Unz.com has posted a great piece from Israel Shamir: Kiev: Chestnuts Blossom Again. Shamir recently visited Kiev and gave his impressions. SPOILER: He’s rather pessimistic about the idea that the hardships imposed on Ukrainians by the war and the IMF are going to lead to any serious regime-change activity against Porky. At least in public, most of the Ukrainians he dealt with seemed content to blame Russia for all their problems.
He is usually right about things. I don’t like what he is saying in this piece, It seems Putin’s time is up. Russia needs a much more truculent leader.
Wend, I don’t agree. But it seems like some people that are like locals on this blog suddenly have become what Saker calls, ‘Hurray Patriots’. I think we need to be patient…do we really want to see ‘more action’ ?
In answer,yes,I do. I want to see the defeat of the junta and end to the killing of civilians in Donbass. The day to day slaughter of innocents is horrible.So yes,I guess I’m one of the “Hurray Patriots” for that. I don’t see any other solution that will achieve that end. And putting off what we will have to do anyway,but at the cost of more lives is not something I favor.
Dear Uncle Bob..if you feel that way..then go there. Why is Putin supposed to do the job…be like Texas and go there..then you see how futile this fighting is. Until the EU is willing to admit the truth people will die. But to throw Russia at them is not your’s to decide.
Putin and Russia don’t have a choice, they are involved.It is their people there,blood of their blood.It is their history there.It is their security involved.Some like to think they could just turn their backs and do nothing.But that isn’t possible.If Russia expects to exist as a state it must act.And if Putin expects to retain power in Russia for long,he must act.This isn’t like events happening in Uganda for Russia.It is like events happening in Canada would be for the US.For over a thousand years Russians have been “involved” in that land.Because the calendar has a new date of 2015 doesn’t mean anything.
but many Ukrainians don’t like Russia anymore. Sorry, I don’t know the answer but more violence is not the way forward…its like just using monsanto for ‘this one’…lots of people feel that way about using roundup….as though this is ‘different’, or small change or something. Heaping wrong upon wrong doesn’t make it right..and I know that sounds like idealistic philosopher stuff..but the world is getting more and more violent…when will it stop, unless we stop…? And you can’t expect the ‘bad guys’ to stop first.
But the violence has to end, and people will suffer until it does. Otherwise when ‘does’ the violence stop ?
I don’t know when the violence will stop.But I do know that refusing to fight for right, won’t make the “bad guys” see the light and stop as well. Studying the history of the World from ancient days until today shows me that very clearly.Gandhi was probably a wonderful person.But he alone with his “non-violence” didn’t free India.Had the British not been so damaged from WW2 and the rise of socialism in Asia, they would never have pulled out.And when they did, they left India mutilated first.Which led directly to Gandhi’s murder.Might,may not make right.But weakness,certainly invites your destruction in this World we live it.
yes, that is the paradox…Christ let himself be killed….its a tough example to set…but its the only way. Of course its easy for someone like me to say that from my armchair in a safe land…somewhat anyways….but that is the example of a world religion’s founder. And the Russian people are the ‘people of Christ’ according to Rudolf Steiner.
If the World was made up of Jesus Christs.We would have no problems (probably),but it isn’t. Most leaders throughout history seem to be more along the lines of a little less violent Hitlers,and Stalins,than Christ’s or Gandhi’s.There is a new popular saying that I think we need to understand “what is,is”.The World isn’t as we’d like.And when deciding what to do,we (countries) have to deal with the World we have.Not the one we’d like to have.
18:39
“Russia regards seizure of Russian accounts
in Belgium as unfriendly act, major breach
of intl law – Russian Foreign Ministry”
Yes it is.
And potentially sets a neat precedent for re-claiming control of the RCB. After all, if banks in other jurisdictions are seizing sovereign assets, what continuing basis is there for the primacy of international law over activities of the RCB?
re: Gilad Atzmon and Rav. Yaacov Shapiro: Yes, more key conversations could begin better with: “We made a terrible mistake…” How is the human race to survive if this does not happen more often and in other arenas ofl assessment as well? Humility is a virtue rarely seen or appreciated or even really understood these days.
This level of questioning and discourse encouraged here is why I appreciate this blog.
Thank you Saker for posting this very good discussion .For me, it’s gives articulation to the confusion which is called Zionism while at the same time explaining those who say they are Jews and who are not .Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro’s saying that how we get trapped into the discussion was also interesting and falls along the line of asking someone if they still abuse their wife and wanting a yes or no answer to the question . … very interesting indee
One question though. Rabbi was referring,correct me if i am wrong,to world in plural. Jews in the worlds,for example. Why not singular? Thus anyone know why is that?
Hard to know what to say. Haven’t finished watching it all But watching the first bloke explaining his thoughts I thought the bloke with the traditional hat and beard would be a bit upset.
When he mentioned the mossad guy in the audience I cracked up.
But my thought is.. these two can sit and discus what they think with respect for each other.
I have trouble believing that there is an unseen deity. God. At the same time I respect other peoples beliefs.
Near the start of the the old testament in the bible and I am guessing this part is the same for Jews, Christians and Moslems, it says that god made man in his own image.
But I look at the psychopaths that often come to power in the name of a religion or ideology?
And then there’s the other religions not related to the Jewish religion and the Prophets?
