by Ramin Mazaheri
Unfortunately, I’ve covered plenty of Roma camp demolitions since 2010, and they never actually stop, but a pro-Roma group sent me an email that attracted my attention.
Just outside of Paris a few dozen Roma families were terrified because at any unspecified moment cops were going to swoop in, bulldoze the camp, confiscate or destroy their meager possessions and render them homeless while providing no housing alternative.
This is totally normal in France.
What’s unusual was this: The camp had been allowed to stand for five whole years.
That’s an eternity in Roma time! Last year 60% of all Roma were forcibly evicted at least once. The key word there is, “forcibly”.
So this camp is basically the Rome (the eternal city) of Roma camps.
I covered the story for Press TV. I was one of about five journalists at a press conference they camp had arranged, and I was the only one with a cameraman. I can see why the French media don’t want footage of it – Roma camps are third-world societies amid the opulence of Paris. You literally open a door and walk into impoverished India.
How is it possible to have 3rd-world conditions in France?
Perhaps the best analogy in the Western hemisphere for Europe’s 10 million Roma (or Romani, or Gypsies) is the aboriginals or Native Americans. Like those groups, the Roma are viewed as an expendable nuisance who time has passed by.
Much like the aboriginals, the Roma are considered drunks, thieves, lazy, violent, stupid and unwelcome, except in isolated reservations on the worst possible land.
Again using Council of Europe figures, France has perhaps just 20,000 Roma in a nation of 66 million people. That’s a percentage of the overall population so low that it breaks my calculator. Put them all in one town and they wouldn’t even officially qualify as a “town” in France.
So the cost of helping them would be a drop in the bucket, but for France the Roma are the ultimate NIMBY – Not In My Back Yard.
But the great thing about the defeat of Marine Le Pen is that France’s minorities are going to be treated much better than they have been.
Hahaha, I’m funny!
When right-wing Nicolas Sarkozy was anti-Roma, he got plenty of international condemnation. But when “Socialist” Francois Hollande expelled even more Roma and destroyed even more of their homes, such condemnation was far more muted. This is very typical treatment in the West: the Left is let off for committing the same atrocities as the Right.
Now, the fake-leftists are sleeping soundly at night because we have Emmanuel Macron in office.
So if it was Le Pen and not Macron who was such a danger to minorities, then what was I doing there?
What was the camp like? We want details
Well, first they weren’t going to let us film. Some of them are illegal, some of them are bashful, etc.
So they made a decision in the typical Western fashion: The richest 1% got together and decided.
Oh wait, this is France: I mean, the highest-ranking bureaucrat followed the precedent of Hollande, and the promise of Macron, and ruled by decree.
Not at all: the entire camp, or at least those who were interested enough, gathered together and debated it for 10 minutes. My cameraman and I waited patiently, and hoped they believed what I promised: that we were there to do a 100% pro-Roma story.
Because what’s balance in such a case? “However…some people say the Roma are diseased, voodoo-practicing beggars who leech off society while getting drunk and dancing around a bonfire every night.”
Anyway, I work for Iranian TV in English – what’s the risk, I told them? The 4 or 5 other French journalists were mostly bogged down in the minutiae of local zoning ordinances. I was there to ask the simple question: “How can the world’s 5th-richest economy not accommodate just 20,000 Roma?”
So, they decided to let us in and – by Roma standards – it was pretty ok: A few dozen densely-packed caravans (trailers) wedged between two industrial factories, only one of which may have been working, no garbage everywhere, and no running water in the walking areas. When I left I was not covered in grime, and that may have been a first.
It was surprising how few small children there were. I guessed that this was because stability of five years in one place had created a basic level of prosperity, and by that I mean: the ability to purchase contraception. What conservatives may not realize is that when you have to choose between contraception and food for your household, you will necessarily choose food…but that does not mean you also choose to stop having sex, of course.
While I’ve been to Roma camps and perhaps seen some questionable activity – again, hunger is not just going to stop being a constant problem and the government is providing nothing despite levying taxes – a few dozen refrigerators lined up in rows indicated that this camp’s money-producing activity seemed to be stripping old refrigerators for parts. I certainly don’t know how you could steal a fridge….
Of course begging is another way to get money. But almost nobody is going to hire a 50-year old lady, even if she’s White, so that’s why those are the ones who get sent to beg. Once kids are old enough to not get hit by cars, but haven’t yet hit puberty, they keep Grandma company. I thought going to school is a really lousy life for a kid, but it’s better than theirs.
What was very surprising to see was how many flat-screen TVs and satellite dishes there were. This will shock some people, who feel that begging should be a 24/7 occupation which does not allow for repose. They also probably don’t know how cheap TVs have become. Of course, when the cops come in with the bulldozers they will crush these TVs, and I’m sure this will make such people happy.
All in all, the nearly 200 people living there had spruced it up real nice, and caravans instead of slapdash shacks are a sign that these were indeed “middle-class Roma”. There was even a sign for the main thoroughfare which read “Place Charles de Galle”, LOL.
