Pressemitteilung:
Joint Declaration by the Foreign Ministers of Ukraine, Russia, France and Germany 02.07.2014
The Foreign Ministers of Germany, France, Russia and Ukraine strongly reconfirm their commitment to sustainable peace and stability in Ukraine. In this context they stress the necessity of a sustainable ceasefire, to be agreed upon swiftly and to be observed by all concerned, thus putting an end to violence in Eastern Ukraine.
Ministers urge that the Contact Group should resume no later than July 5th with the goal of reaching an unconditional and mutually agreed sustainable cease-fire. This cease-fire should be monitored by the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission in Ukraine in conformity with its mandate. In that respect, Ministers agree to take all necessary measures and use their influence on the concerned parties with a view to achieving this goal. Ministers stress the importance of a swift release of all hostages.
Ministers welcome Russia’s readiness to grant Ukrainian border guards access to Russian territory in order to participate in the control of border crossings at the checkpoints Gukovo and Donetsk while the mutually agreed cease-fire is in place. This shall be done in close collaboration between Russian and Ukrainian border authorities and pending the return of the Ukrainian checkpoints Izvarino and Krasnopartizansk to Ukrainian government control.
Ministers invite the OSCE to take all necessary steps to deploy OSCE-observers in response to the Russian invitation at the Russian checkpoints Gukovo and Donetsk while the mutually agreed cease-fire is in place. All sides must contribute to a secure environment.
Ministers stress that this would contribute to an effective control of the Russian-Ukrainian border and called for regular and expeditious exchange of relevant information between Russia, Ukraine and the OSCE.
Ministers emphasize the need to ensure safety and security of journalists working in the area of violence.
——-
Commentary: potentially, this could be huge. Of course, considering that the Ukie side has, so far, violated every single agreement it signed, this could also be just one more irrelevant document. But, if the junta came to the realization that its offensive against Novorussia is going absolutely nowhere from a military point of view and that its only result is to worsen the junta’s image in the general public opinion (it was, after all, the junta which resumed hostilities), then this might indicate that Kiev is slowly coming to realize that its plan to either defeat the resistance or draw Russia in is failing. But even if the junta will immediately renege on this agreement, it sets a crucial precedent: Kiev has now officially accepted that a ceasefire will not be contingent upon the disarmament of the Novorussian forces. Of course, such a disarmament was never possible anyway, but what is important is that the junta is coming to the realization that it will have to accept this fact.
Again, it is way way waaaaay to early to rejoice, this all is far from over, but, combined with the obvious lack of any military progress of the junta’s death squads in Novorussia, this is yet another solid reason to hope. As Juan always says, this will get worse before it gets better, but there are increasing signs that the junta is coming to the realization that the US imposed strategy has very little, if any, chance to work. Good.
The Saker
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/02/the-risk-of-a-ukraine-bloodbath/
Ray M.
I’ll keep my fingers crossed but Amerikas neo cons are still in control.
What a fucking idiot this chocolate prince is. Has he not noticed that the US abandons any supposed ally the second they start to lose? Where was the US when Putin shut down Georgia’s attempt to meddle in Russian affairs? Oh right. He hasn’t learned from history, and he’ll be lucky if he doesn’t end up hanged by the neck before this is over.
Apocalyptic messages from Strelkov: Ammo almost gone, Slavyansk will belong to the Ukies by the 12th….
Also, Uki tanks are in the streets of Slavyansk, evidently.
I hope and pray this ceasefire agreement is real. And noticeable in their absence: USA. Finally.
Also: There is listed here :
________________________
The official account to collect funds for slovyansk militia under the command of i. Strelkova:
Map Of Sberbank
4276 3800 9734 2310
Link: icorpus.ru
____________
Does anyone know anything about this?
typo:
It’s is a contraction of it is. (Example: It is known ….)
Its is a possessive pronoun. It belongs to the same class as yours, his, her and mine. (Example: Its colour is red, etc.)
Ok but if the borders will remain to Ukrainian…how the rebels will do to receive heps and weapons…?(in case of new fights)
And this ceasefire is Putin strategy in action.
The terms of surrender of Kiev are being put in place. The German industrialists want this to end before the next quarter. Everything has economic factors attached. France stood up on the Mistrals and got hit by the Hegemon on its banking. The Germany’s will suffer next. DeutcheBank is a cesspool the US can exploit at will.
The EU is without a future. Taking on Kiev’s corrupt and bankrupt economy had a short shelf life. Putin screwed that big time.
Putin can win this war on the ground, or by other means. Donbass is his. But that is not the goal. He wants the South all the way to the west border. Odessa is not going to be abandoned. Everything in its time.
But there is another way he gets Novorossiya. Kiev leadership changes and changes until a compliant leadership can be dealt with and a very loose federation is established. How does this happen?
Putin is the debt holder and gas supplier. The EU is not going to pay the debt and the annual bill for gas. They also are not going to rebuild the East they are paying to destroy. So, Putin gets the East, Kiev is a token government answering to the next paymaster and gas master in Moscow.
The US is not going to be able to hold Iraq for the next two years until Obama leaves and sustain a corrupt Kiev.
The US and EU have already lost. Putin is winning his way.
The US will try in other neighboring places. The Caucasus region gives them many other opportunities at lower cost to bog down Moscow.
And they have Japan rearming. Japan could challenge Russia over the disputes they have.
The Hegemon is not dead yet. But Kiev is life-support and Putin has his hand on the switch.
I think the lack of Polish or American participation is highly significant.
It may signal that Germany and France really want to achieve a ceasefire in partnership with Russia and that they see Poland and the US as decidedly unhelpful to that process.
Putin is achieving his aim of separating Europe (Germany and France) from US dominance.
It is a very different dynamic to the deal made with Yanukovych which included the US proxy, Poland, and Russia being present as an observer only.
Russia is in and the US (via proxy Poland) is out
“Of course, considering that the Ukie side has, so far, violated every single agreement it signed, this could also be just one more irrelevant document.”
I would be very surprised if the ZPC’s minions running the terrorism there will allow their banderivtsy to follow through with any peace agreement. It would interfere with their “lukewarm war” against Russia, of which a destablised Ukraine is an important part of the strategy. See this document:
Закон США №2277 (US law №2277)
http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1645032.html (trans) http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.ru/colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1645032.html US law №2277
The ZPC is in this for the long haul, now, there will be no voluntarily stopping their aggression until Russia and China submit to break-up colonisation. I don’t think there will be any real progress with the banderivtsy until the Novorussians go fully on the offensive and begin ousting the banderivtsy from the rest of the regions and the regime in Kiev looks to fall.
