by Mavro Orbini for The Saker Blog
Although expected, call for Belgrade-Pristina dialogue at White House on 2nd of September[1] is suddenly getting on importance after Trump administration masterpieced (unexpected) Israeli-UAE Peace Deal.[2] It seems that US diplomatic coupe is on the way just before US presidential elections. Trump sent letters in 2018 and 2019 to Belgrade and Pristina urging them to reach a “historic accord” for a “comprehensive peace” that would include as its central element “mutual recognition”! [3] What did change from the first cancelled meeting between US mediator Grenel with Serbian/Kosovo parties on 27/08 and one that is just scheduled? Based on Vučic complain that Grenel announced negotiation while he expected talks on economic normalization, it seems that Trump administration is quite serious in its attempt to solve this Balkan dispute for good!
Maybe that was information conveyed by Lavrov to Vučić during June meeting? Vučić was pretty grim during press conference later on. Visit of FM of Russia Lavrov to Belgrade in June might brought warning note to President Vučić as opposition media and politicians claimed (such public statement or warning would be quite undiplomatic from grandmaster of Russia´s diplomacy!). That warning note made it clear that “Kremlin would only support solutions to the Kosovo question acceptable to Belgrade and approved by the UN Security Council.”[4] That note was also directed toward EU and US that there are two inseparable locks for which EU, US and Vučić should find keys. Even if they come to some agreement, on the end of that process is UN Security Council that will ultimately decide on the future of possible agreement.
So where are we?
Over 20 years there were several proposals on the table and the process of negotiation has clearly two phases:
1. Period from 2000-2012 marked Pristina success on all fronts! Everything went smoothly – in 2008 Pristina declared independence from Serbia, in 2010 the International Court of Justice issued its opinion which found that Kosovo’s declaration of independence “did not violate international law”[5] and finally Serbia, with a gun at its head, signed with Pristina on April 2013 Brussels agreement that was an inch from full recognition of Kosovo as sovereign state! Serbia was, then, weak after 12 years of full economic destruction (forced but uncontrolled, wild privatization that first of all, completely destroyed the most important parts of its industry). At that point, it resembled situation of August in 1995 when ethnically cleansing of 250 000 native Serb by Croatia did not gathered more then few thousands protestors in Belgrade! In 2013 population of Serbia was demoralized, with low income, without any hope for better future. It was right moment to force Serbia to recognize independence of Kosovo without any fear of possible public backlash or violent riots against selling of “cradle of Serbia”! By some divine intervention it did not happen! That divine intervention was brought new hardline government in Pristina that wanted to further humiliate Serbia…
2. Period from 2013 to present day marked stalemate that did not work well for Pristina. Suddenly from dead end Serbia, bit by bit, opened up more and more space to try to save what is possible to save. More then dozen of countries, cleverly motivated by Serbia, withdrew their recognition of Kosovo as a state. Kosovo did not get any new recognition (at the moment, at most 92 countries recognize independence of Kosovo). Serbia managed to block several attempts of Kosovo for acceptance at UNESCO, Interpol, etc. Those were painful moments for politicians in Pristina that provoked many irrational decisions that did not serve them well. Most importantly, for the first time Serbia did manage to break monolith Pristina political elites into conflicting parties. It was cleverly done by rising issues that divided Pristina political parties. One of those issues was floating of idea for swap of territories. On Albanian side, eager for such solution was Hashim Thaci[6], president of “Kosovo” and Democratic Party of Kosovo, at the moment indicted for war crimes. That started intra Albanian infighting between Thaci and Ramush Haradinaj[7], then PM of “Kosovo”, president of Alliance for the future of Kosovo, also indicted war criminal that was released from Hague due to lack of witnesses against him (more then 20 of them killed by unidentified executioners). That turmoil was also evident between EU and US making rift in, until then, unified front against Serbia. Another rift between Albanian political parties on Kosovo just surfaced, few days ago, when parliament in Pristina rejected proposed legislation which was intended to enshrine in law support for the Kosovo Liberation Army’s wartime values[8]. For the first time we have civilian political parties having majority in voting over ex- KLA veteran political parties. It is fair to expect that these infightings will serve confronting EU and US interests so at the end of the day Serbia also might have some benefit from it?
What is on the table for negotiation?
SERBIA WILL NEVER RECOGNISE KOSOVO!
It is clear from election in 2000 of the first government of Serbia (after demise of Milosevic) that no prime minister or president of Serbia was willing to sign declaration of independence for Kosovo! Even the most West leaning ruling parties declined to do it. Especially from 2012 until today, ruling party SNS and its supportive media persistently fueled public opinion that there is no way to recognize independence Kosovo! Even that there will be referendum that will decide instead of politicians. No compromise on Kosovo issue is presented every day in many newspapers, TV and radio stations inclining toward ruling party! Today, public outcry would be much louder then in 2012 in case of independence of Kosovo!
SERBIA WILL RECOGNIZE KOSOVO!
It is clear that Serbia is ready to recognize Kosovo but not what is considered Kosovo today, not its territory, nor its independence! Serbia’s political elite knows that it was wrong to incorporate the whole territory of Kosovo (today when speaking of Kosovo it includes two regions Kosovo and Metohija for simplicity) into Serbia in 1912! Unlike Metohija, Kosovo had parts without single Serb and for many years Serbia did not enter its, these de facto, territories![9]
In the last 20 years there were several suggested models for resolution of this conflict:
1. Nebojša Čović , Serbian vice PM, proposed in 2001 that two entities, a Serbian and an Albanian, be established on Kosovo and Metohija. The Serbian entity would be under the protection of the Yugoslav Army and police, while the Albanian entity would have the highest grade of autonomy and stay under the protection of international powers.
2. In 2002, Serbian PM Zoran Đinđić stated that “Serbia has neither the mechanism nor the resources to reintegrate Kosovo into its legal system, or to create a form in which it will be under its sovereignty. The division of the province, therefore, is nothing else than an attempt to rescue what can still be saved.”[10]
3. It seems that in 2008 Slobodan Samardžić, Minister for Kosovo and Metohija, proposed partitioning Kosovo along ethnic lines, asking the UN to ensure that Belgrade can control key institutions and functions in areas where Serbs form a majority[11]. Existence of such proposal was strongly denied by then Serbian government.
