Short non-Ukrainian sidebar: nukes on 911?

One thing I think is worth keeping in mind about the apparent instability of some people in fringe areas of 9/11 truth:

(1) Not to romanticize insantiy or anything like that, but some truths will be more easily seen by outsiders (or simply weirdos) of various sorts. Even in myself I see that it’s been easier to accept 9/11 as an inside job because the social perks of cognitive conformity don’t mean as much to me as they do to others.

(2) It’s at least thinkable that if individuals get close to important truths, their sanity may be subverted by the PTB, which certainly has the means.

(3) It’s of course also thinkable that the PTB select disinfo agents from amongs the mentally disturbed to confuse things–or, for that matter, it’s conceivable that they put key truths in the mouths of people who are mentally disturbed, as a way to discredit those truths.

Sorry if this is all speculative but banal and obvious.

(Recently I saw the first footage I ever remember seeing of Gerard Holmgren speaking. Seemed remarkably sane.)

Rudy (and others), try a thought experiment.

Imagine a 3,000 ton object (say a building floor). Raise it (this is a thought experiment) by say anti-gravity to 470 meters high.

It is just floating there, then turn off the anti-gravity and it falls. It will hit the ground at about 90kmh (approx 50mph).

What will happen? Think of a car, without any crumple zones and made out of a lot of brittle stuff hitting a wall at 50mph…yes a right old mess.

This a KE of about 2 tons of TNT, it will be pulverised and bits will go all over the place.

The other ‘thought experiment’ is: take single floor of the WTC but build it on the ground. Place 2 tons of TNT evenly all round it on the bottom and detonate… Again it will be pulverised and bits will be thrown all over the place.

That’s the sort of forces you are dealing with. It is no wonder so much was pulverised, and so much metal twisted. Also a fair proportion of that KE ended up as heat stored in the metal and concrete at it was crushed, no wonder it was hot (plus all the parts that were heated by the fires too, at least to 800+C).

So you don’t need any extra explosives, the forces involved were ‘explosive’ enough.

Once you weaken the supports on one floor enough that the mass of ones above it then collapse it ….then it is all over.

Again I go back to the real conspiracy … and note someone else’s comment that the building codes haven’t been changed. There should have been detailed studies and reports and even commissions into the weaknesses of that type of design and changes forced to be made.

Sadly the ‘explosives’ theorists (and now the ‘nuke’ ones) let all those people off the hook.

The buildings should have stayed up, at least for far longer than they did (remember fire will bring down anything given enough time).

And most importantly of all …and this is nearly always forgotten….all the people above the impact floors should have been able to get out.
The core (with all the stairs) should have been strong enough to resist the impact and the subsequent fires for long enough for total evacuation.

This thread is really bringing the 9/11 trolls out from under their rocks (always happens whenever the official story is denied).

Those who wish to spend a year or so researching this topic could begin by following the links at these three pages:

The World Trade Center Demolition
and the So-Called War on Terrorism
Related Documents on this Website

The World Trade Center Demolition
and the So-Called War on Terrorism
Relevant Pages on Other Websites
Links added after 2005-04-01

The World Trade Center Demolition
and the So-Called War on Terrorism
Relevant Pages on Other Websites
Links added from 2001 to 2005-04-01

Most of the 9/11-related articles on that site were published during 2001-2007, and so now might be mainly of historical value, having to some extent been superseded by more ‘professional’-looking sites documenting in detail the impossibility of the official story.

But, as The Saker has pointed out, the problem is not showing that the official story is a blatant lie (believable only by those lacking any ability to think, or afraid to), but rather the problem is that to most Americans the treachery of their government (or rather the secret government within it) in killing nearly 3000 of their fellow citizens and concocting a tissue of lies to cover up this treachery and provide a pretext for wars abroad and tyranny at home, is unbelievable and unacceptable. This inability (or fear) to examine the evidence refuting the official story, and consequently allowing the US (as the main actor in the Anglo-Zionist Empire) to pursue its program for attaining full-spectrum global dominance, is what has brought us to this point, where there is now a 50/50 chance of a war (inevitably turning nuclear) between NATO and Russia, and the consequent deaths, quickly or slowly, of billions of people. The ‘March of Folly’ continues, and perhaps the human species will soon win the last and greatest Darwin Award, given to those whose stupidity results in their destruction.

Sykes said: “These planes were fully fueled for a cross country trip, and the jet fuel they carried started a huge fire. The resulting collapse is entirely expected because the structural steel has a much smaller strength when heated to hundreds or thousands of degrees.”

Unfortunately for this claim, experience shows that steel-structure buildings do not collapse because of fire. For seven cases of huge fires in steel-structure buildings which did NOT collapse see Other Fires in Steel-Structure Buildings.

Some objections being made by “debunkers” on this thread have already been thoroughly dealt with, as anyone who is relatively familiar with the subject will know.

