Spain & the EU’s ‘Oriental despotism’ is legitimizing Catalonia as a leftist cause

by Ramin Mazaheri

The ultimate problem with Catalonia is that they aren’t trying to secede from the European Union.

Now that would be something which the non-Spanish left could really rally around, during this ongoing age of Brussels-imposed poverty.

For so long this seemed like a fake crisis – a distraction – but the new reality is: a huge crisis could explode now, due to a massively authoritarian/capitalist response from Madrid which was also just as massively stupid.

Catalonian separatists still do not have the democratic support of Brexit or even Scottish independence (30% in a new poll from El País), so it’s still a hard sell, but perhaps not much longer, as 52% want snap elections and parliament to be dissolved….

In many ways we can blame France: It guides the European project philosophically and sets the cultural tone for Western Europe – any organization is at least somewhat influenced by its leader, no?

And France massively overreacted to a terrorist attack (Bataclan Theater) to install a massively authoritarian/capitalist state of emergency, which is on the cusp of being permanently legal.

And a state of emergency is how Madrid is apparently planning to rule not just the restive region of Catalonia, but all of Spain. Like I said – there’s a lot of massive stupidity going on in this part of the world right now….

So leftists (and I mean this, as I always do, in the historic 1920-1970s sense and not the pale, capitalist, actually-centrist version called “leftist” in the mainstream media) should ask themselves: what should our position be, given Madrid’s response? And also, how can we take advantage of this to promote democratic/socialist policies?

This involvement would change a Catalonian narrative which many leftists, in Spain and beyond, have thus far found contrary to leftism.

True leftists have always supported the democratic aspects of Catalonian separatism because socialism must be anti-racist/multicultural: Catalonia’s voice must be able to be expressed in a vote, their culture must be preserved, their language must be used, their TV stations cannot be shut down, etc. However, the left has not supported their economic aspects, because the separatist movement is not openly promoting socialism and is indeed largely led by politicians who promote right-wing economics.

Waiting for a bloodbath to give support?

Ask yourself this: can any leftist, and even the centrists, tolerate an extended state of emergency for Spain?

Like I wrote – people follow the leader: when the US started to use “terrorism” to justify everything, other nations opposed it at first, but then soon followed; that’s the psychology of human hierarchy, which is a pattern that takes intelligence to break.

But does Spain think that because it worked in France it’s going to work there?

The difference between France and Spain is that – I am embarrassed to report – the French have massively supported the state emergency: popular support has been 85-70% over the past two years, and while that’s down the past few months it has never been below a majority (they assume the only Muslims are losing their rights – they are mistaken).

This is not at all the situation in Spain, and Madrid’s popular support will decrease with every drastic overreaction…right?

Madrid is “following the leader”, or at least the stupid precedent of France; but one size does not fit all, in a fitting epitaph for the gravestone of this current pan-European project.

So Madrid is stupidly planning to impose a state of emergency; increased militarism increases the chances for violence. Anyway, a bloodbath can never really be prevented if an authoritarian state wants it. That’s a sad reality of life.

Will Madrid’s next massively stupid order be to kill some protesters? I doubt it will get that far, but I keep being proven wrong by Madrid….

But protester deaths would get the left (not fake left) on board, and that is a game-changer. It would certainly galvanize the left into the action, as well as the silent majority and the undecideds.

I am not hoping for deaths to achieve political goals! What I am saying is: we cannot wait to extend our support – not due to our support of Catalonian independence, but due to our opposition to authoritarianism (in whose wake capitalism always follows).

Again, your possible shift in support for Catalonian separatism is caused by Madrid and the European Union’s failure to pursue both democracy and diplomacy, and not by the ideological correctness of Catalonian separatism.

Is ‘Turkish despotism’ actually European?

As it did for about 500 or so years, Spain is resembling Turkey far more than France: mass firings of government workers has already been approved by the Spanish Senate, arrests of leaders, etc.

LOL, I have always maintained that Turkey is part of Europe, so my answer is “yes”.

(Europe’s failure to acknowledge Turkey and those whom history used to call the “Turks” of Europe (but who are now solely referred to by their religion – “Muslims” – instead of their ethnicity), is evidence of the non-socialist/racist structure of the European Union. There is a fitting second epitaph here somewhere….)

But despotism is caused by capitalism – “socialist despot” is a capitalist fabrication because socialism’s governance is based on democracy, feedback, discussion, the will & needs of the 99%, etc. So despotism is not “Turkish” or “oriental” or “Asian” or “a conspiracy by Whitey”.

But the real question here for EU citizens (which will be ignored by the mainstream media) is: Will the pan-European project care that despotic, authoritarian domination is taking place within its own defined borders?

Well, the European Union undeniably has a horrible track record for respecting democracy. Their response to the Great Recession has virtually ended this discussion among intelligent people, and certainly among socialists/democrats. (May I refer you to a previous article of mine: “The horribly corrupt structure of the Eurozone & the Eurogroup”)

The European Commission’s chief already tweeted: “Spain remains our only interlocutor.” That means they won’t even talk, or won’t even try to intervene diplomatically on behalf of European citizens. This is an abnegation of their democratic responsibility. The EC is the only non-banker part of the “Troika” – it is the unelected, 28 member “cabinet” which is the bureaucratic arm of the EU (23,000 bureaucratic civil servants, assuming you think the EC contains enough democracy to grant them the honorable title of “civil servants”.)

We also see that Brussels unambiguously supported the “nuclear option” of article 155, which (allegedly) gives Madrid the power to cancel historic Catalonian autonomy (nearly 40 years post-Franco).

And why should we think that Brussels won’t also support the invocation of article 116, which would set up a state of emergency across all of Spain? They approved of the one in France, after all.

Brussels didn’t condemn that from a democratic standpoint. From an economic standpoint, the only time Brussels “allowed” France to breach the holy 3% fiscal deficit rule was to add military spending for the state of emergency.

It’s funny to hear EC president Jean-Claude Juncker speak, as he wants out of his job. He approves of zero-diplomacy/democracy in Spain, of course: “We already have enough fissures and fractures,” within the EU – a clear admission of a problem he perceives as possibly reaching a breaking point.

We have abundant proof of the already-militarist (capitalist) nature of Brussels which is totally at odds with the campaign promise of a” peace-inducing” pan-European project. Spain, like France, may be one step below martial law – not very peaceful.

So even if the Catalonian movement seemingly went into second gear thanks to middle- and upper-middle class interests (let’s not forget how quickly the leading, right-wing party of Puigdemont leadership backed away once it became clear that banks and corporations were going to leave an independent Catalonia)… that doesn’t mean the left can’t jump in and steal all their thunder.

The only question is: Should we?

Stop laughing at the West European Left’s “power” to steal anything

I get that – they have a bad reputation and they’ve earned it. There is a saying in France that “One does not earn their reputation” – I think that’s bull, mostly: If people say you are a no-good son of a gun, I’ll give you a chance, but you probably are.

Let’s keep in mind that in Spain there is no Iranian Basij or pro-Chavismo Socialism peoples’ militias – how can there be a group to defend the gains made by the government when we are talking about the EU?

There might be the emergence of something like the Collective of the 500 Brothers in French Guiana, which protects strikers and demonstrators from police brutality and thus encourages democratic expression the People.

(FYI – Macron is backtracking on the 2 billion euro promise to France’s South American colony (while maintaining the same racist discourse which Le Pen would have used). That promise ended the longest general strike in the European Union that I can recall, so keep your eye on that. Few people are in the Anglophone sphere, but I wrote this article on it, and leftists need to remember good things can come in small/ religious packages.)

But, beyond the “far-leftism, but with five beers first” of French-style Antifa , we all understand why it’s fair to doubt the West European left’s capability to “steal the thunder” of even a gassy baby. And to that I can say: You’re totally justified.”

But Catalonia is looking more and more as a place and point in time where history may say: “Things changed for the left in Europe”. Fidel Castro said: “Revolution is feeling historicity of the moment”. The moment in Spain, due to the drastic overreaction of Madrid, has changed most unexpectedly.

In a country where austerity-provoked deprivation has been far worse than in France, I doubt the Spanish are as politically apathetic.

I see why Catalonian separatists are in near-deliriums of happiness right now; “everyday, 1970s style” leftists may soon join them?

Even though Madrid has used and will use the fig leaf of “terrorism”, it simply will not suffice because the situation is clearly so different from France. Therefore, ruling by a state of emergency is going to be met with major resistance, I think.

Firstly, any leftist implicitly realizes their duty to openly oppose “ruling by state of emergency” in every non-socialist wartime situation. Secondly, from a political angle, every further crackdown by Madrid can be taken advantage of to promote leftism.

I assumed this was all going to blow over. You should start to consider that it shouldn’t. Both of these ideas are increasingly irrelevant, because it’s looking likely that it won’t.

Leftists must adapt to reality – otherwise, what are we, reactionaries LOL?!

Catalonian separatism is far from ideal, but at least it is succeeding

I return to my lede sentence: the problem is the regional nature of this movement. Catalonia lost its sovereignty long ago; it is situated in a multinational political project.

This makes Catalonian separatism appear like desertion, at least to many Europeans. How can leftists support desertion? But this appearance is wrong; the Catalonia movement can be co-opted – “joined” is another perfectly true and sincere word – to advance the needs of socialism/the 99%.

And it should be – otherwise, this remains petty nationalist capitalism. And that cannot provide any advance at all.

The debate then turns to: is allowing the rebirth of Spanish fascism better in the short run, in order for more people to see the light about true leftism? Because neo-fascism – the combination of militarism, control of the judiciary and zero-social safety net capitalism – is what currently rules in France and in the United States, and it will eventually provoke a sustained backlash. Mariano Rajoy is clearly bidding (or has been instructed) to join the other new “liberal strongman” peers in Trump and Macron, and Europe should try to remember that Turkey and Erdogan don’t live in a hermetically-sealed bubble.

Thankfully, Spain is not France: they have a genuinely “leftist” party with some power in Podemos. The France Insoumise party has cultural power but little real political power.

Neither of these groups are far-leftists, despite the media’s lies, and I’m okay with that, personally.

I’d like them further to the left, but I’m not going to alienate a genuinely leftist group of people. Contrarily, I have no problem alienating centrists/“fake leftists” who will only mobilize at the very end anyway, when the outcome is secure.

Podemos has thus far responded cautiously. The far-left can fairly criticize Podemos for thus far “tacitly backing” aspects of right-wing repression.

Nobody ever said the “every day, 1970s leftist” were at the crest of the wave…but I would be quite foolish to think Podemos cannot be part of a leftist revolution and, indeed, I would say a leftist revolution (within our pan-European project) cannot succeed without them. Therefore, my criticism of them is muted.

But global criticism of Madrid is going to explode if they continue in this line – it is truly staggering, their stupidity. If Podemos remains reticent then – they will be exposed as centrists and not leftists.

Madrid is only going to boost Podemos, and that’s good – they are not US Democrats, French Socialist or British Labor. They support the snap elections, as they should; but they are not selfishly “rubbing their hands’ at their chances to do well in the snap elections – the People are waking up and moving left.

We should also remember that Spain has not been subject to Western meddling, unlike Ukraine and 100+ other countries – this means Catalonian independence has a genuine pedigree thanks to genuine and historic support from the People of the area.

Theoretically, there’s nothing wrong with using that as a base to finally have a European movement which either forces true democracy/socialism, or starts a new project, or ends the project altogether.

A lot hinges on the next few movements by Madrid. It is staggering how they have refused diplomacy, which would most likely have defused the situation.

After the initial surprise, leftism recognizes what’s going on as part of the same old capitalist pattern, even if “neoliberalism” is a new concept to many while many have not heard the new “liberal strongman”. Madrid’s stupidity means we should start preparing to co-opt/join/support the Catalonian Rights Movement in order to end European austerity and capitalism everywhere.

Ramin Mazaheri is the chief correspondent in Paris for Press TV and has lived in France since 2009. He has been a daily newspaper reporter in the US, and has reported from Iran, Cuba, Egypt, Tunisia, South Korea and elsewhere. His work has appeared in various journals, magazines and websites, as well as on radio and television. He can be reached on Facebook.

twilight on October 30, 2017 · at 11:38 am EST/EDT

Our side is losing, and one major reason is tolerance of Deep State embedded agents in our movements. It is the easiest and cheapest trick to use top and bottom infiltration and to have those agents become the loudest ‘voices’. And soon naive ‘moderators’ will protect those voices from criticism or censure. But game theory allows their identity to be easily spotted. If they speak for the same major themes Tony Blair speaks for, they are not on our side.

Tony Blair reversed 250 years of British policy and forced a referendum on the Scottish people. Blair spent billions to this end, and tore up Britain’s ‘unwritten’ Constitution to do so. And his aim. To encourage disasters like Catalonia all across West Europe. Sine the British Union is the most famous, civilised and successful in Human History, to see Britain randomly encourage the end of the Union meant every idiot across the Earth thought there was something ‘good’ in the independence malarky. The old farmer’s trick of ‘leading by example’.

People who talk against this pressTV person are being threatened with bans here- and that sadly is the whole idea. To turn this place into an echo chamber. War approaches Iran at light speed, yet you are supposed to believe a ‘loyal’ Iranian, safe from the imminent destruction about to fall upon his people, working for a press agency spun out of the BBC’s World Service Persian desk (google this if you don’t believe it), wants to talk about anything but the coming war on Iran.

I’ve witnessed forums turned into echo chambers again and again and again. I’ve seen good hearted moderators easily bamboozled by agents trained at the highest level to ‘play’ them.

A year or so back, Zero Hedge was an insanely good anti-Deep State discussion forum, American based with growing pro-Russian sentiment. It did not go unnoticed. A zionist based operation had a group of agents join the forum, and one became a moderator. They targeted the pro-Russian sentiment, attacked the literate commentators (as we are strating to see here), and then the agent moderator started wholesale banning and changed the promoted stories.

Eventually the agent moderator was unmasked and removed- but the damage had been done. Intelligent people do not comment there now. The stories promoted are never pro-russian. Comments are limited to illiterate 2 line abuses and dumb racism. The David Icke forums went the same way, and are today a very awful joke.

I personally knew a person who acted as ‘driver’ for a small harmless protest organisation that operated on Sundays. He would talk about his enthusiasm to drive the people to their protest, but also how much he despised their cause. At the time I didn’t get it. Later it was revealed that it is standard practice in the UK for the state to use infiltration agents who offer their services as ‘drivers’ for this makes them so useful in small movements that are disorganised, and no genuine person wishs to provide transport or petrol. Numerous scandals erupted in the press when it was revealed undercover police officers acted as drivers for peace protestors and the like, and actually had romantic affairs with unsuspecting women members. The British Government has paid out millions in compensation for these abuses across the last few years.

Anyway my associate wasn’t a policeman. In the UK we have reserve forces for all aspects of the mililtary, people who play soldier on the weekend, but less well known is the fact that MI5 and military intelligence also has reserves. They used to ‘recruit’ people with ‘puzzle’ ads placed in the backs of the ‘proper’ newspapers, and today they do this online. This person of my aquaintance was one such ‘intelligence’ reserve, and was paid a small stipend to spy on this harmless protest group.

