Note by the Saker: interesting exchange below between Putin and the President of the World Jewish Congress which shows that at least in Russia there is no “Jewish problem” or no “anti-Semitism” issue. The very same Putin who broke the rule of the (mostly Jewish) oligarchs in Russia and the very same Putin who openly restored the historical truth about the overwhelming percentage of Jews amongst the first Bolshevik rulers also made darn sure that regular Jews could live in Russia safely and happily. This is why the head of Russian Federation of Jewish Communities, Rabbi Aleksandr Boroda, declared that “Russian Jews face ‘grave dangers’ if Putin is ousted”. This just goes to prove that real patriotism has nothing to do with nationalism or, even less so, racism and that one can fight the AngloZionist Empire and fight racism at the very same time.
The Saker
——-
President of Russia Vladimir Putin: Mr Lauder, friends, it is a great pleasure to welcome you to Moscow.
We met already in 2003. The World Jewish Congress is a very well-known and influential international non-governmental organisation.
As far as I know, the organisation has existed for 80 years now and you do a lot to provide religious and secular support to Jews all around the world.
As you know, we here in Russia have very close and regular contacts with not only Russian Jewish organisations, but European ones too.
Russia’s Jewish organisations make a big contribution to our internal stabilisation, and we are very grateful to our friends for this.
Judaism is one of Russia’s four traditional religions and, like the other traditional religions, receives constant support from the authorities.
I know the Passover holiday begins soon, on the 22nd, if I recall rightly, and so I would like to begin our conversation today by congratulating you on this upcoming holiday.
Welcome!
President of the World Jewish Congress Ronald Lauder: Thank you very much. I am delighted to be here.
As you know, the World Jewish Congress represents a hundred communities throughout the world and is the umbrella organisation for all Jewish organisations.
Sometimes, we forget to say thank you, but now, I would like to say thank you, thank you for what you have done here for Jewish people. When I first met with you, there was still a great deal of anti-Semitism: there was a great deal of attacks on synagogues, there was officially some anti-Semitism, cemeteries were being defaced.
And we spoke about that, and you told me that you would change this. And you did, and today, there is a minimum of anti-Semitism. I understand that Jewish people live here very, very well, and our synagogues, we have received back synagogues that were taken away.
You have helped, you have made what is probably one of the best museums for Jewish people in the world. I’m also on the board of the museum and I must say, I send everyone to see it, and say, this is a perfect museum.
And I understand from Rabbi Berl Lazar that Jewish life here is getting better and better and stronger, and at a time when in Europe there is a great deal of anti-Semitism.
And again, it’s a pleasure to be here to see what you have done. Also in the case of Israel.
source: http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/51751 (red color added)
The “historical truth” of the “overwhelming” percentage of Jews among the Bolsheviks.
Wikipedia is these days our authority (but I’ve seen similar figures in such outmoded sources as academic books).
Bolsheviks in early 1917, 23 000, of whom 314 were known ethnic Jews. 1922 Party census: Jews – 19 564, or 5.2 per cent of the total membership…
The “historic truth”? The “overwhelming percentage”?
Here’s one strand, among many, of the history of the Revolution: There was for a time a disproportionate number of Jews in the higher ranks of the Bolsheviks. What explains this? There had been a change of regime. A very small minority of the population had seized control, a small minority who did not include many of the middle classes who previously provided the educated administrators such a large country requires. Among the Bolsheviks, who had the education to fill the vacuum? Those sinister Jews. (Sinister because their clear animus against Tsarism, although many in fact liked it fine, or preferred less revolutionary “progressive” parties, and many more expressed their dislike by emigrating – leaving the small minority of Jews who became Bolsheviks – whose Jewishness is therefore sociologically interesting but not much more, and certainly not the big deal made of it here).
There are many more strands in a re-telling of the history of the Revolution, but none of them includes a Jewish conspiracy to destroy Mother Russia.
It is more of a Jewish symptom than Jewish conspiracy.
?
I agree with Alex as to the unitelligibility of your comment.
Symptoms are effects of a disease,which is the cause of the effect.
Are you alleging a specific sort of disease among those who identify themselves as Jews?
If so could you point it out? I have pretty clear notions regarding rabid Zionists, but not so, Jews in general.
I would hold that humanity in general, and the groups I could be personally identified with (none are Jewish in my case….) suffer maladies, and am willing to diagnose those maladies and compare my examination with the work of others examining those maladies, but I don’t find a general sort of vague aspersion to be of any utility, unless it is identified in detail, #1, and then either proven to be valid, generally, or debunked, generally.
“Are you alleging a specific sort of disease among those who identify themselves as Jews?”
I’m alleging a specific sort of disease among those who politically identify themselves as Jews.
?
Read Gilad Atzmon, Alex, and you shall learn
Marija
I had meant to say – I find Israel Shahak preferable, but maybe that’s just a matter of taste.
So, break it down for us, Anonymous at 6:25 am.!!! Why be coy about it???
Break it down: Identify the specific characteristics of the malady that Jews in general suffer from that causes them to transfer the symptoms, the effects of that malady to non-Jews. That way (I’m an idealist!!! ) an honest Jew would have a chance to look inward utilizing the mirror you provide, and have a chance to DO SOMETHING about that malady.
But by your coyness, if I were an honest Jew (I am not a Jew……..) I would have nothing to go by from you, other than a general sense that “my tribe” (Saker says its a tribe….I’l consider that assessment seriously, because of his good judgment on a lot of things….) is under attack and blame, but the reason for that blame is obfuscated, or hidden, ie occulted for some reason, reserved for the knowing to wink knowingly about amongst themselves but not for people like me to be clued in on, and not for Alex to be able to identify, grab unto, and wrestle with.
So, BREAK IT DOWN, won’t you???
Have courage! I no doubt agree more politically with Saker and many others here, than this new guy Alex, but in all fairness it seems to me you are being deliberately obscure, out of defensiveness, or fear, or something I can’t quite put my finger on, and after 6-12 instances of people dodging around the issue and parsing the statistics of leadership versus general membership, I’m getting tired of all the dodging.
Bro Anon
I’m not the poster you are originally responding to but, nevertheless….
The Jewish people possess a number of traits that may support the point of the original Anonymous poster. The first is extreme tribalism. Saker is correct in referring to the Jewish people as a “tribe”. That’s how the Jewish people see themselves as well, particularly the older generations.
The second point is a cultural awareness of (even obsession with) oppression and persecution. This is obvious in the way the Israeli government reacts to criticism. It is always claimed that Israel is held to standards to which no other country is held. Military responses by the IDF that are wildly out of proportion to the damage caused by any attacks are considered perfectly reasonable within the narrative of victimization.
The third point relates to the second. The Jewish people have a long memory. This does not apply merely to the Holocaust. Ask a Jew what “blood libel” means, for example. This is centuries old but still relevant. Persecutions by the Russians such as 19th century pogroms are still considered almost contemporary and were only a mere few decades old at the time of the Russian revolution.
The fourth point is that the concepts of forgiveness and “turning the other cheek” are for christians only. The Jewish people will attempt to seek revenge for attacks and persecution they have suffered.
Finally, the Jewish people historically view christians and christianity with suspicion and mistrust at best, hatred and fear at worst. Particularly one hundred years ago.
Personally, my belief (hope) is that many of these historic cultural traits present in the oral traditions or even talmud are largely a thing of the past.
…and yet, somehow, mysteriously, it is not this tribe with the long memory (surprising or perfectly natural?) of its persecution that has wreaked havoc in the world these last five centuries and more, but us forgiving Christian Europeans, who have slaughtered and pillaged our way from continent to continent.
@ Alex
“… Christian Europeans, who have slaughtered and pillaged … from continent to continent. …”
You must admit that these particular (western) “Christian Europeans” have been pretty egalitarian in their slaughtering and pillaging all over the Globe. In that endeavour they have never discriminated on basis of colour, ethnicity or religion (including – in fact in particular – Christian religion). Jews are neither lone nor biggest victims in the world history (including the recent one), so please do not presume any “special” status here. You do not have to be “№1” in everything, do you.
Andrew
As a Scottish Presbyterian, I can confirm that we Europeans were thorough. The victims would be startled to learn that they were mostly Christians.
Hey “Alex” sayan, when did you “convert” to Presbyterianism?
:-! on April 24, 2016 · at 11:56 pm UTC
Impertinent question. Born into it, baptized etc. etc. Father elder of the Kirk. Uncle Minister of the Kirk. Generations of ’em.