This camp also benefitted from the barest foundation of governmental support: their caravans rested on actual concrete foundation, as they were squatting on an unused industrial area. Usually Roma are camping on dirt floors which, of course, makes things extremely dirty when the first rain falls, which is nearly every other morning in Paris.
Don’t get me wrong – people should definitely not have been living in that area for certain. The camp was on a long stretch of busy road where people routinely speed and where you definitely don’t want to have children playing. That’s why the camp’s gate is always closed, which makes them even more invisible to the average Frenchman. Problem? What problem?
The French government mainly hurts, it doesn’t give until it hurts
France’s Roma are consigned to such essentially hellish, noisy, dirty, dangerous places – literally on the highway shoulder, under the bridge, next to the dump – just like White Trash, and their Colored counterparts, everywhere. The difference is: the Roma get run off time after time and, if you think about it, that’s a really huge difference.
But not only had the local government tolerated this camp for 5 years, they even allowed Roma associations to help do insane, radical things like allow them to pipe in electricity and water. Thus the TVs and the hygiene. In perhaps the biggest expense to the local government, they even deigned to include their stop for garbage pickups, and that’s why garbage was not everywhere.
Perhaps only in a left-wing bastion like Bobigny – headed by Communists from 1944 to 2014 – was such social generosity available for the Roma. In Southeastern France, where the livin’ is easy but the governments are right-wing, oh la….
But since 2009 the livin’ ain’t easy anywhere in France, due to the planned failure that is neoliberal austerity…and Bobigny is no longer leftist. The new mayor of Bobigny is a conservative, and part of his election platform was clearing out the camp.
This is yet another example of how the betrayal of Hollande and the “Socialists” has turned the country to the right, and stuck it to us all 10 ways from Sunday and for countless Sundays to come.
And even though the Roma present practically no cost to the community – like, say, bailouts for foolish bankers – the government pretends like they are cutting unnecessary costs by scapegoating the Roma.
But ‘no cost’ is still too much when it comes to the Roma
The Roma face more discrimination than any other group in France. It doesn’t matter if they are citizens or not. They are banned from schools, state-run nurseries, denied hospital care and basically excluded from any and all government services. The proof of this simply everywhere.
I interviewed Annamaria Dumitru, and she explained how this refusal of even the barest of humane services creates the vicious cycle of Roma absolute poverty:
“I had to stop my job training (as a beautician) because I had to watch my little daughter, who was not allowed in schools. This is even though my family and I have all our papers.”
Voila. What else needs to be said? This is totally illegal, but totally common.
Let me make it clear: The biggest obstacle to Roma integration is that there is no national pro-Roma policy: One racist judge or anti-Roma bureaucrat can undo years of individual and collective efforts. From Ms. Dumitru to her entire community which has spent five years building and improving their home, the good works of some French people is repeatedly and easily swept away by the discrimination of other French people.
I was invited inside the home by a man in his 40s, where his wife was making his lunch: 5 or 6 fried eggs. No meat, no potatoes, not even bread.
He showed me official documents which illustrated how he had been fighting for a decision, any decision, on his citizenship application – after all, there are time limits which must be enforced. For him – because he is Roma – they are not.
One national court ruled in his favor, and they said that for each day the county fails to make a decision they will be fined 100 euros. But, I would place the odds of this fine ever being collected at slim and none. The county continues to ignore the court, and the man remains in limbo as much as any refugee.
Are Roma parents are somehow ‘different’ from other parents?
A final case from this community: I spoke with a middle-aged man and father of three. Thanks to five years of stability, his 17-year old boy had just completed high school and was hopeful to get a job.
But he was worried about his 12-year old son – what job prospects could he have if they are forced to leave and he’s not allowed in the new school? And what of his 7-year old son, who wasn’t allowed in the primary school? Like any father of any ethnicity, he wants the best for his children.
This story disproves the most reactionary, idiotic and even inhuman stereotype about the Roma: that they choose to “live differently”. C’mon…you show me a mom, who has lugged around her baby for 9 months, who doesn’t want to see her child be healthy, educated and successful? Maybe the occasional single man wants to live the nomadic troubadour life, but how many fathers do? Gimme a break….
Very worried, he asked me what I thought the camp’s chances were of being allowed to stay.
I did what I had to – I lied my butt off. I told him “50/50”.
What was I supposed to say, the truth? “C’mon man, you’ve had a good run! All the other Roma have probably been herded out like cattle 10 different times since 2012! Count your blessings! Besides, I’m sure your type just can’t resist the sound of that open road calling?”
Nonsense.
Trying to change the subject, I asked him how often he was stopped by cops for ID checks. Racial profiling, long in use, was declared legal in January. He said it wasn’t so bad anymore – only once every couple months. This is a man with a full head of white hair, perfectly coiffed, and wearing a suit.
He then took out of his suit pocket tax forms. He wanted me to see that he had paid hundreds and hundreds of euros in local taxes. Why shouldn’t he be able to stay – he’s paying taxes, but what is he buying?
That was when I noticed that he had indeed been hiding something up his sleeve: he was apparently missing his left hand. You would think that a man who has lived in France for 18 years would have a prosthetic, but…that is really dreamland for a Roma.
