by Peter Koenig for the Saker blog
Why this title? – Because Greece doesn’t have to continue playing the card of the victim, nor being masochist. Greece seems to suffer under the Stockholm Syndrome – she is in love with her hangman. Greece could change this. Exit the prison, exit the EU and exit the euro. Greece could return to her sovereign national currency, her own sovereign central bank, make her own monetary policy and implements it with a sovereign public banking system that works solely for the Greek economy. Within less than 10 years Greece would have recovered and would even be able to pay back some of her illegally begotten debt.
Although, here it must be added, according to international law, most of Greece’s debt was imposed by the troika under illegal circumstances. It’s also called “odious debt”, the description of which reads “In international law, odious debt, also known as illegitimate debt, is a legal doctrine that holds that the national debt incurred by a regime for purposes that do not serve the best interest of the nation, should not be enforceable. Such debts are, thus, considered by this doctrine to be personal debts of the regime that incurred them and not debts of the state.” This doctrine is complemented by a similar one inscribed in the charter of the IMF that says that the IMF shall not make any loans to a country in distress, that will unlikely be able to reimbursed the debt and pay the debt service.
——
There is not a day that goes by without Greece making the headlines as being abused by the troika (IMF, European Central Bank – ECB and the unelected European Commission – EC) and by the Germans. Here are three of the latest examples, but there are many more – “Destroying Greek, Plundering Greece. The Latest Update” (by Leonidas Vatikiotis); “Austerity: Public Hospital Halts Chemotherapy, turns away Cancer Patients, because ‘Budget Exceeded’”; and “Greece Crisis: Cancer Patients Suffer as Health System Fails” (Giorgos Christides).
Already years ago, The Lancet reported an increase in Greek suicide rates and child mortality. The misery is indeed real and mounting every day. The western imposed atrocities also abound on a daily basis. Salary cuts – and at least five pensions reductions since 2010, an almost completely dismantled social safety net. Those who depend on it are generally poor. More than 4 million people out of a population of 11 million live at or under the poverty line; 15% live in absolute and abject poverty. About 28% of children live in absolute poverty, meaning malnutrition and diseases, stunting growth and brain development. At least a generation of Greek may be in part intellectually challenged, possibly implying health hazards and restricting economic development over the next 20-some years. Unemployment is hovering around 25% – 30%, with close to 50% for youth (18-35 years). The outlook is grim and promises to become even grimmer.
Public hospitals and schools are either privatized or closed because of lack of budget. Medication is scarce, as part of imposed import restrictions, imposed by Greece’s lovely European neighbors and allies or overseas masters. Specialized and expensive medication, for example cancer medicine, are especially scarce. People die from flu, from colds, from pneumonia – even intestinal diseases that could normally be healed as a matter of routine, but there are not enough antibiotics available. Austerity – budget cuts. Thanks to the brothers from Europe – and again their masters form overseas.
Greece has absolutely no control over her budget anymore. She had to sign this responsibility over to Brussels for what? – another ‘rescue package’ – what else. In September 2016, the Greek Parliament had to approve hurriedly, in less than a week’s time, a 2000-page text of legislation, drafted by Brussels in English, unreadable in this short time for most of the Greek Parliamentarians, with which the Greek Parliament signed away not only all of the publicly owned enterprises and infrastructure to the “European Stability Mechanism” (ESM) for 99 years, during which period all of it may be offered to fire sale prices for privatization, or outright demolition; but, as if this was not enough, the Parliament also signed away its sovereign authority over the Greek budget to Brussels.
Can you imagine? This in the 21st Century. It has not happened since in 1933 the Bundestag, the German Parliament, signed over all decision-making power to the “Führer” – Mr. Adolf Hitler. This is outright EU imposed fascism. The world watches silently – and in full complicity – the literal dismantling of a sovereign country, with the esclavisation and impoverishment of the population that goes with it.
This, though, is not news. It’s rather well-known. It has been written about umpteen times, by umpteen journalists and writers, to greater or lesser extent criticizing the troika, the Greek government, the EC / IMF / BCE imposed austerity, as all three know very well that austerity does not work, nowhere. Never did.
So, why repeat it here, in yet another article? – Because it must be said again and again, and repeated ever so often, until the Greek governing body listens. Greece could stop this bloodletting and misery for the majority of her people almost instantly – by quitting the euro, and by quitting the European Union. She would not be left alone. Acts of Solidarity would come from Asia, Latin America and even Africa. Such offers were already made in 2014 and 2015. But they were not heeded, since the Greek elite wants to part of the EU elite, rubbing elbows, being part of this nefarious club. Many pictures, too many, have been circulating of Mr. Tsipras and his buddies laughing and cajoling with the Lagarde’s and the Junker’s of this world.
Greece could have exited the EU and Eurozone from day one – with the first rescue package in 2010. But she didn’t, for whatever reason. Maybe personal threats to the Tsipras family and Government and / or the “left-wing” Syriza party? – We don’t know, but all is possible in a western civilization where opponents of the Master hegemon in Washington and his dark handlers, are simply assassinated. John Perkins, explains clearly how this works in his bestseller “Confessions of an Economic Hitman”.
But what about integrity of the leaders, of the party, their obligation to the Greek people? Integrity and support foremost to the average Greek, not the Greek elite which way before the troika-Germany onslaught, transferred billions of their euro holdings to Switzerland and other western safe havens. The Tsipras Government’s duty to the vast majority of Greek, who have to survive from their daily work and miserable pensions, has been betrayed. For these people integrity would have called for quitting the Eurozone and the EU.
Why holding on to a European Union that only despises Greece by its non-action, by watching passively over the destruction of their brother? There are no trustworthy allies in the EU. They are all beholden to Brussels and to Washington. There are only greedy enemies. Greece has been singled out as an example for worse to come. Other mostly southern EU countries that were given the insulting name, PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain), would be treated equally, i.e. sucked into oblivion – if they would dare to resist the systematic milking by the western financial system.
This EU – euro system cannot be reformed. And since abolishment or the simple collapse which is clearly written on the wall, is being extended at all cost, including the blood and lives of the Greek population, there is only ONE WAY for Greece to safe itself – LEAVE THE EURO – LEAVE THE EU.
Greece’s debt today (January 2018) is € 320.2 billion, or 190.4% of GDP (€ 168.2 billion) – and steadily mounting – with an annual interest of € 17.6 billion, increasing at the rate of € 557 per second (€ 48.1 million per day) – See the Greek Debt Clock: https://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/greece . So, there is no relief in sight, no matter what western pundits and the IMF are saying. All lies, as is usual in the western world. Greece will never get out of her mountain of debt, while being a member of the euro-zone and the EU.
Greece – wake up, you have the opportunity to walk out of the EU and save the lives of more than half of your population, who are at risk of famine and deadly diseases – Mr. Tsipras and Co. no matter what lengthy theories and economic projections the elite economists who want to save their billions of euros hidden in safe havens, will present to you – it is your duty, your civil obligation as an elected official, elected by the people, to honor the people’s lively interests and to exit this horrendous repressive and abusive club, called European Union.
Greece – you must regain your sovereignty.
Leaving the EU and the euro does not mean you are leaving Europe. Greece, as every pupil knows, is geographically anchored in Europe. Greece is one of the most dramatically beautiful southern European countries and will continue to be visited by millions of tourists from around the world, and naturally from Europe. Other nations will want to trade and deal with Greece and her charming, friendly and smiling people. Friendliness and beauty is one of the key trademarks of Greece. Greece will gain even more respect for standing up for herself.
It’s late – but never too late. Take back your local autonomous currency, take control of your economy through local public banking with low or no interests to stimulate yours – the Greek economy – not the German, not the European economy, but the Greek national economy. Within less than 10 years Greece would have recovered from the current depression. Others have done it, like Argentina, or even Germany, especially after WWII. You will not be left alone. Support, if needed, will be there, particularly from the East, from where the future is. Think of China’s One Belt Initiative (OBI) – which already is linked up with Greece through the Greek port of Piraeus. OBI is a multi-trillion-euro economic development program that will encompass China, Russia, Eurasia, eventually all the way to the western rim of Europe, securing jobs, scientific and cultural development, transcontinental land-and sea transport, trading and more – over the next few hundred years. The west is gone; passé. It’s greed and war-driven economy is slowly but surely committing suicide.
If Greece is not seizing this last-ditch opportunity to exit the euro and to exit the EU, to literally safe her people’s skin, one might legitimately ask, has Greece become a convenient victim, subservient to its own elite and the Brussels-Washington masters, or is she simply masochistically enjoying her misery, borne, incidentally, by 80% of her population?
Peter Koenig is an economist and geopolitical analyst. He is also a former World Bank staff and worked extensively around the world in the fields of environment and water resources. He lectures at universities in the US, Europe and South America. He writes regularly for Global Research, ICH, RT, Sputnik, PressTV, The 21st Century (China), TeleSUR, The Vineyard of The Saker Blog, and other internet sites. He is the author of Implosion – An Economic Thriller about War, Environmental Destruction and Corporate Greed – fiction based on facts and on 30 years of World Bank experience around the globe. He is also a co-author of The World Order and Revolution! – Essays from the Resistance.
Hey,
Where there’s a billion to be made, or a country to bleed dry…. What’s the problem?
It’s almost like some alien/foreign force has taken over governments.
What the hell is the ordinary Greek (insert any country here ____________).
Durruti,
You’re correct, that alien force is the last of the Serpent Races to invade earth and through Mercantilism/Liberalism challenge the Feudal Trinity of the Naga Serpent led Alliance.
The same Alliance that nAto refers to, who’s symbol is a Death Star (two power circles united with a cross in the middle meaning they’re betraying earth and its inhabitants, made out of iron and hence symbolize modernity/technology/synthetics/singularity merging of Man and Machine and hence an alternative creation to the Creator JHVH).
http://dixi-car.pl/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Siedziba-NATO-Bruksela.jpg
Fine emotional article and appeal by Peter Koenig.
Koenig’s concluding question, “If Greece is not seizing this last-ditch opportunity to exit the euro and to exit the EU, to literally safe her people’s skin, one might legitimately ask, has Greece become a convenient victim, subservient to its own elite and the Brussels-Washington masters, or is she simply masochistically enjoying her misery, borne, incidentally, by 80% of her population?” – is relevant in many Nations, including my United States of America.
In my America:
There exist more than 3 million homeless.
Whole cities and industrial centers have been destroyed by the Zionist Imperialist Neo-Con Wall Street Oligarchs. Detroit, Camden, Milwaukee, Buffalo, Detroit, the Appalachians, come first to mind. Southern California (California is our wealthiest and most populous state), is burning down, because the Oligarchs diverted the water supply, and destroyed the water table (thereby slowly converting half the state into a desert).
In America, Debt, unemployment, illiteracy, are high and rising. America operates the largest Prison (Gulag), System in the world, and half the budget is taken by the Military Financial Complex. And our nation hosts 16 Secret Agencies, who, along with our politicians, are Owned (in the Brooklyn sense), by foreign Terrorist Oligarchs, who overthrew our Republic on November 22, 1963.
Greeks gave birth to Europe:
The poor Greeks. Is there, Are there, no Leonidas amongst the people. Are there no local Durruti’s to restore Greece to its Citizens? Is courage all gone? And Honor lost? Love for one’s people nonexistent?
