watching this video to the end is interesting: these idiots are both the most oppressive and the most oppressed people on the planet — the most degraded and the most degrading. as marx said: “everything is pregnant with its contrary.”
Soldiers have been getting drunk, fighting and seeing prostitutes since the dawn of time. Nothing new here. This is pretty tame compared to the Russian Army, where recruits are often beaten to death, made virtual slaves of the senior soldiers and even forced into prostitution themselves. Hazing in the 82d Airborne was actually a lot milder than a typical college fraternity, and there was very little infighting except for a few guys who were mentally unbalanced. We mostly got along very well.
The real scandal here is that a bunch of guys lost their careers over seeing prostitutes, which is pretty much what everyone in Washington does. Indeed, they are a bunch of whores themselves. The hypocrisy is staggering. I would have disciplined the guy who refused to pay the prostitute, and made him pay her $5,000 in compensation or lose his job, but I would have stood behind the others. I would have brought charges against the thugs who threw the girl out of the car, though. That wouldn’t have been forgiven.
I wish more attention would be paid to the thousands of Marines and their families who got sick or died because the “Always Faithful” Marine Corps leadership covered up the existence of toxic carcinogens in the water at Camp LeJeune.
@Sean:Soldiers have been getting drunk, fighting and seeing prostitutes since the dawn of time. Nothing new here.
I very much disagree here. In fact, that kind of behavior is incompatible with good discipline and a surefire sign that the unit in question is not combat capable (at least not in an effective way).
This is pretty tame compared to the Russian Army, where recruits are often beaten to death, made virtual slaves of the senior soldiers and even forced into prostitution themselves.
You are talking about the *Soviet* Army here. Before the revolution, during WWI, the Imperial Russian army had both the harshest internal discipline and the lowest amount of crimes committed against civilians and inside the army of any of the armies which took part in WWI. BTW – the German Nazi military in WWII had excellent discipline both inside and towards civilians, not because of the inherent decency or kindness of German officers, but because that kind of crap disrupts discipline…
Comparing the US Marines to the Soviet military is really a damning comparison and proves little. I fully agree that everything you see in this video could have been filmed in a Soviet unit, but only is a low quality one. Key combat units (Airborne, Special Forces, Naval Infantry, Border Guards, etc.) could not have afforded this kind of nonsense for, again, the simple fact that this disrupts discipline and that, in turn, makes the unit non combat capable. Sure, they can shoot civilians or burn down villages, but such units cannot take on a real fighting force.
As far as I know, no or very little of such hazing took place in the US forces in Korea, and the US military performed very well. In Vietnam it became a common occurrence, and the US got comprehensively defeated. The discipline of the US forces in Europe in the 1970 was also very low, then it slowly improved for a while, until the 2nd war on Iraq were all hell broke loose again.
The fact is that a military like the Soviet one or the US one nowadays can only win by pilling on numbers of soldiers and firepower, but that as a combat force its real capabilities are rather low.
The real scandal here is that a bunch of guys lost their careers over seeing prostitutes, which is pretty much what everyone in Washington does.
Agreed
I wish more attention would be paid to the thousands of Marines and their families who got sick or died because the “Always Faithful” Marine Corps leadership covered up the existence of toxic carcinogens in the water at Camp LeJeune.
Agreed again.
BTW – corruption, immorality and poor health were also common in the Soviet military. All in all, the US armed forces are *very* much like the Soviet military of the 1980s..
“You are talking about the *Soviet* Army here.” No, he was talking about post-Soviet Russian army. While I don’t have any inside information, the kind of abuses Sean quotes seem to be common in non-elite units, if we are to believe the press (not only foreign one, but the Russian, is also full of these reports). While it seems the situation improved in the last years (the article Sean quotes is from 2007), I think it is still far from ideal.
@Carlo:No, he was talking about post-Soviet Russian army.
Then he was talking about something which never really existed. Let me explain:
From 1991 to 2000 Russia did not have a Russian Army, but only “units of the former Soviet Army”. These disparate units lacked a single common “face”, no single corporate culture, no single ethos. What does a construction battalion, a artillery cadre division, a separate paratroop regiment and a communication group have in common? Nothing.