It’s a question of socialization, i.e. France’s lack of Socialism
I would think that the Roma imagined they left such mistreatment behind in their ancestral India, where many treat cows better than they treat people? So what’s France’s excuse?
Obviously, it’s a lack of modern Socialist ideals.
All Socialist countries are built on racial and ethnic tolerance. The USSR and Cuba relentlessly promoted minorities to high places of power. Hugo Chavez finally got Afro-Caribbean history in their text books. Iran has Constitutionally-mandated Parliamentary seats for minority religions and groups.
France has…well, they have a “don’t’ ask, don’t tell” policy when it comes to ethnicity or religion…and it is a total failure.
And when it comes to the Roma, it has created a reactionary view which is disgusting and near-total: A poll in 2013 found that a stunning 93% of French blamed the Roma for being unable to integrate, as if it was their choice.
Any Socialist knows France is blaming the victim, because it is all a question of socialization – racism is learned; fighting racism requires laws. Socialism says, “Are you talking racist junk about the Roma and not allowing their children in school? Well, then you are a reactionary bastard – take what money you can carry with you and get out, or we will put you in jail.”
And in Socialist success stories, such reactionaries did leave. And the newly Socialist countries were better for it – how could they not be? And in many cases these rich, racist, huddled masses caused major damage in their new countries – how could they not? Think of the negative effect the anti-revolution Cubans and Iranians have had on US policy? What about the drug-addicted Ayn Rands, the socialist-hating, austerity-producing Austrian economists, the powerful bureaucrat Brzezinskis, etc.
As is the problem between France and their Muslim community, the main issue is the majority’s failure to believe that the minority has even one thing to teach. France does not only does not tolerate multiculturalism – multiple cultures – they adhere to the assimilationist insistence that only one culture should dominate: White French Nationalism.
These Roma will be out on the street…but not for long, I think. Their “tribe mentality” means they have social links, so I hope that they can get just a bit of help from their Roma friends. This community-centeredness is something which individualist France would greatly benefit from learning in order to reduce their massive amount of alienation, cynicism and overall nervous tension, evidenced by their sky-high levels of addiction to anti-depressants, sleeping pills and other psychotropic drugs.
Another thing the Roma can teach them is how to play music which actually has a beat and isn’t depressing. The only French musician anyone in the US has ever heard of is a Roma: the guitarist Django Reinhardt. Serge Gainsbourg’s success is baffling to all non-French musicians, Edith Piaf’s vibrato is tighter than piano wire, Johnny Halliday probably wouldn’t have cut it in the US and I can’t name a 4th French musician who you have heard of.
I can solve the Roma problem right now
Just leave the Roma alone for one generation, which I have always defined as 33 years.
That’s it.
What will happen is they will have the stability to build roots, savings, ties to the community, etc. Give them the chance to build real lives and they will run with it and not look back. My source for this: the damned Roma themselves!
If you’ve read this far you should agree that the following statement is not an exaggeration: France is an apartheid state when it comes to the Roma.
Voila.
For the anti-Roma resisters, i.e. “the French”…I want to ask you this question: Are you ok with your daughter marrying a Roma? If you allow them into your schools and workplaces, this is bound to happen.
I think the French aren’t ok with that, which is why they are segregated from normal society. This is disgusting, not modern and as far-right as you can get.
If you are ok with your daughter marrying a Roma – even in some far-off time like 20 years from now – that then you should realize that the best way to help your future son-in-law is to stop keeping your boot on his neck. Let ‘em live, and they’ll make good family members and citizens.
The Bobigny camp may already be gone by the time you’re reading this. The French state thinks that rendering them homeless wasn’t enough – they had to terrorize them by not giving them a date and time when the whip would come down.
And it will be a terror operation because even though just a whip, a hard look and a few hundred cops would do, France will send in the riot police, with more armor than an American football player, armed to the teeth, wreaking destruction on a small, helpless village like modern-day Mongols.
Say goodbye to “the Rome of the Roma”. I hope they start again near where I live.
Ramin Mazaheri is the chief correspondent in Paris for Press TV and has lived in France since 2009. He has been a daily newspaper reporter in the US, and has reported from Iran, Cuba, Egypt, Tunisia, South Korea and elsewhere. His work has appeared in various journals, magazines and websites, as well as on radio and television.
Why look here specifically to foreign immigrant Roma from Romania, which you did? There are indigenous French gypsies, just as there are indigenous Spanish gypsies.
The pop superstars The Gypsy Kings are from Montpellier and Arles.
The subject of the gypsies in Europe and their relations with the Latin peoples is a long and complicated one, not some recent immigration story. It’s not black and white, but very grey.
You can make a case that the Gypsy Kings were just as Spanish, as their parents were run out during Franco.
A nod to James Brown, from whom I cribbed: “I’m paying taxes, but what am I buying?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYxKHo6oek8
The answer, then as now: “A whole lotta government muscle, and everybody crying’!”