Time for our brother and sister peoples, American and Greek, to assemble at Thermopylae, and Lexington and Concord.
Peter Koenig, Jean Paul Marat from his bathtub:
“Greece – you must regain your sovereignty.” And America too.
Koenig, you ruined my evening – with a great essay.
God Bless!
Durruti
I can only second everything you said, and champion Peter Koenig’s essay.
This call must be made over and again, until the people remember they themselves can change their nations, and they are the only ones who want to.
Let’s see now. A massive government bureaucracy with cushy overpaid make-believe jobs-for-the-boys with unsustainably generous early retirement payments. A spendthrift and under-productive economy with a populace, content to vote crooks into office in return for freebies, bribes for votes and all kinds of unearned largess. Deficits for ever. Corruption at the very heart. Living beyond any hope of affording what is being consumed. That was Greece for a prolonged period of time- corruption and immorality from the government and right through on down the society, top to bottom. Now comes the consequence and it is a really big nasty painfuil consequence. Things are tough now and about to get much worse. Surprised? Shouldn’t be. There is no free lunch in this world.
Given the dishonest crookery of the Greek government and so many of the people involved with it, is it any wonder that a bigger, far superior band of professional thieves and crooks took advantage of the situation? Of course not. They saw a pack of dishonest amateurs, acted accordingly and took them. This is not going to be the only state to fall into financial ruin- merely the first one of an avalanche.
What can ordinary Greeks do about this? Well, they’ll need to learn from the experience. Perhaps they’ll come to understand the no-one can live beyond their means indefinitely, that free stuff offered by generous politicians is not free, that government is necessarily dishonest and over time it just gets worse, that government can’t provide the solutions to the personal problems and challenges one faces in life, that there is no right to anything when someone else is forced to provide it against their own best interests… Then, perhaps, the people will rise up and get rid of the EU, the Euro, NATO, their govt with its huge loans and start out again but this time each living within his or her means. Perhaps. Maybe. Somehow I doubt it though. Mostly they are little more than eaters, cheaters and followers. So, until the culture alters the future looks grim for all the Greeks, guilty and innocent alike. It is horrible to see something as this, so totally avoidable, occur.
lol, … you must work in finance. am i right?
Anyone with money, and the German bankers getting rich from this certainly qualifies, can hire PR firms to spread their message on social media and comment boards. We even saw this week that the US military is putting out a request for proposals to acquire bots to do the work for them without even having to create a job for a real person.
“Given the dishonest crookery of the Greek government and so many of the people involved with it, is it any wonder that a bigger, far superior band of professional thieves and crooks took advantage of the situation?”
At bottom, the question above is on point. The only thing in need of honest clarification here is that the bigger, far superior band of thieves and crooks already was involved with the political class in Greece, the coming bigwigs of Syriza being no exceptions whatsoever. Siotu makes it sound as if the IMF/EU filth saw a “problem” with massive fraud, most notably tax evasion, which is, ahem, quite ridiculous. IMF is aptly known as the Institution for Misery and Famine, and it doesn’t hesitate to show its credentials.
As regards the Greek majority population, what Syriza pretended to aim for was a wet dream of the entire Greek middle class: EU without austerity. The PR stunt worked, but of course reality turned out to be a different matter. Still, Tsipras and Varoufakis — unless the situation becomes absolutely intolerable — continue to enjoy their subjects’ respect for keeping Greece “inside Europe”, which translates precisely to “EU, the Euro, and NATO”. Case in point: As Libya was being physically destroyed by NATO, there was absolutely not a murmur to be heard from any of the riots inside Greece against the use of the air base in Crete for the bombing campaigns. First World chauvinism is great, but as Greece shows, the imperialists are not in the mood for any compromises. Serves Syriza and its deluded electorate right.
Exactly, guys like Varoufakis think that they can change the Globalist system, which they work for. Makes me laugh, it’s so sad.
the most fundamental problem is (as Michael Lewis said in his book Boomerang) – Greeks don’t trust other Greeks. Therefore there is no hope to meaningfully aggregate to solve all the problems they face.
I could not believe what I read in that book so I asked my Greek friend – and he said yes unfortunately that is true.
I saw very little desire to experiment and create solutions for their own real-life problems there even with Greeks educated at world’s best universities (that friend of mine has a PhD from Cambridge and his friends also). I.e. to do with energy efficiency, even growing their own food – lot of people I know there buy their vegetables at German owned supermarkets – bad quality and much more expensive than in Germany. Even if they have a nice piece of land where they could produce far superior vegetables etc for next to nothing. I once discovered a great big wall nut tree on my friends’ land – I picked all the nuts and put them in baskets for my friends to use them – all they had to do is crack them – they never did (they bought them instead). There is a culture (from what I saw) of always wanting to buy foreign stuff and always waiting for Germans/God etc to solve their problems.
Talking about being taught to wait for ‘masters’ to solve problems: Children are forced to pray before being allowed to enter PUBLIC schools (I saw it with while there many times while dropping my friends kids to school). They don’t care if parents are not religious, or if they are gypsy kids etc -everyone must pray or the gym teacher punishes them (that’s what my friends 8 year old told me).
Praying before entering public schools is way better than having to recite the Pledge of Allegiance (to the banner of the US) in school.
probably – but why not just tech children about objective reality without any forced brainwashing about glorified slavery. When I was a kid in Yugoslavia everyone was free to go church as much as they wanted but we were not forced to do anything especially worshiping imaginary masters like little obedient slaves.
Only in Greece I see youngish people (in their 20s or 30s bowing to kiss hand when they meet a priest at the airport etc).
I think my friends’ kids probably feel betrayed knowing their parents are atheists, yet they allow this to be done to their kids. No wonder they eventually grow up not to trust other Greeks.
What Greece needs is more initiative, BALLS, joining forces bravely to fight common enemy – not more slavish obedience under threats of punishment
“A spendthrift and under-productive economy with a populace, content to vote crooks into office in return for freebies, bribes for votes and all kinds of unearned largess.”
NOt sure but I think this comment implies that the Greeks are lazy sods and are responsible for their own misery. I know I have seen at least one contribution, most likely at this site, providing *actual* economic statistics that refute this complacent Northern European view of the putatively feckless Greeks, in terms of actual productivity of workers, number of vacation days, etc. etc. —all those slurs against Greeks that are not so dissimilar from traditional slurs against lazy blacks. The statistics showed that Greeks on average actually work longer hours than Germans.
Sorry I cannot cite chapter and verse. Perhaps some more knowledgeable reader can.
Katherine
the best explanation I saw was from Michael Lewis’ book the Boomerang. What they did, the Greek (also German, Irish etc) mentality – explains the whole crisis really well. And my Greek friends agreed with it
You don’t have to be reluctant to state your opinion (“NOt sure but I …”). You’re perceiving the comment the way it was intended to. Lots of MSM use this kind of stereotype to blame the Greek for their situation.
“Not sure” was not as to whether the poster’s comment referred to Greeks themselves, or to the economy.
Aren’t women usually the ones transporting hidden messages within their choice of words? If that’s the case, then read the comment again and listen to your gut-feeling. In some other thread Serbian girl already recognized those hidden messages.
Hey, Mister, hold the mansplaining right there.
You missed a nuance of my original comment.
I do not need instruction about using about my “gut” instead of my brain.
Sigh, more guys telling gals how to think–or, in this case, not to think.
When will they ever learn . . .?
Yo momma
Ever since 1821 (Greece’s independence) Greece has never been an independent country.
I am going to present couple of very interesting and current articles on the subject of “Greece’s sovereign debt”:
Read this one first:
https://jackrasmus.com/2018/01/11/still-more-austerity-imposed-in-greece/
And next this one:
https://www.globalresearch.ca/sovereign-debt-is-a-determining-factor-in-history/5622535
On the other hand I suggest this one as well:
https://www.globalresearch.ca/sellouts-in-the-room-the-greek-debt-crisis-and-syriza-betrayals/5624584
Regards
Greece is in the same boat as the rest of Europe: run by Capitalists; can only be saved by a Communist revolution, led by someone who is a true socialist — a Stalin or an Attlee. When the present pretty boys were surfed into power on a wave of popular anguish, I thought: We shall know if they are genuine if, within their first week of power, the new Greek govt will issue 3 arrest warrants:
1. A local arrest warrant for previous Greek regime who joined the EU by cooking the books.
2. An international arrest warrant for crooks from Goldman Sachs who cooked the books for them.
3. A European arrest warrant criminals who accepted Greece knowing the books were cooked.
The pretty boys did nothing. I regret the time I wasted following the antics of Tsipras and Varouflakis.
Items #1 and #2 are possible (however unlikely) but Greek sovereignty does not extend as far item #3. Those who accepted Greece into the EU, as dishonest as they may have been, are not answerable to Greece’s legal system, never were and never will be.
One major problem for Greece is that the voters want to have their cake and eat it too, so to speak. In the main they want to remain in the EU while not suffering to repay the loans that THEIR government borrowed on their behalf. That option is not available though. It has never been available. It is totally off the table, as has always been clearly enunciated by the EU.
The only alternatives then, are stay and repay or default and depart. It is clear that Greek people have considered that they would rather stay in the EU. There has been strong preference for this expressed several times over an extended period of time. OK, their choice, but it comes at a cost. It means the necessity to suffer the austerity policies, as demanded by their EU creditor. There is no getting away from that, as it has been made very clear that staying in the EU demands it. So, by staying the choice that is made is to pay. Staying puts them on the hook.
The superior way forward for Greece is to dump the Euro and depart the EU. Simultaneously it would be a good idea to default all those loans immediately. This would not be painless and would come with consequences. It would impose costs of its own and those would make life most tough indeed for some time to come. Taking that option alone would not solve anything for Greece though, not unless certain realisations throughout the public occur and some mighty big cultural changes are made (like each understanding and accepting the necessity of living within one’s means as well as understanding that there is no right to make anyone else provide you with goods and services involuntarily and against their own preferences). Else, this is just yet another iteration of the on-going cycle in the corruption and decline of Greece, as it heads ever deeper into penury and decrepitude. In the end, perhaps the Turks might end up running Greece again, or, yes, perhaps they may devolve back to some sort of communism or similar disaster.
Make no mistake Communism is a failure, as is socialism. The history conclusively demonstrates that this depraved ideology brings impoverishment, decline of living standards, violence, suffering, large scale criminality, mass murder etc etc etc. I assume, of course, that the purpose of politics and the economy is to seek the best conditions for people to live and thrive. As a vehicle to achieve this goal, communism (and socialism) are proven failures. No need to repeat the terrible errors of the past. Still, if communism is what is in store for Greece, then the suffering the people are bearing presently is merely the entre, far worse is yet to come. The descent would be total.
Tsipras and Varouflakis did not have the range of capability required to take steps the Greeks did not actually empowered them to take. They likely did not ever have the intellectual capacity or courage, let alone the physical ability, to go down the #1, #2 & #3 path, let alone dump the Euro, leave the EU and default the loans either. Even had they decided to do so, it is likely that the ensuing crisis would have had various Greeks, for example inside their own government, acting to countermand and frustrate their actions and take them down. The Greek polity was nowhere near determined to face reality and take this path.
