It is natural to try to personify the current stance of Russia by saying that “Putin did this” or “Putin did that” but the danger of this Putin-centric view is that if overlooks a far more complex reality. In particular,
1) This approach implies that Putin is all-powerful and does not have to take other people or powers into account.
2) It overlooks the role of Russian public opinion.
Contrary to the western MSM propaganda, Russia is not a dictatorship or even some special sort of authoritarian regime. I would even argue that Russia is far more democratic than most western regimes, especially if real pluralism and diversity is the criterion by which “democracy” is measured (there can be no possible denial that Russia is infinitely more democratic than the USA which is neither a democracy nor a republic, but a dictatorship run by and for the 1% plutocracy which keeps the 99% in a conditional similar to modern version of feudal serfdom). True – Putin has succeeded in concentrating most of state power in his hands, but he is far from having the control of most economic power in Russia, nor is the bureaucracy he rules over monolithic: there are powerful clans and lobbies inside it fighting for power, including the pro-Western “Atlantic Integrationists”. One of such powerful lobbies is the Russian military.
Recently, the ex-Soviet Minister of Defense, Dimitri Iazov, the only Soviet Marshal still alive, spoke before a meeting of the Association of the All-Army Reserve Officers and declared that:
“Some hotheads are in favor of sending our armed forces into the territory of South-Eastern Ukraine, where there is a war taking place. We cannot allow this. We cannot send out troops into the territory of People’s Republics of Donbass and Lugansk, which are unrecognized republics and which are part of another country – Ukraine. Such reckless actions could lead to a third world war.“
Dmitri Iazov |
Now Iazov is hardly a softie or a pot-smoking peacenik. In fact, Iazov was not only the last Minister of Defense and Marshal of the USSR up until 1991, he also a member of the GKChP or State Committee on the State of Emergency which tried to overthrow Gorbachev in the 1991 coup. We are talking about a man who fought during WWII and who later rose through the ranks to become a Candidate Member of the Soviet Politburo. In other words, a pure product of the Soviet era, a sincere and dedicated Communist, and a man who remembers the wars in Afghanistan and Nagorno-Karabach. Just look at this guy’s mug – he is a typical Soviet tough guy.
And yet, this putative “hardliner”, is clearly categorically opposed to any deployment of Russian troops in Novorussia. Not only that, but his reason for doing so is that he clearly considers that Novorussia is still legally part of the Ukraine and that such legal categories really matter. I would say that this is interesting, to say the least.
But even more interesting is the reaction of the readers of the website Vzgliad which is most definitely 100% anti-Ukrainian and anti-Nazi. I doubt that very many Russian “liberals” are reading Vzgliad. And yet, when the readers were polled about their reaction to Iazov’s statement, a full 59% (at the time of writing this supported it:
Question: Marshal Yazov is against the deployment of Russian forces in the Ukraine. How do you react to his words?
Support: 59.0%
Do not support: 41.9%
Total number of votes: 30371 people
Amazing no? Almost 2/3rds of the readers of Vzgliad oppose an intervention.
And, believe me, it is not the pathetic Ukie army which matters here. Everybody in Russia knows that the full power of the “Glorious And Invincible Ukrainian Army – Glory to the Ukraine, to the Heroes Glory!!” is barely enough to fire massive artillery salvos at the poor and sick civilians of Slaviansk and Kramatorsk who did not have the means to leave. The Ukie army is despised and loathed for what it does, but not feared. Nobody, and I really nobody, has ever made the case that the Ukies could even offer a modicum of resistance against the Russian military. And now that the Ukies have massed their entire military inside the “Novorussian sack” it can easily be enveloped and destroyed. No, the problem is not one of “victory versus defeat”, but one of “does Russia want such a victory?”
What people in the West fail to fully understand, by no fault of theirs, considering the kind of ‘informaton’ they are fed by the corporate media, is that the Russian people do not want Russia to become yet another empire or a Soviet Union v2 (these theories are just Hillary and Zbig projecting their own, ugly, motivations on Russia). Most Russians want Russia to be a prosperous and powerful country, yes, but a regular country, not a global power with USA-like “world police” functions.
I am not saying that Iazov is right (or wrong, for that matter), all I am saying that the views in Russia about the merits (or lack thereof) on a direct and open intervention in Novorussia are far more complex and nuanced that the views of those who post simple black and white comments about why Russia “has to” intervene “now”. To them I am saying that even Russian “hardliners” (not that this terms really has any meaning) take a much more nuanced views than some armchair strategists in the West.
The Saker
Thank you for this very informative post. There really is absolutely nothing in the corporate media in the West that provides any information at all about Ukraine, except pathetically obvious propaganda pieces.
somewhat mystified by Saker’s insistence in defending Putin (and downplaying the real news from Ukraine, which can be found at niqnaq and crazy ivan’s place), may I point out that invasion is far from Putin’s only option–if he wanted to stop the slaughter he could simply cut off gas transit shipment through Ukraine. ah but that would cost money…
Regarding Dmitri Iazov’s statement on the People’s Republics of Donbass and Lugansk. If their referendums on independence are not valid, then why was Crimea’s independence referendum valid? Wasn’t the latter internationally recognized as part of Ukraine. Does he consider Crimea’s accession to Russia reckless?
How about a Libya style No fly zone? where you can have your rear firmly entrenched at rear?
Also can any of RF’s alliance country depend on RF for help in the time of need when RF can not even recognize, and help its own people at its door stop?
Hello friends,
I just read some strange message: http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-un-human-rights/25445531.html
Summary:
Geneva, july 4
UN human rights chief Navi Pillay says renewed fighting in eastern Ukraine is putting civilians at increasing risk.
[ ….]
She said she was particularly disturbed by a message on the website of one leader of the self-proclaimed ‘Donetsk People’s Republic’, which states that underage children and women are legitimate targets and that the goal is to ‘immerse them in horror’.