Anglo/Zionism cannot be wiped out same as Nazies and psychopaths using Islam as an excuse for extremism cannot be wiped out, but the US dollar and the US military can be destroyed which is the backbone of the psychopaths that are causing most of the world problems today.
“I have trouble believing that there is an unseen deity. God.”
Believing in God is one thing. But the Jews (and the Christians and the Muslim) don’t believe in God, they believe in God as presented by their scriptures, that is, they believe in… books!
Gilhad uses ‘Jewishness’ but I think the word ‘Fundamentalist’ might also be used to describe, in any of the big religions of the world, something that is not healthy, not religious, not ‘good’.
well, personally, I don’t even think Israel is a land. It was originally a person…although the last two letters, ‘el’ mean archangel…or perhaps ‘god’…Rapha-el, Micha-el, Gabri-el, and so forth…higher beings…I think the angel that fought with Jacob and then named him Isra-el … perhaps that was the angel’s name.
Anyway, Israel is the people of Jacob. and Judah was one of his sons….and Jews are from Judea….
Perhaps this is one of the reasons that Dugan calls for a “political angelology.” The Greek word from which ‘angel’ is derived means “messager.” It is probably less potentially blasphemous than Carl Schmitt’s Political Theology — just my two Federal Reserve Notes.
@Israel is the people of Jacob…Jews are from Judea
Ah, if more people would show your common sense and understanding, we would have less difficulties in comprehending the palavers about what “Judaism”, “Jewish identity”, “Zionism” really are.
See, taking the bible as a law for all time is Fundamentalist. When God told Joshua to kill all the people…well, we’re talking about thousands of years ago…that’s basically the way savages lived back then. The tribe of Abraham was savages. But that was then. They got more civilized as time went by, and eventually you have such a person as Jesus, born of the tribe of Judah…a real Jew…and also John the Baptist…a real Jew….born in Judea.
@Israel is the people of Jacob…Jews are from Judea
Ah, if more people would show your common sense and understanding, we would have less difficulties in comprehending the palavers about what “Judaism”, “Jewish identity”, “Zionism” really are.
I wonder whether the idea that Jesus was something more than a Jew, the Son of God for example, and that it may have a bearing on the case of “Jewishness” vs “Jewish political identity” and rejection of Christianity by those Jews, crossed your mind? That all the charade was not about the Jews in the end although they try desperately to occupy the center stage at all times?
well. I feel embarrassed to have so much to say here, but my feeling with the first video is that the Rabbi has a more logical and understandable argument. Gihad is very enchanting speaker, but I think he’s a secular Jew and so is ‘confused’ about Jewishness Judishness and so forth…he speaks from the confused secular viewpoint of modern Israel..whereas I totally agree with the Rabbi…Judaism, Jewishness is a religion…period.
@Ann. We see a similar situation in Christian thinking also .Some claim to be a Christian because they live in what has been called a Christian society . We here some claim to be Christian because they were baptized as a baby and have the paper work to prove it . We see ministers that take courses at university and then lead denominational Churches .
Like the Torah can create a Jew so too can the Gospel create a Christian .God uses both to get the results He wants .ie Not all Christians are Christians and not all that call themselves Jews are .
I wonder how much the Zionists were influenced by Nietzsche and his inverted Gospel. I also like how the previous article on Fr. Romaniedes’ book focused on ‘roman’ and ‘greek’ and how Rabbi Shapiro discussed ‘jewishness’ and ‘jewiness’. Often, human labels are used to contradistinguish groups and highlight rivalries, but just as often they denote positive content.
The first Zionists were anti-religious.They considered Jews a “nation” in the European ethnic sense.The fact that being a “Jew” was defined by most in those days as only a religious designation wasn’t important for them.
The historical backgrounds of Religions is a fascinating subject.One of the saddest and true facts is that much of the population of today’s Palestine is descended from the “ancient Hebrews” the people existing at the time of Jesus.In mass,over the centuries those people converted,first to Christianity,and later to Islam.While many of the people considered European Jews are descended from European converts to Judaism over the centuries in the ancient days.There are other examples as well.Most people in what we now call Croatia and Serbia (and Bosnia and Montenegro) are descended of the same ethnic groups.They and others among the non-Slav peoples there became,Croats or Serbs,because of their religion.In ancient days,in most cases your religion in diverse areas, became your badge of “nationality”.If you accepted Orthodoxy you became a Serb.If Islam you were called a “Turk” and now a Bosniak.If you became Latin Catholic you became a Croat.In Ireland,among other places it was the same.Many “Irish” are descended from English settlers that stayed Catholic at the Reformation.While many considered “English” were descended of Irish that adopted the Protestant faiths.In Western “Rus” (now Ukraine,Belarus,parts of Poland) if you were Latin Catholic you quickly became “Polish”.The Greek Catholics were a “half-way” house for people there.Some of them over the course of a century went all the way and changed to Latin Rite and became Polish. The numbers of notable people in Polish history descended from “Rus” people is astounding. The Polish nobility has huge numbers with Rus ancestors.The others remained Greek Rite Catholics and considered themselves over time as “Ukrainians”.While the mass of people remained Orthodox. And until the spoken dialect overcame Religion in the 19th Century, were all considered “Russians” (which they are in the ethnic sense).
Yes, I have been telling some close friends and relatives over the past few years that the situation in the Middle East is basically “new Jews” killing “original Jews”. New Jews – European Jews, who were really descendents of Jewish converts. Original Jews – now called Palestinians – they have long converted to Moslems over the past 1400 years!
