Having forced myself to watch the full “performance” of Pussy Riot’s “punk prayer” and “Sam Bacile”‘s short movie “Innocence of Muslims” I want to share with you some thoughts I had on issue of blasphemy.
Wikipedia defines blasphemy as “the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for a religious deity or the irreverence towards religious or holy persons or things“. Dictionary.com offers this definition: “impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things“. Merriam-Webster online offers this definition: “the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God“. To be honest, I find all three of these definition very unsatisfactory.
Think of it: did the Rioting Pussies or Mr “Bacile” really intend to “insult God” or show irreverence or contempt for something holy? I submit that this was not at all their intention. First, for all their denials about that, there is no doubt in my mind that the Rioting Pussies are not religious at all. And since they are clearly not really religious, they can hardly have wanted to insult a God they don’t even believe in. As for Mr Bacile, he was not trying to produce a critique, however harsh, of the Prophet Mohamed or Islam.
Frankly, if we just look at the form of the message of the “punk prayer” and the movie “Innocence of Muslims” it is absolutely clear that to the extend there is a message conveyed by these performances, it is the form of the message itself. And since it is rather obvious that the “message” is not addressed to any God or Prophet, whom is it addressed to?
Here, again, we need to look at the message conveyed, in this case, by the form and ask ourselves a simple question: what type of person would be most impacted by it? Put differently, not only is the real message of these performances to be found in the form, the real “addressee” of this message is also to be found in the form. It is rather obvious to me that the form of these performances was chosen to primarily to elicit a reaction from Orthodox Christians in the first instance and Muslims in the second one. A secondary audience to whom the message might have been targeted was what I would describe as “agnostics/atheists with a poor sense of music, movies or humor”. I will immediately set aside this latter group because as far as I am concerned there is no issue here at all: if they like it, let them enjoy it. I personally don’t care about it, nor do I think that anybody else does.
So now we can turn to the core of it all. We have a message whose contents are conveyed by the form which is aimed at religious people. The purpose of the message is hardly to convince these religious people of anything, if only because of the lack of objective content of the form chosen here: all that matters is the form.
Now, by definition, the interpretation of a message contained in the form of a performance is a rather subjective thing and not something which can be logically demonstrated. Just like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is any message who is not expressed in words but in the form of a message to be interpreted. There could therefore be many possible interpretations of these messages, but I think that it would be really fair and very appropriate to summarize the message conveyed by the Rioting Pussies and Mr Bacile in the following short phrase: “Fuck you Christians!” and “Fuck you Muslims!”.
I did not choose “fuck you” for the profanity or because it is so common, but because it is really very similar to the “messages” conveyed by the Rioting Pussies and Mr. “Bacile”. When somebody says “fuck you” he/she does not really suggest an attempt at having sexual intercourse with oneself any more than “motherfucker” suggests that the target of the expression has been observed having sexual intercourse with his/her mother. Here again, the message is in the form and, as is the case with any insult, the real message is very simple “I hate you”.
So this is the real and true core of the Rioting Pussies’ “punk prayer” and Mr “Bacile”‘s short movie: its a message of pure seething hatred of, and contempt for, Orthodox Christians in the first instance, and Muslims in the second one.
Now let’s look at the reaction. In the first case, Russian prosecutors charged the Rioting Pussies for “hate-motivated hooliganism”. I cannot imagine a more appropriate designation.
In the second instance, Muslim crowds assaulted US diplomatic facilities. In the first case we have a state acting, the in the second case we have a spontaneous act of violence of a crowd. Superficially, one could argue that the Russian response was much more sophisticated and “proper”, but that would overlook some fundamental differences: the Russians had the guilty party rapidly arrested whereas in the second case even the identity the guilty party was not established. Furthermore, in the first case the committed action was a criminal offense committed inside the jurisdiction of Russian courts whereas in the second instance, the action was committed in the virtual world of the Internet, far away from any legal context.
I am not defending the Muslim rioters who ended up killing a number of people which had nothing to do with the production of this movie – what they did was stupid and immoral – but I do want to point out that the Russians had a good way of responding whereas these rioting Muslims did not. Besides, crowds cannot be held to the same standards as states anyway. While the latter is ruled by laws and policies, the former acts spontaneously and, usually, without much discernment. This does, however, raise a fascinating question: how should states and individuals respond when subjected to type of psychological/spiritual assault we have witnessed in the “punk prayer” and “Innocence of Muslims”?