Yeah, yeah… Keep on dreaming :-(
The new UKR minister of defense is speaking of a victory parade in Sevastopol, while the new minister of foreign affairs tweet that there won’t be a unconditional ceasefire. And now, while Nazis thugs are bullying the ukrainian parliament, manifesting in front of it and requesting martial law, the UKR army leadership will be doubled checked with lie detector tests…
Yes, it does seem that a happy ending is in sight (sarcasm…:-)
This is now going to slowly run its course, with all the dangers inherent to an increasing distrust, hatred and now calls for revenge and ethnic cleansing.
NATO/US will more probably not settle for less that Russia’s humiliation hoping that this would lead to “color revolutions” in the southern republics of the Russian Federation. The goal is not only to destroy the RF, but to secure a continuous route to oil and gaz fields on the Caspian (and between) while depreving Russia of a southern facade, effectively making it a doomed state.
I see a lot of interesting comments but the bottom line is “it aint over till its over”. The Krajina Serbs were doing well in the first 2 years of the their struggle against nazi croatia only to be ethnically cleansed by a Croatian forces after a cease fire that gave the croats time to arm up and get the planing and training implemented that their american paymasters implemented for them ( does this sound familiar, it should.)
Putin will have to invest in significat amounts of hardware to do the same to the Donbass.
Without it we ll relive another Operation Storm.
You will have to excuse if I say President Putin is wasting his time. Obama is calling the shots and he WANTS war and Poroshenko will do his bidding. Prepared for genocide in East Ukraine ala Bosnia. When Obama or the Black House talks, you will hear scarcely a whimper from Merkel or Hollande against “Caesar” Obama imperial orders to Poroshenko. Merkel and Hollande are Obama’s vassals. Useless people ultimately. EU might as well break up.
Obama wants war and war is what he shall have. It may be too much to indulge in wishful thinking Americans will rise up and overthrow Obama and his gang or the world declaring Obama and his administration war criminals and acts to seize American assets allover the world and detain Americans as “enemies” of the world. A great for the world if these were to be. Then you won’t need Divine intervention.
> if the junta came to the realization that its offensive against Novorussia is going absolutely nowhere from a military point of view
No too much “ifs” again?
Ukies wanted too much at one time with unskilled forces. Now they changed tactics – they push huge steel hordes onto one encircled city, e.g. Nikolayevka today. Then came the Slaviansk and the next town, and another – step by step. Bloody scenario for every side but Kiev regime has “unfathomable” resources, as every state against handful of insurgents.
@Gayle
Also, Uki tanks are in the streets of Slavyansk, evidently.
Not Slavyansk, Nikolaevka.
The official account to collect funds for slovyansk militia under the command of i. Strelkova:
Map Of Sberbank
4276 3800 9734 2310
Link: icorpus.ru
This is the official Sberbank card account number for Slavyansk militia, Strelkov has confirmed it.
If this is true then dealing with Germany and France (only) is a significant development. Probably some time soon the CIA headquarters will burn down mysteriously.
This agreement was reached by the heads of state prior to Poroshenko’s capitulation (although some of the details may have been last-minute, i.e., unconditional, border arrangements). Certainly the Poroshenko regime is in critical condition, Russia controls the situation and Germany will have to make a rational choice for the future. The gambit has failed, is failing and will continue to fail. The only question is, how long will it play out and how many innocent people will die in the new terror state of Ukraine?
In the end, Novorussia, from Odessa on, will set the example of a modern, ethical, free humane state.
What is happening in the EU is happening in Japan : the Washington approved and installed “leaders” riding roughshod over the people’s will : NATO’s war against European Parliaments’ will and Shinzo Abe’s war against China using the Philippines and/or Vietnam vide the “Collective Self Defense” that was enacted without a referendum against the Japanese people’s will. When will the world see that the US is calling all the shots and driving the world to nuclear holocaust?
Lavrov in Berlin signing papers with the Nazi Junta that tomorrow will be forgotten while the new War Minister promises a victory parade in Sevastopol. Great job, Putin!
A couple more of these cease-fire and we are done!
I’d really like to ask for your opinion Saker:
Do you think that the absence of US in this meeting could be a signal that the relationship between EU and US are worsening?
I did find this article:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-02/emerging-german-russian-axis
but I have no idea if this could be true or not.
It is surely true that, with the election of Juncker as the European Commission President, Germany will have more of his way in Europe, at least I think so.
I would be really glad to hear your opinion on this, if you have time to answer of course.
@mata h ari
It may be too much to indulge in wishful thinking Americans will rise up and overthrow Obama and his gang
The vast majority of Americans are fat, asleep and plugged heavily into the Matrix via their televisions and iphones. Nominally “opposing” politicians have abandoned all semblance of ideals, and don’t bother to hide that they’re deeply in thrall to global corporations and (I’m sorry) Israeli interests. Nobody wants to hear about the genocide parading as “democracy” that USA! USA! is dealing abroad.
Whatever “America” used to be, is long gone.
I mourned for her, deep and long, when I finally realized this. Now I’m done.
Obama does not want war. He wants to humiliate Putin. However, the ass-clown in the Oval office is so over-matched by Putin.
The neo-conservatives want war. However, this war is a death notice to Russia. So, the neo-cons are losing. Russia is not Iraq or the Taliban or Libya. Putin is the grand master, not lunatic living in a desert tent.
This proxy war is determined by the proxy they use. A very weak-willed, confused and scared conscript Army with neo-nazi and criminals in the NatGuard. These kind of wars end badly for the perps when they face heroic militias and professional leadership.
Putin, I can estimate, has sent top Colonels to run the rebellion. With a minimum expense to Russia, the war is contained and going to seed for Kiev. Small villages are devastated, but the East has not changed since day 1.
Putin can clear the skies over Ukraine in half an hour, from the ground or in the air. IF you were the Kiev general or an American coordinator in Kiev, would you want all those tanks and APCs out there, twenty minutes from annihilation? Those are not weapons systems. They are sitting ducks.
I am betting inside every one of those tanks and APCs are white flags ready to go up where the Blue and Yellow fly today.
No Ukie soldier of any rank wants to die for Kiev.
They have to fly Poles and Lithuanians in their planes. They don’t even have enough brave souls to go up close and be snipers. They have lost dozens of foreign snipers. Where are the brave Ukie snipers? Those guys hide in APCs and rooftops and shoot civilians in Mariupol.
Kiev is a cruel joke of a failed state. It will crumble and fall politically, economically and strategically.
Putin has yet to pound them. Russia has yet to flex a finger in defense. God help the Ukies who will receive the fury if it is necessary to finish these scum.
