Well, I am still running around, but while in the car I watched some rather interesting shows on Russian TV including one called “Politics with Peter Tolstoi” who had a bunch of interesting guests talking about the issue of MH17 shot down over Novorussia. Here again, I got very little time, are some bullet-points of some of what they said:
1) MH17 was most likely not shot down by a Buk but by an R-60M air-to-air missile shot from a Ukie Su-25 which has a non-pressurized cockpit (being a close air support aircraft) but whose engines can easily bring him that high up and whose pilot can breathe oxygen through a mask. At such altitudes, however, the Su-25 is rather slow, but that lack of speed is easily compensated by the speed of the R-60M air-to-air missile whose ideal engagement distant is 3-5km which is *exactly* how far the Su-25 was from MH17. The main evidence that it was an R-60M missile which hit MH17 is in the radar signal which shows that the aircraft was not ripped into shreds as would be the case with the massive warhead of the Buk SAM, and the fact that even on the ground the body of the plane does not appear to be shredded the way a Buk warhead would.
2) The reason why the Ukie SBU immediately seized the recording of the conversations between the Kiev ATC and MH17 is because the so-called “black boxes” ended up in Resistance hands. The reason why Holland agreed to have the British “decode” these recorders was because they were told so by the USA. The Brits will now let the NSA falsify the data and that falsification will be coordinated with the SBU in Kiev which will eventually release the recordings who will, surprise surprise, full “confirm” the “authenticity” of the NSA-doctored recordings from the UK. Formally, it will be the Dutch which will announce it all in order to better hide the US/UK role in all this.
3) Besides the Russians and the Americans, the Europeans also know what happened (I can personally confirm that I know for a fact that several European countries have their own monitoring systems which observe everything West of the Urals. The Saker)
4) Several guests said that they believed that since the MH17 false flag is turning into a flop, the next step will be to blow up a Ukie nuclear plant and blame Russia.
5) Banderastan has apparently signed 8 agreements with NATO to hold joint exercises in the Ukraine. Most of them are scheduled for September 1st, the date at which Poroshenko has promised to be finished with the repression of the Donbass.
6) One guest declared that he has it from a very solid source in the USA that MH17 was planned by the USA and that the Ukies botched the execution. The plan was for the aircraft to fall into the Rostov region of Russia.
7) One idea which was floated around again is this: to declare that unless the atrocities in the Donbass stop, Russia will recognize the Donetsk and Lugansk Republics. The idea here is to say that IF these republics are recognized, then Russia could then do the same as in Abkhazia and South Ossetia i.e., send in as many military forces as needed to stop the aggression. In terms of international law, this would not be the same as breaching the borders of the Ukraine. Besides, it would mean to exactly the same for Novorussia as the US/NATO are officially doing for the Wahabi insurgency in Syria or what the US did in Kosovo.
8) There was a consensus amongst the guests that future sanctions against Russia are absolutely inevitable simply because the USA is dead set on this idea. However, the Russians are also sure that these sanction won’t bite much and that as long as Russia does not give the US a reason for force the EU to cut itself off the Russian energy supply no real sanctions will be applied.
9) All the guests agreed that Russian should continue to provide covert military and over political aid to Novorussia.
In other news tonight, Russian sources are reporting at least two major defeats for the Ukie forces including one near the town of Georgievka near the Lugansk Airport (still held by the Ukies, but surrounded) were the Ukies lost 30 soliders and several armored vehicles. The Ukie death squad “Donbass” (which is the past had already been completely wiped out twice) is again surrounded near Donetsk.
That’s it Just wanted to update you. Now I got to hit the road again.
See you all later.
The Saker
p2. Below is an example of a report concerning possible implications of the Dutch and Australian deployments:
“Already fully committed to Obama’s aggressive US military build-up in Asia against China, the Abbott government, with the complete backing of the entire Australian establishment, is functioning as point man for the US in its provocative moves against Russia in Ukraine…. Canberra’s aggressive campaign has taken place in the closest collaboration with Washington.
The most sinister aspect of the international security force being prepared for Ukraine is that it provides a stalking horse for a US-led military intervention. The contingent will undoubtedly contain intelligence and other operatives who can be relied on to instigate a provocation to provide the pretext for a much larger armed force…… In comments reported in the Sydney Morning Herald yesterday, Peter Jennings, executive director of the government-funded Australian Strategic Policy Institute, hinted at just such a scenario when he argued that any AFP contingent had to have military back-up. Whatever the make-up, he said, Australia would “have to be prepared to take casualties.” Of course, any casualties would immediately be exploited to mount a ferocious propaganda campaign demanding military action.