I think that first and foremost a very simple and undeniable fact needs to be established here: modern “blasphemies” which are clearly not aimed at deities or sacred figures, are in reality aimed at specific social groups and they therefore constitute the quintessential psychological hate crime.
And “psychological” does not mean unreal or somehow easily dismissible. Not at all. A psychological hate crime is to a physical hate crime what psychological torture is to physical torture: definitely not a lesser form of assault and arguably a worse one.
Furthermore, a psychological hate crime differs from a regular insult in that it is aimed at a specific social group of people and not at an individual. And since this hate crime is clearly aimed at inflicting the maximal possible psychological or spiritual distress upon its victim, it is a hate crime of the highest order of magnitude.
Finally, and this is absolutely essential to understand, that none of the above is in any way related to a free speech issue.
Let’s take Christianity and Islam for example. Educated Christians and educated Muslims are perfectly aware of the undeniable fact that these two religions have highly critical views of each other. The main and irreconcilable difference between the two faiths is their mutually exclusive view of Christ: according to Christians, Christ was a God-Man (theantropos) whereas Islam sees Him as (only) a (revered but still human) Prophet (even the Prophet Mohamed is considered by Islam as human and fallible!).
That is usually the “nice” way of putting things. The “not so nice” way would be to say that Christians consider Muslims to be heretics while Muslims consider Christians to be idolaters. Now, while concepts such as “heretic” and “idolater” can be hurled at a person as an insult, they are primarily perfectly proper terms terms which convey a specific religious category. So in a theological discussion between educated Christians and educated Muslims such terms could be used without conveying any sense of insult at all simply because they are faithful renditions of a religious belief, not in any way an expression of personal hostility, dislike or, much less so, hatred.
The reality is that the vast majority of Christians and the vast majority of Muslims are aware, to some degree or another, that their respective religions have deep disagreements. Likewise educated Muslims and educated Christians are fully aware of the fact that their religions have many fundamental and irreconcilable differences. And yet, the history of the Middle-East clearly proves that these two religions can, and have, lived in peace as neighbors. Yes, at times, both religions have committed appalling acts of violence against each other, but these were the exception, not the rule, and such actions where typically the actions of rather vicious rulers inclined to violence against any opponents, not just one religious group (Ivan the Terrible and his massacre of Muslims in Kazan is a good example of that). What is certain is that the reality of the fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity did not result in an endless cycle of war, hatred, violence or even outrage. If Christianity and Islam are mutually exclusive – they are – this does not mean that Christians and Muslims cannot live together – they can and the have.
This just proves that if Christians and Muslims can accept even intense polemical challenges from each other, they sure can accept any kind of rational polemical challenge from atheists, agnostics or any other group or persons. If the Rioting Pussies really wanted to convey some kind of message to the Russian Orthodox Church about Putin or if Mr Bacile really wanted to convey some kind of message to Muslims about his negative view of the Prophet’s personality or life, they could have done so without triggering much of a reaction, if only because the vast majority of Orthodox Christians and Muslim don’t care one bit about what the Pussies or Mr Bacile think.
But that is the problem, is it not?
These modern blasphemers wanted the maximum of attention, the maximal “shock effect”, the maximum of visibility. And their way to get it was to deliberately aim at designing and executing the maximal possible insult conceivable. This is exactly why their actions were, by design, the quintessential hate crime. Causing offense, expressing hatred, is not the means here, it is sole and only end sought.
Now, as a Orthodox Christian I don’t believe in a religious codification of punishment for blasphemers. I know that Christ, when He was alive, was spat on, insulted, derided and tortured to death. There is no need for me, as a Christian, to “defend” Him from anything, including insults. Furthermore, my religion tells me that not only does a blasphemy fail to ever reach its intended target, it spiritually “boomerangs” right back upon the person who uttered it. So as far as I am concerned, to protect social groups from hate crimes is Cesar’s business, not the Church’s (whose business it should be to educate Christians about the type of spiritual pathology which breeds hate in all its forms). I am quite happy that the Russian state stuck the Rioting Pussies in jail, but I am equally happy that the Orthodox Church, as such, had no role in this process.
