of *date*] Unconfirmed/Uncorroborated” as the case may be.
I would add the inverse: “[as of *date*] Corroborated” should be useful too. And “Anonymous A (B,C or D)/Named source” is also relevant to keep track of credibility.
If most readers may be used to do this by themselves, this sould help those which aren’t in adopting a good practice.
As others say, post it to the full extent but also apply a “not verified”. If there are videos/pictures of the incident in question, please either post or link also. Not because I have any interest in gore, but because we need to see the truth for what it is.
I personaly find you blog extremely informative. News here in Norway is extremely “washed” like other western countries.
Hello Saker, Thanks for all of your efforts. Trust your sources. Richard Silverstein has a long running blog and has reported information that was wrong. He owns up to his mistakes and moves on. I think he is up against the same types you may cross.
Thanks Again,
Doug
I agree with all who urge to “publish and be damned”
I especially agree that those of us so sheltered from the truth in the US, must be constantly reminded of the evil depravity that the US government seems actually to prefer, and specializes in.
One day there may be some kind of reckoning made by the people for all this within the US – I can’t even imagine what that would look like. But none of it can come unless the US people can learn and understand graphically what a schizophrenic culture we’ve lived in for so many generations – an American dream built on a nightmare.
I see nothing wrong about posting that letter. If you have doubts the material is accurate, say what they are as part of the post. If the info is unconfirmed, say so as well. But I find much info that is “confirmed” often turns out to be somewhat different from that which was confirmed, so that’s no guarantee, either.
I would advise the following:
Preamble these posts with:
Part 1:
“witnesses on the ground report:”
“so and so reports:….,”
“preliminary reports state:….”
“An unconfirmed but credible report states:”
Part 2:
“While this report has not YET been confirmed it is consistent with the savagery and mass murder carried out by Right Sector armed thugs in confirmed incidents as shown by these pictures: [put a hard link to photos of the Odessa massacre victims, including the pregnant woman].”
I think such a preamble with a constant reminder and link to Odessa is important, because Odessa is slipping from people’s memories, it shows people a REAL precedent, AND it obviates any attempt to misuse or discredit your posts on unconfirmed but credible reports of massacre XYZ: Why? … because any such attempt to publicize an error you might make, would also draw attention to the pictures of the Odessa massacre. Consequently, slimebag-accessories to mass murder in the MSM will find themselves trapped.
Post it, but explain as you did, that it is completely unconfirmed at this time. Until such time it remains an accusation.
The ugly truth is there is going to be propaganda and falsifications on both sides, it’s war after all.
It is hard work to fish out the truth in this environment, impossible at times, but it is absolutely imperative that someone does this, and you can be fairly sure it won’t be the official state-approved media on either side.
My suggestion would be to add a disclaimer whenever you take over third party content, that it comes “as is” without any guarantee of accuracy and veracity. You may then add qualifiers like “could (not) be independently verified” or “no confirmation yet” as you see fit for it.
As to the report itself, it may very well be possible.
US sponsored terror squads did commit such atrocities in El Salvador, Honduras and Nicaragua (Contra attacks on civilians). It was taught at the School of Americas and that material goes back to old Nazi manuals. For those not in the know, the USA recruited thousands of Nazi military, especially those working in the extermination camps, in order to fight the “Communist threat” in Europe (Operation Gladio). Nowadays, it’s “containing Russia” in order to drive a wedge between Russia and Europe and ram through the TTIP “free trade” agreement, which will effectively turn Europe into an appendix of the Empire.
So there is a long and bloody history of the USA committing acts of state terrorism or have proxies commit these crimes when it serves “national interest”.
On the other hand, however, it may as well be black propaganda designed to create more panic amongst the remaining ethnic Russians so they all cross the Russian border and put additional pressure on Russia.
At some point Putin may feel obliged to intervene, then of course he would be branded an aggressor and isolated from the “international community”, which is Newspeak for all the US-client states. If that doesn’t work, it could still erode his popularity until another Maidan, this time on the Red Square, will sweep him away. Notice all the background noise from frothing trolls trying to incite emotional responses by painting Putin weak and subservient to the West. This may be an indicator for what the West actually wants to accomplish.
But then, Sun Tzu’s “Art of War” advices not to do what the enemy expects one to do ;-).
B.
Saker,
keep posting. Firstly, because in the last century we have known of too many things that were “too far” and nobody dared to speak about them; in the end they were proven right.
Secondly because the “system” has no such worries. They pass every sort of lies unashamed, we are already a minority and if we mean to convince someone we cannot afford to be overcautious.
Third, if the report proves uncorrect, there will always be the time and way to correct it. This is how honest people behave.
Keep up the good work.
Rockerduck
Torture, rape is the norm during civil war. During the height of the Shia, Sunni civil war in Iraq power tools were commonly used. This is the time when sadistic psychopaths get paid and praised to do what they enjoy.
The junta’s role model is Hitler
Keep publishing. People can make up their own minds. Responsible adults don’t decide on any issue based on a single set of data. They accumulate data from a multitude of sources and discriminate between them using their savvy. So, safe to post info as you get it. It is you that is taking the risk and not posing any risk for us.
If people think it’s “too far” well they can judge you on a multitude of your reports rather than on one in the manner I have suggested which I feel is the usual reasoning adult way to do things and not censor or become a journo needing three sources.
By the way few journos seem to be doing this anymore. There was a scandalous report in BBC Online yesterday on the helicopter downed. The “reporter”, David Stern (based in Kiev) said blitheyl, ‘Maybe Moscow asked them to do it.’ This is the low standard of so-called journalism now.