Beginning with 2000, there was a real attempted made at (re-)reacting a Russian armed forces, and a full decade later this process has yielded some very real results, some good some bad, but much is still left to change. This is a dynamic process which will take at least another decade. However, concerning discipline, hazing, thuggery and crime, some absolutely crucial steps have been now implemented:
1) For all practical purpose only volunteers are sent into combat. These are mostly conscripts, but not all. Thus the huge bloated mass of semi-literate soldiers is now being dramatically reduced. 2) Russian solders are now using all their time to train for their missions. Tasks such as cleaning, cooking, washing, etc are now done by hired contractors. Doing such task for the longer serving soldiers (деды) by the new recruits (салаги) was a key element of Soviet ear hazing. 3) The NCO corps is being strongly expanded. One of the main functions of hazing was to compensate for a lack of NCO by using long(er) serving soldiers like “unofficial NCOs”. And, as you can easily imagine, an “unofficial drill sergeant” is nothing else then a abusive thug. 4) Cadre divisions have been completely eliminated. These “phantom” divisions were amongst the worst offenders in terms of crime and hazing if only because they were a weid mix between a no man’s land and a officer village. 5) Last but not least, cases of abuse are now made VERY public and the authorities are now forced to investigate them, whether they like it or not. Yes, the press is full of these reports, but that is a good sign, not at all a bad one.
For all these reasons to speak of a “post-Soviet Russian Army” is both conceptually wrong and its aiming at a rapidly moving target.
Lastly, I would argue that abuses in the Soviet armed forces were no worse and no better than the abuses in the rest of Soviet society. This is also true nowadays. In 1991 the Soviet regime was replaced by an arguably even worse Judeo-capitalistic thugocracy which lastest a full decade, and then an ex-KGB guy and his friend from Gazprom managed to simultaneously a) begin a massive “clean house” operation b) restore the state and its economy c) reform the armed forces d) win 2 wars.
For all these reasons I submit that only in another 10 years or so will we have a “Russian army” which we will be able to judge on its merits (or lack thereof).
Read the article and others like it. These abuses are occurring in the modern Russian Army. My understanding is the brutality against recruits is worse in the elite units. There is nothing more immoral than killing people in a war, so drunkenness and seeing prostitutes doesn’t add too much to that one way or the other. I can’t think of too many military units throughout history that consisted of teatotaling virgins.
The use of intoxicants and prostitutes is common throughout history to maintain morale and fighting spirit among soldiers. Alexander the Great’s army was hopped up on opium, the Roman legions usually had their camp followers in tow, British seamen were fed a steady diet of rum and grog. The Greeks encouraged homosexuality among their warriors with the Sacred Band of Thebes being the classic example of gay soldiers who fought to the death.
I don’t think you do the Soviet Army credit. By the end of WWII they were masters at urban warfare and blitzkrieg tactics and were more than a match for the Germans. The idea they needed overwhelming numbers to win is a myth of German officers who couldn’t admit to being beaten fair and square by the Russians. Russian units may have enjoyed numerical superiority in many battles, but they were also on the offensive against damned good soldiers fighting from defensive positions, which negated the odds considerably.
The American military went downhill commensurate with its attempts to stifle alcohol and drug use and enforce martinet “discipline” in the ranks. Soldiers hate that shit and rebel against it every chance they get. Soldiers fighting each other is normal and even leads to unit cohesion as tensions are blown off and the men gain greater respect for each other. See the typical WW II movie like Sands of Iwo Jima where there is always a scene of soldiers fighting and becoming good friends afterwards. Sadistic bullying and abuse is another matter altogether, and is really just a mirror of the harsh “discipline” imposed from without.
American soldiers fought well in Vietnam and typically won most of their battles. But they wised up real quick and decided the war wasn’t worth dying for and often mutinied against their officers. The Russian and French armies did the same thing in WW I and rightfully so. The men who stopped the Germans in the trenches of Verdun weren’t lousy soldiers nor do I imagine they were church ladies who avoided women and drink. They were men who had the balls not only to fight but to do something even harder—refuse to fight. I wish the US military would follow their example and mutiny in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I do. Everyday actually. I follow Russian military news very closely, I assure you. I also know of a lot of folks who served in the Soviet, post-Soviet and even the slowly emerging Russian army.
These abuses are occurring in the modern Russian Army.
See my reply to Carlo above
My understanding is the brutality against recruits is worse in the elite units
That I categorically disagree with. If only because a) the very different type of person serving in them b) the type of control over them c) the fact that they are all now de-facto either volunteers or professionals and d) because they are overseen by officers who have a HUGE career interest at *not* allowing discipline issues to occur in these units.
As for the performance of the Soviet military in WWII, this is a complex issue which I cannot discuss here. I will just say that Soviet forces were superior on the Operational level while the Germans were usually superior tactically. Yes, the Soviets did use numbers, but one could make the case that they had no other option once the Germans were in the suburbs of Moscow. For specifics, look at any of the many books written by Col (Ret) David Glantz, head of the ex-Soviet Military Army Studies later renamed Foreign Military Studies Office at the Training and Doctrine Command of the US Army, Forth Leavenworth (Glantz then relocated to Carlyle, PA).
watching this video to the end is interesting: these idiots are both the most oppressive and the most oppressed people on the planet — the most degraded and the most degrading. as marx said: “everything is pregnant with its contrary.”
