I honestly think that there are five possible culprits as to who did it. In order of likelihood:
1) The Houthis – for obvious reasons.
2) Mossad – to provoke a war against Iran by the US. The Israelis would sit back and watch.
3) Iran – to provoke an attack by the US, so that they can 1) destroy Saudi production 2) shut off Hormuz and thus collapse the Western Economy. The Democratic Party would seize on ensuing economic disaster, Trump would be history and the JCPOA would be permanently reinstated.
4) United States – a rogue agency action meant to provoke a war.
5) Saudi Arabia – to provoke a US war against Iran while simultaneously raising the price of oil. I think that this one is the least likely since Iran is ready to completely destroy Saudi oil facilities if a war breaks out.
More likely than not, it was the Houthis using Iranian technology.
This one is impossible because the Houthis and Iran would be screaming about it, not giving the Houthis credit for it.
2) Mossad – to provoke a war against Iran by the US. The Israelis would sit back and watch.
Same with 4 and 5. Impossible given the reality that the Houthis claim it and Iran has not claimed false flag by 2,4 or 5.
Iran does not want a war brought down upon itself. This is just silliness.
The Iranians, since the breaking of JCPOA by the US and sanctions, have been quite measured and strategic in their actions. Look at the tankers episodes, and the downing of the drone but not downing the spy plane with 35 Americans aboard.
First, if Mossad did it the Iranians might not even know who did it. The Saudis might not know either. Thus, the Houthis take credit and know one knows the better.
Second, don’t discount that the Iranians might want a war. Iran studied what happened with Iraq. The US bled Iraq dry with year after year of sanctions and then invaded after Iraq was weak. Iran can’t allow that to happen to them.
Additionally, the hardliners in Iran now have the upper hand since they warned against the agreeing to the JCPOA saying that “you can’t trust the United States.” Now, they have credibility, while the more moderate people who cut the deal don’t have credibility. Moreover, yes, war would bring down harm on Iran but so will long term sanctions (see what happened to Iraq). Iraq was not just invaded but humiliated. Not many people know this but the Iraqi Constitution was basically dictated by the United States. Iran does not want to suffer that fate.
Finally, Iran studied asymmetrical warfare very carefully. Iranian rockets were designed to have 1200 mile range – long enough to force American carriers to retreat beyond their effective range or be sunk. So, how does the US obtain air supremacy – which was the key to winning in Iraq. They can’t do it with carriers. So how do they do it? Not with bombers from Diego Garcia since Iran has the S300. Not with sorties from Iraq or Turkey or even Qatar since those countries won’t allow it. Iran has carefully thought this out and has prepared for this for a long time.
Why do you think that Trump did not retaliate against either the drone shoot down or destruction of the Saudi oil facilities. He didn’t because he was told he couldn’t without grave harm to the US. Specifically, he was told about the derivatives issue. The Pentagon informed Trump that if Hormuz is blocked that it would not only raise the price of oil, wreak havoc with the oil supply but also trigger trillions of dollars in derivative contracts, potentially crashing the entire American banking system.
Therefore, the harm that the Iranians are faced with (stand off missiles getting through air defense) is not as bad as the harm that the west is faced with – which is a total economic collapse.
That’s why Trump has done nothing, even after bombing Syria over nothing. He now knows that Iran he has walked himself into a huge trap.
Iran being behind it is not far fetched at all.
As far as the Saudis are concerned, I agree, probably not.
But don’t rule out rogue elements in the US. For a while in Syria, CIA backed rebels were fighting Pentagon backed rebels in Syria. The fact that this happened is not even seriously disputed in the United States. It was basically admitted that the President had lost control of the war to agencies of the government which were fighting proxy wars with themselves.
Right, the trade in dollars of oil could be cut so drastically as to cut out the money changing profiteers, reducing the circulation of dollars and the ability of all those dollar denominated debts to be repaid in a timely manner. It could reek havoc w/the U.S. economic derivatives and swamp the financial system with further defaulted payments.
We don’t feel the pain of the billions of 90 days or greater student loan debt, cars and houses just file through bankruptcy, but the commercial sector slowdown could rival 08 just as the FED runs out of bullets and the ECB has only 20 billion a month ability’s to pick up the slack. We cant afford to go to war and lose the oil trade.
I hadn’t even thought about the Petrodollar issue, but you are right. That would add to the derivative triggering and the overall impact of shutting down of oil shipments.
You stated ” Iran being behind it is not far fetched at all”. This is virtually impossible. Iranians, just like Russians, have highly capable analysts. The last thing Iran would do was attack Saudi oil facilities and incriminate itself. By now it is an accepted fact that Houthis did indeed fire those drones, humiliating both the Saudis and the US Military Industrial Complex, which produces the Patriot Missile System. Saudi Arabia does not possess the Russian Pantzir missile system, specially designed to fight cruise missiles, and whose deadly efficiency was proven in Syria. Trump and Pompeo therefore accuse Iran in order to save face, while at the same time analyzing the possibility of attacking the country, as decreed by the neocons in the US. If the US does indeed attack Iran, we shall get a very ugly situation.
I actually think that it is probably the Houthis. But I don’t think it is “beyond doubt.” I have read many other of your posts and I know that you are quite sophisticated, sophisticated enough to know that these days we simply can’t trust the media consensus. We have to sort through the undisputed facts and come to our own conclusions. That is why I think it probably was the Houthis. But Iran’s involvement (or Israel’s) should not be ruled out.
I agree, by the way, that Pompeo’s finger pointing at Iran is, in part, an attempt at both “face saving” and “war mongering.” But the fact that the US has specifically blamed Iran and then did absolutely nothing, proves my point about Iran’s asymmetrical strength.
It’s deliberate. The point is to reinforce the zionazi-gay propaganda line that Iran was behind the attack, that Iran attacked saudi arabia. One can see how the “commenter” and co-workers steered their “discussion” in the later posts, to reach such a conclusion. They frame it as a critique of american policy, but the real point is to reinforce the zionazi-gay propaganda line smearing Iran.
This is a standard websayanim spamming technique, guardianistas specialize in it.
Lol vot tak…not everyone who are sharing their far fetched ideas are zionazi-gay propagandists or spammers. I think you underestimate people’s broad imagination ;-).
Thanks vot tak.
Yeah.
It’s quite obvious We have *binary beersheba b@stard babies* bothering Us-Adults in the room.
The use of am.colloquial English confirms it’s a bunch of kids workin’ for idf.
Cheers Veritas X-
Mike, I think you should stick to number 1 on your list :-). As Larch mentioned
What is interesting, is from where did the attacks originate ? All the way from Yemen, or from assets closer by within Saudi Arabia or Iraq for example ? Were Iranian backed Iraqi groups involved ?
I am almost sure that the Iranians would not risk to implicate themselves in the attack, but they could have helped in delivering weapons, advising, intelligence, etc.
In any case, congratulations to the Houthis and their allies on accomplishing one of their missions !
Prolly refused (or continually delayed) to pay back that money frozen in U.S. banks after the 79 revolution, the world court ordered the payback, and as usual, the U.S. never did (until early in the Trump administration that then opened the door for wild speculations as to the reasons for payment).
I haven’t found any record of formal complaints against the Obama administration by the Iranian government regarding the JCPOA. Generally, the Obama administration was regarded in the US as being too soft on Iran, for example:
On the Obama administration policy may provide a clue.
Based on the above it appears that this may have been a disagreement on the implementation of the agreement particularly regarding sanctions.
The Obama and later Trump administrations retained the option of continuing or imposing sanctions against Iran for issues supposedly not related to the nuclear issue. These concerned human rights, the support of terrorism and Iran’s ballistic missile program. If Iran had the expectation that all sanctions would end after the agreement was enacted this may have caused the disagreement.
The thought of Thanatopia sanctioning anyone for ‘human rights’, support of terrorism and possessing ballistic missiles, when the USA is the greatest desecrator of human rights, ever, the greatest supporter of every type of terrorism, including the economic terrorism of sanctions, and is armed to the teeth with every sort of missile, is hypocrisy almost beyond belief. Except that it is so normal.
True, but for me not the point. The JCPOA halted the seemingly inevitable march towards war with Iran. We are back on that road again since Trump withdrew US participation. I’m not a particular fan of Obama, but I do believe in giving credit where it is due. Obama faced overwhelming opposition in the Congress supported with a joint address by Netanyahu. The deal was not a fair agreement from the point of view of Iran but any Presidential policy requires some degree of support to succeed.
The professor Mohamed Morandi is a intellectual that talk just with true words. And I think that is morality acceptable that anyone in the world goes to help the yemeni people in any way.
Speculation, speculation, speculation… Compete with f n waste of time.
EVERYBODY with an opinion…
or accusation.
–
I thought the Professor was polite, courteous, concise and accurate.
At 6:40 you can see the good Professor had had enough.
They “anchor” acted as if she had just graduated High School.
–
RT (America)- Its usual self. Regurgitate whatever the West has to spew, no matter how ridiculous or outright idiotic the claim, and then try to ‘pretend’ its not biased, with it inane questions/statements.
-trying to keep its operating license in the US
–
This kind of crap is the reason I stopped watching RT many years ago. At its beginning it was almost fully staffed with ex-BBC clowns.
Hasn’t gotten any better.
Former CNN clown/obfuscator/bullshitter Rick Sanchez now at RT America, need I saw more.
You said… “RT (America)- Its usual self. Regurgitate whatever the West has to spew, no matter how ridiculous or outright idiotic the claim, and then try to ‘pretend’ its not biased.”
This is truly the most bizarre comment I have ever encountered on this site…I don’t even know where to start except to say that I believe this sort of thinking belongs in a very dark damp place under a rock.
I think your reasoning is quite good, especially point number 3. However, I take your points more from a point of view as consequences of actions if the specifically listed scenario were found to be true.
The sanctions have backed Iran into corner and will only weaken Iran over time: it is in Iran’s interest to hit while they’re still strong enough to do so and while the military alliance against them are not fully prepared and Trump is at his most vulnerable (teetering economic performance just before an election with a base that wants him to pull out of wars not start a massive one).
