Comment by Dioxine
In the immortal words of Jim Morrison “riders on the storm, into this house we’re born, into this world we’re thrown…” But what causes the appalling scarcity of intelligent discourse? I blame the lack of education, coupled with delusions about one’s place in the world… The West has created a world where everyone is supposed to feel like a millionaire, just temporarily down on luck. A super-predator looking at it from a different angle. Predators have little to discuss with their victims (if one considers himself a prime predator, they cannot escape considering everyone else a potential prey).
It would be helpful to have those who put their faith in “intolerant” religions say what they think about Voltaire’s words. I think his case for tolerance rests on fallibilism. Many adherents of “intolerant” religions are remarkably tolerant of those who disagree with them, but can that be other than a tolerance that is in actuality polite contempt for poor souls who know not?
New Orders in from Israel: https://www.rt.com/usa/329240-us-sanctions-iran-ballistic/
America’s Zionist overlords demand that the US authorities continue to make decisions that go against the interests of America. Who are we fooling when we pretend that The US exerts an control over Israel? Isn’t it about time we accept that it is the opposite that is true?????
..and by the way the Obama Administration decided to increase the amount of yearly Military Assistance Israel to a whopping $5 billion up from $3billion to compensate for arriving at a deal with Tehran with the JCPOA:
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/11/09/us-security-aid-to-israel-may-increase-to-5-billion-a-year.html
That works out to approximately $14 per day for Israel. All that while Congress cut money intended for lunch in American schools…….
My bad – that is $14 million daily. To my knowledge, no other relationship yielded/yield this amount of ”tribute” in the annals of human history! Please inform me If you know of any that surpasses this. But you have to bear in mind that this is being done voluntarily by the elected representatives of the country paying the tribute.
And do you guys notice that the US presidential candidates all speak with one voice on the topic of Israel? Although at times they try to out grovel each other with who is more obsequious. There was a skit done for Saturday Night live in2013 during the Chuck Hagel’s Senate Confirmation Hearing in it Senator John McCain challenges Chuck Hagel to agree to fellate a donkey on the orders of Benjamin Netanyahu for the security of Israel – the skit was never aired because Abe Foxman ant other Israeli agents had it blocked:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b13_1360784725&comments=1
Go figure!!!
Israel/US. Israel controlling US? Anglo/zionists – a term I first run onto at this site. Punch in Murdoch + Israel to see the face of anglo/Zionism.
Murdoch, an Australian citizen, first generation Australian of British parents who became an American citizen.
The power of Israel is in US “Anglo-Zionists”.
breaking news–I smell a horse named Mr. Ed here working some kind of backroom sabotage.
US imposes sanctions on Iran for ballistic missile program
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2016/01/17/446175/US-imposes-new-sanctions-Iran/
Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:16PM
The US Department of the Treasury says it has imposed new sanctions on Iran for its ballistic missile program.
The Treasury Department made the announcement in a statement issued on Sunday, only a day after sanctions targeting Iran’s nuclear energy program were lifted.
The statement said five Iranian citizens and a network of companies based in the United Arab Emirates and China were added to a US blacklist.
The network “obfuscated the end user of sensitive goods for missile proliferation by using front companies in third countries to deceive foreign suppliers,” the statement said, adding that the five people had “worked to procure ballistic missile components for Iran.”
—————————————-
I suspect it has to do with how well those Iran missiles are working in the Yemen south front war.
I hate to admit it, but he really deserves a 4H Club blue ribbon for stringing along the Iranians so long.
https://darrellcreswell.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/mr-ed.jpg
a forum comment (not this one):
n German there is a word ” rumeiern “,
meaning something like a shilly-shally
tactic.
Iran let them tow on the nose with sanctions
like a dancing-bear
by their arch-enemies, what a foolish thing.
A headline even I could have predicted.
http://www.todayszaman.com/business_presidential-expenditures-up-nearly-100-pct-in-2015_409857.html
Expenses racked up by the Presidency jumped nearly 100 percent from TL 244 million in 2014 to TL 471 million last year, according to figures from the Finance Ministry released on Thursday.