Soldiers have been getting drunk, fighting and seeing prostitutes since the dawn of time. Nothing new here. This is pretty tame compared to the Russian Army, where recruits are often beaten to death, made virtual slaves of the senior soldiers and even forced into prostitution themselves. Hazing in the 82d Airborne was actually a lot milder than a typical college fraternity, and there was very little infighting except for a few guys who were mentally unbalanced. We mostly got along very well.
http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=20346
The real scandal here is that a bunch of guys lost their careers over seeing prostitutes, which is pretty much what everyone in Washington does. Indeed, they are a bunch of whores themselves. The hypocrisy is staggering. I would have disciplined the guy who refused to pay the prostitute, and made him pay her $5,000 in compensation or lose his job, but I would have stood behind the others. I would have brought charges against the thugs who threw the girl out of the car, though. That wouldn’t have been forgiven.
I wish more attention would be paid to the thousands of Marines and their families who got sick or died because the “Always Faithful” Marine Corps leadership covered up the existence of toxic carcinogens in the water at Camp LeJeune.
http://www.yourlawyer.com/topics/overview/Camp-Lejeune-Benzene-Poisoning
@Sean:Soldiers have been getting drunk, fighting and seeing prostitutes since the dawn of time. Nothing new here.
I very much disagree here. In fact, that kind of behavior is incompatible with good discipline and a surefire sign that the unit in question is not combat capable (at least not in an effective way).
This is pretty tame compared to the Russian Army, where recruits are often beaten to death, made virtual slaves of the senior soldiers and even forced into prostitution themselves.
You are talking about the *Soviet* Army here. Before the revolution, during WWI, the Imperial Russian army had both the harshest internal discipline and the lowest amount of crimes committed against civilians and inside the army of any of the armies which took part in WWI. BTW – the German Nazi military in WWII had excellent discipline both inside and towards civilians, not because of the inherent decency or kindness of German officers, but because that kind of crap disrupts discipline…
Comparing the US Marines to the Soviet military is really a damning comparison and proves little. I fully agree that everything you see in this video could have been filmed in a Soviet unit, but only is a low quality one. Key combat units (Airborne, Special Forces, Naval Infantry, Border Guards, etc.) could not have afforded this kind of nonsense for, again, the simple fact that this disrupts discipline and that, in turn, makes the unit non combat capable. Sure, they can shoot civilians or burn down villages, but such units cannot take on a real fighting force.
As far as I know, no or very little of such hazing took place in the US forces in Korea, and the US military performed very well. In Vietnam it became a common occurrence, and the US got comprehensively defeated. The discipline of the US forces in Europe in the 1970 was also very low, then it slowly improved for a while, until the 2nd war on Iraq were all hell broke loose again.
The fact is that a military like the Soviet one or the US one nowadays can only win by pilling on numbers of soldiers and firepower, but that as a combat force its real capabilities are rather low.
The real scandal here is that a bunch of guys lost their careers over seeing prostitutes, which is pretty much what everyone in Washington does.
Agreed
I wish more attention would be paid to the thousands of Marines and their families who got sick or died because the “Always Faithful” Marine Corps leadership covered up the existence of toxic carcinogens in the water at Camp LeJeune.
Agreed again.
BTW – corruption, immorality and poor health were also common in the Soviet military. All in all, the US armed forces are *very* much like the Soviet military of the 1980s..
Amazing, no?
“You are talking about the *Soviet* Army here.”
No, he was talking about post-Soviet Russian army. While I don’t have any inside information, the kind of abuses Sean quotes seem to be common in non-elite units, if we are to believe the press (not only foreign one, but the Russian, is also full of these reports). While it seems the situation improved in the last years (the article Sean quotes is from 2007), I think it is still far from ideal.
@Carlo:No, he was talking about post-Soviet Russian army.
Then he was talking about something which never really existed. Let me explain:
From 1991 to 2000 Russia did not have a Russian Army, but only “units of the former Soviet Army”. These disparate units lacked a single common “face”, no single corporate culture, no single ethos. What does a construction battalion, a artillery cadre division, a separate paratroop regiment and a communication group have in common? Nothing.
Beginning with 2000, there was a real attempted made at (re-)reacting a Russian armed forces, and a full decade later this process has yielded some very real results, some good some bad, but much is still left to change. This is a dynamic process which will take at least another decade. However, concerning discipline, hazing, thuggery and crime, some absolutely crucial steps have been now implemented:
1) For all practical purpose only volunteers are sent into combat. These are mostly conscripts, but not all. Thus the huge bloated mass of semi-literate soldiers is now being dramatically reduced.