You’re both self-hating and absolutely clueless. Thorough is Ghengis Khan.
Civilizing whole continents full of low population savages, that would have been equally conquered by anyone else if given the time opportunity, is something that you can resolve in the dark corners of your apartment. Leave the self-hating hyperbole, replete with anti-Christian fallacy, out of public political discussions.
Anon on April 25, 2016 · at 8:59 pm UTC
Sorry, Moderators, but I have to reach out to poor Anon.
To acknowledge the past your life is based on is a part of self-knowledge, not self-hatred. To live by delusion is not good for you.
That they would kill each other without our help, or someone else would if not us, is neither here nor there. I think you’ll find we did it with an industrial thoroughness that, yes, does rival Genghis Khan, but no-one else comes close. It’s one of those numerical tricks that there turned out to be so many millions of these “low population savages” to kill. It’s not obvious why you think we should have crossed oceans to help others with their slaughter…
… unless you are serious in repeating the lie once beloved of By-Jingo British Imperialists about our civilising mission, from which we profited so mightily. Is it a fallacy that the British, and the American colonialists, like the Spaniards and the Portugese etc used Christianity as an ideological justification for plunder? Again, I think you should study your history.
I’m reminded of the US Army officer who briefed journalists that the Vietnamese village ultimately had to be destroyed in order to save it.
Quadrivium of Hope (I dispense handles…..Use it or Lose it……that is the most noble one I have yet dreamed up Quadrivium is the 4 fold way….. Arithmetic, Geometry, Music, Astronomy………….of applying the the second way of the Trivium…..together the 3 + 4 of the Pythagoreans leads to the hypotenuse of 5 earth, air, water, fire of the individual, ruled by the 5th element, SPIRIT…….the Ancient Roads to Truth) I agree with much of what you point out. (I was just busy elsewhere and not monitoring this thread very closely, at all, over the weekend…..).
Also agree with Alex, a whole lot. I know I am definitely not Jewish, but am I actually Presbyterian??? LOL. Never considered that possibility!
And I don’t want to be flippant here, but I think we need to examine the possibility that what people are really complaining about here, is Jewish Mothers!!
They neurotically drive their sons, especially, so hard (If you are “chosen” by God you damned better well excel so as to not disprove that notion!!!) that the resulting neurosis spawned generations of Woody Allens….the neurotic Jew is very funny to most of us, and to Jews as well, but a lot of men that could not help but to excel.
This insight comes from my observation of my own wife and her militant raising of my 9 year old and 14 yr old sons. NO TV makes possible that both play 2 instruments + piano theory + straight A’s in school, + Russian school on Saturdays + special projects outside of school (Math Circle, Museums, etc,etc.
The 14 year old had the highest score in a History Bee in Orange County. Before the final round for local champion I heard a mother answering her younger boy in Russian “Da, da” and struck up a conversationwith her. I joked that my 14 year old should be disqualified for “unfair advantage”.
“What do you mean?”, she asked.
“Russian mother.” I answered.
Non-Jewish Russian mother, but the principle is the same.
Of course, I am joking on both counts. But I think I know where the real blame lies. I am writing a paper for posting in the next Moveable Feast Cafe Le Saker. I’ll save the answer for there, since I can’t spit it out intelligibly in 5 minutes.
Bro Anon
Trust me, Presbyterianism is nothing to laugh about! Avoid!
I had meant to say earlier – it seems to me Bro Anon’s comment here should be elevated to a principle for all discussions here.
“Are you alleging a specific sort of disease among those who identify themselves as Jews?”
From Gilad Atzmon:
“My Canadian friend Richard Guillemette sent me the following a few days ago. I think that this is an extraordinary description of the Jewish condition where racial supremacy is celebrated trough tribalism, narcism and aggression:
“In essence it goes a lit bit like this. You travel all over the world Gilad. You see and meet all kind of people,different ethnicities, different ideologies, different cultures etc. let’s say you rent a car in each one and you have a car accident in every country. You then deduce that the reason this is happening is because nobody knows how to drive. Your solution is then to return to London and fight to abolish driving for everybody but you. You might allow some of your close friend to drive also. This problem can never be resolved and you have to live in constant fear every time you go somewhere and have to rent a car.
You know that you are right because God has chosen you as the best driver in the world.”
–Gilad Atzmon( Former Jew and former Israeli)– Article:” God’s Chosen Drivers”
Yup, Israel Shahak definitely preferable.
@who had the education to fill the vacuum?
You mean the vacuum created by ‘Red Terror’ in which, incidentally, the ‘small minority’ played a major role?
A cursory look at what I said would tell you I was talking about the October Revolution not the Bolshevik Terror, which was indeed Bolshevik, not Jewish. “Bolshevik” helps explain what was going on. No-one has yet managed to explain how “Jewish” explains it (especially as Jews were killed and synagogues torched just as Orthodox were killed and churches torched).
I really can’t understand the “need” for some people to hide the truth in history. History is just “what it is”. Denying it won’t make it not true.And it just undermines the deniers arguments. The truth is that yes,Jews in total made up a small proportion of the population. But in the “leading” positions of the party,for that time period,they made up a huge percentage.And as important,or maybe more important,in the secondary positions,they also made up a huge percentage.I don’t consider that a “Jewish conspiracy”. I think that those people used their talents to rise to the top in a revolutionary grouping. And then helped others of their background to rise as well. But regardless of “conspiracy” or no conspiracy. At that time they were a huge percentage of the Communist leadership in the early USSR.And its useless to try and deny that.
Don’t you think that the Jews try to hide their responsibility in the massacres and depredations they foisted upon Russia because they, who demand punishment for any slight against them, might be treated with the same medicine? Punished and made to pay compensation to the ‘survivors and descendants’ of their crimes?
First, read more carefully what the Saker said. And, secondly, you still have to explain why you think the disproportionate number of Jews in the leadership makes this a “Jewish” party and government rather than Bolshevik.
I don’t think it was a “Jewish” party. I think that Bolsheviks of Jewish background (though almost none,or even none,of Jewish faith) had a huge roll in the revolution and its aftermath.And I don’t just “think” that, it’s absolute fact.
“Huge” I don’t know about. No-one denies that there were Jews among the Bolsheviks (I even supplied some statistics) and in other parties pre-Revolution. No-one denies that there was a disproportionate number of Jews in high positions among the Bolsheviks, at least to begin with. The question is what part Jewishness played in their actions and those of the Bolsheviks generally. The Saker says the Jews launched a genocide against other Russians. He also says not all Jews, obviously. This makes it unclear in what sense he and others here think it was Jews and not Bolsheviks. What explanatory value does “Jewish” provide if most Jews had nothing to do with it?
… and I should read carefully what the Saker said as well – it seems ambiguous, and one meaning is slightly less startling than the other
@why you think the disproportionate number of Jews in the leadership makes this a “Jewish” party
Precisely for that.
A large majority of Bolsheviks were right-handed. Doesn’t make it a right-handed-ist party. You need to explain a bit more what purpose is served by defining it in those particular terms.
Aha, the “why the cyclists, why the Jews?” argument! Invented by Siegbert (Simcha) Landau (a survivor of the Holocaust, naturally) in the 1930s and regurgitated ever since as the “Jewish bitter humor” response to the “murderous prejudices” of the day. Made known to the wider world by the character of Julius Lowenthal (played by Heinz Ruehmann) in the 1964 film “Ship of fools”.
“WHY THE JEWS”, by ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ, New York Post:
The question is: “Why the Jews?” There’s an old joke about a Nazi rally in Nuremberg where Hitler is screaming, “Who causes all of Germany’s problems?” An old man in the crowd shouts back, “The bicycle riders.” Hitler’s taken by surprise and asks, “Why the bicycle riders?” To which the old man replies, “Why the Jews?” That was the 1930s — we’re still asking the question in the 21st century.
… you mean no-one has yet managed to think of a good reason?
I mean that no one has managed to hide the obvious.
?
So Hitler was right to rant about Jews?
Shalom, shalom. Try harder.
@ Alex
“The “historical truth” of the “overwhelming” percentage of Jews among the Bolsheviks. … Bolsheviks in early 1917, 23 000, of whom 314 were known ethnic Jews.”
You are grossly misquoting Saker. He was referring to the Jews among the Bolshevik rulers, and not among all the Bolshevik party members. A huge difference.