4. In 2011 and in 2014, Serbian Interior Minister Ivica Dačić proposed the partition of Kosovo as a solution to the Kosovo dispute.[12]
5. Hashim Thaci, president of “Kosovo” was eager for swap of territories with Serbia – taking south part of Serbia in exchange of northern Serbian enclave in Kosovo[13]
6. Special US envoy for Kosovo, Richard Grenel, dropped Molotov cocktail in June 2020 announcing plans “to create a “little mini-Shenzhen zone” between Kosovo-Serbia”![14] It was immediately dismissed by experts and international community, making laughing stock of illiterate Americano who actually meant mini Schengen!? Grenel never corrected himself and Vučić, in above mention reaction, that he ” expected talks on economic normalization not negotiation…” maybe confirms accuracy of Grenel statement?
Economic model of Shenzhen zone for Kosovo is the only viable option for this criminally infested region! Only rapid and from outside directed economic reconstruction gives hope for better future to young generations of local Albanians. Of course, it is difficult to see how part of political elite with background in drug and human organ trafficking could have any say in such process. For that reason it is of great importance recent distancing in Pristina parliament from KLA veterans and its past. It is time for clean start with new people!
But economic model must be followed by political one that will appease political aspirations of political elites of Pristina but also take in account political limitations of their political colleagues in Belgrade. Maybe this is where, otherwise unproductive, EU mandarins could come onboard with a modified
Cyprus model – despite joining the EU as a de facto divided island, the whole of Cyprus is EU territory. Turkish Cypriots who have, or are eligible for, EU travel documents are EU citizens. EU law is suspended in areas where the Cypriot government (Government of the Republic) does not exercise effective control. Cyprus has two official languages: Greek and Turkish; only Greek is an official EU language. [15]
That offer on the table, as one of the (best) possible scenarios is an offer to Serbia for quick accession to EU together with Kosovo. Kosovo will have own state that will through Serbia be part of EU and their citizens will enjoy all privileges of other EU citizens. From black hole it will be place for booming economic development. Albanian side in Pristina was reminded who rules in Kosovo when US/Turkish solders invited and patrolled together with Serbian gendarmerie. Despite their protests, KFOR (mostly NATO) announced that such event was in accordance with UN 1244 resolution (that affirms Serbian sovereignty over Kosovo) and Kumanovo agreement with Serbian government (that Serbia has right to send up to 1000 soldiers to Kosovo)!!!
Of course, all experiences so far tells us that it is rational to expect irrational outcome and that we might go back to partition table of Kosovo! Serbian negotiation party will have eyes wide open on outcome of election in Montenegro on 30th of August! That outcome will be closely related with territories that Belgrade will demand. Bear in mind that Vučić, so far, although mentioned border correction, never said that Serbia wants (only) Serbian enclave in the North of Kosovo. Other eye and hand will embrace Republika Srpska without any doubt. Serbian public is prepared for such outcome as well. White house meeting has all potentials for great resolve but then again seeing faces of Lavrov and Vučić in June…
Mavro Orbini
- https://europeanwesternbalkans.com/2020/08/14/grenell-announces-meeting-between-kosovo-and-serbia-leaders-on-2-september/ ↑
- http://10.16.86.131/israeli-uae-peace-deal-marks-tectonic-shift-in-middle-eastern-balance-of-power/ ↑
- https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/24/kosovo-serbia-summit-white-house-catastrophe-balkans-peace-process/ ↑
- https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-serbia-kosovo-lavrov-grenell/30679106.html ↑
- https://www.reuters.com/article/us-serbia-kosovo/kosovo-independence-declaration-deemed-legal-idUSTRE66L01720100722 ↑
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashim_Tha%C3%A7i ↑
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramush_Haradinaj ↑
- https://www.newsbreak.com/news/2040085412775/kosovo-mps-fail-to-pass-law-to-protect-klas-values ↑
- http://www.kosovo.net/sk/rastko-kosovo/istorija/sanu/map3.html ↑
- https://www.blic.rs/vesti/politika/moguca-podela-kim-u-dve-faze/fc68tv0 ↑
- https://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/24/world/europe/24iht-kosovo.4.11380269.html ↑
- https://web.archive.org/web/20110516154348/http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2011&mm=05&dd=15&nav_id=74342 ↑
- https://exit.al/en/2020/06/09/kosovos-president-and-ambassador-lobbied-for-land-swap-deal-with-serbia-birn-reports/ ↑
- https://exit.al/en/2020/06/23/us-envoy-grenell-wants-special-economic-zone-between-kosovo-and-serbia/ ↑
- https://ec.europa.eu/cyprus/about-us/turkish-cypriots_en ↑
“little mini-Shenzhen zone” between Kosovo-Serbia”![14] It was immediately dismissed by experts and international community, making laughing stock of illiterate Americano who actually meant mini Schengen!?” – Wonder who’s illiterate here? Shenzhen was, in 1980, established as China’s first special economic zone. This is what Grenell was talking about. He had no mistaken it for Schengen, cancelled talks were planned only from economic side of the problem. And to make it clear, Schengen was first economic zone, but I China, not as a separate country.
As for “In the last 20 years there were several suggested models for resolution of this conflict:”, have you ever heard Great Britain’s ministers saying a word about solution for Falkland island that does not include Great Britain sovereignty over islands?
Mavri,
The reason the recent talks with Grenell were cancelled had nothing to do with Vucic conplaining about economic normalisation. It was the Kosovo Albanians who cancelled their participation in this meeting as Hashim Thaci had just been indicted for war crimes.
The landswap idea was scuttled back in 2018.
As for Shenzen / Schengen…seriously..? I could use what Grenell is smoking.
Referring to Cyprus model: the Turkish Cypriots are granted visa-free to EU but EU law is suspended on the Turkish side of the island. Cyprus is basically a frozen conflict. There is currently no acceptable deal on the table for Serbia.
As for purging the KLA from Kosovo, I personally don’t believe this possible as this organisation has infiltrated all aspects of Albanian society. The fate of the narcostate is intertwined with that of the narco-organisation itself.
Here is what Douglas MacGregor (most likely to relieve Grenell in Germany) had to say on Kosovo:
“So we intervened against the Orthodox Serbs, Orthodox Christian Serbs in Kosovo and put essentially a Muslim drug mafia in charge of that country and called it a great success story for democracy”.