What is this?
Excellent pov, Saler.
I would like to see a question put to the Russian demos, thusly:
NATO will nullify our nuclear deterrent, the West will de-stabilize our Federation, and a perpetual border war will be on our western flank if we don’t remove the threat in Kiev and defend Novorossiya. Should be take military action if nothing else works?
Beyond that, Russia has to examine this: is NATO already in Ukraine and can’t be dealt with? Have we in Moscow been checkmated? Is any defense of Russia and Russian peoples the start of WWIII?
I reject those notions. The US has massive reasons to bomb Iran into pre-Christ times. It has never even come close. The worst it came up with was backing Saddam in a proxy war against Iran.
The West rattles its nukes, but shits its pants when anyone stands up to them.
The West ideology is repression of the people it rules. They are thieves, not warriors.
There is no threat to Europe or America if Kiev disappears. There is actually the relieving of a threat to peace, order and economic balance.
It will be like East Germany being reunited. West Ukraine dissolves into Poland and whoever the hell else wants them, and Novorrossiya develops. The region remains neutral. People are separated by their own choice (I go, I stay).
The logic of Kissinger remains. Ukraine is a freak, run by freaks and is a huge dangerous playground for amateurs in the State Department. They have let out of the prisons and insane asylums their shock troops. But this is not a mortal threat to the West if Ukraine and the scum fronting for it disappear.
Happy Fourth of July. It once meant Liberty. Today, it is beyond description to think of my country’s government as anything other than a sick, twisted Tyranny. Jefferson warned us. Franklin, too. Washington did and so, too, Eisenhower. Plain language warnings. You can never trust any government.
@Larchmonter 19:42
You sir are right on the mark again. Kudos to you for cutting through the bullshit. You are right to point out that the factions that are driving for the chaos we’re seeing are thieves and not warriors. Thieves are cowards and very much into saving their own skin, fraudsters even more so. People of this ilk are the fastest to run for the hills if their personal safety is at stake.
The idea that a bunch of materialistic thieves, fraudsters and “business” types would ever risk seeing themselves, their families and their creature comforts annihilated by playing nuclear Russian roulette with the Russians or the Chinese is beyond stupid.
Thanks for an excellent post.
Dearest Saker,
It is one of your best write ups. It shows that Putin is a human being with limitations. No matter how good his intentions are.
It is God who is Limitless, and it is in Whom we should put our faith. He is involved in Day to Day Management of His Wide Kingdom.
Through Bibi Mary (as), Prophet and Rasool Jesus (as), Bibi Fatima (as) and Imam Mahdi (as), God’s Will Is Done on a Daily Basis.
God Plan and our evil adversary (satan) plans. Out of the two, God is the Best of the Planner.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
I responded to some negative posts about Strelkov on another post. Taking the opportunity to preempt the negative Putin ones here:)
I just read posted to Zero Hedge news that governor of the National Bank of France Christian Noyer openly talking about diversification away from US Dollar.
“A movement to diversify the currencies used in international trade is inevitable. Trade between Europe and China does not need to use the dollar and may be read and fully paid in euros or renminbi. Walking towards a multipolar world is the natural monetary policy, since there are several major economic and monetary powerful ensembles.” Noyer said.
from http://www.zerohedge.com
The thought of people dying in Donbass breaks my heart, the images and videos are shocking but please remember that if Putin succeeds in its goal of a multi-polar economic/trade world the USA will be facing serious economic turmoil and hyper inflation on the home front and its empire will collapse with a wimper rather than a bang.
Putin/Russia haven’t fired a shot but they are winning this war long term and ultimately potentially saving hundreds of thousands or millions of lives in the process (if WW3 were to commence in earnest).
Regards,
The Stepping Razor
My god, so why or Putin encouraged the separatists?? His little joke doing dying children, women, elderly, ended up with several cities, then to betray this population? Sorry , but I do not know who is worse, the Nazis of Ukraine or Putin
Al Neum has the point.
Those 41% who oppose Iazov are smarter then 59% who support his statement. As simple as that!
If Americans could attack Iraq, kill millions and there was no danger of World War III, I doubt there will be one if Russia LIBERATES south-eastern Ukraine.
Regards from Serbia.
The Wend
About half of the former Ukraine oblasts do not wish to be part of a Nazi Ukraine. Nor did Crimea. Crimea is not a logical stopping point when genocide and represssion are what face many millions of people living in South/East Ukraine. They must be helped one way or another, and allowed to live.
Dmitry Yazov is “an old fool”! Now he’s opposing the intervention, but how come he was not so vocal against the intervention in 1979 and 1980 when he was the commander of the Central Group of Forces in Czechoslovakia? Was Czechoslovakia not an independent country at that time? Was not the risk of starting WWIII existed back then? Or, how about deployment of Russian commando units to Latvia and Lithuania in early 1991? Was the risk of starting WWIII existed?
The old senile fart was the defense minister under Gorbachev’s government. I used puppet who has no professional credentials in Russian’s nation.
The old fart needs to be euthanized, but there is a chance that the proud Russian land would spit out his bones!!!
The old Soviet Marshal – most of whose life was spent in emotional terror of being nuked by the USA – and Russian ‘opinion polls’, are worthy of note … but still off the point.
At times like these, leaders MUST LEAD and then the public follows … these are not decisions for ‘opinion polls’ … because it is highly likely, for example, that Russians are hesitating in opinion, because they are FOLLOWING PUTIN … Some Russians in Russia, like yourself perhaps, are not yet ready to face what seems to be a horrid truth about their formerly beloved leader Vladimir Putin … that Putin somehow has been intimidated / blackmailed / frightened by something, someone, his own Atlanticist EU-playing oligarchs perhaps.