Saker stated:
“… the historical truth about the overwhelming percentage of Jews amongst the first Bolshevik rulers …”
This fact is amply documented. For instance, in http://www.mediafire.com/download/q7znvoozoucw9oq/Aleksandr+Solzhenitsyn+-+200+Years+Together.pdf
Genady
Yes, it dawned on me only belatedly that the wording was ambiguous and that the meaning might not be the Bolsheviks, the rulers of Russia after the Revolution, but those Bolsheviks in high positions. My second point then kicks in: There are plenty of interesting reasons why Jews should have been represented in the higher echelons of the Party disproportionately to their population. None of those reasons warrant the further inference that the actions of the Bolshevik government were “Jewish” in any interesting sense rather than Bolshevik. In particular, there is nothing to justify the assertion that the assault on Mother Russia and the Orthodox Church was a “genocide launched by the Jews”. There is also the curiosity of a genocide ordered by 5 per cent of the Party, and considerably less of the general population, faithfully carried out by its victims.
I guess the general point Alex is that Jewish politicians/activists etc have been notably vocal on Jewish victimization.
A victimization that continues, long after the principal agents have passed away, to provide constant justification – including financial – for little more than extortion.
Since we all know that vastly greater numbers of Russians perished from the Nazi menace, it must be rather galling to listen to the monotone narrative of ‘exclusive’ victimhood of the Jews, don’t you think? And that’s without even mentioning the countless other victims of holocausts and genocide throughout human history.
And it becomes especially offensive when the fact that some Jews made profits from human misery, like those who bought up real estate in Poland after the Nazi invasion, or who supplied slave labour – including other Jews – to the camps, or who participated in large-scale violent purges in Russia gets airbrushed out of history.
Some of course refuse to collude with the Jewish ‘martyr’ narrative and acknowledge the reality contains some inconvenient truths: and among them are the best of what the Jews can be.
This endless tribalism where criticism of Jewish criminality is treated as a political threat merely prevents the best of them from exerting greater influence.
Its like defending the Mafia on the grounds of anti-Latinism.
Time to develop more robust attitudes to debate and quit being so thin-skinned.
Eimar
I think you are conflating several different things. Unfortunately, it is the same conflation of things anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists employ. (The problem is not with the notion of conspiracy, the world is riddled with conspiracies. The problem is with paranoia.) The net effect is, to use your analogy, saying the Mafia is bad because it’s Italian, or the Triads because they’re Chinese.
Zionism seems to me indefensible. The “Holocaust” racket as described by Norman Finkelstein is an abomination, and I say that as someone who lost relatives.
I have spent enough time studying the Eastern Front to know the estimates of how many Soviet soldiers and civilians were killed by the Nazis, and how many were doomed to starvation had the Nazis won. And I agree that to commemorate the Jewish dead and ignore the rest is obscene. This is not a reason to deny the unique features of the Einsatzgruppen, the ghettoes, and the death camps that operated alongside the labour camps. It takes a great effort to ignore the evidence. In other circumstances this would be silly. In the world of paranoid conspiracy theories it is toxic.
The notion that the Bolshevik Revolution, the Civil War, the attack on the Orthodox Church, the famines and purges were somehow Jewish rather than Bolshevik simply does not stand up as a plausible account of events.
This has nothing to do with thin skin and robust debate, but blunderbuss prejudice.
A criminal who is Jewish is not a criminal because he is Jewish, unless you can actually substantiate the paranoid conspiracy theory that lies behind this conflation. No-one seems to get beyond “He is Jewish… and so is he… and they attend secret meetings where I know they discuss how to rule the world and destroy Russia… and a lot of bankers are Jewish, so it just goes to show…” Go after Zionism, by all means. You’ll be more effective if your vision is not clouded by prejudice and paranoia (sorry, I don’t mean you personally, I mean “one”).
@inference that the actions of the Bolshevik government were “Jewish” in any interesting sense rather than Bolshevik
I did hesitate whether to take this statement (and other) as disingenuousness (suggested by the typical trick of ridiculing the opponent in order to avoid answering embarrassing questions) or sheer naivety induced by ignorance. Taking into consideration that the “Western” approach to this question is the result of a massive operation of (Jewish) brainwashing, I opted for the view that it is just ignorance from your part. So, just to help you alleviate your cognitive dissonances, I put together a little sample of opinions expressed by mostly Jewish authors about the Jewish character of the “Bolshevik’s revolution”. Just to show that it is not “us” who need to “give reasons” about facts that everyone knew at the time.
“An article in a 1907 issue of the respected American journal National Geographic reported on the revolutionary situation brewing in Russia in the years before the First World War: ” The revolutionary leaders nearly all belong to the Jewish race, and the most effective revolutionary agency is the Jewish Bund ” W. E. Curtis, “The Revolution in Russia,” The National Geographic Magazine, May 1907, pp. 313-314.
“Piotr Stolypin, probably imperial Russia’s greatest statesman, was murdered in 1911 by a Jewish assassin. In 1907, Jews made up about ten percent of Bolshevik party membership. In the Menshevik party, another faction of the Russian Social Democratic Labor Party, the Jewish proportion was twice as high. R. Pipes, The Russian Revolution (1990), p. 365.; See also: R. Wilton, The Last Days of the Romanovs (1993), pp. 185-186.
“The Bolshevik Revolution,” declared a leading American Jewish community paper in 1920, “was largely the product of Jewish thinking, Jewish discontent, Jewish effort to reconstruct.
(American Hebrew (New York), Sept. 1920. Quoted in: Nathan Glazer and Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Beyond the Melting Pot (Cambridge, Mass.: 1963), p. 268.
“As an expression of its radically anti-nationalist character, the fledgling Soviet government issued a decree a few months after taking power that made anti-Semitism a crime in Russia. The new Communist regime thus became the first in the world to severely punish all expressions of anti-Jewish sentiment (C. Jacobson, “Jews in the USSR” in: American Review on the Soviet Union, August 1945, p. 52.; Avtandil Rukhadze, Jews in the USSR: Figures, Facts, Comment (Moscow: Novosti, 1978), pp. 10-11.)”
“Immediately after the [Bolshevik] Revolution, many Jews were euphoric over their high representation in the new government. Lenin’s first Politburo was dominated by men of Jewish origins… Under Lenin, Jews became involved in all aspects of the Revolution, including its dirtiest work. Despite the Communists’ vows to eradicate anti-Semitism, it spread rapidly after the Revolution — partly because of the prominence of so many Jews in the Soviet administration, as well as in the traumatic, inhuman Sovietization drives that followed. Historian Salo Baron has noted that an immensely disproportionate number of Jews joined the new Bolshevik secret police, the Cheka And many of those who fell afoul of the Cheka would be shot by Jewish investigators… The collective leadership that emerged in Lenin’s dying days was headed by the Jew Zinoviev, a loquacious, mean-spirited, curly-haired Adonis whose vanity knew no bounds.”
(Louis Rapoport, Stalin’s War Against the Jews (New York: Free Press, 1990), pp. 30, 31, 37
“A thorough-going internationalist, Lenin viewed ethnic or cultural loyalties with contempt. He had little regard for his own countrymen. “An intelligent Russian,” he once remarked, “is almost always a Jew or someone with Jewish blood in his veins.”
(Richard Pipes, The Russian Revolution (New York: Knopf, 1990), p. 352.
“Anyone who had the misfortune to fall into the hands of the Cheka,” wrote Jewish historian Leonard Schapiro, “stood a very good chance of finding himself confronted with, and possibly shot by, a Jewish investigator.” (Quoted in: Salo Baron, The Russian Jews Under Tsars and Soviets (New York: 1976), pp. 170, 392 (n. 4).
In Ukraine, “Jews made up nearly 80 percent of the rank-and-file Cheka agents,” reports W. Bruce Lincoln, an American professor of Russian history.
“The whole record of Bolshevism in Russia is indelibly impressed with the stamp of alien invasion. The murder of the Tsar, deliberately planned by the Jew Sverdlov (who came to Russia as a paid agent of Germany) and carried out by the Jews Goloshchekin, Syromolotov, Safarov, Voikov and Yurovsky, is the act not of the Russian people, but of this hostile invader.” (R. Wilton, The Last Days of the Romanovs, 1920)
Trotsky: “The decision [to kill the imperial family] was not only expedient but necessary. The severity of this punishment showed everyone that we would continue to fight on mercilessly, stopping at nothing. The execution of the Tsar’s family was needed not only in order to frighten, horrify, and instill a sense of hopelessness in the enemy but also to shake up our own ranks, to show that there was no turning back, that ahead lay either total victory or total doom. This Lenin sensed well.” (Richard Pipes, The Russian Revolution (1990), p. 787)
So, “why the bicycle riders”?