I will reiterate the recommendation made by someone else of this relatively new 9/11 documentary, which pulls together some of the more crucial evidence to disprove the official theory (though I’m not sure why it wastes as much time as it does on the comparison to Pearl Harbor, especially since its clearly not pushing a LIHOP position):

September 11 – the New Pearl Harbor

Without the html, since I’m not sure if that tag works here: http://www.luogocomune.net/site/modules/sections/index.php?op=viewarticle&artid=167

Incidentally, while David Ray Griffin was an advisor for this video, it includes information not covered in his books New Pearl Harbor or New Pearl Harbor Revisited, particularly on the crucial issue of plane speeds.

I was waiting for Saker to define his response on what happened on 9/11. Because of his declaration, I am now going to delete this site from my favorites list.

Excerpt from Khalezov’s book (speaking about the conspiracy theory No.1 or “controlled demolition theory”):

[…]
First of all, let us calculate how many hollow-shaped charges we would need to implement such a demolition solution.
We have 59 perimeter columns on each of the 4 façades – altogether 236 perimeter square columns.
Plus, we have 47 core rectangular columns.
In total, we need to simultaneously break 283 steel tubes.
Do not forget also that each of the 283 tubes has its own perimeter consisting of actually four walls. […]
Note that each of such walls is thicker than the front-armor of a tank – do not forget this important detail.
We would need 4 hollow-shaped cutting charges in order to cut each of such steel tubes – each charge has to be attached to either side of every steel bar.

In order to cut all 283 columns, at one level only, we would need 283×4=1,132 charges.

In order to cut at least 350 meters of each Twin Tower (leaving their remaining upper parts intact – in order to imitate the actual 9/11 style of their collapse) into 5 meters long segments we would need to cut each steel bar at 350/5=70 spots by vertical measurement.
Now we multiply 1132×70=79,240.

We would need nothing less than 79,240 charges of conventional explosives per Twin Tower!

Do not forget that in addition, we would also need 79,240 detonators.

And, don’t forget, a corresponding wiring system to detonate all of our charges in a synchronized manner.

And a corresponding ability to secretly install such a demolition system that no tenant in the WTC Towers would notice.

Do you seriously believe it is feasible? Some conspiracy theorists seem to believe so…

What do you think about the weight of each of such hollow-shape cutting charges?
How many kilograms of TNT or other explosive materials should each charge contain in order to be able to cut the 2.5 inch steel wall considering such wall’s width?

Let us again imagine the unimaginable and presume that each of such charges would contain a mere two kilograms of TNT (in reality it should be more than that, I think; it is very unlikely that 2 kg would be sufficient, but for simplicity sake let us presume that only 2 kg per charge is needed). How many kg of TNT we would need to explode in total?
79.240×2=158.480 kg or almost 160 tons.

Now, at last, try to imagine what kind of deafening sound would be produced from a simultaneous explosion of nearly 160 (!!!) tons of TNT, dynamite, or C4.
Do you think that all those witnesses who “heard explosions” during the WTC collapse indeed heard explosions of 160 tons of TNT detonated simultaneously? Are you serious?
[…]

@david holden:ваш материал об Украине был очень полезной. почему сейчас эти слабые 911 мысли? это может повредить ваш авторитет в глазах серьезных студентов – просто посмотрите на большинство комментариев!

Дружище – дело в том, что этот блог не о популярности – а о правде, об истине. А мысли, кому “слабые”, а кому очень важные. Меня больше волнует вторая группа. Пусть те кто верит сказкам Дяди Сэма не читают, и все.

Балобан

One thing I have wondered at recently is how the entire “respectable” liberal intelligentsia is so committed to the “blowback” theory of 9/11, as well as the hyped “terrorist threat”.

But when you seriously think about this, it’s actually a wonder that anybody finds the “blowback” explanation convincing at all. Not to say that it is impossible, mind you, but let’s just consider certain key facts:

The British Empire (and French and Spanish and Portuguese) brutalized the populations of large swathes of the planet for centuries and I recall no issue with blowback terrorism. Maybe a bit from the Irish, but nothing from the entire Indian subcontinent, or Africa. Or the Middle East for that matter. In fact, throughout the entire period, English cops felt no need to even carry a firearm. If blowback terrorism is such a natural result of these kinds of policies, why was there no such problem?

The United States could carpet bomb villagers throughout Southeast Asia, killing millions of innocents, destroying entire villages, like in the My Lai incident, and I cannot recall a single “blowback” terrorism incident, where somebody who lost his entire family, entire village, decided to blow up some Americans in California, say, to get even. Never happened. I think not even once. There are large Vietnamese populations and all it would have taken was one embittered person, but no… nothing.

Similar comment can be made about Nicaragua contras and Salvadoran junta. Brutal stuff and no blowback terrorism on American soil despite a large population of refugees from those countries and, again, all it would take is one person with a grudge to do a suicide bombing.

So, if there is no history of this happening previously, why is the entire American “intelligentsia” so invested in this “blowback” terrorism explanation of 9/11? To me, frankly, “blowback” terrorism seems a lot like lone nuts showing up out of the blue and shooting people, a story line we should immediately be very suspicious of.

As far as I can see, the physical impossibility of the official explanation can be summarized by the following:

“Asymmetrical damage cannot cause a symmetrical collapse.”