The major old cities of Spain are some of the jewels of Europe. You’ve all seen what has happened to the once lovely cities and towns of Syria with its fake civil war. Who would wish such a fate on the harmless people of Spain? Well the author of this article above for one- and moderators here are now protecting speech that calls for other nations to suffer the fate of Libya, Iraq and Syria.

99% of the foolish muslim kids recruited to the ‘terror’ gangs that operated in Syria were given the same type of soft soap by similar but less visible (to us) ‘Pied Pipers’. While westerners were sold BS about the sadistic nature of ISIS (which was a carefully crafted PR campaign of Hollywood value filmed atrocites), on the ground the movement was ‘socialist’ and ‘romantic’ as must always be the case when naive young fools are needed as ‘cannon fodder’.

I wouldn’t trust PressTV as far as I could throw it. Before being banned in the UK (having served its purpose there), I witnessed its on-the-ground methods- a reworking of the old state run ‘grass rotts’ ‘marxist’ groups of the 1950s, 60s, 70s (after which they were pretty much done). The British Deep State loves the ‘man of the people’ play. And never forget that France was the safe haven and planning ground of the Iranian Revolution, a revolution you are lyingly told the West did not want. Yes, so little did the West want the Iranian Revolution, when the West friendly Iranian diplomats in the UK tried to take their embassy back from the ‘revolutionaries’ an SAS death squad, for the first time in British History, was sent in on British soil to terminate all the ‘West friendly’ Iranians. The governments of France and Britian created the Iranian Revolution and ensured its success, much to the puzzlement of the Americans.

Back to Catalonia. All it will take is for a ‘group’ to dress up a few gunmen as ‘police’ or ‘protestors’ and shoot dead some protestors or police, and the civil war will begin in earnest. In other words, 2 or 3 malicious people, even without greater contacts, can light a fuse that will end in the deaths of hundreds of thousands, and ruin the lives of millions, and I have to read an article here saying such a circumstance is one we should support.

Let’s say the Las Vegas shooter was a lone nut. Are we to suppose there are no nuts in Spain? Do we want to take our civilisation to the point where a single nut can change the course of destiny for millions of people. This PressTV person says “yes”. It doesn’t matter whether this person is for or against violence- he is for a situation where a tiny act of violence will definitely lead to insane levels of death and destruction.

Look, take the UK or USA today. Stable. A terrible act of terrorism can happen, and all that will follow is greater peace for the people (forgetting the police state aspects for once). Violence in today’s UK or USA ***cannot*** trigger a rolling snowball of ever more violence. But Spain, today, is a tinder box. One tiny spark can burn the nation down, and some here are saying this situation is a “good thing” and should be encouraged, supported, and exported to the rest of the world. Stability is the greatest gift civilisation brings to ordinary families. Chaos is a prime weapon of the devil.

Those naive muslim kids that flooded Syria didn’t build a ‘utopia’ (as they had been promised by their pied pipers), but destroyed the lives of uncountable ordinary people, and helped destroy villages, cities and towns that had lived in peace for so many centuries. But the history of arson proves that even outside the Deep State are Humans that love to watch things burn. Do you want to see Spain burn as Syria burns?

Those that speak powerfully for Catalonia Independence are arsonists ***at best***. They will lie about Ukraine, for the people of the East were not the ones who were the ‘revolutionaries- no the revolutionaries there, inspired by the arsonists and the Deep State, were the NATO backed nazis of Ukaraine who forced the people of the East to protect themselves using every means possible. he people of the East were happy Ukranians until the day came when death and destruction appeared on the horizon.

Who threatens the mega rich of Spain’s Catalonia. Absolutely no-one. Bill Gates would love to be his own nation, and effectively is. All mega rich selfish people want to live in a castle protected from the rest of us by a moat. The drawbridge only comes down when the sacks of cash made by the efforts of the rest of us are allowed to enter the castle. Is that ***your*** idea of socialism? That’s the laughable definition of ‘socialism’ given by the pressTV person. Catalonia is rich, and thus hates the idea of distribution of wealth across Spain. Such selfishness drove the world before modern times. The modern world ***is*** socialist- and fabian America is the most advanced socialist nation of all in a higher sense – the highest standard of living and the greatest opportunities for all citizens if they take advantage of what the USA has to offer. For instance, ask this blog author why he and his family live there.

Socialism, high standard of living, equal access to opportunity, societal stabiliy all go hand in hand. And America fears not the idiot succession thinking of Catalonia despite having many regions far better placed to become their own nations. Chaos is for fools and losers.

But the pied pipers use another siren ***lie***. If the West is in ‘chaos’ it cannot be a threat. This is the biggest lie of all. Controlled chaos is the most fertile ground to build bigger wars from. When do we think of Rome at its greatest? When Julius Caesar, fresh from wars of literal genocide in France, took control of Rome with his military and installed himself as the first major dictator of that Empire. And the ‘chaos’ of his assassination took Rome to even greater heights, and led to the age of dictator Emperors.

The mongols became vastly more powerful ***after*** Ghengis Khan died. Germany and Japan reached their industrial potential after their defeats in WW2. The idea that the Deep State would be wounded by major civil wars in West Europe is just hilariously stupid. It ****wants*** these civil wars- and its agents thusly sing on behalf of them.

Unlike Americans, the people of West Europe have become ‘soft’ and forgetten what war means. The Deep State needs to reverse this. Wars on Iran and Russia need a lot of cannon fodder- and major armies are going to be raised in West Europe once again.

PS the comment section of this blog is currently amazing and the very opposite of an echo chamber. But once Slashdot, Zero Hedge, David Icke forums and others were pretty good places too. But then the bad people started to work in well planned co-ordination, and used very simple tricks, most of which involved abuse of the moderator system, to bring those forums down. Slashdot now daily demonises Russia. David Icke forums are ghost towns save for the sad non-too-smart loonies and depressives. And Zero Hedge has been neutered into irrelevance.

If this blog is to allow very dubious guest speakers to promote very dubious ideas, it is certain the comment section will be trained to be an echo chamber unless a robust conversation is not just permitted but welcomed. Crude destructive trolling should always be banned, obviously, and so should crude flag waving for the ‘other side’. Lovers of Clinton, Tony Blair and the Deep State have a million other places online to express their opinions, and of course should not be allowed to pollute the comments here- even in the name of ‘free speech’. But our side has to learn how to spot the operation of agents of the other side- even when some of these agents may be unwitting dupes.

Read Animal Farm again to see how many good hearted animals were manipulated so horribly by forces claiming to be on their side. This Catalonia play and its defenders are like a modern day version of the story from Animal Farm- so much so it is spooky.

104 Comments

Anonymous on October 29, 2017 · at 9:02 am EST/EDT

I dont know what s going to happen in Cataluna, but I can predict one thing for sure – the government in Madrid will do the wrong thing at every opportunity. Don’t underestimate the aggression and stupidity of the current politicians in Madrid.
Anonymous on October 29, 2017 · at 9:51 am EST/EDT

What is this propaganda piece?

Article gives conclusion:
“Catalonian separatists still do not have the democratic support of Brexit or even Scottish independence (30% in a new poll from El País), so it’s still a hard sell, but perhaps not much longer, as 52% want snap elections and parliament to be dissolved….”

But at least the saker article was so honorable to also give links to the propaganda outlet:
A poll published by Spanish national newspaper El Pais on Saturday showed more Catalans (52 percent versus 43 percent) in favour of the dissolution of the regional parliament and the holding of elections. Fifty-five per cent of Catalan respondents opposed the declaration of independence, with 41 percent in favour.
”

The source is a joke. Not reliable. “Offcourse” it will tell there is little support for independence etc etc. It is a propaganda attempt.

One of the few independence attempts in the last years which has not been heavily orchestrated by soros.
When Soros is involved, one can see his “trademarks” everywhere. From the extreme organizations, busses, minority extremist groups, to the small “sparks” used to ignite the bombs (metaphoric).

The Catalonian independence bears very little resemblance of Soros hallmark.
It isto unorganized, it is too “stupidøy executed” (lack the “profesionalism in execution”, etc).

The escelations in Catalonia is mostly due to many stupid moves on both sides. Which has drifted them more and more apart in the last 10-12 years.
- Ramin Mazaheri on October 29, 2017 · at 10:25 am EST/EDT
  
  If you mean this is a propaganda piece in the original sense of the term – that it is designed to sway people on a political subject – then it is propaganda: this is an editorial, after all, and not hard news which claims to be 100%objective. My opinion is all over the place, so it should be totally obvious.
  
  If you mean this is propaganda in the modern sense of the term – which is a derogatory term used to mean that you simply disagree with my point of view – I simply do not care if you have a negative opinion on my view.
  
  I do not even see what the issue is: I referenced two different ideas. 30% (actually 29% as I recall, but I rounded up) currently supports Catalonian independence. Another completely different idea – dissolving parliament to hold snap elections – is supported by 52%.
  
  I gave the links, as you noted – one of which was El Pais and another one was Sputnik Spanish. It is very unusual that somebody would call both of these propaganda… and then my independent journalism is propaganda as well?! I don’t know who you have left whom you would not call propaganda?!
  
  Therefore I must assume you are using the old sense of the term – and I commend you truly, because I believe this definition is the most honest. So I thank you for the compliment and simply hope my propaganda is intelligent, reasonable and honest, as all good political propaganda must be to change the minds of good people.
  
  And I also note that you concluded your post by repeating something I repeated perhaps four or five times: “The escelations in Catalonia is mostly due to many stupid moves on both sides.”
  
  Perhaps this is a case of great minds thinking alike, and I commend you on this great conclusion to your propaganda post.
  - TMWNS on October 29, 2017 · at 4:25 pm EST/EDT
    
    Reply to Ramin Mazaheri on October 29, 2017 · at 10:25 am UTC
    
    Words fail me. On the contrary below is Pierre Hillard’s take on the ‘divide and conquer’ rationale which is behind the regionalist ideology in Europe.
    The Saker moderation policy clearly states no attacking the author – your comment was removed. Mod
    
    Fortunately Moscow (en russe : Москва, Moskva, API : /mɐˈskva/) and Grozny (en russe : Грозный ; en tchétchène : Соьлжа-ГIала, Sölƶa-Ġala) have the intelligence and common sense not to fall into the trap laid for them by the likes of George Soros, Jacques Attali and the rest of their synarchy. You are the Press TV correspondent for Paris, so can easily figure out the gist of Pierre Hillard’s immaculate logic without a translation. Because behind ‘l’autorité supranationale de Bruxelles’ is the City of London, the Fed and the Bank for International Settlements in Basle. The Saker community to figure out exactly where this cosmopolitan set-up is planning to lead us. Here’s another clue :
    
    «This policy of Likud is an extension of the earlier Irgun and Stern Gang policy shared by David Ben Gurion himself : «to restore the Kingdom of David and Solomon to its biblical borders», the so-called Eretz Yisrael, or Greater Israel, or the vision for not only controlling the territory from the River Nile to the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, but governing the entire planet from a Jewish-controlled Jerusalem in global control of the International Banking System and all the nations of the earth in subservience to it». Was 9/11 attack a false flag operation? (Part II) By Jonas E. Alexis and Mark Dankof – October 24, 2017 https://www.veteranstoday.com/2017/10/24/was-the-911-attack-a-false-flag-operation-part-ii/
    
    «La promotion du fait régional n’est pas une fin en soi, mais une étape pour réorganiser toute l’Europe selon les critères éthniques et/ou économiques. Il s’agit de soustraire la région à l’autorité de l’Etat afin de l’amener à se fondre avec d’autres régions, l’ensemble devant constituer une nouvelle entité territoriale, politique et économique dépendant directement de l’autorité supranationale de Bruxelles […] Il va de soi que le président des Etats-Unis se moquent éperdument des caractéritiques historiques et culturelles propres aux régions européennes. Le fin mot de l’histoire est purement matériel. Les régions s’émancipent de plus en plus de l’autorité des Etats peuvant traiter directement avec le pouvoir supranational de Bruxelles où grouillent les lobbies et multinationales en tout genre». Extraits : Atlas du Mondialisme Pierre Hillard Editions Le retour aux sources juin 2017.
    
    Pierre Hillard est docteur en sciences politiques. This encyclopedic work costs 45 euros and is worth every penny.
    
    Yours sincerely … TMWNS
- B.F. on October 29, 2017 · at 12:09 pm EST/EDT
  
  Your comment cannot be accepted as accurate. Just look at the pro-independence demonstrations in Barcelona. Perfectly organized. In fact they were just too well organized. They bear the trademarks of Soros organized demonstrations. Obvious.
  - pavlo on October 29, 2017 · at 12:46 pm EST/EDT
    
    I beg to differ.
    The catalonian demonstrations seem well organized because they do it for ages.
    
    You see them just now, but it is just the climax, it has been brewing and growing for decades (and in some aspects even centuries).
    I don’t see the hand of Soros there (and it won’t be on the interests of Soros to weaken Spain, a good vassal of the globalists).
    
    And events, once unleashed, have their own life, and seldom go the way the people that started them thought.
    I’m not sure at all that the president of Catalonia had in mind what is happening now; I think he just wanted to force Madrid to bargain. But now, he had been forced to radicalize himself (as the humour emission of catalan TV put it “people came to St George square with stones, not knowing if to build a statue to Puigdemont or to lapidate him”).
    
    The interesting thing is that the catalan people just got a feeling of being able to have a say in their destiny, for a change. And that is a very strong and dangerous thing. Maybe, after voting independence, they would like to have their say on other things, like OTAN membership and things like that.
    
    Also, a lot of lines of breaking exist; it is not just a matter of “Catalunya province” against “the rest of Spain”; there are sizable groups, and even majorities, in some regions that would likely side with Catalonia.
    I don’t know if you read about it, but a group of basque police members publicly showed their support to their catalan colleagues against Madrid.
    What if people in the Basque country took the streets to ask for independence? What would the regional authorities do? what COULD they do?
    
    A far fetched view? Well, I can tell you that there WILL BE massive pro-Catalonia protests in the streets of the Basque Country as soon as there will be a military take over by Spain.
    And a military take over is inevitable in order to actually implement the “article 155”.
    - Don Wiscacho on October 29, 2017 · at 3:00 pm EST/EDT
      
      Pavlo hit it on the head.
      
      Everyone seeing “the hand of Soros” as the main actor would probably spot the image of his face burnt into their morning toast. Soros may be involved, he does have a global network, but to look to him as the main instigator and not the aspirations of a linguistically and culturally distinct region, misses the forest for the trees.
      
      However, this situation is not cut and dry, most polls I’ve seen from across the media spectrum put support for true independence less than half. This bears out repeatedly. However, most do want at a minimum more autonomy, a result found more or less across the board. So in reality, Catalonia is divided on the issue.
      
      Personally, I don’t agree with the stated and goals reasons of a Catalan secession. Here I commend Mr Mazaheri in teasing out such reasons: it isn’t a revolution ‘for the people’ but rather ‘for the elites’. The movement would be indeed more attractive if out wasn’t so transparently pro- capitalist, pro- Zionist, pro- right wing.
      