I think Mariupol and Odessa will be where we see that fury. Those two cities are under Right Sector domination. Perfect for special forces to go neutralize. And who has more experience than Russia at cleaning nests of terrorists in cities?
This ending will be salutary and decisive.
BBC had aired a bit of an interview with the American ambassador to Ukraine – no change in tune from Washington: full support for Poroshenko, full blame on Russia, an assertion that the US and EU remain united. When asked about Kiev’s violation of their ceasefire he responded that “his information” differed and only the ‘rebels’ had violated the truce.
The new defense minister:
“In a sign that the offensive against the rebels could be set to intensify, Western-backed Poroshenko on Thursday reshuffled his top military leaders, naming a new defence minister and army chief.
“I am sure that Ukraine will win and believe me that there will be a victory parade,” Valeriy Geletey, a former police commander, told parliament after his confirmation as minister.”
His quote is incomplete – he said that the victory parade would be held in Sevastopol.
I fear that Porky is in the thrall of US handlers and will act as a traitor in the talks with the EU while he works with his American advisers to sabotage the talks and continue the violence. Question remains – does the EU (France and Germany) have what it takes to stand up to Washington and force Kiev to settle?
New Ukrainian Defence Minister Valeriy Heletey has vowed to hold “a victory parade” in Crimea, restoring the country’s territorial integrity.
Addressing parliament in Kiev, he said: “Believe me, there will be a victory parade – there will be for sure – in Ukraine’s Sevastopol.”
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28144334
Holy maloney! The UK’s Daily Mail – a hang ’em and flog ’em type of newspaper – has a story about the infamous bombardment of the rows of houses in the small village in the Lugansk. They compare it directly and explicitly to the destruction caused by the Nazis in WWII, with side-by-side comparative pictures.
Note also the content of the URL “American military advisers masterminding Ukraines surge against pro-Russian separatists bid expand NATO east”.
A must read.
I think Anonymous @03 JULY, 2014 15:51 is “almost” right.
This purported new ceasefire is not any better than the previous one but it seems to me that this is not the point, Russian appear to only want to slow down the mess as much as possible to gain time.
For WHICH purpose?
That would be the interesting information, what are they expecting?
Do they have a plan or are they just doing damage control?
I would caution any America citizen about donating to the militias.
They are categorized by the US government as terrorists. You would be in legal jeopardy to donate to them.
And Obama loves to hurt people who defy his megalomania.
Do you read your blog?
It is crystal clear that Igor Strelkov feels he only has a few days, perhaps hours, left before he and his compatriots die.
This declaration is completely irrelevant, particularly to the hundreds of men, women, and children who have already been murdered by Kiev.
Apparently, the innocent must not only suffer but be ignored and forgotten.
Well, at least we here living on the planet have finally got to the point where we can see what’s actually happening. So far, Russia is winning WWIV without firing a shot, using Twitter and Youtube. I really hope things keep moving in this direction, as an American it’s great to finally see the USA going down in flames.
I have a sense that something has changed in Washington since the Russian mediated deal on chemical weapons when it seemed that Washington might be open to a mediated settlement there that allowed Assad to retain power. I think there is an element that is pushing the Ukrainian crisis in retaliation and saying: “not backing down on support for Assad? We will push for war in Ukraine right on the Russian border and openly arm Assad’s foes.” No compromise, only surrender is acceptable. Partition of Iraq also seems to be the clear aim.
These people are evil and no amount of death and destruction has any affect on their thinking.
I think Strelkov is indulging in a little propaganda exercise, not the first time.
It is hell that people are dying. The fascist pigs in the west don’t care, but pretty much everybody else around the world does.
Well, at least we here living on the planet have finally got to the point where we can see what’s actually happening. So far, Russia is winning WWIV without firing a shot, using Twitter and Youtube. I really hope things keep moving in this direction, as an American it’s great to finally see the USA going down in flames.
A ‘final’ pessimistic thought: Should the the 3 way (F,G,R,U) talks fail to stop the Ukie onslaught Russia will face a choice – enforce a partion/ceasefire for humanitarian relief on its own (I am sure it will try to get EU support for this, but not likely to get it) or accept the ethnic cleansing of Donbass.
I have found out another reason why the oligarchs are so keen to take Ukraine into the EU. The EU apparently has laws requiring reparations for illegally acquired property. The hope to use records going back to 1917. So anyone without legal title to property predating 1917 may be in for a very nasty surprise. Their property (in the widest possible sense) is liable to confiscation.
The writer of the blog states “The signing of former Ukraine’s economic agreement with the EU carries so many pitfalls that “svidomyi ukry” again will curse this day”.
This, combined with the IMF austerity plan is going to hit many non-Jewish Ukrainians very, very hard.
And now, the feel-good story of the day, from SouthFront’s FB page:
Ukrainian forces now have only stray dogs to eat
The punitive forces of Kiev junta were blocked at the Lugansk airport by the self-defense. They have already eaten all the stray dogs – said the mass media with reference to own sources in Novorossia and the information from pro-Kiev media.
More at https://www.facebook.com/southfronteng
I never thought I’d be happy about people starving. But there it is.
@Larchmonter: Larchmonter445 said…
I would caution any America citizen about donating to the militias.
No worries, I’m not going to. I just wanted to know if someone could verify it.
People are missing that the Right Sector hordes are not controlled by the Kiev government, they are controlled by Ihor Kolomoyskyi.
Article talks about how Right Sector NatGuardsmen are on maneuvers that Kiev does not know about, are being paid with body armor that Kiev does not supply, get stiffed by Kiev because they officially are not on Kiev’s payroll.
http://rt.com/news/165472-ukraine-national-guard-mutiny/
at first I thought Kiev was keeping two sets of books, but remember (1) real NatGuard leaders got purged and replaced with hand-picked captains; (2) Ukraine is a mafia state run by mafia warlords; (3) Kolomoyskyi declared Right Sector to be his private army, said they weren’t standing down the last time.
Kolomoyskyi owns Burisma oil&gas through shadow corporations. Burisma hired not only Hunter Biden but also Devon Archer, who is a director of Diamondback Tactical, a body-armor and merc supply company run by the supposedly retired Deputy Chief of the Christians In Action. Look it up.
If Donbass secedes, Kolomoyskyi stands to perhaps lose billions. And this has been a Company revolution all along. So the independent National Guard has zero reasons to stand down, and mega reasons to continue their reign of terror, under their hand-picked captains on the Kolomoyskyi payroll.
It would be like Obama promising that the Alabama Tea Party won’t let the Alabama KKK National Guard continue to lynch black people. There is no real chain of command there.
So what Porky can and can’t pull off shows up in a new light.
