Semi-Official translation of the newspaper El Pais:
——-
Good evening,
We find ourselves at a critical juncture for our existence as a democracy. In these circumstances, I wish to address all Spaniards. We have all witnessed the facts that have taken place in Catalonia, with the illegal declaration of independence as the final goal of the Catalan Government (Generalitat).
For a long time, some Catalan authorities have repeatedly, consciously and deliberately flouted the Constitution and their own Statute of Autonomy, which is the law that acknowledges, protects and safeguards their historic institutions and their self-government.
With their decisions, they have systematically infringed the rules legally and rightfully approved and have shown an unacceptable disloyalty towards the institutions of the State. A State of which, by the way, those authorities are the highest representatives in Catalonia.
They have violated the democratic principles of the rule of law and they have undermined the Catalan society’s harmony and coexistence, unfortunately even to the point of driving a wedge within it. Today, the Catalan society is fractured and at loggerheads.
The Catalan authorities have underestimated the affections and feelings of solidarity that have united and will long unite the Spaniards, and with their reckless behavior, they may be even endangering the economic and social stability of Catalonia and of Spain as a whole.
In short, this has been the completion of an unacceptable attempt to take over the historic institutions of Catalonia. Those authorities have unequivocally and categorically placed themselves outside the law and outside democracy. They have tried to break Spain’s unity and national sovereignty, which is the right of all Spanish people to democratically decide on their life together.
Therefore, and in light of this extremely serious situation, that requires everyone’s commitment to pursue the common interests, the rightful powers of the State have the responsibility to guarantee the constitutional order and the normal functioning of the institutions, the validity of the rule of law and Catalonia’s self-government, based on the Constitution and their own Statute of Autonomy.
Today I wish to send several messages to all Spaniards and in particular to Catalans. To the citizens of Catalonia —to all of them—, I wish to reiterate that we have been living for several decades already in a democratic State, that provides constitutional ways for anyone to defend their ideas within the law. Because, as we all know, without respect for the law, there is no possible democratic coexistence in peace and freedom, neither in Catalonia, nor in the rest of Spain, nor anywhere in the world. In a democratic and constitutional Spain, they know that they have a space for coexisting and getting along with all their fellow citizens.
I am well aware that in Catalonia there is also great concern and anxiety about the Catalan authorities’ behavior. To those who feel that way, I assure that they are not nor they will be alone; they have all the support and the solidarity of the rest of the Spanish people, as well as the absolute guarantee given by the rule of law in the defense of their freedom and their rights.
To all Spaniards, who are living through these events full of sadness and distress, I send a message of calm, confidence and hope.
These are troubled times, but we will overcome them. These are very complicated times, but we will get through them. Because we believe in our country and we are proud of what we are. Because our democratic principles are solid and strong. And they are so because they are based on the wishes of millions and millions of Spaniards who want a peaceful and free coexistence. That is how we have gradually built the Spain of these last decades. And that is how we must go forward, with serenity and determination. In that road, in that improved Spain that we all want, Catalonia will be too.
Let me end this words, addressed to all Spaniards, by emphasizing once again the Crown’s firm commitment to the Constitution and to democracy, my own dedication to a climate of understanding and harmony among Spaniards, and my commitment, as King, to the unity and continuity of Spain.
——-
Translation by F.MAN
Message from His Majesty the King
Palace of La Zarzuela, October 3, 2017
Goodnight,
We are living very serious moments for our democratic life. And in these circumstances, I want to address Myself directly to all Spaniards. We have all witnessed of the events that have taken place in Catalonia, with the final pretension of the Generalitat(1) to declare -illegally- the independence of Catalonia.
For some time now, certain Authorities in Catalonia, in a repeated, conscious and deliberate manner, have been breaching the Constitution and its Statute of Autonomy, which is the Law that recognizes, protects and shelter its Self-Governance and Historical Institutions
Through their decisions they have systematically infringe all legitimate approved Norms(2), demonstrating an inadmissible disloyalty to the Powers of the State. A state which, precisely, these Authorities represent in Catalonia.
They have broken the Democratic Principles of every State that follows the Rule of the Law and have undermined the Harmony and Coexistence in the same Catalonian Society, and unfortunately, divide it. Today Catalonian society is fractured and confronted.
These Authorities have disrupted the affections and feelings of solidarity that have had united and will unite the Spaniards; and with his irresponsible behavior even might have jeopardize the economic and social stability of Catalonia and all Spain.
In short, all this has meant the culmination of an unacceptable attempt of appropriation of the Historical Institutions of Catalonia. These Authorities, in a clear and resolute manner, have been placed entirely outside the Law and outside Democracy. They have tried to break the Unity of Spain and the National Sovereignty, which is the right of all Spaniards to democratically decide their life together.
For all this and in view of this extremely serious situation, that requires the firm commitment of all with the general interests (3), it is the responsibility of the Legitimate Powers of the State to ensure the functioning of all Constitutional and Normal Order and Institutions, the validity of the Rule of Law and the Self-governance of Catalonia, based on the Constitution and its Statute of Autonomy.
Today, I would also like to transmit several messages to all Spaniards, particularly the Catalonians.
To the citizens of Catalonia -to all of them- I want to reiterate that for decades we have been living in a Democratic State that offers the means (under the constitution and the Rule of Law) for anyone to defend their ideas. Because, as we all know, without that respect (4) there is no coexistence, no Democracy in peace neither Freedom, not in Catalonia nor in the rest of Spain, or anywhere in the world. In the constitutional and democratic Spain, they know well that they have a space for concord (5) and meeting between his fellow citizens.
I know very well that in Catalonia there is also much anxiety and great concern about the conduct of the Authorities of the Autonomous Region (of Catalonia). To those who feel it, I tell them that they are not alone, nor will they be; they have all the Support and Solidarity of the rest of the Spaniards, and the absolute guarantee of the State and the Rule of Law in the defense of their freedom and their rights.
And to all the Spaniards, who live with uneasiness and sadness these events, I am sending you a message of tranquility, confidence and also hope.
These are difficult times, but we will overcome them. These are very complex moments, but we will move forward. Because we believe in our country and we are proud of who we are. Because our democratic principles are strong and solid. Because they are based on the desire of millions and millions of Spaniards to live together in Peace and Freedom. That’s how we went building the Spain of the last decades. And we must follow that path, with serenity and determination. In that way, in that better Spain than we all wish, will also be Catalonia.