Your comments about about com/socialism reveal very little actual knowledge. You’d benefit from talking to unbiased people, who actually lived in a soc. system. In my family, under capitalism, folks had to emigrate across the ocean to find work. Under socialism, five out of six kids attained higher education, with multiple degrees (even PhDs).
And you may give some thought to this idea: socialism in non-Soviet countries existed for 40 yrs. Do you know from history what capitalism looked like 40 yrs into its existence? Charles Dickens anyone? Would you want to live in the England of CD? And that was even at the time, when no one was trying to destroy it (like the West waged a campaign of destruction against the socialist system/countries). Capitalism evolved, and so would have socialism – if it were only left alone, and not constantly undermined.
as someone who was born in Yugoslavia and lived there until early 20s and them moved to the UK where I stayed 13 years and then 10 or so in the US – I fully agree with you. Socialism was much better in my experience overall.
R U with the Brookings Institution perchance?
The Greek government didn’t ask for loans on the behalf of the Greek citizens. They bailed out the banks (restructuring those debts) on the backs of the citizens.
Concerning your remarks on mass murder I would like to point out that the US (a country that has always been capitalist) has way more blood on its hands than many communist countries. A few years ago the US managed to have killed more people than Nazi Germany (deaths counted from 1945 and ongoing). Capitalist Pinochet, Batista, Videla and some others managed to kill their share as well (with the backing of the US). You should attempt to have a more balanced view on all political systems.
I will allow myself to comment on this as an European citizen, living here. Greece joined the EU on doctored books. This off course was found out, they promised to do the necessary reforms, but did nothing, nothing at all. Now the pay the price. Tough.
History lesson to all the hand wringing apologists, and EU haters and know nothings:
Denmark 1985 was warned, by the EU that our Government spending would bring us to bankruptcy in less than 2 decades, if we did not change course. Our then finance minister Knud Heinesen likened it such: “We are driving into the abyss, but we are doing it on 1’st class”. It Eventually it resulted in the Schlüter government introducing “Kartoffelkuren” the Potato Diet. It was the harshest slashing of the welfare system ever, and believe it was tough living (I was there, a handsome young man :)) many became unemplouyed , people had move out of their houses, ect, ect. But it did put the financial matters straight and 10 years later things had slowly picked up, and by 2004 (I think) the Danish state had no foreign debt and surplus trade.
Sweden had a similar crisis in 1997 when they devalued the Swedish krone of the same reasons as above. I am not so closely acquainted with particulars, but I do know that interest on mortages for a brief period was 35 % P.A. By 2002 the storm was over. ( The shorter period is due to the Swedish economy much stronger and larger than the Danish)
Both countries today are among the wealthiest democracies in the world.
Den Lille Abe
Sorry bear bad tidings but…….
Denmark has a government debt of around 38% of its GDP, while that of Sweden is at 42%. Seems not too bad when compared to others. Nevertheless, these are not inconsiderable amounts demanding service. Comparison with states which are insolvent or heading that way deliver a misleading picture. There are other metrics to consider for a better understanding of what is occurring.
In Denmark household debt has risen to 277% of total disposable income. It has fallen a little recently (by about 3% from 2015 to 2016). Nevertheless, in the Eurozone, Denmark household debt as a percentage of GDP is only exceeded by that of Cyprus. To give an indication about how serious this is, consider Greece at only ~70%.
For Sweden household debt has risen to 180% of total disposable income. It has doubled over the last 20 years. Presently it grows at 7% per year.
Don’t forget, bank interest rates are at all-time historical lows (negative rates even, unprecedented!). All this massive debt has to be serviced and when the interest rates rise (which they are about to do) THAT is when matters get really tough. For many, insolvency looms.
I’d not consider these statics indicate “wealthy”. Rather they indicate the courting of financial disaster.
Finally, this situation is the result of decades of profligacy. While you are correct and some tough adjustments were indeed undertaken in Sweden and Denmark, much more yet is demanded. And those adjustments will happen, one way or another.
Greece was but the first. Not all will occur in exactly the same manner, but as is well said, “All debts are realised.”
Does that mean I will have to let my racehorse, motorboat and beloved Merc go ? Joking aside, yes the rising indebtedness is a concern in both countries, however most of the debt is tied to housing. I am not certain about Denmark, but Sweden in 2016 introduced tougher rules on borrowing for housing and much tougher rules on repayment of said money, thus cutting of the unlimited credit that some had and used. Unfortunately is had a lopsided effect, effectively benefiting those that had bought at the right time and the right place. If you at the same time have not taken extra money out , its a quite solid pension.
Concerning interest well, they have to paid sure.
Siotu:
You may be right in your views; I cannot judge (although I don’t actually think you are!).
But whatever that case may be, must you take such a patronizing, superior, sarcastic tone (such as, e.g., “Sorry bear bad tidings but…….”?
It certainly suggests that your agenda is not straightforward truth seeking and idea sharing, but actually is putting down on others whose ideas do not match yours.
And makes the debate so much less edifying.
Katherine
Siotu correctly states that there’s no free lunch. Since the bankers create money out of nothing and lend it for interest, it’s them who were the beneficiaries of free lunches. When the citizens will catch up to that fraud, they may force the bankers to do some real (value adding) work.
Greece needs an October Revolution.
Not a good idea. Those who financed the October Revolution in 1917 also created the EU. Greece will require a different approach.
I remember reading about 10 years ago about Greece being like a drug addict, who knows the drugs are killing him but he refuses to stop taking them. Sad but true. They all know and complain about EU’s destruction of Greece yet they all want to send their kids to England to study at Oxford.
The self-pity of the Western middle classes is the same wherever you look. They see themselves as the wretched of the Earth, being taken advantage of by any designated internal or external enemy according to their Ziomedia outlets.
At any rate, it must be quite insulting to the Greeks when Turkey’s Erdogan is a strongman while Tsipras is a silly plaything.
Define Greece, please. Are you referring to the Greek government? To the oligarchs that seem to have a lot of power in any capitalist society? The Greek people?
What we saw in Greece is the process explained in Naomi Klien’s “The Shock Doctrine”. That is a person or party running for office under false pretenses. The current ruling party in Greece campaigned on opposing the banker’s demands, opposing austerity, and looking out for the Greek people. They’ve of course done the opposite, agreeing to all of the banker’s demands and acting as their enforcers in collecting and supplying their tribute and keeping the people under control.
Which is why its important to ask the question … to what “Greece” is the author referring?
Does he want the Greek government to do something different? Highly unlikely since they are doing exactly what they were designed to do. Does he want the Greek people to elect a different government? Again, unlikely since this was in campaign terms probably as far left as could be elected? Perhaps a mythical bunch of honest lefties who are true to their word could challenge, but then the most likely effect is to split the left’s voting power and thus elect right-wing government that gladly meets the demands of the bankers. Does he want the Greek people to revolt and overthrow this government?
These days, this is important when referring to most nations/groups. People rant about ‘America’ in the same way this writer refers to “Greece”. But, again, are they referring to the Deep State + Media + politicians alliance that holds power in DC? Are they referring to the American oligarchs who have the ability to influence that government’s decisions? Are they referring to the American military which long ago slipped the leash of civilian control? Are they referring to the American people who are powerless to change the course of their country (if nothing else, electing Trump has shown that very clearly.)
Without such clarity this is just a bunch of words. In this case, the author appears to be referring to the Greek government, which quite obviously is doing what it wants to do and what its in power to do and which has absolutly no intention of doing anything like what the writer suggests. And beyond these unrealistic dreams as to what the Greek government should be doing, the lack of clarity by the author deprives this piece of any realistic talk about how to fix a situation. Because if you don’t accurately understand and describe the situation, then there is no hope of an achievable solution.
great point
You Shouldn’t be Anonumous.
great post by the way
(Words all in caps violate the blog rules.I corrected this one.But too other long posts loaded with words in caps have been sent to Saker too decide on.To avoid that in future,don’t post words in all caps.MOD)
Historically, any sovereign default, especially where the debts are taken over by another supranational body (e.g. IMF, or EU) involves a certain % of debt forgiveness (i.e. haircut for the banks). In Greece’s case there has been NONE! No relief!! I consider what is happening to Greece cruel and unusual punishment! (Not to mention completely nonsensical to introduce austerity without debt relief which only worsens the debt-to-GDP ratio. Only an idiot like Angela Merkel could agree to such a thing..)
The second thing I wish to point out is that the Greeks are far from lazy and incompetent. They are world class in the shipping industry of which they control between 1/5 to 1/4 (globally). Tiny Greece is a shipping titan!! They are now taking over the incompetent, overleveraged German shipbuilders and are increasing their market share in this industry. The shipping industry benefits from Greek state protection. So what has Germany asked Greece to do? After stealing from the sick and the old, they now ask Greece to remove those state benefits in order to “be in line with the rest of the EU”…
Given the current rules, no taxes are collected from shipowners and most employees are foreigners. Greece could literally run 100% of world shipping without any benefit for the country. The sole beneficiaries are the shipowners – who deposit/invest their crooked gains in foreign countries, just in case.
You are correct that the shipping industry does not pay taxes in Greece. (It is literally an offshore industry) but the Greeks can still leverage it: It certainly helped Piraeus become a major maritime transport hub. Chinese company COSCO has taken over a controlling stake of the port and is building high speed rail links to connect with mainland Europe, so Greece’s role in maritime trade with Asia can only grow. The main problem is that the land routes in S.E. Europe may no longer be safe…
Peter Koening, thank you for your passionate essay.
As an Athenian living at the poverty line, I find this description of our predicament an accurate reflection of our national and individual tragedy. And yes, many of us are facing physical extinction due to to the financial hell imposed by our beloved European partners. And no, your proposed solution (exit from EU and euro, return to drachma) is not feasible. You see, as a nation we indeed are suffering under the Stockholm Syndrome – we are in love with our hangman. Europe- and euro-fascination is a very old epidemic in this country, unsure as it is of its own identity between East and West, between tradition and modernity, between Orthodoxy and western rationalism.
Most of your commenters are right about us. But they only see the financial dimension. Unhappily, things are uglier and much more complicated. If war and politics is the dialectics of will-power, we are rapidly loosing our will to fight, to resist, to say no to our tormenters. Facing a terrible unemployment (over 30%) and a sharp demographic decline (we’ll be five millions only by 2050), we are becoming a society and an economy of pensioners as a very large number of business, of families and of young people depend more and more on grandpa’s srinking pension to survive. Old people and unemployed people aren’t fighters for sure. I wish I am wrong, but on top of that repeated deep budget cuts imposed by the Germans challenge our armed forces’ ability to cover our extended land and sea borders. And all this at a historical moment that the geopolitical front seems to be moving to Balkans and Greece after the empire’s fiasco in Middle East.
Yes, we are culpable as a nation for our choice of leaders, our entry to EU and euro and our easy going political culture of no personal consequences. But mostly for our dishonesty and political naivete. As one of your commenters (Siotu at 12.54) aptly writes: “Given the dishonest crookery of the Greek government and so many of the people involved with it, is it any wonder that a bigger, far superior band of professional thieves and crooks took advantage of the situation?” No, it’s no wonder. The worst of us and the worst of you in a waltz of death and destruction.