Also, decisions are based on sensing & information-gathering. When no Ukrainian journalists are allowed in the East, and Kiev only hears what the captains report, then a black-hole distortion field of information is cast over the region. We are seeing this already in Washington; there is no reason to doubt it exists in Kiev as well. Remember the original NatGuardsmen were consistently amazed when they found out they were being ordered to slaughter civilians, not terrorists.
we might have a better picture of the whole than Porky. God help us all if this is the case.
No reason for Kolomoyskyi’s private army to stand down. He was not consulted.
Nuland and co. want Russians and Ukrainians to fight each other for divide-and-rule reasons. As long as they’re pulling the piglet’s strings there will be no negotiated cessation of hostilities. And even if the Kiev government was able and willing to stop its terrorist operation, that would have to be preceded by a lot of media prep work. The Ukrainian media has painted a bizarro picture of this war and most of the Ukrainian public has bought it. Under these conditions the kind of compromise that Novorossian leaders could agree to would provoke a third Maidan in Kiev.
I think that a Russian intervention is unlikely. If he hasn’t after all this, he probably never will. And the current official RF rhetoric is nowhere near war-like levels. I hate to say this, but the likeliest scenarios at this point are 1) the war continuing for many years, with no end in sight 2) a Novorossian defeat this year.
It’s official now: they’re going to go for Crimea (says the ukies’ bright shiny new Defense Minister, who signed his oath of office with a pen that still had its cap on *cough* loser *cough*)
Ukraine’s new defence minister promises Crimea victory
New Ukrainian Defence Minister Valeriy Heletey has promised that the army would retake Crimea, restoring the country’s territorial integrity.
Addressing parliament in Kiev, he said: “There will be a victory parade… in Ukraine’s Sevastopol.”
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28144334
Mata Hari brought up Japan as a proxy for US
I scour daily all things China, for the last 12 years. I think I know the temperature of the Chinese people, not just the inscrutable men in Zhongnanhai, Beijing.
1.3 billion Chinese, plus Taiwan will fight at the first instance of Japanese aggression.
Now, Russia will join, too.
And so will South Korea.
Japan can mount the Philippines from the rear, so to speak, but Vietnam will not be so used no matter how much they dislike the Chinese.
The US has to use Japan first. Abe is reckless, the imperialist and militarists are perfect fodder for insane missions, the Japanese liberal democracy is dead, the twenty year economic recession has ruined Japan, Fukishima hides a weapons program and the US Navy has to keep its carriers 1000 miles off shore from Chinese missiles.
However, China will fight, yes, a shooting war in the air and on the East China Sea if Japan wants it.
The people in China actually are leading the government in this one.
When the US actually sees the theatre of war aligned against them and Japan and Philippines and the costs, perhaps, someone will call it off.
The US is in a place and time where it only can use nukes to win anything. Big, first strike ICBM, theatre sized nukes. It has no stomach or capacity to engage in a WW style conflict. Without boots on the ground, that leaves nukes against large opponents.
Shock and Awe. That’s it. Now, tell me, does either China or Russia look anything like Libya or Iraq or Syria or Afghanistan?
The Hegemon has cheap targets to Shock and Awe in Africa. It does not have anything cheap in Eurasia. The Paciifc has a coast the US no longer can dominate. East China and South China are aptly named historically.
Japan has a few years left demographically for its new Imperialsim. It has no time left for its economy. Most of its industrial investment is in the nations it wants to reconquer. China, Malaysia, Vietnam, Korea, Indonesia. I don’t think the big boys in the board rooms in Tokyo want Abe’s war dreams. They will lose their investments fast.
He’ll be gone in 18 months. If a South Korean doesn’t assassinate him sooner. That’s where the bad blood really runs.
So America is letting the others demonstrate their impotence. They can say anything, but, come Saturday, a new offensive will wipe out more hospitals and apartment buildings. If Russia is unable or unwilling to fight the US directly, how on Earth would France or Germany? They are basically occupied by the interest groups that control NATO and the EUcracy.
Russia declared war on the US at some point; certainly with Syria. At least as “indispensable” folks see it. Surely the US will push as much as possible to damage the Russian economy and government in the Ukraine. It took over a year to get over the media blockade in Syria, and the atrocities were worse. Can Russia wait another year or so?
This “declaration” is as important as the previous shows in February (agreement with Yanukov and the EU violated the next day), Geneva in April (agreement for “deescalation”). I mean, it’s bs. I really don’t understand Russian’s faith in old-style diplomacy of papers and declarations. Russia seems a toothless bear begging for peace… Putin and Lavrov live in a foregone world of “western partners” and “deep regrets”. They don’t seem to see the evil they’re dealing with. Neville Chamberlain was also a gentleman. He never tried to “help” Hitler… It would be even worse if the reason of so much diplorrhea is some kind of PR campaign.
Back in the 80’s the USA engaged in one provocation after another. The KAL 1007 provocation is well known (which CIA asset Hersh tried hard to whitewash as an “accident”), this is an account of a less well known series of cowardly actions by the USN in an attempt to cower the USSR that ended with the USN cowered instead.
http://www.aif.ru/society/army/1149939 Звёздно-полосатая мишень. Как «Беззаветный» изгнал американцев из Крыма
“Stars and Stripes target. As “selfless” Americans expelled from Crimea”
In 1986, two USN ships, equipped with special electronic warfare assets, entered Soviet waters off Crimea to test the Soviet response. There was none to that incursion. But 2 years later, 1988, the USN tried the same trick again. This time the Soviet navy intercepted and rammed the USN ships. The videos in the article show that happening, along with the hilarious hysterical cries of the USN crew (definitely entertaining, despite the poor quality of the videos). One of the USN ships at one point started prepping a helicopter, but was informed by the Soviets it would be shot down if it left the deck because it would be within Soviet airspace. The USN decided not to launch the helicopter and retreat from Soviet waters. This was during the Gorbachev years, when Soviet-American relations were supposed to be good. Which just goes to show that things really have not changed with the USA, and that when dealing with that scum, it’s best to expect the worse. Much like dealing with nazi Germany had been, only probably even more sleazy.
“UPD 14: From the head physician of the hospital Snezhnjansky on preliminary data, during the battle for the last night of civilians killed 1,000 people (Saurovka, Dmitrievka, Stepanivka, Saur-Tomb, Marinovka). These unfortunately will grow, not all blockages dismantled.”
from: http://arbaletfire.livejournal.com/
Poroshenko implements the Iraqi plan of the USA in Ukraine
http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.ru/voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2435-poroshenko-realizuet-irakskiy-plan-ssha-na-ukraine.html
“The American plan of democratization of Ukraine is similar to the plan of the Bush-Blair the democratization of Iraq. Looking at the developments in Iraq now and for all subsequent after the American democratization years, we can see the future, “care” prepared by the American friends for Ukraine. Poroshenko decided to take this “friendly” planto go the way of Iraq to democratic happiness, specially built for him a kind uncle Sam.