I finish these words, addressed to all the Spanish people, to stress once again the firm commitment of the Crown with the Constitution and Democracy, my commitment to the understanding and harmony between Spaniards, and my commitment as King with the Unity and Permanence of Spain.
- “La Generalitat” it is the traditional name of the Regional Government in Catalonia
- I think he means both Local and National Laws
- Meaning the interest of all People (all Spaniards in general) in the Nation
- He means the Respect for the Laws. To live under the Rule of Law
- A place for agreement and encounter (this is a difficult sentence)
The original Spanish speech: http://diariodeavisos.elespanol.com/2017/10/texto-integro-del-discurso-del-rey-felipe-vi-la-crisis-cataluna/
If I could have said what “not” to do in his situation.It would have been to say those things. He very well may have sealed the fate of a united Spain. And possibly his own fate as King of that united Spain with that speech. Instead of apologizing for the violence.And calling for negotiations.He went hard-line and implied threats.Spain is trying to compete with Ukraine for the title of most foolish country in Europe. Its a hard title to win. The competition among so many is strong.But with their actions (and it looks to be future actions) ,Spain may very well capture that title.
No nation needs a corrupt non-elected monarchy anyway. His speech does not impress anyone seeking freedom from castillan shackles. Spain will soon be too deep in trouble to be able to support any NATO agressive foreign activity.
This internal western conflict makes globalists look bad in front of their own peoples. Yesterday, I saw canadian papers with anti-independance editorial lines, hammering on Rajoy for “doing anything that should not be done in such a situation”. This clown monarch is making it worst and I hope this will distract the West, or at least Europe, in such a way that they’ll be too busy to throw anymore terror against the people of Syria.
Indeed. There is a tacit fear held by many Canadian nationalists and neoliberals, whose dread the very same thing happening, here. In fact they appear to mirror their patrician counterparts in Spain, all too closely, with each headed by a member of the same royal lineage.
Yet North America is a hot house for these so-called Catalonians. Their personality profiles matches that of the Ukranazis and Croats who have been cultivated to wreak havoc back in their homelands.
Also recall that when Noam Chomsky applauds anarchy in Spain, he is talking about a movement in this very area of Spain. With an old spook like Chomsky flapping his lips about it for 50 years, this is a longstanding project. Agents for it have been cultivated in NA institutions for at least 40 years.
Scott Humor’s thoughts make the picture clearer.
It is much better an elected corrupt president, you can change it every few years, for a new corrupt one.
about the Castilian Shackles… hey guys, seriously. What have you smoked? we are not in the 16th Century with the Galleys coming back from America full of gold. Nor we are in the Middle Ages with these dinastic little wars that ravaged Castilla y Leon.
I have been reading in these Days quite a lot of comments that base all reasoning in old Prejudices (Black Legend, Civil War, Franco…) that are all nonsense now. It is like saying that all the problems the UK have about the Brextit are because of the Boer War, or the Sepoy mutiny in India, or the bad feeling they have against France because of Azincourt, or the bad trip they had in Dunkirk.
Spain is a Democracy since 1978. Could anyone simply use a little bit of sanity, and think before writting. Some historical references are all ok, but Spain today is far beyond all this. The problems are others.
change Catalonia for … any region with a minority in your country… and think what would your government do if this minority in your country decide to declare independency after a fake, illegal referendum, with a turnover below 35%.
You say the referendum is fake. Some have said the Spanish leader is in denial. What if he isn’t? What if this was just a Soros production, a huge theater production, bad cops and all.
One thing is for certain, the Spanish leadership better decide who their friends are quickly. They can not make it as serbian fence sitters. Non-aligned movements don’t work. You can’t serve two masters.
It is amazing how the protestant countries , anglosaxons and germanics , hate the catholic and orthodox countries and cultures , and maintain all types of racistic prejudices about them throughout the centuries .
F.MAN writes: “change Catalonia for … any region with a minority in your country… and think what would your government do if this minority in your country decide to declare independency after a fake, illegal referendum, with a turnover below 35%.”
But this is not what happened and it is not what was going to happen.
What happened: the central government decided on violence even before the vote, not after independence was declared. A vote is a peaceful act; it does not justify pre-meditated violence from the state. The state can deal with the legality or illegality of the vote after the fact.
What was going to happen: Even if the election resulted in a vote for independence, we cannot say that independence was declared. Look at Brexit for an example – negotiations will take place regarding the form. In Spain, this would be even more complicated than Brexit, as Catalonia is not already a sovereign state.
One can write many things about legalities and illegalities – a strange conversation to have when the final arbiter is the entity from which one wishes to flee. However, I cannot fathom a reason to defend the state’s violent, pre-meditated actions in the case of what amounts to a peaceful protest.
Spain is not Ukraina , Bob . Although the catalan separatists are similar to the fanatic Banderisti , most of the catalans feel Spanish . And even the catalan separatist are not as violent and self destructive as the Ucranians , Ucrania is probabiliy the most foolish country of Europe and even of the world , they managed to go down to only 2000 euros of per capita income /year , like Senegal , so far for their ” european dream ” . Catalans feel more ” european ” ( meaning more distinguished ) than the rest of Spain , you know . …..Beware of european dreams , beware of pride . The EU and USA should not foster such ” dreamings ” ….
Spain has been around for 2000 years in the history of Europe and the world , as a Roman province gave 3 emperors to Rome : Trajano , Adriano and Teodosio . Ukraina is Rusia , but pretending not to be what you are is toxic .
Uncle Bob, your point is well taken, but ukraine isn’t a self-governed nation, so they can’t bear the full blame for the inherent stupidity that is manifest in their current political situation. Spain, a historic nation of colonizers, oppressors and terrorists – franco, conquistadors, inquisition, etc. can be expected to act in this current manner. However, as for full blown foolishness, faux “euro” state polakia (poland to most) takes the prize for willingly accepting their lot as cannon fodder for NATO and its real European states.
I’m in no way a Spanish connoisseur or even fluent in the language, but, based on my knowledge of its sister language, Portuguese, may I humbly offer an alternative translation for number 5?
“A place of understanding and togetherness for its fellow citizens.”
The king is Head of State and Commander of the Armed Forces.