      However, Rajoy as the PP are about as pro- capitalist, pro- Zionist, pro- right wing as they come. They’ve scored numerous own- goals with the deployment of Guardia, the blocking of polls and brutality against voters. I have little doubt this would have quickly fizzled out hadn’t it been for Madrid’s overreaction.
      
      This is going to get interesting when we start taking about País Basco, Galicia, Valencia, Asturias, and all the other dominos that would quickly be looking to jump ship if the excrement hits the exhaust. If Madrid continues on its path of deaf force, they will break Spain like Humpty-Dumpty.
  - Carnyx on October 29, 2017 · at 6:34 pm EST/EDT
    
    B.F. said
    
    “Perfectly organized. In fact they were just too well organized. They bear the trademarks of Soros organized demonstrations. Obvious.”
    
    Yeah sure, because, until Soros came along, nobody on earth could ever organise a demonstration. The fact there are three well established pro independence parties that have existed since the 70’s and which are in local govt is of course completely immaterial, they could never have time to organise anything like this. As everyone who first heard of Catalan independence only about a month ago knows it’s all Soros, based on the remarkable observation that Euromaiden had crowds too! Obviously all organised street protests that have ever occurred from CND to anti-Iraq, to pro and anti Catalan independence are obviously Soros!
    
    Removed. No attacking other commenters. Mod
    - B.F. on October 30, 2017 · at 4:57 am EST/EDT
      
      Kindly take into consideration the following: Barcelona has a population of 1,6 million. Now compare how many people came out to demonstrate for Catalonia’s independence and how many came out to demonstrate for Catalonia staying in Spain. Are we to believe that the same people demonstrated in ALL demonstrations ??? What Soros did in Barcelona he did in other parts of the world. He used the cheap trick in having a minority represent the majority. Quite simply he bused into Barcelona supporters from all parts of Catalonia to give the impression that they all reside in Barcelona, when in fact they do not. Some weeks back he used the same trick in Moscow, when 700 “demonstrators”, basically kids, demonstrated against Putin. The Western media jumped to the occasion, covering the “demonstration” and pointing their cameras into the center of the “crowd” and forgetting to film the flanks, so as not to divulge how small the “demonstration” in fact was.
      - Uncle Bob 1 on October 30, 2017 · at 5:41 am EST/EDT
        
        That might be true,”except” RT films those demonstrations. Live feed and usually with drone cameras as well.Which shows the streets for many blocks wall to wall people.
        
        B.F. on October 30, 2017 · at 6:17 am EST/EDT
        
        The figure of 700 “demonstrators” was CONFIRMED by an independent Western journalist who has an impeccable reputation.
      - Carnyx on October 30, 2017 · at 7:19 am EST/EDT
        
        B.F.
        
        1.6 million is only the population within Barcelona municipal council area, the whole urban agglomeration of Barcelona in fact has a population of 4.7 million. Below is film of Diada (Catalan national day) in 1977, as you can see it’s as big as anything today.
        
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8pvLWXUL0w
        
        Catalonia and Spain in general have a culture of large demonstrations and collective outdoor events, which you just don’t find in colder climates. Both pro and anti Catalan independence marches have dwarfed any march by either side in Scotland for example, they are also notably bigger than Euromaidan. Of course people come to Barcelona from all over Catalonia to demonstrate for independence and from all over Spain for demos against. I don’t know why you imagine that proves Soros had anything to do with either side. It’s common for people all over Catalonia to take trips into the big city every so often, it’s not far there are trains and busses they can catch themselves, or they drive, local parties and pro-independence groups can lay on busses themselves. It takes about 1:40 mins to get a train from say Figueres near the French border to Barcelonia, if I remember correctly. The largest ever political demo in the UK was against the Iraq war, they had over a million, anti-war groups across the country rented out busses to get to London.
        
        The thing about Euromaidan was that it was supposed to be a spontaneous grass roots movement and it clearly was not. On the first night when only a few attended there were cameras all over, not normal for a couple of hundred protesters, but in a matter of three days they suddenly had infrastructure like stages and thousands of protesters, that requires funding you couldn’t find from scratch in just three days. Further the Euromaidan protest didn’t stop, they camped until their demands were met and that’s when the hidden financial backing became obvious. They had big expensive stages for the duration, they had canteens, medical centres, they had entertainment and lazer light shows to make sure nobody went home to see their families at Xmas and of course they had organised “security” batallions. The western MSM gave unanimous support to Euromaidan, whenever the western MSM is unanimous it’s a sign of propaganda, but the MSM response to Catalonia is much more hostile to mixed, the BBC is very hostile, the Guardian is middling, I can’t think of any MSM I’ve seen which is wholly supportive.
        
        The Catalan indy demos weren’t anything like that, they have long existing organisations to support and organise, but they do not have large permanent camps, they might rent a stage for a day, but people go home afterwards, that doesn’t require anything like the logistics Euromaidan had.
        
        You sound like someone who comes from a culture in which nobody ever demonstrates and you’d never heard of any until Euromaidan and thus assume they are all the same. Have you ever been to Catalonia? Have you ever taken part in a large protest? I first visited Catalonia in the 1990’s the place was covered with pro-independence graffiti, the Catalan independence movement is far older than it might appear to someone who has just heard of it this year and can only relate it to Euromaidan.
        
        Uncle Bob 1 on October 30, 2017 · at 3:14 pm EST/EDT
        
        Thank you,exactly correct. I’ll trust my “lying eyes” (and RT’s cameras) over a Western “journalist” any day.The need of some to deny the undeniable is stunning in its foolishness.But I suspect it is more a political ploy,than foolishness.They want to deny facts that don’t fit with their political thinking.And can’t imagine how doing that actually discredits them.
- Anonymous on October 29, 2017 · at 1:42 pm EST/EDT
  
  El Pais, though capable of some good news, is mostly a propaganda media source for the PP party and right wing in Spain. 2ndly, Soros has nothing to do with what is happening (this is not to say that Soros does not do this other places…). Absolutely nothing. All I have seen is that Soros gave some 27,000 to some part part of Catalan govt., but this hardly proves anything and is of such a small monetary amount to lack meaning.The real issue remains between pro-independence vs pro autonomy. The former has a slight majority, while the latter has a strong and clear support in Catalonia.
B.F. on October 29, 2017 · at 9:57 am EST/EDT

I am afraid that I cannot agree with this article. To state that Spain has not been subject to Western meddling is absurd. Those pro-independence demonstrations and the actual referendum were just a little bit too well organized to be a genuine Catalan movement. There is no question that foreign factors were involved and Soros style tactics applied, namely a minority being used to represent and bully the majority. What is the difference between Kiev in 2014 and Barcelona in 2017 ? I don’t see any difference, but plenty of similarities. The Spanish Government made two mistakes. It correctly stated that it would not recognize the referendum. However, it made the mistake of sending the police to prevent it, and it’s chief mistake was doing nothing in organizing the silent majority, which had no leaders. All the independence people had to do was grab the media in Catalonia and apply pressure on the municipal authorities, while the majority stood back in silence, scared to do anything about it. It was only after the referendum was held that almost one million people in Catalonia went to the streets demanding that Catalonia stay in Spain. This demonstration, as far as I can see, saw little media coverage in the West. Strange. Or is it ? The chief curse of Europe is that it is rich in history and tradition. This fact has its benefits, but also it’s weaknesses, giving a base for separatist movements. Somebody is very much interested in fanning the flames of separatism and bringing Europe back to the Dark Ages or mid Middle Ages. I wonder who is doing this. Perhaps the very same people who are encouraging mass immigration of false refugees into Europe and using them as a political Trojan Horse to break the back of sovereign European states ? I think this is indeed the case.
- RATM on October 29, 2017 · at 10:48 am EST/EDT
  
  I agree with all what BF said,
  and would add to the following:
  
  “Somebody is very much interested in fanning the flames of separatism and bringing Europe back to the Dark Ages or mid Middle Ages. I wonder who is doing this.”
  
  Beside the Anglo-World, there is also another player interested.
  Iran, for example, was targeted by the Empire for a long time,
  and would want that the target moves somewhere else, for instance Spain.
  
  Hence, propaganda pieces.
- Uncle Bob 1 on October 29, 2017 · at 1:55 pm EST/EDT
  
  One of the main problems I see constantly is a tendency to always blame “outside” interests for every event we don’t agree with. Its good propaganda in an age of conspiracy theory’s,but bad factual history. While outside interests “might” attach themselves to an issue.There has to be a real issue for them to attach themselves to.For centuries the Catalans (and Scots,Basques,Bretons,etc) have felt oppressed and many (most?) wanted separation.Blaming Soros or others like him for centuries old history isn’t credible.It might work with poorly informed people (which those doing so,count on),but its not credible for those that study history.
  - Anonymous on October 30, 2017 · at 12:30 am EST/EDT
    
    To be precise catalans, basques, and others havê historically been consistent on their reivindication of the primacy of their institutions, in oposition to the central powers that supressed them. In the case of catalonia it goes back to 1640, the basques later. Atributing the cause of separatisms in Iberia to Soros, Israel or other nefarious hidden hands is complete ignorance of history. it is ironic that a regime which is the direct heir of Francos ilegal dictatorship now claims to be the paragon of democracy and “rule of law” and there lies the problem. The spanish republic arose in reaction to a dictatorship that was ilegally allowed by the great grandfather of the present king, and arose respecting the then constitutional order. This should havê been tackled in the transition process, bit as Franco famously claimed claimed concerning his succession “all is tied up and well tied up” meaning the regime would not sucomb. Só when the likes of Aznar or Rajoy have the reins of power antybodies grow exponentially.
    - Fumarola on October 30, 2017 · at 11:06 am EST/EDT
      
      Basque and catalan ” historic ” revindications ….. and ” histeric ” revindications too . So if you happen to be the son of say a basque father and a catalan mother you probably belong to the most superior race of the world , sorry germans ,sorry wasps , sorry nordics , sorry ucrainians .. ….. and probably the father and the mother will speak between themselves in Spanish ,……
      
      The basques are the remains of iberian -ligur-etruscans who arrived mainly to southwestern Europa from the middle east , they were romanized by Rome , adopted latin , and to date iberian language ( basque ) only survived in the mountains of western Pirinees . In the times of Christ basque was still spoken in Zaragoza , and it was spoken in the mountains of Huesca and Lerida till medieval times .
RATM on October 29, 2017 · at 10:01 am EST/EDT

Hijacking wrong causes (Catalan independence) to
promote Socialism/Communism will tarnish both.

We will have war in Spain, and that surely isn’t a
win for Socialism/Communism.
Anonymous on October 29, 2017 · at 10:12 am EST/EDT

Ramin,
The (partial) activation of Article 155 does not mean State of Emergency in the sense you are seeing it, with lots of armed police, curtailed rights and rules for arrest etc.

It simply refers to the temporary suspension of Autonomic rule for whatever valid reason (for example gross incompetence by the local government.) It has never been used before in Spain, but similar things exist elsewhere. For example the autonomy of Northern Ireland (Northern Ireland Assembly) has been suspended on several occasions, sometimes for long periods.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Assembly

So far, Article 155 it is being applied in very limited way in Catalonia. The Catalan government has been deposed. It’s “embassies’ have been closed.

The article that contemplates state of emergency in the sense that you mean is 116. This has not been invoked at all.

https://www.thespainreport.com/articles/1129-170916162558-what-is-article-155-of-the-spanish-constitution-this-is-how-madrid-would-suspend-home-rule-in-catalonia
- Ramin Mazaheri on October 29, 2017 · at 10:50 am EST/EDT
  
  Hi Anonymous,
  
  I think I spelled that out regarding article 116, perhaps?
  
  “We also see that Brussels unambiguously supported the “nuclear option” of article 155, which (allegedly) gives Madrid the power to cancel historic Catalonian autonomy (nearly 40 years post-Franco).
  
  And why should we think that Brussels won’t also support the invocation of article 116, which would set up a state of emergency across all of Spain? They approved of the one in France, after all.”
- pavlo on October 29, 2017 · at 12:21 pm EST/EDT
  
  The thing is that direct Madrid control will be faced with strong local resistence.
  
  So either Madrid gives up, appears as a total fool for making unsustainable treats, and actually de facto accepting Catalonia independence.
  Or Madrid uses any mean at hand to enforce that “155”.
  
  Pandora’s box is open; or even better as Russians say: the toothpaste is out of the tube.
  
  When the people mandated by Madrid to take over TV, radio, schools, hospitals and parliament of Catalonia will come, and will be faced by thousands of people barring their path… what do you think will happen next? Those Madrid people just turning and going home?
  
  Things will continue to go to the worst.
  The only question is if it will go the path of Donbass (with part of the territory out of military control by Madrid) or the path of Northern Ireland (with all the territory under military control of Madrid but with a bloody guerilla).
  
  There will be tanks on the streets, because the toothpaste never goes back into the tube.
- Uncle Bob 1 on October 29, 2017 · at 1:59 pm EST/EDT
  
  Oh yes,we see how “well” that worked in Northern Ireland don’t we. Does the IRA come to mind.How soon will we see Catalans talking with old IRA and ETA people on how to proceed.I doubt it will be very long if Spain cracks down as many think they will.
Kfeto on October 29, 2017 · at 10:44 am EST/EDT

Eu is an international organization with only states as members, not sub-state entities, Spain is one of them. ‘Catalonia’ , recognized or not, is not even a member.

Why should EU care about them.

Besides EU citizenship only applies when someone crosses the border into another EUmember state, it is a derivative of ones own nationality.

An ‘ordinary’ Spaniard living in Spain can not invoke EUcitizenship against his own government, and certainly not if he does rejects his Spanish citizenship.
- Anonymous on October 30, 2017 · at 5:40 am EST/EDT
  
  “An ‘ordinary’ Spaniard living in Spain can not invoke EUcitizenship against his own governmen”
  
  http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM:l14527
  
  ” Protection of individuals in the event of incorrect transposition of directives
  
  In principle, the directive only takes effect once transposed. However, the Court of Justice of the EU considers that a directive that is not transposed can produce certain effects directly when:
  
  the transposition into national law has not taken place or has been done incorrectly,
  the provisions of the directive are unconditional and sufficiently clear and precise, and
  the provisions of the directive give rights to individuals.
  
  When these conditions are met, individuals may rely on the directive against an EU country in court. “
Macario el Viejo on October 29, 2017 · at 10:52 am EST/EDT

Regarding outside involvement in the Catalan independence movement, I’ve seen plenty of signs to suspect this is not merely a homegrown movement. Some reading suggestions.

Excerpts from: Catalan ‘independence’ – A Tool of Capital Against Labour
https://www.gearoidocolmain.org/catalan-independence-tool-capital-labour/
[…]
In 1992 billionaire and EU activist Freddy Heineken designed a map of a federal Europe. The new map proposed dividing European states up into 75 regions or state-lets under the central control of a European federal government.