Of course, most people I said this to think I am kind of crazy…
You are basically right there. Though it is very complicated.There were Jewish immigrant communities throughout the Roman Empire.In those days ,Jews were into seeking converts.And through those converts and intermarriages with “gentile” neighbors,the Jewish communities in Europe grew larger.That changed with the Empire adopting Christianity as the State Religion.Over the years the state outlawed other religions,except for Judaism.It was argued by the Church,that the Bible said Jews needed to convert freely to Christianity,so they weren’t totally forbidden (that policy changed back and forth for centuries.But the Churches “officially” said that).But while not “forbidding Judaism” they did put restrictions on the Jews.Those differed from country to country.And from century to century.But some of them forbid any conversions to Judaism.Forbid intermarriage with Christians.Encouraged Jews to become Christians (and it was death to go back on that).Restricted where they could live,and jobs they could do.The early Church forbid Christians to be “money lenders” (bankers) as a career.So that was one of the jobs Jews dominated (still do) for centuries.And with only a few new converts being able to sneak in.And most legal marriage or sexual relations being halted between Jews and “gentiles”.That started to change most peoples thinking of Jews.From thinking of them as a religious group.And instead thinking of them as a separate ethnic group (a nation).So while a base of the DNA of European Jews is from the ME.There was a great amount of European DNA over the centuries into that group.
In the Muslim world things were different.While early Muslims accepted converts.They weren’t seeking them.Some argued that Islam should be restricted to the tribal peoples in Arabia.But religious leaders overruled that saying the new faith should be open to all.The Muslims didn’t forbid Christianity or Judaism in the lands they conquered.And in fact at first Jews and many Christian sects were pleased to trade the domination of the State Church for Muslim rule.Non-Muslims were required to pay a special tax.But except for that and a few other provisions (bells on church’s weren’t allowed) you were allowed to freely practice your faith.And since only Muslims were made to become soldiers at that stage,many felt a small tax was less a burden than they had been under before.In the ancient World,and through the middle ages in the ME and in Europe as well.Your religion was who you were.People were aware of different ethnic groups, of course.But as most Europeans and Middle East peoples “looked” similar to each other. It was easy if your religion was the same, to move from one ethnic group to another.In another post I mentioned how with Europeans of that time.In most countries you were divided into one ethnic group or another more by religion than ethnicity.In the ME that same concept applied,and lasted much longer than in Europe.Mostly once you became Muslim,you adopted Arabic as your language.And after a few centuries of intermarriage your family was considered “Arab”.Most of the people in Syria,Iraq,Palestine,etc,have non-Arab backgrounds.They were also Semitic peoples,so it wasn’t a hard switch to make.Their languages were similar to Arabic to start with.Say something like the difference of Polish and Russian,different languages but both with Slavic roots.As the centuries moved along,more and more people in those countries adopted Arabic.Intermarried with any Arab immigrants, and now those countries are considered “Arab” states. The Jews of Palestine were mostly converted to Christianity during the centuries of Christian rule.And then their descendants mostly converted to Islam under Muslim rule.To form the base of the Palestinian people of today. So you have the ridiculous situation today of European Jews with little “Hebrew” blood in their veins.Oppressing and killing Palestinians,vastly descended from those very “Hebrews” of the Bible.With the European Jews screaming “this is our land,we are returning to Israel”.To which a Palestinian once said,if they are the descendants of the Hebrews, ” explain how they left brown skinned and now return white skinned”.
“Of course, most people I said this to think I am kind of crazy…’ — far from it, you are very close to the reality of it all.
These latter results of Ashke_nazi Jewish converts from those parts “Ukraine” are simply setting up another apartheid state based on stories which, convoluted as they are, do not resonate with the authentic cultural-racial tribal outpourings of the Semitic peoples of the ME area — be it in any of the original or two updated variants. No wonder they have a fundamental existential identity crisis.
And little wonder why their uncivilized actions towards the original indigenous inhabitants of the ME region are so at-odds with the essential message and spirit of the religious systems merging in that region (for those peoples).
and the reason that Israel has failed, the real origin of the failure is the people in England that created the idea of a new Israel…the lords of the Round Table Masonic group…the Milner group, who also are behind the first world war….they didn’t want or care that the new Israel was a broken vessel right from the start of it.
There was an attempt 50 years earlier with a great Englishman named Lawrence Oliphant…certainly nothing to do with Lawrence of Arabia….and he was working in the foreign service for England for many years, and he moved to Israel/Palestine and lived out his last days there, trying to make friends with the Palestinians and he encouraged many Jews to move back there…but not to ‘take it over’. He was not part of the dark side of England.
But the Lords of England…especially Alfred Lord Milner and his cohorts like Earl Grey and David Lloyd George and etc…. devised this strategy of taking the land away from the inhabitants – the Palestinians – because the greedy and evil lords didn’t think the Moslems would co-operate in the scheme of ‘gateway to the east’ which is the real reason that Israel was given to the Jews in such a colonial way…it started in England with a group of secret society oligarchs.