Islam takes a different view on this matter and its not my business at this point to express a value judgment on the Islamic position on blasphemy. What I will say is that Mr Bacile, Mr Rushdie and all the other folks who put all their skills and energy in a deliberate and determined attempt to maximally insult Muslims were perfectly aware of the fact that the people whom they were insulting would be absolutely incensed by these actions and that their religion prescribed specific penalties (including death) for such actions. I therefore feel just as sorry for them and their predicament as I would for somebody setting up a tent on rail tracks: yes, I am “sorta kinda” feel sorry for them but, frankly, not much, simply because they did it to themselves. If somebody inadvertently insulted Islam or the Prophet Mohamed and then suffered the consequences of doing so, I would really feel sorry for that person. But when somebody deliberately insults Islam or the Prophet Mohamed to express his/her hatred of Muslims as a group, I cannot feel very sorry for that person at all. I would feel the same way if somebody expressed hatred for any other social group either. Fundamentally, I simply don’t find hatred a legitimate form of speech which would need to be protected.
And before we get sidetracked into a sterile discussion “what is hate speech what is opinion” let me say this: while some opinions can offend, it is not their main purpose; while polemics can be very virulent, they are aimed at ideas, not people. So to say that “your hate speech is my opinion” is totally dishonest. Any person with a minimum of intelligence and honesty will immediately concede that telling the two apart is really easy.
As a Christian, it would never occur to me to censor any opinion (as, I hope, this blog and my comments moderation prove). And I would vehemently oppose any attempt by any group or individuals, including Muslims, to censor my own free speech. But I do not claim the right to deliberately spew hatred against any other group or person, nor do I support anybody else’s right to do so.
I hope that I have convincingly deconstructed the canard about Pussy Riot’s “punk prayer” or Sam “Bacile”‘s “Innocence of Muslims” being expressions of free speech. Likewise, I hope that I have shown that those who are now repackaging the authors of these “performances” as heroic martyrs for free speech are, in reality, themselves guilty of apology of hate crimes. Frankly, this is exactly what I would expect from the plutocracy ruling the West and its prostitute corporate media. However, I do want to believe that most people in the West can be convinced of the fact that this is not a religious issue, nor a free speech issue, and that the only really evil party to be condemned in these cases is one spewing its hatred.
The Saker
Hi Saker,
Excellent article as usual. Just one or two clarifications:
1) You wrote: “I am not defending the Muslim rioters who ended up killing a number of people”. The folks who murdered the diplomats in Benghazi were not reacting to the movie per se: Al-Qaeda or its affiliate just used the protest as a cover. (Of course you already know this, but it’s an important clarification).
[However, if you are aware of some other incident where the actual protesters killed innocent people, then I stand corrected.]
In the same vein, the protests in Yemen and many other places are more a reaction to American imperialism than the film itself. A case of “adding insult to injury” as they say.
2) You wrote: “even the Prophet Mohamed is considered by Islam as human and fallible!”
Actually, only Wahhabis and a minority of Sunnis believe that. For Shīʿī Muslims and most Sunnis the Prophet is both human and infallible. Indeed all prophets are infallible, and Muslims reject the stories of sin attributed to the prophets of Old Testament (Lot etc) as inventions of some of the ancient rabbis to justify their own lapses.
Peace
Just a couple of point, from a Shi’a Islamic point of view: The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings on him and his family) Fatima (daughter of Prophet Muhammad) the 12 Imams, and all Prophets, are considered infallible (or, masoom) … This has important implications for Shi’a Islam…
2. Prophet Jesus (peace and blessings upon him) is also regarded as the Word of God, and Spirit of God…
3. Your discussion on hate speech as one directed at specific groups is an important point that correctly describes the rationale behind the understanding of “blasphemy” in the Islamic tradition.
While there are modernist Muslims who always come up with the refrain “The Prophet suffered so many insults, and did not respond… why all this outrage?”
What these modernists do not get is that the Prophet did not respond to those insults that were directed specifically at him as a person (i.e. a personal insult). He, however, did not accept (he may have been forced into not being able to respond during the period when Muslims were very weak) violation of rights of anyone else, or that of his community…
Dear Saker,
I absolutely and fully concur with your superb analysis here wall to wall. The best proof of what you are describing is found in the peaceful coexistence of ALL religions and various faiths in Lebanon for centuries. In fact, Christians, Moslems and Jews lived peacefully for over 1400 years, before the creation of the Zionist entity in 1948.