Everyone admits that the Trump sanctions on Iran have been surprisingly effective (including sources inimical to the US). If Iran has concluded that they are going to inevitably attacked in a devastating way at some point in the future, then precipitating a hot war before the aggressor is ready would be logical (and if Trump can have his presidency destroyed, even better, because it will also politically deter his replacement from such an idiotic adventure).
Trump has painted himself into a corner. As I noted in a post above the Pentagon informed Trump that if Hormuz is blocked that it would not only raise the price of oil, wreak havoc with the oil supply but also trigger trillions of dollars in derivative contracts, potentially crashing the entire American banking system.
On Monday, the American banking system faced a temporary liquidity crisis. The Federal Reserve had to inject about 50 billion into the banking system to stabilize the banks. I heard one analyst speculate that the Saudis might have made a large withdrawal in response to the bombings. If that happened and had such and effect on the system, imagine what the full scale war might do. On the other hand, if the Saudis didn’t make a huge withdrawal the the system might be showing signs of inherent systemic weakness. Either way, Trump has serious problems.
Trump can always blame the Fed for raising rates (and full faith and confidence that goes with it) while the rest of the western world was operating mostly in a negative rates environment. He wont take the war route, and can lay blame at the Feds feet if the economy goes south for any reason(s), he has that greater fool in his hip pocket and with the fools goes time to sort it all out. I don’t see the problem(s) here.
I think you could just as easily substitute the human race for Trump if it came to war, b/c by then it would be a known that the race is going in the wrong direction. And there are always consequences to be paid by someone(s) once going in the wrong direction, no matters who you are.
1) If Iran did precipitate this attack (via proxies like that Houthis or Arab Shia militias in Iraq, or any combination of the aforementioned), JCPOA is dead. In fact, it always was “dead” or a lie foisted by the duplicitous treaty breaking West. I believe they only intended to use it to stall and drag out things to slow down Iran’s nuclear program and continue to grind down Iran’s economy, while simultaneously trying to instigate internal revolts to remove the current “regime” and then pillage them and balkanize them to poverty. The whole thing stank of a “good cop/ bad cop” setup to keep screwing Iran.
What these idiots, in some corridors of power in the West, don’t realize is that Iran is highly focused, ruthless and a very cunning player; they invented a lot of what the West considered modern state craft (if Iran could telegraph their thoughts to the amateurs in the Western Elite, I imagine it would be something like: “I’m your father, who do you think you’re kidding?”). That’s why Javed Zarif was on the ropes, at one point, within the Iranian system. His opponents within the Iranian leadership (correctly) made the argument that any deal made with West was worthless. He, on the other hand, made the argument let’s give it a shot, if they screw us the whole world will see it. And that’s where we are now.
In a way, Trump has been (inadvertently) more honest about the final intent the West had towards Iran: destruction of Iran’s sovereignty and intelligencia, wholesale pillaging of their resources, and statrapi (but only after Iran lost millions of civilians) . (Like a bull in a china shop) Trump’s actions forced Iran to prepare for a military attack rather than be lulled by a deceptive fake deal called JCPOA. At the same time, he accelerated the schedule for a western attack before the West had lined up all its ducks to carryout the final screw job on Iran. That’s the real reason that the weasels in the Democratic Party, establishment Republicans, deep state bureaucrats and the even more weasely EU trash were going hysterical with rage when Trump withdrew from the fake-deal. He blew their strategy. And now Trump doesn’t have an exit strategy, he’s backed himself into a corner, and greatly weakened the West’s hand.
2) I think Iran has very shrewdly, used proxies to support their own foreign policy and to support their national security. That’s why I don’t believe it’s likely that they directly launched the attacks from Iran or used Iranian military to do so. It’s much more useful to use proxies because of the uncertainty it sows in their adversary and it partially insulates Iran from international blame. They are only doing to their adversaries what their adversaries do to them (using proxies and supporting legitimate liberation movements which are beholding to them).
3) I do think there is logic to Iran wanting to call Trump’s bluff before Iran continues to weaken and bleed under the sanctions (really one should call it what it really is: a virtual air, sea and land blockade, which is an overt act of war). If an act of war is being openly carried out against you, and at no cost to your enemy, and at crippling cost to you, then you’d be a fool to let this one-sided affair continue: you’d need to create conditions where your enemy started to pay a price too. It would be even better if you could do so under the radar. However, if you can’t do it under the radar, then there is logic to having it out overtly while you still can. (especially when you know that your enemy intends to destroy you, your society and carry out actions that will kill millions of your people for decades to come and denude your people of theirr resources and thereby condemning your nation’s progeny to generations of poverty and decline. Especially, if you witnessed it happening to your immediate neighbours …then if you neglected to act, you’d have to be a very special type of fool).
Contrast Iran’s intelligent and rational strategy to that to the idiot Saddam Hussein: he just sat there, like a sitting duck, while the demons Bush and Thatcher (a proud Anglo instigator of that war) built up forces against him over the next 6 months. He just sat there and got his country crushed.
“I’m your father, who do you think you’re kidding?”
I think Iran also understands that the whole world is watching these events. Throughout the world major nations like Brazil (the people of Brazil, not the government) and India are seeing the West get badly outplayed. For instance, the seizure and release of the Iranian tanker. Though the tanker was delayed, eventually Britain had to back down and the oil got to Syria. Britain’s ranting that “Iran promised that they oil would not go to Syria” was little more than face saving. But the whole world saw it for what it was.
I don’t think that the leaders in the West understands that the Iranians are engaging in their own hybrid warfare and part of that warfare is to destroy the myth of Western invincibility.
I agree, but how could US sanctions not be ‘effective’? They are vicious and cowardly, in true Yankee style, and the US has, completely illegally, forced other states to join in, by the threat of economic retaliation for non-compliance. Evil piled on evil, and put into effect by the sanctions department of the US Treasury, run, as is traditional, by a Zionazi Jew-a truly disinterested person, no doubt.
Signs of weakness of the American empire are everywhere. The rise of China, the development of superior weaponry by Russia (on a much lower budget, to boot), the fractures in both the alliance with Europe and within Europe itself, the systemic corruption and the total absence of statementship in the United States.
We might be at a pivot point.
The Iranians might very well be thinking that also. They might believe that all it takes at this point is a good push.
This issue of nuclear weapons is scary. I remember the Saker saying that there are people in the United States who are “that crazy.”
Unlike DGSE above, I appreciate all the speculation from such a diverse group of informed and intellectual commenters. I think the eclectic nature of this forum is invaluable and an enormous help in trying to get to the real truth of culpability in dangerous events such as what recently happened in KSA.
People of the caliber that contribute to ‘The Saker’ have formed a powerful think-tank and can be extremely effective in exposing the real perpetrators. As Leonard Cohen said…”there is a crack in everything”…well guess what… there will be lots of cracks that appear in the LSM’s current narrative.
Groups such as this and their global networks have developed the power now to actually stop wars. They now legitimately fight the drumbeating warmongers of both Government and media and expose the extreme hypocrisy of this monolithic and vicious Western hegemony.
At last the masses have a voice and the means to ferret out the truth. This Mainstreet movement is all-powerful now and will be the downfall of TPTSB [the powers that shouldn’t be]. Furthermore, this macabre collection of murderous creatures has totally underestimated this power…this will be their downfall.
I repeat again what Ross Ashcroft so eloquently said on this very subject…
“To really understand something is to be liberated from it. Humanity’s greatest ally is the self-educated individual, who has read, understood, delays their gratification, and walks around with their eyes wide open.”
“This issue of nuclear weapons is scary. I remember the Saker saying that there are people in the United States who are “that crazy.”
Indeed there are a number that I can think of that actually form the Hegemons war council as such.
#1 SOS
#2 Outgoing Security Adviser
#3 Interim Security Adviser
#4 Perhaps the Incoming Security Adviser?…[jury still out on this one…but I have to say my hopes are not high}
#5 Vice President
This obscene group of warmongers is in turn ‘led’ by a bombastic baffoon with an ego the size of Mt Everest. When it comes to diplomacy, this clown almost makes Tony Soprano look like Mother Teriesa.
Dude, what is your problem?! I see one comment, (no, two, yours and DGSE) which come off in any way ‘buggered’. Perhaps you ought to step away from the internet for a while to reset your nerves. It’s disrespectful, tacky, just unnecessary. I don’t feel that kind of behavior helps foster any productive (non-buggered) discussion. I’m surprised that Saker or the mods allowed that comment through. Are you sure it was meant for this article’s comment thread?
Seriously, why are you lashing out at us?? I learned a lot, was shown perspectives, analyses in this thread that opened my mind.
why would the Houthis stake claim for the attack if it was not their work?
why would the Iranians admit that it was the work of the Houthis were it was not the truth?
I do not see how the Iranians would want war that is going to create massive damage to their country, and critically set back the BRI investments, the war in Syria and all manner of loss I do not think is easily sustainable, or to be recovered.
how would Russia and China take to the loss of the investments and the massive set back to BRI?
it seems simple to me: the Iranians do not want war with the USA at all..and would not attack the Saudis to give the USA an excuse for to attack Iran
Both the Iranians and Houthis want to convince the Saudis to stop the war in Yemen. A good way to do that is to show that the Saudis that continuing the war will result in unacceptable costs inflicted upon them. The Saudi ruling family is very unpopular. The people of that country (and it is a heavily populated country) are only kept under control by a combination of force and, basically, a welfare state. That requires a great deal of money. If you shut off the oil revenues, the monarchy will be overthrown. Accordingly a threat to shut off the oil revenues is something that the Houthis want to take credit for.
As to the damage to Iran, There is a post above where I explained why they might want to take that risk.
The Russians and the Chinese definitely do not want another war. Both of them fear of the emergence of terrorists, such as happened with both Iraq and Syria.