Expenses ranged from TL 100-180 million annually between 2010 and 2013, when Abdullah Gül was president, but have surged during Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s presidency.
The annual presidential budget, which was TL 199.5 million in the last year of Gül’s presidency, was upped to TL 397 million in the first year of Erdoğan’s ascension to the top spot. However, even the approximate 100 percent increase has not been enough to finance the costs of Erdoğan’s expenses in 2015, as the Finance Ministry has had to allocate an extra TL 148.9 million to the presidential coffers, taking the total budget to TL 545.9 million. This figure is higher than the previous presidency’s envisaged budget for 2017, which was TL 464 million.
Your god is a lie. It’s part of an ancient patriarchal control scheme.
You were born bad, you must submit to our consensus and not call our gods, tools of Satan, although they obviously are.
A long time Buddhist and that’s what I think. Tolerate that.
Like many other concepts, ‘tolerance’ has changed its initial meaning. In general (mostly in Western parlance) verbal notions became “reified” (the participial forms of verbs became “substantivized”, “things”).
Tolerantia comes from the latin verb tolero, tolerare, toleravi, toleratum = to carry, to bear. “Tolerantia” describes an action, not a thing that you posses or not.
More on its etymology on Wiki (for convenience):
“From Proto-Indo-European *telh₂- (“to bear, carry”). Compare Ancient Greek τλάντος (tlántos, “bearing, suffering”), τολμέω (tolméō, “to carry, bear”), τελαμών (telamṓn, “broad strap for bearing something”), Ἄτλας (Átlas, “the ‘Bearer’ of Heaven”), Lithuanian tiltas (“bridge”), Sanskrit तुला (tulā, “balance”), तुलयति (tulayati, “lifts up, weighs”), Latin tollō (“to bear, support”), tulī (“I bore”), lātus (“borne”), tellūs (“bearing earth”), Old English þolian (“to endure”) (English thole), Old Armenian թողում (tʿołum, “I allow”).
Tolerance, therefore, means the capacity to carry a burden until you can’t carry it anymore if it becomes too heavy or you have to carry it for too long. It measures the limits which permit a system to withstand external pressures without breaking apart. It is a physical notion (like “the physical distance or space (tolerance), as in a truck (lorry), train or boat under a bridge as well as a train in a tunnel (see structure gauge and loading gauge, etc)”.
Applied to social systems, “Tolerantia” was used to “denote the self-restraint of a civil power in the face of outsiders, like infidels, Muslims or Jews.” The civil authorities could tolerate deviant practices as long as they did not threaten the dominant practice (which was based on a system of belief). Jews and Muslims were strangers to the system (Christian society). Actually they had a totally different belief system, recognized at variance with Christianity, but “tolerable” to a certain extent. Their status was determined by the amount of threat they could represent and an accommodation was always possible, defined by privileges (the status of the Jews in Christianity was defined in terms of the Law of the Roman Empire, inherited by all the laws of the “Middle Ages”) or treatises (the case of Islam). But every time the threat became significant defence measures were taken. Christianity is neither “tolerant” nor “intolerant” per se.
‘Heresy’ is another term used in a different meaning than its initial one. Heresy is not “any provocative belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs” and “heretic a proponent of such claims or beliefs”.
“The term heresy is from Greek originally meant “choice” or “thing chosen”, taking, choice, course of action, election, decision; this term (plural, haireseis) refers to any group of people perceived to have a clear doctrinal identity; hairesis is a group with fairly coherent and distinctive theories, with an acknowledged founder (hairesi-arches) and leaders who articulate their rejection of rival theories through theoretically founded polemics; Diodorus of Sicily complains that the Hellenes, unlike the Orientals, always introduce doctrinal innovations in important matters, thus ‘founding new haireseis’ (2.29.6); in the II century A.D., hairesis had become a standard term for philosophical school; the early Christians use of hairesis to refer to a body of false beliefs (but whose origin are in the ratiocinations of the philosophical schools).