WizOz
In your eagerness to provide overwhelming evidence, you have copied a number of quotes that do not support your thesis and are consistent with mine or irrelevant.
That Jews were disproportionate in the higher ranks of the Bolsheviks and that many did the dirty work of the Cheka is not in dispute. (Indeed, Trotsky thought the number of Jews a bad idea.)
That there were Jews willing to do the dirty work is an unfortunate consequence of human nature (there are Jews who are bad just as there are gentiles who are bad), the experience of Russian Jews in the latter years of Tsarism, and the prejudices on both sides.
That there were Jews (among those who didn’t just want to emigrate to get away from the harsh conditions) who supported liberal and revolutionary parties is a consequence of discrimination/persecution and education. Do you think it likely that second class citizens not resent their status and treatment? Where in history have you found such forbearance? Palestine? Kashmir? South Africa? …
That there were many Jews in high positions is also a result of the sudden need for a whole new administrative class sufficiently educated to run the state but not tainted by association with the previous regime … etc. etc.
Does this make it a Jewish revolution? No. It was a Bolshevik revolution supported by a small minority of Russian Jews.
What was the source for your ragbag of quotes? You read all those books?
And you haven’t said whether you think Hitler right to rant about Jews.
“And you haven’t said whether you think Hitler right to rant about Jews.”
I’ll answer you if I may,no, he was not right. The level of Jewish influence in Germany came nowhere near the influence of people with Jewish backgrounds in the early USSR.It didn’t even come near the influence of people of Jewish background in today’s US.The Jews (for many reasons,mostly untrue) were an easy target for Hitler in that period.The preceding decades had seen a large (though in absolute numbers much smaller than today’s Muslim) immigration of Jews from Eastern Europe to Germany for economic reasons.A Germany that was at least 90% ethnic German. With the local Jewish population almost totally assimilated into German society. Those immigrants were a very visible “other” on the streets and lower class areas in German cities.Some of them furnished a lot of the criminal underworld in Germany.So they were (and as a byproduct local Jews) an easy target for nazi racial propaganda.Only a century before had seen Jews gain civil and as we would say today “human rights” in Germany. So it wasn’t hard at all for the nazis to inflate grievances against “Jews”. At first he had a more difficult time attacking local German Jews. But once people accepted the propaganda against Jews in general. It became much easier for him. And from then on it wasn’t a huge step to a “final solution to the Jewish problem” ,to use the favored nazi phrase at the time.
@… whether you think Hitler right to rant about Jews
When the “bicycle riders” argument fails, it’s time to bring in the big guns: “Reductio ad Hitlerum”.
(Wikipedia is these days our authority):
“Reductio ad Hitlerum, also argumentum ad Hitlerum (Latin for “reduction to Hitler”, where Hitlerum serves as the accusative case of Adolf Hitler’s surname in Latin) is a term coined by German-American philosopher Leo Strauss in 1951. According to Strauss, the Reductio ad Hitlerum is a humorous observation where someone compares an opponent’s views with those that would be held by Hitler or the Nazi Party.
According to Strauss, Reductio ad Hitlerum is a form of ad hominem, ad misericordiam, or a fallacy of irrelevance. The suggested rationale is one of guilt by association.
The term is coined in an analogy with “reductio ad absurdum”.
Reductio ad Hitlerum is sometimes called “playing the Nazi card”. According to its critics and proponents, it is a tactic often used to derail arguments, because such comparisons tend to distract and anger the opponent, as Hitler and Nazism have been condemned in the modern Western world”.
And yes, I did read those books. I recommend you do the same, although I wonder whether they could change your ideas (they are after all “outmoded sources as academic books”).
WizOz
Rather than address any point of substance, you come up with this jolly wheeze? Two points. First, you introduced Hitler to the discussion. Secondly, a reductio ad absurdam is a valid form of argument. So is your reductio ad Hitleram, since you introduced him to the discussion..
So, you think Hitler was right to rant?
Do you keep a pocket book for quotes you think feed your prejudice? Or did you fly to your bookshelves to leaf through umpteen volumes? Your library must be quite extensive to include a National Geographic from 1907 and “Jews in the USSR” Novosti 1978!
This form of polemic is familiar to me from Zionist historiography and hasbara, where they copy and paste every phrase or paragraph or fact or half-fact or factoid into a grand narrative of justification that has little to do with the complexities of the history they distort.
You are dishonest. You asked comminatorily twice whether I thought Hitler was right about Jews, obviously with the intention to derail the arguments. It is a tactic which became almost standard on the net. It was even formulated as a law:
Godwin’s Law: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1”.
WizOz
You began dripping condescension. You continued by introducing Hitler (WizOz on April 23, 2016 · at 12:26 am UTC). You end up with an unwarranted accusation. And address no point put to you. Not very creditable.
@unwaranted accusation
It is not the same way that we introduced Hitler into the discussion. In actual fact what I introduced was Alan Dershowitz, who introduced the joke to kill the argument.
You do realize that a question like “So Hitler was right to rant about Jews?”, repeated with insistence, is a loaded question. It suggests guilt by association (So, you approve of what Hitler did to the Jews?).
Wiz Oz
No, this won’t do. You introduced a joke, one of the sources of which was “A Holocaust survivor, naturally”. You simply cited the poisonous Dershowitz as another source for the joke. You introduced the whole subject of the holocaust, Hitler, and Nuremberg. You also made it clear that you don’t think the answer is that it is absurd for Hitler to blame the Jews. It is disingenuous now to claim that you had nothing to do with introducing Hitler and his delusional anti-Semitism to the debate. I repeated the question about his ranting (not the holocaust) because you repeatedly evaded answering after having raised the topic. Not very creditable.
Moderator, it’s okay, I’ve finished with trying to get a straightforward response. Thank you for your patience.
“… the historical truth about the overwhelming percentage of Jews amongst the first Bolshevik rulers …”
What is ambiguous at all with those words. They seem pretty clear cut to me. How much more clear can, “overwhelming percentage of Jews amongst the first Bolshevik rulers” be?
The ambiguity is not so very difficult to discern. The Bolsheviks ruled Russia. The overwhelming percentage were not Jewish. What was intended, I think, was the “overwhelming percentage of Jews among the Bolshevik leadership”.
Your version of the history of German anti-Semitism is at least novel.
And what you say seems to imply that if Hitler had been ranting in Russia or the US he would not have been wrong!
Uncle Bob 1
For some context: there was some immigration from the East at the turn of the century, which brought the Jewish population up to less than 1 per cent. The census in 1933 calculated the Jewish population to be… less than 1 per cent.
If you recall I’m the one that said he was wrong in claiming huge Jewish influence in Germany. I’m quite aware of the numbers. But Germany was a very homogeneous society then, with very few minority peoples. And the Eastern (and in many cases quite distinct )European Jewish immigrants were to be found mostly in the large cities in Germany. And in the lower class areas. Where they also, much like lower class immigrants in Europe today,made up a lot of the criminal groups. They were a big part of the street crime,gang crime,and white slavery crime in the Germany of that time. Most local German Jews abhorred them immigrating to Germany. Fearing (rightly) it would lead to general anti-Jewish feelings. And be meat for people like Hitler to use against all Jews.By that time most German Jews were Reform Judaism followers. Spoke German,had German names and loyalties. Intermarriage was high. And considered themselves as fully (minus religion) Germans. The Easterners dressed differently (many of them ). Were conservative Jews religiously. Spoke mostly Yiddish,and/or the languages of the countries they came from. Didn’t consider themselves German or loyalty to Germany.And with the hard economic conditions of post-WWI Europe. They were an easy target to use by Jew haters against all Jews in Germany.
Uncle Bob 1
The immigrants amounted to something of the order of 80 000. The population of Germany at the time was 60m. The immigrants amounted to 0.13 per cent of the population. Aware of the numbers as you are, you will understand as well as I do that this cannot be anything like the full explanation for anti-Semitism in Germany (or Austria). A gift to propagandists, certainly.
There is nothing about Hitler’s rants about “Jewish Bolshevism” that is valid.