This 10-minute jam is JB’s most virulent condemnation of American Apartheid, and it’s very apt to use with a report about the Roma.
JB grew up with “separate but (un)equal” Jim Crow policies, but the Roma don’t get unequal facilities – they get no facilities at all.
There’s nothing “very grey” about that!
It’s worth listening until the 7:45 mark when JB starts playing the role of a White man telling a Black to “get off the sidewalk, you ain’t White”! He pleads “don’t hit me, boss”, and then pretends to be conspiring with his Black friends to “get his knife and cut him”.
JB then starts singing the Sinatra song “Just Molly and me, and baby makes three”, but is cut off with: “Didn’t you know Molly was a white woman, boy?!” JB switches to “Just Molly and y’all…I ended it all”. LOL
For awhile, I worked with a group of volunteer, independent journalists. What would happen is this. Your group would be contacted by a group that is putting on an event. The most memorable for me was when I went over to Alabama to cover the anniversary of Dr. King’s march into Montgomery from Selma, which was combined with press conferences about the state of Montgomery’s public bus system.
So, you go to this event. You listen to their press conferences, you talk to people, you walk around taking photographs or filming video. Then, at the end of the day or the beginning of the next day, you sit down to right about it.
Thus, I well understand why Mr. Mazaheri focused on this group of Roma and the plight of this camp. Its where he was, its who he was talking to and listening to describe their problems. So, with me, that would be what was in my heart, so that’s what I then try to write about. Of course, there are other Roma around, and of course this problem has a long history. But there’s something good about going to a place, meeting some people, and letting them touch your heart and thus you write about this specific instance and what’s happening in this specific place to these specific people. Its good to be specific at least some of the time.
The propaganda machines often try to obscure things by moving away from the specific. They talk about broad causes, and thus try to make it ok to hurt people in the name of these broad strokes. Which is why its often good to get specific, and talk about specific people in a specific camp and the harms that are coming to them.
You got it brother (or sister)!
My heart goes out to these folks. But let me insert a bit of nuance here.
My personal experience with the Roma in Europe has been so far:
– being swarmed by children looking to pick my pockets
– being asked by women for food and clothes, which I gave, and then found strewn out in the staircase of the building
– seeing begging women sitting in the metro with drugged toddlers in their laps
– watching a group of gypsies arriving in a camping ground, as drunken fist-fights erupt and a woman blow her nose in her petticoat (no, I’m not making this up — and yes, the dress over it was very pretty …)
This is the only personal experience most people will have with the Roma / gypsies. On the other hand, mention needs to be made of the ancestral hatred and contempt of the gypsies for the ‘gadje’ (sedentary persons). So no wonder stereotypes endure. I guess it is the immemorial struggle between Abel the (sedentary) Farmer and Cain the (roaming) Herder. For a gripping analysis of this struggle, see the Leavers and the Takers in Daniel Quinn’s book, “Ishmael”.
I find it heart-breaking that their nomadic lifestyle has been made impossible. There is a romantic yearning in all of us to be free-roaming through the world. However, being sedentary seems to be our lot. Everything should be made to help those who are trying to adapt to our lifestyle. They are very motivated, hence they are the energy behind the great new things to come about in our world.
I find it despicable that the “camps” are just destroyed without any thought to re-housing the people. It seems that it is a prerogative of the super-powerful to do that, be it the gypsies camps, the homeless camps, or the destruction of Palestinian homes.
Abel was the herdsman
If they were re-housed the housing would be a trashed out, garbage dump in a fortnight. Gypsies don’t give a rip about the people whose property they trash. Hooray for Django but it’s the group behavior that counts.
Thank you for this article, Ramin Mazaheri.
What struck me most, is that when Roma people want another future for their kids, and wants them to be a part of society, even when they have all the necessary paperwork, are hindred in that. Whatever causes that (prejudice, a few damned rules, whatever), my guess is that then a society failes. Many boat immigrants without any papers are taken care of.
I may want to invite you to have a look at something that many people don’t know. For years people have talked about the camp called ‘the Jungle’ in Calais (I have a colleague who is from Calais, I have heard horror stories of being robbed at home), but do we realize that there exist hundreds of comparable camps in the USA? They are no immigrants, but Americans who have lost their jobs and houses. Take a look for yourself: https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1920&bih=992&q=tent+cities+in+america&oq=tent+cities+in+america&gs_l=img.1.0.0l2j0i24k1l2.1921.11409.0.13636.23.23.0.0.0.0.574.3328.0j9j2j1j0j2.14.0….0…1.1.64.img..9.14.3324.0..0i30k1.zJxhDCJzUl4
I’m afraid we will see this more and more. Therefore thank you for highlighting this subject.
In Ireland/Scotland/England the are called travelers and have been around for centuries.
I agree that the Roma “problem” could be solved if they were simply left alone. But that is not what governments — busybodies trying to be an institution– typically do, leave things alone. When I think of governments (liberal democracies) I think of the coyote trickster archetype: Look at frog over there, what’s his problem? Why isn’t he part of the program? Does he think he’s better than us? Maybe he’s a spy? Or a terrorist?…
I like to add a few more words here, dear Ramin Mazaheri.