“Therefore, and in light of this extremely serious situation, that requires everyone’s commitment to pursue the common interests, the rightful powers of the State have the responsibility to guarantee the constitutional order and the normal functioning of the institutions”
The relevant paragraph is this one. In my opinion, if the Catalan government doesn’t stop its current course right away, serious force will be used. They will be hit hard. That is what he is saying, I think.
You hit the point. That, and the last Paragraph.
under the lines he is saying: Stop this nonsense, or else.
anyway there is a lot of people that are just following the BS the MSM is hoarding.
Or have a lot of prejudice about Spain. Looks like the “Black Leyend” is still in full force, with all the topics being repeated again and again.
Spain is no “Imperial Castille” opressing the Iberian Peoples. That is just… stupid. Also there is people thinking that we are still in the 16th Century, or that the Civil war ended yesterday, or as if Franco is still warm in his Grave.
For me, the Game is Over, Gentlemen.
For this Independetist people now comes the tantrum, the crying and defamation, little bit of victimization… and let’s try again some years later. They will pay darely in the next election in Catalonia.
And I hope NAtional Elections in short time, so that spaniards (all of them) can put Rajoy and the Ringlets of rebels in his place. The first one Fired from his position, the others in Jail for a couple of years…
ES / Bien dicho. Rajoy dimisión y los delincuentes de la Generalidad de Cataluña, a la cárcel. Y elecciones en Cataluña y en España, aquí todos tenemos mucho que decir.
***
EN / Well said. Rajoy must resign and the criminals sitting in the Catalonian Government should go to jail. Elections must be held, in Catalonia and in Spain, we all have much to say.
You calling to jail your opposition and use the military to settle a matter that should be negociated confirms my point that you are closer to the ukrobanderists than the catalonians. Your petty denial of reality about the current state of the fake spanish “democracy” while denying he rights of your opposition confirms me your political bias is a violent and abusive one. Shame. Rajoy and the useless king are incompetent globalist NATO vassals, as are the members of their fan club.
More of the same – condescension and bullying. The Spanish ‘elite’ has been utterly discredited. The Spanish voters in general also bear a responsibility for voting in these violent idiots – democracy comes with responsibility and consequences.
I’m no fan of separatists in general, with local politicians always trying to build their little fiefdoms into something larger. However, local politicians can be voted out easier than getting rid of old, semi-retarded bureau-aristocracies. Hence, I tenatively support the independence drive, with great concern about escalation of violence and economic strangulation.
Andrew , so you are ambivalent about separatists . I understand that you do not support separatism in your country but you do for Spain , so you want to preserve your country but you wish the destruction of Spain , that `s not very nice
You say that the” Spanish elite has been utterly discredited ” , given that the Spanish elite is a client of the anglootanic elite , are you suggesting the the anglootanic elite is also discredited ? ,or maybe you think that the anglos can never get discredited , being such a fantastic race , maybe you think that discredit only can fall on second rate non anglo peoples such as Hispanics , Slavs , Arabs ,Chinese etc…?
Please clarify these points for us .
Dear Respect,
at this point it is useless to try to explain the reality of the facts, or try reasoning with logical arguments with some people (much of them commenting in here as much as other Blogs and Media)
Because therir Paradigms about Spain are constructed and based on some kind of alternate reality. Starting with the Black Legend, throught the Civil War, and ending in the BS the MSM is feeding them. That Reality is based solely on PROPAGANDA. And off course a lot of arrogancy and contempt for the History of Spain, all Southern European Countries, Russia, and Asia; specially in all Anglosaxon countries (bit less in Germany and France, but not much)
Being able to pull appart the Real facts from BS (aka PROPAGANDA) requires effort, logic reasoning and a minimum of culture which unfortunately they lack.
Do not waste your time with them because most of them can not change.
just like everywhere else there are all kinds of people.
spanish have it bad because of their education system.
their history is huge, but mostly they only learn the revised “good ” part of it… most are unaware 100+ years ago there was even a war between usa and spain… their mass media is so schewed and politized it hurts…
otoh “Do not waste your time with them because most of them can not change.” is so negative it should be not said about anyone…
Another key paragraph:
“I know very well that in Catalonia there is also much anxiety and great concern about the conduct of the Authorities of the Autonomous Region (of Catalonia). To those who feel it, I tell them that they are not alone, nor will they be; they have all the Support and Solidarity of the rest of the Spaniards, and the absolute guarantee of the State and the Rule of Law in the defense of their freedom and their rights.”
He is talking to the so called “silent majority”. Yes m a j o r i t y, who speak Spanish but can’t send their children to school in their language and are despised by a bunch of clownish snowflakes wrapping themselves in flags. And are seething with silent rage.
Soros is supporting the Catalonians. That is enough for me to think that no good will come of it.
Please post a link of Soros declaring he supports catalonian independance. I searched the site of his “foundation” and found nothing of the sort.
His majesty is saying that:
1. Catalonian separatists have no real reason or excuse to break the region off, as their rights as a self-governing autonomy are respected.
2. Separating Catalonia from Spain is illegal under the Spanish constitution, as all other provinces must be consulted and agree to let a province break off.
3. Catalonian separatists have broken Catalonian society and destroyed the province’s peaceful life.
4. Doing so also (potentially) damages Spain’s economy.
5. The king is aware of the silent majority of Spanish citizens in Catalonia who have been worried about the increasing misbehaviour of Catalonia’s autonomous government.
6. His majesty has said it straight: Catalonia is part of the future united and democratic Spain. He is not accepting any secession.
All-in-all he’s not threatening to use force, rather he’s trying to keep things civil and calm everyone down. That is a very diplomatic speech.
You can tell this face to face to the beaten people. They fully enjoyed the “democracy” you are talking about.
If there is really a silent majority, why not have an *official* referendum with mandatory participation of all citizens of Catalunya?
That should settle the issue once and for all!
Agreed with Hestroy and Seb.
I would also add that if you think a regime with an unelected, hereditary monarch draining the national budget for his existence of luxury, is a “democracy”, then we clearly do not share the same definition of “democracy”. I prefer republics.
He the king should be ashamed of at this point get out with a such speech. The existence of a King in Spain gives by its own enough motivation to secede…
Hey guys, did you remember this #$%%%! told to Comandante Hugo Chaves to shut-up once ?
If was the president, people would still make an effort to listen.
About Catalonia,is it Ukraine 2.0? You will see a real mess if the Bascos come up also wanting independence. BTW, never forget it is the right-wing post-modern neo-cons manipulating the legitimate peoples aspirations there.
well the old King told Chaves to “shut the F*ck up”
But if you inform yourself why he did it, and look at the circumstances it is also a logic reaction for any person. (I know this might be difficult, because require the effort of check the news you are feed, their veracity, and objetivity.)