And the point of this whole discussion is, What has Jewishness got to do with it?. It’s about Bolsheviks. And most Jews were not Bolsheviks. Simply repeating that there were lots of Jews among the Bolsheviks gets us no closer to a reasonable answer. That Jews were persecuted might be relevant – and in that sense their Jewishness is relevant – because others were prejudiced against Jews. That the Jews in question were brought up in revolutionary politics. That some of them were Marxists. That many were educated. That some were psychopaths… All likely to be part of the explanation. But what has Jewishness per se got to do with it, other than because of other people’s prejudices?
There are two points/questions there. 1. I see nothing ambiguous in saying the,” overwhelming percentage of Jews amongst the first Bolshevik rulers “. Anyone seeing that could easily see that it says, “an overwhelming percentage of the Bolshevik leaders were Jews”. You can disagree with him or not. But understanding the words he is using isn’t a valid argument. Its about as plain of an English sentence as can be.
2. Was on Hitler (of course). Yes,he would have had a more valid point in claiming large Jewish influence in the USSR (then) and the US (now). Having a valid point in talking about something in no way excuses mass murder as a way to change a situation.
Uncle Bob 1
Everyone else understood the Saker perfectly, so clearly I am wrong.
The rest of the discussion proceeds nonetheless.
If you read what Hitler said, it was never going to be valid in any context.
The nearest analogies in recent history are apartheid whites on “blacks” and Likudniks on “Arabs”.
That would have to do with the individual things he said. But the general point (which was the point of this entire discussion) that Jews had great influence in the early USSR and today’s US is totally valid. They did there and do here. This will have to be my last on this subject. I think I’ve covered it enough.
Uncle Bob 1
Here, from Mein Kampf, is just one of the many places where, abstracting from the details of what he says, Hitler makes what you think a “valid point”:
““Never forget that the rulers of present-day Russia are common blood-stained criminals; that they are the scum of humanity which, favoured by circumstances, overran a great state in a tragic hour, slaughtered and wiped out thousands of her leading intelligentsia in wild blood lust, and now for almost ten years have been carrying on the most cruel and tyrannical regime of all time.
Furthermore, do not forget that these rulers belong to a race which combines, in a rare mixture, bestial cruelty and an inconceivable gift for lying, and which today more than ever is conscious of a mission to impose its bloody oppression on the whole world. Do not forget that the international Jew who completely dominates Russia today regards Germany not as an ally, but as a state destined to the same fate.
The danger to which Russia succumbed is always present for Germany. Only a bourgeois simpleton is capable of imagining that Bolshevism has been exorcised. With his superficial thinking he has no idea that this is an instinctive process; that is, the striving of the Jewish people for world domination, a process which is just as natural as the urge of the Anglo-Saxon to seize domination of the earth. And just as the Anglo-Saxon pursues this course in his own way and carries on the fight with his own weapons, likewise the Jew. He goes his way, the way of sneaking in among the nations and boring from within, and he fights with his weapons, with lies and slander, poison and corruption, intensifying the struggle to the point of bloodily exterminating his hated foes.
In Russian Bolshevism we must see the attempt undertaken by the Jews in the twentieth century to achieve world domination. Just as in other epochs they strove to reach the same goal by other, though inwardly related processes. Their endeavor lies profoundly rooted in their essential nature.
Germany is today the next great war aim of Bolshevism. It requires all the force of a young missionary idea to raise our people up again, to free them from the snares of this international serpent, and to stop the inner contamination of our blood, in order that the forces of the nation thus set free can be thrown in to safeguard our nationality, and thus can prevent a repetition of the recent catastrophes down to the most distant future.
If we pursue this aim, it is sheer lunacy to ally ourselves with a power whose master is the mortal enemy of our future. How can we expect to free our own people from the fetters of this poisonous embrace if we walk right into it? How shall we explain Bolshevism to the German worker as an accursed crime against humanity if we ally ourselves with the organizations of this spawn of hell, thus recognizing it in the larger sense?”
OK, you say he was wrong to try in the end to kill them all (probably not his initial intention). But nevertheless his point was… valid.
– Just because a very small minority of Russian Jews were revolutionaries, of whom a small minority were Bolsheviks, of whom a small minority held a lot of senior positions in the Party for a time and a small minority were Chekists. So, 0.0whatever per cent of Russian Jews had a disproportionate representation for a time in the upper ranks of the Bolshevik Party, therefore Hitler had a “valid” point?
You say that you think that, with this assertion of Hitler’s validity, you have “covered it enough”…
@ Alex
I have never read Mein Kampf, always having better things to do, so I cannot vouch for the accuracy of your quote. However, the book being an obligatory reading at Jewish schools here in the US (at Brandeis University, for instance), I have no reason to doubt your expertise on the subject. Reading the above for the first time, some of it strikes me as quite bizarre, while some does ring very true indeed. Forgetting about the source & the author for a moment, parts of it appear as written today by someone very perceptive, recounting his keen first-hand observations and understanding of the situation in the United States, otherwise so well known to everyone here.
Felix
I will restrain the impulse simply to say “Bollocks”.
Note that Hitler refers to “the Jew”, “the Jews”, and “the international Jew”.
I’ll credit you with the intelligence to see that this has no bearing on reality anywhere anytime.
@patience
Think of our patience too, thank you.
In peace it takes two to tango.
Paradox: President Putin tries to make Russia hospitable for Jews; but they don’t want Russian people and Russia as a country to exist.
Apparently, Rabbi Berel Lazar speaks out of both sides of his mouth.
He is an Orthodox, Chabad-Lubavitch Hasidic rabbi. He is one of the leaders of the extremist terrorist Jews organization that is suing Russian taxpayers for millions.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Chabad+sues+russia
So much for being good citizens of Russia!
President Putin stated in 2015 that the first Soviet Government was 85% ethnic Jewish. It was the government that unlashed the Red Terror and murdered tens of million innocent Russian people, including thousands of Russian Orthodox priests. Many were murdered in death camps invented by Lev Bronstein/ Trotsky.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=lev+bronstein+trotsky+death+camps
It’s possible that some organizations in Russia will sue Chabad and other world Jewish organization for reparation.
1. Chief Rabbinate of Russia – Moscow, Russia – Chabad.org
http://www.chabad.org/centers/default…/Chief-Rabbinate-of-Russia.htm
Chabad Chief Rabbinate of Russia – 2nd Vysheslavtsev pereulok, 5a Moscow, 127018 Russia Rabbi Berel Lazar.
2. Berel Lazar – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berel_Lazar
Rabbi Shalom Dovber Pinchas Lazar (born May 19, 1964), better known as Berel Lazar, is an Orthodox, Chabad-Lubavitch Hasidic rabbi. He is Chief Rabbi of Russia, and chairman of the Federation of Jewish …
3. USA to arrest world’s largest sailing ship because of Jewish books
http://www.pravdareport.com/society/stories/03-07-2012/121545-sedov_jewish_books-0/
4. See also: exchanges frozen over Chabad lawsuit
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=exchanges-frozen-over-chabad-lawsuit
“… but they don’t want the Russian people… to exist” – they being “Jews”.
Don’t be daft.
Of course they need some slaves. As old good rabi Ovadia Yosef said:
“Why are Gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi and eat. That is why Gentiles were created.”
His funeral in Jerusalem was the largest in Israel’s history, with an estimated attendance of 850,000.
Have you been there too?
“They” being Jews who politically identify themselves as Jews. Liberal zionists, hardcore zionists, ‘anti-‘ zionists. Same sh!t.
Where is it “Jews” – Zionist or anti-Zionist – say they don’t want the Russian people to exist? And do your strictures extend to non-Jewish Zionists and anti-Zionists? I would say I’m anti-Zionist. I’ve never wanted rid of the Russian people.
Yeah, this praise of Putin is just PR. They cannot attack him publicly.
I think Putin should have to him to do something about the bad jews in the world, like soros, camoron, nuland etc.
Ronald Lauder is nothing if not an avowed Zionist. He founded a school for the Mossad in Herzliya, Israel called the Lauder School of Government Diplomacy and Strategy. He is arguably a key Sayan in the preparation of 9/11.
He is a thief too. His jewish comrade Železný and him stole 10.000.000.000 CZK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CME/Lauder_v._Czech_Republic
But what if the (e.g.) Jews make patriotism impossible, like in America? Isn’t it necessary to bridle the (e.g.) Jews in a situation like that? Is that “racism”?