Today, the Pope is in Lebanon for three days to reaffirm that glaring fact about Lebanon: A message of coexistence and harmony to the Whole World, instead of hate crimes and blasphemy…
Best,
Joe
@Ishamid and anonymous:
First, thank you both for these clarifications, I stand corrected.
May I please follow up with a request for clarification?
My statement about the Prophet being fallible comes from speaking to a close and dear friend of mine, a Kazakh national and pious Sunni Muslim and, I always believed, a well educated faithful who told me that Muslims did believe that the Prophet Mohammed could sin and that therefore not all the actions of his life did constitute a norm to imitate for Muslims. Was my friend mistaken or did I misunderstand him? Would it be better to say the following:
“According to Islam the Prophet Mohammed was not sinless as an individual but infallible in matters of doctrine, of faith”? Or am I still misunderstanding this?
I might have difficulties with this because of my own religion according to which only God is sinless and infallible.
Coming back to my Kazakh friend, he definitely had some political sympathies for Osama Bin-Laden and he may have he picked up some Wahabi views on the way, but on the other hand he also really detested the Chechen Wahabis. He told me that Kazakh Muslims are generally very anti-Wahabi and much more inclined to Sufism. However, he also added that most religious institutions in Kazakhstan (these conversation took place in 1998-2000) were paid for by Saudi money…
Prophet Jesus (peace and blessings upon him) is also regarded as the Word of God, and Spirit of God…
Is the “Word of God” something unique to Christ or are all Apostles/Messengers of God referred to as “Word of God”?
Thank you both for providing clarifications and corrections to my very approximate and often outright mistaken views of Islam. Even though I try very hard to not misrepresent Islamic teachings, the fact that I am an outsider and not somebody truly steeped in Islamic teachings inevitably shows up. Your help here is therefore really invaluable and I am very grateful to both of you!
The Saker
@Joe:Today, the Pope is in Lebanon for three days to reaffirm that glaring fact about Lebanon: A message of coexistence and harmony to the Whole World, instead of hate crimes and blasphemy…
With all due respect, my friend, I have to point out here that I do not believe that the Papacy ever lived in peace with other religions and that the current peace and love oriented policy of the Vatican has much more to do with a change in the power equation than to a deep belief in peaceful coexistence.
It is a undeniable historical fact that as soon as the Franks created the Papacy and separated themselves from Christendom they immediately developed a theology of universal domination. If you have any doubts about that at all, just read this wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatus_papae
(Do I need to provide an explanation to what degree this entire text is a wholesale abandonment of traditional (patristic) views and teachings?)
It is no wonder that the First Crusade followed almost immediately.
Frankly, when I hear Muslims today speak of “Crusaders” I can only wholeheartedly agree with them. From a cultural point of view, the “Frankish world view” is exactly what is ruling the Anglosphere today, the only difference is that modern Crusaders have now allied themselves with Jewish interests.
As for the Pope himself, he took his name Benedict in honor of Pope Benedict XV who was a vicious and heinous enemy of the Orthodox Church who actually went as far as to ally himself with the Bolsheviks in the hope of finally crushing Russian Orthodoxy (see here for a good summary: http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/vatican_russia.aspx).
Likewise, I very much doubt that Rabbinical Judaism is capable of peaceful coexistence with anybody if only because it teaches that Jews and Gentiles do not share a common essence: the former a born of God while the latter are born of the earth and stand somewhere between humans (i.e. Jews) and animals.
I am not in any way implying that individual Roman Catholics or Jews do not want or cannot coexist in peace with their neighbors, I am only saying that as religious doctrines both the Papacy and Rabbinical Judaism strongly feel that they have a God given right to rule the universe and that all others must submit or perish.