If Putin went in to save the people of Novorossiya, you would, I am sure, see Russian ‘opinion polls’ turn, and rocket to 80-per-cent-plus approval.
Many of us are in mourning for the victims of Novorossiya, and also for the death of our hopes in Putin and Russian leadership. These days in Ukraine may actually be world-historical, marking the end, the final sad end, of enlightened leadership in Europe as a whole. With Putin compromised and weak now, who else will ever again dare to be strong?
Cu chulainn
Have I missed something? Hasn’t Gazprom already stopped deliveries to Ukraine until they prepay? And if you mean stopping deliveries to the other European countries aren’t there contracts that Gazprom has to honour? Isn’t Russia a party to the WTO? So if Gazprom ends its deliveries can’t Russia be taken to the WTO or otherwise sued?
Anonymous re: Libya
Like it or not NATO at least had the fig leaf of a UNSC resolution to impose a no fly zone. Of course it was a completely bogus interpretation but Russia has no such justification. From the standpoint of international law Russia would be an aggressor if they unilaterally imposed a no fly zone over a sovereign country.
Jan
Navi Pillay has lost all credibility with her statements the past few months. She missed the white book the Russians put together on the atrocities in Ukraine but she’s ‘disturbed’ by a statement on a website? Probably as disturbed as Catherine Ashton was by the revelations that the Neo-nazis were responsible for the sniper killings in the maidan. Translation, it means nothing.
Larchmonter445
Jefferson is not a hero.
consortiumnews.com/2014/07/04/thomas-jefferson-americas-founding-sociopath/
Yes I know you never said he was but I’m offering a preemptive strike.
Anonymous re: Bank of France
You would almost think that provocative elements in the US are trying to bring down the dollar….hmmm.
To answer Jan’s question, Navi Pillay is Obama’s and the Globalists bitch.
“You could very well say that Navi Pillay was more than anyone else the person responsible for NATO’s disastrous invasion of Libya. As UN Human Rights Commissioner she chaired that fateful meeting in February, 2011 where Libyan NGO leader Soliman Bouchuiguir was allowed to repeat incredible tales about the “massacres” taking place in Libya – tales he openly admitted after the NATO invasion he had just made up. “There is no evidence,” he exclaimed when asked after the invasion to back up his claims, which were the basis of the chain of events that led to NATO bombing.”
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2013/december/03/the-unwelcome-return-of-navi-pillay.aspx
Also.. radio Free Europe is a US NGO propaganda organ..
-Concerned in Canada
Dear The Saker,
Leaked US think-tank plan for Eastern Ukraine has been leaked:
http://rt.com/news/170572-rand-east-ukraine-plan/
Lovely people at theat think-tank (sarcasm) :( :(.
Rgds,
Veritas
Poroshenko is days away from another coup or a war crimes charge. The wheel is turning. Gotta remember, this is an actual war between the US and Russia, Ukraine is just one front.
It’s not fair that the civilians are dying, but a premature move might be disastrous.
In the end, Russia and Novorussia will win and the USEUNATO will lose.
In fact they have already lost.
We Americans have been dying in our own way for a long time.
Putin is not alone in command – right.
Most powerful Russian lobbies are against intervention – right.
Non-intervention will allow Russia to develop as a “regular”, peaceful Country, accepted and respected – wrongo.
Even if the aliens from Mars were besieging Washington, the US would continue harassing Russia as much as they can.
But if the Russians feel this is Ok for them, we cannot object. Just sorry for the Novorussians.
Rockerduck
Pro-russians surroundes…
Everyone, please do yourself a favor and watch this debate:
Putin Has Been Good For Russia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjDTtgAkCSo
I saw it twice and I just can’t stop thinking about it. Look who is opposing Putin;
Luke Harding, who is responsible for about 90% of the Ukrainian coverage for the Guardian is clearly a LIAR. In his world, anyone who disagrees with him is a KGB Agent. Watch carefully his body language, his parading of “prosecution complex”, his “amusing stories” without a single shred of evidence to support his assertions. Then this Masha Gessen who claims to be Russian….They are absolutely terrified that Russia has a leader with a vision and clarity. They demeanor is sickly and infuriating. Please, watch this debate.
Two other speakers, Christopher Granville and Boris Jordan are absolutely brilliant; very factual, honest, unpretentious and direct.
I already posted this link in some other threat but I think it is worth it
The Stepping Razor, It is delusional to think RF is winning. When you can not even protect your family, you are a failure.
what really worries me is that there is no real unity in the milita side.
– people are asking them to leave from some smaller places, thinking that they would avoid being shot at.
– deserters in their ranks
– donbas internal struggle for power.
– Approx 30% of the evacuated people comming to russia are pro Ukraine.
I do recognize patterns of dying nation in some of the actions, but hell, why deserters and why internal struggle?
Is this real voice of the people, or just voice of some of the people in donbas ?
Please, help me to understand what is really going on.
Al Neum:
Regarding Dmitri Iazov’s statement on the People’s Republics of Donbass and Lugansk. If their referendums on independence are not valid, then why was Crimea’s independence referendum valid? Wasn’t the latter internationally recognized as part of Ukraine. Does he consider Crimea’s accession to Russia reckless?
Crimea (and the City of Sevastopol) was already an autonomous Republic within Ukraine with its own elected parliament and constitution. The Donetsk and Lugansk Oblasts were simply political entities created by the unitary Ukrainian state without any independent existence that could be abolished or reconfigured at any time by the Ukrainian Parliament. The DNR and LC authorities are self-appointed and not representative of the people as a whole via democratic elections.
We can certainly recognize that the people strongly expressed their will in all three referendums, but the political situation of Crimea is entirely different than Donbass. Further, Russia was permitted to have a military force in Crimea larger than the Ukrainian forces, so it had no need to “invade” since it was already there.