It was the the speaking time of the King, and Chaves, just a couple of meters away was critizising and making quite gross comments all the time, quite aloud. At some point the old king just turned to him and told him “hey you, why don’t you shut up?”
so, nothing to be surprised about, just a normal people reaction, don’t you think?
sorry It wasn’t the kings speech, it was President Zapatero’s speech (the old King was just at his side)… the rest is the same
Chavez was talking about Aznar and Spain involvement in the coup against him, which was true. The Franco’s King didn’t like it.
BTW, this young King went to Chavez funeral and thousand of venezuelan people said to him ‘Why don’t you shut your f….ing mouth instead?’. I bet the media in Spain never report that.
Rajoy was stupid enough to fall for an obvious provocation. EU is doing everything they can to cover this mess while the british, Soros and Israel are waiting like hyenas behind scenes.
I don’t think the Spanish will pay too much attention to the opinion of this Felipe of Spain.
He had an excellent reputation at the beginning of his tenure and became very popular for a while. Since then, it has been downhill all the way. The corruption exposed has merely speeded up this process.
“Texting Scandal Rocks Spain’s King and Queen”
https://www.thedailybeast.com/texting-scandal-rocks-spains-king-and-queen
The Spanish royal family has always lived close to the edge and the Spanish people are not stupid.
Alfred : Maybe the Spanish pay at least as much attention to their King as the Australians pay to their Queen ERII , Queen of Australia for the last 64 years ….I wish long life to your Queen , I don`t why you despise our King , instead of wishing him good luck .
it is incredible how any descendant of the British Empire feels entitled to judge and insult any nation or people of the world , with arrogance . Maybe that`s why nowadays the media of the anglosphera is less and less respected around the world , even Trump does not believe the american media !!!!
Please stop this obvious victim game, dear spanish unionists. I’ll let you know that this blog is written in english, but it does not mean all people speaking here are english. I’m french. You saying the anglozionists are all against you, when its clearly not the case, seems to be part of your action to earn sympathy points from english speaking anti-globalists.
Just so you know, I equally despise all monarchs. It does not matter if we’re talking about the british, spanish, saudi, thai or swedish one. Medieval relics belong in museums, not on social benefits for the rich, or worse, at the helm of 21st century states.
Interesting the howls of support for the succession in light of events and condemn harsh reactions to quelling the activity of the Catalonian Independence movement.
Reminds me of Maidan and Ukraine.
Look how trying the non violent route worked out for the former President of Ukraine. So, my question is when does Israel send out snipers to indiscriminately shoot up everyone at the protests to really get things kicked off?
For God sake, this is the last thing we’d like to see!!! Anyway, since there have been no armed protestors so far and the police (despite all the fake and hypocritical outrage of the anglozionist media) has showed enourmous restraint, everyone would immediately identify the shooting as a provocation from a third actor… I think Spain is much more solid than the Ukraine.
The Anglozionist media were clearly on the side of spanish unity until Rajoy’s incompetence and brutality made it too hard to hide, since this is happening in the West and not in some saudi shia village. As I said earlier, the anglozionists are getting split on this, mainly because, instead of just ignoring his opposition at home, like all other NATO gang members do, he sent “police” (thug) squads to beats peaceful protesters to try and provoke a violent response from them and failed at it. Rajoy has just shamed the other NATO gang members because, as a part of the gang, he should know better than “doing everything that should not be done in such a situation”.
Wordy way of saying: ‘I support the Spanish imperial state enforcing its rule on all the conquered peoples of Iberia. If necessary, military force will be used to whip Catalunya back into line – as before in Franco’s time.” Useless crypto-fascist figurehead. Monarchy! Who needs it?
Is it a provocation or do you really believe this BS? When people run short of arguments the begin to bring back to life Franco, the Inquisition, the Catholic Kings, etc. Spain is a democratic state and the fundamental law must be respected. Who are you to contest this?
What is the fundamental law? People can’t choose their future? Is that your fundamental law? Well, I think Franco is still pretty alive in your mind. Why you can’t just let them leave? Why?
Because the sovereignty in the Spanish state rests in the Spanish people (the 46 millions Spaniards), not in 90% (alleged result of the illegal referendum) of 42% (Catalans who went to the polling stations) of 16% (Catalonia population) of the Spanish people. I’m sure you understand that some 2 million people cannot illegally and illegitimately force the other 44 millions to do what they want. I’m sure you understand that, it’s very simple.
The “other 44 millions”, as in the rest of Spain that is not Catalonia, have absolutely no right te decide against the wish of self-determination of the catalans. Your argument runs contrary to basic human rights. I also call “BS” on the claims that 100% of those who did not (or could not) vote was a pure block of unionists. Remember the police seized over 700,000 votes and beat up others before they could reach the voting stations.
Again, if the spanish constitution is in flagrant violation of international law, that’s not my problem.
I think I can explain this better:
The sovereignty in Spain rests in the 46 millions Spaniards! That’s according to the rules we agreed upon. The Spanish Constitution has been approved by the Spanish people (the sovereign) *direclty* (by means of a national referendum in 1978)… So sovereign people and direct democracy.
International law is a set of rules agreed by States to try to preserve a stable international order, but is not democratic: 1. Because it does not emerge *directly* from the sovereign (the peoples of those states); 2. Because it’s application is not compulsory (principle of anarchy in the International system -there’s no authority over States) but volontary; 3. Because it’s always twisted by power politics (bigger States can force the hand of smaller States regardless of International Law).
If you believe in self-determination, that is, sovereign peoples deciding on their future, you should be supporting the legal order in Spain, It’s much closer to real sovereignty than the Catalan putschists are. It’s not as simple as the last comment, but I’m sure you understand.
This might help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzaUq6z2Lno
Just the first 16 mins
In every country, we honor those hundreds of thousands who suffered and gave their life for the greatness, independence and unity of their country. In Spain as well.
And now, we witness a handful of politician who organizes the partition of the country. The king reacts ! With a speech, soft and clean…
Not too long ago, soldiers would shoot at these separatists without warning and without orders, and everybody would think and say it’s absolutely normal.
Really, peoples are tired and old…
Maybe it’s normal shooting people for you. But not for everyone.