Reading this article it comes to my mind the word “Cynism”: Some are saying that they are “the chosen people” excluding any other religions from that place.Is God such an exceptionalist or even worse,a racist ? God Himself said “I am Spirit” and as such,He doesn’t choose some human beings by race or religion.Isn’t it cruel or cynic such a thinking if we look at the multitudes of life paths for each person in particular ? “the chosen people” are those who find the way to God trough Love and in spirit and without fear. If somebody grows up in India is he a sinner because he has other view on that matter ? “God created us upon His image”,but we are not perfect,so the job of creating us is not yet over.Then why are we sinners,and therefore to be sent at hell at the end of times ? isn’t enough the hell on earth ? aren’t we all kept in permanent fear during our lifetime ? aren’t we crucified in many forms and left in darkness ? These churches are saying that we have only one life and according to their teachings,we go to heaven or to hell,depending on how we lived our lives.
God must be perfect,he created everything,he gave birth to life,our life.But one life is enough to learn ? in Asia is long accepted the reincarnation as a new possibility to learn,to evolve spiritually.At least,in their teachings they give every human being a chance and therefore they must not live their life in fear and the acceptance of suffering is motivated.The Abrahamic culture and religions were nowhere when in Asia the knowledge in many cultural,religious,medical and other spheres were strongly rooted in the society for thousands of years.Anyway,this philosophy sound to have more logic,at least for me.A lot of question will remain and the answers are to find out ourselves,the Father is so kind to let us search and kill each-other because we don’t agree on the same Bible or Koran and many of us are stupid enough to do that.Or must the little child protect his powerful Father against His enemies ? Even Jesus was asking for His help on that cross,just to show to all of human beings what is the way for those ho dare to seek love,justice and truth on this Earth.My feeling is that all of us are interconnected with that fate in one way or the other.Until that Beast who creates havoc for such a long time is not totally destroyed,we will continue to suffer,with reincarnation or without.That outcome couldn’t be made without sacrifices.With everlasting praying we achieve nothing,we must be stubborn enough to destroy that Beast.But who is that Beast ? first we have to look in ourselves,beat that beast in our spirit,who is weakening us with fear.We don’t have to live in fear,no more fear,no more forgiveness for the evil.No more waiting for heavenly help.Once our house is cleaned up,we can get the fight on the battlefield against the servants of the Beast.This fight is mostly spiritual but it has now a strong and predominantly physical form and many of us feel that.How many Prophets were killed,how many saints have been sacrificed and who counted them ? Is that a delight for somebody in Heaven ? oh,no,this have to be stopped.The “elites” who think that they are Gods – and they truly believe that – are acting like gods,and have a good time when they make us suffer for much too long,are serving that Beast.
Yet the Real God is challenging them as a whole ? no,that is our job to do.
The huge personal sacrifices done by usual people with good hearts and in good faith for us to have a better life in liberty and without fear is in vain ?
Revolution after revolution,war after war,destruction and then rebuild,then again destruction.Is that really not enough ? while the “elites” remain basically the same.And those ‘elites” are now saying that “God is with them”,but not just the “elites” are saying that,all those who are working and collaborating with them are saying the same “God is with us”.The Vatican has swallowed Jesus and yet she has for 2000 years no indigestion.But guys,let us wait for another 1000 years till the magical number of 600.000 humans left is achieved.Are we ready for that ? and who is to blame,God or we are ? …where is the paradox ?
ioan, we’re here to work on our consciousness and most religions have been an initial help in enabling individuals to become more conscious of the extent of our condition and potential than they were as infants.
However, due to many factors, not the least of which is the amount of time required to make their “daily bread” for most the process stops halfway, as faith and belief in something exterior to themselves (religious dogma, for example) is adhered to and the process of “knowing the truth” is thus aborted, with the vision fixed outwardly, pining for “salvation” from the outside and fighting and dying for whatever fairly well developed or poorly developed version of truth that tribe or nation or collection of individual souls has arrived at, in the aggregate, at that moment.
The promise of progress beyond this halfway condition lies, it seems to me, in what you are doing or attempting to do…much is still outward, but their is also an inward component of your searching. And vision in the inward direction is where most of the problem lies, IMHO.
We look to the stars a bit too much and sharpen our farsightedness. They say (the sages, the teachers) that the bulk of us are terrified of looking within. I don’t know if that is so, exactly. Right this moment, my idea is that the visual apparatus of most of us has been pointed outwards so long, that in our well developed far sightedness, any attempt to look in the other direction is just a blur, where we can’t pick out any detail.
Furthermore, I believe that there are controllers and so called leaders that INTEND to keep it that way, on purpose, by design, because, as you say, they aspire to be the gods of this earth at least, and the last thing they want is for the masses of people to deeply know themselves! Because then they will quickly discover the Principle of Correspondence of this Universe: As Above, So below. As without, so within, and might figure this whole spiritual exercise in Consciousness becoming conscious of itself, both inside and out. And those controllers are AFRAID that would render them actually inferior in knowledge or at best, just equals, among the very many who “know”. So obfuscation and ignorance are deliberately spread to cement their position as masters of this material “prison”, as they see it, rather than risk “serving” in a far more peaceful and orderly arrangement where the majority of grownups know Natural Law boundary conditions that apply in this Universe, defend their Natural Law rights and those of others, and refuse to abide by laws of any controllers that are in contradiction to Natural Law.
That’s where we are, IMHO.
Before you get depressed about it, just realize how far we’ve come. Just yesterday in geological or astronomical time, say 40,000 years ago, the average human was freezing his ass off in an Ice age, competing with animals far stronger and swifter than he or she, and very very lucky to live to 30 years of age.
Yeah,I know,I am working on my consciousness too,sometimes using heavy artillery – some Katyusha in the vineyard – and as you say,before getting too depressed and blowing up my mind,I’ll go into the next Cafe to listen some good thoughts,music and have some fun.Anyway,somehow I must change the reactionary batteries with another much more balanced one.
well said Bro Anon,
i would add….
most people have developed an ego, a false personality from outward influences, society, parents, educational conditioning.
this ‘false personality’ is very insecure, therefore it resists being examined
and exposed. it makes it very difficult to observe what is really going on
internally. the real self stops evolving about six or seven years old and is still
childlike.
there is the heart of your ”They say (the sages, the teachers) that the bulk of us are terrified of looking within.”
and some who do manage some insight are usually painfully horrified at
the contradictions residing side by side within and come to the fore
depending on the outer stimulous. these are called ‘illusions’ that most
of us suffer from but are not aware of.
Fear? Fear of a physical threat? Or fear of the unknown? Sometimes I tend to think many people use religion to deal with fear of the unknown. To deal with events not understood.
Most peoples throughout history seem to have had some form of belief in supernatural beings that were responsible for events that were not understood.
Peter, allow me to redirect on the concept I am attempting to employ, in regard to fear.
I do not mean the simplest sort of elemental physical fear or spiritual fear that you mention in your query, of a physically weak person, or spiritually frightened child or member of an indigenous society living a precarious existence with little protection from nature, when it gets violent. I mean it more precisely as an impediment to love and an opposite to Love (not Eros or romantic love…I am referring to love in the widest, deepest sense of Love of humanity, Love of the cause or force of creation,i.e. Love of the larger Self, as opposed to a narrower egoistic, narcissistic love of the small self or sexual love of another specific being.
Someone (Poroshenko, Soros, The British Royals, the Rothschilds, Warren Buffett, some Russian oligarchs, virtually every Latin American oligarch) whose greed is virtually unlimited and who would be happier to see millions of other human beings die, including their own countrymen, than they would be to lose 3/4 of their fortune. Or maybe even 1/4 of it!!!
Not normal fear. Psychopathic fear. They have been confronted with that fear decades or generations ago, and have made their decision which is now virtually cast in stone forever: If it is between their wealth and power and the interests of humanity as a whole, or millions, hundreds of millions or even billions of other human beings, it’s “thumbs down” to the latter,WITHOUT HESITATION, as far as they are concerned.
THAT kind of fear. Now, we can go deeper into their dark, dark psyches, if you would like.
PACE is Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, and Council of Europe statutory organ.
PACE has just created a legal precedent, and judicial grounds for condoning murders of Russian people as “non crime.” Essentially, PACE is awarding Savchenko for murder, and implies that those who killed Russians will be heralded as heroes, and those judges who convict murderers will be sanctioned.