@Ann What you said is true from the sources I have looked into . http://www.tragedyandhope.com/ That round table group has a MO in North America (turtle island} that matches what we see in Palestine today and what was seen in Africa . Although Cecil Rhodes has played a big roll in it’s later development I think it’s roots go way back .Earnest L Martins book The People that History Forgot http://www.askelm.com/people/index.asp has some very important dot’s that bring the story forward . The book allows you to bridge between the mystery religions , mystery governments as well as mystery commerce and if you have a small understanding of Esotericism or at least the symbols then you can find them today
Interesting discussion. Certainly helped to frame several subtle aspects of the current situation of concern.
Hearing the various arguments between these two perspectives, and the Israeli Zionist entity they both criticize, during Islamic holy month of Ramadan adds another dimension for reflection.
I found it valuable and added insight into some issues I had largely given up on trying to understand. Perhaps these issues can be generalized into some extent to other domains — e.g., it would be interesting to hear what learned Iranian Jews think of this existential issue — given they have been safely imbedded in a Persian Empire for millennia.
However, in the end, two fundamental core issues remain regarding the Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro’s apparent position:
a) Why does he (and those of his persuasion) not accept the Jewish Messiah as indeed the one who Christians claim and who the Moslems call the Prophet Isa?
b) Why do they not accept the Islamic Prophet Muhammad indeed fulfills all the general requirements of a Biblical Prophet?
Until this is explained with the same degree of insight then it seems highly likely they’ll never leave their closed circle of identity anxiety and/or denial.
I’m afraid, in spite of all his reasonable and convincing arguments on many points, claiming some common metaphysical ‘soul’ on Mt Sinai relationship by virtue of a maternal lineage does not carry much weight for those seeking a little more pragmatic and scientific line of reasoning.
Perhaps a heavy weighting on the cultural ‘nurture’ aspects of child development might also partly explain how this maternal link is an advantage for entry into the traditional Jewish ‘system’ of development — i.e., as a Jew, as he defines it. However, perhaps this is likely to be dismissed as just another “chicken soup” factor along with, as others might claim, items like male child genital mutilation at around 8 days old.
In the end, the discussions on the history of Jewish identity (and alleged theft), interesting as they are, are less relevant to studying contemporary foresight trends and factors than hearing that (a) tensions are rising in NY and (b) the core ‘value’ of the Israeli Apartheid Project, in what was the British Mandate of Palestine (and before that an area within the Ottoman Empire), are unraveling and dissolving within the younger generations. Perhaps there is cause for some hope after all?
The latter can only be good news for those wishing for peace and justice in the Middle East.
Unfortunately, this unraveling is also probably contributing to a ‘Plan B’ retreat option into the Ukraine region for the class of self-diagnosing ‘special’ people who, according to Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro, mistake a position of theological ‘exceptionalism’ (by virtue of work and commitment to ethical principles) for a so called Divinely given justification for a tribal ‘master race’ status.
Indeed, nationalism is creeping into many quarters through the cracks in the bankrupt Western economic system of debt and austerity — and again this ‘Wall St Inc’ world seems yet another modern system heavily influenced by the same type of ‘Jewish’ elements which the speakers here imply drove Communism in Russia etc.
Certainly it is clear, if we follow the discussion’s theme, that indeed ‘nationalism’ is definitely one domain where natural Jewish talents, industry and zeal are NOT needed! Perhaps here, in this Biblical prohibition against a physical nation for the Jews while in exile, is some wisdom from Above after all!
My understanding is that Rabbinical Judaeism does not accept Jesus is the Messiah. The first Christians included many Jews, who would have been branded heretics by the Orthodox Jewry.
They would be similar to Muslims who regard him as a prophet, though perhaps not with the same veneration (also extended to his mother Mariam/Mary.)
When Atzmon talks about Jewish genocidal tendencies beginning with secular Jews, that’s messed up. It began long before that, like millennia. It was in fact a standard method of the early Jews. Read how they describe (brag) how they wiped out towns they conquered in their early history. Not really much different than Israeli/zionists in modern times. Those secular Jews who continued these ideologies did so not because they were secular, but because they lacked the soul to fully look behind the rubbish they were indoctrinated from birth about their own “specialness” and the disposalbility of those who were not “special people”. In fact, their secularism is a fraud.
“Can we please stop pretending like Jews and Jewish related issues are The Most Important Thing In The Universe (TMITITU) and deal with the really important issues?”
Judging by the popularity of the thread we are all Jews here even if we don’t realise it.
OT.
Unz.com has posted a great piece from Israel Shamir: Kiev: Chestnuts Blossom Again. Shamir recently visited Kiev and gave his impressions. SPOILER: He’s rather pessimistic about the idea that the hardships imposed on Ukrainians by the war and the IMF are going to lead to any serious regime-change activity against Porky. At least in public, most of the Ukrainians he dealt with seemed content to blame Russia for all their problems.
Thanks for posting the Shamir’s article.
He is usually right about things. I don’t like what he is saying in this piece, It seems Putin’s time is up. Russia needs a much more truculent leader.
Wend, I don’t agree. But it seems like some people that are like locals on this blog suddenly have become what Saker calls, ‘Hurray Patriots’. I think we need to be patient…do we really want to see ‘more action’ ?
In answer,yes,I do. I want to see the defeat of the junta and end to the killing of civilians in Donbass. The day to day slaughter of innocents is horrible.So yes,I guess I’m one of the “Hurray Patriots” for that. I don’t see any other solution that will achieve that end. And putting off what we will have to do anyway,but at the cost of more lives is not something I favor.