“Period from 2013 to present day marked stalemate that did not work well for Pristina.” – Stalemate? Or should we called it undercover crawling recognition of Kosovo’s independence. Since 2013, Brusels agreement was signed by traitors. Hard border was set between Kosovo and the rest of Serbia. Just like the border with Hungary, for example. Serbian judges were forced to pledge allegiance to Kosovo and to rule under Kosovo laws. Serbian population was forced to get out and vote on Kosovo “parliamentary” elections (does anyone remembers traitor’s words “KFOR should give me 45 minutes and all of them will go out and vote – after majority of Serbs declined to vote). Hand over of Gazivode hydro-power plant to Kosovo and allowing Kosovo electric system to merge in Albania’s system. Also, signed agreement that Serbia will restrain of campaigning against Kosovo recognition and to not have objection when Kosovo is applying for membership in any international institution. Anyone knows what happened to Trepča corp, maybe? For those who wants to believe in lies (B.F. for example) it was a stalemate indeed, but it worked very well for Priština …
I agree 100% Stekicar as no matter how many times you show the detractors the evidence that Kosovo is defacto an independent state thanks in large part to Dacic and Vucic, the detractors push back with “Serbia will NEVER recognise Kosovo!”… Too bad its already done as what was surrender from 19.4.2013 till now is defacto independence, with pressure building from the EU & US to allow Kosovo to apply to the UN where it will later gain entry into UNESCO & Interpol…
The recent anti-Russian hysteria in the Serbian press is testing the public opinion of the masses as Vucic’s next task will be to sign the final agreement with NATO seeking membership as every possible agreement has previously been signed (SOFA, IPAP, Partnership for Peace and NATO members integrated into the Serbian Ministry of Defence, crippling reforms under NATO supervision) but this would be suicidal as the vast majority of Serbs at home and in the diaspora will never except this but its been on the cards for a very long time. Vucic is aware that his time is nearing an end so he’s trying his best to play each side off like his business partner in Montenegro Djukanovic did but it will be easier said then done!
”Vucic is aware that his time is nearing an end so he’s trying his best to play each side off like his business partner in Montenegro Djukanovic did…”
I do agree.
That imitation and following are visible for years. Accordingly, it gives much more of importance for us, that Montenegrin sibling of our tyrant ”kisses the floor” on approaching elections.
Besides, cutting the ties that his masters use to rule ich and every move of our ”lord”, or even eliminating him from the political scene, would be move in the right direction.
Any ”final solution” connected to him would be disastrous for us.
Even the one which assumes they will throw to him ”The Nobel Prize” at the end of the saga.
Especially such a one.
If, as the other, pseudonymous, person has repeatedly prophesied, Vucic (alias the psychopath Serbian tyrant, blah blah) is insistent on handing over Kosovo, it passes understanding why his (illegal, protested against, blah blah) regime would harp on the 18 or 20 countries that have withdrawn recognition from Kosovo. I’m saying 18 or 20 because apparently one of those didn’t actually withdraw and the other had never recognised Kosovo in the first place, but 18 countries have certainly withdrawn. They are all small and geopolitically insignificant countries, so the (psychopathic, tyrant, blah blah) Vucic regime would have been more than justified in totally ignoring them and even hiding news of their withdrawal of recognition. Instead it even increased the numbers from 18 to 20! Now how does that measure up to the incessantly repeated claim that the (illegal, protested against, blah blah) Vucic regime is just about, any minute now, to change the Serbian constitution to recognise and surrender Kosovo? It doesn’t.
Biswapriya Purkayastha,
I think you will find that Serbia has very little to do with those countries withdrawing recognition as most haven’t had an real dealings with Serbia since Tito’s days and it has a lot to do with Russian influence. No disrespect to the diplomatic corps but when your Foreign Minister is known more over his singing skills then diplomacy, I have strong doubts in the abilities and don’t forget that the Russians played a valuable part in lobbying during the UNESCO vote and vetoing the UK’s Resolution labeling Serbs as Genocidal over Srebrenica…
That doesn’t defend the diabolical efforts of the Russian Federation during Yelstin’s time who oddly enough had ties with the Kosovo tycoon and Foreign Minister Behgjet Isa Pacolli who hasn’t hid the fact that he offered Milosevic $2 Billion for Serbia to hand over Kosovo (denied by Milosevic’s Security team), so when that failed he boasted he’d used millions of his own funds to lobby at least 43 foreign governments to recognise Kosovo:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/deadlocked-serbia-and-kosovo-rebuff-western-call-for-compromise-1.3986380
http://rs.n1info.com/Vesti/a531244/Pacoli-Iz-licnih-fondova-lobirao-sam-za-priznanje-nezavisnosti-od-43-drzave.html
https://balkaninsight.com/2009/05/13/pacolli-lobbies-for-kosovo-in-africa/
I would say it has a lot more to do with Chinese diplomacy, the countries that have withdrawn recognition of “Kosova” are often as not, countries that have special arrangements with China, regarding infrastructure investment, debt restructuring or special loans etc. China, as ever, does its damage silently, but I think you can be sure that ever since the NATO bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade in 1999, China’s policy has been to ensure the US does not succeed in what it is trying to do, in the Balkans, or anywhere else for that matter. As for Serbia’s diplomacy, it doesn’t exist, Serbia is ruled by the most disgusting of 5th columns, a total quisling non-entity.
It was Russias diplomacy, which we can thank for those 18 to 20 withdrawals, my dear Hindu (I guess) friend!
Biswapriya Purkayastha is not Your pseudonym, right?!
Psychopath Serbian tyrant, Vucic, is insistent on handing over KosMet, just because his puppetmasters are ”on the edge of the nerve”, as we Serbs use to say, You know that phrase.
Why?! Because, on the ”The Grand Chessboard”, ”The Grand game” heads in the disastrous wrong direction relating them, and one miserable, abject ”pawn” sacrifice would be expected, logical move. And yes, what is our local tyrant more than ordinary ”pawn” for them?! Replaceable, expendable criminogenic psycho; hands or feet kissing creature, equally ready to ready to stub knife in your back, as is ready to submissively bow and craw and ”to sell his own mother” – as we Serbs use to say, and as You (must be) know, if necessary. All of that, just to prolong his own execution for a couple more days.
No viable option for him, for now. ”Death end” approaches to him, no matter if he signed or not; it comes down to the same thing for him.
But not to us, my Hindu friend. Not at all.