I would suggest that personification and not being to blame are much greater threats and opportunities than you outline.
Since humans are held to be social animals,personification is not natural but a learned behaviour predicated on the notions of a can-do attitude and inherent exceptionalism (also known as the “individual”) – twin pillars of the recent manifestation of the”American dream”. The “MSM propaganda” forms a top-up to the pillars.
However since ideologies need not be logically consistent, this is also a key ideological tool to maintain the fictions that others are just like us, and if they are not, they want to be like us, or if not, they are either misinformed and need our guidance and help, or are evil-doers who hate our freedom so they must be destroyed.
The twin notions of exceptionalism and not being to blame, were and are of fundamental importance in the fascist, National Socialists and are Pravy Sektor ideologies, providing psychological succour and bonding activities/opportunities for their members.
Exceptionalism also forms the base of the “victims” blaming themselves for their “victimhood” and limits interaction and discussion with others enhancing ignorance on many levels, including conforming to Einstein’s definition of idiocy – doing the same thing again and again expecting different results.
These considerations may shed some light on the opponents “strategy”, illuminate why there are many armchair strategists amongst the opponents, and some of the opportunities this affords.
These “Indians” should have kept their turkeys for themselves.
Anonymous wrote “The Stepping Razor, It is delusional to think RF is winning. When you can not even protect your family, you are a failure.”
I appreciate your immediate attitude and position however if Russia/Putin were to go on the offensive against Ukraine (it is still a sovereign state) could the lives of Russians all over the world not be in danger, could they be subject to persecution, internment or even be subject to genocides?
I am thinking specifically about the Baltics, but also all over the rest of Europe. There are many Russians now living in the USA itself and Canada, the UK, Australia etc. The West is desperate and wants war, it is run by violent psychopaths who have bankrupted our nations and would rather act violently towards Russia than fix our own problems at home (I am in Canada).
In my opinion if Russia invades Ukraine even if to protect Russian people without more overt support from the rest of the world, multiple fronts could open up against Russians and Russian interests all over the world.
What’s to stop the Americans/HATO from beginning a program to terrorize and kill Russians in the Baltics? Would Russia then be forced to act?
The Stepping Razor
Three things I said on March 1st:
1) Novorossiya will be born
2) The struggle will be extremely difficult
3) Russia will not act outside international law – in essence making Russian military intervention almost impossible.
It was only on Wednesday that I finally called on Putin to “send in the tanks.” About five minutes later I realized that he better send in the tanks covertly. This may in fact be happening. I now estimate that the resistance has 20 to 30 T-64 tanks. I have no idea where they came from. Ukraine@war claims they all came from Russia. Maybe…
The article was published June 18th, so the poll results are almost 3 weeks old. A lot of has happened in the three weeks. Russia finally has the political, maybe even legal justification for a limited “humanitarian” intervention.
***
I do not think that Russian intervention will lead to any kind of superpower war. Politically the Kiev junta is a spent force and no one will rush in to save it. What may happen is that Russia may have to expand its military operations to all of Russian speaking Ukraine – Kiev included. This will only happen if the Ukrainian army cooperates and helps in disarming the National Guard and Nazi Battalions. Where there is real resistance Russia will not go.
There is an assumption that once Russian troops enter, much of Ukraine will fold. The Ukrainian army and pre-Maidan security services will follow any command chain that can guarantee their pensions and personal safety.
***
There are two other reasons for Russia not to intervene.
The real fight is not about Ukraine but about the fate of the world: monopolarity versus multipolarity. The fate of Europe under US occupation: will NATO extend its feudal mandate for another 30 year or will Europe be able to break free?
The US is an island. It can kill people anywhere it pleases, except Canada maybe. Russia has to think long term. It will be neighboring Ukraine for another thousand years. The Battle of the Ice was 772 years ago and Lake Peipus still marks the border between “East” and “West”.
Besides, Russia does not really want to divide Ukraine into Novorossiya and a Russophobic NATO base of Banderastan. It wants to have influence over all of Ukraine.
***
Summa summarum: Skip the crap. Send in the tanks!
I must insist…
…..may I note that in 2008 hell did break loose in less than 24 hours? And it had also to overcome a recalcitrant Medvedev (who was then President)….
I wonder about the difference. The only difference I can see is that today the aggression is much worse in terms of geopolitical danger and number and magnitude of atrocities committed.
So, I am really at loss here to explain the different approach, as everybody else I would add, because nobody has not even tried to address that difference.
Was South Ossetia a recognized Republic? No, it was recognized only after.
Is Ukraine government legal? If it is (it is not, not even after the Bloody Choco “election”), then Crimean referendum was not (it was, because the coup had destroyed the Constitution). Yet Crimea was welcomed the day after…
If this is the only cover for watching thousands of innocents massacred in such horrid way next door, well, it is so thin to be transparent.
Oh, before I forget, there’s no Empire construction in rebuking a mortal menace which is exterminating your people (no matter how criticizable you think they are), just self-defence.
I’m sure even the Russian people can understand the difference.
And there’s no need also for the Russian Army to go in.
The only need is for Russia to get serious….
Oh they will have to intervene eventually, but all the political, etc ducks have to be lined up first.
The reason I say that is because the US/Ukraine will continue to escalate until they do intervene.
First Kiev will go for mass terror, then full scale ethnic cleansing then finally an attack on the Crimea, or even Russia itself. They will just keep ramping it up, with the support of the US State Dept (and CIA, etc) until Russia has to come in.
There is no way the US is backing off from this now, they are going all the way. And yes they will risk nuclear war.
There are many reasons (incoherent is the perfect description for US foreign ‘policy’ these days), but overall this is the last chance for the US to bind the EU to them and stop the creation of a Eurasian trading (etc) union.