But… How about the people who were conquered? They gave their lives for their country too, before it become other country. They don’t deserve any honor?
Handful politicians. I didn’t know there are hundreds of thousands politicians in Catalonia, my Spanish friend.
That is not how it was. Catalonia is not a territory that the Spaniards went out and conquered as they did with territories in America or other parts of Europe. It was a principality within a larger kingdom (Aragon) which joined the other main kingdom (Castile) by virtue of the marriage of their respective monarchs, in 1469. You could view it as the bridegroom’s portion of the total matrimonial dowry, if you wish. That is how it came to be part, from the very beginning, of a new political union thenceforth referred to as Spain –not through military conquest. There were confrontations later, in the 17 and 18th centuries, in both of which the central power ended up prevailing. But the initial incorporation into Spain was definetly not achieved by any kind of military campaign.
Yes it was. Aragon never “joined” Castile.Both became subjects of the same sovereign. They remained diferent kingdoms, each with it’s self rule and institutions untill Felipe V won the war of succession, and with the Decretos de Nova Planta supressed all institutions, laws\ and charters of the Crown of Aragon and it´s domains. Through military conquest and ocupation. And called himself Hing of Spain, For the first time in history, no other previous king ever did so.
That was the introduction of absolutism in the peninsula, but did not make the Spain you claimed.
You are ignorant on History. everything you wrote is verifiably false.
The celebration of the 100th anniversary of Finnish independence has created lots of talks what really happened during years of 1914-20. What i would like to put in detail list are these:
– The Grand Duchy of Finland was in retrospect remarkable success for Finland, it’s people, economy, stability and actually the highest time of Finnish culture. It’s not exaggerated to claim that Russian Empire created Finland as a nation.
-Russian Empire encouraged Fennoman Movement to cut off Swedish influence inside Finland (motive: foreign policy, security)
-Finnish nationalists paid Empire (until 1905) with loyality, unlike Polish nationalism. Later nationalist movement was splitt two loyalists and rebells/activists/even terrorists.
– Great majority of Finns were not eagerly supporting independence even in early 1917.
– The Jäger Movement was remarkable unpopular at least until mid 1917. Movement itself was totally created, armed, funded and controlled by German military intelligency. Inside Finland movement was classified as irresponsible and illegal.
– Ruling class, especially business class was not at all interesting in indepence until Nov 1917 (when they realized to have lost lucrative markets of Russian Empire)
– Independence was actually “accidence”, not for majority as “dream come true”. Nov 1917 in Russia was tsunami. And a shock for Finnish upper class.
– Civil War won by Whites was not only horrific tragedy, Finland was trapped by German Empire too. Nowadays its admitted by most Finnish historians than during period of May-Nov 1918 Finland had lost its new independence and became German vassal.
-Tarto 1920 Treaty was seed to further problem because the borderline in Karelian Isthmus was too near to Sankt Petersburg (even Luddendorf noticed it in 1918)
As a Finn i have my strong doubts how realistic and strong Catalonian independence is. As story of Finland is telling, folks are mostly estimating benefits and losses when jumping this bandwagon of independency. But if politicians in Madrid act like fools they can indeed feed this unnecessary split.
Thanks for your description of what happened in Finland.
What is going on in Spain right now is mostly a feud between the Catalan elites and the Madrid elites. The Catalan elites have at their disposal an army of air-headed hipsters and robotized nationalists to make a lot of noise. The majority of Catalans don’t want this.
Othewise, the case of Finland is very different. The nation / state of Spain contained within itself the Principality of Catalonia from the very beginning of its existence (1469) when the monarchs of Castile and Aragon were married.
Catalan nationalism in its modern conception began softly in the late 19th century with a ver small, irrelevant minority of independentists, and grew steadily throughout the 20th century (with a forced parenthesis during the Franco regime, even though it re-started in the open during the 1960s, at least a decade before Franco died.
I am now convinced that the way this process developped, it looks like it has had some continuous feeding and guidance from outside. Especially since 1978 when the current Constitution was adopted (and accepted by 90% of Catalan voters). The process has been too well organized to be just spontaneous, it seems to me, especially in the last few years. Of course, the Spanish State made the whole thing extremely easy for the nationalists by handing over all control of education to the local government, which proceeded to carry out a relentless process of “catalanization”. Even ants and bees were stripped of their Spanishness and Catalanized. Public education in the vehicular language of the State (Spanish) was not allowed, even if it has been the most common language in Catalonia for the entire period. It is really one of the most absurd situations I am aware of in this regard. But that’s what they have.
@ F.MAN
You may want to take a look (and perhaps translate from Spanish) these very brief summaries of what other Constitutions (such as Germany, France and Portugal) say with regard to separation of any of their regions, and control of education etc. These summaries are written in Spanish, they indicate the Article numbers, and are very revealing. They start at comment number 5. In the next comment, the issue of “oppression” is tackled with some basic data.
https://plazamoyua.com/2017/10/03/el-rey-os-ha-traido-el-relato-que-echabais-en-falta-no-estais-solos/#comment-309703
will try later tonite, thx
Trying to prove the unjust part of your constitution is “just” by comparing it with other unjust laws of other nations, still does not make it just. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Commentators F.MAN & ‘Respect’ have my 100% support.
disparaging statement removed —- mod-hs
Nevertheless I don’t share any positive view. This is not only about Catalan and their
wishes for independence. If it was, all could end well. But other foreign interests are
involved: US-Anglo interests, Brussels-German-French interests, big financial interests,
pipeline interests (see Scott’s article). These interest circles won’t let the situation to calm down,
actually they will push to worsen things. Commentator Justin asked, when are they gonna bring
the snipers – well there was a news story that a gun store got broken into and raided. This is only
the beginning.
What is happening now is that the West is devouring ‘their own’ (Spain) after being
unable to rape third world countries anymore. Spain is (this round around) the easiest target.
Next will be Italy (Nord vs South Italy, and South Tirol might go to Austria), Belgium, Scotland,
maybe even East Germany decides to break off and rekindle the DDR. Bavaria also.
All those new statelets will be easier to control and push around by the Empire.
It will be easier to have an EU wide government/budget/army and impose NWO values (gay marriage etc). No statelet will be able to hold off. This is the ultimate ‘divide & conquer’
strategy.
We might also soon see Spain’s big banks killed to be fed to other (French, German, UK)
banks. Other sharks cannibalizing a wounded shark.