Biswapriya is a very rare first name, Purkayastha is a not particularly common family name, the only Biswapriya Purkayastha I have ever heard of is myself, and anyone who googles my name will find me. That said, I am still waiting for Vucic to make any actual move to hand over Kosovo. With the EU, post Brexit and with the increasing economic crisis, being weakened, if Vucic is going to hand over Kosovo at this point, even if he wants to, he is an idiot.
O.K.
I have no reason not to trust it is Your identity, Mr. ”Bill the Butcher” (if I googled correctly).
Still, it is amazing how deeply You are interested in our local quagmire, Kosovo and Metohija.
If I may ask, is that Your only connection with this locale?!
Sincerely, I cross-examined all of Your three blogs, and except one follower (Radmila Nastić) and word Khokkosh in the title of one of Your books that sounds like ”kokoš” (a hen) in my language, I found no other links.
On the other hand, the fact You appointed: that You are ”…still waiting for Vucic to make any actual move to hand over Kosovo” is a nightmare to us.
You can, of course, calmly watch our drama from thousands of kilometers of distance and ”bet on one horse or another”, or rather ”signed or not signed”; scratching Your head aftermath, and calmly just mutter for Yourself: ”Unbelievable, how come, who would predict, etc…” if he would have disappointed You.
Well, our position is quite different.
Further, You say: ”…if Vucic is going to hand over Kosovo at this point, even if he wants to, he is an idiot.”
Unfortunately, he is not. Because if he was, he would never be got on that position.
His own problem (alas ours too) is: he is totally dependant on his puppetmasters, he is ”in their hands” like a drug addict – junkie in hands of narco bosses. And, does not matter what he thinks or feels for them, being an addict he acts and moves as he never assumes he would.
P.S.
In my town, a couple of years ago a father cold blood killed his own junkie son; just to save the rest of family from his unbearable harassment, robbery, seizure of property for sale… and believe me or not, he did not encounter severe condemnation of the others.
Kosovo problem will be solved by war … one day, because it is not possible to solve it any different way.
You’re absolutely right! There is unfortunately not any other way to resolve this problem. When something is taken from you by force the only way to regain it will be by force, Serbia just have to wait and maintain the status quo, and not do anything stupid, time is on their side since the geopolitical climate is changing very rapidly, that’s why the west is eager to get this rap’d up as soon as possible. They are very well aware of the fact that without Serbias recognition, the entire Nato-Kosovo criminal enterprise collapses like house of cards, and that one day there may be a hefty bill to pay for the crimes committed, and they are absolutely terrified of such a possibility.
That is ultimate solution – then any other problem should be dealt in such way?
” then any other problem should be dealt in such way? ”
Israhell.
The Albanians are non agreement capable, history is the witness to that fact, they will except nothing short of a full recognition from Serbia, even if they hypothetically would want some other arrangement like say autonomy within Serbia , their masters would never accept such a deal. So what other viable solution in your opinion could be implemented that would be acceptable for both sides? Where there are conditions and the will for a political solution is always a better alternative then force. Unfortunately I can’t see in the case of Kosovo that any such conditions or will for that matter from the Albanian side exists.
Hm, Mavro Orbini…
The above text is all over the place. There is no “final” solution for Kosovo and Metohija. History did not stop in 1999 or 2008 or 2012 or 2016 or 2020… History never stops. Even Fukuyama refuted his own findings bungled up in that book of his. Who is Tramp or Clinton or Obama or Vucic to seek final solutions anywhere. Let them solve the Kosovo* issue immediately after the solve the Jerusalem, Tibet, Kashmir or Palestinian issues.
To recognise NATO Kosovo* is to legitimise centuries of oppression, ethnic cleansing, pillage and rape committed by what is now the Albanian people settled in the area by the Ottomans. The fact they were abetted by the Ottomans, Nazis/Italian fascists, Yugoslav communists or NATO does not make their crimes any more legal.
There is only one outcome and solution: Kosovo and Metohija as an integral part of Serbia with a wide autonomy for those Albanians who did not take part in the ethnic cleansing, rape, murder and theft. Full stop.
They can keep it occupied for centuries which won’t be the first time a Serb territory is occupied but to force the Serbs to recognise and legitimise the crimes committed by great powers and their proxies is crazy. By the way, the Kosovo Albanians are fleeing such NATO Kosovo ruled by criminals and drug lords. Those that stayed and their children unfortunately are dying on mass from radioactivity caused by NATO/US depleted Uranium bombardments. Thousands of them seek treatment in Serbia proper as they should as Serbia is their homeland too. The time will come when they realise that to live as free citizens with Serbs in a free and prosperous Serbia that may become so one day is better than living under NATO occupation.
”The time will come when they realise that to live as free citizens with Serbs in a free and prosperous Serbia that may become so one day is better than living under NATO occupation.”
Right absolutely!
It just takes to wait for some Kosovar ”Kadirov” to be born. Or, even better, ”to grow” such a one.
Of course, it takes to get some kind of Serbian Putin on our side too, which we should start to seek as soon as possible.
The rightful one; patriotic, straightforward, genuine, honest one, who could be trusted not only by suffering Serbian people but by a ”reasonable”, right-minded, sane part of the KosMet Albanian people too. People who had enough time to perceive what perspective and prosperity brings to them criminal narco cartel, as well as western political masters sitting above them.
As a Muslim. I humbly applaud your post. Quite spot on.
I have lost the track on which of Serbian Sitreps my comments went on any given day. Since this one is about Kosovo, here is my two cents. Not offending anybody, just an attempt to add evidence to futile efforts to blame Vuchich for everything, especially Kosovo.
To rule any territory, one needs 1) people to populate it 2) power and forces to protect it. It should be obvious that present Serbia has none of the two. I have a feeling that 2) may become reality even before 1), but then, what is the point of war about territory without people….
I have no statistical data, but know many Kosovo Serbs who moved to Serbia. Most of them have no intention to go back, regardless what happen with negotiations and agreements etc. Why is this? Sadly, most of them have nowhere to return. They have sold their land to Albanians. Once you sell the land, it is not yours anymore and you cannot return to it. Kosovo is and always was in such economical and social state that nobody wanted to live there. How many Serbs from other parts of Yugoslavia ever went to live and work on Kosovo? Few university professors, commuted to Pristine once or twice a week.