I have not been focused on this issue..I have just come to it from previous focus, or foci/focuses. hahaha!
I saw your argument except and apparent I do not start from where you do. all activity, reactionary, initiatory, are usually driven by a basic and crucial causative..i.e the risk must be commensurate to cause and benefit.
an attack pn the Iran by the Zionists/USA places all the marbles on the table…ALL!
what has placed all the marbles at risk: the continuation of the empire or its supplanting by a multi-polar world, in which the socialist revolutionary potential gets loose in the world ending up in varied but global popular democracy.
there has to be some basic, simple yet all consuming and totally explanatory logic to this vast destructive potential that outstrips all you point to. and to my way of reasoning that is the issue we are dealing with..the last effort the west can make in effort to save its global domination..knocking out the BRI !!
and to do that the weakest BRI link militarily is Iran. and we know that Iran is not really weak militarily..in fact are so strong that the only way the Zionist/USA can defeat them is to resort to nuclear weapons. the Zionist/USA are surely aware of this military fact and yet they are ready… ‘locked and loaded!’
again to my way or reasoning that means, that nuclear option has been considered and the USA/Israel are prepared and ready to use nuclear weapons on Iran. they are going to knock Iran out of the water and stop the BRI if they can. and if China and Russia intervenes on the side of Iran then we have nuclear armageddon…a Sampson Option in expression
the empire is losing..has lost. they are not prepared to accept losing, will not accept a loss..cannot afford to lose. we know that militarily the empire cannot match the east in conventional military force, that technologically and by manpower the empire has been surpassed leaving them likely only with nuclear parity. and yet they are prepared to fight. is’t the conclusion obvious
Iran may be the most important and crucial BRI nexus. countless billions of BRI money has been poured into Iran. the point is to knock out Iran and stop BRI..set back BRI so far the empire may buy time to recover and dominate again
seems logical to me given the Zionist/Americans I have known all my life
Yes, it is something that worries me also. I worry that instead of accepting multipolarity, the people who are in charge in the west may very well blunder themselves right into armageddon. As The Saker says: “there are people in the US who are that crazy.”
Unfortunately, what the Saker says is true. There are people in the West who are that crazy. But I don’t think that Trump is one of them. I remember when Trump went to bomb Syria based on the allegation that chemical weapons had been used by Syria. The Russians told Trump that an attack on Russian assets would result in a counterattack by Russia. I remember going to bed that night wondering if it was my last night on earth. Apparently, Trump and Putin made a deal that some meaningless air attacks would be launched and Putin would not retaliate.
Both the Iranians and the Houthis want to stop the war in Yemen. The way to do that is to show the Saudis that continuing the war will result in unacceptable damage to the Saudis. The Saudis monarchy is very unpopular in Saudi Arabia. The substantial Saudi population is only kept in check by a combination of force and an expensive welfare state. Both of which cost lots of money money. Thus, any threat to the Saudi revenues is a threat to the continuation of the monarchy. Accordingly, the Houthis would want to take credit for the ability to shut down oil revenues.
As to why Iran would risk a war, I posted a long post above as to the reasons. And as Anaan pointed out above:
“The sanctions have backed Iran into corner and will only weaken Iran over time: it is in Iran’s interest to hit while they’re still strong enough to do so and while the military alliance against them are not fully prepared and Trump is at his most vulnerable (teetering economic performance just before an election with a base that wants him to pull out of wars not start a massive one).”
As to China and Russia, neither want a war. They both have substantial muslim populations. Russia in south west Russia and China in Xinjiang Province. Both of them are afraid that war based terrorism will spread to their countries.
“We are not aware of any information that points to Iran,” Kono said during a press briefing, opposing Saudi and Trump administration suggestions that Iran was to blame for the recent attack on Saudi Aramco facilities.
“We believe the Houthis carried out the attack based on the statement claiming responsibility,” Kono said.”
While the froggies, or rather, toadies, take the slimy route:
“Up to now France doesn’t have proof permitting it to say that these drones came from such and such a place, and I don’t know if anyone has proof,” said Le Drian. “We need a strategy of de-escalation for the area, and any move that goes against this de-escalation would be a bad move for the situation in the region.”
To which he added:
“Yemen’s rebels have announced they have triggered this attack. That is not very credible, relatively speaking”, the minister told journalists.”
That last para from:
Paris Doubts That Yemeni Houthis Could Attack Saudi Oil Compounds – Foreign Minister
Obviously, the french quisl….er, petains are planning to blame Iran, but want to wait for some zio-phony investigation to appear rightious in doing so.
Months and months ago I remember watching Mohammad Marandi on Cross Talk on RT and fellow panelist Jamal Khashoggi was just jumping up and down to shut him down the whole time. The segment was mostly about the war against Northern Yemen. Lavelle at the end gave Mohammed the last word. Mohammad sounded compassionate to Khashoggi and asked him why he was so strongly defending the Saudi Arabian government who wanted him dead. And Lavelle closed it off. It was a very valid question and even more so after Khashoggi was murdered.
For this recent talk was very circular. But that is the nature of a predicaments, which is what we appear to be in now. Predicaments go around in circles. Sure sounds simple, just end the Yemen war and quit trying to overthrow the government of Syria. But neither the US, the Saudis or Israel want to transition to a more stable balanced position in the world. They have to be the GUIDING light to the world, the ONE true version of Islam, and the vast bulk of the Jewish Israelis want to not only call all Palestineans cockroaches, they want to either squash them or send them elsewhere. The problem is if you keep crawling further out on a limb, eventually it will fall.
But it is inescapable, wherever the attack was launched from, CENTCOM and Saudi defenses were not up to the task, which begs the question of where else they would not be up to the task. One salient question is when did Saudi and CENTCOM detect the incoming strike.
But yes, the true story that needs to be discussed is how the war crimes against Yemen can cease.
“What must be deeply troubling for the Saudis is that their lifeline oil economy seems to be defenceless – despite having spent hundreds of billions of dollars on US anti-missile systems. Months after Donald Trump took office in early 2017, recall how he boasted about the Saudis buying over $100 billion in Pentagon weaponry.
That’s why VP Mike Pence’s stirring words of “defending allies” sound ridiculous.
It also suggests that’s why US intelligence and military officials are hurriedly trying to blame Iran for carrying out the latest attacks. If the rag-tag Houthi rebels from war-torn Yemen can penetrate US-backed air defences to demolish Saudi oil infrastructure, then American anti-missile technology is more over-rated and much worse in practice than many had already suspected.
President Trump has been a little more circumspect about blaming Iran for the air assaults, but senior administration officials like Pence and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Defense Secretary Mark Esper have come out forcefully claiming that Iran is responsible. Iran denies any involvement and says that the US is “in denial” about the fact that the Yemenis are capable and entitled to defend themselves in a more-than-four-year military operation launched on their country by the US-backed Saudi military coalition in March 2015.”
Since we are committing the original sin of uninformed civilian speculation, I have been thinking along these lines:
As Mike from Jersey points out, there is a possibility that Iran does want hot war as getting into a war with Iran would be worse for America than Iran at this time. Also, it is true that the see their window of opportunity to respond closing, due to sanctions and pressure fro the US. What is interesting, though, is how the Iranians play the EU and it’s individual member states against the USA, and each other.
The EU is what is threatening the petrodollar, not the Yuan or Ruble. The EU is keenly aware that if the USA and Iran get into a hot war that it could be their golden moment to buck the yoke of the USA in europe, form an EU military, and manifest as a superpower in earnest, taking reserve currency status in the process. They could even have a pre-negotiated petro-euro deal waiting for the day when USA falls for the trap. These attacks could easily be intel from some EU country, probably German if I had to guess.
For Iran, playing the EU against the USA politically is cheap and can give them some options, when they are otherwise hard up for options. Same goes for other US allies like Japan, who reject the Pompeo narrative ‘Iran did it’.
Macron and Trump seem to have a bit of a sword fighting thing going on. Trump has made a consistent habit of disrespecting European officials, he dissed French wine (nearly fighting words for the French), and he and America are seen more unpopularity than ever in Europe. Now is a good time to drive wedges between the EU and the USA. And Iran is keen to drive those wedges, as they have many options to do so.
(I will say, Larchmonter445, your comments are usually well-informed and constructive. I also see you trying to gate keep and keep this excellent site clean of trolls and noobs, which I appreciate. I think Mike has a valid line of reasoning here, and I think it’s worth exploring. Now that the idea has been opened up a bit by other commenters, I would like to hear your views on this hypothesis)
Putin is right, again. The world is not leaving the US dollar-the dollar is leaving the world. Thanks to Donald ‘Self-Inflicted’ Trump, Gawd bless ‘im!
“The American tried to minimize the operation. We assure you today that the destruction of the targeted facilities is far greater than what was acknowledged … The American tried to publish fabricated pictures of the aftermath of the operation as part of its attempts to minimize it,” the spokesman said.
As for the operation details, the spokesman revealed that the attack was launched from three different positions within Yemen. New Qasef-3 unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) took off from the first position, the long-range Samad-3 UAVs took off from the second and what he described as “jet-powered UAVs” were launched from the last position.
The spokesman said that other UAVs were used as decoys to distract and jam Saudi air-defense systems and radars.