Heresy is a conscious (and provocative, it’s true) distortion from within the system, pretending to represent a “truer” form of the system and attacking the formal custodians of it as the the ones who skewed the system for personal gain or power. Heresy is a deception, a revolutionary technic, deliberately distorting the meaning of the basic notions on which the system is built, but aiming to impose their particular meaning as the norm (and of course becoming the administrators of the new norm). It undermines the very foundations of a system and it is more insidious, able to hide for a longer time. But it is always “provocative”, aggressive and intolerant, because unconcearned with Truth (which is not “tolerant”!). That’s why heresy was mostly described in medical terms: “disease”, “plague”, “sickness”, virtually curable by exposing it to Truth. Only the “incurable” were “excised” from the society.
You describe those coming up with new schools of thought as unconcerned with truth, insidious, and concerned only with destroying the existing order. They, as you point out, say that the custodians of the existing system are only concerned with personal gain and power.
But this brings me to what I see as the nub of it: Who gets to decide who’s right?
Consider. In terms of the current world system of political economy, nearly all of us here are heretics who denounce the current custodians of the system as concerned only with personal gain and power, and both the system of power and the systems of thought underpinning it as deeply wrong. We wish to undermine the very foundations of this system. So are we unconcerned with truth, do we represent a “disease”, “plague” or “sickness”? No doubt Samantha Power would say so, but I am not willing to concede such a claim.
And frankly, in this world it’s generally the case that if you have a dominant system whether political, religious or whatever, if you look closely you will find that there are people at the top of it and they run it for the sake of their personal wealth and/or power, with any more official or formal goals and values of the system subordinate to that at best. Some particular “heresies”, in whichever sense, may be misguided, or motivated largely by the attempt of someone to simply change who gets to be at the top of the pyramid. But overall I feel that the general practice of coming up with, and articulating and systematizing into a new school of thought, alternative ideas at odds with dominant accepted structures, is on average a Good Thing.
And once a system has become ‘closed’ then the heretics must be excluded.
This happens on blogs — even perhaps this one.
@ Who gets to decide who’s right?
Now, all the heresies we are discussing emerged in a Christian setting. You are asking who decided that the Christian worldview was right. The answer is in the Christian history domain and not in any analogous but lateral one.
The Truth of Christianity was decided by the revealed Truth, the Logos who “became flesh and made his dwelling among men. The Apostles “have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth”.
As St Peter put it clearly: ” For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.*
19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”
*at the Transfiguration when Jesus revealed his glory to Peter, John and James, who heard the same voice heard by John the Baptist proclaiming that Jesus is the beloved Son, at the Epiphany.
The Apostles saw the Resurrected Christ and touched Him. And they transmitted this Truth to the bishops they appointed, who in turn wrote it down. So, yes the Church decides who’s right. You may not like it, but you can’t change it.
That may be true for we Christians. But 3/4 of the World isn’t Christian.So why would they be concerned with or accept what we consider truth because of your argument. I would argue that there are human ideas that pre-date Christianity about truth. That most societies in the World have common ideas of right and wrong. And those ideas are based on the peoples forming them being human. Not because of one or the other religion,but their shared humanity instead.As an example closer to the West. The Roman Empire for centuries practiced a form of tolerance of the worship of different Gods.And at the beginning practiced tolerance of Christianity as well. The Muslims practiced tolerance of different faiths for much longer periods than Christians did. An example of that is that there are many ancient Christian communities throughout the majority Muslim MENA nations. And yet (not counting when the Turks conquered a land in Europe),in Europe until recently there were no Muslim communities in Europe.
DOH so what kind of Christian are you?
US invaded the Philippines to bring them heathen Catholics Christianity..
The Inquisition of twisting off arms from the knights Templars because those were not Catholics..
The British made their own Christians different than the Irish Christians..