Northern Europeans and especially Germans, politicos and common people alike, must feel very proud of their success to destroy a nation and a culture. Kudos to them. It is the second time they did this to my country. And here I disagree with you: it is to late to escape this trap. Greece is dying.
I do indeed feel a little ashamed for my rather hars and very blunt description of the Greek Tradegy. For athat please accept my apology.
I bear no ill will to the Greek people or their culture, how could I it would be self hate and for that I am not disposed. What I hope shone through my outburst was that Greek politicians which must have been aware let it happen. Not only aware, but indeed part of a larger scheme to defraud the Greek people and Greek nation. A country does not suddenly collapse, it normally takes years of corrupt politicians and inept bureaucracy, inefficient laws and a lack of any and all vision. When you are left with politicians, whose primary goal is to get reelected, then democracy has failed.
I sincerely hope your country is able to pull through the crisis, and the Greek people and nation come out stronger and more resistant on the other side.
Den Lille Abe
Greece will pull through the tragedy when the EU is either disbanded or else it breaks up. It was created by private bankers, being a copy of the US Federation. Both the US and EU have private banks run by private bankers, known as banksters. I don’t see the EU surviving for too long.
in my experience Greeks are very friendly with their friends and family – but it seems that they have completely different outlook towards other people they don’t know. I noticed in Greece (many times) while trying to cross the road on pedestrian crossing that nobody wants to stop to let you pass. If you start crossing they almost run you over and swear at you or look at you like it’s your fault . I only see such extreme duality in Greece
@Gregorius: “this country, unsure of its own identity between East and West”. Greece’s geopolitical axis is more extensive in the Eastward direction, and most extensive around “our sea” the Mediterranean — definitely not the North Atlantic. Too many Greeks have spent too much time, from my father’s generation to the present day, seeking a living in the Anglo Commonwealth — from Australia through S9outh Africa to Canada and the USA. London is only the Western outpost of Greek civilization; but its Eastern outposts lie far further, in Moscow and Vladivostok. The Eagle With Two Heads, the eagle of Peter the Great, is the eagle of Byzantium and its Graeco-Roman Christian civilization. The Greek Orthodox axis spans almost the entire length of the EurAsian land mass, from Vladivostok to Belgrade; when Tsipras turned his back on Greek Orthodox Russia he betrayed not only Greece but Serbia and Bulgaria: condemned them to be perpetual debt slaves and military playthings of the AZC in London and New York. Russia can still save Christian Greece from the godless AZC and their godless NATZO, the way it stepped in to save the Greek Orthodox Christians of Syria from NATZO’s merciless Daesh mercenaries. But the Greek people must rally and fight, the way Syrians have rallied around their leader and fought.
“God helps those who help themselves; and God help those who dont”.
@Dr. NG Maroudas: In my comment above I wasn’t refering to Greece as a historical presence, but to today Greece. So let me explain my overdramatic (I admit it) conclusion that this here Greece is dying by stating the main factors driving us towards this outcome.
1. In the eighties, our entry into EEC (now EU) combined with high-powered consumerism, foolish socialist policies, free credit cards and thoughtless loans undermined traditional Greek frugality and values and opened the door to an irresponsible “modern” political culture. Political corruption, tax avoidance and rabant selfishness, among other similar fine achievements, was the result. Modernization a la Europa proved a heavy diet for Greeks. Twenty years later, at the beginning of the new century, our entry into euro completed this hellish process and shattered any remaining resistance. Admiration and adoration of everything European was now the norm, patriotism was suspect, if not latent fascistic, and anyone defending our national identity and tratitional values was guilty of every sin in the book. Of course, we must also have in mind the role of EU propaganda and the fifth column of Greek journalists, professors, public servants and some businessmen. I believe the following article in Greek, under the title “The rise of ridiculousness”, explains much better our wonderful europeanization and globalization process: http://www.liberal.gr/arthro/186423/apopsi/arthra/i-anodos-tis-geloiotitas.html
2. In the above circumstances of unconditional and some times militant acceptance of everything European, the plunder of Greece starting at 2010 by our esteemed European partners under the robust German leadership was a really easy undertaking. In the seven years of the Greek crisis, our people, our businesses and our institutions are sadistically and systematically destroyed. In this essay, Peter Koening and his commenters do a good job to reveal the terrible truth. Soon we shall be unable to function as a society at all. To my mind come the five stages of collapse of Dmitri Orlov as I see them unfolding around me. And the question is: why? Why this furor against my country, indeed a real hate backed by a huge propaganda machine? Pure greed? But we are small fish. German geopolitical ambitions? Plausible, although ridiculous. Political incompetence?Something deeper and unconscious? You tell me.
3. So far so bad. We have the willing victim and the sadistic victimizer. Now let’s see a third factor, a crucial one. Consider please where Greece stands. An important geographic location, isn’t it? At this historical moment, especially after the American and Zionist defeat in Middle East, five major geopolitical ambitions are fighting over the body of swooned Greece: a) Germans with unclear objectives, perhaps another harebrained geopolitical dream of theirs. b) Turks looking to seize or control (“protect”) Thrace, Aegean islands, possible undersea petroleum deposits and of course Cyprus. c) Russians wanting to facilitate as far as possible their passage to Mediterranean and to their naval base in Syria. d) Americans trying to establish a new geopolitical front, a strong military point for the defence of Israel, a counterpoint to Russian influence in Balkans and a controlling presence to Russian projection of power in the Mediterranean. e) Lastly, the ubiquitous Chinese already establishing one of their “silk roads” (their OBOR project) from the port of Pireus to Central Europe. Add to these all the above plus our rapid demographic decline and the immigration streams from Asia and Africa trapped by our partners here and you have the full image: Greece in its worst moment is rapidly becoming one of the hot points of global contention. Hardly a survival promoting condition… You can see a detailed analysis of the situation in my blog (sorry, only in Greek): https://katavasis.wordpress.com/2017/06/23/a-glimpse-of-the-greek-future/
4. Into this economic, social, political and geopolitical upheaval in our hapless country we must underline the destructive role of Greek politicians of Left, Center and Right. After two major catastrophic decisions (entry into EU, entry into euro), the “leftish” government of this silly boy, Tsipras, makes a third one, maybe worse: It obviously puts all our eggs into the American basket and despite the traditional Greek russophilia (fellow co-religionists) takes an antagonistic stance against Russia. In a rapidly emerging multipolar world, it chooses unconditionally the loosing side. In view of the probable escalation of the situation, Tsipras & Co drugs us to the front line of a confrontation. For what political gains even for his party? Absolutely none. For instance, pressed by the Americans to find a compromise in the name of FYROM, in order for this statelet to become a member of NATO soon, Tsipras succeeded to wake up Greek patriotism and to unite the majority of people in a huge “no to the use of term Macedonia by Scopija”. 73% of Greek are against and a huge rally in Salonica yesterday amassed 400.000 people crying “Macedonia is Greek” (this was a non-event, according to the major media!) Another political fiasco for Tsipras. Of course, it remains to see whether this outburst of patriotism is sound and solid. Having seen the steady decline of my nation all these years, I have no real hopes, but I pray to be wrong.
“FYROM”? You promote and further inculcate erroneous ideas into the Greek consciousness, ultimately to your detriment. The protests in Solun championed the so-called Greek Andarte whose savage ethnocide read murder, rape and pillage of native Macedonian towns/villages in Aegean Macedonia under the ruthless murderer Karavangelis, since annexation in 1912/13. How are these common opportunists, bloodthirsty murderers and sub-humans in the final analysis, so-called “resistance fighters”? Resisting who, what? The Macedonian woman, children and ordinary villagers they killed in the name of Greek expansionism? Please dont come on with that Macedonia belongs to Greece and everything is justified crap. Yeah, we know. Albanians, Serbs, Bulgars all claim the same thing.
@Gregorius. Thanks for your long and detailed reply. To such a load of woes there are only two answers: submit and become perpetual debt slaves like the people of India; or fight for your national autonomy like the people of Syria. If you decide to fight, then your best ally is Russia; so go for your option 3c. Russia has already saved the Greek Christians in Syria. Go with Russia, and you may be pleasantly surprised to find many other older countries around “our sea” joining Greece as allies. The North Atlantic is a chilly sea for Greeks. And as you correctly remind us, Greek Christians and Greek Communists alike, share a “traditional Russo-Philia”. Zhto KKE!
Since I live in Eastern Europe, I have a clear picture of what has been going on. Greece never really wanted to join the EU. It was doing fine before it joined. It had benefits from tourism, from it’s merchant marine and from trade. It also has some limited benefits from its industry and agriculture. On the whole, it was doing well. It only joined the EU because it was bullied into joining, which was relatively easy, bearing in mind Greece is also a member of NATO.
And what do we have now ? A gigantic debt of 320 billion euros, which is remarkable for a country of some 11 million people. The debt, ofcourse, can hardly ever be payed off. When the debt crisis began, the Greek elite transferred 60 billion euros to the West in just one year, which is no big surprise, as history has taught us that an elite is always loyal to itself first and to its country second.
Can Greece leave the EU ? Theoretically anything is possible, but in the case of Greece, almost impossible. As I have stated, it’s a member of both the EU and NATO, and the EU is nothing more than the civilian component of NATO, as proven in 2014, when both instigated that coup d’etat against Yanukovich in Ukraine.
If Greece does not have the strength to leave the EU, than the only thing which can save it would be the break up of the EU. I trust it won’t be too late. Some years back the Germans were openly proposing that Greece sell some of it’s islands to Germany in order to pay off the debt. Not a good idea.
Thanks for the NATO reminder.
Just reading a book on Romania. An insider’s account.
The NATO pressure was huge in the early 1990s. Ongoing. Unfortunately, many Romanian politicians also wanted this “shield.”
One of the “conditions” of NATO membership is alignment with the USA military. Which means, among other things, no conscription/draft; must be a “volunteer” professional army. To me this means basically no citizen army but an internal mercenary force whose loyalty is to their paycheck more than to their country.
To me this seemed to be a very revealing detail that this military “reform” was a precondition for NATO membership.
Greece is of enomrous strategic (including econo-strategic) importance. If Greece were “free,” couldn’t South Stream have come ashore there? Synergized with Greece’s shipping, wouldn’t that be a huge economic engine? No economist here, just wondering. NATO is a boulder around Greece’s neck.
Katherine
Katherine, re your pipeline comment, look at the arc of instability that is right in the middle of this putative pipeline path: Albania, beholden to the US empire; Fyrom /Macedonia, on the brink of civil war; Kosovo, very unstable, (Serb politician Oliver Ivanovic was assassinated there last week.) So unless the pipeline zigzags in and out of Bulgaria and into Serbia, which doesn’t seem economically viable, then it’s a non-starter.
All land routes from Asia to Europe via direct corridors in S. E. Europe are now compromised! Europe is being boxed in, and not sure the western Europeans fully understand this…
Private bankers control the elite in the US and western Europe. By controlling the elite, you control the country. The ordinary people appear to be waking up. We shall see to what extent they are waking up. Поздрав.