The Samad-3 UAV was revealed during the recent Martyr Saleh al-Samad Exhibition for Yemeni Military Industries. However, Qasef-3 and the mysterious jet-powered UAVs have not been presented, so far.”
its a question of Balancing the logic..Attack Iran and hope that the Chinese/Russians stand-by and do nothing. and if they are then they are all prepared to die.
the west knows they will have to use nuclear bombs on Iran..that will likely occur within 24 hours of attack as all the USA has in the pacific/Middle East lies in ruins
Action and risk must be balanced..is always balanced. we are not playing within any limits in this one that I can see. the USA has only the ultimate limits it can count on..nuclear weapons.
by all accounts the USA has no more conventional winning possibilities anymore, anywhere in the world… what with s-3, 4 and 5 hundreds proliferating..with home grown missile technologies burgeoning, backed by committed and jihadist motivated populations that rather die that submit to the empire anymore
also…I do not think the Russians and Chinese can afford to stand by this time and watch Iran burn. it is altogether too much this time..too much is on the table. it is my estimation that we have arrived at the limit, the boundary of possibilities in and of horrid and routine co-existence with the empire. it is either the empire stands down this time, compromises, saves face if possible and walks away or we are likely fried
there are some in the empire like that, would compromise. not those who dominate however. fingers crossed. but in these circumstance Iran would have to be insane to invite attack. it is always insane to invite attack. maybe you invite a Pearl Harbor….one off-mainland port in a vast country..to go back and soak the fool who was tricked into attack
Iran is no Pear Harbor. the USA will hit Iran with all the USA has..backed up by what Israel has to offer. to invite anything of the sort would be totally insane..a condition of mind and emotion I could never accuse the Ayatollahs of
ben sampson on September 19, 2019 · at 12:55 pm EST/EDT
finally to invite and plan fort such an attack you would have to be sure the enemy would limit their attack in ways that would leave you able enough to go on, and regain your strength and come again
I can assure you Sir! that any attack on Iran by the USA will know no limits at all. the USA would pulverize Iran from the start, pinpoint attack to kill, destroy, eliminate as many Iranians as possible..tens of millions, all their millions if the USA could.
I see your argument but I cant make sense out of it. this will not be war with Davy Crocket rifles.
it absolutely makes no sense to invite attack, to allow attack and plan for it in the current world. with current weaponry: all of that is out the window of possibility and common sense
a nation has one double option.. to attack, or defend the nation fully if attacked.
The USA can only resort to Nuclear weapons, they failed in Iraq twice, still there, failed in Yemen giving thier best weapons to SA and still loosing. Gave all the best weapons and money to support the Apartheid Occupation of Palestine and the Genocide of its peoples, still there. Murdered millions of N. Koreans, how’d that work out? I wont even do Syria, and you think the US will just wipe Iran off the map……………………..evangeical delussions! Oh yeah, and suing for peace with some cavemen up in Afghanistan………..no offence to Afghanian and its peoples.
this seems to me like a troll leprechaun..a comment to elicit further comment for whatever reason. well you win anyway. here goes..do whatever you want to, or intend to do with it .
if the USA could wipe Iran off the map they would. all is at stake.
America used nuclear weapons before on the already defeated Japanese.
the argument is just that..their empire is on the table… what can they do to save it..what can they do to save it?
what is supplanting the empire is BRI. Iran is a nexus if BRI..the weakest militarily of the 3 main drivers or BRI Russia. China, Iran.
The Zionist /USA focus has been on Iran for the longest while, their focus laser-like, seemingly unreasonably so what is the logic that explains it all…there must be some basic simple and comprehensive logic to it?
BRI! that is the challenge to the empire. the attack is on BRI..and Iran is the conduit.
there appears to be a bit of nuance you are deliberately ignoring..the way and purpose for America’s wars all the way along. those wars were not wars to win as such but were initiated and deliberately dragged on to feed those in the empire who fed off wars and war production. they won profitably..have won for generations over all the wars. america’s wars were industrial wars..all of them
when America enjoyed technological superiority America could have pulverized all those nations, destroyed them..indeed did destroy then for few have recovered by now after the wars.
now america has lost technological superiority and will be defeated conventionally by middle countries. and also the involvement in war with them is now an expense that america can no longer support. everything now contains quagmire implications for the good ole’ USA that it cannot deal with.
America is losing that’s why. and the agents of its loss are the coming countries pushing multi-polarity..a cooperative concept of nations working together for mutual benefit, that is a product of all the socialist/Marxist movement of the pas, and the global spread of advanced technology especially in industrialization. the world among nations now can work in any reasonable capitalist sense only in multi-polarity, cooperation and mutual benefit
this is of course a short step from general revolutionary change from the ground up in which ownership of society passes into the hands of the people..the ordinary people, those who work, run the society by their labor take over and create popular democracies everywhere, systems of social organization in which the people decide all issues…and evolve the forms of social organization that make such social functioning possible.
human evolution to this point, all that humanity has developed, all we now know of the world, the universe how we came to be..how the world-universe actually is, actually works and functions and how we must live in it, in order to survive in it…all of that demands forms of social organization opposed to capitalism or humanity will not survive. capitalism is now opposed to human survival..kills all that humanity must develop to improves its chances of going on indefinitely. people in the developing world know what they must do to help themselves but every time they try to help themselves capitalism overthrows their efforts, kills them in the proceeds..then blames them for their failure
that is suicidal behavior, shuts down human progress, shuts down research and development, the spread of education and knowledge of life of the development of human skill and technological response as we come to grips with what it means to survive in universal reality as we prove more and more of what reality is.
capitalism kills by making bad food for the populations to eat for profit..systems of health to max medical profits at the expense of the human body. everywhere it can be easily observed how the system by which we live diverges from the routine and normal well being of humanity, killing humanity, shortening life, threatening the very existence of our species simply for financial profit..eliminating the chances of good life, of the development of understanding what a good life..or the good life.. is.. and to create the means to achieve and live it
this is the stage we are at and why we are faced with an all consuming crises, capitalism is global and the response to it, the opposition to capitalism is likewise global. humanity has just about arrived at the limits of the struggle between capitalism and what must replace it..capitalism has developed to its potential, to its limit and boundary, and human society must now evolve beyond capitalism to create the social organizations that can use our achieved advanced stage to its best, maximum use in the interest of the human species
the BRI is an advance for human society, a break with the old exploitative ways that can no longer work..that save humanity from itself. the BRI is progressive enough to take humanity forward to the day when such organization at national levels are replaced by revolutionary democratic society that will be the real progressive deal, what would take humanity the furthest.
the current leaders of the east are great men and women who have recognized the progress that is needed..do not have fully fledged revolutionary opportunity but are using what exists to move society forward. in time humanity may look back at Zi and Putin, the Iranian leadership, as great men in the service of humanity, who did their parts in setting up the human future effectively
So accordingly the mkt goes down tomorrow or most of your comment was selective interpretation, or mkt makers are really clueless and the mkt goes up just to show who, who is the boss?
capitalism can no longer make any positive use of human achievement in the interest of humanity. we can argue that capitalism never resulted in such positive use of human achievement.. but we are here currently with an advanced technology so we must have accomplished something during capitalism. but that day is done.
for capitalism to go on it must engage in an orgy of the comprehensive destruction of humanity, depopulation, miss-education of the people, engineering of humanity and the environment and its content. capitalism must literally cut to the world, the planet itself, into a shape fit for its domination in perpetuity. but that wont work, will result in a faster extinction of humanity short of global nuclear war
capitalism has begun such a horrific process and we are at the point of confrontation with this..the limit of capitalism. the end of its positive potential as it seeks to morph into Brave New World. it is likely take humanity down in global war at this point because the people cannot give in to the capitalist future for the human species. it is no future at all…Brave New World
the war on Iran must be stopped on the american side. for humanity to survive somehow the people of the west must stop this war. humanity cannot afford this war! there is too much at stake. the BRI must not be stopped..it is the most progressive social movement going right now.
this is a war to stop all human progress… to subsume humanity in a backward spiral in order to save the social domination of the western oligarchy. that is all it is to save..their power, elitist power. it is the most backward project imaginable the saving of western elitism… the most disgusting and unholy stream of consciousness that exists
Somehow it seems to me that the USA doesn’t have much money to go to war with Iran. the war still requires a lot of money and strong sponsors. There is no american money for the war. So even nuclear weapons are a bit pointless except as a means of genocide. I don’t believe the American elite wants it because it’s really crazy. Nevertheless Iran is part of the planet earth and its inhabitants are inhabitants of the planet Earth. just like the Americans are. I am concerned about the use of nuclear weapons that are not motivated by money and lost battles but by other motives such as Kashmir. For the first two cases, some crude logic could be drawn, it might even be manageable. But if India and Pakistan go to war for Cashmer, i’m sure they will use nuclear weapons. In the Middle East, all players are already profiled and it is possible to pursue some high risk policy and even wars because of some results. but as WWIII, which would capture most of the globe, had not already erupted, it could be said that everything is under some control. but India and Pakistan are totally unpredictable. Dangerously unpredictable. Who takes care of them?
Another false flag operation? The neocon cabal wants to make sure that Trump will stay on the track for war with Iran in his second term
https://failedevolution.blogspot.com/2019/09/another-false-flag-operation-neocon.html
I honestly think that there are five possible culprits as to who did it. In order of likelihood:
1) The Houthis – for obvious reasons.
2) Mossad – to provoke a war against Iran by the US. The Israelis would sit back and watch.
3) Iran – to provoke an attack by the US, so that they can 1) destroy Saudi production 2) shut off Hormuz and thus collapse the Western Economy. The Democratic Party would seize on ensuing economic disaster, Trump would be history and the JCPOA would be permanently reinstated.
4) United States – a rogue agency action meant to provoke a war.
5) Saudi Arabia – to provoke a US war against Iran while simultaneously raising the price of oil. I think that this one is the least likely since Iran is ready to completely destroy Saudi oil facilities if a war breaks out.
More likely than not, it was the Houthis using Iranian technology.
Flaws in your thinking up this list:
This one is impossible because the Houthis and Iran would be screaming about it, not giving the Houthis credit for it.
2) Mossad – to provoke a war against Iran by the US. The Israelis would sit back and watch.
Same with 4 and 5. Impossible given the reality that the Houthis claim it and Iran has not claimed false flag by 2,4 or 5.
Iran does not want a war brought down upon itself. This is just silliness.
The Iranians, since the breaking of JCPOA by the US and sanctions, have been quite measured and strategic in their actions. Look at the tankers episodes, and the downing of the drone but not downing the spy plane with 35 Americans aboard.
Study the Iranians much more closely, I suggest.
I disagree completely.