Dying empire and all that, this is their last throw. And because they are dying they will become ever more desperate and incautious.
I am pretty sure the Russians realise this, but it is all in the timing. If they go in now, the satraps in the EU Govts and Brussels will put on Iran like sanctions, killing their own economies too of course (but that is a bonus for the US). And I’d imagine in the heat of it all the TAPP would be signed real fast.
There has to be sufficient internal dissent within the EU elites to prevent that. The cracks are already showing but there is a long way to go.
The US owns the European political/military/national security elites. To the point where you could see a coup, by those military/NS elites against their own Govts if they showed too much independence.
So the ‘opposition’ has to tread carefully and clean house at some point.
Again the Russians know this so I speculate that there will be ‘under the table’ technical help with dealing with those factions.
Europeans don’t quite understand this, their NS elites (not necessarily the worker bees of course, but they will follow orders) primary loyalty is to the US and they will throw their own citizens and even (eg) the economic elites under a bus for them. And their militaries are not much different. You had better believe that NATO forces will blow the crap out of their own people.
So there is this huge and powerful ‘5th column’ in their societies that will do what they are told.
@ Anonymous said… Stepping Razor 04 July, 2014 21:37
>> Anonymous wrote “The Stepping Razor, It is delusional to think RF is winning. When you can not even protect your family, you are a failure.”
I back the claim.
> I appreciate your immediate attitude and position however if Russia/Putin were to go on the offensive against Ukraine (it is still a sovereign state) could the lives of Russians all over the world not be in danger, could they be subject to persecution, internment or even be subject to genocides?
This is demagogy in full bloom. The safety of citizens lies in the hands or shoulders of government. You suggest to enter paranoia to international relations. Russia or any other country cannot decide on her interests thinking what other country will do to my nationals!
> In my opinion if Russia invades Ukraine even if to protect Russian people without more overt support from the rest of the world, multiple fronts could open up against Russians and Russian interests all over the world.
Are they not open now?
> What’s to stop the Americans/HATO from beginning a program to terrorize and kill Russians in the Baltics? Would Russia then be forced to act?
But of course! Are you an idiot?
There’s something wrong with education in Canada…
I read very interesting commentaries here. But all are centered on Putin. I have hunch something weir happened to all political elites in Moscow. Statements of Peskov, MPs from DUMA, FM, are all subdued. As if everyone dodged the subject. This or that are said as if to show people they know and keep an eye.
The most bitter moments was when I heard two times from high post of DUMA that there are not yet so big operation, losses etc. It was alarm bell for me.
Why Russia against all valid (!) voices for the help, is still stubbornly forcing “diplomatic” solutions (read: pretend nothing big is going on, not yet)?
Why the flippancy of Russians? Nobody says why Russia took the path of inaction. Strange.
Such attitude is going on decidedly too long. They know that, but still play dumb and deaf.
Very strange.
the “omerta” concerning discussion of the true nature of The Yugoslavian conflict and the economic, social and political consequences of “The Wider European Union” which is so rigidly adhered to and enforced by The European Media applies to R.T and Al Jazeera as-well (whose collusion indicates both the true extent of the omerta’s influence and it’s source). Russia’s behaviour (and that of the westernised arab states), which is similar to that of America with regard to foreign and domestic policy dictates that such should be the case, for just as it is not in N.A.T.O’s interest to encourage stability in the middle east it is not in Russia’s to encourage the formation of an Eastern European economic and political community (whatever did happen to ours?), Russia’s embrace of monetarist values and “laissez-faire” ensures that her foreign policy decisions are taken solely in order to maximise short term profits for a small group of people in just the same way as are those of the member states of N.A.T.O.
The degree of influence our desublimated “politicians” now have on The Market deconstructs “laissez-faire” but adds both energy and mass to the fiscal momentum generated by the acceptance of capitalism’s “Manifest Destiny” (which process can of-course only take place following embrace of the concept).
“The European Adventure” has been hijacked by imperialist brigands whose ridiculous notion of a “Wider Europe” is as distasteful and disturbing as was Hitler’s of “Germania” (“if you want to make a name for yourself in political journalism now-a-days all you have to do is mug a “Kr**t” !” -anon-), and as we have seen it is also in Putin’s interest to attack European expansionism putatively however if he really wants to deter the west from extending it’s influence all he has to do is hang a few more dead Chechens on the wire.
Silence (quite apart from being “golden” -“Maam”-), speaks volumes, in this case about the Mafiosi who are attempting to achieve dominance over the global market place.
Good read. Sound reasoning. Thanks.
Why does the majority of commenter use the same logic about war options? Send tanks, send a troops, smuggle tanks into Ukraine or smuggle troops…..send an army or don’t send an army…But what is the real goal of any of these actions? I would assume it is to remove the hostile regime towards Russia, Europe and Novorosia which is in Kiev. Instead of make all this war games, why don’t they just cut the head of the snake(junta). In the present situation you need 1000-2000 max trained spetsnaz soldiers, transport helicopters, some cover from the air and dozen of combat helicopters to take over of Kiev in 1 shot.
Possible Scenario with no Russian army involvement:
1. Yanukovich (Legit President ) could appear on TV, internet, Radio with the speech from Donetsk,
And could say something like this:
“I’m giving an order to all forces who are loyal to me in Ukraine, to arrest junta leaders who are responsible in genocide and who committed war crimes ( list of all leaders) , I want them dead or alive. I cancel all previous orders and decisions made by junta. I’m imposing a martial law for the whole county. I’m dissolving the government. I’m giving a 48h notice for all staff of embassies who participated in the overthrowing of legit government ( USA, Canada, Brittan, Poland …) to leave the country otherwise they will be forced to do so. I recall ambassadors from that countries.. I will resign after the removal of junta and I will transfer my power to general Whatever… he will restore order and finish the clean up.