In your text it seems that nothing happened in French music since the presence of Edith Piaf, Serge Gainsbourg and/or Johnny Halliday, who are dead or close to that.
I beg to differ. Although I don’t live in France, I’m of the opinion that interesting music is made there.
Have you ever heard of the mysterious and very succesfull band of Daft Punk? Have fun with chasing them on youTube.
Secondly, a personally very favouite of mine is the French/Spanish band of Manu Chao. My children love this music. People that really know me (and those are few) know that when I’m in a rebellious mood I always choose this music. Here is a famous concert of them in Bayonne, France: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UlDzZ5DtLc&t=7200s Please notice that a lot of the audiance are dressed in white with a red head scarf.
There is a specific song of them, really when I hear this from my car radio I immediately start to smile: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ7oROlf5ys
Finally, are people aware of the brilliant multi instrumentalist Yann Tiersen? He has written and played the most awesome music. Here is some film music of him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wCLK9iOPDw&t=1080s
I’m fully aware that music is something very personal. Therefore, e.g. everyone’s garden looks different and that’s ok for me. But to say that nothing interesting happened in French music, I don’t agree.
That doesn’t hinder me from stating that again you have written a very interesting article again, Ramin Mazaheri. Thank you for that.
Hi Rob,
Knocking French music is an easy joke, but there’s actually lots I do like. I’m a big fan of the radio station Nostalgie, which plays France’s golden oldies.
Manu Chao is great and Daft Punk does some real good stuff. I’ll check out Yann Tiersen for sure, many thanks!
A very nice read, reminded me of the time I read the Castafiore Emerald as a boy, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Castafiore_Emerald
And I loved the way haddock offered his land for them to squat on.
It would be so wonderful if the tourist aspect of the gypsies could be harnessed by the local govt. Just have designated plots in the town’s they frequent, like trailer parks. Offer tourist the chance to live the gypsy life for trips between cities, offer courses in the crafts and music that must be unique to these people, and the clothing they could sell. So many people must be wanting to feel good by genuinely helping these people and getting some spiritual fulfillment from them. I know, all romanticized. But possible to some degree. If only there was some vision.
Thank you
Yes very tragic what is happening to the Roma. This does not just happen France:
Are you aware, Ramin, of what happened to the Roma in “liberated” Kosovo? Wasn’t Iran providing weapons to the jihadis in the Balkans and the Kosovo Liberation Army? Do you know what they did to them?
In terms of the fake-lefties being “let off”, we’ve seen the same in America. The mainstream press ignored the fact that Obama was setting all-time records for deportations during his reign. He deported far more than his Republican predecessors. But now, look at the uproar in the media and the Democrats for Trump deporting people. Its quite noticeable after the silence about Obama. You used to see the same sort of press conferences in America under Obama. Groups trying to get attention to how many people Obama was deporting, and no mainstream media and few cameras present.
So, this is a bit off-topic, but I’m curious what this author thinks of the chances that the terror attacks in London will stop as soon as the threat of a more left-leaning government is avoided? I ask since this author lives in France, where the attacks in Paris seem to have magically stopped after the threat of a more left-leaning government was avoided.
I suppose that we in America are lucky in that Hillary and the corporate Democrats always had the Bernie movement under control in the controlled America two-party non-democracy.
I think the only way terror attacks stop in the West is if Western imperialism, especially in Muslim-countries, finally ends. Western imperialism is the reason cited by nearly every French terrorist since 2012.
The reason I write “especially” Muslim countries is because no other region of the world has a political “leadership” so completely dominated by the West.
There’s something strange to human nature that I’m not able to comprehend. Take a history book off the nearest shelf and have a look into it. What does history teach us? Probably history doesn’t teach us anything, because otherwise people would remember that the Holocaust hadn’t been limited to exterminating people of Jewish faith. Sinti and Roma also had been the victims of those perverted ideas of eliminating undesired people. I can’t remember any instance of some Western politician pledging a “Never again” with regard to Sinti and Roma. To say it in the words of George Orwell with regard to the victims of the Holocaust: some animals are more equal than others.
The Bedouin in Arab nations and Israel are also nomadic and have the same difficulties. To some extent, native Americans on the US/Canada border have had the same problems.
An American version is called The Rainbow Tribe. They tend to stay on Beauro of Land Management chunks for their up to 21 day allotments. Members talk about Regional and National meetings, tribe elders and The Black Sheep gathering in socal over Christmas. Apparently some annuals can attract 100 000 +.
Bring things you need, bring things to trade, but don’t bring your US notes. Or anything from the government really.
Loved the article. Had never heard of the Roma.
I assume that if Jesus were alive today, you’d prolly find him at a Roma camp.
The standard form of racism.
Whoever is different and unwanted, they are always called thieves, liars, drugusers, drunkards, and a danger to the daughters of the community. The name of the group can be left as fill in the blank, but what follows is always the same.