The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe called on member countries of the Organization to introduce so-called “Savchenko.list” demanding release of convicted murderer of two Russian journalists.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=pace+savchenko+list
Reminder: Ukrainian pilot Savchenko guilty of Russian journalists’ murder, illegal border crossing – court
https://www.rt.com/news/336400-savchenko-guilty-murder-journalists/
Netanyahu’s visit to Russia April 21st 2016 SITREP
April 17: Netanyahu delivers his ultimatum that Israel Will Never Withdraw From Golan Heights. …
April 21: Netanyahu’s one day visit to Russia and meeting with President Putin. Israeli PM repeated his April 17 declaration that Israel will never give up control of the Syrian territories of the Golan Heights.
April 21: President Putin says absolutely nothing about the Israeli occupation of the Golan Heights and Palestine
April 21: briefing of Russia’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs after Netanyahu’s visit that Russia maintained its position on the Golan Heights based on a United Nations (UN) Security Council resolution, which stipulated inadmissibility of the acquisition of a territory by war and the necessity to find a solution terminating its occupation through talks.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-04/22/c_135301627.htm
Scott, I’ve been saying all along that Israel wants to consolidate as well as extend its hold on the Golan and it is a price that Syria , at this point, will have to pay;. Unfortunately, there are bigger fish for Russia to fry and any silence on Putin’s part is a strategic sacrifice.
Most likely the Israeli government is attempting to make sure they’re not required to share any of the profits of Genie Energy with Syria. The effective annexation of the Golan was done in 1981 although no government recognizes Israeli authority there.
teranam13
Are you trolling me?
After you have completely flipped the meaning of what I wrote, I think you are.
Nevertheless, please, accept my apology for not being clear enough.
I will try again…
What you just wrote is completely opposite to the meaning of information I have provided.
You wrote: “that Syria , at this point, will have to pay;. Unfortunately, there are bigger fish for Russia to fry and any silence on Putin’s part is a strategic sacrifice.”
There is no bigger fish for Russia right now than to defend the territorial integrity of Syria.
If you don’t get it, then we, as an editorial team, have failed to explain this to our readers.
In reality…
“Moscow, April 22: Russian President Vladimir Putin on Thursday said it is important to maintain close contacts with Israel amid the unstable situation in the Middle East. Putin met with visiting Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Thursday.
“A statement from the Kremlin said Putin and Netanyahu exchanged views on key issues on bilateral cooperation, particularly in the field of security, as well as urgent regional and global issues including the Palestinian-Israeli peace process and the Syrian crisis.
“Netanyahu’s visit came days after Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas visited Russia”
“Netanyahu said he came to Russia “with one particular main purpose: to strengthen the coordination between us in the field of security, in order to prevent all sorts of mistakes and misunderstandings.” :(
“He also insisted that “the Golan Heights (territories in northern Israel the country occupied from Syria in the 1967 War) will remain part of the sovereign territory of Israel with or without an agreement.” Netanyahu also vowed to prevent the appearance of “another terrorist front” directed against Israel in the Golan Heights.”
http://www.india.com/news/world/close-contacts-with-israel-important-for-russia-vladimir-putin-1127844/
Putin said nothing to him. Think about this. The President just refused to discuss these issues with the Israeli PM.
However, after the meeting, “Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said during a briefing earlier that Russia maintained its position on the Golan Heights based on a United Nations (UN) Security Council resolution, which stipulated inadmissibility of the acquisition of a territory by war and the necessity to find a solution terminating its occupation through talks.”
http://www.mid.ru/press_service/spokesman/briefings/-/asset_publisher/D2wHaWMCU6Od/content/id/2247731#23
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/51765
I think preserving the territorial integrity of Syria will only be in the UN at the moment. I doubt Syria will be able to reoccupy its territory until the bigger fish have been fried.
For Syria to regain control of Golan heights, the protector of Israel first has to be neutralised.
Peter
QUESTION: Could I follow up on the – also the issue of Syrian sovereignty? This weekend, the Israeli prime minister held a meeting in the Golan Heights, basically saying that they will never withdraw from the Golan Heights, which you recognize as occupied territory. Do you have a comment on that?
MR KIRBY: I’m not going to react to everything that’s said at cabinet meetings. I’m also not going to react to every bit of rhetoric, as I’ve routinely not wanted to do. I would, however, reiterate that the U.S. position on the status of the Golan Heights is longstanding and is unchanged. Every administration on both sides of the aisle since 1967 has maintained that those territories are not part of Israel. The conditions under which those territories are ultimately returned should be decided through negotiations between the respective parties. And obviously, Said, the current situation in Syria makes it difficult to continue those efforts at this time.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2016/04/255946.htm
I guess response to actions need to be considered rather than the rhetoric.
The question is – what would be the US response if Russia militarily helped Syria retake control of Golan Heights at the present time. The US is still the protector of Israel.
” “Netanyahu said he came to Russia “with
one particular main purpose: to strengthen
the coordination between us in the field of
security, in order to prevent all sorts of
mistakes and misunderstandings.” :(”
He travelled to Moscow just to say that?
Quite a change from earlier Israeli bragging about their ‘excellent’ coordination with Russia in Syria. (Implying similar objectives are shared by Israel and Russia in Syria. Yeah, right..)
Hezbollah are growing in stature and achieving respect and admiration from an ever-increasing pool of nations. But they are tied up to a degree in Syria.
Lebanon is in pretty bad shape.
Two ingredients that make an opportunistic Israeli attack more, rather than less likely.
I suspect a warning has been given – from VVP.
And there won’t be any ‘gifting’ of the GH either, (‘so don’t go in there if we are in the vicinity..’)
@Rabbi Aleksandr Boroda, declared that “Russian Jews face ‘grave dangers’ if Putin is ousted”.
Was the meeting a subtle reminder that Jews should stay ‘regular’ if they want to ‘live in Russia safely and happily’? Not to peddle the ‘antisemitism’ card.
It coincided with the visit of Netanyahu, who, it should be noted, was ‘invited’ for ‘serious discussions’, although the spin of the press was that Bibi was the one going there to deliver the tough talk and draw ‘red lines’.
It appears that Russia has neutralized Israel’s main WMD*. Israel knows this, hence Netanyahu does not play the Holcaust Histrionics in Russia. Russia also knows the full details of the ISIS-Turkey-Israel oil program, which puts Netanyahu on the defensive.
* WMD – Weapon of Mass Distraction, e.g the accusation of being an anti-semite.
Some more details came up recently about Netanyahu visit to Moscow. About the true nature of “the problems”.
“Netanyahu, Putin met amid reports of aerial incidents over Syria”.
Russian fighter jets have reportedly fired at Israeli aircraft at least twice, while in recent days a Russian jet was scrambled to intercept an IAF plane; Kremlin denies reports, by Yoav Zitun, Reuters , 04.22.16, 14:02 / Israel News:
The issues was reportedly raised during Israeli President Reuven Rivlin’s visit to Moscow, when Putin claimed this was the first he had heard of it.
Then a few days ago, a Russian fighter jet was scrambled to intercept an Israeli aircraft for an unknown reason. There was no contact made between the planes, and the Israeli plane carried on its way.
Asked about the alleged incidents, however, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said: “In this case, Israeli press reports are far from reality.”
But Netanyahu, in remarks published by Israeli reporters whom he briefed by phone, said “there have been problems” regarding Israeli military freedom of operation in Syria.
He gave no details, but said: “If you don’t deal with the friction, it could develop into something more serious.”
“I came here with one main goal – to strengthen the security coordination between us so as to avoid mishaps, misunderstandings and unnecessary confrontations,” Netanyahu said ahead of the three-hour meeting with Putin, which focused on the situation in Syria and particularly on its border with Israel.
Putin told Netanyahu that he was happy the two countries were having regular contacts at the highest ranks, and noted the security cooperation between Moscow and Jerusalem was necessary because of the complex situation in the region.
“During the meeting, it was agreed that GOC Air Force Maj.-Gen. Amir Eshel and my Military Secretary, Brig.-Gen. Eliezer Toledano, will hold a special meeting with the Russian Defense Minister and several other generals. They will meet and discuss – in a detailed and efficient manner – the coordination between our militaries and several other issues that have recently arisen,” he said following the meeting.
Again, the visit was requested by Putin so the “Israel’s prime minister urged Russian President Vladimir Putin on Thursday to further strengthen preventive safety measures between their respective military forces operating in Syria.” is simple posturing.