The US and its allies have already transformed Ukraine into a dangerous flashpoint for war with Russia. The dispatch of police and troops to the MH17 crash site provides one more potential trigger for just such a conflict.” (Provocative Australian-Dutch push for security forces at MH17 crash site, By Peter Symonds, WSWS, 26 July 2014)
But this is to be expected as Australia is an extension/partner of the U.S./NATO/Israel alliance.
From TR
@ The Saker,
Regarding your 1), I have another proposal which came to me with eyewitness saying he saw two planes falling, observing on photos of the crash site there was an engine quite different (and smaller) from a 777’s, and a few other info.
The Ukies wanted to crash the 772 making it plausible that it would have been shot by separatists; falling in their lands (good occasion to hold this part of their territory) prealably burnt by the blow of the nearly full tanks, to let as few clues as possible.
As the 772’s route was too South, two of their SU-25 forced the 772 to change their route, then went down to let the BUK fire (and because they cannot hold a long stay so high). The BUK missile hit the 772 but far from fuel tanks so that no explosion could be expected before the crash. Therefore one of the SU-25 pilots decided to finish the job, approached and shot a missile of his own; meanwhile in the BUK launcher, they had the same idea and launched a missile, which instead of hitting the Boeing, hit the SU-25 which took fire and crashed on the same site as the 772.
Of course the Russians know all of this, let the US and slave-countries go deeper in their lies and ridicule themselves, they can even let the black boxes be modified, as they have the best of proof : one of the SU-25 which chased the B777… As they are very kind they gave little clues of the fact they knew all this (description of the SU-25s routes, plural to missiles missing on the carrier, etc) but not too many… If the US were safe of being governed by totally mad people, it would be quite funny but one cannot be too optimistic.
What is sure is Chinese, Indian, Arab etc opinions, which are not as drown under this kind of propaganda, will “appreciate” the US/RF “debate”.
Do CDN, TTG and others think this hypothesis plausible?
About your 4), I fear next step in Ukie folly may be whether killing Dutch or Aussie observers as already read here, whether use white phosphorus on Eastern civilians as they have already announced two or three years ago in their own style (“we have found that the terrorists were to use white phosphorus against their own people in order to pretend we have done it but when it happens, we will give the proofs it is them”).
TR
Anonymous said…26 July, 2014 08:50
“A BUK missile ripping a 777 apart.” is total nonsense…Got it? Saker and all the other people here, you need to stick to the facts and some common sense to retain credibility. Judging from the pictures posted on the internet, it does seem very likely that MH17 was hit by shrapnel. It has also been claimed that a BUK missile causes very different patterns of shrapnel damage as compared to an air-to-air missile, and that the patterns appearing on the aircraft parts are consistent with a BUK missile. Conclusion: The investigation will probably come to the result that it was a BUK missile that brought down MH17. This finding will be difficult or impossible to refute. That’s what this blog and all other friends of Russia need to be prepared for. Forcefully bringing any other theories to the fore only has the potential of damaging the cause. As of yesterday, RT carried a commentary arguing convincingly, in my opinion, that MH17, if shot down by the rebels, was legal as a form of collateral damage in a civil war situation provided that it was not intentional. As the shoot-down most probably was not intentional such a position is much more defensible than trying to formulate grand theories that most likely will fall apart like a house of cards. If, but only if, proof appears that the Ukies did it, then such a finding can still be exploited to the fullest.”
These ZPC/NWO web sayanim come up with all sorts of clever ways to sell their propaganda. The message being sold in all that “authoritative” methane is that it was a Buk missile that brought down the airliner. Any evidence of an aircraft launched missile has to be discredited because the ZPC/NWO will not be able to manipulate that evidence to exonerate themselves. There is no way to avoid taking the rap once it’s shown it was aircraft attack that shot down the airliner.
вот так
Anonymous said…26 July, 2014 06:58
“Seriously, just because a plan is called a Flying Fortress doesn’t mean it is. For its era, it was big, but a B17 was 74 feet long and weighed around 12 tons.
A B777 is 209 feet long and weighs over 120 tons. 3 times longer and 10 times the weight.
Try using Wiki sometime.”
Nice try ZPC’er, but I’ve found that most people I’ve come across on the web who begin a comment with “seriously” are American teenagers who get their info from wikipedia. In other words, a dead give-away of adolescent trolling. Now run along and play with your wikipedia and stop pestering the adults. :D
The photos show the sort of structural damage that happens to airframes from even small explosive charges. The size of the aircraft depicted don’t matter in that respect, as the photo of the KAL airliner shot down by an R60 clearly shows. If the missile had exploded near the wing root, instead of near the tip, it, and wind resistance, would have taken the wing off at the root.