First, if Mossad did it the Iranians might not even know who did it. The Saudis might not know either. Thus, the Houthis take credit and know one knows the better.
Second, don’t discount that the Iranians might want a war. Iran studied what happened with Iraq. The US bled Iraq dry with year after year of sanctions and then invaded after Iraq was weak. Iran can’t allow that to happen to them.
Additionally, the hardliners in Iran now have the upper hand since they warned against the agreeing to the JCPOA saying that “you can’t trust the United States.” Now, they have credibility, while the more moderate people who cut the deal don’t have credibility. Moreover, yes, war would bring down harm on Iran but so will long term sanctions (see what happened to Iraq). Iraq was not just invaded but humiliated. Not many people know this but the Iraqi Constitution was basically dictated by the United States. Iran does not want to suffer that fate.
Finally, Iran studied asymmetrical warfare very carefully. Iranian rockets were designed to have 1200 mile range – long enough to force American carriers to retreat beyond their effective range or be sunk. So, how does the US obtain air supremacy – which was the key to winning in Iraq. They can’t do it with carriers. So how do they do it? Not with bombers from Diego Garcia since Iran has the S300. Not with sorties from Iraq or Turkey or even Qatar since those countries won’t allow it. Iran has carefully thought this out and has prepared for this for a long time.
Why do you think that Trump did not retaliate against either the drone shoot down or destruction of the Saudi oil facilities. He didn’t because he was told he couldn’t without grave harm to the US. Specifically, he was told about the derivatives issue. The Pentagon informed Trump that if Hormuz is blocked that it would not only raise the price of oil, wreak havoc with the oil supply but also trigger trillions of dollars in derivative contracts, potentially crashing the entire American banking system.
Therefore, the harm that the Iranians are faced with (stand off missiles getting through air defense) is not as bad as the harm that the west is faced with – which is a total economic collapse.
That’s why Trump has done nothing, even after bombing Syria over nothing. He now knows that Iran he has walked himself into a huge trap.
Iran being behind it is not far fetched at all.
As far as the Saudis are concerned, I agree, probably not.
But don’t rule out rogue elements in the US. For a while in Syria, CIA backed rebels were fighting Pentagon backed rebels in Syria. The fact that this happened is not even seriously disputed in the United States. It was basically admitted that the President had lost control of the war to agencies of the government which were fighting proxy wars with themselves.
Right, the trade in dollars of oil could be cut so drastically as to cut out the money changing profiteers, reducing the circulation of dollars and the ability of all those dollar denominated debts to be repaid in a timely manner. It could reek havoc w/the U.S. economic derivatives and swamp the financial system with further defaulted payments.
We don’t feel the pain of the billions of 90 days or greater student loan debt, cars and houses just file through bankruptcy, but the commercial sector slowdown could rival 08 just as the FED runs out of bullets and the ECB has only 20 billion a month ability’s to pick up the slack. We cant afford to go to war and lose the oil trade.
Alabama,
I hadn’t even thought about the Petrodollar issue, but you are right. That would add to the derivative triggering and the overall impact of shutting down of oil shipments.
Mike from Jersey
You stated ” Iran being behind it is not far fetched at all”. This is virtually impossible. Iranians, just like Russians, have highly capable analysts. The last thing Iran would do was attack Saudi oil facilities and incriminate itself. By now it is an accepted fact that Houthis did indeed fire those drones, humiliating both the Saudis and the US Military Industrial Complex, which produces the Patriot Missile System. Saudi Arabia does not possess the Russian Pantzir missile system, specially designed to fight cruise missiles, and whose deadly efficiency was proven in Syria. Trump and Pompeo therefore accuse Iran in order to save face, while at the same time analyzing the possibility of attacking the country, as decreed by the neocons in the US. If the US does indeed attack Iran, we shall get a very ugly situation.
B.F.
I actually think that it is probably the Houthis. But I don’t think it is “beyond doubt.” I have read many other of your posts and I know that you are quite sophisticated, sophisticated enough to know that these days we simply can’t trust the media consensus. We have to sort through the undisputed facts and come to our own conclusions. That is why I think it probably was the Houthis. But Iran’s involvement (or Israel’s) should not be ruled out.
I agree, by the way, that Pompeo’s finger pointing at Iran is, in part, an attempt at both “face saving” and “war mongering.” But the fact that the US has specifically blamed Iran and then did absolutely nothing, proves my point about Iran’s asymmetrical strength.
I believe the overnight repo market is getting nervous. Look for plutocrats flying to New Zealand for ‘holidays’ in their Doomsday bunkers.
L445
“Flaws in your thinking up this list:”
It’s deliberate. The point is to reinforce the zionazi-gay propaganda line that Iran was behind the attack, that Iran attacked saudi arabia. One can see how the “commenter” and co-workers steered their “discussion” in the later posts, to reach such a conclusion. They frame it as a critique of american policy, but the real point is to reinforce the zionazi-gay propaganda line smearing Iran.
This is a standard websayanim spamming technique, guardianistas specialize in it.
Lol vot tak…not everyone who are sharing their far fetched ideas are zionazi-gay propagandists or spammers. I think you underestimate people’s broad imagination ;-).
Thanks vot tak.
Yeah.
It’s quite obvious We have *binary beersheba b@stard babies* bothering Us-Adults in the room.
The use of am.colloquial English confirms it’s a bunch of kids workin’ for idf.
Cheers Veritas X-
Here in Austfailia the presstitutes will find some way to accuse China. They blame them for everything else.
Mike, I think you should stick to number 1 on your list :-). As Larch mentioned
What is interesting, is from where did the attacks originate ? All the way from Yemen, or from assets closer by within Saudi Arabia or Iraq for example ? Were Iranian backed Iraqi groups involved ?
I am almost sure that the Iranians would not risk to implicate themselves in the attack, but they could have helped in delivering weapons, advising, intelligence, etc.
In any case, congratulations to the Houthis and their allies on accomplishing one of their missions !
In the telecast the Iranian professor said that Obama himself did not abide by the JCPOA – even though Obama approved the deal.
I have heard that allegation before but I don’t know its basis.
Can anyone tell me the manner in which the Obama administration tried to frustrate the JCPOA?
Informative links would be appreciated.
Prolly refused (or continually delayed) to pay back that money frozen in U.S. banks after the 79 revolution, the world court ordered the payback, and as usual, the U.S. never did (until early in the Trump administration that then opened the door for wild speculations as to the reasons for payment).
I haven’t found any record of formal complaints against the Obama administration by the Iranian government regarding the JCPOA. Generally, the Obama administration was regarded in the US as being too soft on Iran, for example:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2017/01/10/one-final-iran-blunder-by-obama/
However, this link
https://financialtribune.com/articles/national/75461/us-in-bad-faith-trying-to-minimize-iran-s-jcpoa-gains
Together with this:
https://nationalinterest.org/feature/do-recent-us-sanctions-against-iran-violate-the-jcpoa-22482
On the Obama administration policy may provide a clue.
Based on the above it appears that this may have been a disagreement on the implementation of the agreement particularly regarding sanctions.
The Obama and later Trump administrations retained the option of continuing or imposing sanctions against Iran for issues supposedly not related to the nuclear issue. These concerned human rights, the support of terrorism and Iran’s ballistic missile program. If Iran had the expectation that all sanctions would end after the agreement was enacted this may have caused the disagreement.
Thanks for the links.
The thought of Thanatopia sanctioning anyone for ‘human rights’, support of terrorism and possessing ballistic missiles, when the USA is the greatest desecrator of human rights, ever, the greatest supporter of every type of terrorism, including the economic terrorism of sanctions, and is armed to the teeth with every sort of missile, is hypocrisy almost beyond belief. Except that it is so normal.
True, but for me not the point. The JCPOA halted the seemingly inevitable march towards war with Iran. We are back on that road again since Trump withdrew US participation. I’m not a particular fan of Obama, but I do believe in giving credit where it is due. Obama faced overwhelming opposition in the Congress supported with a joint address by Netanyahu. The deal was not a fair agreement from the point of view of Iran but any Presidential policy requires some degree of support to succeed.
The US elite never abide by any agreements if it suits them not to. They are ‘Exceptional’ after all.
The professor Mohamed Morandi is a intellectual that talk just with true words. And I think that is morality acceptable that anyone in the world goes to help the yemeni people in any way.
Speculation, speculation, speculation… Compete with f n waste of time.
EVERYBODY with an opinion…
or accusation.
–
I thought the Professor was polite, courteous, concise and accurate.
At 6:40 you can see the good Professor had had enough.
They “anchor” acted as if she had just graduated High School.
–
RT (America)- Its usual self. Regurgitate whatever the West has to spew, no matter how ridiculous or outright idiotic the claim, and then try to ‘pretend’ its not biased, with it inane questions/statements.
-trying to keep its operating license in the US
–
This kind of crap is the reason I stopped watching RT many years ago. At its beginning it was almost fully staffed with ex-BBC clowns.
Hasn’t gotten any better.
Former CNN clown/obfuscator/bullshitter Rick Sanchez now at RT America, need I saw more.
You said… “RT (America)- Its usual self. Regurgitate whatever the West has to spew, no matter how ridiculous or outright idiotic the claim, and then try to ‘pretend’ its not biased.”
This is truly the most bizarre comment I have ever encountered on this site…I don’t even know where to start except to say that I believe this sort of thinking belongs in a very dark damp place under a rock.
Hello Mike,
I think your reasoning is quite good, especially point number 3. However, I take your points more from a point of view as consequences of actions if the specifically listed scenario were found to be true.
The sanctions have backed Iran into corner and will only weaken Iran over time: it is in Iran’s interest to hit while they’re still strong enough to do so and while the military alliance against them are not fully prepared and Trump is at his most vulnerable (teetering economic performance just before an election with a base that wants him to pull out of wars not start a massive one).
Everyone admits that the Trump sanctions on Iran have been surprisingly effective (including sources inimical to the US). If Iran has concluded that they are going to inevitably attacked in a devastating way at some point in the future, then precipitating a hot war before the aggressor is ready would be logical (and if Trump can have his presidency destroyed, even better, because it will also politically deter his replacement from such an idiotic adventure).