May the heroes of Novorossiya prevail! :-)
Do just what you did. If after several reports from this individual (who is arguably one of the 10 most important individuals in the resistance) you are finding problems with his veracity, then don’t use him anymore.
Speaking of Operation Gladio, there is very comprehensive BBC documentary from 1992 on Youtube. All three parts for the price of one video (2 hours 25 minutes). Quality is a bit lacking, but the content is truly worth it:
Operation Gladio – BBC documentary
B.
Dear Bakunin, who posted above.
I am a Novorossiya supporter and strong admirer of Putin, whom I consider the greatest world leader since Winston Churchill. Yet, I myself have commented on this blog about the change in Putin since his acceptance of Crimea. A man of Putin’s integrity would not desert Novorossiya, as he appears to have done, unless he were threatened with consequences greater than we can imagine. There is, of course, always the hope he has an ultimate strategy. But honestly, I’ve lost faith. So am I one of your “frothing trolls” to have said Putin seems weak, or that he may have been compromised by threats from the West? What exactly do you mean by “frothing troll”? And who, exactly, are you? Maybe you’re trying to accomplish something noble, and I’ve missed the point. If so, please kindly clarify. Your understanding may be very important.
@ Another Norwegian said… 25 June, 2014 15:54
> Do the Poles really think the population of France, Norway, Holland, Belgium, Denmark, GB, Germany and the other NATO members will continue to have sympathy for the Poles,(…)
No, Poles do not have illusions.
> Unless the Poles clean up this mess themselves, by kicking out their current leaders,
Good advice. Norway has corrupted Minister of Fisheries. Her(?) family is in Board of Directors of many firms breeding toxic salmon.
Unless the Norwegians clean up this mess themselves, by kicking out their current leaders, whole Europe will be poisoned with highly toxic salmon from Norway.
Go for it, shine as example to others, wise man.
On 25 June, 2014 20:41, Anonymous wrote:
Dear Bakunin, who posted above.
[…]
But honestly, I’ve lost faith. So am I one of your “frothing trolls” to have said Putin seems weak, or that he may have been compromised by threats from the West?
I *did not* write that all people who become impatient or feel disappointed are automatically trolls.
Stating one’s opinion as an irrefutable fact using provocative and inflammatory language, resorting to sidetracking, strawmen and ad-hominem attacks with the only goal of provocation, rather than leading a dialogue would be trolling.
It was precisely *that subset* of comments I was referring to.
What exactly do you mean by “frothing troll”?
As in “frothing at the mouth”, someone whose writing style is much like someone boiling with rage. If you need live examples, feel free to visit RT’s comment section below any article dealing with Ukraine or NATO. In any case, I believe that is deliberately done in order to both intimidate and provoke unconsidered reactions.
And who, exactly, are you?
It does not matter who I am.
Maybe you’re trying to accomplish something noble, and I’ve missed the point.
Most likely you just misinterpreted my statement and saw something in it that wasn’t there.
B.
Dear Bakunin,
Great! I understand. Thanks very much for clarifying. I had thought you meant anyone who expressed concern that Putin has become weak was a “frothing troll”. My assumption seems almost funny now. Clearly you didn’t mean that.
Otherwise, I agreed with your original comment.
In this day and age lies are exposed rapidly. The truth doesn’t need censorship to be true. It stand on itself, its own two feet. We should remain vigilant and wide awake, for sure, but in this fog of war we untie through reaching out, not clamping up.
On 25 June, 2014 22:58 Anonymous said…
I had thought you meant anyone who expressed concern that Putin has become weak was a “frothing troll”. My assumption seems almost funny now. Clearly you didn’t mean that.
No, that would be stifling a discussion, because there are legitimate concerns. Time will tell who was right and who not and what the factors were that led to the actual outcome ;-).
But to provide some background: Comment sections of blogs have become battlegrounds for setting agendas in order to manipulate public opinion. Glenn Greenwald wrote an article about it in February using material from Edward Snowden to make his case:
Among the core self-identified purposes of JTRIG are two tactics: (1) to inject all sorts of false material onto the internet in order to destroy the reputation of its targets; and (2) to use social sciences and other techniques to manipulate online discourse and activism to generate outcomes it considers desirable. To see how extremist these programs are, just consider the tactics they boast of using to achieve those ends: “false flag operations” (posting material to the internet and falsely attributing it to someone else), fake victim blog posts (pretending to be a victim of the individual whose reputation they want to destroy), and posting “negative information” on various forums.
How Covert Agents Infiltrate the Internet to Manipulate, Deceive, and Destroy Reputations
B.
“Norway has corrupted Minister of Fisheries. Her(?) family is in Board of Directors of many firms breeding toxic salmon.”
There’s no Salmon alliance, forcing Poles to eat toxic Salmon, and the minister you are referring to, is gone already.
My point still stands though. The Poles themselves need to expose what their government have done, and still do in the Ukraine.
Even with the support of the USA, trying to trick fellow NATO members into a conflict with Russia, is not going to go down well with the rest of NATO.
Years before the Ukraine crisis, NATO officers were discussing if accepting some of the E-European nations into NATO was a mistake, as they were afraid the E-Europeans would use their membership to get even with Russia.
Credit goes to the Estonians though, as they at least tried to expose that it was the (Polish trained) Maidan that shot their own.
Dear Bakunin,
Point taken. Thanks for the link. It’s always good to remember our larger audience.
I believe you alluded to the poor quality of some of the comments on rt.com. I, for one, am effectively blocked from commenting on that site. They require sending a confirmation email, and though they keep saying the email was successfully sent, I never receive it in my spam folder. Many of the commenters sound as if English is their second language. It makes me wonder whether everyone in the US is blocked from commenting on rt.com.