“All land routes from Asia to Europe via direct corridors in S. E. Europe are now compromised! Europe is being boxed in, and not sure the western Europeans fully understand this…”
Astute. Thanks. Yes, surely europe must start looking at maps and going Hmmmmm . . .
Especially, I should think, southern and southeastern Europe, since NordStream is being expanded into the north and comes ashore in Germany, no? Although, when you look at a map, the “isthmus” between the Baltic and the Black Seas is not that wide.
For reference:
https://eegas.com/fsu.htm
@Serbian Girl: “look at the arc of instability” — Albania, Macedonia, Kosovo, Serbia. A red flag went up in my head; where had I heard that phrase before? Previously applied to the Middle East of course: the Shia crescent — Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran. See the common factor? (3 letters, begins with U, ends with A). The Man from Uncle, always predicting correctly the next Arc of Instability.
From story teller Kai Lung: When a certain insurance salesman came round, he soon convinced everyone in the neighbourhood that buying insurance was a prudent investment; because, while having a house insured was not necessarily a guarantee that it would not burn down, not buying insurance was a cast-iron guarantee that it would.
Katherine
NATO is the Praetorian Guard of private banksters. They control it, using it for aggression and plundering. When in 1989 the Warsaw Pact collapsed, NATO should have been disbanded. It was not, the excuse being that it would be used to maintain “peace” and fight terrorism. Laughable. The chief target was the Russian Federation. NATO was hoping to destabilize Russia, and then move in in order to break it up, all in the name of “democracy”. It did not happen. Now NATO is facing financial difficulties, looking into a dissolution, which in the end will be inevitable.
If they free themselves from EU control then the question will be who will fill in that vacant spot? The Turks? I doubt Greeks want to live under Turkish hegemony. The Greek haven’t been hegemonic since the the sack of Constantinople about 800 years ago. It would not be impossible for the Greeks to fill in that spot but damn it would be difficult.
That’s a no-brainer given the fault lines of today’s world: Greece would then become part of the Sino-Russian alliance. For all their “European” horseshit, the Greeks haven’t descended to embrace Russophobia. Golden Dawn and the Ukronazis would slit each other’s throats at the very first opportunity. To wit: Western imperialism’s commitment to Greece’s utter destruction has a solid, geopolitical foundation too.
As far as I remember the Chinese once offered to support Greece. Russia may assist them as well.
As long as countries and peoples go along with the West’s looting operation, they will be robbed of everything – wealth, health, self-respect. When countries, including Greece, decide for themselves to be sovereign, then they have a future. Until then, well, they have to give everything to the West. It’s a simple choice, and nobody can make it for them. It’s up to them.
It is akward to see comments about the “Evil EU Empire” it whirls me back to the time before the Brexit vote. The Brits had their say, are everyone here so deluded, that they believe they will do better outside? If the still cling to such illusions, I deem them having another agenda or being anarchists.
I as a socialist am not completely satisfied with the ways EU work, but at least there is som protection against the raw capitalism that the US represent. The right wing of the Tories already did a fine job of dismantling Britain, and the Brexit is their finest accomplishment. What comes here after, if Brexit is not cancelled, will make Greece’s woes seem like a walk in the park, you heard it here first, Brits prepare for American style health insurance, the food banks they got already, and zero hour contracts too, so that’s fine and dandy, but there are plenty to deregulate and dismantle yet, plenty to sell, plenty to outsource.
@Den Lille Abe
You seem to have a somewhat romantic perception of the EU; see below:
“What comes hereafter, if Brexit is not cancelled, will make Greece’s woes seem like a walk in the park /…/ “
“Regarding the EU: Were it not for that we would have been run over by American Imperialism in its most brutal form. As the British soon will experience.”
Should be most grateful for an explanation as to why Obama told the British to vote “Remain”. A committed socialist caring about the well-being even of non-exceptional and dispensable peoples around the planet, perchance?
If there is one view I dont have , it is a romantic view of the EU, that is for sure. It is strictly pragmatic. As I have told you I have lived many places, and from an ordinary citizens possibilities it is not bad, in fact most other are worse. If you at the same time live in the Northern EU states you are pretty well off, when you think off it.
The EU does protect its citizens against the worst excesses, but of course your own government can make life hell. See Britain.
“The EU does protect its citizens against the worst excesses”
………………….like in Greece for Example by the ……………………………………Socialists???????
give me a break.
I don’t speak Greek but I always smile when I see the word Varoufakis. I think the answer is ” Yes, I will most certainly will”!
Well, i will tell you another side of the story: The Greeks do not react because any effort to use force will result in bloodshed from agents planted already inside Greece (that is “refuges”: Moslem males with experience in war zones). If this bloodshed fails to contain the reaction, there will be external intervention with some excuse (it has happened in the past). These events will result in loss of territories towards Albania, “Macedonia” and Turkey (then Turkey will realign itself with the west and will tolerate the creation of a Kurdish state-Russia beware!). What the Greeks can do to defend themselves?? We are not even certain if Mr Putin is willing to risk a confrontation with the West in order to incorporate us in his sphere of influence. Therefore, things are the way they are. Any suggestions?????????
Your comment seems to indicate that you’re Greek. You shouldn’t be worried too much about refugees. If past reports are true Blackwater / Academi had been hired to protect Greece’s elite:
check:
– https://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2013/02/greece-promise-army-has-been-obtained-not-intervene-against-civil-uprising
– http://21stcenturywire.com/2013/02/26/fears-of-coup-in-greece-blackwater-mercenaries-guarding-govt-overseeing-police/
– https://lastresistance.com/have-greek-politicians-hired-foreign-mercenaries-for-protection-from-the-greek-people/
“If past reports are true Blackwater / Academi had been hired to protect Greece’s elite: ”
Maybe, but the point is:
What about the rest???
Katherine
What rest are you talking about?
The Greek elite had to hire Blackwater / Acedemi to save their asses from the anger of the deplorables. The next time they’ll hire them again or another mercenary company. The refugee scare and Islamophobia is used to distract the people and to divide them. The only ones benefiting are right-wing parties. In cases of emergency capitalists always sided with right-wingers.
By “What about the rest?” I meant:
Who’s going to protect the rest of the people?
Katherine
There’s no rest, except if you buy into the Islamophobia. The real division is between the haves and the have-nots. The haves are the Greek elite and the have-nots are the rest (that’s the Greek citizens who aren’t part of the elite and refugees). If Backwater / Academi or whatever they’re called now protect the Greek elite from the have-nots the question about protecting the rest doesn’t make sense.
” … the charter of the IMF that says that the IMF shall not make any loans to a country in distress, that will unlikely be able to reimbursed the debt and pay the debt service.”
That’s not the half of it. The IMF has violated its own constitutional remit according to Michael Hudson as follows”
‘The IMF broke four of its rules by lending to Ukraine: (1) Not to lend to a country that has no visible means to pay back the loan (the “No More Argentinas” rule, adopted after the IMF’s disastrous 2001 loan to that country). (2) Not to lend to a country that repudiates its debt to official creditors (the rule originally intended to enforce payment to U.S.-based institutions). (3) Not to lend to a country at war – and indeed, destroying its export capacity and hence its balance-of-payments ability to pay back the loan. Finally (4), not to lend to a country unlikely to impose the IMF’s austerity “conditionalities.” Ukraine did agree to override democratic opposition and cut back pensions, but its junta proved too unstable to impose the austerity terms on which the IMF insisted.’
All of which goes to amply demonstrate that the IMF along with the BIS, WTO, World Bank, is just another insturment of coercion and control in the arsenal of the Anglo-Zionist empire.
I’m Greek and I have to admit that Greece was a mess even before the ongoing economic crisis.
Greece was always a 2nd world country. Where it goes now remains to be seen.
(you can witness this reality by the 2nd rate quality of infrastructure, buildings, roads, hospitals, the expensive imported goods, terrible public services , lower income levels etc) . The only positive was the negligible violence and crime (which is now rampant because of foreign migrant gangs)
Greece is far better than Africa, somewhat better than Middle East but more similar to the South America (Argentina, Uruguay) than south Europe (Spain, Italy etc) . Still South American countries have some majestic areas., architecture and buildings that modern Greece lacks.
The country was dysfunctional in many levels, and the way of doing things was inflexible , time consuming and over-bureaucratic . Streets were (and still are) full of litter, stray dogs everywhere and ugly gray third worldish buildings.
No one valued time in Greece and especially the public sector services. For basic tasks (such as tax affairs, doctors appointments , renewal of passports etc) you will probably spend hours after hours and numerous days waiting and trying to figure out what other documentation the public sector will ask you for (unless you bribe them to streamline things).
And yet a not insignificant part of middle class (or wannabe middle class) greeks adopted a nouveau rich lifestyle with snobbish behaviours (how their lifestyle was funded is a mystery to me) .
It seems that many Greeks weren’t aware of the true reality of their country and what happened was similar to what happened in Latin America and Asia with the rise of an ultra consumerist and kitch middle class.
Of course, the situation now is even more disgusting. Large parts of the population who somehow were able to get by, are now living far worse with stressful jobs (if they are lucky), meagre wages and pensions , while about
30%+ are unemployed.
The miserable working conditions and Asiatic working hours and payment are the norm (10-12 hrs per day – From office jobs to hospitality & retail). Of course do not expect sweat shop factories in Greece, as there are no factories left (with the exception of some warehouses were illegal migrants work)
Working conditions in Greece are very close to the Asiatic style. The economy is also structured to resemble a “thailand” in the Mediterranean. Only tourism is growing and the low paid jobs in hospitality offers the means to sustain a pathetic existence.
Millions of tourists are coming for the beach Bars of the islands ( mukonos etc) and the sexual adventures with numerous brothels, strip clubs and other young girls …
Anyway, I’m not expecting a revolution or anything like that. Most people are very brainwashed, quite submissive and large parts of Greek society do not have the intellectual capacity to understand the situation. Especially younger generations who grew up with Americanised reality TV or other out of touch middle aged people . There are of course some wonderful Greek people around but sadly a small minority
@Nik: “No one valued time in Greece …”. Stop me if you’ve heard this one, but I heard it from a friend who swears he overheard the conversation.
Anglo tourist to hotel owner: Do you realize I’ve been waiting 15 minutes for you to bring me breakfast?!
Greek owner: And go you realize I’ve been waiting 6 months for you to order breakfast?”
But seriously, Greece is a wonderful country because it is full of decent people who put up with a lot. And as you say, they do not steal. But when they fight, watch out! Hitler lost the Russian campaign because he lost the summer trying to subdue Greece. And if you think Greece is like a South American country, then it shares that honour with Cuba, Chile, Venezuela and others who shook off the rule by fascist colonels who were imposed on Greece by the combined armed forces of Great Britain and the USA.
You will not be surprized if I confess to a certain bias: my father’s family came from Ithaka, the famous “Cuckoo’s Nest” KKE. — Nick Maroudas
Well, you should not forget Odysseus, my most favored hero. Not to mention the discovery of Greek alphabet letters from 4200BC on that Island.
Greeks don’t seem to realize they have one of the best looking countries in the world. You say there are not that many beautiful old buildings – I disagree. I’ve seen thousands – some were built by Venetians. The layout of Halkida for instance is really beautiful, unfortunately – they allowed too many shanty-town style extensions to be built in last few decades so the city looks like a favela. The few very beautiful old houses I still see there have been vandalized and covered in dumb graffiti. In the countryside I see many beautiful remains of ancient aquaducts, Venetian fortresses (again covered with graffiti). Like in Serbia (where I am from) you can see trash dumped all over the countryside.