With Spain mired in internal problems, the Iberian refugee route will be active – final
destination France & Germany. Suits them right for supporting Nazis and separatists movements.
Karma and all.
A more self confident polity than Spain would have recognised that the post-Franco constitution was merely transitional (denial of the right to secede being the key element to secure support from the extreme Franco wing) and made amendments in line with the requirement of Article 1 (2) of the UN Charter which Spain subscribes to.
Thereafter normal political life resumes. Demographic changes such as the huge influx from Andalucía and other poorer areas of Spain would militate against a separatist vote in Cataluña or The Basque Country.
But at a time when people are diving into skips outside supermarkets and restaurants for food *, I guess the authorities need as many distractions as possible.
* I first saw this outside an upscale restaurant near Malaga ten years ago. Since then I’ve seen it all over.
Cortes wrote:
“A more self confident polity than Spain would have recognised that the post-Franco constitution was merely transitional (denial of the right to secede being the key element to secure support from the extreme Franco wing) and made amendments in line with the requirement of Article 1 (2) of the UN Charter which Spain subscribes to.”
Could you tell us which countries in continental Europe have constitutions that allow the right to secede to any of its regions or provinces?
Does the US allow the right to seced to any of its States. What do you think would happen if, say, the “golden” State of California called a referendum on independence and made a unilateral declaration independence?
Some souls believe Texas has that right because of the way it entered the Union later than others. But check out the “Texas vs White” decision by the US Supreme Court in 1869:
From the decision:
When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States.
And you expected any other outcome from the highest court of the uSA, the victor in the conflict of which Texas was a part?
“When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. …. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States.”
Hmmm. Where is that spelled out in the Constitution of these uSA? No, in the Constitution not under the Articles of Confederation, which ceased to exist the moment 9 of the former colonies seceded implicitly from the AofC to join under a new Consitution.
What Catalonian seperatism shows is that there is no such thing as a democratic state, and that the right to secede is purely theoretical. The nation state itself can wave around a constitution, but forgets the nation state was not forged on the basis of any legal document. Nation states were created from centuries of war and expansion, oppressing smaller groups and making them part of the nation, assimilating border areas with mixed populations, and forcing conformity on them by rolling out state institutions that supported only a single culture and language. All states were instituted by force, and no state ever allows a constituent part to secede, defect, or join itself to another state.
The UN is based on the idea that the state is inviolate, that its land is an integral part of its sovereignty. It is pattered on the integrity and inviolability of the human being, of which the individual is considered to be the smallest indivisible part.
Human rights theory (based on the individual) is by definition at odds with any tribal, national or ethnic group right to exist. If the invidual’s rights are being respected, there cannot be an appeal to the family or to any other higher bond, except that of the state and its institutions and constitution (which are absolute).
Kurds and tens of other groups who you would think are by rights to form their own nation on their own lands are a circumstance which cannot exist according to UN ideas, and therefore have no rights to sovereignty. Only nation states have sovereignty. But their sovereignty cannot be based on any principles of what is right, let alone democracy. They are simply a given, and as we know historically, the congealed result of violence from the past. Behind any constitution or title to ownership, is a history of force which leads to any such legal construct being promulgated.
Well, yes. What you describe is the principle of territorial integrity of the nation-state, which is normally assumed to have begun after the Peace of Westphalia, marking the beginning of the “Wesphaplian system” of nation-states, supposedly still in place.
In theory, according to some specialists in international Law, this princple could be violated in cases of demonstrable and gross abuse of human rights. See for example this article:
https://blog.realinstitutoelcano.org/en/independence-and-the-european-union/
But here you enter a very foggy and tricky territory. If you control the MSM, you can easily concoct a case for intervention, as was done in many well known cases, pulling the justification pretty much out of your cuff. Conversely, you could totally ignore a truly blatant and horrible abuse of basic liberties (wholesale murder qualifies for this category) as we have been witnessing in the way Ukraine is behaving towards the breakaway republics in the Donbass, with complete impunity for more than 3 years already.
In any case, to say that the police intervention on Sunday, trying to prevent a referendum that had been declared illegal, justifies foreign intervention to force Spain to allow the secession of part of its territory, would be pretty laughable at this point, even with all the selected images of the events. But don’t underestimate the resourcefulness of those who are behind this process. A few well-placed and well-hidden snipers, for example, go a long way down this road. Remember Vilnius? Remember Kiev? They might find a quick way to stir enough popular indignation in the social and main media crowds to make them clamor for the liberation of the perceived victim, even if it implies a good old NATO bombing of downtown Madrid, much to the delight of the hipsters and robots worldwide. Why not? At this point, I would not rule out any outcome. Anything is possible.
I have my doubts whether this statement of King Felipe will make any difference. Does he have the respect of the Spaniards that King Juan Carlos had, who with a television speech ended the coup d’etat of Colonel Tejero in 1981? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Tejero
(I remember that then a joke was circulating in Spain, that ‘Tejero was the most potent man of Spain, because an hour after his arrival the first pregnant women left the parliament’)
I also have some doubts about the motives of the backstage actors. Soros was mentioned: http://www.voltairenet.org/article198106.html , but these amounts of money are nothingburgers compared to e.g. the Saudi millions flowing into the Clinton foundation.
(or there might be a lot more, still undiscovered. And everywhere this fossile reptilian meddles, trouble is ahead.)
NATO was mentioned: https://www.globalresearch.ca/catalonia-independence-five-things-to-think-about/5611607 , but most I read is anticipating on a possible independence of Catalonia. The harbours of Barcelona and Tarragona, a pipeline, could all this be possible too when Catalonia is still part of Spain, or am I missing a point here?
The only advantage for NATO could be just another country spending 2% of its GDP on military, but that could also mean Spain spending less. Is that worth it?
Overall I get the impression that the independence is pumped and promoted by certain groups, and is not widely recognized, like e.g. with the referendum in Crimea.
Financially Spain cannot afford to loose Catalonia. With his reactions, the Spanish prime minister did about everything wrong. And when the Catalan government starts pushing this through, they might awake one day and see a military occupation.
What then will happen? Another Soros-style revolution ending in misery? Time will tell. Somehow I got the feeling that also the EU is playing a dangerous game here.