2) Russian solders are now using all their time to train for their missions. Tasks such as cleaning, cooking, washing, etc are now done by hired contractors. Doing such task for the longer serving soldiers (деды) by the new recruits (салаги) was a key element of Soviet ear hazing.
3) The NCO corps is being strongly expanded. One of the main functions of hazing was to compensate for a lack of NCO by using long(er) serving soldiers like “unofficial NCOs”. And, as you can easily imagine, an “unofficial drill sergeant” is nothing else then a abusive thug.
4) Cadre divisions have been completely eliminated. These “phantom” divisions were amongst the worst offenders in terms of crime and hazing if only because they were a weid mix between a no man’s land and a officer village.
5) Last but not least, cases of abuse are now made VERY public and the authorities are now forced to investigate them, whether they like it or not. Yes, the press is full of these reports, but that is a good sign, not at all a bad one.
For all these reasons to speak of a “post-Soviet Russian Army” is both conceptually wrong and its aiming at a rapidly moving target.
Lastly, I would argue that abuses in the Soviet armed forces were no worse and no better than the abuses in the rest of Soviet society. This is also true nowadays. In 1991 the Soviet regime was replaced by an arguably even worse Judeo-capitalistic thugocracy which lastest a full decade, and then an ex-KGB guy and his friend from Gazprom managed to simultaneously a) begin a massive “clean house” operation b) restore the state and its economy c) reform the armed forces d) win 2 wars.
For all these reasons I submit that only in another 10 years or so will we have a “Russian army” which we will be able to judge on its merits (or lack thereof).
My 2cts :-)
Read the article and others like it. These abuses are occurring in the modern Russian Army. My understanding is the brutality against recruits is worse in the elite units. There is nothing more immoral than killing people in a war, so drunkenness and seeing prostitutes doesn’t add too much to that one way or the other. I can’t think of too many military units throughout history that consisted of teatotaling virgins.
The use of intoxicants and prostitutes is common throughout history to maintain morale and fighting spirit among soldiers. Alexander the Great’s army was hopped up on opium, the Roman legions usually had their camp followers in tow, British seamen were fed a steady diet of rum and grog. The Greeks encouraged homosexuality among their warriors with the Sacred Band of Thebes being the classic example of gay soldiers who fought to the death.
I don’t think you do the Soviet Army credit. By the end of WWII they were masters at urban warfare and blitzkrieg tactics and were more than a match for the Germans. The idea they needed overwhelming numbers to win is a myth of German officers who couldn’t admit to being beaten fair and square by the Russians. Russian units may have enjoyed numerical superiority in many battles, but they were also on the offensive against damned good soldiers fighting from defensive positions, which negated the odds considerably.
The American military went downhill commensurate with its attempts to stifle alcohol and drug use and enforce martinet “discipline” in the ranks. Soldiers hate that shit and rebel against it every chance they get. Soldiers fighting each other is normal and even leads to unit cohesion as tensions are blown off and the men gain greater respect for each other. See the typical WW II movie like Sands of Iwo Jima where there is always a scene of soldiers fighting and becoming good friends afterwards. Sadistic bullying and abuse is another matter altogether, and is really just a mirror of the harsh “discipline” imposed from without.
American soldiers fought well in Vietnam and typically won most of their battles. But they wised up real quick and decided the war wasn’t worth dying for and often mutinied against their officers. The Russian and French armies did the same thing in WW I and rightfully so. The men who stopped the Germans in the trenches of Verdun weren’t lousy soldiers nor do I imagine they were church ladies who avoided women and drink. They were men who had the balls not only to fight but to do something even harder—refuse to fight. I wish the US military would follow their example and mutiny in Iraq and Afghanistan.
@Sean:Read the article and others like it.
I do. Everyday actually. I follow Russian military news very closely, I assure you. I also know of a lot of folks who served in the Soviet, post-Soviet and even the slowly emerging Russian army.
These abuses are occurring in the modern Russian Army.
See my reply to Carlo above
My understanding is the brutality against recruits is worse in the elite units
That I categorically disagree with. If only because a) the very different type of person serving in them b) the type of control over them c) the fact that they are all now de-facto either volunteers or professionals and d) because they are overseen by officers who have a HUGE career interest at *not* allowing discipline issues to occur in these units.
As for the performance of the Soviet military in WWII, this is a complex issue which I cannot discuss here. I will just say that Soviet forces were superior on the Operational level while the Germans were usually superior tactically. Yes, the Soviets did use numbers, but one could make the case that they had no other option once the Germans were in the suburbs of Moscow. For specifics, look at any of the many books written by Col (Ret) David Glantz, head of the ex-Soviet Military Army Studies later renamed Foreign Military Studies Office at the Training and Doctrine Command of the US Army, Forth Leavenworth (Glantz then relocated to Carlyle, PA).