That’s two of the things since yesterday on one thread. These ZPC trolls really don’t like people showing evidence a junta fighter attacked the Malaysian airliner, do they?
вот так
Yes I’m sure
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vol_5017_Air_Alg%C3%A9rie
yes I know, wikipedia, but official enough to give at least the plane type.
Plan not just for downing of aircraft in cauldron, for Junta forces to be able to assist trapped forces there.
But to get opposition labelled terrorists, and have NATO go in, to set up a ‘temporary’ (permanent) camp right there next to the border, so that they could seal the border permanently. This is actually a central planning feature, permanent sealing of border. (or permeable only for the right people)
Andrew @ 26 July, 2014 13:09
In the previous entry the logical flow was key, the rhetorical question an illumination of the logical flow.
Speculation is an attempt to bridge doubt, as well in such matters normally being markers of discomfort and impatience – major strategic errors.
However doubt is a very powerful tool in intelligence.
The opponents have been speculating – some say its in their DNA, and long may they continue.
Why join in their activities in this particular instance?
You may be of the view that increasing the noise/signal ratio is presently appropriate, and much of this blog does perform that function conciously and/or unconsciously.
Others are of the present view that silence is golden and patience is a virtue.
Once again re capabilities of the SU-25:
The Ukraine converted some of their SU-25’s to SU-25M1, which has a ceiling of 10,000 meters.
From Wikipedia: Ukrainian Air Force modernized two types of the Su-25, one of them is Su-25M1 and Su-25UBM1.[76]
From Wikipedia: “2 Su-25 and 1 Su-25M1 were shot down in clashes in southeast
Ukraine. One damaged and captured by pro-Russian forces.[5] “
Su-25 M1 Frogfoot Attack aircraft
http://www.redstar.gr/Foto_red/Eng/Aircraft/Su_25M1.html
Service ceiling: meters 5.000-10.000
As for the R-60 missile, Wikipedia says:
According to Russian sources,[which?] practical engagement range is about 4,000 m (4,400 yd), although “brochure range” is 8 km (5.0 mi) at high altitude
So it is quite possible a Ukraine SU-25M1 or other variant attacked MH17 with a R60 missile, as the Russians suggest.
You said: “Nice try ZPC’er, but I’ve found that most people I’ve come across on the web who begin a comment with “seriously” are American teenagers who get their info from wikipedia. In other words, a dead give-away of adolescent trolling. Now run along and play with your wikipedia and stop pestering the adults. :D”
Yes, indeed, you just showed quite a lot.
The comment was made to a specific mention of damage to a B17 – when in reality a B17 is nothing like a 777. The materials are vastly different, the structure is vastly different, the sizes, speeds, altitudes are all vastly different.
So, since you cannot seem to understand English, I suggest to return to ESL school.
You then proceeded to compound immaturity with additional ignorance by saying: “The photos show the sort of structural damage that happens to airframes from even small explosive charges. The size of the aircraft depicted don’t matter in that respect, as the photo of the KAL airliner shot down by an R60 clearly shows. If the missile had exploded near the wing root, instead of near the tip, it, and wind resistance, would have taken the wing off at the root.”
Sure, a 1 ounce explosive charge in the exact right spot can do all sorts of damage. Then again, so can a fingernail. Unfortunately your own idiocy has failed to note that the aircraft was NOT struck directly by any explosives. It was shrapnel. So, during your ESL sessions, I also recommend taking some debate and basic logic classes.
Try to follow how adults think: a proposition is made which is believed to be false. The falsity is explained by a specific example. If said example is incorrect, then normally a counter example is used. Small children, however, tend to respond first with an insult.
Nice to know who is what.
Grieved,
It’s a little late in the game but somehow I missed your comment up above and I just wanted to thank you for it bc it’s truly beautiful, and quite profound.
Grieved@26 July, 2014 02:30
“The greatest weapon being deployed in this theater, in my estimation – and I’m not sure I can explain why I think this – is Russia’s meticulous adherence to the law and the courtesy of discourse, and its rigorous documentation of all that passes, whether seemingly good or bad.”
Vladimir Putin knows who emptied the cookie jar. The evil culprits have no choice but to attempt to stock up on emperor’s clothes. The fact phobic MSM charade testifies to the empire’s impotence. Putin has time on his side. Time flies, aeroplanes crash..
(14:51) The Australian Federal Police to be deployed to the crash site will be unarmed and without a military escort. This will be a professional, forensic operation that represents no threat to the separatists or anybody else. There is a lot of ambivalence in Australia about the close relationship with the US. It would be a mistake to view Australia as merely an appendage of the US or an extension of Nato.