The idea came from economist and philosopher Leopold Kohr who taught at the London School of Economics. Kohr advocated a form of anarcho-capitalism. He believed that the smaller the polity, the more democratic its institutions. Kohr proposed a return to Europe’s medieval micro-states as the best way of creating a supranational European federation.

Kohr’s ideas have become extremely influential in European Union policy circles. Trans-national financial elites want to make the European Union into the political representation of their power.A federal Europe of micro-states whose policies are determined by global elites would make it impossible for Europe’s citizens to unite against the trans-national financial ruling class; it is the reason why Heineken’s map is now becoming a grim reality – all over Europe.

Anarcho-capitalism is precisely what global financiers such as George Soros are promoting. It is hardly surprising, therefore, to find Soros funding behind Catalonia’s independence movement.

According to La Vanguardia, Soros has also been financing anti-Euroscepticism and anti-xenophobia marches in Barcelona since 2014. It is ironic to hear Catalan anti-racist ‘independistas’ justifying their separation from Spain with the argument that they constitute a separate ‘ethnicity’, given their paymaster’s support for mass immigration and multiculturalism. […] There is a strong possibility that US agencies of regime change such as the Centre for Applied Non-Violent Actions and Strategies (CANVAS) may be on the ground in Catalonia training activists for globalisation’s next ‘revolution’

https://sjobst.blogspot.ca/2017/10/whos-really-behind-catalan-separatist.html
The Catalan independence advocate, Barcelona High Court Judge Santiago Vidal, told the Barcelona Delta magazine in its Nov.-Dec. 2014 edition that it would be unlikely that Catalan separatists could appeal to the Central Bank of Europe: “But there is a solution for this: another state with solvency. Basically speaking of Israel and Germany, will serve as our temporary bank.”

Albert Pont, president of a pro-independence Catalan business association of over 1000 businessmen and executives recently said that the Catalan government (Generalitat) has an agreement with a “mediterranean country” to finance its independence: https://www.elindependiente.com/economia/2017/10/25/los-empresarios-indepes-generalitat-financiar-proceso/

Alejandro Cao de Benós [catalan communist working as Special Representative of the Foreign Ministry of North Korea] says that
the only way for Catalonia to be viable independently out of the EU would be by agreeing to become a Israel colony
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3A6xf4wKD0
- B.F. on October 29, 2017 · at 12:03 pm EST/EDT
  
  Excellent comment. As I have written above, somebody is very much interested in breaking up European nation states. Ofcourse this is done in the name of “democracy”. The reality, ofcourse, is that the smaller a state is, the weaker it is, and thus prone to foreign control. That is what is happening with Spain and Catalonia. However, I have a feeling that Madrid will win, as the majority of people in Catalonia want to stay in Spain. I wish Madrid every success.
  - Don Wiscacho on October 29, 2017 · at 3:14 pm EST/EDT
    
    Is it a mutually exclusive idea that there can be people from the ‘outside’ wanting secession at the same time as people on the ‘inside’ wanting secession? On my opinion no; some Catalans want independence, some not, some in the EU want to see an independent Catalonia, others not.
    
    What is important here is to ascertain who the main actor is. And while evidence certainly exists of globalists wanting the emergence of feudal mini- states, more than plenty of evidence exists of Catalans wanting independence. Ditto fit those wishing to remain party of Spain, but the point remains one can’t erase such history of indigenous secessionists with the brush of the globalists.
    - Katherine on October 29, 2017 · at 11:12 pm EST/EDT
      
      I just read the article at the link above (which includes many relevant quotes regarding the Israeli-Catalonian business connection):
      https://sjobst.blogspot.ca/2017/10/whos-really-behind-catalan-separatist.html
      
      If Israel wants it, it can’t be good!
      Seriously, the “Israeli-Catalan” business connection is extremely unsettling.
      Puts quite a different cast on the whole thing, one I hadn’t considered.
      It is probably not a good idea for leftists of any stripe to get into bed with Catalonian separatists and Israelis, nor to do anything to encourage such a relationship or let the Israeli camel’s nose into the Catalan tent.
      The Catalans must be vigilant against all Israeli blandishments offered to the Catalonian ruling class.
      
      Katherine
      - Azorka1861 on October 30, 2017 · at 8:21 am EST/EDT
        
        Cross Talk: Catalonia Rising
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWgDQ1d6gQE&t=9s
        
        Putin: West Opened the Pandora Box…….
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7-hf2hbGkw
        
        Proof of Israel Behind the “Independence” of Cataluna
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA10wIQXdJE
- Anonymous on October 29, 2017 · at 1:57 pm EST/EDT
  
  I FEAR that the FATE of Catalonians may be connected with the fate of Syria’s Kurdistan. A quick look at the map, is convincing that territories East of Euphrates are under the control of NATO / SDF. In my Opinion the partition of Syria looks imminent, and a similar staged event as in Catalonia may happens soon.
  With aerospace Russian force, any number of ISIS troops is irrelevant. Russia has the capability to destroy any number of ISIS, IF Russian would want to, but it is obvious that Russia does not want to do that, maybe because a previous USA-Russia agreement in this matter.
- Anonymous on October 29, 2017 · at 2:14 pm EST/EDT
  
  never underestimate the Catalan anarchists! I have met leaders and talked with them and trust me they are very organized and very intelligent. i do not think I have heard or seen anything at all leading me to believe Soros again had anything to do with this. I think the writer of this article has as an excellent understanding that yes independence or assured autonomy is a left-wing movement for most part (or the only part that really matters!). And this left-wing movement is more Catalan than anything else. An interesting point that very few if any talk about outside of Catalonia, is potential involvement of Russia. Numerous times over numerous years, many catalan have wondered to me if Russia might come in to support Catalonia-they say as a kind of mea culpa for what stalin did to trade unions like UGT Poum CNT FAI during Spanish civil war. I don’t know myself and this seems like far fetched dreaming, but imagine if V Putin had Russia (and China) recognize Catalonia as a country-as a means of supporting democracy!! And Russia offered support in the form of a small russian military base in Catalonia? After all the stuff the west did breaking apart Serbia and of course the on going game in Ukraine, in comes pinball wizard. I recently met a group of Russian military elite medics who were really great and very very smart. The most surprising thing they said was how upset and hurt Putin was with what the west did in Ukraine…yet, so far, russia (and china) has played ball and does not recognize catalan referendum. So, either this crisis will break apart and become much less important or the situation will keep escalating until foreign entities are forced to involve themselves on both sides.
- Carnyx on October 29, 2017 · at 7:01 pm EST/EDT
  
  Gearóid Ó Colmáin says
  
  “According to La Vanguardia, Soros has also been financing anti-Euroscepticism and anti-xenophobia marches in Barcelona since 2014.”
  
  He’s got this all wrong to the point of outright misinformation. Below is a link to the Vanguardia article he is talking about (you can use google translate)
  
  http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20160816/403969314802/george-soros-diplocat-financio.html
  
  It reports that Soros funded two “Catalan” groups the sum of $52 000 … peanuts basically. Both groups were specifically funded to hold one day conferences, not “marches”. $ 27,049 went to Public Diplomacy Council of Catalonia (Diplocat) which was set up in 2012 by the Catalonian Generalitat to promote Catalonia internationally.
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Diplomacy_Council_of_Catalonia
  
  $ 24,973 was contributed to the Barcelona Centre for International Affairs (CIDOB) to hold a one day conference on “Integration”. CIDOB is not a Catalan independence organisation, it’s a Spanish think tank based in Barcelona, it the oldest and most influential Spanish think tank, having been established during Franco’s reign.
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelona_Centre_for_International_Affairs
  
  It’s actually remarkable how little Soros has contributed, Soros claims to be promoting “democracy” “open societies” and liberal values like “self determination” this is what he says he’s doing in Eastern Europe and the US, so why is Soros excluding the Catalans nationalists? Same with the EU, US and all the EU govts taking Madrid’s side and giving it carte blanche to smash the Catalan nationalists.
Anonymous on October 29, 2017 · at 12:24 pm EST/EDT

The 40% of Catalonia that boycotted the vote are now out in force.

https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.en/https/colonelcassad.livejournal.com/3772802.html

What’s the peaceful solution to this? Reduce ‘independent’ Catalonia to 60% of its size, allowing the 40% against and the 60% for to separate?
- B.F. on October 30, 2017 · at 8:39 am EST/EDT
  
  In fact 58 % of Catalans boycotted the referendum.
  - jr on November 02, 2017 · at 2:25 am EST/EDT
    
    Anonymous and BF: We don’t know how many ‘boycotted’ the 1 Oct referendum. We do know the Spanish paramilitaries used brutal methods to dissuade potential voters.
Tony_0pmoc on October 29, 2017 · at 1:33 pm EST/EDT

This is yet another view of what is happenning in Catalonia. I have enormous respect for the author Gearóid Ó Colmáin. I’m not sure if I completely agree with him, but I do on most of the stuff he writes. He is seriously challenging my views, as I would naturally support Catalonian Independence, if that is what the majority in Catalonia want. I am not a supporter of police brutality in any situation….but maybe much of it was faked.

“Catalan ‘independence’ – A Tool of Capital Against Labour”

https://www.gearoidocolmain.org/catalan-independence-tool-capital-labour/

Tony
- Katherine on October 29, 2017 · at 11:30 pm EST/EDT
  
  thanks for the link.
  What Gearóid Ó Colmáin writes makes sense to me. And aligns with the comments of Sean Jobst regarding the “Israeli” playbook in Catalonia.
  
  Katherine
Anonymous on October 29, 2017 · at 2:04 pm EST/EDT

French ex Prime Minister Manuel Valls says he and other european leaders are on going to go Catalonia in December to show they support of Spain and to the fact that Catalonia should choose its destiny within Spain and within Europe

http://www.leparisien.fr/politique/manuel-valls-il-faut-prendre-garde-car-l-histoire-peut-redevenir-tragique-28-10-2017-7360347.php
Oui, je vais me rendre avant les élections de décembre en Catalogne, en compagnie d’autres dirigeants européens, à l’invitation de la société civile catalane. Nous voulons manifester notre attachement à une Espagne ouverte et au fait que la Catalogne doit choisir son destin dans l’Espagne et dans l’Europe. Il n’y a pas d’autre voie possible.
Kaluga on October 29, 2017 · at 2:51 pm EST/EDT

Was Article 155 even properly followed?

The Spanish constitution, Article 155 says:

1. If an Autonomous Community does not fulfil the obligations imposed upon it by the Constitution or other laws, or acts in a way seriously prejudicing the general interests of Spain, the Government, after lodging a complaint with the President of the Autonomous Community and failing to receive satisfaction therefore, may, following approval granted by an absolute majority of the Senate, take the measures necessary in order to compel the latter forcibly to meet said obligations, or in order to protect the above-mentioned general interests.

2. With a view to implementing the measures provided in the foregoing clause, the Government may issue instructions to all the authorities of the Autonomous Communities.

Was formal complaint even done?
Also it doesn’t say anywhere that central government can dispel parliament of Autonomous Community, I believe. It just says “…the Government may issue instructions …”
Jason on October 29, 2017 · at 3:57 pm EST/EDT

The problem with this issue is as you have stated: Catalonia does not want to leave the EU. What Catalonian nationalists should be doing is ally with the people of Spain’s more impoverished regions: Andalucia and Extremadura. Instead they seem to just be alienating themselves with this pro-capitalist nationalism. And it is not insginificant, I have seen many fascists in Madrid trying to play the more impoverished southerners against the wealthy Catalonians. Of course it’s bullshit(sorry Saker This article is by Ramin Mazaheri.Mod) because the Autonomous Community of Madrid is ta lot more wealthier than Catalonia yet those Madrilenos won’t develop those southern regions(http://www.eleconomista.es/economia/noticias/8295822/04/17/La-crisis-ahonda-la-desigualdad-geografica-las-CCAA-ricas-son-cada-vez-mas-ricas-y-estan-mas-lejos-de-las-pobres.html).

The Catalonians and Andalucians should learn from the Portuguese and they should create some sort of alliance against the fascists. And this is where I believe the Latin Americans can come in to aid their leftwing Iberian counterparts. Unfortunately the fascist Latin American right is gaining and the Latin American left suffers from that stereotypical phobia of all things Iberian, which is unfortunate because I believe there can be a sort of transatlantic, Iberian, leftwing alliance. Think of it as a NATO but of the south, a South Atlantic Treaty Organization, SATO.
Uncle Bob 1 on October 29, 2017 · at 4:15 pm EST/EDT

A new poll on Catalan public opinion is out on RT. It comes from a pro-unity with Spain source. So we need to be somewhat leery because of that. But “if” we can believe in it. It shows that 42.5% of people support full independence. And 43.4% support staying within Spain. Showing a difference of .09%. Not anywhere near the claims we see from the pro-Spanish posters,who claim the pro-Spanish side has a vast majority. Even more important to think about is that while the 42.5% pro-independence supporters are united on wanting independence. The 43.4% that support unity with Spain are divided between those that also want more autonomy.And those that are happy with things as they are.

https://www.rt.com/news/408155-catalonia-parliament-elections-poll/
- Miquel Sirvent on October 31, 2017 · at 8:45 am EST/EDT
  
  The source ‘El Mundo’ is pure propaganda when it comes to Catalonia. Not to be believed. The pro-Spanish media (or 90% of it) is more ‘fascist’ than the Spanish government.
vot tak on October 29, 2017 · at 4:44 pm EST/EDT

It seems likely that both sides are being played against each other here to benefit the same interests. The separatists to break up Spain into smaller, more manageable bits for the zpc/nwo oligarchs to control with their eu super state. The Spanish regime being tasked to make sure a conflict ensues in order to officialize a police state regular state of affairs to make the people remain subjugated, isolated and powerless to oppose their zionazi/nazi oligarch masters.
- Tony_0pmoc on October 29, 2017 · at 5:13 pm EST/EDT
  
  vot tak,
  
  Yes I agree. Your analysis is excellent, but do you think the people will remain subjugated, isolated and powerless to oppose their zionazi/nazi oligarch masters, or will they just quietly get very old and just fade away?
  
  I don’t know. I don’t think there is much you, I or even The Saker can do about it, except write our thoughts that hardly anyone in a postition of power is going to read.
  
  I’ve not given up hope yet….but most of them seem to be complete and utter total nimcompoops. It is not easy to change the minds of the idiots in control, or even have a rational conversation with them.
  
  Tony
  - vot tak on October 29, 2017 · at 5:50 pm EST/EDT
    
    TO
    
    “do you think the people will remain subjugated, isolated and powerless to oppose their zionazi/nazi oligarch masters, or will they just quietly get very old and just fade away?”
    
    That either or choice there sounds like one and the same outcome. I hope people in Spain realise the extent they are being used here, and transcend the conflict others have designed for them.
    