In Catalunya around fifty percent of the population are in favour of independence from Spain, though it must be said quite often because the current stand-off doesn’t allow for any other choice between independence and submission. If we break this number down, I would say that of the people with at least one Catalan grandparent the vast majority are in favour of independence. Of the people with only Spanish grandparents the vast majority are against this idea. Of the immigrants, the majority prefer not to get involved, as they fear they might lose their livelihood in case of serious unrest. Because modern western societies are a mixed affair, this means that the people who have a history with the region feel their desires cannot be met democratically. This frustrates them. In a true and honest democracy, the ruling majority will take care of the needs and anxieties of such minorities. A region like Catalunya would have been granted enough rights and freedoms to keep it happy, as is the case with for instance Quebec and Bavaria. As Spain is only a democracy in name but in reality an oligarchy run by the moneyed elites of old, despite continuous pleas over the last forty years nothing has been done to ease the tensions. And as the king made very clear (though I would suggest this speech was not written by him personally) nothing will be done either.
Québec is not being treated fairly by the canadian federal government. Living there, I just felt the need to point that out. Even with a pro-federalist Liberal party in power in Québec and its federal cousin the Liberal party of Canada, in power in Ottawa, the federal government barely pays attention to the needs of the people of Québec. They ignored all of our pleas to not let the “Energy-East” pipeline pass across the critical water supplies of our territory, but now, Energy-East just might be cancelled… only because the province of New-Brunswick took a stand against it further down the path.
They even call the people of Québec “thieves” because our province is getting poorer and therefore more dependant on federal aid, since the canadian business interests are rivals of Québec business interests and the canadian ones obviously get favored by the federal government. Another good exemple is how we, in Québec, financed 100% of our own national hydro-electric industry, but our taxes are now being used to finance our neighboring province of Newfounland’s hydro-electricity industry, with the clear aim of this industry becoming a competitor or the Québec’s Hydro industry in the field of energy commerce in the USA.
What a hate-filled fascist. This is the end result of liberalism — monarchy by the elites. Just his existence is a perfect legal excuse to rebel against Spain.
Cognitive dissonance alert, the unelected tells the elected what´s what:
Wikipedia: “in modern usage, democracy is a system of government in which the citizens exercise power directly or elect representatives from among themselves to form a governing body, such as a parliament”
King Philip: “We find ourselves at a critical juncture for our existence as a democracy”
Interestingly enough bbc 4 tv channel tonight programme art and culture of “Barcelona an art lovers guide”….but does make reference to the separatism a bit…..probably can use iplayer to catch up……..
Meanwhile in Spain, the day of the referendum, some spanish media were playing a documentary on Peru to avoid talking about what was going on in Catalonia, with the police brutality and all…
Spain is training ground for Brazil and a neat amputation point on EU – South America engagement.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-04/will-brazil-be-next-hotspot-independence-movements
For those who say the EU globalists are backing Catalonia’s independance, the EU commission just approved everything Rajoy and the Madrid government did, including the use of force against peaceful protesters :
https://www.rt.com/news/405704-eu-police-force-catalonia-independence/
Now that they see Catalonia has zero chance to become independent in a half-decent manner (the referendum was a joke, with people being allowed to vote several time, universal census, no electoral authority supervising the whole, etc…) . The EC doesn’t give a damn anyway, sooner or later the EU system of dealing directly with the NUTS 2 level, bypassing states, is going to make secessions more likely within the EU. Look, the EU wants to rule over a myriad of small polities with no power to resist its desiderata. They justs need to sit a bit more and wait. Catalonia was just a fail, it’s still a bit too early…
Assange…Snowden…Catalonia…Ecuador platform…plenty of time to learn Spanish…the irony…car wash…but surely Argentina too…a nice chunk of it combined in a federation with the Faulklands…what about a water baron entity ensconced atop the Amazonas…FARC…Padagonia has been evaluated as a homeland by some…a collapsed weather world might be viable down that way…the stakes are millenial…never has there been so much skin in the game…in every man’s hand a sword and when the music stops a few with their robots and dna tools are noticed recumbent.
Spanish King lines up with Prime Minister to condemn Catalonia
http://theduran.com/spanish-king-lines-prime-minister-condemn-catalonia/
“No words of reconciliation, only more threats and bullying.
In many respects, what the King did not say was more telling than what he did say. There was no call for dialogue, for deescalation or the offer of any proposal for reconciliation or mediation. As is the case with Premier Rajoy, the King stated Madrid’s official position that the referendum is illegitimate and that any subsequent declaration of independence is illegal, but no solutions were offered apart from a commitment to a status quo that has clearly failed.
Ultimately, no matter what one’s position on Catalan independence, rejecting dialogue is now, not only dangerous, but absurd. Madrid’s attitude has only entrenched Catalan opinion against Spain, whereas allowing the vote to proceed peacefully may well have allowed for some Catalan voices for unity to also have their say. As things stand, many more Catalans joined the independence movement than ever before in 21st century history, as a direct result of the disparaging attitude of Madrid and the heavy handed policing tactics on voting day.
Rather than offering consolation through unity, the Spanish King merely acted as a mouthpiece of the Rajoy regime. Madrid is doing everything it can to lose Catalonia, whether the speech writers and policy makers realise it or not.”
BREAKING: Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont calls for mediation while slamming Spanish King’s response to referendum
http://theduran.com/breaking-catalan-leader-carles-puigdemont-calls-for-mediation-while-slamming-spanish-kings-response-to-referendum/
“On the whole, the message was one of criticism for the Spanish King and Prime Minister but nevertheless, a message which called for dialogue rather than discord. In this sense, it is up to Spain to respond in a manner that departs from the rhetoric that has previous come from Madrid which continues to ignore the referendum’s impact while seeking to maintain a status quo that seems increasingly untenable.”
clarifying what is happening in Spain with a little Story about TOM and JACK
Jack – well Tom… I am going to take your auto, the house and the money. please leave your House…
Tom – What.., are you crazy? thats my house, my car and my money. You do want to steal me!
Jack – We make a votation and 100% says its ok…
Tom – But, it was you alone who voted this nonsense… WTF!
Jack – Yes, I know, that´s the beauty of democrazy. But a vote it is a vote. It is your fault you didn’t vote. Please take your personal belongings and leave…
Tom – You touch my things and I shoot your head off, you criminal bastard. Get away before I call the Police…
Jack – Oh my…! how undemocratic! police Brutality… you are going to pay for this, I will Sue you for Damages… but you know what? t we can speak about it later. Please give me your keys…
Tom – (taking his shotgun from the wall) Get away, last chance.