Younger brother of an old friend of mine is going around teaching the gospel according to Australian Christians which supposedly different than mine or his Christianity.. And his Christianity is better…
and then we come to the IS Christians.. who are basically fundamentalist americans who don’t consider others as Christians at all.. The ones who want to bring on the apocalypse and have jesus come and take them to paradise with all those virgins. Heck within Catholics there are lesser and greater Christians. The more money you bring in the higher and better Christians… Those lesser Catholics have less funds allocated to them. They dont have that toll free number to god..
Muslims have their own cults just like that.. Even though we know the 2 main sects, there are many who came into being because they did a job for one or the other.. Now they are not considered as one of the main sects but basically untouchables.
So when you talk about our religion, that might not be as large as we think it is. Although I wonder if the millions of Hindu deities are separate or not, I know their main sects are all supposedly the same religion but divided based on their profession but their foreign policy depends on which of those sects are in power. I never had the courage to ask if they did not go to see ganesh today and went to see visnu instead. Like how different catholic churches are devoted to different saints and apostles.
So, are you saying then that any modern organization directly descended from those first bishops is still, like, divinely charged with Jesusness at the nth remove, or at least all its modern bishops, cardinals and whatnot are, and so anyone arguing is inherently wrong? And that includes all those bishops who busily helped cover for child molesters?
Shyeah right. They’re criminals, not infallible founts of doctrine. And many of the top dudes going back centuries were criminals–vicious, avaricious men with little interest in doctrine except insofar as it furthered their personal interests. And the same is almost certainly true, although this claim may pain the Saker, of many of the top dudes in the Orthodox church during those same centuries. Not to jump exclusively on Christian hierarchies–near as I can make out, for all their oh-so-serene reputation, it was true of many of the bosses among the Buddhist theocracy in Tibet back in the day, too. And of course it was uncontroversially true among secular aristocracies throughout history.
Hierarchy breeds villainy; the stricter the hierarchy, the worse it does so. Those at the top abuse them to get more wealth and power, those lower down toady or are destroyed. As to Jesus, it seems to me he never said to anyone “Put together a multilevel organization where everyone obeys some and gives orders to others”. To the contrary, not only was his concern always with the least and lowliest, but I’d say he identified them as being at least as close to God as anyone else. Modern church hierarchies look to me a lot more like the hypocrites and the money-changers than they do like anything that happened near Jesus’ time. And you want to tell me anyone who dissents is a disease?
I think your position is a horrible one.
Hard to fault your logic. Hierarchy breeds command and control and that tends to support cultures of abuse and hypocrisy. And these cultures of mendacity certainly do not inhibit villainy.
And in respect to arguments that some “St P, Q, R or S…” said so then makes it true — clearly the fog of blind faith obscures the ‘fact’ that all that can be said is that some people have written down claims that other people allege occurred or was reported by other people to have occurred etc.
Then we have the issue of producing the archaeological evidence and the bodies to support these claims or explaining the absence of any. ‘IT’ went up into the clouds; to the heavens (wherever that is); took off to Kashmir to escape the crowds; entered another dimension; etc, etc.
Ok, if that is the psychological need for the narrative to work then fine. But for those grounded on evidence-based policy as a priority (as distinct from faith-based policy) then there is some serious work to be done to separate out fact from fiction and Santa Clause from parcel delivery.
It took me years to understand why the cooked chicken’s tail was called the “Parson’s nose” — could it have something in common to do with what came out of the opening below them?
This attitude is as old as Christianity itself. Paul was warning his disciple Timothy:
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.…
But even the Christ was telling:
“And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”
But even the Prophets (Zechariah 7:11):
“Do not oppress the widow or the orphan, the stranger or the poor; and do not devise evil in your hearts against one another.’ “But they refused to pay attention and turned a stubborn shoulder and stopped their ears from hearing. “They made their hearts like flint so that they could not hear the law and the words which the Lord of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former prophets; therefore great wrath came from the Lord of hosts.”
“The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” (Psalm 14, 1)
So, you are not the only clever un, dude.
““The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” (Psalm 14, 1)”
The existence of God (or Allah or gods) is not the issue.