2. In the same time as he speaks spetsnaz is moving in , helecopters strike the targets (junta leaders) with the controlled shots on the ground including clean up of Pravii Sector on Midan. After 3 h – 4 h combat helicopters are moving back to the bases in Crimea.
3. In the same time a powerful air strike on all Ukranian positions in Donbas and ATO headquarters.
4. Who did all this? 10 000 loyal to Yanukovich Ukrainian solders from Crimea and other parts of Ukr. (by the way , till now they never applied for Russian citizenship)
Strelkov advances to Kiev and Kharkov. Lugansk advances to Odesa.
So who’s to blame? To whom do you you impose sanctions? Where was the Russian army?
No leaders , NGO is in panic and have to leave Ukraine as they don’t know what happened. We created controllable chaos )))))))))
All this talk of ‘going in’ in the SE — the snake’s head is in Kiev and probably in 4-5 buildings at that. And how far from Kiev to Moscow? The Ukraine military would stop and 180 deg about face if a handful of heads rolled in the capital. If it comes to ‘action’ time expect strategic key-hole surgery rather than a mass msm-feeding-frenzy charge of the light brigade.
Wow, the article and many of the comments are completely delusional!
Why Russia has its army?! For military parades?!
It is very expensive, yet completely useless! With policies like these, Russia could get by with a hired Swiss guard. Seriously!
The notion that a no-fly zone over Ukraine or Russian peacekeepers in Ukrainian territory could spark a world war is utter nonsense!
Neither the bombing of Yugoslavia sparked one, even though it was carried out in breach of international law, nor the illegal arms shipments by the U.S. in arrogant defiance of the U.N.S.C Resolution 713 sparked one… and countless of other cases.
The fig leaf over Libya was torn into pieces no sooner that it had been issued, literally. (Do you remember those U.S. aircraft carriers which sailed to the Libyan coast under the pretext of providing humanitarian help, weeks before the U.N.S.C Resolution 1973?)
@Larchmonter445:
I wholeheartedly agree, with one exception: the United States of Aggression has no reasons to bomb Iran.
NATO will nullify our nuclear deterrent, the West will de-stabilize our Federation, and a perpetual border war will be on our western flank if we don’t remove the threat in Kiev and defend Novorossiya. Should be take military action if nothing else works?
It is a shame that fools like Yazov do not understand it!
Beyond that, Russia has to examine this: is NATO already in Ukraine and can’t be dealt with? Have we in Moscow been checkmated? Is any defense of Russia and Russian peoples the start of WWIII?
Not really checkmated yet… but “you” (they) have foolishly squandered quite a few valuable chess pieces.
The West rattles its nukes, but shits its pants when anyone stands up to them.
I could not say it better! :-)
We could see that in the case of Chong-un Kim. A brilliant strategist who showed the world how to play the chess game with the few pieces that he had. First we could hear the prelude of the Western salami tactics: “the denuclearization dance is about to commence”… and then their arrogant, knuckle-dragging, sabre-rattling “diplomacy” of demanding something for nothing. The West started with the usual mobbing and intimidation and threats of escalation, but then Chong-un Kim proved himself as a very capable negotiator and showed them that he could play their game… Again, there were the usual propaganda pieces in the Western press about how the DPRK’s economy would soon collapse if the Kaesong industrial park was shut down… and how the West can “put pressure” on the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea through such “threats”. But comrade Chong-un Kim preempted them and ordered the shutdown of Kaesong industrial park… and he went even further and cut the hotline between the two Koreas. He simply responded in kind to the threats, he was playing by the Western rules… to the point that the West shitted its pants and Chuck Hagel himself had to step in and backtrack from the mess that they had caused.
As a side note: ironically, it was South Korea that begged for the reopening of the Kaesong industrial park in the end (through the pressure of South Korean businessmen).
@Larchmonter445:
The West ideology is repression of the people it rules. They are thieves, not warriors.
Exactly, sir!
They are thieves and mobsters, not warriors. They are quick to rob and steal from non-compliant people (whom they label “dictators”). They are quick to bully non-compliant nations with all sorts of sanctions.
But their power rests on perpetuating the illusion (or rather, the delusion) of democracy.
Have you heard the old adage: “If voting changed anything, they would abolish it”…? (Incidentally, it is also the title of an autobiographical book by Ken Livingstone.)
Speaking of books, there is another fine one named “Ill Fares the Land” by Tony Judt. He argues in it that since the 1960s the real essence of democracy has disappeared in the West and the politics there is focused solely on the “technical machinery” of keeping the power structure and the political course unchanged, regardless of elections and their results.
They are mobsters because “unity” to them is above anything else. While members of the EU still have sovereignty in foreign and security matters, yet they almost always give it up in favour of “the need of the EU to speak with one voice”. So, in effect, we have become a colony of the EU, despite nominally being sovereign.
Even our prime minister, who seems to retain some sanity half of the time, at other times criticizes the Austrian chancellor for a “betrayal of (the principles of) the EU” because of the Austria’s accession to the South Stream project.
So, while all the traitors and saboteurs of the EU bemoan the energy insecurity of the EU, they all they can to sabotage it in order to spite Russia. While they claim that the energy security of the EU is one of the highest priorities, in reality it is much lower than the the EU leaders’ neo-colonial vanity. Although the South Stream project could get en exception from the so-called Third Energy Package, it won’t – because the need to spite Russia is of greater importance to the EU leaders, much greater than the needs of their EU citizens!
And while the Austrian chancellor does his best for his country and for the rest of the EU as well – to increase the energy security of the EU, he receives no gratitude from his suicidal peers, only vicious bashing for “kowtowing to Putin” and whatnot.
(In my humble opinion, the they ought to be shot at point-blank range!)
There is no threat to Europe or America if Kiev disappears. There is actually the relieving of a threat to peace, order and economic balance.