Dear Uncle Bob..if you feel that way..then go there. Why is Putin supposed to do the job…be like Texas and go there..then you see how futile this fighting is. Until the EU is willing to admit the truth people will die. But to throw Russia at them is not your’s to decide.
Putin and Russia don’t have a choice, they are involved.It is their people there,blood of their blood.It is their history there.It is their security involved.Some like to think they could just turn their backs and do nothing.But that isn’t possible.If Russia expects to exist as a state it must act.And if Putin expects to retain power in Russia for long,he must act.This isn’t like events happening in Uganda for Russia.It is like events happening in Canada would be for the US.For over a thousand years Russians have been “involved” in that land.Because the calendar has a new date of 2015 doesn’t mean anything.
but many Ukrainians don’t like Russia anymore. Sorry, I don’t know the answer but more violence is not the way forward…its like just using monsanto for ‘this one’…lots of people feel that way about using roundup….as though this is ‘different’, or small change or something. Heaping wrong upon wrong doesn’t make it right..and I know that sounds like idealistic philosopher stuff..but the world is getting more and more violent…when will it stop, unless we stop…? And you can’t expect the ‘bad guys’ to stop first.
But the violence has to end, and people will suffer until it does. Otherwise when ‘does’ the violence stop ?
I don’t know when the violence will stop.But I do know that refusing to fight for right, won’t make the “bad guys” see the light and stop as well. Studying the history of the World from ancient days until today shows me that very clearly.Gandhi was probably a wonderful person.But he alone with his “non-violence” didn’t free India.Had the British not been so damaged from WW2 and the rise of socialism in Asia, they would never have pulled out.And when they did, they left India mutilated first.Which led directly to Gandhi’s murder.Might,may not make right.But weakness,certainly invites your destruction in this World we live it.
yes, that is the paradox…Christ let himself be killed….its a tough example to set…but its the only way. Of course its easy for someone like me to say that from my armchair in a safe land…somewhat anyways….but that is the example of a world religion’s founder. And the Russian people are the ‘people of Christ’ according to Rudolf Steiner.
If the World was made up of Jesus Christs.We would have no problems (probably),but it isn’t. Most leaders throughout history seem to be more along the lines of a little less violent Hitlers,and Stalins,than Christ’s or Gandhi’s.There is a new popular saying that I think we need to understand “what is,is”.The World isn’t as we’d like.And when deciding what to do,we (countries) have to deal with the World we have.Not the one we’d like to have.
OT
A number of reports in interfax of the Belgium asset seizures
http://www.interfax.com/news.asp
19:01
Justice Minister sees account freezes of Russian diplomatic missions in Belgium as “gross violation of international law”
19:00
Russia, Myanmar sign memorandum on peaceful use of nuclear energy
19:00
Russia, Myanmar sign memorandum on peaceful use of nuclear energy
18:57
Rosneft, GE to develop equipment to produce LNG
18:55
Russia not informed of Belgium’s assets seizure plans in advance – Justice Ministry
18:52
Kudrin: Russia is in middle of crisis
18:52
Russia plans to appeal against assets seizure in Belgium – Konovalov
18:49
MinFin still forecasting $80 bln capital outflow in 2015
18:47
Former Intergeo chief Potapov appointed to head Pharmstandard
18:46
Legal arguments for seizure of Russian property in Belgium are not fully clear – Konovalov (Part 2)
18:43
Legal arguments for seizure of Russian property in Belgium are not fully clear – Konovalov
18:39
Russia regards seizure of Russian accounts in Belgium as unfriendly act, major breach of intl law – Russian Foreign Ministry
18:39
“Russia regards seizure of Russian accounts
in Belgium as unfriendly act, major breach
of intl law – Russian Foreign Ministry”
Yes it is.
And potentially sets a neat precedent for re-claiming control of the RCB. After all, if banks in other jurisdictions are seizing sovereign assets, what continuing basis is there for the primacy of international law over activities of the RCB?
re: Gilad Atzmon and Rav. Yaacov Shapiro: Yes, more key conversations could begin better with: “We made a terrible mistake…” How is the human race to survive if this does not happen more often and in other arenas ofl assessment as well? Humility is a virtue rarely seen or appreciated or even really understood these days.
This level of questioning and discourse encouraged here is why I appreciate this blog.
Thank you Saker for posting this very good discussion .For me, it’s gives articulation to the confusion which is called Zionism while at the same time explaining those who say they are Jews and who are not .Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro’s saying that how we get trapped into the discussion was also interesting and falls along the line of asking someone if they still abuse their wife and wanting a yes or no answer to the question . … very interesting indee
Great thank you for posting this.
One question though. Rabbi was referring,correct me if i am wrong,to world in plural. Jews in the worlds,for example. Why not singular? Thus anyone know why is that?
I don’t really understand your question Dragan.
Well, very interesting for me not knowing almost nothing about Jews.
I have seen only the first part.
Thanks for publish it.
Hard to know what to say. Haven’t finished watching it all But watching the first bloke explaining his thoughts I thought the bloke with the traditional hat and beard would be a bit upset.
When he mentioned the mossad guy in the audience I cracked up.
But my thought is.. these two can sit and discus what they think with respect for each other.
I have trouble believing that there is an unseen deity. God. At the same time I respect other peoples beliefs.
Near the start of the the old testament in the bible and I am guessing this part is the same for Jews, Christians and Moslems, it says that god made man in his own image.