Jack – You are putting a Show here, look, all your neighbors are looking, and they look like to express their concern about your actions. Lets call for some agreement and maybe they can help us with their mediation. But what’s for sure … you better leave now from my House and… (walking towards Tom who is standing at his door and starting to wrestle to take the gun from him)
do I keep with the History…?
Jack was shoot down and Died. All neighbors though Tom was crazy.
Tom was detained in front of all, later tried and declared innocent of all charges (as he acted in self defense, against a crazy man who assaulted it.)
well. this is more or less what is happening in Spain now.
King Speech it is just the Police telling Jack to stop nonsense and keep going.
No, this analogy from F.MAN does not apply to Catalonia, at all. Is Catalonia trying to annex spanish lands outside of Catalonia ? No. This analogy is insane. End of the story.
well Catalonia IS Spain, it was for the last 500 years, and no matter What, I doubt much it is going not-to-be Spain in the Future.
About anexing other lands… well they claim also Valencia, Balearic islands an the East Aragon (not to mention Perpignan, Corsica and Cerdeña, in France and Italy and some more territories somewhere else…) as Historical Catalonian Lands… if they where to be independent what do you think were they to do after that…
These guys are National Socialist at their Early Stage, speaking about the Catalan People and their Historic Territories (when I said they are Nazis it is because the are, sorry but we must call things with their right name. Ideologically and in Behavior, just the Arian Racial component is lack, but there is the “fet diferencial” to substitute it)
Let’s them grow! applacate them, give them what they want…
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it” NO THANKS!
Mr. F.Man
Catalunya is.. Catalunya….
Is Crimea Ukraina..???
Spain… is a State of States as defined in the LEGAL constitution of the Republic in 1931.
If you want to talk of this I will suggest you to read some history book about the origin of Catalunya, Castilla, Aragon, Euzkal Erria, etc…
About anexing other lands: please post from where you get this information: who wants anex what..???
Other thing is that we call this countries Paisos Catalans, as they speak Catalan and we have a common past.
But that’s another thing.
Again you call us Nazional Socialist.
Do you know what is the Nazism…???
Did you seen images of the demonstrations last days in Catalunya..??
but also in Madrid, etc…???
In one hand the Unionist: Partido Popular and Ciudadanos, the 2 right and ultraright partys, minority in Catalunya, Majority in the goverment of Spain, in front of the demonstrations ,among them Hogar Social (NAZI with it’s symbology, skinheads,the eagle in the flag…) also members of la Legion (the army created for Franco in north Africa colonies) singing all togheter Cara al Sol, the Fascist hymn.
In the other hand, the demonstration FOR democracy, independence, federalism, renewed autonomy, but mainly REPUBLIC… as there are many diferent sensitivities and points of view which joint:
PDCAT: the party of the president of la Gdeneralitat Puigdemont (this a center-right party created from the old party Convergencia i Unió, plenty of corruption, they are Catalanist but more in this to try to politicaly survive, in minority in the goverment which is a coalition)
ERC the Republican Left, the only Republican party of all Spain, the biggest party in Catalunya,Independist.
CUP the Ultra left Anticapitalist which is a joint of diferent sensivities: trostkyst,libertarian, etc… they have the 8-10% votes . Independist
En Comu Podem, from which Ada Colau is the Major of Barcelona, is the party created from the OCUPY THE STREETS, from 15m, with an incredible popular support. Federalist.Antiglobal.
Ah The Libertarian movement, which is very strong: CNT, CGT… supporting also the referendum…..
The PSC is the Catalan branch of the Spanish PSOE, with diferences in between them, in Madrid they are giving support to Partido Popular, in Catalunya they are equidistant in between the 2 concepts.
If you count the real power of all this forces you will find that 80% of the catalan and non catalan people who lives here are clearly left oriented and wants another kind of relation with Spain.
20% are pure Españolist.
Inform you mr. F.Man before to talk.
This is not a bear bar conversation, it’s something very serious, by now 844 people fisically wounded, some others are starting to go to the jail.. and in the day by day we don’t know what is gonna come next….
The more important and fast development of the independentism i
cames from the fact that in 2005, being president of the Generalitat Pascual Maragall (in a goverment of the left: PSC,ERC IU (comunist)) were aproved in the Catalan Parlament some points to renew the Spanish constitution, to equal for instance to some points as the Andalucia or Euzkal Erria had. Aproved here by the MAJORITY of the parlamanet, sent to Madrid and APROVED there in LAS CORTES, the Spanish Parlament, and then submit to referendum and APROVED too… b ut then declared unconstitutional by the Tribunal Constitucional, which members are some of them members of Fuerza nueva, the ULTRARIGHT party of the Franco kids.
Ah… you should know that the Partido Popular is the renewed party that comes from Alianza Popular, funded by Fraga Iribarne, very good friend and Minister with Franco.
They designed the constitution. Imposed a Monarchy with the family of the Borbones. With the basic idea of a centralized Spain as Franco defended. The Spanish UltraNacionalism that claims the others are the nacionalist against Spain.
Do you know that we have Franco in the coins and money of Spain by the Grace of God until 1992…???
Do you know that this goverment is founding the oficial web of Franco Fundation…?? Did you imagine this in germany with a Hitler Fundation…?? Paid with public money..
Do you know that Spain is plenty of monuments and statues of Franco and that WE can not still recover the bodys of the thousands that still buried in anonimous mass graves in the borders of our roads..???
Is not abouy the past, it is a bout the present.
Who are the NAZI mr F.Man…??
by the way,
constitution was voted in 1978, before that many still in the exile returned to the country…..
Only people now up to 58 years old had voted.
I voted no.
Also, when the referendum to belong or not to NATO: in Catalunya wins the NO to NATO, but, as we are not ¨with¨ Spain but ¨under¨ it’s rules….
My mother survived to the terrible bombing of Barcelona in 1937 (by the Nazi – Fascist,, Legion Condor, etc…) part of her family dies there, she very bad wounded, after that ¨wellcomed¨in the concentration camps for the Republican people.. she manage to survive (would be very interesting if you read the book Els Catalans als Camps Nazis by Montserrat Roig, one of the survivers… very well documentated)
After she come to Spain…. welll it’s a long history….
I will tell her that you consider that she’s a Nazi.
Because she’s catalan, catalanist and pro-independence of Catalunya.