Or, in other words, even if (for the sake of argument) the burning fires can cause the steel columns to weaken enough for a collapse, the steel columns are not going to all reach that collapse point at exactly the same moment, literally within the same 100 milliseconds or so! From randomly burning fires!!!???

But one aspect of all of this, aside from the physics, is human factors. We are told the story of these Arabs in the flight schools. Part of the story is that these Arabs at the flight schools were such terrible students. Why is this? I think, principally, because their English was very poor. At least a few of them were in the country over a year before the operation, initially attending English language classes.

Now, let’s think about this. Let’s suppose you wanted to fly a plane into a building in Russia. Would you go to Russia over a year before the operation, study Russian language, so that you can then attend a flight school in which the language of instruction is Russian, so that you can learn to fly the plane and then do the operation?

Would anybody ever do that? Why not study how to fly the plane in a country where you master the language and then go to the target country at the last possible moment to carry out the operation?

So, first, there is the evident absurdity of studying Russian language so that you can attend a flight school in Russian, rather than just learning to fly the plane in your own language. But then, there is the question that the longer you are in the target country prior to the operation, the greater the likelihood you will come to the attention of the relevant organs of the State, right? You would surely have a far greater chance of success if you entered the country at the last possible moment before undertaking the operation.

Also, entering the country for a year or more before the operation requires some sort of residence permit which is much harder to obtain than just a short-term tourist visa.

There is also a deeper human factors problem. If I had successfully convinced somebody to fly a plane into a building in Russia, the last thing I would ever do is send that person to Russia over a year before the operation. That would give the person over a year to figure out that Russian people are just people like anybody else! In that year, the person could meet a lovely Russian girl and not want to kill any Russian people (or himself for that matter.) Why take that risk?

Obviously, if you had somebody good and brainwashed, you would send them to the target country to carry out the operation at the last possible moment instead of risking all that lead time for your brainwashing to wear off.

So, I mean, aren’t there human factor aspects to the official story that would also allow you to realize that the whole thing is a bad piece of fiction?

@OldSkeptic wrote:

“(3) The NSA was totally useless. In fact some of the attackers stayed in a motel for a time not far from it’s HQ.”

Alleged attackers. You are committing the classic logical fallacy here of assuming the consequent.

With all due respect, your reasoning is going down rabbit holes. This is because LIHOP (Let it Happen on Purpose as opposed to MIHOP, making it happen on purpose) obviously cannot work for 9/11.

LIHOP is basically absurd — the whole idea that these people (I mean the ziocon neofascists) are planning all their wars and so on, but meanwhile, are sitting around waiting for a handful of mentally disturbed Arabs who don’t even know how to fly planes to somehow be able to hijack four airplanes in an hour and fly them into their targets, so that they can implement their plans.

No, clearly, where it’s at is MIHOP (MADE it happen on purpose). Independent researchers have largely worked out the details of what happened. The buildings were rigged for demolition under cover of elevator maintenance work in the weeks prior to the event.

Self-styled “debunkers” love to claim that there is no way that an operation like this could be kept secret. And actually, they have a point! It so happens that the secret was not very well kept, which is why just about no high level person was killed at the WTC. There is plenty of evidence of people having been forewarned. Also, there was financial market activity which shows foreknowledge, The fact that none of this extensive foreknowledge of the event was ever investigated already tells you much of what you need to know about the overall false flag psy-op.

Granted, the extensive foreknowledge of the event is equally consistent with both LIHOP and MIHOP.

Now, the LIHOP (Let it happen on purpose) theories of Pearl Harbor make perfect sense. Probably some form of LIHOP is correct in that case. (You know, the “conspiracy theory” that the U.S. had already broken the Japanese codes in 1941, and knew Pearl Harbor was coming and decided to let it happen. Probably correct IMO.) But there, you have the Japanese war machine, and you are counting on them to carry out the attack for you that will be your casus belli. It makes sense to rely on the Japanese to be able to execute a Pearl Harbor attack, because these are very disciplined competent people, right? They really CAN do that shit!

OTOH, LIHOP obviously makes no sense for 9/11 because, while you can rely on the Japanese to execute Pearl Harbor, you cannot rely on this collection of retards and misfits that have been named “Al Qaeda” to execute any damned thing. Certainly not of that scale. They lack the capability. If the they need something of that scale to happen, they OBVIOUSLY have to do it themselves. Of course, this serves to highlight a basic difference between something like WW II and the “War on Terror”. In the former, the enemy really did exist! LIHOP theories can only make sense when you actually have an enemy that exists, eh? When your enemy is a fictitious construct like “Islamic terrorism”, the events have to be made to happen, MIHOP, because, otherwise, they simply WILL NOT happen.

http://911u.org/

WTC 1 & 2 – huge percentage of the mass of the buildings were reduced to extremely fine-particulate dust as they came down in sequential top-down explosions.

My observations of the all the effects of the destruction, especially the massive rolling pyroclastic-like “dust” clouds and the fact that the GZ fires were not declared “out” for 99 days after the event indicate some type and quantity of designer-yield nuclear devices were utilized on 9/11, in addition to the energetic nanocomposites which were apparently found in dust samples.

Just my opinion.