But I look at the psychopaths that often come to power in the name of a religion or ideology?
And then there’s the other religions not related to the Jewish religion and the Prophets?
Anglo/Zionism cannot be wiped out same as Nazies and psychopaths using Islam as an excuse for extremism cannot be wiped out, but the US dollar and the US military can be destroyed which is the backbone of the psychopaths that are causing most of the world problems today.
“I have trouble believing that there is an unseen deity. God.”
Believing in God is one thing. But the Jews (and the Christians and the Muslim) don’t believe in God, they believe in God as presented by their scriptures, that is, they believe in… books!
That’s a good one!
@Zweistein
well said!
That which is Infinite cannot be limited to the mundane concepts of finite beings.
Thanks Saker for this educational video, part 1 and 2….Gilhad has such a nice voice….
Gilhad uses ‘Jewishness’ but I think the word ‘Fundamentalist’ might also be used to describe, in any of the big religions of the world, something that is not healthy, not religious, not ‘good’.
well, personally, I don’t even think Israel is a land. It was originally a person…although the last two letters, ‘el’ mean archangel…or perhaps ‘god’…Rapha-el, Micha-el, Gabri-el, and so forth…higher beings…I think the angel that fought with Jacob and then named him Isra-el … perhaps that was the angel’s name.
Anyway, Israel is the people of Jacob. and Judah was one of his sons….and Jews are from Judea….
Perhaps this is one of the reasons that Dugan calls for a “political angelology.” The Greek word from which ‘angel’ is derived means “messager.” It is probably less potentially blasphemous than Carl Schmitt’s Political Theology — just my two Federal Reserve Notes.
@Israel is the people of Jacob…Jews are from Judea
Ah, if more people would show your common sense and understanding, we would have less difficulties in comprehending the palavers about what “Judaism”, “Jewish identity”, “Zionism” really are.
Most of us have a pretty good idea.
See, taking the bible as a law for all time is Fundamentalist. When God told Joshua to kill all the people…well, we’re talking about thousands of years ago…that’s basically the way savages lived back then. The tribe of Abraham was savages. But that was then. They got more civilized as time went by, and eventually you have such a person as Jesus, born of the tribe of Judah…a real Jew…and also John the Baptist…a real Jew….born in Judea.
If Jesus was a real Jew, and John also was a real Jew, why didn’t the Jews accept them ? Why don’t they accept them now ?
the first Christians were Jews.
Yes, indeed. So does that mean that the Jews accept Jesus now ?
@Israel is the people of Jacob…Jews are from Judea
Ah, if more people would show your common sense and understanding, we would have less difficulties in comprehending the palavers about what “Judaism”, “Jewish identity”, “Zionism” really are.
Ann,
I wonder whether the idea that Jesus was something more than a Jew, the Son of God for example, and that it may have a bearing on the case of “Jewishness” vs “Jewish political identity” and rejection of Christianity by those Jews, crossed your mind? That all the charade was not about the Jews in the end although they try desperately to occupy the center stage at all times?
well. I feel embarrassed to have so much to say here, but my feeling with the first video is that the Rabbi has a more logical and understandable argument. Gihad is very enchanting speaker, but I think he’s a secular Jew and so is ‘confused’ about Jewishness Judishness and so forth…he speaks from the confused secular viewpoint of modern Israel..whereas I totally agree with the Rabbi…Judaism, Jewishness is a religion…period.
@Ann. We see a similar situation in Christian thinking also .Some claim to be a Christian because they live in what has been called a Christian society . We here some claim to be Christian because they were baptized as a baby and have the paper work to prove it . We see ministers that take courses at university and then lead denominational Churches .
Like the Torah can create a Jew so too can the Gospel create a Christian .God uses both to get the results He wants .ie Not all Christians are Christians and not all that call themselves Jews are .
I wonder how much the Zionists were influenced by Nietzsche and his inverted Gospel. I also like how the previous article on Fr. Romaniedes’ book focused on ‘roman’ and ‘greek’ and how Rabbi Shapiro discussed ‘jewishness’ and ‘jewiness’. Often, human labels are used to contradistinguish groups and highlight rivalries, but just as often they denote positive content.
The first Zionists were anti-religious.They considered Jews a “nation” in the European ethnic sense.The fact that being a “Jew” was defined by most in those days as only a religious designation wasn’t important for them.
The historical backgrounds of Religions is a fascinating subject.One of the saddest and true facts is that much of the population of today’s Palestine is descended from the “ancient Hebrews” the people existing at the time of Jesus.In mass,over the centuries those people converted,first to Christianity,and later to Islam.While many of the people considered European Jews are descended from European converts to Judaism over the centuries in the ancient days.There are other examples as well.Most people in what we now call Croatia and Serbia (and Bosnia and Montenegro) are descended of the same ethnic groups.They and others among the non-Slav peoples there became,Croats or Serbs,because of their religion.In ancient days,in most cases your religion in diverse areas, became your badge of “nationality”.If you accepted Orthodoxy you became a Serb.If Islam you were called a “Turk” and now a Bosniak.If you became Latin Catholic you became a Croat.In Ireland,among other places it was the same.Many “Irish” are descended from English settlers that stayed Catholic at the Reformation.While many considered “English” were descended of Irish that adopted the Protestant faiths.In Western “Rus” (now Ukraine,Belarus,parts of Poland) if you were Latin Catholic you quickly became “Polish”.The Greek Catholics were a “half-way” house for people there.Some of them over the course of a century went all the way and changed to Latin Rite and became Polish. The numbers of notable people in Polish history descended from “Rus” people is astounding. The Polish nobility has huge numbers with Rus ancestors.The others remained Greek Rite Catholics and considered themselves over time as “Ukrainians”.While the mass of people remained Orthodox. And until the spoken dialect overcame Religion in the 19th Century, were all considered “Russians” (which they are in the ethnic sense).