The main component of the conducted action is inciting hatred. The same can now be observed in Ukraine. In fact, the West is waging war against the East. It should be noted that despite all statements Poroshenko ceasefire, the national guard under Ukraine does not cease to bomb the city’s South-East and kill civilians.
If Iraq there was a sparkling Psaki, it would be said that the main thing is not to prevent the unity of the country, unity against a common enemy of all Iraqis, Sunnis and Shias, USA. And continue to support this strife. At that time, was considered the norm about one blast weekly and a dozen killed in the attack. The CIA made sure that the fuse of hatred and genocide has not disappeared.
Thus, if you look in the face of reality, we can see the following. Comrade Yatsenyuk and his ilk have intensified the US plan for escalating discord inside the country. Poroshenko, the U.S. became the President of Ukraine and is simply obliged to continue the implementation of this plan. What we can see at the moment. If earlier “zapadentsy” just hated all in Russian, and East and South of Ukraine is just lived and did not pay attention to their neighbors, but now we have entered a new phase and that these regions will not be able to coexist single – an indisputable fact.
Vyacheslav Zverev”
Meanwhile, Bibi and Shimon are walking about with huge grins.
“Genocide on its way: Ukraine may see ‘total hell breaking loose’ – Law Prof.”
Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_07_03/Genocide-on-its-way-Ukraine-may-see-total-hell-breaking-loose-Law-Prof-8125/
I am afraid this is where my thinking is headed :(
Larchmonter, are you saying that the Fukushima accident had to do with a secret nuclear weapons program? If so, can you cite any links that explore that possibility?
I doubt very much that China and Japan will go to war in the foreseeable future. Nuclear MAD has worked worldwide for 65 years, a period which saw many changes of personnel, ideology and many shifts in alliances. It seems to be very robust. Why would it stop working now?
Japan doesn’t really need nukes because a situation where the US stops supporting it is very difficult to imagine. China will be America’s chief rival for the foreseeable future. As long as the US is aligned against China, it will have to back its natural enemies, which is where Japan comes in. And even in case of an economic collapse in the US Washington will still have nukes. Russia maintained an arsenal all through the 90s disaster. What’s wrong with that logic?
For all the nay-sayers out there, consider this. What would possibly motivate the Ukrainian gov’t to suddenly agree to a comprehensive and unconditional cease fire – barely 2 days into their much vaunted plan B? Seriously take a moment and reflect on the complete turn of face on that issue.
Are they just being duplicitous? Possibly, but then why even go through the charade at this point if they are expecting to win?
Is it because they are losing badly? I doubt it: 1)they haven’t been winning since this thing started and have shown no inclination to suddenly put on the brakes; 2)I don’t think that the Ukies expect to lose this time round – they have way too much material and will just grind Novorossia down. I do think that as things stand now, they are going to pulverize the DND – just a matter of time.
So if the above is true, then why would they suddenly – out of the blue – agree to a comprehensive and unconditional cease fire? Anybody see where I’m going with this?
I believe Putin did make his move and probably said something along the following lines to Porky: “Knock this the fuck off now or I’m going to end you. Last chance.” Just a guess, but something for sure has got Kiev singing a different tune.
Larchmonter445, what you said maybe true, except it will not work on the time frame you like. Things like this usually never happen at the time you want it to happen.
Regarding your Abe comments, it is right on. With a decline Japaneses demographics, industry pretty much depends on China and other pacific rim nations, and no resources (yes, it is the world’s other pirate nation), he wants to contain China. He is Reckless with R. It is so comical to see him acts like his master Obama as if he owns Asia, and trying to put a wedge between Indian and China.
This conflict in eastern Ukraine reminds me of a pithy summary of the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah: He said “The Iranians supplied the anti-tank missiles and we supplied the targets”
Skuppers – I fear the ‘willingness to negotiate’ is a pr tactic pushed by the US for the benefit of the EU doubters who are not on board with US intentions. I trust nothing “reasonable sounding” coming out of Kiev at this point. The defense ministers statement was an ill advised but truthful representation of policy IMO, and likely he was encouraged to say such a thing because he is aware of the depth of US support. If you remember the anti truce demonstration in Kiev it is also likely the government would fall if they pursue any actual move toward reconciliation with the separatists.
I just wish the Germans had the cajones to tell the US to fuck off (to paraphrase Ms Nuland) and back a Russian peacekeeping force NOW.
Anonymous 15:35,
More than likely the border is porous in other areas than the official crossings. It’s hard to imagine men and/or materiel announcing themselves officially with paperwork and all.
Larchmonter 445,
But what kind of East will Putin get? Not sure whether the gas/oil/farmland deals will still fly but I’m guessing they will. But everything will need rebuilding, including the people. I guess it’s kind of the old, “Well, if I can’t have her, no one else will either” kind of attitude… Scorched earth, scorched people — what do you think the odds are of these monsters ever being brought to justice? Not Poroshenko, I said six months outside maybe a week ago but he’ll be luck to still be sucking a breath come Labor Day. But the rest of them? Let’s see what happens to Tony Bliar — I’m guessing… nothing. And Cheney will live to a ripe old age, however many new hearts it takes.
But I sure like what you said about Mariupol and Odessa! From your mouth to God’s ear, as they say.
james@wpc,
“It may signal that Germany and France really want to achieve a ceasefire in partnership with Russia and that they see Poland and the US as decidedly unhelpful to that process.”
Lordy, I hope you’re right! I just wonder how Merkel and Hollande finessed that: “Hello Barack, this is Angela, uh…” ;~)
mata h ari,
Omigosh — why didn’t I think Abe is our guy? For gosh sakes, of course he is! But what the people of the world think really is irrelevent — we’re resources to extract and/or impediments to same. All that matters iss what the (oligarch-controlled) leaders think — or dare to do.
Gayle,
Yes, to everything you said. Dammit.
the pessimist,
It’s worth it to take everything Poroshenko and his new crew say with a huge grain of salt: they’re all between a rock and a hard place, which is still a lot better than they deserve. So I’d take note of what they say, but pay a lot more attention to the extent to which they follow through, on any of it. But do you really think anything has changed in Washington since, uh, it was built? It’s just more of a free-for-all under Obama, and a little more difficult to figure out who’s actually calling the shots on, uh, just about anything. The person he spoke to last? People behind his back? Whoever has the most money? Whoever can imprison or kill the most people? God only knows.