    And take those others out, in the process.
Anonymous on October 29, 2017 · at 6:54 pm EST/EDT

Mr Mazaheri ,

Please be courteous to the author or any further comments will go to trash. Mod

Removed Catalonia has a rich tradition of rebelion , The last 1934 rebellion of Catalonia proclamed by the catalan bourgeois nacionalist Governemet of Companys with the help of anarchists-leftists killed about 8000 spanish people , and triggered the Spanish Civil War in 1936 , that was not very progressist ……

Since Catalonia recovered its Autonomy with the Spanish democracy of 1978 the corrupt catalan Governement has been very disloyal , they have beeen very busy erradicating the Spanish language in schools and in civil life in benefit of the catalan language , just like ucrainians do

. Catalanists are supremacists , they think that being ” pure ” catalans ” or at least speaking catalan makes them superior to the spanish speaking people , or the inmigrants from other parts of Spain , Hitler would be proud of ” pure ” catalonians .

Of the 7,5 million inhabitants of Catalonia 1,5 are inmigrants , 1 million of then arabs . Of the remaining 6 million about 4 million are descendants of Spanish inmigrants , and about 2 million pretend that they are pure catalans , with catalan family names . Spanish was spoken spontaneusly in Catalonia ,as in the rest of Spain ,since tne middle ages . Of the 200 most common family names in Catalonia most of them are the same than in the rest of Spain .

The present coup d`Etat has been given , by the catalan bourgeoisie with catalan family names with the help of the lefto-anarchists , just like in 1934 . They are in a state ot trance ,just like the self destructive ucrainians . The Spanish Governement has been very very slow to react , until the catalan coup d ` Etat was evident .

It would be more productive to study the catalonian coup d` Etat from the psychiatric point of view ,than to elucubrate about politics like the present article does .
- Jason on October 29, 2017 · at 9:38 pm EST/EDT
  
  Yep they have arrived, the falangistas masquerading as leftwingers. Watch how they will start to compare the situation in Spain to Yugoslavia. Because you know Spain(Castilian, Catholic Spain) has always been an opponent of core Europe
  - Core Europe on October 30, 2017 · at 11:41 am EST/EDT
    
    The crowns of Castille and Aragon , that`s to say Spain , defended Europe from Islamic invasion during eight centuries , and afterwards defended Europe from the Turquish Empire during annother couple of centuries .
    
    Spain brought the european , or better, eurasian civilization to backwarded America , and europeized the Americas .
    
    Spain fought against the protestants rebels of northern europe , along with catholics from central and southern Europe , trying to defend the 1000 years old catholic european civilization against the rebels of northern Europe
    
    Jason , if you think that ” Spain has always been an oponent or core Europe ” …… well , what can I say ….. Spain , Hispania , gave 3 emperors to Rome , Trajano , Adriano , and Teodosio , Hispania was the most important Roman province , after Italy herself , Spain
    was visited by the greeks , the cartaginese ….Spain has been at the core of Europe for more than 2000 years .
    
    The protestants of north Europe are the ones that have not been at the core of Europe for centuries , they are the ones who were the oponents to ” core Europe ” greco-roman ,catholic and orthodox , they produced horrible protestant-protestant wars , protestant catholic wars , endless revolutions , the 2 World War Wars ….. well Jason …….
    - Jason on October 30, 2017 · at 3:00 pm EST/EDT
      
      @Core Europe
      I guess you don’t understand sarcasm huh? All of what you just wrote only proves what I’ve said, that Spain is a valuable asset to the European(or Frankish as medieval peoples use to call you guys) core.
      
      “The crowns of Castille and Aragon , that`s to say Spain , defended Europe from Islamic invasion during eight centuries , and afterwards defended Europe from the Turquish Empire during annother couple of centuries .” Futile really, the Spanish should have just focused on themselves but I guess being embroiled in useless and costly wars is the consequence of being sucked into the imperialist catholic vortex(Russia was more fortunate because even though they too had an Islamic menace they did not renounce their popular orthodox christianity unlike the Spanish who just let their kings impose the Roman rite and get rid of the genuinely Hispanic/Mozarabic rite).
      
      “Spain brought the european , or better, eurasian civilization to backwarded America , and europeized the Americas .” I can’t really agree or disagree here because for one I am christian and well that puts me against human sacrifices but at the same time I can’t agree that it was all beneficial, all that American wealth just went to enrich the European core. I mean the Spanish didn’t even invest it in their own country(look at the link I provided in a previous comment). As I said Spain, like Russia, is a peripheral European country, but unlike Spain, Russia was never catholicized that is integrated into the west’s imperialist system.
      
      “Spain fought against the protestants rebels of northern europe , along with catholics from central and southern Europe , trying to defend the 1000 years old catholic european civilization against the rebels of northern Europe” You are just repeating the same crap now. Look the bourgeoisie of northern europe got wealthy because of the wealth of the Americas. So let me get this straight, Spain loots the Americas, that loot goes to a bunch of merchants and bankers in northern europe, these guys then want to become independent from the catholic church(who wouldn’t knowing that greedy institution), so the looters of the Americas go to war with their correligionists in the north….okay I think I got it. Sounds like one fucked up oligarchic network man.
      
      “Jason , if you think that ” Spain has always been an oponent or core Europe ” …… well , what can I say ….. Spain , Hispania , gave 3 emperors to Rome , Trajano , Adriano , and Teodosio , Hispania was the most important Roman province , after Italy herself , Spain
      was visited by the greeks , the cartaginese ….Spain has been at the core of Europe for more than 2000 years .” No actually I believe Spain has been a good little lapdog of core Europe ever since the Spanish decided to get rid of their own Mozarabic christianity and become integrated into the Catholic west. 1) the Roman Empire was not identical with core Europe, the core of the empire was the Hellenistic east 2) Hispania was not the second most important province after Italy, it was most likely Egypt that was the second most important. The Greeks and Phoenicians also visited North Africa, Gaul etc, so what?
      
      “The protestants of north Europe are the ones that have not been at the core of Europe for centuries , they are the ones who were the oponents to ” core Europe ” greco-roman ,catholic and orthodox , they produced horrible protestant-protestant wars , protestant catholic wars , endless revolutions , the 2 World War Wars ….. well Jason …….” Core Europe is France, Germany, England, Benelux, you moron. Just google it and most maps will show Northwestern Europe and none will show the Roman empire. It more or less corresponds with Charlemagne’s medieval empire. There was never a Greco-Roman, Catholic-Orthodox core Europe. As I said previously the Greeks and the Romans looked to the east as their cultural “Mecca”. The oldest “Greco-Roman” gods were thought to originate in Phoenicia and Egypt, are those places in Europe? Sorry but no, Catholic and Orthodox have been at each others throats ever since Franks and the Roman church have tried to “recreate” the Roman empire. The “Byzantines” learned quickly about western duality(fun fact the Byzantines called these westerners Frankoi, Franks). That is why wanting to either be united with the Catholics or living under Muslim rule, they(Byzantines) chose the latter. Unfortunately the Hispanic christians have not realized the double edged sword that the Catholic church is.
Botifler on October 29, 2017 · at 7:03 pm EST/EDT

Today ( 29 Oct 2017 ) there was a unionist manifestation in Barcelona , full of Spanish flags ,with 1,300.000 people , two weeks ago another one with one millon people . And most of the people standing for Spain are middle classes ,people who work .

The independentists hardly can muster more than 300.000 in a manifestation and most of them are students , anarchists and weed smokers .
- vot tak on October 29, 2017 · at 7:40 pm EST/EDT
  
  b
  
  “and most of them are students , anarchists and weed smokers .”
  
  With that propaganda line, you announce who you spam for.
- Anonymous on October 29, 2017 · at 7:50 pm EST/EDT
  
  Botfler, i think you have mixed it up. Its more the other way around.
  
  Or have been reading to much madrid msm propaganda?
  1.3 million spain-unionist march in barcelonia… yeah right.
- Anonymous on October 30, 2017 · at 5:53 pm EST/EDT
  
  Boifler wrote:
  “Today ( 29 Oct 2017 ) there was a unionist manifestation in Barcelona , full of Spanish flags ,with 1,300.000 people , two weeks ago another one with one millon people . And most of the people standing for Spain are middle classes ,people who work .
  
  The independentists hardly can muster more than 300.000 in a manifestation and most of them are students , anarchists and weed smokers .”
  
  That is a propaganda lie.
  “Today” (yesterday) was around 300.000 very “organized” pro-unity protesters in Barcelona.
  And they came together with Madrid politicians.
  
  Wonder how many of those got bussed into Catelonia this time.
  
  There are a lot of pro-unity people also in Catalonia (mostly in Barcelonia), but the pro-unity “group” have never been able to muster any big sizeable protesters. Not in the size of the pro-independence protesters.
  
  But have to give them a recognizion for “finaly” being able to put up a big group (300.000), when they got help from Madrid.
  
  I am sure a lot of the very organized protesters (which came in groups from different directions) have been bussed in by the Madrid politicians to show the illusion of “force”.
  
  Atleast Spain has 10x as many people they in theory can “borrow” to take a trip into Catalonia for pro-unity.
  
  While it is doubtful that there are many Pro-Catalonia people in other parts of Spain;)
  So Catalonians can only “borrow” pro-independence people from other parts of the Catalonia.
  
  Madrid politicians are sneaky, so i dont trust them at all. And they are desperate with abusive powers.
  It was Madrid who removed some of the Catalonian autonomy in 2010. It is Madrid who has neglected Catalonia for the last 10 years.
  
  Please close down this tit for tat conversation. It adds nothing to the post. Mod
- jb on November 02, 2017 · at 2:34 am EST/EDT
  
  Not true. The Catalan police (Mossos) stated the 29 Oct demo had 350000 maximum. Independentist demos on catalan national day over the last years have had well over a million people each.
Botifler on October 29, 2017 · at 7:20 pm EST/EDT

If evil and tiny Estonia and Letonia who seem to be desiring an otanic war with Russia are helping the rebel Catalonian Governemnt with informatics

http://www.elespiadigital.com/index.php/noticias/confidenciales/18993-estonia-puso-en-manos-de-los-separatistas-la-tecnologia-informatica-para-que-pueda-sobrevivir-la-republica-catalana

and declarations

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20130914/catalunya-tiene-derecho-a-la-autodeterminacion-afirma-el-presidente-de-turno-de-la-ue-2655950

it is evident who in backing the catalonian coup d`etat , isnt`it ?

What a big disgrace was to admit in the UE the baltics , polish , rumanians etc…..
Botifler on October 29, 2017 · at 7:39 pm EST/EDT

Magnificent article of a Spanish , and Catalan , blogger ( in Spanish )

http://infokrisis.blogia.com/2017/102901-a-un-mes-del-1-o.php

His blog http://infokrisis.blogia.com/ , his name Ernesto Milà , I reccomend him to The Saker , He knows what is saying , about Spain , about his region Catalonia .
- Miquel Sirvent on November 02, 2017 · at 3:20 am EST/EDT
  
  Botifler: The chap you link to is very suspect politically. As a far-right political activist he fought the left during Franco’s time. He was a member of PENS (Partido Español Nacional Socialista), a neonazi party.
  Also you choose the name botifler, which is the Catalan name for a traitor allied to Spain.
Carnyx on October 29, 2017 · at 9:15 pm EST/EDT

Jens Stoltenberg, NATO Secretery General opposes Catalan independence
https://twitter.com/jensstoltenberg/status/923959757777534976
As does the German govt
https://twitter.com/RegSprecher/status/923938050052448256
And the govts of France
https://twitter.com/FranceintheUK/status/923968539098275842
Italy
https://twitter.com/angealfa/status/923968461319131137
UK
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/statement-on-udi-made-by-catalan-regional-parliament-27-october-2017
Portugal
https://www.portugal.gov.pt/pt/gc21/comunicacao/comunicado#comunicado-do-governo-portugues-sobre-a-declaracao-unilateral-de-independencia-no-parlamento-da-catalunha
Ireland (particularly shameful considering how they won independence)
https://www.dfa.ie/news-and-media/press-releases/press-release-archive/2017/october/statement-on-catalonia/
Poland
https://twitter.com/JakubKrupa/status/924005990613254144
Finland
https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-9905685
The EU
https://twitter.com/EP_President/status/923958096506089472
Turkey
http://www.mfa.gov.tr/no_-333_-ispanyada-katalunya-ozerk-bolgesiyle-ilgili-gelismeler-hk_en.en.mfa
The US
https://twitter.com/statedeptspox/status/923938695073423363
Kiev
https://twitter.com/PavloKlimkin/status/923932138797502464

More Sypathetic to Catalan independence have been the following

Scotland
https://news.gov.scot/news/statement-on-catalonia-1
Slovenian Social Democrats
https://twitter.com/Jan_Skoberne/status/923914663418613761
Corsca
https://twitter.com/JeanGuyTalamoni/status/923921591586705409
Finnish Lapland
https://twitter.com/KarnaMikko/status/923904022171578368
The Peoples Republic of Donetsk
http://dnrsovet.su/miroslav-rudenko-comments-on-attempt-of-forceful-disruption-of-referendum-in-catalonia/
South Ossetia
https://twitter.com/MaximEristavi/status/923307175300263937

Some in the Western MSM are suggesting that since Donetsk and Ossetia have voiced support for the Catalans that Catalan nationalism is all a Russian plot to destabilise the EU. And yet so many here imagine that Catalan independence is a EU/Soros/NATO plot. Of course it’s unthinkable that the Catalans are just dissatisfied with Madrid’s govt, that’s an outright impossibility, they just must be some outsider’s puppets, they can’t have their own reasons or agency.
- Ramin Mazaheri on October 30, 2017 · at 5:50 am EST/EDT
  
  Carnyx,
  
  Like many others of the Saker community in this article and many others, you have posted something which is extremely helpful. Many thanks for your efforts. I wish I could thank everybody who does that, but know that your efforts do not go unappreciated.
  
  And you make perfect points. Soros is to some people as “Russian plot” is to others – both deny the simple reality that political change is wrought through the simple dissatisfaction of a lot of simple people.
  
  Catalonia’s turmoil is grounded in reality. There might be some bit players making ultimately minor moves, but the Catalan people will decide their own future, whether people believe that or not. Because turmoil is the reality, each wrong move by Madrid radicalises the population towards radical change; each step of diplomacy decreases that. Who knows how it will happen, but Soros/Kremlin/Tel Aviv/tent-living refugees cannot possibly playing the deciding factor.
  - RATM on October 30, 2017 · at 9:48 am EST/EDT
    
    “but Soros/…/Tel Aviv/… cannot possibly playing the deciding factor.”
    