In 1960, Bosnia was economically weak and underdeveloped. There were on engineers, teachers, doctors to make its economy working. And what happened – many graduates from University of Belgrade went to live and work there. Most of them Serbs, some Croats, even Slovenians, and few Jewish families. Engineers, doctors , teachers. After only 10 years, by 1970 Bosnia was not recognizable. Today, they have their own experts, much less Serbs there, due to conflicts at the end of xx century. The point is – one needs people to built and develop the land.
I suggest that Johnny and followers do something useful – organize a kind of census, unofficial. Count people in Belgrade and Serbia who came form Kosovo since 1980. Ask them if they have any land left. Ask those born after 1980 if they would go back to Kosovo. Then ask who would go to war to liberate it, under hypothesis that NATO will not get involved, just Serbs against Albanians.
Until we know answers to those questions, all talk and emotions about status of Kosovo are useless noise. Some people may believe they know the answers, and based on that knowledge= gut feeling propose this or that solution, then blame this or that politician for having or not having done this or that.
There is no comparison between Crimea and Kosovo, except that their historical status had changed after communists took over. In Crimea, we know based on referendum that 90+ % of the population are either Russian or want to stay in Russia. That itself would not count much, if Russia did not have military and economic power to support the claim.
Therefore, only war can bring Kosovo back. When you win a territory in war, or win it back, it is the same – you can do with it whatever you want – expel local population, colonize it with your people. That is what Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians under king Alexander Karadjordjevich tried to do. He had military power, great powers that won WW1 were eager to let him do that, and more – Serbia was on the winning side. Today, the situation is different. Serbia has no military power string enough to take Kosovo back. Most of Great Powers are against her. And people to populate the land are missing. No politician in this situation could not do anything on his own. Milosevic, Djindjic, Tadic, Nikolic, Vucic – powerless. So it seems utterly unfair to blame this or that one for the mess we are in.
The key for most of the troubles could be the infrastructure being built by China and Russia. China wants markets. Russia wants warm deep seawater ports in Mediterranean Sea. Montenegro ports look promising. once the highways through Serbia and Montenegro are built, with or without Serbian/Montenegrine consent, does anybody believe the border between Serbia and Montenegro will be very tight? Yes, we may feel under foreign control, not fully independent. So what? Ottoman Turks ruled 500 years then left. Whatever they built, we inherited. Same will be this time.I know, to wait 500 years for freedom is a bit much.We did it once, we can do it again.
Removing this or that president will not do any good at the moment.
Zidar says: “Ottoman Turks ruled 500 years then left. Whatever they built, we inherited.”
To my knowledge if we exclude forts the Ottomans built nothing. They built mosques on top of burnt down Orthodox churches and towers the material for which were the severed heads of fallen Serb freedom fighters. For those interested search “cele kula nis” or see here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_Tower. A few bridges were commissioned by janissary of Serb origin such as the bridge over the Drina river in Visegrad now Bosnia and Herzegovina commissioned by Mehmed Paša Sokolovic, a Serb child abducted, converted to Islam who became a famous Ottoman vizier. But even projects like this were built by local Orthodox Christian serfs whom the Turks called “raya”.
Members of the raya “enjoyed” three rights: the right to keep their mouth shut, the right to have their wives raped on the night of their wedding (primae noctis) or the right to be impaled with their vital organs spared so they die a long and painful death.
One of the last impalements in Serb lands was performed in occupied Belgrade over Venerable Avakum, a deacon who was 20 years old originally from now Bosnia and Herzegovina, in 1814 after he had refused to convert to Islam.
It does not help to keep Serbs in Kosmet If the leader (Vucic) surrenders Serb institutions and locals over to Pristina. The locals of Northern Kosovo had success fighting off the invaders but Vucic betrayed them because you know he is desperately trying for Serbia to join the EU and that will come at a cost; surrender of Serb institutions to Pristina, stop blocking UN membership.
Ottoman construction work and architecture has it’s roots in the Roman Empire, when the Ottomans conquered the eastern Roman Empire, they had no clue how to fix Roman construction work, so they had to “invite” Serbian workers from Belgrade to Istanbul to fix and upgrade Roman construction work, hence the name “Belgrade forest” in Istanbul.
The problem with Your view on whole this thing (IMHO) is that You have the one cemented, completed, and frozen in time; based on ”state of affairs”, conjuncture ”as is” at this very moment.
No other options, no other possibilities. No algorithm with many ”if”-s, and ”then”-s.
But, in real life, things use to function quite unpredictably, many (if not most) of the time.
How many clairvoyants could be mentioned today that succeded 20, 30, or even more years ago to foresee whatever happened in the last couple of decades?! Even most appreciated (and overprized) Fukuyama revised his celebrated ”„The End of History…”, admitting he was (partly) wrong.
What I want to point out is that we are just players in the most complicated and unpredictable game. Luckily, it is equally unpredictable to the others too. When talking about things that go no well for us, as it is displaced population from KosMet, the economy in chaos, corruption, bureaucracy, a criminal gang of authorities, foreign occupation… etc, tell me please, what of that all counted another side has not. Even more, even worse.
It is not true that every Serb escaped from KosMet in decades after WWII sold the property of his ancestors for good money. It would be fair to say that in most cases it was under unbearable pressure, that was supported by ”blind-eyed” of Tito’s regime and, on the end, after all their desperate cries ”fell on deaf ears” of denationalized representatives of the Serbian nation in Belgrade. Of course, there was displacement because of economical reasons too, as everywhere on the planet.
Furthermore, while the actual number of Kosovo Albanians is tendentially exaggerated, on the other hand, the birthrate of the Serbian population is highest just there, lately.
”Therefore, only war can bring Kosovo back…”
Well, if our ancestors have used to think that way, it would never be liberated!
Why do not we leave it to future generations, in case we do not succeed in our lives to fulfill it?! There is nothing wrong with it, they will not reproach us, I am convinced. But, if we voluntarily take part in the dissolution of our own fatherland… well, it would be not just an act of ultimate stupidity, but the unforgivable sin. Plus, it would turn the collective sacrifice of previous generations in plain Sisyphus’ work. With what right?!
And, do not forget: they, KosMet Albanians are made from flesh and blood too!
I do live and cooperate with Šiptars, and believe me: They are eager to have normal healthy lives too. Eager to live a normal, prosperous society with prosperous living conditions for them and their children too.