It looks rather as a serious warning to Israel, possibly conveyed also through the agency of the Jewish Agency er… Congress.
The World Jewish Congress (WJC) was vocal in efforts to repeal United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379, which was adopted on November 10, 1975 and held “that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination”.
The WJC Executive characterized the resolution as an “attempt to defame Zionism by equating it with imperialism, colonialism, racism, and apartheid, […] amounting to incitement to racism and racial hatred.” All communities and organizations affiliated to the Congress were urged to take immediate action to mobilize public opinion against the resolution. Israel made revocation of Resolution 3379 a condition of its participation in the Madrid Peace Conference of 1991. Resolution 3379 was revoked in 1991 by UN General Assembly Resolution 4686.
Robert Lauder is a well known American Zionist.
When President of Russia Vladimir Putin says:
“Mr Lauder, friends, it is a great pleasure to welcome you to Moscow” what does this mean?
Is Putin afraid of Zionists ?
Is Putin trying to court Zionists ?
Is Putin playing a game and trying control Zionists ?
Is Putin trying to buy time with them ?
Putin seems to know the power of the Zionists and Israel, he knows what they are capable of and knows that they are much more powerful than any US president.
He knows they have a grip over the world economy which is tied to Russia and China.
I am just wondering whether he really considers them as “friends”, respects them, or is just lying to them ?
Exactly, what does Putin hope to gain here? There are certainly issues Lauder would like Putin to support such as Israeli sovereignty over the Golan Heights and opposition to BDS but what does Putin hope to gain?
If he just wants them to like him, it’s a tough sell. Russia is regarded as an historic enemy of the Jewish people.
‘Step into my parlor’ said the spider to the fly.
Be patient and pick the fights that you can win, that’s what VVP is doing. He’s not going to leave power with a pension to retire in California as he’s pissed off so many powers.
In a way, this is like watching a mongoose sizing up a cobra.
This comment from Putin to Netanyahoo at their recent meeting sounds like sarcasm to me – what do you guys think?
ladimir Putin: It is noteworthy that the Israeli Prime Minister, speaking here at the Kremlin, has congratulated not just Russia’s Jewish community but Jewish people around the world.
Russian has a bright future, unless US goes nuclear on them. Compare that to Europe and US. So what better nation for the fractional bankers cozy up to, where they can hide in plain sight with their proverbial get out of jail guilt card. Also Putin has been a thorn in the Anglo Zionist one world dream. Keep those enemies close(r). Hopefully this works both ways.
I’ve seen some time ago a list of Jews in Stalin’s government and all were Jewish except two or three of different nationalities: Dzierzynski and one Armenian I think. Anyway it was a Jewish mafia all the same.
You can’t have a state the size and power of modern Russia based on ethnic nationalism (or as you call it “racism” [eye roll]). This is the real strategic reason for why Putin doesn’t tolerate it in Russia (and I believe it’s a wise strategy). He is far too intelligent to buy the “we are all the same” BS coming from the same people trying to destroy Russia and their Trotskyist “racist” (what does that even mean?) accusations.
On the other hand if we were to take your statement on “racism” to its practical conclusion then Russia would have to open its borders to the entire third world, since the same world Jewish population whose word you are giving weight to has declared more or less explicitly that is a requirement for all states to prove they are not “racist” (with the exception, of course, of Israel).
” Sometimes, we forget to say thank you, but now, I would like to say thank you, thank you for what you have done here for Jewish people. When I first met with you, there was still a great deal of anti-Semitism: there was a great deal of attacks on synagogues, there was officially some anti-Semitism, cemeteries were being defaced.
And we spoke about that, and you told me that you would change this. And you did, and today, there is a minimum of anti-Semitism. I understand that Jewish people live here very, very well, and our synagogues, we have received back synagogues that were taken away.”
Jews always start with this type of victimization. It’s Judiasm 101. Not very effective btw.
Also the World organised MSM are always crying about ‘not enough Muslims are coming out and condemning Terrorism’; as if terrorism is an Islamic monopoly. Why doesn’t this Jewish organized umbrella group disown and condem Jewish /Zionist crimes in Israel/Palestine that are carried out in the name of Judiaism?(emphasis added). After all, the vast majority of the World has and continues to condem said crimes.
Putin should have practiced some Judo on this charlatan Mr. Lauder, subdued him and thrown him from the Kremlin window. That would have sent a nice message to Jews to start evolving into the International Human race.
Saker,I find this sort of thing loathsome. I dont’ subscribe to the idea that any “other point of view” is an acceptable thing.
What we put into our minds, we end up becoming.
Did you know that, during WWII, it was illegal to make statements of a negative nature regarding the war effort, in UK? That to spread “despondency, gloom, disbelief in the cause ” etc was a chargeable offence? It’s because the leaders knew then,as we should know now, that what we allow ourselves to believe will form what happens.
I do not believe that any honourable, honest person, can have the smallest belief that Putin is as so many now are coming to Saker to say, as this POE does, below.
it gets harder and harder, frankly, to tick “approve” when the content makes me sick.
I can cope – sort of – with Dennis and his abberent sex. But not this.
I am sending it to you, because left to my self, I would
bin” it.
I’m off on holiday for 15 days in Canada, prior to my trip to Russia.
Wish you well, stay strong.
Regards
Pamela aka mod-PS aka Isabella.
Is Putin on our side or on the side of the tribe? Yes, on our side if we are naive enough to think that he alone makes the decisions. Not on our side, if we take into consideration that the ‘front man’ (or woman) in politics most often is just a puppet of a hidden hand (cabal). After some 20 years of access to non-censured information on the net, we have a pretty good insight of the situation.
* The Canadian Jewish academician Henry Makow tell us that the World is run by Satanic Jews, who takes their order from a somewhat more obscure figure named Satan (in Freemasonry Lucifer or Baphomet).
* Makow also very often tell us that International Bankers run the world, but that does not seem logical as Freemasonry (NWO), on their Georgia Guidestones tells us that the future World population will be under 500 million. That make it necessary to eliminate about 93 % of the current world population, ie. the alleged rulers of the world (banksters) would eliminate 93 % of their bank customers. – No, not very logical to me.
* Putin and most of the other head of state around the World belong to secret societies or Freemasonry, who makes Putin and others tools of the power (Satanism) behind Freemasonry, or more directly to the individuals pulling the strings of their backs.
* Makow and other researchers of Freemasonry have learned us that Freemasonry is just a tool or mechanism for World conquest (NWO).
* David Icke have learned us the that one of major mechanism of controlling politicians i to get them involved in unethical activities or crime, that make them suitable to blackmail. One such activity is pedophilia.
* We have learned that conflict is the major tool for the dark forces to further their agenda, and that the main plan for the conquest of Mother Earth is the Three World wars of Satanist and Grand Master of Freemasonry, Albert Pike.
* We have also learned that the dark forces always try to control both sides in a conflict or war.
* We have learned about the major political ‘tools’ of the satanic forces, as the ‘Tyranny of the small steps’ (probably the most effective political tool ever), Hegelian dialectic and false flag operations.
* We have learned that the so very exalted political system named “democratic” is just a chimera, controlled by the entity controlling media (the tribe), and by that controlling the opinions and the votes of the populations in ‘democratic’ countries.
So back to the question if Putin is on our side and can save us from the machination of the tribe pushing us like lemmings towards the cliff (WW3)? Well, he might have an interest to save Russia and the world from the carnage the tribe seems so eager to serve us, but to do that he have to be aware of how the world really is ruled and by who, and I doubt that he is. Secondary, as a member to Freemasonry he have been given an oath to always obey to the orders of the craft, and he also probably is ‘chained’ to the interests of the cabal that put him on the pedestal.
Therefore I can’t see Putin free to help us out even if he might want it. As Saker have written, he may be seeking time to be stronger relative to the tribe, but I doubt that he will out-chess the tribe in this geopolitical play.
To get access to an understanding how the world is run I recommend Putin to read the book “Under the Sign of the Scorpion” by former Soviet (Estonian) dissident Jyri Lina. The book tell us the real history of the ‘revolutions’ of France and Russia, and the roles of Freemasonry and banksters behind it. This is one, if not the most, suppressed book in the world. You would not find it in a book shelver or in a library, and net outfits as Amazon ‘censor’ the book by a very high price. The best way to get this book is to seek out the authors homepage.