Well done Mike.
Thanks.
Trump has painted himself into a corner. As I noted in a post above the Pentagon informed Trump that if Hormuz is blocked that it would not only raise the price of oil, wreak havoc with the oil supply but also trigger trillions of dollars in derivative contracts, potentially crashing the entire American banking system.
On Monday, the American banking system faced a temporary liquidity crisis. The Federal Reserve had to inject about 50 billion into the banking system to stabilize the banks. I heard one analyst speculate that the Saudis might have made a large withdrawal in response to the bombings. If that happened and had such and effect on the system, imagine what the full scale war might do. On the other hand, if the Saudis didn’t make a huge withdrawal the the system might be showing signs of inherent systemic weakness. Either way, Trump has serious problems.
Trump can always blame the Fed for raising rates (and full faith and confidence that goes with it) while the rest of the western world was operating mostly in a negative rates environment. He wont take the war route, and can lay blame at the Feds feet if the economy goes south for any reason(s), he has that greater fool in his hip pocket and with the fools goes time to sort it all out. I don’t see the problem(s) here.
If the economy tanks (without there being a war), I fully expect Trump to blame the Federal Reserve.
That might work since probably not 1 in 50 Americans even understand what the Federal Reserve is, much less what is going on with economy.
However, if the economy tanks because of a war, Trump is history.
I think you could just as easily substitute the human race for Trump if it came to war, b/c by then it would be a known that the race is going in the wrong direction. And there are always consequences to be paid by someone(s) once going in the wrong direction, no matters who you are.
Hi Mike,
Just a couple of clarifications:
1) If Iran did precipitate this attack (via proxies like that Houthis or Arab Shia militias in Iraq, or any combination of the aforementioned), JCPOA is dead. In fact, it always was “dead” or a lie foisted by the duplicitous treaty breaking West. I believe they only intended to use it to stall and drag out things to slow down Iran’s nuclear program and continue to grind down Iran’s economy, while simultaneously trying to instigate internal revolts to remove the current “regime” and then pillage them and balkanize them to poverty. The whole thing stank of a “good cop/ bad cop” setup to keep screwing Iran.
What these idiots, in some corridors of power in the West, don’t realize is that Iran is highly focused, ruthless and a very cunning player; they invented a lot of what the West considered modern state craft (if Iran could telegraph their thoughts to the amateurs in the Western Elite, I imagine it would be something like: “I’m your father, who do you think you’re kidding?”). That’s why Javed Zarif was on the ropes, at one point, within the Iranian system. His opponents within the Iranian leadership (correctly) made the argument that any deal made with West was worthless. He, on the other hand, made the argument let’s give it a shot, if they screw us the whole world will see it. And that’s where we are now.
In a way, Trump has been (inadvertently) more honest about the final intent the West had towards Iran: destruction of Iran’s sovereignty and intelligencia, wholesale pillaging of their resources, and statrapi (but only after Iran lost millions of civilians) . (Like a bull in a china shop) Trump’s actions forced Iran to prepare for a military attack rather than be lulled by a deceptive fake deal called JCPOA. At the same time, he accelerated the schedule for a western attack before the West had lined up all its ducks to carryout the final screw job on Iran. That’s the real reason that the weasels in the Democratic Party, establishment Republicans, deep state bureaucrats and the even more weasely EU trash were going hysterical with rage when Trump withdrew from the fake-deal. He blew their strategy. And now Trump doesn’t have an exit strategy, he’s backed himself into a corner, and greatly weakened the West’s hand.
2) I think Iran has very shrewdly, used proxies to support their own foreign policy and to support their national security. That’s why I don’t believe it’s likely that they directly launched the attacks from Iran or used Iranian military to do so. It’s much more useful to use proxies because of the uncertainty it sows in their adversary and it partially insulates Iran from international blame. They are only doing to their adversaries what their adversaries do to them (using proxies and supporting legitimate liberation movements which are beholding to them).
3) I do think there is logic to Iran wanting to call Trump’s bluff before Iran continues to weaken and bleed under the sanctions (really one should call it what it really is: a virtual air, sea and land blockade, which is an overt act of war). If an act of war is being openly carried out against you, and at no cost to your enemy, and at crippling cost to you, then you’d be a fool to let this one-sided affair continue: you’d need to create conditions where your enemy started to pay a price too. It would be even better if you could do so under the radar. However, if you can’t do it under the radar, then there is logic to having it out overtly while you still can. (especially when you know that your enemy intends to destroy you, your society and carry out actions that will kill millions of your people for decades to come and denude your people of theirr resources and thereby condemning your nation’s progeny to generations of poverty and decline. Especially, if you witnessed it happening to your immediate neighbours …then if you neglected to act, you’d have to be a very special type of fool).
Contrast Iran’s intelligent and rational strategy to that to the idiot Saddam Hussein: he just sat there, like a sitting duck, while the demons Bush and Thatcher (a proud Anglo instigator of that war) built up forces against him over the next 6 months. He just sat there and got his country crushed.
Dont forget kadaffi, he just handed them the gold and then asked Hillary to send the bandits around to get him.
What are these leaders thinking?
Anaam,
I like the comment:
“I’m your father, who do you think you’re kidding?”
I think Iran also understands that the whole world is watching these events. Throughout the world major nations like Brazil (the people of Brazil, not the government) and India are seeing the West get badly outplayed. For instance, the seizure and release of the Iranian tanker. Though the tanker was delayed, eventually Britain had to back down and the oil got to Syria. Britain’s ranting that “Iran promised that they oil would not go to Syria” was little more than face saving. But the whole world saw it for what it was.
I don’t think that the leaders in the West understands that the Iranians are engaging in their own hybrid warfare and part of that warfare is to destroy the myth of Western invincibility.
I agree, but how could US sanctions not be ‘effective’? They are vicious and cowardly, in true Yankee style, and the US has, completely illegally, forced other states to join in, by the threat of economic retaliation for non-compliance. Evil piled on evil, and put into effect by the sanctions department of the US Treasury, run, as is traditional, by a Zionazi Jew-a truly disinterested person, no doubt.
This is the US “Suez Moment”.
No way for the US to win except maybe by using nuclear weapons.
I think that you are right.
Signs of weakness of the American empire are everywhere. The rise of China, the development of superior weaponry by Russia (on a much lower budget, to boot), the fractures in both the alliance with Europe and within Europe itself, the systemic corruption and the total absence of statementship in the United States.
We might be at a pivot point.
The Iranians might very well be thinking that also. They might believe that all it takes at this point is a good push.
This issue of nuclear weapons is scary. I remember the Saker saying that there are people in the United States who are “that crazy.”
Mike
Thank you for your excellent contribution!
Unlike DGSE above, I appreciate all the speculation from such a diverse group of informed and intellectual commenters. I think the eclectic nature of this forum is invaluable and an enormous help in trying to get to the real truth of culpability in dangerous events such as what recently happened in KSA.
People of the caliber that contribute to ‘The Saker’ have formed a powerful think-tank and can be extremely effective in exposing the real perpetrators. As Leonard Cohen said…”there is a crack in everything”…well guess what… there will be lots of cracks that appear in the LSM’s current narrative.
Groups such as this and their global networks have developed the power now to actually stop wars. They now legitimately fight the drumbeating warmongers of both Government and media and expose the extreme hypocrisy of this monolithic and vicious Western hegemony.
At last the masses have a voice and the means to ferret out the truth. This Mainstreet movement is all-powerful now and will be the downfall of TPTSB [the powers that shouldn’t be]. Furthermore, this macabre collection of murderous creatures has totally underestimated this power…this will be their downfall.
I repeat again what Ross Ashcroft so eloquently said on this very subject…
“To really understand something is to be liberated from it. Humanity’s greatest ally is the self-educated individual, who has read, understood, delays their gratification, and walks around with their eyes wide open.”
Cheers and best regards from the south seas
Col
Mike
You said…
“This issue of nuclear weapons is scary. I remember the Saker saying that there are people in the United States who are “that crazy.”
Indeed there are a number that I can think of that actually form the Hegemons war council as such.
#1 SOS
#2 Outgoing Security Adviser
#3 Interim Security Adviser
#4 Perhaps the Incoming Security Adviser?…[jury still out on this one…but I have to say my hopes are not high}
#5 Vice President
This obscene group of warmongers is in turn ‘led’ by a bombastic baffoon with an ego the size of Mt Everest. When it comes to diplomacy, this clown almost makes Tony Soprano look like Mother Teriesa.
Scary times indeed
Col
The comment section following this article is essentially buggered. Well done websayanim.
Dude, what is your problem?! I see one comment, (no, two, yours and DGSE) which come off in any way ‘buggered’. Perhaps you ought to step away from the internet for a while to reset your nerves. It’s disrespectful, tacky, just unnecessary. I don’t feel that kind of behavior helps foster any productive (non-buggered) discussion. I’m surprised that Saker or the mods allowed that comment through. Are you sure it was meant for this article’s comment thread?
Seriously, why are you lashing out at us?? I learned a lot, was shown perspectives, analyses in this thread that opened my mind.
why would the Houthis stake claim for the attack if it was not their work?
why would the Iranians admit that it was the work of the Houthis were it was not the truth?
I do not see how the Iranians would want war that is going to create massive damage to their country, and critically set back the BRI investments, the war in Syria and all manner of loss I do not think is easily sustainable, or to be recovered.
how would Russia and China take to the loss of the investments and the massive set back to BRI?
it seems simple to me: the Iranians do not want war with the USA at all..and would not attack the Saudis to give the USA an excuse for to attack Iran
Ben,
Both the Iranians and Houthis want to convince the Saudis to stop the war in Yemen. A good way to do that is to show that the Saudis that continuing the war will result in unacceptable costs inflicted upon them. The Saudi ruling family is very unpopular. The people of that country (and it is a heavily populated country) are only kept under control by a combination of force and, basically, a welfare state. That requires a great deal of money. If you shut off the oil revenues, the monarchy will be overthrown. Accordingly a threat to shut off the oil revenues is something that the Houthis want to take credit for.