Hey, now you are talking. Out of all posts so far this one seems the most honest, and I have nothing to say against it. The problem is this whole thing did not start with Kosovo, it started about tyrant/thief/mental case Vuchich. People reacted to that part. Then the focus moved to Kosovo. But OK, maybe Vuchich thing was a ruse to eventually start the conversation about Kosovo.
You say “…. the economy in chaos, corruption, bureaucracy, a criminal gang of authorities, foreign occupation… etc, tell me please, what of that all counted another side has not. Even more, even worse.” Funny, those are almost exact words I said to my father when i was about 17 year old. I was rather loud and vocal about that. Only my fathers influence (he was not a politician nor a man in any function) saved me from going to jail due to being “enemy of the people and of socialism”. See, I was just as you, or most of you around Johnny – at least one of us seems to be my generation.
This is also very true “The problem with Your view on whole this thing (IMHO) is that You have the one cemented, completed, and frozen in time; based on ”state of affairs”, conjuncture ”as is” at this very moment.
No other options, no other possibilities” Again, similar words my generation was speaking to our parents and grandparents. We believed in “people’s power, people’s, patriotism, Tito, ready to grab arms and go fight”. My grandmother would listen and say “Kids, don’t fool yourselves. People is a whore (Narod je kurva). I lived in 4 states, under two kings and one kaiser (Wilhelm), then under Tito and communists” We would dismiss her as old and lightly demented, what the hell she knows about modern times… She would explain:”I have seen people cheering for one king, then another. Then after WWII same people were cheering for Tito, requesting that young king is hanged on the lamppost (Kralja Peru na Banderu). Same people cheering Tito today will be spiting at him when the time comes”. And she was right, that is exactly how it happened. When Tito’s death was announced, there was a soccer game in progress, in Split, local Hajduk vs. Crvena Zvezda. The moment it was announced, the crowd went quiet. The players lined up on the center line, as for minute of silence. and then, everybody was weeping, players, crowd, referees. I am not making this up, you can find some clip on you tube. I am not saying Tito was good or bad, I am telling the facts I saw. New week, the whole country stopped. He died in Slovenia, then the body was transported to Belgrade for the funeral. The rail tracks were lined by people, in tears, in Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia. It took less than a decade for everybody to forget the grief and sorrow. We were all in each other’s throats, hating each other, and somehow blaming Tito for all of that. Croats hated him for being anti fetishist, Serbs hated him for, well, you know all about that. the rest were quiet, but silently preparing for secession.
We had 8 elites, no one powerful enough to run the country, to energize people. It is not true that there was complete treason in military forces. it was not certain what would happen. Slovenians tested the water, Whole world was expecting Yugoslavian Federal Government’s reaction. Should rebellion in Slovenia be crashed or we would let them down. If you think it was Serbian generals leading the current for keeping country together, you may think again. The first one, and only one , to propose practical way of keeping the country together was – Commander of Ait Forces, Zvonko Jurjevic, a Croat. He proposed to send a few squadrons to Slovenia, to the Austrian border, burn (literally burn as put on fire) a corridor 400 meter wide, from Austrian to Croatian border and evacuate army units, people with light and heavy arms through it. IMHO, had that been done at then and there, perhaps none of the sheet would have happened. Country might still come apart, but with much less blood. The first to oppose was a Serbian, Blagoje Adzich, commander in chief of entire YU military forces. Everybody else fell silent, who would argue with the commander in chief….. When the vultures circling around – usual suspects – UK, Germany, France (please note the absence of USA) saw that Yugoslav army would do nothing, Germany quickly recognized both Slovenia and Croatia as independent countries in current borders… Well, I ma sure you all know the rest.Later Serbian war heroes, Mladic, Lisica, Talic, Perisic, were of lesser rank – colonels and lieutenant colonels, no generals. The practically won the war, and then US entered the scene on ant-Serbian side. The rest we all know. The most brilliant of them all were perhaps Momchilo Perishich and Slavko Lisica. They took Hrzegovina and Dalmatia, with little blood spilled. They basically set foundation for Mladic. However, General Perishich entered politics after the wars of nineties were over, after Serbian color revolution. Ironically, he was soon caught in the act of handing some documentation to CIA. i don’t know what happened to him after. This long story is to show how things happen and change in chaotic situation.people’s feelings, affiliations and thinking change in unpredictable way.
I am not proposing war to liberate Kosovo.I am just emphasizing historical facts. We lost it in a war, we brought it back in a war, then we lost it again in a war.
You say another right and honest thing “Well, if our ancestors have used to think that way, it would never be liberated! Why do not we leave it to future generations, in case we do not succeed in our lives to fulfill it?! There is nothing wrong with it, they will not reproach us, I am convinced. But, if we voluntarily take part in the dissolution of our own fatherland… well, it would be not just an act of ultimate stupidity, but the unforgivable sin.”. Very true, youthfully honest and romantic. My full respect for that.No need to remind you of my grandmothers words regarding people.We tell you here on the forum “You have no followers, the fight is in wain”. You perhaps do have followers, but they are afraid to stand for it openly. If they do, they get bitten by police, not for fight for Kosovo, but for attempt to bring the regime down and occupy the legislature.
You are in situation like Mlada Bosna – Serbian Youth before WWI. In their harts people were for your ideas, liberation of Serbs, but not too many were showing open support. Serbs in Bosnia were seething and angry with Austrians. Some youngsters, with a little help of some secret services (not just Serbian) decided to make a statement. So Gavrilo Princip managed to shoot the Austrian Heir Duke Franz Ferdinand. Then the WWI started. The war would have start anyways, this was convenient trigger.
The irony is that Gavrilo killed the wrong Austrian. It was not unknown even then that Ferdinand was pro-Slavic. His wife was of Czech nationality. Ferdinand was working on splitting Austria-Hungary in three independent entities, in place of current of two. The third one was supposed to be Slavic. Some kind of Austro-Hungarian-Slavia. The closest country to that idea was – Yugoslavia, created by Serbian King Alexander, enlarged an d restructured by Tito. So, Gavrilo Princip shot a wrong Habsburg, Chance of Slavics province within the monarchy was gone. As unintended consequence, Serbia lost 1/3 of its population in the WWI. True, at the end we won over Kosovo, among other territories, most of Serbs did live in the same country. But at what price? Serbia never recovered from that.To few people to run such a country as Yugoslavia. Why would Alexandar accept, no, invite former AU officers into Yugoslavian Army? There were not enough Serbs to serve as officers in the army. He needed anybody and everybody who could speak Serbian. Noble idea, but good chunk of them used that as opportunity to sabotage orthodox barbarians, The result we have seen in WWII, which again reduced number of Serbs significantly.