One more element: I have once written a research paper on the topic of the status of Orthodox Christians under Islamic and Papist rule. It was a historical overview of how these two religions treated Orthodox Christians. I would say that without any doubt at all, and by a wide margin, Orthodox Christians had it better under Islamic rule. True, the Ottomans were amazingly brutal and repressive, but no more that the Ustasha of Pavelic (who, I remind you, were acting with the full blessing and, I would even say, inspiration, of the Vatican!). Clearly, the Ottoman problem is just that, an *OTTOMAN* problem, not an Islamic one, even if the Ottomans acted in the name of Islam. As for Arab Islam, or even Persian Islam, they at least guaranteed a 2nd rate status to Orthodox Christians, something which the Papacy never did. For example, Orthodox Christians had it MUCH better in Persia than under the Polish occupation of the Ukraine. And I could go on with examples like that for hours.
I hope I did not upset you with what I wrote, but this blog is about being truthful, even if some truths are painful to hear or to say.
Kind regards,
The Saker
Dear Saker,
I think that I pushed the wrong button here, but I am not at all offended by what you rightly say about history of the Papacy etc.
What the Pope is doing in Lebanon is actually riding on the terrific coexistence and respect to other religions in our own traditions and values, even if we do not agree with their teachings…He is certainly not coming to teach us anything we do not practice already…A lot is riding on this “Lebanese Message” being propagated to others in the World…, regardless what the Papacy had done in the past or is doing now…
Best,
Joe
“According to Islam the Prophet Mohammed was not sinless as an individual but infallible in matters of doctrine, of faith”?
Rather, in Islam the Prophet (S) is sinless and infallible in all spheres of life: belief and praxis; cosmology and wisdom:
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And he does not speak from his own fancy: It [his speech] is naught but a revelation that is revealed. [53:3–4]
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The Prophet (S), his Family (S), and the rest of the Prophets and Chosen ones (such as Mary Mother of Jesus) (S) are not God, sons of God, or gods in their own right:
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…but rather they are most honored servants: They do not get ahead of Him in their speech and it is only through His Command that they act [21:26]
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“Is the “Word of God” something unique to Christ or are all Apostles/Messengers of God referred to as “Word of God”?”
In a way each of the Prophets is a “word” of God. The Qur’an, of course is also the Word of God. But among the Prophets the title is usually given formally to Jesus (S). The reason the title ‘Word of God’ is formally given to Jesus is because of what the Qur’an says about him:
1) God spoke Jesus, did not beget him:
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When he has decided a matter [Jesus in this case] he says to it, “Become!” and it comes to be.
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2) Jesus spoke revelation in the cradle to clear his Mother of the false charges spread about her.
[Aside: It is interesting that, poll-wise, a greater percentage of Muslims believe that Jesus was actually born of a virgin than Christians.]
“I might have difficulties with this because of my own religion according to which only God is sinless and infallible.”
As human beings they are capable of sin but do not do so because they have reached the stage of communion with the Spirit of Holiness, which protects them. The word for infallible in Islam is, in fact, ‘maʿṣum’, which means “preserved”, “protected”, or “hindered” (from sin and the like). The Spirit of Holiness is akin to what in English is called conscience, except that it is a much more sublime and powerful force or energy. At its highest degree it is the vehicle that transmits divine knowledge to the one in communion with it.
The early Essenes (with whom John and Jesus in all likelihood were raised for a mojor part of their early lives) and the followers of Jesus from amongst them the Ebionites (among the non-Pauline Christians) also believed in Prophetic infallibility. They also believed the Old Testament had been corrupted etc.
“However, he also added that most religious institutions in Kazakhstan (these conversation took place in 1998-2000) were paid for by Saudi money”
There you go! Wahhabism has totally despiritualized Sunni Islam to the point where it is not unjust to consider the former a kind of materialism. It is not a coincidence that many Sunni engineers and other scientistic-minded Muslims have gravitated towards Wahhabism to one degree or other. Unfortunately, due to their monies they have been rather successful in coopting much of Sunnism to their way (especially in places like the old USSR where communism had destroyed so much of the traditional Sunni institutions).
Peace
@Joe:I think that I pushed the wrong button here Guilty as charged! :-) I do have a big big big BIG bone to pick with the Papacy, I cannot deny that. Which always puts me in an awkward position when I talk to Roman Catholics which I consider as friends.
but I am not at all offended by what you rightly say about history of the Papacy etc
And thank you for that, sincerely.
What the Pope is doing in Lebanon is actually riding on the terrific coexistence and respect to other religions in our own traditions and values, even if we do not agree with their teachings..