I’ve seen the same thing before the crisis in early 2000s. Nothing to do with Germans taking over their country.
that’s the problem with watching Anglozionsit media – they brainwash people around the world to think their countries are not good enough – only America is great and free – in reality it’s a apocalyptic dump (and Greece, Serbia etc are much prettier – but locals don’t know that). I’ve seen the same problem in Melbourne. My friends there don’t realize it’s a wonderful place – they want to immigrate to LA ( many parts of which look like a 4th world dump). The power of TV and Fake News…
“that’s the problem with watching Anglozionsit media – they brainwash people around the world to think their countries are not good enough – only America is great and free – in reality it’s a apocalyptic dump (and Greece, Serbia etc are much prettier – but locals don’t know that). I’ve seen the same problem in Melbourne. My friends there don’t realize it’s a wonderful place – they want to immigrate to LA ( many parts of which look like a 4th world dump). The power of TV and Fake News…”
You made me laugh, I agree 100 % with you. As I always say, Hollywood won the Second world war and the Russians put the 25 millions bodies. What you are saying it reminds me of some friends of mine (I am Argentinian and they are Argentinians as well) that once they have spent enough years in the US they get a US passport and they are quite happy about that…until they know that the US is one of the few countries in the whole world (along with Eritrea and North Korea as far as I know) that tax its citizens wherever they live. You have too be really stupid to be happy about having a US passport but anyway …(to be honest some of them are really good friends), ….as you said,.. the power of TV and Fake news.
I read that your are Serb, I had a friend from Serbia (here in Switzerland where I live and he lives) that once, just for fun, he applied for that Programm called “Win a the green Card in the Lottery Programm”, the agency in the US called him 10 times and everytime they kept telling him ” but why do you not want to come ? everybody wants to come to the US” ; ) This is what I call living in a small glass of Mayonnaise.
we (Serbs and Argentineans) are quite similar people. I went to Buenos Aires for the first time a year ago and then again a few months ago – I absolutely love it – and it’s better in every possible respect than the USSA (where I lived for 10 years until recently). The nicest people (as a good Greek friend told me 10 or so years ago )
I wish I mowed there then instead of moving to psychopathic shithole that is LA (one of the reasons I did not was my boluda friend from BsAs – she lived in LA – she told me all the worst things about Argentina – and I believed her) – the power of Fake News – when you believe wrong sources etc – you make huge mistakes.
One of my biggest regrets is not having gone to Argentina sooner. I can’t wait to go back.
” You say there are not that many beautiful old buildings – I disagree. I’ve seen thousands – some were built by Venetians. The layout of Halkida for instance is really beautiful, unfortunately – they allowed too many shanty-town style extensions to be built in last few decades so the city looks like a favela.”
Of course there were many beautiful buildings from medieval times up to early 19th century.
After the independence from Ottoman Empire, Athens (which was then a small village) was built based on the Neo-classical architecture with great buildings such as the University of Athens building by the renowned danish architect Christian Hansen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Hansen_(architect)).
But most of these neoclassical buildings were destroyed or left to rot. After WW2, most public buildings were brutalist concrete monstrosities or cheap smaller sized copies of american style glass buildings. Most residential buildings were condominiums and Athens (as all the other greek towns) is full of them. They are identical: grey and ugly.
If you cant visit Athens, go to google street view and look up Athens. You will see how ugly this city is and many parts also look abandoned and rundown with many buildings occupied by illegal migrants and with stores with chinese letters (as chinese have rented hundreds of stores and warehouses and import clothes and other chinese stuff to flood the greek and european markets). In a way, Athens has become a third world city both architecturally and demographically.
thank you Nik – I actually went to see that university last time I was there – my friends live on Likmavitas (or whatever it’s called that other high hill – not Acropolis) .
it’s not just the old buildings – it’s the way streets are positioned (i.e. in Halkida) and the views framed (i.e. as you walk up the street at the end you see a nice building which is positioned diagonally – to maximize the good view etc – very cleaver, subtle and enjoyable to see). Shame nobody seems to care about them (they are too busy watching American/UK TV and dreaming about buying a Rolex etc – at least my Greek friends are)
Thanks Peter, for an interesting article.
However, I don’t share the optimistic idea that Greece should leave the euro and the EU. For that some kind of revolution or partisan movement is needed. It simply won’t be allowed.
In European history books it is learned, that Greece was liberated in WWII by the British. This is a lie. Greece was liberated by the Greeks. That partisan movement however, was largely influenced by unions with communist sympathies.
The British have simply committed a coup, chased the partisans down together with Nazi sympathisants, and shot with snipers at a protest demonstration on Syntagma square: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/30/athens-1944-britains-dirty-secret
(No, Maidan square, Kiev was no coincidence).
Add to that, that Greek debt can’t be repaid. Those bailouts by the EMF were to keep the Deutsche bank alive, not to save the Greek. The Deutsche Bank has a solvability of 2% (which means they have to borrow 50 euros for every euro they want to pay as a loan, that is even worse than Lehman Brothers in 2008).
To illustrate the point, let’s assume that Greece finds oil, gas, gold, kryptonite. They find a way to forge the material of the shield of Captain America. The economy starts to flourish.
An economic growth of more than 2% per year is utopian for a European nation. Let’s further assume that 5% of the generated GDP is used to relieve the debt. How many years would that take?
We then get the equation (0.05)*(1.02)^N = 1.9
Solving N, we get 184 years. Do we really believe an economic growth of 2% per year for 184 years?
Add to that, a large portion of graduated students (about 40%) in Greece leaves the country.
And, the sinister item that no politician ever mentions, is the Target-2 banking system. Before the euro, with different currencies, there was an actual transfer of money between states while trading. Now, this transfer no longer takes place, but is added to the balance sheets of the central banks.
Germany has a Target-2 debt of close to a trillion euros from the PIIGS countries (Italy is also included), of which 280 Billion is only for car companies VW, Daimler and BMW.
Do we really think that this will ever be repaid?
And then the Greek themselves, or better said their government. When they entered the euro, with low rent, they have had years of party time with consumption without investment.
And yes, they have excellent ship companies. But do you think they pay much taxes?
In Greece you will see that many houses are not really complete. Some concrete wire still sticks out. That’s because when the house is finished, real estate taxes have to be paid. So, they are never finished. In any NW European country, even in France, this problem would be solved in weeks. Not in Greece.
Do we know who is the biggest owner of land and real estate in Greece?
It’s the Vatican. They don’t pay taxes, while being a church. The Vatican has 35 billion euro’s per year income on land and real estate. Not bad, though? This pops up in my mind when the pope starts lecturing on the values of faith.
The most dark thoughts however, is that Greece is destroyed and is no more than a kind of protectorate of banks and Brussels apparatschiks.
And this fate may be waiting for all European nations. And I even think that this is no coincidence.
Cheers, Rob
Iceland said “No!” to the EU, and promptly locked their criminal bankers up. Iceland’s not doing badly; if it were we’d have heard about it incessantly.
It seems to me that loans made under criminally fraudulent terms are unenforceable. I think that is why there have been no criminal prosecutions in the US for the massive fraud perpetrated before 2008; because the entire house-of-cards would have no further legal foundation. I really can’t understand why the Greece continues to try to pay off these loans, which were obviously made under conditions of fraud. Also, a large part of the loans were to built up the military up to Nato’s expectations; another fine example of the military’s fleecing of the people.
There was a good bit of discussion above about socialism/communism. I’d like to point out that India and China both started about the same time: 1947-1949. The two countries present a very stark comparison of which economic system works best for its people. We can also consider Cuba, where literacy is higher than in the US, childhood dental deterioration and obesity have been abolished, and where the bio-tech sector is operating on an extremely high level. Compare this to the miracle of capitalist exploitation: Haiti. Or look at Venezuela, where, despite a huge concerted effort at economic destabilization, the metrics for overall standard-of-living conditions are better than for that beacon of freedom: Honduras.
We all have ideological blinders, myself included.
Greece is intentionally destroyed from abroad AND within. In my opinion, Greece has gone further down the road of self-destruction than any other European country. I estimate that the so called “educational and economic reforms” of the 80’s, 90’s up to today, introduced by successive governments have primarily destroyed the language along with the productive base of the country, events that have inexorably led to the acute dumbing-down and impoverishment of the population, which along with runaway consumerism during the euro era allowed criminal governments to get away with willingly implementing everything dictated by the bankers at minimal political cost, and whose members have largely stashed their ill-gotten riches outside of Greece, along with the so-called “business elite”.
I absolutely agree with your argument that the only way out for Greece is exit from EU and euro along with its geopolitical repositioning (only to face more and fiercer economic and financial warfare, probably accompanied with more social conflict/unrest and/or external threats). Greece has intentionally been led down the road to destruction by its own governments, I would add.Today of course, as you point out, there is no real government, just an expediter of the looting of public and personal property. In a European so-called democracy such as Greece the so-called governments are not governments for the simple reason that all policy on everything is dictated by Brussels.
You should also bear in mind that the US ambassador to Greece is the former US representative to Ukraine. Arrived in Greece at the end of summer 2016 directly from Kiev.
2018 will be a year of many spectacular events, most spectacular of which might prove to be attempts to disrupt the world soccer series hosted by Russia.
I also think that Greece could recover much faster after a return to a national currency. The primary ingredient for recovery is the willingness of an overwhelming majority of the populace to run and sustain a sovereign state. Frankly, I am not convinced that this is what Greeks want.
Regarding an exit from the EU, I am not sure if it would make economic sense now. Whereas Greece could reintroduce its own rules for its market and trades, an exit from the EU would complicate exports as well, such that the effects might largely cancel out.
Why do EU citizens stay silent? Well, I think the Greece disaster is self-inflicted to a significant fraction. In particular its insistence to remain in the Eurozone is a lost cause. But alas, it is up to the Greek citizens to make up their minds.
When Greece entered the Eurozone, its population fell in a similar trap as eastern Germany’s upon reunification. People wanted immediate gains in purchasing power and were unwilling to heed the calls for caution and for a slow transition by some of their own fellows. And not to the least, Greece cheated its books to comply with the rules of the Eurozone entry (as everybody knew then and now). Add to this moronic start the continuing public sport of dodging taxes and you end up with a toxic brew that can only end in disaster.
Despite all this, to my knowledge, most Greeks are still clinging to the Eurozone, probably in a faint but fruitless hope that they might keep some foreign purchasing power. Greece sovereign depth accumulated before the crisis amounted to 60 to 100 billion Euro. This part of the depth is due (with an annual interest in the 1-2% range), in my opinion, whereas the following scam shall be dumped for good because of interest rates that ballooned the sovereign depth several times over.
Quoting, “…..I have to admit that Greece was a mess even before the ongoing economic crisis.”
And, “Greece has intentionally been led down the road to destruction by its own governments etc.”.
And, “…. I think the Greece disaster is self-inflicted to a significant fraction.”