    … unless they hire professional snipers to radicalize the situation.
  - Carnyx on October 31, 2017 · at 11:19 am EST/EDT
    
    Sláinte Ramin, I appreciate your article too.
Latinoamericano on October 30, 2017 · at 7:34 am EST/EDT

Mr. Mazaheri is a very good economic and socio-political analyst. But as with all the “formally” educated intellectuals, he only learns from the established channels, which logically, distort and omit crucial info.
What is called Ex-paña (pun intended) has been infested by the Freemasonry very early after the takeover by Weishaupt, so it has more than 200 years of suffering a relentless demolition. First by the dismemberment of the Spanish Empire, then by war and division of Spain itself, then by Freemasonc and ziocontrol of the entire political class, and lately by the Khazarian godfathers controlling entire sectors of the economic sphere and the imposition of all the horrors of the NWO by the zioEU.
Even the clowns which are called: “the Royalty of Borbón” work for the zioCommittee of 300! And as observing Satanists, they marry transexuals who are paraded as models for the glamorous life.
Pabla (the leader of Podrimos: pun also intended) and Mario Le Pen are part of this guild, and obviously, they are false opposition.
All the leaders of Expaña have been ziopuppets, since a very long time. So this Dependence process is 100% ziocontrolled. Pigdemon (probably, a marrano) do not want a very well done consultation process which encompasses ALL Catalonians, including Valencians, and the rest of Catalonians who are satisfied with the autonomy that they already have. Pigdemon and his Khazarian godfather (the richest person? in Catalonia) only want to appeal to the extremist people or the manipulated ones and the usual sellouts. And Rajon (probably a LGTB and a Freemason), acts with incompetence because that is the script.
PS: This time, rumors are a valuable source of information, and they affect Mr Mazaheri directly: It is said that the endgame is: Obliterate Iran with nuclear weapons. Iran will justly defend itself, and will wipe out Rothschildia. There are 7 or 8 million Khazarians in Talmudia, then 1 million will hide in their antiatomic bunkers, and the rest will emigrate to guess where? Catalonia! and to the Patagonia which has already been cartographyed by IDF soldiers posing as tourists (this ongoing theft and Palestinization of Americans is called: “Plan Andinia”).
- Miquel Sirvent on November 02, 2017 · at 2:58 am EST/EDT
  
  What’s the big problem?
  Catalans have been struggling for independence from Spain for centuries. Catalonia’s parliament dates back to 1283, predating Castile’s by hundreds of years.(Castile was the central kingdom that ran Spain and still does). In 1716 Spain abolished all Catalan political institutions (at that time Catalonia had advanced laws such as prohibiting illegal dententions and the need for a judge’s warrant before invading a citizen’s home. The documentary evidence of this was found in private hands as the Spanish state had all official Catalan documents destroyed). These institutions were abolished in 1716 by ‘conquest of war’. That’s the foundation of the Spain/Catalonia relationship: Catalonia was subjugated by war imposed on it from Spain and France. The French absolutist model was imported and the Spanish Bourbon monarchs took over Catalonia. A Bourbon king still presides in Spain and again has betrayed Catalans (felipe VI).
  So Catalans know why they are not free. They are under the same yoke they’ve been under for a long time. The current PP government of Spain (and some ‘socialist’ allied politicians in the PSOE) has far reaching family connections to Franco’s ruling oligarchy from forty years ago). Catalans know they’ll never get a fair deal from Spain (the Basques have always had much greater autonomy as they were allowed to retain their ‘fueros’ or political codes and institutions. Catalonia would be over the moon if they were offered the level of autonomy the Basque country has).
  
  Catalan independence has been a long time coming. I am convinced it is just a matter of time. Many, many Catalans feel this (eg Pep Guardiola) and are giving the world a lesson in democratic, peaceful behaviour to achieve their goal. Julian Assange said the Catalan movement is the most Ghandian since the time of Ghandi.
Vicente on October 30, 2017 · at 8:45 am EST/EDT

You will be a supporter of the unity of Spain. I believe you. So far, all articles published on his blog are blatantly pro Catalan separatists. They are so stupid that they confuse franquismo with wanting a united Spain.

Please publish a pro-Spain article. Only to compensate for so forbidding anti-Spanish.

I have stopped reading RT and Sputnik. I see with regret that all pro-Russian media are anti-Spanish. It’s a shame because I’m pro-Russian Spanish. Until now.

Instead of whining like a spoiled brat and ignoring the fact that I did post articles by both sides (see here: /catalonia-two-opposed-views/) I wish you had done what the separatist Catalans did and sent me a well-written article in defense of the unity of Spain. Instead, you threaten to not read the blog like that is going to truly terrify me (as your boycott of RT and Sputnik most definitely terrified them). I sure hope that you are 16 year old max because your attitude is just so absolutely obnoxious. Oh, and just for the record, I am personally against Catalan separatism and very much for the unity of Spain. But that does not mean that I will not post other points of view. Grow up, dude!
The Saker
Macario el Viejo on October 30, 2017 · at 9:45 am EST/EDT

@ Carnyx
Ireland (particularly shameful considering how they won independence)
https://www.dfa.ie/news-and-media/press-releases/press-release-archive/2017/october/statement-on-catalonia/

Not shameful at all. I recently saw a comment of indignation at some ludicrous comparisons that appear here and there between the Catalan cause and the Irish cause. An Irishman would go out to kill or to die with a smile on his lips, humming a tune from his old martyred country, ready to face the music. The English devised every conceivable form of brutality and sadism against them, and they could not subdue them.

And what do we see here? The pampered Catalan politicians don’t even have the guts to make a straightforward proclamation. Compare Patrick Pearse reading out the Irish Proclamation in 1916, with Puigdemont mumbling a bunch of slippery weasel dada words into a suspension of a proclamation he had never made. And his endlessly weasel behavior in the last few days. And compare them also with the spectacle of those independentist PMs, getting their footsies all cold when they were about to issue a simple Yes or No vote for the proclamation, and changing the format at the last minute in order to issue a secret vote, after all the opposition had left the room in disgust. Secret vote, you know. Because they want their independence so much they are afraid to even say they do.

Why on earth should Ireland support them?

Now I hear they are in Belgium, trying their new diapers.
- Miquel Sirvent on November 02, 2017 · at 3:31 am EST/EDT
  
  You are wrong about the parliamentary procedure. The opposition left because they can’t face the music. The final voting was 70 in favour and 10 against.
  
  Catalonia is not Ireland. We aim to have a peaceful process. There have been many provocations from the Spanish state, and their neofascist supporters, and they will continue, but Catalans chant in their demos “Som gent de pau” (we are people of peace).
Anonymous on October 30, 2017 · at 9:52 am EST/EDT

“BREAKING: Deposed Catalan President Puigdemont allegedly flees to Belgium

“Spain’s Attorney General Jose Manuel Maza has told local media that Madrid plans to file charges against deposed Catalan President Carles Puigdemont and his deputies, in the aftermath of declaring Catalonia a sovereign republic.

Many openly suspect that the deposed Catalan leadership will be charged with “rebellion”, which in Spain can carry a 30 year prison sentence. Additionally, it is thought that the Catalan leaders will also be charged with sedition and embezzlement by Madrid.” …

http://theduran.com/breaking-deposed-catalan-president-puigdemont-allegedly-flees-belgium/
twilight on October 30, 2017 · at 11:38 am EST/EDT

Our side is losing, and one major reason is tolerance of Deep State embedded agents in our movements. It is the easiest and cheapest trick to use top and bottom infiltration and to have those agents become the loudest ‘voices’. And soon naive ‘moderators’ will protect those voices from criticism or censure. But game theory allows their identity to be easily spotted. If they speak for the same major themes Tony Blair speaks for, they are not on our side.

Tony Blair reversed 250 years of British policy and forced a referendum on the Scottish people. Blair spent billions to this end, and tore up Britain’s ‘unwritten’ Constitution to do so. And his aim. To encourage disasters like Catalonia all across West Europe. Sine the British Union is the most famous, civilised and successful in Human History, to see Britain randomly encourage the end of the Union meant every idiot across the Earth thought there was something ‘good’ in the independence malarky. The old farmer’s trick of ‘leading by example’.

People who talk against this pressTV person are being threatened with bans here- and that sadly is the whole idea. To turn this place into an echo chamber. War approaches Iran at light speed, yet you are supposed to believe a ‘loyal’ Iranian, safe from the imminent destruction about to fall upon his people, working for a press agency spun out of the BBC’s World Service Persian desk (google this if you don’t believe it), wants to talk about anything but the coming war on Iran.

I’ve witnessed forums turned into echo chambers again and again and again. I’ve seen good hearted moderators easily bamboozled by agents trained at the highest level to ‘play’ them.

A year or so back, Zero Hedge was an insanely good anti-Deep State discussion forum, American based with growing pro-Russian sentiment. It did not go unnoticed. A zionist based operation had a group of agents join the forum, and one became a moderator. They targeted the pro-Russian sentiment, attacked the literate commentators (as we are strating to see here), and then the agent moderator started wholesale banning and changed the promoted stories.

Eventually the agent moderator was unmasked and removed- but the damage had been done. Intelligent people do not comment there now. The stories promoted are never pro-russian. Comments are limited to illiterate 2 line abuses and dumb racism. The David Icke forums went the same way, and are today a very awful joke.

I personally knew a person who acted as ‘driver’ for a small harmless protest organisation that operated on Sundays. He would talk about his enthusiasm to drive the people to their protest, but also how much he despised their cause. At the time I didn’t get it. Later it was revealed that it is standard practice in the UK for the state to use infiltration agents who offer their services as ‘drivers’ for this makes them so useful in small movements that are disorganised, and no genuine person wishs to provide transport or petrol. Numerous scandals erupted in the press when it was revealed undercover police officers acted as drivers for peace protestors and the like, and actually had romantic affairs with unsuspecting women members. The British Government has paid out millions in compensation for these abuses across the last few years.

Anyway my associate wasn’t a policeman. In the UK we have reserve forces for all aspects of the mililtary, people who play soldier on the weekend, but less well known is the fact that MI5 and military intelligence also has reserves. They used to ‘recruit’ people with ‘puzzle’ ads placed in the backs of the ‘proper’ newspapers, and today they do this online. This person of my aquaintance was one such ‘intelligence’ reserve, and was paid a small stipend to spy on this harmless protest group.

The major old cities of Spain are some of the jewels of Europe. You’ve all seen what has happened to the once lovely cities and towns of Syria with its fake civil war. Who would wish such a fate on the harmless people of Spain? Well the author of this article above for one- and moderators here are now protecting speech that calls for other nations to suffer the fate of Libya, Iraq and Syria.

99% of the foolish muslim kids recruited to the ‘terror’ gangs that operated in Syria were given the same type of soft soap by similar but less visible (to us) ‘Pied Pipers’. While westerners were sold BS about the sadistic nature of ISIS (which was a carefully crafted PR campaign of Hollywood value filmed atrocites), on the ground the movement was ‘socialist’ and ‘romantic’ as must always be the case when naive young fools are needed as ‘cannon fodder’.

I wouldn’t trust PressTV as far as I could throw it. Before being banned in the UK (having served its purpose there), I witnessed its on-the-ground methods- a reworking of the old state run ‘grass rotts’ ‘marxist’ groups of the 1950s, 60s, 70s (after which they were pretty much done). The British Deep State loves the ‘man of the people’ play. And never forget that France was the safe haven and planning ground of the Iranian Revolution, a revolution you are lyingly told the West did not want. Yes, so little did the West want the Iranian Revolution, when the West friendly Iranian diplomats in the UK tried to take their embassy back from the ‘revolutionaries’ an SAS death squad, for the first time in British History, was sent in on British soil to terminate all the ‘West friendly’ Iranians. The governments of France and Britian created the Iranian Revolution and ensured its success, much to the puzzlement of the Americans.

Back to Catalonia. All it will take is for a ‘group’ to dress up a few gunmen as ‘police’ or ‘protestors’ and shoot dead some protestors or police, and the civil war will begin in earnest. In other words, 2 or 3 malicious people, even without greater contacts, can light a fuse that will end in the deaths of hundreds of thousands, and ruin the lives of millions, and I have to read an article here saying such a circumstance is one we should support.

Let’s say the Las Vegas shooter was a lone nut. Are we to suppose there are no nuts in Spain? Do we want to take our civilisation to the point where a single nut can change the course of destiny for millions of people. This PressTV person says “yes”. It doesn’t matter whether this person is for or against violence- he is for a situation where a tiny act of violence will definitely lead to insane levels of death and destruction.

Look, take the UK or USA today. Stable. A terrible act of terrorism can happen, and all that will follow is greater peace for the people (forgetting the police state aspects for once). Violence in today’s UK or USA ***cannot*** trigger a rolling snowball of ever more violence. But Spain, today, is a tinder box. One tiny spark can burn the nation down, and some here are saying this situation is a “good thing” and should be encouraged, supported, and exported to the rest of the world. Stability is the greatest gift civilisation brings to ordinary families. Chaos is a prime weapon of the devil.

Those naive muslim kids that flooded Syria didn’t build a ‘utopia’ (as they had been promised by their pied pipers), but destroyed the lives of uncountable ordinary people, and helped destroy villages, cities and towns that had lived in peace for so many centuries. But the history of arson proves that even outside the Deep State are Humans that love to watch things burn. Do you want to see Spain burn as Syria burns?

Those that speak powerfully for Catalonia Independence are arsonists ***at best***. They will lie about Ukraine, for the people of the East were not the ones who were the ‘revolutionaries- no the revolutionaries there, inspired by the arsonists and the Deep State, were the NATO backed nazis of Ukaraine who forced the people of the East to protect themselves using every means possible. he people of the East were happy Ukranians until the day came when death and destruction appeared on the horizon.

Who threatens the mega rich of Spain’s Catalonia. Absolutely no-one. Bill Gates would love to be his own nation, and effectively is. All mega rich selfish people want to live in a castle protected from the rest of us by a moat. The drawbridge only comes down when the sacks of cash made by the efforts of the rest of us are allowed to enter the castle. Is that ***your*** idea of socialism? That’s the laughable definition of ‘socialism’ given by the pressTV person. Catalonia is rich, and thus hates the idea of distribution of wealth across Spain. Such selfishness drove the world before modern times. The modern world ***is*** socialist- and fabian America is the most advanced socialist nation of all in a higher sense – the highest standard of living and the greatest opportunities for all citizens if they take advantage of what the USA has to offer. For instance, ask this blog author why he and his family live there.

Socialism, high standard of living, equal access to opportunity, societal stabiliy all go hand in hand. And America fears not the idiot succession thinking of Catalonia despite having many regions far better placed to become their own nations. Chaos is for fools and losers.

But the pied pipers use another siren ***lie***. If the West is in ‘chaos’ it cannot be a threat. This is the biggest lie of all. Controlled chaos is the most fertile ground to build bigger wars from. When do we think of Rome at its greatest? When Julius Caesar, fresh from wars of literal genocide in France, took control of Rome with his military and installed himself as the first major dictator of that Empire. And the ‘chaos’ of his assassination took Rome to even greater heights, and led to the age of dictator Emperors.

The mongols became vastly more powerful ***after*** Ghengis Khan died. Germany and Japan reached their industrial potential after their defeats in WW2. The idea that the Deep State would be wounded by major civil wars in West Europe is just hilariously stupid. It ****wants*** these civil wars- and its agents thusly sing on behalf of them.

Unlike Americans, the people of West Europe have become ‘soft’ and forgetten what war means. The Deep State needs to reverse this. Wars on Iran and Russia need a lot of cannon fodder- and major armies are going to be raised in West Europe once again.