God willing my friend, God willing. But I have to say that I came to a very sad conclusion myself: there is no possible coexistence with the Wahabis whose unique combination of blind hatred, insane ideology and absolutely phenomenal propensity to violence is fundamentally incompatible with any peaceful coexistence with others (nevermind that they are also US puppets, whether willingly or unwillingly). To such crazies the only response can be “desist or die”. I don’t like that, but that is the conclusion I have come to, however reluctantly. And I am very afraid that they are now setting their sight on Lebanon, if only because Lebanon is the homeland of Hezbollah whom the Wahabis hate more than any other group or movement. I hope that the real patriotic forces of Lebanon, whether Muslim or Christians will unite to form a united front against Wahabism, but when I see who much Siniora, Hariri and their likes are sold out to the USA and paid for by KSA money, I am really really concerned. Every time I see their “fat cat” faces, it literally turns my stomach to thing that this hedonistic degenerates are the vector by which Wahabism is slowly but constantly seeping into Lebanon…
God help us all and thank God for Hezbollah!!
@Ishamid: thanks a lot for these very interesting clarifications. I did get it wrong and, as always, I am delighted to have corrected a misconception.
Aside: It is interesting that, poll-wise, a greater percentage of Muslims believe that Jesus was actually born of a virgin than Christians
LOL! Oh yes, that is so and that is really a sad reflection of how much modern “Christianity” has drifted away from its original roots.
As human beings they are capable of sin but do not do so because they have reached the stage of communion with the Spirit of Holiness,
Very interesting.
due to their monies they have been rather successful in coopting much of Sunnism to their way (especially in places like the old USSR where communism had destroyed so much of the traditional Sunni institutions).
Exactly, and this is why instead of courting the Saudis and their agents all the states of the former USSR should actively foster the financial independence of *local* and *traditional* Islamic institutions. I know that Russia has very deliberately taken that course, but I don’t know whether this is also the case in Kazakhstan. But since Nursultan Nazarbayev is a really smart fox – he has managed to stay in power since 1991 – I suspect that he also understands that very well. Alas, the rest of the region (including Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kirgizstan and even Tadjikistan) seem to constantly zig zag between on one hand their fear of Wahabi insurgencies and, on the other, their desire to please the USA.
I wonder how the Chinese are dealing with that issue…..
Kind regards and peace to you too,
The Saker
Hi Saker,
A very useful discussion from PressTV about the movie and various ideas as to the motivation behind it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI7ul3v_LHI&feature=g-all-u
Dear Saker,
Thanks for your response. I fully agree with you wall to wall again. But I want you to relax and rest assured that the situation in Lebanon is under control. These crazies and thugs you describe so well are only good at rioting, hooliganism and burning restaurants etc. but they are absolute cowards when it comes to confrontation… Should they attempt that strategy at any point, Hezbollah will eat them alive in no time, hence their reluctance to attempt anything, except a bomb here or there…, maximum a suicide bomber here or there…When I talk about coexistence and respect to others in Lebanon, which is a very long tradition…, it does not include those despicable crazies for sure. They are despised by all,except for their pay-masters and the poor gullible.
Best,
Joe
Funnily enough, since there has been some mention about the high status of Jesus in Islam, I believe Sheikh Bahmanpour – who was one of the panel on that PressTV programme I just linked, wrote the script for the Blessed Saint Mary movie.
Here’s the link (english subs), thought yourself/everyone might find it interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48UPtECW6Hs&feature=related
@Anonymous Lurker: thanks a lot for the links, I downloaded both the show and the movie and I will watch them later today or early next week. thanks a lot for the pointer, very interesting stuff for sure!
Joe: I hope you are right my friend, but the risk is of course that these folks might bring in foreign elements such as Afghans, Chechens or Iraqis who might be comparatively better fighters (even if no match of Hezbollah). Also, there is the traditional Hezbollah reluctance at ever using force against their fellow Lebanese (even if interspersed with foreign nationals?). However, I will never forget the fantastic show of force Hezbollah made the day it put its fighters on every key point in Beirut, do you remember that day? What an amazing show of force that was! Did they not also surround Harari’s or Siniora’s private residence that day?
Anyway, you and I agree and let us hope that Lebanon will not be next to fall to these crazed thugs.