Yes, I have been telling some close friends and relatives over the past few years that the situation in the Middle East is basically “new Jews” killing “original Jews”. New Jews – European Jews, who were really descendents of Jewish converts. Original Jews – now called Palestinians – they have long converted to Moslems over the past 1400 years!
Of course, most people I said this to think I am kind of crazy…
You are basically right there. Though it is very complicated.There were Jewish immigrant communities throughout the Roman Empire.In those days ,Jews were into seeking converts.And through those converts and intermarriages with “gentile” neighbors,the Jewish communities in Europe grew larger.That changed with the Empire adopting Christianity as the State Religion.Over the years the state outlawed other religions,except for Judaism.It was argued by the Church,that the Bible said Jews needed to convert freely to Christianity,so they weren’t totally forbidden (that policy changed back and forth for centuries.But the Churches “officially” said that).But while not “forbidding Judaism” they did put restrictions on the Jews.Those differed from country to country.And from century to century.But some of them forbid any conversions to Judaism.Forbid intermarriage with Christians.Encouraged Jews to become Christians (and it was death to go back on that).Restricted where they could live,and jobs they could do.The early Church forbid Christians to be “money lenders” (bankers) as a career.So that was one of the jobs Jews dominated (still do) for centuries.And with only a few new converts being able to sneak in.And most legal marriage or sexual relations being halted between Jews and “gentiles”.That started to change most peoples thinking of Jews.From thinking of them as a religious group.And instead thinking of them as a separate ethnic group (a nation).So while a base of the DNA of European Jews is from the ME.There was a great amount of European DNA over the centuries into that group.
In the Muslim world things were different.While early Muslims accepted converts.They weren’t seeking them.Some argued that Islam should be restricted to the tribal peoples in Arabia.But religious leaders overruled that saying the new faith should be open to all.The Muslims didn’t forbid Christianity or Judaism in the lands they conquered.And in fact at first Jews and many Christian sects were pleased to trade the domination of the State Church for Muslim rule.Non-Muslims were required to pay a special tax.But except for that and a few other provisions (bells on church’s weren’t allowed) you were allowed to freely practice your faith.And since only Muslims were made to become soldiers at that stage,many felt a small tax was less a burden than they had been under before.In the ancient World,and through the middle ages in the ME and in Europe as well.Your religion was who you were.People were aware of different ethnic groups, of course.But as most Europeans and Middle East peoples “looked” similar to each other. It was easy if your religion was the same, to move from one ethnic group to another.In another post I mentioned how with Europeans of that time.In most countries you were divided into one ethnic group or another more by religion than ethnicity.In the ME that same concept applied,and lasted much longer than in Europe.Mostly once you became Muslim,you adopted Arabic as your language.And after a few centuries of intermarriage your family was considered “Arab”.Most of the people in Syria,Iraq,Palestine,etc,have non-Arab backgrounds.They were also Semitic peoples,so it wasn’t a hard switch to make.Their languages were similar to Arabic to start with.Say something like the difference of Polish and Russian,different languages but both with Slavic roots.As the centuries moved along,more and more people in those countries adopted Arabic.Intermarried with any Arab immigrants, and now those countries are considered “Arab” states. The Jews of Palestine were mostly converted to Christianity during the centuries of Christian rule.And then their descendants mostly converted to Islam under Muslim rule.To form the base of the Palestinian people of today. So you have the ridiculous situation today of European Jews with little “Hebrew” blood in their veins.Oppressing and killing Palestinians,vastly descended from those very “Hebrews” of the Bible.With the European Jews screaming “this is our land,we are returning to Israel”.To which a Palestinian once said,if they are the descendants of the Hebrews, ” explain how they left brown skinned and now return white skinned”.
@While early Muslims accepted converts.They weren’t seeking them
So why did they led so many jihads to spread Islam? And would you be so sure that the first Muslims did not wanted to make Muslims of all?
@Forbid intermarriage with Christians
The Jews were forbidding marriages with Christians (actually with any “goy”)
“Of course, most people I said this to think I am kind of crazy…’ — far from it, you are very close to the reality of it all.
These latter results of Ashke_nazi Jewish converts from those parts “Ukraine” are simply setting up another apartheid state based on stories which, convoluted as they are, do not resonate with the authentic cultural-racial tribal outpourings of the Semitic peoples of the ME area — be it in any of the original or two updated variants. No wonder they have a fundamental existential identity crisis.
And little wonder why their uncivilized actions towards the original indigenous inhabitants of the ME region are so at-odds with the essential message and spirit of the religious systems merging in that region (for those peoples).
Yes, I would say that Zionists are nationalists and Jews are ‘a folk’… ‘a people’…not so much the land they live on…that’s nationalism…..
and the reason that Israel has failed, the real origin of the failure is the people in England that created the idea of a new Israel…the lords of the Round Table Masonic group…the Milner group, who also are behind the first world war….they didn’t want or care that the new Israel was a broken vessel right from the start of it.