As to the damage to Iran, There is a post above where I explained why they might want to take that risk.
The Russians and the Chinese definitely do not want another war. Both of them fear of the emergence of terrorists, such as happened with both Iraq and Syria.
I have not been focused on this issue..I have just come to it from previous focus, or foci/focuses. hahaha!
I saw your argument except and apparent I do not start from where you do. all activity, reactionary, initiatory, are usually driven by a basic and crucial causative..i.e the risk must be commensurate to cause and benefit.
an attack pn the Iran by the Zionists/USA places all the marbles on the table…ALL!
what has placed all the marbles at risk: the continuation of the empire or its supplanting by a multi-polar world, in which the socialist revolutionary potential gets loose in the world ending up in varied but global popular democracy.
there has to be some basic, simple yet all consuming and totally explanatory logic to this vast destructive potential that outstrips all you point to. and to my way of reasoning that is the issue we are dealing with..the last effort the west can make in effort to save its global domination..knocking out the BRI !!
and to do that the weakest BRI link militarily is Iran. and we know that Iran is not really weak militarily..in fact are so strong that the only way the Zionist/USA can defeat them is to resort to nuclear weapons. the Zionist/USA are surely aware of this military fact and yet they are ready… ‘locked and loaded!’
again to my way or reasoning that means, that nuclear option has been considered and the USA/Israel are prepared and ready to use nuclear weapons on Iran. they are going to knock Iran out of the water and stop the BRI if they can. and if China and Russia intervenes on the side of Iran then we have nuclear armageddon…a Sampson Option in expression
the empire is losing..has lost. they are not prepared to accept losing, will not accept a loss..cannot afford to lose. we know that militarily the empire cannot match the east in conventional military force, that technologically and by manpower the empire has been surpassed leaving them likely only with nuclear parity. and yet they are prepared to fight. is’t the conclusion obvious
Iran may be the most important and crucial BRI nexus. countless billions of BRI money has been poured into Iran. the point is to knock out Iran and stop BRI..set back BRI so far the empire may buy time to recover and dominate again
seems logical to me given the Zionist/Americans I have known all my life
Yes, it is something that worries me also. I worry that instead of accepting multipolarity, the people who are in charge in the west may very well blunder themselves right into armageddon. As The Saker says: “there are people in the US who are that crazy.”
Unfortunately, what the Saker says is true. There are people in the West who are that crazy. But I don’t think that Trump is one of them. I remember when Trump went to bomb Syria based on the allegation that chemical weapons had been used by Syria. The Russians told Trump that an attack on Russian assets would result in a counterattack by Russia. I remember going to bed that night wondering if it was my last night on earth. Apparently, Trump and Putin made a deal that some meaningless air attacks would be launched and Putin would not retaliate.
Still, I must admit, it worries me.
Ben,
Both the Iranians and the Houthis want to stop the war in Yemen. The way to do that is to show the Saudis that continuing the war will result in unacceptable damage to the Saudis. The Saudis monarchy is very unpopular in Saudi Arabia. The substantial Saudi population is only kept in check by a combination of force and an expensive welfare state. Both of which cost lots of money money. Thus, any threat to the Saudi revenues is a threat to the continuation of the monarchy. Accordingly, the Houthis would want to take credit for the ability to shut down oil revenues.
As to why Iran would risk a war, I posted a long post above as to the reasons. And as Anaan pointed out above:
“The sanctions have backed Iran into corner and will only weaken Iran over time: it is in Iran’s interest to hit while they’re still strong enough to do so and while the military alliance against them are not fully prepared and Trump is at his most vulnerable (teetering economic performance just before an election with a base that wants him to pull out of wars not start a massive one).”
As to China and Russia, neither want a war. They both have substantial muslim populations. Russia in south west Russia and China in Xinjiang Province. Both of them are afraid that war based terrorism will spread to their countries.
Japan shows some common sense:
Japan Says There Is No Evidence Iran Was Behind Attack on Saudi Aramco Facilities
https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201909191076835540-japan–no-evidence-iran-behind-attack-saudi-aramco-facilities/
“We are not aware of any information that points to Iran,” Kono said during a press briefing, opposing Saudi and Trump administration suggestions that Iran was to blame for the recent attack on Saudi Aramco facilities.
“We believe the Houthis carried out the attack based on the statement claiming responsibility,” Kono said.”
While the froggies, or rather, toadies, take the slimy route:
“Up to now France doesn’t have proof permitting it to say that these drones came from such and such a place, and I don’t know if anyone has proof,” said Le Drian. “We need a strategy of de-escalation for the area, and any move that goes against this de-escalation would be a bad move for the situation in the region.”
To which he added:
“Yemen’s rebels have announced they have triggered this attack. That is not very credible, relatively speaking”, the minister told journalists.”
That last para from:
Paris Doubts That Yemeni Houthis Could Attack Saudi Oil Compounds – Foreign Minister
https://sputniknews.com/world/201909191076836764-paris-doubts-that-yemeni-houthis-could-attack-saudi-oil-compounds—foreign-minister/
Obviously, the french quisl….er, petains are planning to blame Iran, but want to wait for some zio-phony investigation to appear rightious in doing so.
Months and months ago I remember watching Mohammad Marandi on Cross Talk on RT and fellow panelist Jamal Khashoggi was just jumping up and down to shut him down the whole time. The segment was mostly about the war against Northern Yemen. Lavelle at the end gave Mohammed the last word. Mohammad sounded compassionate to Khashoggi and asked him why he was so strongly defending the Saudi Arabian government who wanted him dead. And Lavelle closed it off. It was a very valid question and even more so after Khashoggi was murdered.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Marandi So he does know a little bit about the US.
For this recent talk was very circular. But that is the nature of a predicaments, which is what we appear to be in now. Predicaments go around in circles. Sure sounds simple, just end the Yemen war and quit trying to overthrow the government of Syria. But neither the US, the Saudis or Israel want to transition to a more stable balanced position in the world. They have to be the GUIDING light to the world, the ONE true version of Islam, and the vast bulk of the Jewish Israelis want to not only call all Palestineans cockroaches, they want to either squash them or send them elsewhere. The problem is if you keep crawling further out on a limb, eventually it will fall.
But it is inescapable, wherever the attack was launched from, CENTCOM and Saudi defenses were not up to the task, which begs the question of where else they would not be up to the task. One salient question is when did Saudi and CENTCOM detect the incoming strike.
But yes, the true story that needs to be discussed is how the war crimes against Yemen can cease.
Uncle Sam Scapegoats Iran
https://sputniknews.com/columnists/201909181076833041-uncle-sam-scapegoats-iran/
“What must be deeply troubling for the Saudis is that their lifeline oil economy seems to be defenceless – despite having spent hundreds of billions of dollars on US anti-missile systems. Months after Donald Trump took office in early 2017, recall how he boasted about the Saudis buying over $100 billion in Pentagon weaponry.
That’s why VP Mike Pence’s stirring words of “defending allies” sound ridiculous.
It also suggests that’s why US intelligence and military officials are hurriedly trying to blame Iran for carrying out the latest attacks. If the rag-tag Houthi rebels from war-torn Yemen can penetrate US-backed air defences to demolish Saudi oil infrastructure, then American anti-missile technology is more over-rated and much worse in practice than many had already suspected.
President Trump has been a little more circumspect about blaming Iran for the air assaults, but senior administration officials like Pence and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Defense Secretary Mark Esper have come out forcefully claiming that Iran is responsible. Iran denies any involvement and says that the US is “in denial” about the fact that the Yemenis are capable and entitled to defend themselves in a more-than-four-year military operation launched on their country by the US-backed Saudi military coalition in March 2015.”
Since we are committing the original sin of uninformed civilian speculation, I have been thinking along these lines:
As Mike from Jersey points out, there is a possibility that Iran does want hot war as getting into a war with Iran would be worse for America than Iran at this time. Also, it is true that the see their window of opportunity to respond closing, due to sanctions and pressure fro the US. What is interesting, though, is how the Iranians play the EU and it’s individual member states against the USA, and each other.
The EU is what is threatening the petrodollar, not the Yuan or Ruble. The EU is keenly aware that if the USA and Iran get into a hot war that it could be their golden moment to buck the yoke of the USA in europe, form an EU military, and manifest as a superpower in earnest, taking reserve currency status in the process. They could even have a pre-negotiated petro-euro deal waiting for the day when USA falls for the trap. These attacks could easily be intel from some EU country, probably German if I had to guess.
For Iran, playing the EU against the USA politically is cheap and can give them some options, when they are otherwise hard up for options. Same goes for other US allies like Japan, who reject the Pompeo narrative ‘Iran did it’.
Macron and Trump seem to have a bit of a sword fighting thing going on. Trump has made a consistent habit of disrespecting European officials, he dissed French wine (nearly fighting words for the French), and he and America are seen more unpopularity than ever in Europe. Now is a good time to drive wedges between the EU and the USA. And Iran is keen to drive those wedges, as they have many options to do so.
(I will say, Larchmonter445, your comments are usually well-informed and constructive. I also see you trying to gate keep and keep this excellent site clean of trolls and noobs, which I appreciate. I think Mike has a valid line of reasoning here, and I think it’s worth exploring. Now that the idea has been opened up a bit by other commenters, I would like to hear your views on this hypothesis)
Where would we be without the guardianista chorus to keep out thoughts on the straight and narrow?
Typo: not out, but our.
Putin is right, again. The world is not leaving the US dollar-the dollar is leaving the world. Thanks to Donald ‘Self-Inflicted’ Trump, Gawd bless ‘im!