Here’s a disquieting report:
NO prisoners taken under white flags under the new rules of the Ukie’s ATO rules of engagement.
No Prisoners Under White Flag
So they are officially a criminal regime by action and policy. The only thing that protects them from the gallows is the Hegemon.
Putin will add this to the legal case when the blood bath ends.
And it will end a lot sooner than most think. The dynamics of the various killing machines in the field, the delusion in Kiev and the insanity in Washington and Brussels cannot be sustained in a state of suspension. Cease fires drive them wild. And if they don’t hold to cease fires, if they continue their evil, Russia will extinguish them.
Putin wants some normalization along the borders, and in international relations and problem-solving. If everyone, the UN, EU, NATO, national leadership and security associations want this conflagration, they won’t get it too much longer. Russia will put out the fire. And then a massive Nuremberg-like drama will unfold. Men who ordered this madness will be put in orange jumpsuits facing the gallows.
He will make an example for the world to know what it means to kill Russians like stray dogs or subhumans.
Ukraine soldier with swastika.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nmo9dZTmo0
Uploaded on 3 Jul 2014Subscribe to VICE News here: http://bit.ly/Subscribe-to-VICE-News
Not long after a so-called ceasefire ended in eastern Ukraine Monday night, the Ukrainian military sent a column of artillery into Sloviansk and officially began its offensive. The Russian and Ukrainian governments, along with representatives from the OSCE, called for a new effort to establish another ceasefire, setting a deadline of Saturday for the resumption of talks. For now, however, the war continues.
Anonymous 17:12, Glossy and Gayle,
So in that sense Poroshenko and his foreign minister have plausible deniability every which way… Jeesh, sure sounds like more-of-the-same for Novorossiya, doesn’t it.
Larchmonter445,
Fukushima hides a weapons program? Not just run-of-the-mill incompetence plus the typical corporate-head-in-the-sand, Japanese-style?
вот так,
Ginning up internal division and hatred to create failed states: It’s. What. We. Do. Best.
Please let that be a caution, bc it’s being done to us too. And if you don’t work on changing that, let alone still buy into it, you’re part of the problem.
@Glossy
Japan Secret Weapons
Here’s a good brief on Japan and Nuke Weapons.
Also, the DOE has a very close monitoring operation they brag about to keep the lid on Japan. Why is that if they aren’t trying to build weapons?And according to audits of their stockpiles of plutonium, there is a huge amount of the fissionable stuff missing. Imagine that?
This Japan, under Abe, is maniacal. It isn’t Sony’s or Panasonic’s or Ninetendo’s Japan. This isn’t Toyota or Nissan. It’s the Rising Sun with nukes.
If the US by treaty has the nuclear umbrella to protect them, why their own nukes? Answer: proxy war for the Hegemon.
Larchmonter445,
No prisoners? Dear God.
But in which court, exactly, will Putin be able to *successfully* get these monsters tried-and-fried? We’re not even a signatory to the ICC but run it anyway. And I’m beginning to think that lovely agreement just signed is no more than CYA/temporizing by Ukraine, France and Germany — just in case Putin does prevail and they all go up on charges. (“See, we tried, we really did try!”)
Nora, it is the actions that worry me, and the words that best fit with those actions. Porky declared a cease fire with terms that he knew wouldn’t be accepted and used the interval to build up forces for an assault (and to get the press headline “Porky declares unilateral truce”). Both he, and now the defense minister have vowed to take back Crimea. They would not say such things without a commitment from the US to back them with military force, as they can be under no illusions about Ukie military capabilities. We heard Obama make this commitment in Poland.
I believe the short term strategy is to close the border, cut off and surround the centers of resistance and blast them to bits, including destroying critical infrastructure, killing many many civilians both as a demonstration/warning to other areas that might be unhappy with Kiev and to kill as many of the fighters as possible while they are at it.
Unless the fighting spreads they will be able to starve out the remnants with the forces they have assembled.
With talks scheduled for this weekend, if the report of more than 1,000 dead after last nights attack is true, then there will be thousands more by Saturday, and they can continue to attack while the discussions occur.
Given the scale of destruction and death so far the resistance will be unwilling to give any ground toward settlement unless they get an ironclad guarantee of safety backed by outside force. They know that without this they will be killed or rounded up and hung.
I feel a great apprehension today that many innocent people are about to die while evil is rewarded. I pray that this is not the case.
@ Nora,
1. The East. The deals pre-Maidan were with China. Food, oil and gas, and now, reconstruction as a humanitarian thing. China wants good relationships with everyone. And Chinese money into the East is good for Russia. Less drag on their budget.
China is also going in for $10 billion of development into Crimea. Crimea is going to have casinos for the Chinese, I am sure.
2. Courts? Putin will follow the US/Obama precedent. You kill Americans and Obama drags you off the streets of anywhere and takes you to court. (of course, he doesn’t do this readily, but he wants Islamic terrorists out of military courts and into US Fed court.)
So, Putin will do or can do likewise. FSB/special ops grabs them and take them to Russia.
They are breaking laws against humanity. Any court will do. The ICC isn’t special. It’s for clowns from Africa. Though I’d love to see our ass-clown Obama sitting in cuffs in the Hague.
This is a major article by a long standing major U.S. investigative reporter. The word is out. People know the scam. Obama’s drop in popularity is a direct response of the people to Obama administration policies toward the Libya, Syria, Ukraine.
Itching for a Genocide By Robert Parry
“So the only course that Official Washington can seem to see ahead is one of unleashing Ukraine’s conventional military force and its paramilitary adjuncts against the popular resistance in the East, a path that could put the Obama administration and the mainstream U.S. press corps on the side of the violent suppression of ethnic Russians, a situation that could easily slide into ethnic cleansing and even genocide.”
вот так,
Oh fergawdsakes, I just re-read my comment to you and *please, please know* that second paragraph was absolutely NOT aimed at you in the particular: I was using “you” as a general statement to, like, everyone!!!!! Omigosh, I’m truly sorry about that!
As pointed out by several doubting commenters, the Kiev puppets have never honored Agreements.
On a good day, Can’t make this stuff up. The ink is not yet dry on this cease-fire document.
Gayle @ 03 July 17:23 brings to our attention there is this dude, appointed Ukrainian Defence Minister by poorOsenko, who alerts the RF polite armed men in green that the army would retake Crimea, restoring the country’s territorial integrity. Addressing parliament in Kiev, he said: “There will be a victory parade… in Ukraine’s Sevastopol.”
Defence Minister huh? Did he say with what army? NATO? Will Vicky Nuland be handing out cheesecakes at the victory parade?
This dude deserves an opening gig on the new, 2050 David Letterman show.