Dear Saker,
YES, I agree with you. But rest assured that even if the Crazies bring any foreign fighters, ANY, they will be crushed to bits in any confrontation with the real McCoys…should it come to that.
Coming back to that glorious day you mentioned above, it was May 7th 2008…, I want you and everyone to know that NO Hezbollah fighters to speak of were involved at all, but the operation as such was under their guidance and precise Intel…The people who were put on the streets of Beirut that day were mostly AMAL followers of Nabih Berri…But the operation was so well run that it was over in few hours…despite the fact that the HARIRI/March14th thugs had brought into Beirut thousands of supposedly-Fighters from all over Lebanon…and they were guided by foreign intelligence elements from abroad… including Westerners…, who ran like cowards into hiding within hours…
There was only few casualties from the Resistance in the mountains, at the hands of Walid Jumblatt’s CIA-MOSSAD thugs, mainly because of better terrain conditions…
Best,
Joe
@Joe:The people who were put on the streets of Beirut that day were mostly AMAL followers of Nabih Berri
REALLY?! I had no idea. That would mean that AMAL has changed a great deal since the days of the Israeli occupation when it was, correct me if I am wrong, collaborating with the Israelis which, in turn, brought some your Shia to create Hezbollah (or I am getting all wrong today?).
I don’t know if you have the time for that, but I will ask nonetheless: could you do a ‘compare and contrast’ of Amal and Hezbollah and evaluate their strengths? Who is their spiritual leader? Was it not the late Sheikh Fadlallah before his death? Who is it now? Finally, can you recommend a good book or article about Amal?
Finally, a dumb but crucial question, at least for me: what would make a Lebanese man choose to join Amal rather than Hezbollah?
Thanks!
@VINEYARDSAKER:
Please stop using Saudi Wahabism as the all encompassing problem as the main supporter of separatism/terrorism in Russia and Eurasia but the pan Turkic/Islamic Gulen movement and the support they receive from the Turkic diasporas in the Mid East, Central Asia and Turkey. The other big pan-Islamic movement recruiting in Russia is the Hizb-ut-Tahrir organisation who regularly appear in Interfax religion reports of trying to set up terrorist cells in Bashkoristan.
Western geopolitical strategy is all about promoting Turkish interests and sphere of influence in the post Soviet era so they can have an alliance of Turkic states based on British Pan –Turanianism that with pump oil and gas through Turkey and the Balkans into Europe.
http://serbianna.com/blogs/michaletos/archives/1223
It was not the Saudis that financed Khattab and Basayavs KLA style incursions into Dagestan but Qatar that is not a Wahabi state.
What the video does show is Muslims predictable and violent reaction to it.
Christians, Jews or even Buddhists would not have reacted in such a violent matter although they would have surely protested.
@Jack:Please stop using…
Jack, I don’t tell you what to say or think (God knows I have shown patience with you and the nonsense you regularly post here!), and I expect you to return me the favor. If you cannot live with that, then open your own blog and write there whatever the hell you want to write. This blog however is my blog and if you don’t like, just ignore it. But don’t come telling me what I have to do (FYI – putting “please” in front of your admonitions does not make them any less obnoxious).
And, for the record, I know your type very well. You parse facts in support of those who might appear to support your prejudices and, unsurprisingly, you find them. Two types of people might be impressed by your “results”: those who agree with you to begin with, and those who do not know the topics you discuss. Make no mistake, to everybody else you are both transparent and boring, hence the very few replies you get here.
There are tons of Islam-hating blogs, forums and websites out there. Why are you wasting your time here?
The Saker
Dear Saker,
You asked very good questions about a subject which is quite complicated.
First of, you got one fact completely wrong in a way…AMAL never directly collaborated with Israel in any way, at least as much as I know!