There was an attempt 50 years earlier with a great Englishman named Lawrence Oliphant…certainly nothing to do with Lawrence of Arabia….and he was working in the foreign service for England for many years, and he moved to Israel/Palestine and lived out his last days there, trying to make friends with the Palestinians and he encouraged many Jews to move back there…but not to ‘take it over’. He was not part of the dark side of England.
But the Lords of England…especially Alfred Lord Milner and his cohorts like Earl Grey and David Lloyd George and etc…. devised this strategy of taking the land away from the inhabitants – the Palestinians – because the greedy and evil lords didn’t think the Moslems would co-operate in the scheme of ‘gateway to the east’ which is the real reason that Israel was given to the Jews in such a colonial way…it started in England with a group of secret society oligarchs.
@Ann What you said is true from the sources I have looked into . http://www.tragedyandhope.com/ That round table group has a MO in North America (turtle island} that matches what we see in Palestine today and what was seen in Africa . Although Cecil Rhodes has played a big roll in it’s later development I think it’s roots go way back .Earnest L Martins book The People that History Forgot http://www.askelm.com/people/index.asp has some very important dot’s that bring the story forward . The book allows you to bridge between the mystery religions , mystery governments as well as mystery commerce and if you have a small understanding of Esotericism or at least the symbols then you can find them today
Interesting discussion. Certainly helped to frame several subtle aspects of the current situation of concern.
Hearing the various arguments between these two perspectives, and the Israeli Zionist entity they both criticize, during Islamic holy month of Ramadan adds another dimension for reflection.
I found it valuable and added insight into some issues I had largely given up on trying to understand. Perhaps these issues can be generalized into some extent to other domains — e.g., it would be interesting to hear what learned Iranian Jews think of this existential issue — given they have been safely imbedded in a Persian Empire for millennia.
However, in the end, two fundamental core issues remain regarding the Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro’s apparent position:
a) Why does he (and those of his persuasion) not accept the Jewish Messiah as indeed the one who Christians claim and who the Moslems call the Prophet Isa?
b) Why do they not accept the Islamic Prophet Muhammad indeed fulfills all the general requirements of a Biblical Prophet?
Until this is explained with the same degree of insight then it seems highly likely they’ll never leave their closed circle of identity anxiety and/or denial.
I’m afraid, in spite of all his reasonable and convincing arguments on many points, claiming some common metaphysical ‘soul’ on Mt Sinai relationship by virtue of a maternal lineage does not carry much weight for those seeking a little more pragmatic and scientific line of reasoning.
Perhaps a heavy weighting on the cultural ‘nurture’ aspects of child development might also partly explain how this maternal link is an advantage for entry into the traditional Jewish ‘system’ of development — i.e., as a Jew, as he defines it. However, perhaps this is likely to be dismissed as just another “chicken soup” factor along with, as others might claim, items like male child genital mutilation at around 8 days old.
In the end, the discussions on the history of Jewish identity (and alleged theft), interesting as they are, are less relevant to studying contemporary foresight trends and factors than hearing that (a) tensions are rising in NY and (b) the core ‘value’ of the Israeli Apartheid Project, in what was the British Mandate of Palestine (and before that an area within the Ottoman Empire), are unraveling and dissolving within the younger generations. Perhaps there is cause for some hope after all?
The latter can only be good news for those wishing for peace and justice in the Middle East.
Unfortunately, this unraveling is also probably contributing to a ‘Plan B’ retreat option into the Ukraine region for the class of self-diagnosing ‘special’ people who, according to Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro, mistake a position of theological ‘exceptionalism’ (by virtue of work and commitment to ethical principles) for a so called Divinely given justification for a tribal ‘master race’ status.
Indeed, nationalism is creeping into many quarters through the cracks in the bankrupt Western economic system of debt and austerity — and again this ‘Wall St Inc’ world seems yet another modern system heavily influenced by the same type of ‘Jewish’ elements which the speakers here imply drove Communism in Russia etc.
Certainly it is clear, if we follow the discussion’s theme, that indeed ‘nationalism’ is definitely one domain where natural Jewish talents, industry and zeal are NOT needed! Perhaps here, in this Biblical prohibition against a physical nation for the Jews while in exile, is some wisdom from Above after all!
Flor:
My understanding is that Rabbinical Judaeism does not accept Jesus is the Messiah. The first Christians included many Jews, who would have been branded heretics by the Orthodox Jewry.
They would be similar to Muslims who regard him as a prophet, though perhaps not with the same veneration (also extended to his mother Mariam/Mary.)
When Atzmon talks about Jewish genocidal tendencies beginning with secular Jews, that’s messed up. It began long before that, like millennia. It was in fact a standard method of the early Jews. Read how they describe (brag) how they wiped out towns they conquered in their early history. Not really much different than Israeli/zionists in modern times. Those secular Jews who continued these ideologies did so not because they were secular, but because they lacked the soul to fully look behind the rubbish they were indoctrinated from birth about their own “specialness” and the disposalbility of those who were not “special people”. In fact, their secularism is a fraud.
“Can we please stop pretending like Jews and Jewish related issues are The Most Important Thing In The Universe (TMITITU) and deal with the really important issues?”
Judging by the popularity of the thread we are all Jews here even if we don’t realise it.