Of course, after WWII we hailed Gavrilo as a hero. He was a symbol of centuries old desire of Serbs ti live in the same country. Very noble pronouncement. yet, there is no way to check the truth. If you asked people in seventies, in Yugoslavia, everybody would be proud that we belong to the same ‘stock’ as Gavrilo Princip. Same, even more, if you asked about Tito’s role in history. After all, under Tito, more Serbs than ever lived in the same country, and that life was rather good and peaceful for most of them. Ten to twenty years later, what would same people say about Tito? Even about Gavrilo Princip? As for Gavrilo it sound simply blasphemous, how can anybody question his role… I am not questioning his role, I am just saying we don’t know.
You must forgive me for voicing blasphemous questions. I am a technical person, old school engineer and we simply do not believe anything without proof. Especially if we are to plan or undertake an action that might have serious and unforeseen consequences. That is just part of our training, the way engineers think and behave, lawyers are able to discuss things and convince people, with or without proofs. And debates are heated. Which is all good.
Engineers never have heated discussions, OK, not never, let;s say much less than lawyers. If somebody has a claim or idea, that we do not like, all they have to do is to prove the idea and nobody will be against. You can’t be against trigonometry or Pythagoras’s theorem, there is nothing to discuss there. Whereas, it is always possible to discuss socialism vs. capitalism, conservative vs, liberal, authoritarian vs. democratic. That is good that way, there is no proof in discussions in socio-political domain. If you can convince or force your ideas and opinions, it may be possibly to prove, for a time being, that your idea are working. Russians lived better in time od Stalin than in time of Yeltsin. perhaps Russians live better under Putin than under Stalin.
Same for Serbs, who knows, there could be better life if Vuchich and Tadich and Milosevic are prevented from taking power. Life under Milosevic was bad in Serbia, AT the same time, life under Izetbegivic in Bosnia was way worse. It is all relative. or we may get into war and lose another 2-3 million Serbs, fighting for the ideals. You are from serbia, so name Bora Djordjevich is familiar, poet and rock and roll singer. He had a song about dying for ideals. I am sure you have heard it.
I did not believe to my grandmother, ‘people is whore’ and stuff. I was 17 back then. I am 50 years older now, and I can see some truth in what she was saying, My grandfather was more precise – “Politics is the greatest whore of them all”
Gavrilo Princip scarified his life for an idea – all Serbs in one country. And at the end, that Idea came true. But, war would have happened, Gavrilo or not Gavrilo, Ferdinand or not Ferdinand. What did his mother think about his sacrifice for great idea?
If you plan to fight for the idea of Kosovo being part of Serbia, it is a noble thing to do. Then why waste time on unworthy politician? It will happen the way great forces decide, like always. And I hate seeing people dying for “as always”. That is why there is so much opposition to Johnny;s ideas here.
Good luck, and all the best. we agree about the idea, just not about how to get there, which is a good start – we agree at least 50%.
Good luck and all the best from Uncle Zidar, alumni of Gavrilo Princip – same high school, 60 years apart :-)
:-)
@Zidar
1. “To rule any territory, one needs 1) people to populate it 2) power and forces to protect it. It should be obvious that present Serbia has none of the two. I have a feeling that 2) may become reality even before 1), but then, what is the point of war about territory without people….” – Tell this to Putin about Siberia. Let him hand over that un-populated territory to whomever wants, if any. Same goes for Alaska and Navajo reservation in US, or Canada’s northern territories …
2. “I have no statistical data, but know many Kosovo Serbs who moved to Serbia.” – How someone can move to Serbia when they are already in Serbia?!?
3. “Sadly, most of them have nowhere to return. They have sold their land to Albanians. Once you sell the land, it is not yours anymore and you cannot return to it.” – Should it be illegal to sell your property to whomever you want? Were they selling land in capacity of state selling land to another state or as Serbia’s citizens or another Serbia’s citizens? Have you ever asked yourself why they were selling their lands and houses in a first place? If I buy a land in, for example Russia, that does not mean that purchased land becomes Serbia’s land. It is still Russian land owned by Serbian. Do you see the difference?
4. “Kosovo is and always was in such economical and social state that nobody wanted to live there.” – Not true. Have you ever heard of Trepča? Do you know how many people from other part of then Yugoslavia worked there?
5. “I suggest that Johnny and followers do something useful – organize a kind of census, unofficial. Count people in Belgrade and Serbia who came form Kosovo since 1980. Ask them if they have any land left. Ask those born after 1980 if they would go back to Kosovo. Then ask who would go to war to liberate it, under hypothesis that NATO will not get involved, just Serbs against Albanians.” – Why only from 1980? Why not from 1683, when “Great Exoduses of the Serbs” happened during Habsburg-Ottoman War? Why did you choose 1980? History before 1980 does not exist or you are not aware of it? Why you did not ask yourself would you go to war to liberate Kosovo? Do you think that only those who lived on certain territory are in duty to liberate that territory? Or is it a state’s duty to liberate it’s territory?
6. “Not offending anybody, just an attempt to add evidence to futile efforts to blame Vuchich for everything, especially Kosovo.” – Traitor took every mean from Serbians on Kosovo to be able to survive, just like communists did in Yugoslavia, and then you ask yourself why people leave? Have you ever asked yourself why people leave Serbia? Especially, young people?
There are a lot of rumours circulating about an agreement between Serbia and Kosovo. Some write and say that Serbia should be given access to the Adriatic Sea as a reward for recognising Kosovo. Others write and say that Republika Srpska may unite with Serbia. Honestly, I do not believe any of this because I do not have the impression that there is an interest in the EU and especially Germany & France to solve the frozen conflict. The influential states in the EU do not want to make concessions to the Serbs anyway, that would be tantamount to a confession for their monstrous policy of the 1990s. The same applies to the USA. The latter, under Trump, would be more inclined to close the issue, Kosovo could unite with Albania, where the US & UK have the politicians firmly in hand. But neither Germany nor France want that, they would be catapulted out of the region.