Pleasant evening
Anon Mongoose
This could be true and very good news:
(Translation)
Ukrainian military with mountains Karachun attacked and blew up its own magazine.
On Politkus.ru
Received a message from militia, which States that in the night of 3 to 4 July Ukrainian artillery attacked and blew up its own magazine, the blast was very powerful. The assistant of the commander of the militia of the city of Slavyansk and defense Minister Donetsk national Republic Igor strelkov commented on this event: The valiant defenders of korochun all decided to make the planned adjustment of its security zone, accidentally hitting one of its ammunition depots. Illumination is not worse Las Vegas happened.
Источник: http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.en/politikus.ru/events/23369-ukrainskie-voennye-s-gory-karachun-obstrelyali-i-vzorvali-sobstvennyy-sklad-boepripasov.html
Politikus.ru
Karuchun
Saker:
You have far too much hope for the Coup Government agreeing to anything. Ukraine is now ruled by patholigical liars and murderers.
Remember what Jesus said of such people?
“You are of your father, the devil. And you will carry out the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning. And he did not stand in the truth, because the truth is not in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks it from his own self. For he is a liar, and the father of lies.” (St. John 8.44)
When you watch and listen to Petro$ Porcochoco and Arseclown Avakov and Arsehole Yatseniuk and Olexander Turdinov and the rest of the coup Nazi’s, realize you are watching the frothing madness of hell and the rule of Satan in this world through men he posses – murderers and liars seething with a madness for the blood of the innocent.
Nothing they say can be trusted and relied upon, and the only resolution to this tragedy will be the overthrow of the Kiev government.
Andrew,
Good description of the satanic team in Kiev.
Keep in mind that Lavrov and Putin and the diplomatic team are laying a foundation for cause.
Just as the stealth military events and resupply are sub rosa, invisible and utterly deniable. Everything is for a purpose.
I don’t believe anyone in Moscow trusts the word, the signature or the oaths of Kiev.
This is all a legal, political, geopolitical, diplomatic dance documenting the exhaustion of all other means to settle the issue.
It follows the Moscow-Putin philosophy of exhausting legal means, good cooperation, responsible negotiation.
Then comes HELL! And hell will be in many forms and in many places.
I believe we will even see some extra-legal neutralizations before this Kiev gang of criminals is liquidated. Putin keeps his promises.
Nora,
My guess is that if Russia enters Ukraine and if they are able to capture any of the criminals, they will hold them until they can hand them over to a legitimate, sane and representative govt in Ukraine for prosecution.
The crimes were and are being committed in Ukraine and against Ukrainians so no one could argue against their right to try criminal charges against these thugs.
This would be in line with Putin’s respect for other nations sovereignty and this is his defining difference with “the West”.
Back to the joint statement, I’m sure Putin doesn’t for a minute think that Poroshenko will keep his word. What Putin is doing is drawing Kiev into a process that will take away any plausible deniability or any excuses for their plainly murderous behaviour. Putin is making it progressively harder for anyone in Europe to support Poroshenko et al. And by extension, taking away support for the US. Putin is slowly isolating the psychopaths which is the most effective and least damaging way to deal with psychopaths in any situation.
Unfortunately, we all seem to be locked into this violence versus violence type of thinking. It is psychopathic thinking and only benefits the psychopaths in the end. There is another way – self defence when needed and negotiation and isolation for the rest.
I believe that Putin is doing nothing less than introducing a whole new paradigm into international relations. A new paradigm which will isolate and paralyse the power of the bankers, the cause of most of the world’s strife.
@Nora: I fully agree with James in everything he says. The importance of this statement is not that anybody, much less so Putin (or myself, for that matter) puts any trust into Poroshenko’s word, if only because he is just a puppet for the USA, but because, as James says, it creates a precedent part of “a process that will take away any plausible deniability or any excuses for their plainly murderous behaviour. Putin is making it progressively harder for anyone in Europe to support Poroshenko et al. And by extension, taking away support for the US. Putin is slowly isolating the psychopaths which is the most effective and least damaging way to deal with psychopaths in any situation.“
The game played by Russia is far more subtle than just “war or peace” “trust or distrust” and James is spot on, imho.
Big hug to Mrs and Ms Nora,
The Saker
PS: cheers to you too, James, thanks for being here!
Uh Saker,
I don’t have any problem with gays but, uh, Mr. Nora would be pretty surprised to know he’s a female…
;~)
I found what both you James had to say very interesting, and can certainly see the various ways the mice are tying up the elephant, as Mr. Aesop would say. But if Poroshenko will say anything to anybody — which certainly seems to be the case — how exactly is he being constrained from *doing* whatever we tell him to? I can see the verbal concessions he has made but I’m walking around with tears in my eyes from the last 24 hours worth of depredations and I’m not going to believe anything about anything until the killing stops. And I’m figuring Poroshenko himself will be long gone before that happens — and praying and praying that you and James are right and I’m totally wrong. But liars lie, they have no honor, they don’t keep their word, they haven’t the slightest qualm about saying anything and then doing whatever they damned well please.
Um . . . Thanks Saker! It’s the only place to be :)
There’s your good self and many excellent commenters with lots of information and insights. I find it all very valuable and encouraging.
Nora said …
” But liars lie, they have no honor, they don’t keep their word, they haven’t the slightest qualm about saying anything and then doing whatever they damned well please.”
That is entirely true, Nora. But liars cause damage through being able to deceive people. They need the co-operation of a whole cast of naive or non-understanding people who are actually working for the liars and against their own interests.
But when the liars and their lies are exposed, this enabling co-operation stops and with it the power of the liars over other people. The liars are then isolated and powerless.
Psychopaths represent about 5% of the general population. They are very much in the minority and we normal peace-loving people have the power collectively. We just need to see that and what Putin is doing is educating people into that understanding.
The first step is to correctly identify the liars for what they are to the general public and the ‘international community of nations’. That is what Putin is achieving through these negotiations.
It is frustrating and maddening, I know, especially when innocent people are dying by the hour. But psychopaths have been killing for centuries (with our unwitting help) and will continue to do so until the world does something different in combating it.