The big problem is whether that (or these) deities were bounders /a-small-reminder-and-clarification-i-am-an-alien-really/#comment-198263
wtf can nobody try to directly address the simple point?
Think like an alien (just for a while).
The problem is the maniacal determination to listen only to the negative.
The problem is that (in light of a so called omnibenevolent, omniscient & omnipotent deity) evil exits.
I’ll listen to any positive – but the maniacal determination not to explain the conundrum must first be clearly set aside.
Would you be very offended if I recommend you to search more in that domain (more than Internet posts, I mean)? Books of philosophy, perhaps?
Not really sure what you mean.
The question is not compicated – it is contained in a single sentence.
Anyway, if you don’t fancy providing a simple explanation then here’s some further description.
Your God already knew what Eve was going to do before she done it. This deity placed a temptation that knew was to be taken up. This deity already knew that it would then take a hissy fit which would entailed tossing the vast majority of it’s own creation into hellfire.
Since at least omnibenevolence can be struck from this deities self-charater description the conclusion can only be that this deity has a severe
persondeitality disorder.2nd int’l monitor group reiterates what that first one’s report said days ago.
Amnesty International says new evidence confirms that Saudi Arabia has used US-manufactured cluster munitions in a recent airstrike on the Yemeni capital of Sana’a.
On Friday, the London-based rights group said Riyadh dropped the internationally banned cluster munitions on Sana’a in an air attack on January 6, which killed a 16-year-old boy and injured at least six other civilians.
The organization also said the attack scattered submunitions in at least four different residential neighborhoods.
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2016/01/16/446015/Amnesty-International-Saudi-Arabia-Yemen-Cluster-bombs-Hajjah-/
OT but interesting:
There may be some problems (hopefully) with the empires dream of more war. The home front Presidential charade isn’t running (so far) like they planned. Clinton seems to be having problems. I just saw two quick polls about the Democratic debate. One was FOX News (so right-wing) with 93% saying Sanders won it. The other was a Time poll where 83% said Sanders won it. Unlike Clinton ,in the debate Sanders said the US getting more involved in Syria was a horrible idea. I’m not “stumping” for Sanders. But anything that upsets the empire’s plans could be a good thing. Trying to fix their agenda might take some of their time up. Time they could be using to foster more evil with instead.
Do they have any choice but war?
The USA can never pay back their debt and have dismissed the idea anyway. As long as there is the US petrodollar and the dollar as reserve currency the trillions in debt can continue -all in pursuit of hegemony, which if achieved would tidily solve the debt problem.
But the petrodollar’s foundations are currently incrementally cracking, so there is a high risk that, rather than admit failure, the ‘mainfestly destined’ exceptionalist HegeCons may go for broke.
If all else fails the HegeCon deity chanellers have their Rapture.
I am told by a military history aficionado that all empires fail eventually and have done so throughout history. While that was not a revelation, this was:
“the indicator for a failing empire is when it recalls all its foreign outposts, assets and personnel”
It happens every time apparently. I look forward to the USA shutting down its adventurism in 150 countries.
”tolerate, give everyone else the rights you claim for you”.
Take this magnificent thoughts one or two steps backwards… and you have indifference in society. Take it one step forward to love : and you have Francis of Assis and Md Therese of Calcutta
The problem with the quote in the picture above is that not all people are equal, which is what the quote assumes. For example, felons have no right to vote. Felons are demonstrably unequal to non-felons in that felons are dangerous criminals. People are not equal and people who are not equal should not be treated equally. This was the common-sense understanding that ruled humanity for thousands of years before the delusional insanity of the French Revolution and all the despicable political developments that came out of it.
Say what ???
It is thinking like that that gives us the fascists in Ukraine. Where those “Moskals” aren’t “equal” to pure “Ukrainians”. And the “exceptional” American empire. Who are “certainly” more equal than mere,well “anybody else”. And the the Zionist beliefs that they are a “chosen people” more equal,also than anybody else. And the the nazis, for whom Germans were “obviously” the master race.