PS the comment section of this blog is currently amazing and the very opposite of an echo chamber. But once Slashdot, Zero Hedge, David Icke forums and others were pretty good places too. But then the bad people started to work in well planned co-ordination, and used very simple tricks, most of which involved abuse of the moderator system, to bring those forums down. Slashdot now daily demonises Russia. David Icke forums are ghost towns save for the sad non-too-smart loonies and depressives. And Zero Hedge has been neutered into irrelevance.

If this blog is to allow very dubious guest speakers to promote very dubious ideas, it is certain the comment section will be trained to be an echo chamber unless a robust conversation is not just permitted but welcomed. Crude destructive trolling should always be banned, obviously, and so should crude flag waving for the ‘other side’. Lovers of Clinton, Tony Blair and the Deep State have a million other places online to express their opinions, and of course should not be allowed to pollute the comments here- even in the name of ‘free speech’. But our side has to learn how to spot the operation of agents of the other side- even when some of these agents may be unwitting dupes.

Read Animal Farm again to see how many good hearted animals were manipulated so horribly by forces claiming to be on their side. This Catalonia play and its defenders are like a modern day version of the story from Animal Farm- so much so it is spooky.
- Botifler on October 30, 2017 · at 12:03 pm EST/EDT
  
  Very good , very intelligent and realistic comment , bravo !!!!! and thank you !!!!!
- MarkinPNW on October 30, 2017 · at 4:42 pm EST/EDT
  
  “This Catalonia play and its defenders are like a modern day version of the story from Animal Farm…”
  
  And wasn’t the author’s personal experience with the traumatic events of Catalonia and Spain in the mid to late 1930’s his inspiration for Animal Farm?
- Miquel Sirvent on October 31, 2017 · at 8:55 am EST/EDT
  
  You understand nothing about Catalonia (or its history) and its inclusive culture. You throw them into the same bag as any other conflict you care to mention. If you don’t understand something, best not to confuse things.
- Carnyx on October 31, 2017 · at 1:33 pm EST/EDT
  
  Twighlight said
  
  “Tony Blair reversed 250 years of British policy and forced a referendum on the Scottish people. Blair spent billions to this end, and tore up Britain’s ‘unwritten’ Constitution to do so.”
  
  This is simply factually not true, the war criminal Blair left office in 2007, the Scottish referendum was agreed between Tory PM David Cameron and Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond in 2012 and held in 2014. It’s bizarre because you don’t actually need to endlessly repeat basic factual errors in order to argue against Scottish independence. The Union of Scottish and English parliaments was in 1707, that’s 310 years ago, not 250!
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Agreement_(2012)
  
  45% of Scots voted Yes to Independence, I’m one of them, before 2014 the majority of Scots wanted a referendum, hard core Unionists are only 30% of the population, all the Yes voters and many No voters wanted a referendum. Scotland is divided roughly by three thirds, pro-independence, devo max (people who want more autonomy but who are cautious about full independence) and hardcore unionists, of these thirds the Devo Max people are the largest, the Unionists the smallest. The political battle was between the independence supporters and Unionists to attract the Devo-Max people in the middle into their own camp. The SNP were elected to Hollyrood on the basis they would hold a referendum.
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_election,_2011
  
  Unlike in Spain, there is nothing in the British constitution forbidding any referendum, the British PM agreed to hold one so it was constitutional, this is an advantage Scotland has over Catalonia. So David Cameron tore up nothing to allow a referendum.
  
  I’ve told you all this before Twighlight but you persist in spreading outright misinformation, the only thing you ever change is the number of years the union has existed, but every single one I’ve seen is still wrong!
  
  I certainly hope “your side”, whatever that is, is indeed losing as you say, because it appears to be the side that ignores facts, arguments and evidence and instead presumes to lecture everyone on subjects you demonstrably know nothing about! Ignorance is forgivable, nobody knows everything, willful ignorance is not, the arrogence of presuming you know better when you don’t is contemptable, but deliberately misinforming readers who don’t know any better is outright malicious, which are you?
  
  You might be confused, because Blair did once force a referendum on Scotland in 1997, this was a vote on establishing a devolved Scottish parliament, on devolution not independence, the reason many Scots opposed the 1997 referendum was because they wanted the Parliament established without a vote as a result of the 1979 referendum on the same issue when Scots were denied a parliament despite the majority actually voting for one. However in the 1997 referendum Scots voted by 74% for devolution and it happened.
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_devolution_referendum,_1979
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_devolution_referendum,_1997
  
  Since you started out with an outright factual error I did not bother reading the rest, presuming it was of similar quality.
Celtiberian on October 30, 2017 · at 11:39 am EST/EDT

Dear Mr Mazaheri,

For a Spanish reader like me, your piece looks more like a projection of your worldview onto something that you don´t deeply understand, rather than an informed analysis.

Please consider this:

1) the Catalan secesionist movement & their leaders ARE RACIST. Anti-Spain racists, that is. Plus if you consider their strong ties with the apartheid state of Israel well then, that makes them double racist…
2) the pro-independence leaders don´t give a shit for the wellbeing or the common people in Catalonia. A forceful independence would be an economic disaster for Catalonia, with mass unemployment, poverty, etc. Case in point: Puigdemont urged his supportes to go to the streets and confront the police, while at the first of personal harm, he flees like a rat. To Brussels of all places…
3) While I´m no fan at all of Mariano Rajoy, the government in Madrid has responded these last two weeks with quite restraint and patience.
4) Nobody here except four exalted individuals are talking about tanks on the streets, military takeover of Catalonia, or similar nonsense. Please stop that. It´s not going to happen.
5) There is History and Politics in Spain besides Franco.
6) Podemos is essentially a fake-left party. Sadly. Many rank and file people in the party are really well-meaning, true leftists, but the leaders, specially Pablo Iglesias, smell foul…
7) nobody seems to remember the other 50+% of Catalans of all ages and political views that are totally appalled by the manipulations and excesses of the independence party.
8) many of the people in the rest of Spain that support the indepence movement are “self hating Spaniards” that think that everything Anglo is the best of the world and everything Spanish is shite. They stand in the same cathegory as USA-loving Iranians or Russians.
- Miquel Sirvent on November 02, 2017 · at 3:46 am EST/EDT
  
  Celtiberian: Every point you make is wrong, I’m afraid. Additionally, you’ve failed to back up anything.
  However, the whole world now, since watching the Spanish state in action on Oct 1st, realizes that Spain does represent a kind of neofascist approach to statehood.
  
  On the topic of racism, again you offer know evidence for your claims about Catalonia. On the other hand the whole world saw the ‘unionist’ demo recently in Barcelona with its attendant groups of neo-fascist gangs, that come out with their Franco salutes and anthems, and Francoist flags and looked for bystanders to attack physically.
Macario el Viejo on October 30, 2017 · at 12:23 pm EST/EDT

Saw this thread about Theo Francken, the guy who offered Puigdemont asylum in Belgium. https://twitter.com/BeaRios_/status/924986632100569088

Francken is Secretary of State for Migration and Asylum in Belgium. In 2014 he participated, along with another member of the government, in the celebration of Bob Maes birthday. Bob Maes is a founder of VMO, which is an extreme right organization, heir to the Flamish (nazi) collaborationists
http://www.lesoir.be/archive/recup/680014/article/actualite/belgique/elections-2014/federales/2014-10-14/francken-et-weyts-n-va-l-anniversaire-d-une-figure-du-vmo

As Secretary of State for Migration and Asylum, Francken has been very vocal against migrants. He denies it, but his Greek counterpart has accused him of saying that the migrants should be stopped at any cost, even if they drown. http://www.7sur7.be/7s7/fr/34762/Crise-des-refugies/article/detail/2597946/2016/01/27/Francken-se-defend-Je-n-ai-jamais-dit-noyez-les.dhtml

He used the word “cleansing” in his FB account when referring to a police operation against irregular migrants. He sent letters to Iraqi refugee applicants asking them to withdraw their application.
http://plus.lesoir.be/8581/article/2015-10-09/theo-francken-ecrit-aux-irakiens-et-leur-demande-de-rentrer-chez-eux

Point being, he belongs to the hard line wing of a Flamish nationalist party. His offer has nothing to do with Human Rights in Spain. It has only political motivations. The Belgian government consists of a delicate coalition from different parties. His party, N-VA, is one of the parties with most representation in the government. A possible asylum demand could shatter the fragile balance in this coalition government. Not to mention a possible diplomatic crisis between Belgium and Spain. Another problem for the UE, which, according to Junker, already has enough fissures.

And here begins another thread about what may happen if Puigdemont applied for asylum (in Spanish)
https://twitter.com/adelgadoRne/status/924591590034886656
Kristine on October 30, 2017 · at 1:21 pm EST/EDT

If we could just take this discussion off politics for a moment. I believe the first influence comes from your parents, your family. Then your language, culture, what foods you eat, how you socialise. In the case of Catalonia, it appears to be more than just politics. It appears to be ingrained in Catalan society, art, culture, language, food, history… So why are we discussing their entire virtue to become independent only on a political level? Am I missing something here? Shouldn’t we be discussing the inherent Catalan virtues too?
Paisos Catalans on October 30, 2017 · at 1:25 pm EST/EDT

While the separatists dream with the Catalan Empire ( Paisos Catalans ) the catalan firms get their social and fiscal sieges out of Catalonia , mainly to Madrid . At todays date 30 nov 2018 about 1,800 firms have left Catalonia , fearful of separatists/anarchists proven capacity to ruin everything .

The separatists would not end their struggle even if the independence of Catalonia was granted , they reclaim officially what they call Paisos Catalans ( catalan countries ) which include , besides Catalonia ,Valencia , Mallorca , part of Aragon , the French Rousillon , the italian island of Sardaigne , and eventually the Languedoc , Naples , Sicily ………

Cataloniaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ,onfalos mundi
Macario el Viejo on October 30, 2017 · at 3:42 pm EST/EDT

Removed. No attacking the author as per moderation policy. Mod

Suggesting that Madrid might next “order” to kill some protesters is just extraordinarily puzzling and really makes you wonder what the intention of this whole piece might be. Of course the killing of protesters can only help one side. We all know which side. Why is Ramin suggesting that Madrid may go ahead and “order” such a thing? “José, go kill me a few protesters. This is an order. I want it done by tomorrow.”

Then there is this gratuitous claim that Spain is “planning to impose” a state of emergency, by linking to an article that falsely claims that Spain has actually imposed a state of emergency. When did that happen? I speak with people in Spain every day and I have not heard that piece of news. And then saying that a bloodbath cannot be prevented if an “authoritarian state” really wants it. Right. As if the Spanish state were not aware that a bloodbath is exactly the very last thing it wants. Why would you suggest it wants it? The reader here begins to scratch his head.

And then:
“Protester deaths would get the left (not the fake left) on board.”

“I am not hoping”, he says, “for deaths to achieve political goals”

Oh, no. Not at all. It only *sounds* to me like you are. But it might be purely an illusion.

If you cannot make comments backed up by facts – then please dont make them. Your whole comment is just becoming an attack based on your feelings and nothing else. Mod

“What I am saying is we cannot wait to extend our support… due to our opposition to authoritarianism”

Is there any nation-state anywhere that would just shrug its shoulders if a region within itself would pull a stunt such as the Catalans have? “We want to leave because… we are insufficiently happy with our level of autonomy, even though it is one of the greatest in the world. We deserve better. We want greater happiness. We want our own state à la carte. So there. We will organize a referendum our own way, and then we will just walk out, even if the Constitution that we overwhelmingly voted for in 1978 expressly says this not allowed.”

How many nation-states do you know, that would allow secession of one of its regions on grounds such as those described above, and with methods like the ones described above?

Seriously, would Iran allow something like that in those or similar terms. Why not?

Would the US allow one of its states to create legislation to secede and then proceed with something like that?

There might be circumstances under which these things can justifiably be done. Some serious thought about when and how these things can be contemplated has been given.

For example:

Canada’s Clarity Act
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-31.8/FullText.html

Catalonian independence and the European Union
https://www.ejiltalk.org/catalonian-independence-and-the-european-union/

One last thing I forgot to mention. I have not seen much of a “left” in the secessionist movement. I see mostly a combination of ethnic nationalism (of a rather smothering variety) suspiciously supported by very liberal right wing and corrupt political elites (Puigdemont, Mas and their godfather Pujol) which in turn are supported by the Catalan oligarchy. Whatever “left” is there, seems to me of a very light semi-caviar variety. This word I tend to avoid as it has been disfigured and deformed beyond recognition. In any case, all the hardcore old school communists from Spain that I read assiduously, have nothing but contempt for what appears to them to be a transparently fake movement. For example
https://twitter.com/_JeanPaulMarat/with_replies
vot tak on October 30, 2017 · at 7:34 pm EST/EDT

Well, it looks like Harry Potter made good his escape to Belgium, where he can regroup and plot his return to do battle with the fiendish franco, jr., who meanwhile orders the falangist forces to begin the round up Potter’s allies.
Macario el Viejo on October 30, 2017 · at 9:05 pm EST/EDT

A few more comments, just to clarify and underline some things.

Much of the section titled “Waiting for a bloodbath to give support?” keeps going on and on about the possible declaration of a state of emergency and what effect this potential state of emergency would have on the Spanish people’s tolerance for the government.

So all of that is speculation. And within that speculation, there is a further speculation that, if such a thing were to happen, the Spanish would have a lot less tolerance for it than the French. Because… well because the French have proven that they are able to put up with it rather meekly, and in fact they even support it.

I have no reason to believe that Spaniards are less tolerant than the French of unpopular government measures. In fact I have the opposite impression, and I base it on the fact that the French have been much more active in protecting their labor rights and much more likely to protest and go on strike against austerity measures than the Spanish. Perhaps the reason the French are supportive of a state of emergency is that they have been adequately terrified by a series of terrifying terror attacks in recent times, many of them probably false flags.

The Spaniards have not been subjected to this kind of thing since the Madrid bombings of 2004. So we will not know how they will react to an imposition of state of emergency. Maybe they won’t like it as much as the French. Maybe it won’t be imposed unless there is a need for it.

My great concern about this article is this part:

Will Madrid’s next massively stupid order be to kill some protesters? I doubt it will get that far, but I keep being proven wrong by Madrid….

The presence of the word “order” is truly perplexing. Why would Madrid “order” the killing of protestors? Why would a government do the exact worse possible thing it could do against its own interest? The answer: “because of massive stupidity” is not very convincing at all.
They made a mistake on the day of the referendum by attempting to prevent it. This was received with enormous joy by the separatists. It was exactly what they wanted. Perhaps they were counting on the notion that things would continue down that path. But they didn’t. Because the central government quickly understood the big mistake it made and did not repeat any such performance. Ah, but next thing you know they may suffer a massive attack of stupidity and actually “order” some killings of protestors.

But protester deaths would get the left (not fake left) on board, and that is a game-changer. It would certainly galvanize the left into the action, as well as the silent majority and the undecideds.

So deaths would be a “game-changer” because they would get the left on board and galvanize it into action. Especially if such deaths are the result of a “massively stupid order to kill some protesters”

Well I don’t know if I should conclude that those things would be good or bad. It is not quite clear.