AMAL was initially created by the late Moussa Al-Sadr. It stands for “Afwaj Al-Mouqawama Al-Islamiyah” or the Islamic Resistance Brigades…When Moussa Al-Sadr was killed by Muammar Qaddafi in 1978 within Libya, in August of 78, on direct orders from CIA-MOSSAD I might add…, because he was an outstanding Leader hellbent on putting all the focus of the Lebanese Resistance against Israel and not against each-other…, he was eliminated from the scene. When that happened, Nabih BERRI took over the AMAL brigades and turned it into his own Bastion of rag-tag fighters, mainly based on utter clientelisme, corruption, family ties, overlords, etc etc. They were efficient in some operations against the Israelis, but they were also notorious in attacking the Palestinian refugee camps at some point in 1984-85, because they had major differences with the thuggish forces of the criminal Yasser Arafat, as much if not more than the Christian Lebanese wars with Arafat’s thugs at times. ALL the actions of the Palestinians in Lebanon in the 70s and 80s were utterly detrimental to Lebanon and to their cause in General…
Coming back to the famous Nabih BERRI, he had a very close association with CIA and especially DIA in his early days during ALL the period of the Lebanon war between 75 and 90, and he was even used by DIA to penetrate the Iranians after the 1979 Revolution in Iran in some operations… He holds a US Green Card and he had many businesses in the US/Michigan I believe, including a large contingent of Gas stations…The Americans still mostly describe him as: “Our Man”…BUT, BUT, BUT
since the ascendance of the Resistance of Hezbollah, especially after 2000 and the Valiant Liberation of the South of Lebanon UNCONDITIONALLY from Israel, he mostly fell into line under the wings of Hezbollah, especially given the incredible Charisma and aura of Hassan Nasrallah since then…He is still utterly corrupt and a feudal overlord…, but he fell into line and would never cross Nasrallah…but they work quite closely together and Nasrallah gives a great deal of deference to Nabih BERRI and calls him all the time our Dear Brother Nabih…
So, after 2000, the AMAL fighters were included in what is called “Saraya Al-Difaa3” or the Lebanese defense leagues if you will, and have received extensive arms and training…and were used very efficiently on that day in 2008 in a lightening operation that decapitated years of preparations by the Hariri thugs…and their CIA-MOSSAD supervisors!!!
Best,
Joe
PS: If you want my gut feeling, Nabih BERRI is still a CIA asset today…, to a certain extent, without double crossing the Resistance, but on matters of Politics and such in Lebanon… :)))
@Joe,
Thanks for all the info. Oh how I wish we could discuss this all face to face… God willing, one day :-)
Let me just limit my reply to you to one question: why would a Lebanese youth today join AMAL rather than Hezbollah?
Cheers,
The Saker
Dear Saker,
Nabih BERRI is an extremely shrewd politician…He is the elected Parliament Speaker for well over 15 years i believe!
The answer to your question lies within my long post…, i.e. BERRI is still a feudal overlord of sorts, utterly corrupt, together with his wife and family, surrounded by a lot of cronies and YES men…, and has a big following, even among the SHIA clergy…. He is still an important Political PILLAR within the Lebanese system of Government and has a very good side to him, when it comes to solving intractable problems. So he still has a Big Public of Shia followers, and the Resistance benefits from that in many ways, by having all the SHIA segments “Covered”…
He also is very close to Walid Jumblatt, the Gemayels and some SUNNIs who can fit the description of “CIA assets in the Closet” just like him… :)))
Best,
Joe
Saker,
I guess I should also say that the good and very disciplined and strong believers go to Hizbullah…
Berri’s religious morals are more relaxed, as well discipline/religious doctrine within the ranks…
Best,
Joe
@VINEYARDSAKER:
I know I messed up the opening paragraph when I was editing it.
I didn’t mean to be offensive but simply using Saudi Wahabism as a scapegoat where it has little to no connection every time there is an incident with Muslims that is quite frequent with the latest ludicrous example of violent protests around the world over some stupid internet trailer for a film that probably does not even exist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QIvBfn78Ck
“You parse facts in support of those who might appear to support your prejudices and, unsurprisingly, you find them. Two types of people might be impressed by your “results”: those who agree with you to begin with, and those who do not know the topics you discuss.”
I do not parse facts or prejudge I go with what the evidence says that why I do not follow or support the nonsense of the 9/11 truth movement with thermite in the buildings or a missile hitting the Pentagon or the government narrative which I usually cite with web links if available.
Here is the section of Qatar financing Khattabs invasion of Dagestan from the 9/11 lawsuit.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/84302/thread/1285612924/last-1285612924/Qatari+regime+financed+Basayeav+and+Khattabs+invasion+of+Dagestan+in+99.