The sad part about nearing 60 years of life on this world is that for awhile we seemed like we were about to move beyond this. If you came of age in the 60’s or 70’s, there was this positive feeling that the world was changing. This feeling that just maybe people were learning to move beyond their primitive hatreds and fears. But, now we seemed to have snapped back with a vengence, and its as bad or worse as its ever been.
Of course, the driving force of this is that the bankers and the 1% have been taking more and more of the wealth for themselves and leaving less and less for everyone else. So, everyone else is having to scramble even harder just to survive. And when you are fighting that hard just to survive, its easy to hate anyone else who you are forced to compete against. And then of course that hatred is likely to follow the familiar old forms.
Ramin, you claim that the solution to Roma poverty is socialism. How do you explain that after all those years of socialism/ communism in Eastern Europe did the Roma still not achieve emancipation?
Someone please explain to me why is Roma music referred to as “jazz” in the west? Django Reinhardt toured with Duke Ellington so I get that part. But what about Goran Bregovic who commercialised the local gypsy tunes. He’s based in Belgrade and his music certainly doesn’t sound like it came out of New Orleans. Look up Bregovic’s song “Death” on youtube. Under the genre it will say Jazz..
Hi Serbian Girl, many thanks for all your comments.
I don’t think that because Eastern/Central European socialism didn’t bring total prosperity to the Roma there, that somehow socialism is at fault. That seems like faulty logic. Certainly, I say: Let’s try it again and maybe it will work this time!
Pretty much any music based around improvisation is called jazz in the US, and the Roma do a lot of that (thankfully). Guys like Django wrote a lot of songs that didn’t use traditional musical structures – like, say, the 1-4-5 structure in blues – so that’s a secondary reason.
American jazz music is as diverse as Roma music is. New Orleans jazz is as different from the jazz fusion of The Mahavishnu Orchestra as flamenco-based Gypsy Kings is from Balkan Roma music (at least that’s what I assume. When I was in the Balkans I heard a ton of Greek, Turkish and Russian influences in their music, so I assume the Roma incorporated some of that).
This is a very strange article. Starting with the language: some beliefs are “reactionary” and 93% of the French are apparently so – and it is the author that possesses the enlightened and progressive truth: it’s all a lack of socialism, new man, singing tomorrows, etc.
I don’t know about France. But I know a little about my country, Portugal. I dare ask: does the author have or has had any “Roma” neighbours for a while, say, one year?
I have and, furthermore, I’ve had them as colleagues in school too. And I have to say that they fit the stereotype. In a gist, they act as if they don’t give a toss about anyone else.
They rented a house with three flats next to my house. After a few months, proceeded to strip the place out of every bit of wood, including the floor, because “it had bug”. On top of that, they claimed it was actually a service they’d provided to the landlord and decided to deduct the estimated amount in their rent payments.
They decided to make big parties lasting for days, day and night, with loud music and so on, with full disregard for their neighbours. Although in this, they are no longer that different from society – one point for “integration”, I guess…
Come summer time, they decided to install a little air pool for the children – by the way, they had about five or six of them, oldest seemed to have 12 or so; so they put a hose from the tap straight to the pool and left it running for weeks in a row. Weeks. Which created a little stream going downhill and eventually coming into our property.
This is mains water – the kind you have a supply contract , a meter, and you pay for what you consume. Now – were they paying for the water? If so, then this is waste like I’ve never seen and not even the most stupid entitled city boy would go so far in such a thing. The only reasonable conclusion is that they were not paying for it.
One day, at 7AM police came. Two vans, two teams of fully armored and armed police – like SWAT. They entered the premises looking for someone of a specific family – there were three families living in the building. The ones they were looking for weren’t there. But the other families immediately released their children into the midst of the police operation whilst their parents stayed inside. Obviously not the safest environment for releasing children. I wonder what the objective was… At 7PM after police left, the missing family returned.
As far as school goes – I’m sorry but I just don’t believe that “Roma” children are denied school in France. I don’t believe it and I challenge the author to prove it.
They certainly aren’t in Portugal. And whereas they sometimes come up with a token “cigano” on TV who became a doctor, they always fail to show how he grew up or his backstory. I bet it’s not the typical one.
Because the typical situation is that ciganos are terribly undisciplined, they disturb classes, they bully other students and aggress them. And when one gets disciplined by a teacher with suspension, the whole family, clan, or whatever – dozens of people – come down to school to ask for justification in what is clearly an attempt to intimidation. The same happens in hospitals, police stations or public services. Ask whomever you want. It’s a common sight.
It’s well know, and a common complain from schools and teachers, that cigano girls stay in school maximum until they’re 16, because by then they have to get married. School is compulsory until 18 in Portugal. Besides breaking the law, which would prompt social services to investigate any normal family, they are denying education to their children.
The opinion that ciganos don’t integrate is not “reactionary”, unless “reactionary” is what the Central Committee decides…
For me it is a simple matter: everyone is equal before the law and regulations. So everyone has to be equally accountable to the law and regulations.
Ciganos aren’t equally accountable before the law. They get away with things most people don’t. That is fact. It may be that they suffer aggravations that other people don’t. But you can’t have a cake and eat it too: you either keep the cake or you eat it.