Exactly, but the EU and NATO arsonists are constantly drumming up the fears of fire at “our borders” and the need to give the arsonists even greater leeway.
It will be like East Germany being reunited. West Ukraine dissolves into Poland and whoever the hell else wants them, and Novorrossiya develops. The region remains neutral. People are separated by their own choice (I go, I stay).
Exactly! Rather, we should be speaking of Galicia, Ukraine and Novorossiya. Many people (including Valerij Kupka, a Rusyn writer, poet, translator and university teacher born in Ukraine in 1962, living in Slovakia since 1978) point out that Ukraine itself has the same tendencies to gobble up less numerous and weaker peoples and their regions.
Current Ukraine is an unnatural, artificial territory. Despite all his shortcomings, we should rather hail Stalin for his basic approach to nationalities. The Poles often criticize him for claiming the territory up to the Curzon Line, yet it was the natural boundary for the respective nationalities (Poles to the west and Belarusians to the east).
@Larchmonter445:
Happy Fourth of July. It once meant Liberty. Today, it is beyond description to think of my country’s government as anything other than a sick, twisted Tyranny. Jefferson warned us. Franklin, too. Washington did and so, too, Eisenhower. Plain language warnings. You can never trust any government.
Speaking of Benjamin Franklin, this is what the Putinisque appeasers should repeat to themselves: “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Anonymous @ 04 July, 2014 19:46:
His little joke doing dying children, women, elderly, ended up with several cities, then to betray this population? Sorry, but I do not know who is worse, the Nazis of Ukraine or Putin
Because he seems to be corrupt to the bone, indeed. What he defended in the case of Crimea, no longer seems to apply in the case of Novorossiya. He claimed that he “respected” the referendums, yet in reality he completely ignores them, shaming himself and his office!
The Wend:
Those 41% who oppose Iazov are smarter then 59% who support his statement. As simple as that!
Exactly!
I understand that Yazov may be a respected person, yet he retired 2 decades ago and his current strategic thinking is ridiculous, it should be mocked by all sane people who have not been in coma for the past 2 decades, not just by military strategists.
Anonymous of 04 July, 2014 20:17:
If Putin went in to save the people of Novorossiya, you would, I am sure, see Russian ‘opinion polls’ turn, and rocket to 80-per-cent-plus approval.
Many of us are in mourning for the victims of Novorossiya, and also for the death of our hopes in Putin and Russian leadership. These days in Ukraine may actually be world-historical, marking the end, the final sad end, of enlightened leadership in Europe as a whole. With Putin compromised and weak now, who else will ever again dare to be strong?
I could not say it better! He held all the trump cards at the beginning…! Oh, with a leader like that, who needs enemies?!
This was the very last chance, but it was bitterly squandered…!
The hopes for a multipolar world have collapsed within a week!
Justinian:
From the standpoint of international law, Russia would only live up to the Western standards (in the case of Kosovo & Metohia). The West had been shitting on international law for 20 years, the West only “discovered” it in the case of Crimea, but is still arrogantly shitting on in in the case of Syria.
Concerned in Canada
Of course, Navi Pillay is the globalists’ stooge. A mere puppet, just like the General Secretary of the United Nations and many other U.N. officials who have shamefully turned the United Nations into a catalyst of international conflicts!
Veritas:
It has already been censored… But I started to write this yesterday, so I managed to saved the page and it is still open in my browser… ;-)
Anonymous @ 04 July, 2014 20:41:
You must be totally crazy, mate…!
Being a minion of the West gives one total immunity from all war crime charges! Furthermore, it provides one with a near certainty of being given asylum, a safe heaven and a life of opulence in the West.
That is the main problem in the first place!
Indeed, Ukraine is just one front, but now right at Russia’s doorstep (because Russia has always cowardly retreated before), and now Russia is retreating again!
It’s not fair that the civilians are dying, but a premature move might be disastrous.
Indeed, but a belated move will surely be disastrous… and Russia does not have any other options, only belated moves with disastrous consequences.
In the end, Russian hubris will vanish in a puff of smoke. Trust me, mate, I have seen this “principled attitude” of the Russian leaders many times before, they all start with lecturing and indignation and sympathies from rest of the world… and it all ends with Russian gratitude for being allowed to walk away with tail between their legs and with anger, frustration and scorn from the rest of the world.
I think that they have been doing it ever since the Cuban missile crisis…
In the end, they shall be soundly defeated.
Rockerduck:
Putin is not alone in command – right.
Most powerful Russian lobbies are against intervention – right.
Non-intervention will allow Russia to develop as a “regular”, peaceful Country, accepted and respected – wrongo.
Putin has had a unique opportunity to transform Russia into a “regular” and respected country, he could have used tremendous his popularity to reform the country, to break the rule of oligarchs and replace it with the the ordinary Russians’ pride of their country as a new source of political legitimacy.
Sadly, he has failed miserably.
Russia will now be hazed and subject to even more brazen attacks.
Have they completely forgotten the old saying that the best defended border is one which is defended by Russian solders on both sides?!
Anonymous @ 04 July, 2014 21:09:
What is going on?
Well, to put it briefly, the Russians are once again “strategically retreating” just like the Red Army was in 1941, with the exception that they had the superior force and were better prepared this time.
what really worries me is that there is no real unity in the milita side.
– people are asking them to leave from some smaller places, thinking that they would avoid being shot at.
– deserters in their ranks
– donbas internal struggle for power.
Of course there is no unity – with the West and the whole Ukrainian army standing against them and Russia betraying and backstabbing them, there can hardly be a sense of unity, if they have no allies.
But this is Putin’s mess!
I do recognize patterns of dying nation in some of the actions, but hell, why deserters and why internal struggle?
They become embittered and quarrels arise.