Sensible to consider these quotes, especially since it turns out that the profligacy of Greek government is nothing new. Since independence the modern Greek state has been in one default after another for a sum total of ~90 years. That’s around half of the time it has existed! Pretending this is not as the result of certain attitudes, behaviours, ideologies and values embedded within the culture is misleading. There has been and is a consistent cycle of behaviours being exhibited. And, by the way, foisting on yet more socialist criminality is not an answer, it would be further evasive fraud. There has been enough already!
There are two points to note here. Firstly, a replacement of the old saying, “Beware of Greeks bearing gifts” is in order. Perhaps there was an element of truth to it back in the time of the sacking of Troy, but not these days. A more up to date saying would be along these lines, “Do not lend to Greek governments!”
Second point has to be that the Greek democratic state is not viable. It hasn’t been so since inception. Probably time for Greek people to take a deep and critical look at their recent history and then have a long think about themselves, what they want to be and what they want to create for themselves. Then they need to contrast this with what they actually have become.
Things are going to get worse before they ever get any better and if THIS TIME around nothing is learned and there is failure to realise necessary changes, then the cycle will continue to the ultimate perdition and debasement. That would be awful beyond measure.
Final thought. Looking through history it is clear that when Greece was at its most successful culturally, philosophically, artistically, literature,…. it was a not in the form or structure of a modern nation state. Instead it was a series of much smaller polities- finite, limited in size and population, strictly localised. Since democracy and the nation state are abject failures it is worth considering that what does appear to have been a better approach was smaller, much more localised, much more responsive to local people, far less removed from their direct understanding and direct control. This has got to be a better way to proceed rather than another thirty or forty years of miserable defaults!
The doctrine of Odious Debt is one that is being gradually ‘washed’ out. While debt restructuring has occurred in many instances since 1923, when US Chief Justice Taft cancelled the debt owed to the UK by Costa Rica’s President Federico Tinoco and 1927 when the US again repudiated Cuba’s debt to Spain as Odious Debt the Doctrine itself hasn’t been used.
There have been many instances since that time Apartheid South Africa’s debt, or the debt of Iraq under Saddam Hussein where discussions arose considering the Doctrine however it was always washed through as a ‘restructure’ rather than apply the the Doctrine in force. The last time a ‘threat’ was made to implement the Doctrine was in Ecuador in 2008. Result, a ‘reduced’ debt restructure. Without the backing of a significant Western economy (US it seems) Odious Debt may as well be removed from the books. Iraq had 80% of its debt cancelled in the ‘restructure’ but this was not factored as ‘Odious’ as the US did not want to give other sovereign states that had existed under corrupt or imposed regimes, and money had been loaned and then squirreled away in graft, corruption or simply handed to Western corporations and NGO’s/Aid Agencies to do whatever it is they were supposedly doing to help the local ‘poor’ populations, the opportunity to cite recent examples and uses of the Doctrine.
It’s been almost 100 years since the Doctrine was used, and based on whose coffers the odious debt ‘pours’ to I don’t see it seeing ‘legitimate’ use for another 100, if at all. Much like Human Rights, the doctrine is aspirational in nature and requires humankind to be better than our most base instincts allow us to be.
I agree, Greece’s debt could have been considered Odious and the Doctrine applied but I doubt they would have had enough political support in the places required to have pushed it all the way. At best a reduction during the negotiations.
Now you are moving into the territory where the EU is not benign anymore. I f you want to leave (Britain) you will pay every cent EU thinks you owe, and you might get a trade deal. Maybe.
It is the same with the debt thing in Greece. They can wiggle and squeal all they want, but the reforms will be implemented, the Greeks will have to pay taxes, and the debt will be repaid. If the Greeks want to sit on their hands and their government is too inept to get the Greek economy moving, well the EU cares fkuc about that , it is a domestic Greek problem, Greece is a sovereign country after all.
What the EU cant and will not , and there is no stomach for is concessions, there is no free lunch. The EU consists at moment of 28 member states that ALL HAVE TO AGREE UNANIMOUSLY to whatever is decided. So a negotiator has got so and so marks he can move within, he cant move beyond them… He is locked there, unless the council (28 heads of state) decide otherwise UNANIMOUSLY.
The balling is dropping now, I can hear it : UNANIMOUSLY !!!
Anybody witless and deluded enough to believe that it could be agreed to let Greece of the hook economically or let Britain have “a hell of a trade agreement” please stand up, Slim Shady, please stand up…
Basically this is democratically fine, we plough in according to capability and economical development, but nobody gets a free lunch…. And let finalize by stating : Greece has in all its years been a net receiver, not a contributor. Britain on the other hand has been a net contributor.
No I wasn’t moving into any area. The article started out highlighting the Doctrine of Odious Debt as it appears in International Law. But it’s another International Law that is applied by those with the individual might to back it up and usually to the detriment of someone else. The EU were not the only creditors owed money by Greece. Some of the largest banks in the world were raking in cash from loan repayments.
Just wanted to clarify that it is a piece of International law that hasn’t been used in actuality for almost a century, because it could be applied to far too many loans pushed onto Third World countries. Once that starts to unravel the loan system of the IMF and World Bank takes a bit of a battering. It was just a clarification, only time it has been used was when the US has forced other First World economies to ‘forgive’ debts that were in their geopolitical and economic interests.
It is quite possible that the promising scenarios in the event of a Grexit and EU-exit outlined by Peter Koenig would become reality. However, it cannot be ruled out that this would spell disaster for Greece and Greeks, possibly ending in civil unrest (if not a repeat of the Civil War). The trouble is: no one can tell for sure.
Koenig’s arguments do not sufficiently respect the context of Greece’s history and Greek culture. Since its foundation as a modern state almost 200 years ago, Greece has been dependent on foreign funds; in fact, the first time Greece went bankrupt was before the modern state had even been founded (unpaid loans for the war of liberation). Greece is a national economy which, for almost 200 years of its existence, has been utterly dependent on foreign funding. Koenig gives absolutely no reason why this would change going forward: even after a return to the Drachma, Greece would be dependent on foreign currency funding. Any nationalistic policy which carries the risk of drying out the supply of foreign currency funding would have terrible consequences for the Greek economy. In short, Greece will always need to focus on maintaining an international creditworthiness. The state issuing Drachma debt which the Bank of Greece then buys won’t be enough. On the contrary, it would bankrupt the country domestically.
Greek culture: Greeks do not have an overwhelming culture to ‘make’, to ‘manufacture’ things. Greeks are more into services, with an emphasis on creative services. Since Greek consumers want to buy products which are ‘made’ or ‘manufactured’, they will always have to buy them abroad. Greeks can only buy something abroad if they have something in exchange to sell abroad. If it is not products, it has to be services. Tourism is a service but it alone cannot keep Greek living standards at satisfactory levels. So there have to be proposals about which other services Greece will successfully get in to. Koenig makes no such proposals.
What Koenig ignores altogether is the lousy shape which Greece is in at present, with or without the debt problem. Greece ranks the lowest in the EU as regards attractiveness as a business location and it ranks highest as regards perceived corruption. That is no basis for a prosperous future, with a Euro or with a Drachma. A prosperous future would require Greece to get its act together. If Greece ranked highest as an attractive place to do business and lowest in terms of perceived corruption, Greece would see wonderful prosperity in the future, with a Euro or with a Drachma (but more so with the Euro).
This message unfortunately is for Greeks only (sorry other guys), as the videos are in Greek.
Explanation about Euro and the enslavement of European Nations and the political corruption:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHQouu3iEeA
Euro or Drachmi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4vWwQ-28pA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKU_4nXxRh4
Unfortunately, the brainwashing machine constantly scares the Greek population about an impending catastrophy if the Greece drops the Euro or exits EU.
Correct. And here in Sweden, the media hogwash about China and Russia is instantly applied whenever there is a favourable business deal on offer from those two countries that would serve to stop Sweden’s deindustrialization process: National security concerns, environmental destruction, bla bla bla.
What’s quite telling about this specific comment thread is that there are some people — all of them non-Greek, mind you — who simply cannot stand to see Greece being spared this excruciating act of torture by the IMF and the You’re_a_peon Union. As if somebody was going to suffer apart from some creatures within High Finance if Greece’s debt was cancelled. Euro-trash really stinks to High Heaven.
I’d love to see Greece show a finger to bankster mafia – but unfortunately it seems that Greeks have been too brainwashed and fearmongered into submission – and they still think without EU they are nothing
I am back for short addition.
To answer the question posed in the title I’ll say yes and no. It is my opinion that Greece was singled out by the Global Oligarchy because of its ancient history. No, because Greek population sees that unfortunately all major parties have been infiltrated by the Globalist monster and therefore there is no one to vote for. People are afraid to vote for the nationalist party, even though it sounds promising, but Siriza sounded the say, sort of before it got elected, and we know what happened afterwords. Even the so called Orthodox Parties are with the Globalists as in the past they voted for troika’s murder of Greece.
Now, the Siotu guy way above, sounds like classic Globalist (mod-to note: “unnecessary” word deleted) spreading all kinds of anti Greek lies, which are nothing less than Greek-hating propaganda. Sort of like Russophobia, probably the same bunch.
Greek hating propaganda… When did this start ? 300 years ago (just to make sure) or is it a propaganda strategy laid down by Zionists, Rotschilds, Somalia, Türkmenistan & Angela Merkel , with the devilish goal off “Der totaler Vernichtung die Grechisher Volkes” and they are halfway there having completely ruined Greece, while the innocent population were innocent bystanders to rampage of the EU machine + above?
Could this nefarious plan happen, with the rest of world clapping?
How about forsaking the weed and funny mushrooms for a while , come back to reality, take a crash course in economics and talk to your gran dad, to regain common sense.
I have to say I have never heard any Greek – hating propaganda anywhere in the wold- everyone I know feels sorry for them
The anti-Greek phrases you’re referring to are the same used by each and every neo-liberal banker / politician to justify policy decisions that throw people (especially the poor ones) under the bus.
I have heard my Dutch sister-in-law saying the same disparaging cliches about the lazy Greeks (implying that that Dutch are more hardworking and the Greeks should be taught a lesson or some such). I know HER brother-in-law, a dutch businessman, feels the same way.
Katherine
Is there any significant debate among Greeks on exiting the EU? I’m not Greek, I don’t read Greek, and I’ve never happened upon anything in English that shows there is such a debate and that there is a significant, even if small, constituency that wishes to leave the EU, that has a patriotic backbone, and no inferiority complex. And, by the way, patriotism is not being anti-Muslim or anti-immigrant or obsessed by some other peripheral issue – it is focusing on getting Greeks to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and refusing to be colonized by the EU.
I have been to Greece many times and unfortunately have never met a Greek with the attributes you listed. That’s why I lost all hope in Greeks ever being willing and able to help themselves get rid of the yoke
In fascist EU/NATO land, there is no real debate allowed. Neutered individuals with pre-set instructions are presented as “debaters” promoting the empire’s agenda. All else is shadow play, where seeming reality is anything but. Politicians are not allowed to have their own views. The Balkan pollies, for example, Borisov – Bulgaria, Tsipras – Greece, Zaev – Macedonia, Rama – Albania, Vujčić – Serbia, are all Soros flunkies. Their policies are given to them on a weekly/daily basis, from the American embassies. Its left to the puppets to control their peoples as they see fit.