Putin’s way is that ‘something different’, imho
To continue, I can see quite clearly that I’m being over-emotional and I do understand Putin’s long-game, and I know it’s wise, shrewd and essential. It’s just all those dead bodies and people scarred forever inside and out and what little they had destroyed, all for the sin of having lived in a place for a thousand years or so. Just like Iraq, where it was also easy to see exactly what was going on right from the start. All this death and destruction is really getting to me, Saker. I can’t imagine what it must be like for those people, totally trapped — can’t even get out now — just like fish in a barrel. Like Gaza. But it took 800 years for the Irish and 700 for Russia to throw off the yoke of oppression; Palestine is close to 70 years of non-being, Iraq and everyone else affected by Sykes-Picot are close to 100, Serbia — well when do I start counting? And now we’ve got to watch this all unfold in slow-motion too just because the Eurobeaurocrats still haven’t figured out how to extricate themselves from us either? sigh
But Mr. Nora did chuckle at your typo and here are a couple of hugs back. I really don’t know what we’d do without you. I’ll stop reeling eventually and start thinking again, I promise. But the horror of it all just hangs in, like low thunderclouds overhead on a hot, muggy day. And God alone knows what the storm will bring before it breaks and the weather gets decent enough to survey and do something about the damage.
James@wpc,
Your words are very wise, and I do understand. It’s just hard to keep a decent perspective sometimes in the face of these atrocities. And yes, and it’s on all of us as well as Putin to get the truth out and expose these monsters, but there are two audiences, the general public and our rulers. (Why call them representatives when they represent their own interests only, hardly ours?) Even Sikorsky gets it now, so I’m figuring most of them do understand even if they do their best to run from that understanding. Meanwhile the general public is pretty far from any true understanding, a task made even more difficult by the collaborationist farce that is the media. And my real concern is that despite Putin’s success at making it ever more difficult for the EU honchos to support Kiev, it will take a massive sea-change in public opinion to force their hands, and we’re still a long, long way from that. I do think he’s paving the way, and taking the very best course to do so but James, so many more people will die — for nothing, for the sin of existing — before that happens. And here go the damned tears again.
Re “potentially, this could be huge. Of course, considering that the Ukie side has, so far, violated every single agreement it signed, this could also be just one more irrelevant document.”
It is HUGE!
No, I do not think that the Maidanites in power in Kiev will accept any of this. The Ukrainian “Foreign Minister” – what ever his name is, looked like a bellboy in the photographs – agreed on this on his own without getting approval from his masters on Maidan or in Washington. That was not really relevant, the French and German ministers simply walked over him.
Will Porky implement the agreement? Maybe. I would say 60/40 chance that he will not, but that too is irrelevant. Even is he does, Kolomoisky’s Nazi battalions will still run around amok.
What the agreement means is that there are now absolutely no political impediments to Russia sending a “peacekeeping” force – or a peace enforcement force, as it would properly be called – to Donbass. In fact I think the force may be sent in regardless of the fate of the ceasefire.
I’ve read the Petras interview mentioned elswhere: http://www.rebelion.org/noticia.php?id=186753
and it really does not give much reason to be hopeful. He insists on one thing that has seldom been discussed here, and that is the pressure of the Russian oligarcs on Putin. He says Putin is acting with great tact and has a lot of prestige internationally, is a reasonable man and his proposals of federalization are sound, but Petras detects a gap between Putin’s words and his eagerness to seek deals in order to avoid sanctions. Petras asssumes, resonably, that the big Russian oligarcs who control the Russian economy are telling him to keep a low profile, to stay out of it, because they know they will be damaged by the reaction of the West. So, as Petras puts it, Putin gives words to Novorussia and actions (i.e. non-action) to the oligarcs.
Petras comparison of this conflict with the Spanish civil war is also discouraging to the extent it may be apt. In that civil war, the fascists kept on receiving big material support from Germany and Italy, while the other side depended on international good will, and they were eventually abandoned. We know that the fascists won that war and were vicious, merciless with the other side. People kept on being killed for years after the war ended. Hundreds of thousands fled the country, mostly to France and South America, but a not insignificant number went to Russia.
I like to read posters like Larchmonter445 to try and absorb some of their optimism. But often I am very pessimistic. It is not inconceivable that the covert aid may prove insufficient and that Putin may find himself prevented from open intervention by the big Russian oligarcs, who after all must have some considerable power, I would guess.
@Larchmonter445 01.41
Amen to that (hell for those demons)!
But…. may I note that in 2008 hell did break loose in less than 24 hours? And it had also to overcome a recalcitrant Medvedev (who was then President)….
I wonder about the difference. The only difference I can see is that today the aggression is much worse in terms of geopolitical danger and number and magnitude of atrocities committed.
So, I am really at loss here to explain the different approach, as everybody else I would add, because nobody has not even tried to address that difference.
@James and Saker
Apart from the fact that are several years by now that the D-Empire has been exposed openly and widely as just a horde of murderers, thieves and liars (whoever has not seen that is just not paying attention and will never do, or does not give a damn and will never do), I would argue that if you see your son being mauled by a mad dog, you first daub the mad dog on the asphalt and only after speak with the neighborhood to justify your actions.
And that even if you before did expressly warn your son against going out (Putin advice to postpone the referendum). After all, I’m pretty sure that the mad dog would have gone in anyway, even if the son would have listened.
A few have said that Russia does not consider those dying daily in Novorossija her sons.
If that is really the case, I declare here and now, officially, that Russia is then just a mere antithesis to the D-Empire.
Much better than the thesis, sure, but anyway a constituent of the devilish synthesis which rules this world.
While I agree with James to a ‘T’ about the Russian strategy I fear that Kiev cannot/will not agree to an acceptable deescalation and ceasefire. There are reports of multiple rocket launching systems being positioned around Donetsk today and the fear is that they will be used against civilian areas to cause mass panic in the city along with the inevitable terrible casualties amongst the population.
From V0R:
“At a time when, the Kiev authorities hold talks with Moscow, Berlin and Paris on the necessity for working out a long-term ceasefire in the south-east, the army has launched an offensive. Attacks are being carried out not only on the check points of the self-defence forces. The army is carrying out carpet bombing on peaceful settlements. Earlier, people hid in basements to save their lives from bullets and shrapnel. But there is no safe place for them now when the Ukrainian military uses cluster ammunition and rocket launchers. On Wednesday, they destroyed an entire street in the village of Luganskaya. Dozens of people were killed under the debris. A few days ago, there were houses but now there are only up to two-meter deep shell holes and fragments of bombs. The identification marks have remained on many fragments, and they help to identify the bombs by watching photos and video reports, says Colonel of the Russian Air Force Sergei Reznichenko.
“These metallic fragments help to definitely conclude that they are pieces of an S-25 air-to-ground missile launched from an aircraft. The missile passes through the house and penetrates deep into the basement and explodes. Its crater effect is very powerful and the missile destroys the entire building, Colonel Reznichenko said.”
Read more: http://indian.ruvr.ru/2014_07_04/Ukrainian-military-commit-war-crimes-3998/
Apparently the deadline for Kiev is 5 July. Not clear what comes next but I pray that Russia has Merkel’s support if they move – at least tacit if not open.