Houthis Reveal New Details About 2019 Abqaiq–Khurais attack
https://southfront.org/houthis-reveal-new-details-about-2019-abqaiq-khurais-attack/
“The American tried to minimize the operation. We assure you today that the destruction of the targeted facilities is far greater than what was acknowledged … The American tried to publish fabricated pictures of the aftermath of the operation as part of its attempts to minimize it,” the spokesman said.
As for the operation details, the spokesman revealed that the attack was launched from three different positions within Yemen. New Qasef-3 unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) took off from the first position, the long-range Samad-3 UAVs took off from the second and what he described as “jet-powered UAVs” were launched from the last position.
The spokesman said that other UAVs were used as decoys to distract and jam Saudi air-defense systems and radars.
The Samad-3 UAV was revealed during the recent Martyr Saleh al-Samad Exhibition for Yemeni Military Industries. However, Qasef-3 and the mysterious jet-powered UAVs have not been presented, so far.”
https://southfront.org/air-defense-systems-fail-all-the-time-pompeos-visit-to-saudi-arabia-turned-into-theater-of-absurd/
its a question of Balancing the logic..Attack Iran and hope that the Chinese/Russians stand-by and do nothing. and if they are then they are all prepared to die.
the west knows they will have to use nuclear bombs on Iran..that will likely occur within 24 hours of attack as all the USA has in the pacific/Middle East lies in ruins
Action and risk must be balanced..is always balanced. we are not playing within any limits in this one that I can see. the USA has only the ultimate limits it can count on..nuclear weapons.
by all accounts the USA has no more conventional winning possibilities anymore, anywhere in the world… what with s-3, 4 and 5 hundreds proliferating..with home grown missile technologies burgeoning, backed by committed and jihadist motivated populations that rather die that submit to the empire anymore
also…I do not think the Russians and Chinese can afford to stand by this time and watch Iran burn. it is altogether too much this time..too much is on the table. it is my estimation that we have arrived at the limit, the boundary of possibilities in and of horrid and routine co-existence with the empire. it is either the empire stands down this time, compromises, saves face if possible and walks away or we are likely fried
there are some in the empire like that, would compromise. not those who dominate however. fingers crossed. but in these circumstance Iran would have to be insane to invite attack. it is always insane to invite attack. maybe you invite a Pearl Harbor….one off-mainland port in a vast country..to go back and soak the fool who was tricked into attack
Iran is no Pear Harbor. the USA will hit Iran with all the USA has..backed up by what Israel has to offer. to invite anything of the sort would be totally insane..a condition of mind and emotion I could never accuse the Ayatollahs of
Never discount what Prisdent Putin says, a fools game, “we will protect our allies.” Someone’s gonna get a nasty slap up side the head.
ben sampson on September 19, 2019 · at 12:55 pm EST/EDT
finally to invite and plan fort such an attack you would have to be sure the enemy would limit their attack in ways that would leave you able enough to go on, and regain your strength and come again
I can assure you Sir! that any attack on Iran by the USA will know no limits at all. the USA would pulverize Iran from the start, pinpoint attack to kill, destroy, eliminate as many Iranians as possible..tens of millions, all their millions if the USA could.
I see your argument but I cant make sense out of it. this will not be war with Davy Crocket rifles.
it absolutely makes no sense to invite attack, to allow attack and plan for it in the current world. with current weaponry: all of that is out the window of possibility and common sense
a nation has one double option.. to attack, or defend the nation fully if attacked.
The USA can only resort to Nuclear weapons, they failed in Iraq twice, still there, failed in Yemen giving thier best weapons to SA and still loosing. Gave all the best weapons and money to support the Apartheid Occupation of Palestine and the Genocide of its peoples, still there. Murdered millions of N. Koreans, how’d that work out? I wont even do Syria, and you think the US will just wipe Iran off the map……………………..evangeical delussions! Oh yeah, and suing for peace with some cavemen up in Afghanistan………..no offence to Afghanian and its peoples.
this seems to me like a troll leprechaun..a comment to elicit further comment for whatever reason. well you win anyway. here goes..do whatever you want to, or intend to do with it .
if the USA could wipe Iran off the map they would. all is at stake.
America used nuclear weapons before on the already defeated Japanese.
the argument is just that..their empire is on the table… what can they do to save it..what can they do to save it?
what is supplanting the empire is BRI. Iran is a nexus if BRI..the weakest militarily of the 3 main drivers or BRI Russia. China, Iran.
The Zionist /USA focus has been on Iran for the longest while, their focus laser-like, seemingly unreasonably so what is the logic that explains it all…there must be some basic simple and comprehensive logic to it?
BRI! that is the challenge to the empire. the attack is on BRI..and Iran is the conduit.
there appears to be a bit of nuance you are deliberately ignoring..the way and purpose for America’s wars all the way along. those wars were not wars to win as such but were initiated and deliberately dragged on to feed those in the empire who fed off wars and war production. they won profitably..have won for generations over all the wars. america’s wars were industrial wars..all of them
when America enjoyed technological superiority America could have pulverized all those nations, destroyed them..indeed did destroy then for few have recovered by now after the wars.
now america has lost technological superiority and will be defeated conventionally by middle countries. and also the involvement in war with them is now an expense that america can no longer support. everything now contains quagmire implications for the good ole’ USA that it cannot deal with.
America is losing that’s why. and the agents of its loss are the coming countries pushing multi-polarity..a cooperative concept of nations working together for mutual benefit, that is a product of all the socialist/Marxist movement of the pas, and the global spread of advanced technology especially in industrialization. the world among nations now can work in any reasonable capitalist sense only in multi-polarity, cooperation and mutual benefit
this is of course a short step from general revolutionary change from the ground up in which ownership of society passes into the hands of the people..the ordinary people, those who work, run the society by their labor take over and create popular democracies everywhere, systems of social organization in which the people decide all issues…and evolve the forms of social organization that make such social functioning possible.
human evolution to this point, all that humanity has developed, all we now know of the world, the universe how we came to be..how the world-universe actually is, actually works and functions and how we must live in it, in order to survive in it…all of that demands forms of social organization opposed to capitalism or humanity will not survive. capitalism is now opposed to human survival..kills all that humanity must develop to improves its chances of going on indefinitely. people in the developing world know what they must do to help themselves but every time they try to help themselves capitalism overthrows their efforts, kills them in the proceeds..then blames them for their failure
that is suicidal behavior, shuts down human progress, shuts down research and development, the spread of education and knowledge of life of the development of human skill and technological response as we come to grips with what it means to survive in universal reality as we prove more and more of what reality is.
capitalism kills by making bad food for the populations to eat for profit..systems of health to max medical profits at the expense of the human body. everywhere it can be easily observed how the system by which we live diverges from the routine and normal well being of humanity, killing humanity, shortening life, threatening the very existence of our species simply for financial profit..eliminating the chances of good life, of the development of understanding what a good life..or the good life.. is.. and to create the means to achieve and live it
this is the stage we are at and why we are faced with an all consuming crises, capitalism is global and the response to it, the opposition to capitalism is likewise global. humanity has just about arrived at the limits of the struggle between capitalism and what must replace it..capitalism has developed to its potential, to its limit and boundary, and human society must now evolve beyond capitalism to create the social organizations that can use our achieved advanced stage to its best, maximum use in the interest of the human species
the BRI is an advance for human society, a break with the old exploitative ways that can no longer work..that save humanity from itself. the BRI is progressive enough to take humanity forward to the day when such organization at national levels are replaced by revolutionary democratic society that will be the real progressive deal, what would take humanity the furthest.
the current leaders of the east are great men and women who have recognized the progress that is needed..do not have fully fledged revolutionary opportunity but are using what exists to move society forward. in time humanity may look back at Zi and Putin, the Iranian leadership, as great men in the service of humanity, who did their parts in setting up the human future effectively
So accordingly the mkt goes down tomorrow or most of your comment was selective interpretation, or mkt makers are really clueless and the mkt goes up just to show who, who is the boss?
Correct me if i’m wrong.
capitalism can no longer make any positive use of human achievement in the interest of humanity. we can argue that capitalism never resulted in such positive use of human achievement.. but we are here currently with an advanced technology so we must have accomplished something during capitalism. but that day is done.
for capitalism to go on it must engage in an orgy of the comprehensive destruction of humanity, depopulation, miss-education of the people, engineering of humanity and the environment and its content. capitalism must literally cut to the world, the planet itself, into a shape fit for its domination in perpetuity. but that wont work, will result in a faster extinction of humanity short of global nuclear war
capitalism has begun such a horrific process and we are at the point of confrontation with this..the limit of capitalism. the end of its positive potential as it seeks to morph into Brave New World. it is likely take humanity down in global war at this point because the people cannot give in to the capitalist future for the human species. it is no future at all…Brave New World
the war on Iran must be stopped on the american side. for humanity to survive somehow the people of the west must stop this war. humanity cannot afford this war! there is too much at stake. the BRI must not be stopped..it is the most progressive social movement going right now.
this is a war to stop all human progress… to subsume humanity in a backward spiral in order to save the social domination of the western oligarchy. that is all it is to save..their power, elitist power. it is the most backward project imaginable the saving of western elitism… the most disgusting and unholy stream of consciousness that exists
Somehow it seems to me that the USA doesn’t have much money to go to war with Iran. the war still requires a lot of money and strong sponsors. There is no american money for the war. So even nuclear weapons are a bit pointless except as a means of genocide. I don’t believe the American elite wants it because it’s really crazy. Nevertheless Iran is part of the planet earth and its inhabitants are inhabitants of the planet Earth. just like the Americans are. I am concerned about the use of nuclear weapons that are not motivated by money and lost battles but by other motives such as Kashmir. For the first two cases, some crude logic could be drawn, it might even be manageable. But if India and Pakistan go to war for Cashmer, i’m sure they will use nuclear weapons. In the Middle East, all players are already profiled and it is possible to pursue some high risk policy and even wars because of some results. but as WWIII, which would capture most of the globe, had not already erupted, it could be said that everything is under some control. but India and Pakistan are totally unpredictable. Dangerously unpredictable. Who takes care of them?