“massacres, kidnappings and all sorts of illicit behaviour by the Mormon sect. What’s more, those responsible were never punished; the sect was integrated into the statehood and allowed to go on.”
I’m not sure why the author reaches so far back in history when there are better examples religious terrorism from as recently as the 1970s. All through the 1960’s and 1970’s left-wing terrorist groups – motivated by the religion of Marxism and “anti-racism” [sic] – ran wild in America committing terrorism, bombings and racially-motivated hate crimes. None of the leftist/socialist religious terrorist organizations were ever seriously brought to justice and many of their members were absorbed into the leftist US establishment. One socialist democrat named Jim Jones murdered more black people in a single afternoon than the KKK murdered in its entire existence, and Jim Jones’ massacre was motivated by the left-wing supernatural religion of “Egalitarianism”.
Wrong. Jim Jones was a mind controlled intelligence asset used in an intelligence experiment. Do some research on his background, psychological profile, connections to intel agencies and the whole Jonestown debacle.
I think you seriously underestimate the early KKK and other allied right-wing terror groups in the US. Just because the US doesn’t like to talk about them doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. In the US South alone there are records of 4,000 Blacks lynched. And that doesn’t include the many lynchings of people in the other areas. The West seeing large numbers of Mexicans and Chinese being more numerous victims than Blacks. And at times Italians (like in Louisiana),and other immigrants were also lynched by White mobs. Racism has always been the “original sin” in the US. And though things today are a “night and day” difference from the worse days. It still is not a “thing of the past”.
“racism” (i.e., preferring to be around people that look, act and speak like oneself) is not a sin at all, let alone an “original sin”. “Just because the US doesn’t like to talk about [right-wing terror groups]” – what US do you live in? The ONLY non-muslim “terror” groups that are EVER discussed in Americ are the alleged “right-wing” ones. It is the left-wing terrorist groups which it is verboten to speak of in the hard-core cultural leftist US. “In the US South alone there are records of 4,000 Blacks lynched.” No, there are records of about 4,000 PEOPLE being lynched, black, white, Catholic, Italian, etc. And you forget that many of those lynchings were in fact lawful proceedings to dispose of rapists and murderers.
removed inappropriate sentence — mod-hs
How can any lynching be legal -by the very definition of the word??
“To punish (a person) without legal process or authority, especially by hanging, for a perceived offense or as an act of bigotry”
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/lynch
First,racism is not as you referred to it. This is racism:
“Racism is defined as the predication of decisions and policies on considerations of race for the purpose of subordinating a racial group and maintaining control over that group. Organizations and institutions that practice racism discriminate against and marginalize a class of people who share a common racial designation. Racism can more narrowly refer to a system of oppression, such as institutional racism, that is based on the idea of one race’s superiority over other races. The term “racism” is usually applied to the dominant group in such a society, because that group typically has the means to oppress others. However, “racism” can be equally applied to any individual or group(s), regardless of social status or dominance. By definition, one who practices racism is known as a racist.”
Second,the records in the 12 Southern states are for 4,000 “Black” people lynched. Not for just “people”. If we include all people lynched,mostly Mexicans,Chinese,poor European immigrants,a Jew or two,(do you notice a pattern there Ezra,I do) then we would have a much higher figure.
And third,as SanctuaryOne talked about, “lynching”, itself defines an illegal act.The idea of a howling mob dragging people to trees, or poles,beating them along the way,stringing them up with ropes.And in some cases then setting their bodies on fire. Is about as far from “legal” as I can imagine. I suspect next you’ll be saying the Ukrainians in Odessa “legally” burned the people in the Odessa Massacre. Which was a pretty close parallel to lynching in the US South BTW. And no,Americans don’t like to talk about it. There is almost no conversation (outside of with black people) about that time. And the so-called “leftest” terror groups you talked about pale in numbers or importance to the right-wing ones. So,yes,they aren’t talked about much. The SDS (amateur do-nothings) and the SLF who were just freaks with zero support are the only ones I can even think off.Neither of them had anywhere near the influence in the US of the right-wing terror groups.