I think you are right about Vucic at least – my cousin used to be quite senior in Serbian government – and he told me the same thing about the orders, threats, bullying, crocodile tears and other psychopathic tricks coming from Uncle Satan’s embassy
http://kurir.mk/makedonija/vesti/skandal-grchki-vesnik-so-kartata-za-podelba-na-makedonija-na-naslovna-strana-foto/
http://kurir.mk/makedonija/vesti/grci-vo-uniformi-na-andartite-koi-gi-palea-makedonskite-sela-vo-egejska-makedonija-protestiraa-vo-solun-protiv-makedonija-foto/
An excellent article from Peter Koenig. In support of his assertions, I put forward a term that Macedonians have had for Greeks for at least a century, “Dolžen ko Grk”, or “Indebted like a Greek”. Indeed, Macedonians – who have felt the fascist heel of Greeks and their quisling, Western created state, in earnest for at least a century, and who are now facing the US/NATO/EU sponsored end game where their historic identity, heritage and state is concerned – know Greeks better than most. Modern Greeks are a Western created identity who have lived off the auspices of others for as long as Macedonians at least can remember. They have been given free reign to completely wipe out the presence of the native Macedonians from their historic lands. Aegean Macedonia, 50 % of ethnic/geographic Macedonia was annexed by Greece during the Balkan Wars in 1912/13.
Today they cast themselves as victims of the Macedonians!? Sound familiar? Same as their bemoaning of their problems with their physically and spiritually bankrupt country, ie; someone else’s fault. However, as I’m sure to be accused of being a “Skopje propagandist”, a “Slav who has stolen Greek Macedonia”, or a “Greek hater”, my intention here in commenting ( as well as placing the links where today in Greece, in 2018 and a member of the “democratic EU”, front page headlines feature maps of the final dismemberment of the Rep. of Macedonia, with once again the lion’s share going to Greece ), is not to further villify Greece, but to simply point out the cautionary tale that the circumstances that led to the creation and upkeep of the Greek state invariably leads to unmitigated disaster! Anyone could be a Greek. Humans are humans and entirely predictable. For the record, I personally have nothing against Greeks. A glance at the second link Ive provided will show massive crowds in Solon ( Thessaloniki ) protesting against Macedonia, calling for its blood etc. while Greece proper “burns”. This is an extremely relevant example as it shows how some human beings are able to manipulate others en masse. Today, Greeks seemingly, are more concerned with patenting the name Macedonia than saving their own country. A Faustian “bargain with the devil” to be sure. Another Macedonian saying, “Baba se češla, seloto gori”, “While grandma combs her hair, the village is burning”…
There was no annexation of “Macedonia” by Greece.
The territory was under Ottoman muslim control for almost 500 years and after the Balkan wars of 1912, the Greek-Serbian-Bulgarian alliance divided the area between Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Greece.
The Ottoman province of Macedonia was multiethnic and multi-religious as it had populations of Greeks, Jews (in Salonica), Slavs, Serbs, Bulgarians, Vlachs, Albanians, Turks, Gypsies etc. But it was under the turkish occupation and Turks were the masters and did as they liked and not only taxed the christian population (but also had the right of the conqueror to have sex with the christian girls of the area…..)
If modern Greeks are an invented identity, what about the slavs of Macedonia ?
They claim the heritage of Ancient macedonians but they speak a Bulgarian slavic oriented language (as thousands of Slavic people settled in the Balkans and Macedonian are in the middle ages) and are ethnic slavs. In addition, about 30% of the FYROM population are Albanians (together with some Turks, Vlachs, and Gypsies)
Ancient Macedonians (who were greek speaking) ceased to exist after they became conquered by Romans.
For almost 1,500 years Macedonia was under Roman control (but with also many years under the control of Bulgars and Serbs) . Various peoples migrated and settled in these times that span centuries. The ideas of 20th century nationalism are absurd as they do not follow historical changes.
It is ridiculous for modern people to fight over the rights of the extinct ancient state of Macedonia that was dissolved in 146 BC.
History and demographics are not static. Constantinople was greek speaking and christian and was the Roman capital for more than 1,000 years. Today it is the Turkish city of Istanbul (meaning to the city from the greek “εις την πολιν” ) and only a handful christians reside there.
The ridiculous “nationalist” dispute between Greece and FYROM is truly laughable as both countries are puppet states of the West. Western powers want to add FYROM to NATO to counter Russian influence. So the issue will have to be solved soon……
Before it was under Ottoman control it was Macedonia, and the people living there were Macedonians and not nameless “Slavs”.
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/2010/03/23macedonian-language-16th-century
“By the end of the 14th century, Macedonia had already been under Ottoman rule for a few decades… as the greater region was finally deprived of any sense of liberty, forms of local state structure in Macedonia ceased to exist. This left the resonsibility of retaining the culture, language and identity with the religious institutions that were active in Macedonia at the time. Institutions such as the Archbishopric of Ohrid and even more significantly the hundreds of churches in Macedonia, played a pivotal role in ensuring the local culture, language and identity of the people would survive throughout the centuries of hardship.”
“The Bulgarian label that is at times attached to the Macedonian language… is remnant terminology largely due to Macedonia’s former location within the Bulgarian Empire”.
Empirical evidence contained in Linguists Ciro Gianelli and Andre Vaillant’s “Macedonian Lexicon 16th Century”, decidedly refutes your negation of an autochthonous Macedonian identity and by imputation that there is no Macedonian language. A simple search will show that the origins of the word “Bulgar” is a Turkish word meaning mixed. This perfectly describes the Bulgarians whose historiography celebrates their Turkic Mongol roots, yet since arriving in Macedonia in the 7th Century, just a few short centuries later claim that the Cyrillic alphabet originates from “Bulgarian” monks, Kiril and Metodi. Kiril and Metodija were native Macedonians.
“Despite the absence of written works relating to statehood, material of a religious and educational nature continued to flourish, and Chursch Slavonic, an essentially Macedonian tongue that was developed for such purposes in the 9th century, remained the literary language of the Macedonian people. However, the vernacular tongue of the Macedonians had co-existed with Church Slavonic and matured over the years demonstrating a remarkable resilience and stability which earned its introduction as the language of church services in Macedonia. The Macedonians were faced with foreign interference in both their lands and institutions, but their language had been largely solidified, evidenced in the fact that spoken Macedonian from the 16th Century has a far greater affinity to spoken Macedonian dialects of today than it does to Old Church Salvonic. For well over half a milenium, the Macedonian language has basically remained the same.”
Are you a linguist? I doubt it? Then perhaps you could defer your judgement until you do a little more research on the subject. Gianelli and Vaillant are neither Greek nor Macedonian, so their work has no political bias. As for the rest of your lecture, it wasnt Macedonians who agreed to be dragged into the so-called name dispute – a construction of the Clinton administration and a continuation of the Western genocide of the Macedonian people since the partition of Macedonian during the Balkan Wars of 1912/13. So-called mediator Nimic was appointed by Clinton. Ancient Macedonian heritage – if Greeks want it so bad, why isnt their state called Macedonia? Instead they settled for a Western imposed name, “Greece”.
“Ancient Macedonian heritage – if Greeks want it so bad, why isnt their state called Macedonia? Instead they settled for a Western imposed name, “Greece”.”
What you are implying is not a legit argument:
Macedonia is not the whole of Greece, why should the whole country be named after that area ?
Greece is also what this country is called in english and is derived from the romans who called it “Graecia”.
it is not an official name, as “Greece” is officially called “Hellenic Republic” (not “greek republic”)
(Many other countries are known by different names in different languages : Germany is called Deutschland in german or Allemagne in French. France name is derived from the Frankish tribes but in Greek it is called Γαλλια Gallia which is derived from the ancient name Gaul )
In greek language, Greece is called “Ellada” (Ελλαδα) a completely different name. During the roman times, the people of “Byzantine” (East Roman) Empire (who were mostly greek speaking) thought themselves as Romans and thats how they called themselves (as they were subjects of the Roman Empire – even though they were not from Rome as Eastern Roman Empire was multiethnic and included greeks, Armenians, Slavs and other Anatolians).
Ethnic and cultural identity changes through the time. Religion changed too as the ancient greek religion (and other european native religions) were replaced by christianity. Huge historical , linguistic and cultural changes occur everywhere. For example, the peoples of ancient Spain and France did not speak the modern latin derived languages that are known today.
Anyway, it is ridiculous for the slavic speaking people of FYROM to try to exclusively claim the heritage of the ancient macedonian state and its people.
The ancient macedonian kingdom and people were somewhat distinct but still were hellenic. Ancient Greece was not monolithic and uniform, numerous city states existed as well as different dialects.There were cultural differences & political differences too between them (e.g Athens vs Sparta etc)
Of course slavic people settled in all these areas in the middle ages even in some parts that are now in modern Greece.
But there is no direct continuation between the 20th century state (of slavic – albanian people) that it is called “Republic of Macedonia” and the ancient Macedonian state. The ancient Macedonian state was conquered by the romans in ancient times & ceased to exist. Many others conquered these lands, numerous tribes settled……
The idea to claim direct ancestry from something that ceased to exist for 2,000 years old is absurd and product of the nationalist ideas of the 20th century.
Apparently, you’ve missed the point. In the final analysis, beliefs cannot be argued. Thats an indefensible. You do not appear to understand that the so-called name dispute is a political construct created by the West, the same powers behind the partition of Macedonia in 1912/13, and is a continuation of the same policies by the same people; to dispossess Macedonians of their historic land, identity, heritage, and to assimilate/claim her territories, heritage and identity as Greek, Albanian, Serbian, Bulgarian. We have documented atrocities on behalf of aforementioned neighbors in aid of their geo-political aspirations, etc. This in my book is known as fascism. This the reality on the ground whether you are aware of it or not.
“Fascism; a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterised by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of oppostion…”
I could care less whether you believe that Greeks have the right to ancient Macedonian heritage or not. If you support Greece’s claim to Macedonia you are supporting, unwittingly or not, Western fascism as exemplified around the world today by USA/NATO/EU. If you’re not Greek, that would explain your naivete; ie; getting caught up in the red herring known as the name dispute. I hope I have made myself clear; Greece cannot claim to be the victim of fascist West, while at the same time freely employing fascistic methods to its political benefit, which in the end, only deflect from its real problems.
My point in sharing some of the truth of Macedonia here, is to point out some of the elements of the Greek character that has led them into the blind-alley thay now find themselves in. It follows that if they do not treat the cause, the Greek consciousness itself, but continue to “debate” the symptoms – the woe it finds itself in, then the entity in question, Greece, has no hope of survival.
http://michael-hudson.com/2015/07/why-greeces-debt-is-illegal/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE7-yf7vJ6A (Nikolai Starikov)
I said the same to my aunt back in 2011-12 and she (who had managed a bank office for decades) answered “no, because then We will have to buy back the Drachma for a rate ~230 to 1 Euro (IIRC)”.
I still don’t understand for what, are they paying for the brand name “Drachma”?
Just create a new currency and call it “Rothchild” (or something) that way every Greek can have him – in fact, the whole dynasty of the Red Serpent E.T.’s – in their pocket!