You either respect the law and be protected by it; or you don’t respect the law but then don’t complain when the law doesn’t protect you.
Very interesting, Portuguese guy.
RE schools, in Serbia, they are certainly not denied school. In fact now there is Soros/Open society/ sponsored legislation that will come into effect which basically prevents any failing of any Roma children because this would be “discrimination”. Even if the Roma child fails the aptitude tests they are still to be allowed access to the class that corresponds to their age.
https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/roma-children-serbia-20101019.pdf
As a swede, whose country has been invaded by romas in recent years since EU let Bulgaria and Romania in, I can only second “a portugeese guy” in his opinion about them. Under the cover of begging outside every shop in the whole country (where they put their old women/disabled) they are wreaking havoc all over our beautiful country with their camps that they never clean up, stealing everything that is not bolted and behaving terrible. Our idiot government let these maffia-clans operate freely under our state-religion multiculturalism. They are even getting free healthcare here and other benefits. So I´m very surprised over this article and its completely biased weeping over romas in France.
A delicious moment was when the couple who had been interviewed on TV as spokespeople speaking out against stereotypes against Gypzies, turned out to be running a major ‘fence’ operation. Their property was full of stolen goods….
Other interactions I have of gypzies involve begging, with 2 year old child in the lap, sipping a coke, for days on end…. or walking around with clip boards for fake support campaigns they later want money for, prostitution of course,
There are other groups much more worthy of support.
I assume you have garbage collection. They don’t. In the not so distant past, garbage and “night soil” was dumped out of windows into the street…
If you see it as a problem, what are you and your friends willing to do about it?
May I suggest watching, “Why is India so filthy?” | The Ugly Indian | TEDxBangalore
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf1VA5jqmRo
Is it not in your best interest that even strangers should have access to health care for your own safety and well being? Am I missing someting?
Geneva Observer, well said.
It’s amazing that I can write how the Roma are denied water and trash pickup and…yet some people will not understand why they have dirty conditions. As if they did not produce the same amount of waste.
I’d like to see how they would somehow live spotlessly under the same conditions.
You choose to ignore history, the enslavement of Roma for some 500 years. They were released in 1856, the same time as the US war of secession. The Romanian slaves when released had nothing but the shirt on their back, were dependent on their former slave owners. Many left anyway. With no education, discriminatory practices (in 1510 in Switzerland they were sentenced to death – Hitler was a little later) there was not much left for them to survive other than organized crime, prostitution, music and dance.
If you look closely at most of the circuses, they were first ambulatory (walked from town to town). They built up their capital to buy horses, wagons, tents and today are highly professional. Do you think any banker lent them even a penny? If you have ever had the opportunity to go to circus school, you will learn what hard work these people do, the training they put themselves through, so they can put on a show, for you the spectator. The money you spend leaves little left over for a luxurious lifestyle. The majority in Europe are Roma.
In 1981, while in Romania, a Roma family was given an apartment to live in. They washed in the toilet, ripped up the flooring to make a fire to keep warm. No one had even thought to show them how to turn on the heating. They had never had running water.
Are you honestly surprised by the results? The wounds and bitterness of centuries of deprivation gives the current situation.
Well, I don’t see why your 1 anecdote should carry more weight than the 3 anecdotes I reported.
Should I tell you about the White guy who borrowed my lawnmower but never returned it? Or the French guy who stole my girl’s handbag? Should I use these stories to stigmatize those entire communities?
All such stories of criminal behavior can happen anywhere, and they will if you have enough poverty. The stories I related, however, are about systemic societal and governmental racism on a very basic level.
Do a Google search and you will a ton of mainstream media stories about the Roma being denied schooling in France. So, just add my report to that very long list. Maybe you won’t “believe” all of us, but what can be done about that….
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10997911/France-excludes-Roma-children-from-schools.html
I would say it’s simple cause and effect: Deny groups access to basic services and don’t be surprised if they reject your laws. It’s not for Ciganos to be accountable before the law BEFORE they get treated like normal humans – it’s the other way around.
So yes, the “Central Committee” does denounce as reactionary the idea that the Roma should be systematically mistreated. Otherwise…that’s a pretty lousy Central Committee.
Concerning Gypsies in France. Have a look at the very first pages of ”Les Bijoux de la Castafiore” from “Tintin et Milou”. This is from 1960.
Sorry to refer to Bande dessinée.
It shouldn’t carry more or less weight. It is my perspective from my experience. But you can verify it by talking to other people.
I wasn’t even talking about criminal behaviour – although that also happens. I’m talking about what can be termed anti-social behaviour.
First, the being denied school – you phrased it in way that suggests they are systematically denied school only because they are Roma. That’s not what the article says. Even if the claims of the article are true – which I have no problem believing – it is very clearly related to what I said about intimidation.
They’re trying to avoid having a clan of dozens of Roma come to school to “protest”. Surely you’ve never seen such a thing. Give it a try. You’ll find that their understanding of the concept of “civil rights” is very peculiar. Anyway, it is a localised incident and its very irregular. They have to come up with petty pretextes because they can’t legally refuse them schooling. So, they are not refused schooling in France because that is illegal.