They have been betrayed and are being massacred, without a glimmer of hope for any relief.
Most of the people just want peace and prosperity, but the „Chocolate Hitler“ wants neither; he just wants them to pay his IMF loan with which he funds his killing machine and “bombing his own people” (in Western parlance).
Anonymous @ 04 July, 2014 20:41:
You must be totally crazy, mate…!
Being a minion of the West gives one total immunity from all war crime charges! Furthermore, it provides one with a near certainty of being given asylum, a safe heaven and a life of opulence in the West.
That is the main problem in the first place!
Indeed, Ukraine is just one front, but now right at Russia’s doorstep (because Russia has always cowardly retreated before), and now Russia is retreating again!
It’s not fair that the civilians are dying, but a premature move might be disastrous.
Indeed, but a belated move will surely be disastrous… and Russia does not have any other options, only belated moves with disastrous consequences.
In the end, Russian hubris will vanish in a puff of smoke. Trust me, mate, I have seen this “principled attitude” of the Russian leaders many times before, they all start with lecturing and indignation and sympathies from rest of the world… and it all ends with Russian gratitude for being allowed to walk away with tail between their legs and with anger, frustration and scorn from the rest of the world.
I think that they have been doing it ever since the Cuban missile crisis…
In the end, they shall be soundly defeated.
Rockerduck:
Putin is not alone in command – right.
Most powerful Russian lobbies are against intervention – right.
Non-intervention will allow Russia to develop as a “regular”, peaceful Country, accepted and respected – wrongo.
Putin has had a unique opportunity to transform Russia into a “regular” and respected country, he could have used tremendous his popularity to reform the country, to break the rule of oligarchs and replace it with the the ordinary Russians’ pride of their country as a new source of political legitimacy.
Sadly, he has failed miserably.
Russia will now be hazed and subject to even more brazen attacks.
Have they completely forgotten the old saying that the best defended border is one which is defended by Russian solders on both sides?!
Anonymous @ 04 July, 2014 21:09:
What is going on?
Well, to put it briefly, the Russians are once again “strategically retreating” just like the Red Army was in 1941, with the exception that they had the superior force and were better prepared this time.
what really worries me is that there is no real unity in the milita side.
– people are asking them to leave from some smaller places, thinking that they would avoid being shot at.
– deserters in their ranks
– donbas internal struggle for power.
Of course there is no unity – with the West and the whole Ukrainian army standing against them and Russia betraying and backstabbing them, there can hardly be a sense of unity, if they have no allies.
But this is Putin’s mess!
I do recognize patterns of dying nation in some of the actions, but hell, why deserters and why internal struggle?
They become embittered and quarrels arise.
They have been betrayed and are being massacred, without a glimmer of hope for any relief.
Most of the people just want peace and prosperity, but the „Chocolate Hitler“ wants neither; he just wants them to pay his IMF loan with which he funds his killing machine and “bombing his own people” (in Western parlance).
Andrew:
There was a valid referendum (although “internationally unrecognized”, but the Syrian presidential election was not internationally respected either).
Furthermore, the Ukrainian constitution—for all it is worth—gives sovereignty to the people, who are the sole legitimate source of power and it gives them the right to elect whomever they want, including governors. Arguably, those people’s governors have greater legitimacy than the ones appointed by the Kievan junta.
I am in a hurry, so I do not have the time to back it up with quotations this time.
Putin should have recognized the regions and started talks with them, giving them greater legitimacy, which would also improve the conditions in the regions, as those people have no protector and the whole West stands united behind the „Chocolate Hitler’s“ campaign of ethnic cleansing, despite the overt demands that he negotiate with the rebels, the West is utterly pleased if the Chocolate Hitler completely ignores it and proceeds with brute force against essentially peaceful people whose only sin is that they like Russia more that the EU.
The Stepping Razor:
If you cannot protect your own people and your own strategic interests, you are a failure – plain and simple!
Persecutions of Russians all over the world? :-o
Could it be worse than it is now, where Russians in Ukraine are subject to ethnic cleansing?!
As for the Russians in the Baltic cuntries – that could have been Putin’s ultimate trump card against further NATO enlargement. Those Baltic countries are now some of the forefront tension escalators. And Anders Fogh Hitler perpetually “reassures” with protection”, speaking of “Russia’s aggressive behaviour” and whatnot.
So, Putin should turn to them and make it clear to them that if they the peace bothers them and if they prefer sabre-rattling, they could as well lose the peace and eventually go up in a puff of smoke.
After all, the Russians there are subject to severe discrimination; Putin could bring up this topic: “Either you carry out reforms bringing them up to the European standard, or you shall face the consequences!” Of course, the Baltic NATO puppets would be exasperate, but the EU would not be able to help them – the EU itself would risk severe internal turmoil due to the exposed, naked double standards.
Russians have been subject to abductions and torture by the U.S.A.; now it will be even worse.
===
So to sum up yesterday’s comments:
The West is so successful because it always stands by it allies, no matter how abominable they are, be Kosovan, Libyan, or Syrian terrorists, the West never betrays its allies.
Unlike Russia, which throws its allies overboard at the slightest whim.
So… perhaps I would for severe sanctions against the Russians. While they are my Slavic brethren, they deserve it for their colossal stupidity, for all the squandered hopes,…
I shall no longer feel sympathy for such daubers and traitors.
I know, I know the Russian mentality, they will often say: “Whatever, but not another war…!” but soon they shell have it!
Ratko Mladić singlehandedly created Republika Srpska while mighty Russia can’t decimate several thousands of right sector thugs.We must have in mind that nato was bombing Serbs through fierce air strikes.But i guess Serbs have the guts.Well, after all that macho posturing meant nothing and those oligarcs are the ones who are running the show.If there is 150 million Serbs instead of Russians.Maybe they would free the world i think.Jovan