I don´t see a satisfactory solution to this conflict. Another war, which many commentators are longing for, would be the worst. I would like to ask these commentators: Are you ready to fight & would you send your children to this war? What do you intend to do with the majority of Albanians who do not want to live with Serbs and certainly not among Serbs?
There can be only intermediate steps & tactics:
1. it would be important to draw the discontented Kosovo Albanians to the Serbian side, which is not easy as many of them have a psychopathic hatred of Serbs.
2. Serbia needs to be built as an alternative to the corrupt fail state, where mafia & criminals have enriched themselves unthinkable. The neoliberal austerity Agenda is not the right decision.
3. Orthodox monuments must be brought more to the fore, preferably through tours organized by Serbs. Most Serbs have never been to Kosovo, let alone to these monasteries & churches. Instead, Albanians organize these tours for tourists like employees of the occupying forces & tell them that the basically autochthonous Albanian culture is what they represent. Most fools still believe that too.
4. Serbia still needs to continue a policy between the chairs. At best also with the renouncement of the EU entry, which would not take place before 2030 anyway.
5. The Serbian government must push for the conflict to be taken out of the EU and returned to the UN, thus involving Russia and China.
6. A new question should be asked about the legality of the recognition of Kosovo’s declaration of independence. The one formulated by Jeremic|Tadic was obviously a farce.
@Lara
I do agree with most of Your comment, except this:
”… I would like to ask these commentators: Are you ready to fight & would you send your children to this war?”
The question that could be heard more and often lately. Ultimate stupidity!!!
Except for Isis and Alkaida, I du not know any other army, regular or not, that ”sends children to war”. Not at all. But, serious nations ready to survive (aka Russia, Israel…) sends young adult people in the army, to be trained and get ready as long as they live to stand for the fatherland, and yes, if necessary to fight, take part in war actions. Finally, to offer their lives ”on the altar of freedom”. To protect each and every square centimeter of the homeland. That is how it was with this nation for many centuries too, that is how it works today and, unfortunately, how it will only work in the future. And no mother used to dare to even question such decisions so, neither You, please.
And, yes; I was, I would, and I will (if necessary) take part, again. As much, as I can.
Furthermore, You say:
”I don´t see a satisfactory solution to this conflict. Another war, which many commentators are longing for, would be the worst.”
Well, if You do not see it, leave it to the others who eventually can, please. Or, who will see, somewhere ”in the future”.
And it is not true also, nobody normal is longing for war. Not on our, nor on their side. Remember that: ”On the other side too”.
Миадо Мир,
No underage children were meant. I have no problem with anyone seeing a solution for Kosovo. But I do have a problem if the solution is presented in a simplified way. War is not an easy thing and should always be considered as a last option, even in the discussion. I didn´t get that impression from some commentators.
Lara,
Are you seriously suggesting that we go back to the kangaroo court in the Hague with a reformulated question?
As for “organising tours of Serbian monuments” how on earth are we supposed to do that when the Orthodox monasteries require KFOR police protection to protect them from Albanian attack??
Let me be clear: Kosovo is a zero sum game I.e. there is no win-win. NATO/ EU expects us to give them recognition and get nothing in return (so you can forget about a revised Hague tribunal verdict, access to sea, Republika Srpska etc).
Therefore: the first thing that our President needs to do is to stop cooperating with them!
We are in no hurry. Right now the best strategy for the Serbian state is to wait and do nothing We wait. Geopolitical events are unfolding…
@Serbian Girl
To wait? Oh no! For how much longer? I do not have too much time left, I have to go shopping in EU. Their stuff (built in China) are so nice and beautiful … What if EU puts visas for us, serbian fancy shoppers, again? Did you think about that, ah? Do you really think I will accept Kosovo in Serbia and not to be able to shop in EU?
Sarcasm aside, we wait. History did not end. As for dying for my country, I have no doubt about it. I would not like my kids to die, who would, but if we have to defend our family, relatives and our country no options there. Should I die in bed at 80 or in some battle, I choose latter. At least I will be remembered.
Courageous of you Stekicar but I don’t think there will be war for our country.
As for the Albanians…by housing Camp Bondsteel, they agree to become collateral damage in any major power conflict. They send thousands of their young to fight alongside NATO in Afghanistan, and join ISIS in Syria…their fate is now linked to that of their sponsor.
Serbian girl,
We are all aware of the mission of the Hague judges. I do think, however, that they shouldn’t be made to feel easy. The recognition of Kosovo is not in accordance with the UN statutes, that is a fact. Not only was the war against Yugoslavia contrary to international law, but also the recognition of Kosovo by various states. The court in The Hague is formally an institution of the UN, so they would be in trouble if the question were asked correctly. Do you now understand what I am getting at?
You are right that there can be no win-win solution, at least that is how it looks today. This is often the case, also in other conflicts. I would emotionally agree with you immediately with the termination of the negotiations, but that’s not how politics works, especially if you want to achieve a goal. A wise politician once said: Mind without feeling|emotion is inhuman. Feeling without mind is foolish.
You are not in a hurry, do you live in Kosovo? I don’t live in Kosovo and I’m also not in a hurry. But how are the Serbs there? Does anyone ask about their hurry? We don’t hear much about the Serbs in Kosovo in this discusion, but they should play a leading role.
There is no chance you can bring Albanians to the Serbian side. I do not like those people either as a proud Swiss, but Albanians aren‘t willing for anything else then recognize their fake independence in this dip of shit that Kosovo now is thanks to ethnic Albanians, also do you realistically want Millions of non integrationable and crime as well as terror prone people? I mean even Switzerland couldn‘t integrate Albanians to an acceptable degree. Why would you manage that? Those people are poisonous for every country and do not add anything positive. Why do you think Kosovo ‘citizens’ don‘t get any visa liberalization? Why do you think Western countries absolutely dislike large migration waves from Albanians? Serbia can‘t handle that. I agree though with the most things you wrote. Also something against falsifying of history needs to be done, even the EU regards Albanian historical narratives about Kosovo as mostly fake, they don‘t recognize their history books. So here you have hope.
well, you are missing something. If Serbia wants Kosovo liberated, it has to do it with force, meaning war. Albanians will flee to Albania (and EU, Switzerland) as they did in ’99., because they are cowards, if they are not stronger in numbers (you will never see one Albanian making trouble, they operate in packs, horde). They will never return. Problem solved, case closed, forever.