About poverty, yeah. You are conflating poverty with lack of education or formation. Many, not all, but many, will live in apparently squalid conditions and drive top of the range cars. They are not poor, they live like that because their parents lived like that. You’ll find many non-roma families who have a lot less and live in proper, clean, even if modest households. It’s a matter of culture, not class.
About the more general point of denied services. They are not denied anything. This I can attest and I can invite you to Portugal so you see for yourself. They reject the law because of their culture and way of life. That’s it.
I think they should have to go to school like everyone else. Including the girls. Like everyone else, again. But they don’t want that because that means the inevitable dissolution of their way of living.
Everyone should be accountable before the law. “Treated like normal human beings” is a meaningless statement. What is normal? What is being treated like normal? Marrying girls aged 16 or less is normal? Or you deny that this commonly happens, perhaps?
Also, I forgot to point that you haven’t answered my question: have you ever had Roma as neighbours for a period of time? As in, neighbours to the place you normally live?
I should point out a couple of things, to clarify:
First, ciganos in Portugal are nothing new. They’ve been there for a long time, like in Spain, and are not related with this recent immigration phenomena. So it’s not like people don’t know them or don’t like them because they are immigrants.
As far as I know or heard, they are, like in Spain, independent of the apparently more organized international networks that operate in Italy, Romania and other countries begging, stealing, etc.
They have these practices in Portugal, but it’s normally petty things. They have a reputation of being dishonest but that is probably because their main “legal” activity is trading in fairs and local markets, so in the context of business. They exceptions I’m aware of are when they go for revenge and kill someone or they fight other “minorities”. Years ago there was a big shooting spree between ciganos and african immigrants in a Lisbon suburb. Apparently they hate each other. I’m sure each will have their reasons.
Now, I also have to say that there are a lot of people that have good relationships with ciganos, and vouch for them. BUT, they don’t deny all these things because everyone testifies them on a daily basis. But what they say is that there better and worse ciganos – which makes sense – but that most of them, once they feel they owe you something or they are thankful for some reason, they are as loyal friends as you can find. So there is honor amongst these people.
Which brings me again to my conclusion: the main issue is that they can get away with things other people can’t – because of fear of intimidation or retaliation by them, or because you’ll be called racist if you complain, etc. But this hurts them more than anyone else, I would say. It doesn’t let them adapt to the society. And is perceived as unfair by everyone else which only deepens the resentment against them.
They share a sociological aspect with African societies and Middle-Eastern societies it seems to me. They function very well in and on a clanic or familiar structure. But things are a lot more complicated when you go up to a larger community or organisation. I don’t know the answer to this, but I don’t think class dialectics like the author seems to want to apply are it either.
Here is the video of the shooting I talked about a few years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqWTTitg5RM
It must be said that this is not seen every day, far from it. In terms of violence I’m sure there are other groups much worse.
You stand with the opprimed minorities in France. Kudos for that!
Cannot wait to see the day when a Roma becomes french president for the first time.
Dear Ramin, do you actually believe what you write or you’re just expecting reactions?
You really have no idea what living nearby a Roma camp is and I hope your wish comes true someday.
From my experience, just two houses away from mine, it was very different from that Kusturica movie you’ve apparently been interviewing in. It was TVs dismantled instead of fridges. And handbags. It’s crazy how many people throw handbags these days. It was daily fightings inside and outside. Bottles thrown in the house. Banging and breaking for months and i eventually found out that they were not renovating. Shit, yes shit on the street, every day, for nearly one year. On the pavement, on the street, between cars, even on a car once. The owner must have complained the day before.
And prostitution too.
You compare Aboriginals and Roma situations. Did you know that milions of Aboriginals were killed by colonisation. They were forced to abandon their culture, deported to bad lands. Colored children (probably conceived by concenting adults) were taken from their mothers to be sent to good Anglican families… The list goes on. Do you really think the Roma go through that in France? ‘Apartheid’ France I mean.
Also, don’t forget that Roma are all imigrants. Aboriginals are the indigenous people. They’ve just been kicked out.
Of course, I am not saying that Romas live a happy life. They just live differently.
You are probably aware that the money they may earn or get is going directly to the local “boss” and probably straight for those beautiful housing projects in Buzescu, Rumania.
Not saying that my culture is essentialy better that their. This is a question of values. I wouldn’t live like them and these guys would surely kill themselves if asked to wash the dishes. I am an expert at washing dishes.
And what’s wrong with being reluctant to marry your daughter to a Roma? Do you think they would happily welcome you into their families?
By the way, not sure that Django Reinhart would have liked to be associated to the freshly arrived Roma. Come on do you know what sort of speedy atrocious techno music they listen to? FYI, these Gypsies from northern France like Django have been here for centuries, hence the german sounding surnames they have.
Yes France does not recognise multiculuralism. Citizens are not considered through their ethnicity, religion or whatever. The idea is that citizens are equal. So what?