I am not hoping for deaths to achieve political goals! What I am saying is: we cannot wait to extend our support – not due to our support of Catalonian independence, but due to our opposition to authoritarianism (in whose wake capitalism always follows).

So, since the killings might not be forthcoming after all, because the “massively stupid order” might never be given, or because the potential state of emergency might never even materialize, we must not wait for these things to happen. We must support the Catalan independence movement (even if we don’t support Catalan independence) because of this latent authoritarianism which always brings capitalism in tow.

This is truly astonishing. I am amazed.

It operates on the surreal principle that whenever a local parliament and government decide to unilaterally enact legislation for their own secession, and then attempt to unilaterally carry out said secession, in blatant nose-thumbing of their own Constitution, the central parliament, government and justice systems are expected to just watch passively and let it all happen, lest they be accused of “authoritarianism”. I insist this sounds like a joke to me and the overwhelming majority of the countries on the planet would try to prevent it and would be in their right to do so.

This is a memorable article. A keeper for future reference.
Rob on October 31, 2017 · at 8:15 am EST/EDT

First of all, I want to thank mr. Mazaheri for a rich and insightful article.

It is repeatedly shed in a ‘leftist’ light and its counterparts. I wonder.
This has nothing to do with my own perceptions, I’m more of the traditional kind, but I’m open for suggestions and at least facts and arguments are presented, and I appreciate that.

Let me present a citation:

“It is gone, that sensibility of principle, that chastity of honour, which felt a stain like a wound . . . The age of chivalry is gone. That of sophisters, economists and calculators, has succeeded; and the glory of Europe is extinguished for ever”.

These are the words of Edmund Burke, an Irishman, a great orator at the British House of Commons, in 1790, reacting at the French revolution.
He was haunted in the then just premature press for this words (yes, even then).

‘Revolutions’ are presented as spontaneous acts, but in reality they are too often directed, from a distance by forces that strive for global domination, destroying original nations, religion and traditions, and enslaving anyone outside them. ‘Lend to any nation, but borrow from no one’ is written in their Law.

Politics are just a theatre. To citate George Carlin: ‘Politics are just to give you the impression that you have a choice. You don’t. You don’t have a choice’.

Of this Catalonian independence trial, I still have a theatre feeling. The reactions of the Spanish government are at least non-deescalating, as to give a signal of ‘listen to the central force, or else’. Could it be that this is just a try-out, with both parties on a string?

Then France. Yes, there is a permanent military stand-off (with about half of the French military operational in their own country), and the French seem to accept that.
There have been a number of terrorist attacks in France, Bataclan is just one of them (remember the ploughing down of people in Nice with a truck? Charlie Hebdo? Or the attempt to suicide-bomb the audience at a football game? They tried that in Germany as well).

I read in the comments about ‘false flag’. I don’t know for sure, but I’d would invite anyone to live for a month or so in the city districts of Molenbeek (Brussels) or Marxloh (Duisburg). Experience for yourself the embedded ‘love and passion’ towards ‘infidels’.

And this has nothing to do with politics. Outright civil wars are looming, and they might be engineered in advance.

Cheers, Rob
Miquel Sirvent on October 31, 2017 · at 8:15 am EST/EDT

I agree with Anonymous.
El Pais has been for quite a while now a Spanish government mouthpiece and definitely not a source to be trusted.
Plus surveys are always suspect anyway. Officially and independently monitored referendums/elections are the way to count numbers.
It’s a very well known fact among most Catalans that the independentists are a majority.
Macario el Viejo on October 31, 2017 · at 7:08 pm EST/EDT

A quote attributed to the Russian poet Alexandre Pushkin goes more or less like this: “If you are bored and you feel like listening to some rich nonsense to amuse yourself, just ask a foreigner what he thinks about Russia.”

Judging by Julian Assange’s unrestrained braying about Spain, it was pretty obvious to me he must have been hired and was being paid for his services. But I had no idea Yoko Ono (!) was in the payroll too.
https://www.esdiario.com/596855660/Encuentran-la-factura-que-la-Generalitat-pago-a-Assange-por-mentir-sobre-Espana.html
- jose castaño on November 01, 2017 · at 4:54 am EST/EDT
  
  Good morning,
  
  The director of el Pais: Luis Cebrián: his father was the director of Diario Arriba, the oficial Franco newspaper. They both created el Pais during the so called ¨Transition¨.
  
  Catalunya voted no to the NATO in the Felipe Gonzalez referendum, and will say no again as the 60-70% is clearly left oriented.
  
  80% of people in Catalunya is divided in which form can or will be the relation with Spain: or total independence or a Federation into a Republic of the Iberian Peoples. Percent is more or less equal for this two options, 50-50.
  
  Only 20% are for the actual Status Quo, so, be part of Spain as until now. Which are the PP and Ciudadanos and the direction of PSC (the Catalan branch of the PSOE) because their voters and militants no as proved by the resignation of more than 50 elected Majors of the PSC in Catalunya and the protest letters of hundreds to the oficial support of the party to the 155 article….
  
  Do you know why Spain is the only country without a ultraright party…???? Because they are included in the PP and Ciudadanos party.
  You only have to see in their demonstrations against the Independence of Catalunya, by the way, the only where violence had shown: they attaked the Barcelona Televisió BTV and Catalunya Radio offices, fights in P.Catalunya and P.S.Jaume (one taxi driver blessed) even attak to the Mossos (Catalan Police) shouting : If Franco were here…., etc,etc…
  
  Why so many people, that does not know nothing about the history of this country is saying this amount of nonsensic sentences…. sometimes it makes me remember this kind of TV program where ¨experts¨ of nothing with the mouth full of words……..
  Soros…???? Maidan…..????…… come on..!!!
  
  Do you remember Baltasar Garzon…??? the lawyer that ordered the detention of A. Pinochet while he was in London…. Yes, he also was the one who started with the biggest case of Corruption within the PP party… and the crimes of the USA in Irak war (for the killing of some spanish journalist, etc..) and the Memoria Histórica Law: all this Franco Criminals that still around and the thousands of people still in massgraves in the roadsides of this country….
  What happens to him…???
  
  Yes, almost even go to jail for try to do all this….. and must resigne (by the way now he is one of the lawyers of Mr. J.Assange) as a tipical demonstration of what and how rules the so called LAW in Spain..
  
  Do you know that 25 laws aproved in the Catalan Parliament has been suspended by Madrid in the last years…??? which laws…???: The cost of electiricty, one of the more high in the world: ask M.Aznar who is a chairman of Fecsa-Endesa……, The help to the familys that can not afford the payment of basic things like, gas, etc…., The help to the people that can not pay the rent or Hypotec of their house, etc, etc…. a lot of social legislation ¨imposed¨ by the leftist partys (ERC and CUP) to the minority PDeCAT in the Catalan goverment with the support of the other lefttis party CSQP and Podem, and now En Comu, the party of the Ocupy the Streets, from which Ada Colau the Major of the city of Barcelona.
  
  So here you have now the 80% of votes and people: Clearly Left oriented.
  
  Take a look in which is the support of the other 3 party: PP,PSC and Ciutadans.
  
  By the way, in 2005 being president of Catalunya Pascual MAragall in a lefty coallition (the PSC of that time… ERC and EU els Verds) presented a proposition to change the Estatuto de Autonomia of Catalunya, to equal in some chapters, for instance to the Andalucia or Basque ones…. it was a proved by the Majority of the Catalan Parliament except only by the PP, then sent to Madrid Approved in Las Cortes, the Spanish Parliament, so in the way back in referendum in Catalunya Approved too….. then… the Constitutional Tribunal Declared unconstitutional…..
  
  18 times after this it’s being try to resolve this politicaly, at the same time that the corrupt PP party (with it’s control of Senado,Goverment and Tribunal Constitucional and Superior de Justicia, where the lawyers Are Designed by the politic power : that’s the independence of the justice in Spain) attaks on the Catalan laws, including into the school system, or public works like in the railways, etc….
  
  And that’s really why the exponential growing and developing of Catalan Nacionalism, who was much more minor at that time…
  
  Always it’s said here that Rajoy is the biggest promoter of the growing of Catalanism….!!!
  
  By the way: this actual coallition in the Generalitat (PDeCAT, ERC, CUP..) on his electoral program, presented and aproved in the Spanish register for the 27S elections, has included the idea that It Will Be Approved the independence of Catalunya by the end of the legislature. And nobody tells nothing then ..??? and after…???.
  So, probably is the only party who really acomplie with it’s electoral program…..!!!
  
  And now the question: Rajoy convoqued elections for the 21st December: will he accept the result of this elections if (it’s presumed they will) the proindependence clearly win again..???
  
  As finally, it’s been the ¨truck¨to avoid a war, a civil war…..
  
  You may know that It’s Not Been Proclaimed the Republica in Catalunya, only the Propostion to do it: take a look on the filming of the vote in the Parliament: what they voted and what not, when a member of goverment ask the President (C.Forcadell) to vote secretly and indicate what it’s gonna be voted to be read by her…..and then voted…..
  
  But of course you need to watch that and understand what they are talking and what is happening, not only read the heads of the newspapers or tv programs, and, of course, stop to read or hear all this people who does not have any idea but the mouth full of words……
  
  So, Will they Accept the result of the elections of the 21st December…????
  that’s the point.
  A real chess game is on the table.
  
  Just to finish: it’s the classic fight in between left and right, but, of course, like always… the left has many different points of view, and details…. the right has only one clear view.
  But nothing, nothing is black and white….!!!
  
  stay well
  
  (Words in all caps corrected.They violate the blog rules,MOD)
  - Miquel Sirvent on November 02, 2017 · at 3:59 am EST/EDT
    
    jose castaño Thankyou José. You’ve a lot of important points and context.
    There is a lot of anti-Catalan misinformation in the comments here.
  - rojos y separatistas son la ruina de España ( Franco ) on November 02, 2017 · at 4:42 am EST/EDT
    
    Franco said that the ruin of Spain were reds and separatists , it is still valid .
    
    Obtuse and supremacists separaratists , and obtuse and antipatriotic reds .
    
    Do you remember how difficult is for spanish socialists to say the word Spain , preferring the expression ” this country ” as if the word Spain was a foul word ? , it shows the deficit of patriotism of the reds ( and their genuflexion to the angloamerican empire )
Anonymous on November 01, 2017 · at 7:41 am EST/EDT

There is no iron law of democracy allowing the right to unilaterally vote to leave a nation state

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/alina-mungiu-pippidi/why-catalonia-does-not-deserve-to-be-independent

Why Catalonia does not deserve to be independent
Alina Mungiu-Pippidi 31 October 2017

A few years ago, when a major political science conference was held in Spain, I rented a country house ……..

full copy of the posted article removed … mod
- Miquel Sirvent on November 02, 2017 · at 4:16 am EST/EDT
  
  Anonymous: the article you link to is very bad. It is thoroughly torn to shreds in it’s comments forum below it. I suspect the organization Open Democracy is also dodgy.
Palafox on November 01, 2017 · at 11:07 am EST/EDT

In Tarragona there are no more independentist flags in the windows . Catalans seem to be happy to get rid of their government of traitors .

Do you still think , Ramin , that the coup d`etat catalan is a ” leftist cause ” ? . I think that more than a leftist cause is a strange oligarco-anarco-psychiatrico cause ……
- Andries Termote on November 01, 2017 · at 3:01 pm EST/EDT
  
  Congratulations! For once in your life you are on the same side of history as George Soros and his fellow globalists! Puigdemont and consorts dream of a European Hongkong for the globalists and a hub for Israel. Moreover autonomous or even fully independent regions fit in well, it is the plan B of the EU. It makes excellent “Divide and rule”. EU pundits such as the Belgian “expert” Vanlangenhove pontificate about it already 35 years. He has nice maps of a regionalised Europe on the web. Multiple level governance they call it. The “autonomous” regions will be able to decide about the colour of their garbage bags etc. but all the important things (budgetting and spending norms, pension age, defense, immigration norms..) will be decided by not democratically accountable higher levels. The only country that will benefit from this regionalisation or fragmentation is the Federal Republic of Germany, which is already the most powerful country in the EU. There the federal regional structure works because it is based on historical antecedents (the mediëval kingdoms of the “Holy Roman Empire” such as Bavaria, Thuringia etc).
Anonymous on November 01, 2017 · at 3:05 pm EST/EDT

The New York Times, the same relentless Zionist rag that whitewashed Israel’s mass murder operation in Gaza, and kept assuring everyone that Iraq had WMDs, and that Gaddafi was murdering Libyans, and Assad was gassing Syrians… has now offered its soapbox to spread the usual collection of victimism propaganda by Catalan ex-vicepresident Junqueras.
jr on November 02, 2017 · at 2:29 am EST/EDT

The people of Catalonia want to decide their political future using traditional democratic methods. Eg voting. The Spanish state wants to stop this happening by using its traditional non-democratic methods. Eg police repression and brutality, flaunting the Spanish constiturion and Spanish law .
Miquel Sirvent on November 02, 2017 · at 3:01 am EST/EDT

By the way, thankyou to the author and also to Carnyx for your patience with the misinformation posted in the comments here.
Macario el Viejo on November 02, 2017 · at 9:11 am EST/EDT

Catalan Pep Puertas writes from Donetsk about Puigdemont possibly going on a tour “spreading Catalan psychodrama around all the European continent”

https://www.facebook.com/gonzoblogger2/posts/469577993436603
Is Puigdemont the most dangerous secret weapon of Vladimir Putin? The “Catalan president in exile” Carles Puigdemont is provoking a huge crisis in Belgium according to the local newspapers. The weak government of Charles Michel, sustained by a coalition of 3 parties, including right-wing nationalists from Flanders, may collapse. Puigdemont (that in Russian language sounds like “putsch-demon”, or “the devil of the coups”) is preparing a tour. It looks that he may visit Moscow and Kosovo spreading Catalan psychodrama around all the European continent.
Macario el Viejo on November 02, 2017 · at 2:44 pm EST/EDT

Miquel Sirvent on November 02, 2017 • at 4:16 am UTC
Anonymous: the article you link to is very bad. It is thoroughly torn to shreds in it’s comments forum below it. I suspect the organization Open Democracy is also dodgy.
——————————————-

No, the main arguments of that article are very solid and not easy at all to dismiss, and that is probably why the great outrage by the army of sockpuppets on its comment section. In any case, the arguments have not been “torn to threads” at all. They are based on factual information easy to verify.

These arguments are, in the first place that the Catalan case rests mostly on the separate history and identity of the Catalans, which supposedly entitles them to a separate path from the rest of the state where they have been for centuries. But in fact there is nothing unique about this. Most other current European states, are comprised of different regions with different or distinct ethnical, cultural, historic and linguistic identities, that came to be inside the same state through many different ways. The notion that ethnicity by itself (however you may define it) provides sufficient grounds to grant an ethnic group a separate state “à la carte” on demand, does not derive from any known principles of international law or any law at all. Besides, if you stick to the ethnic argument, a quick glance at the most common family names in Catalonia does not suggest that Catalan “ethnicity” reigns supreme in Catalonia. In any case, if the ethnic argument for a separate state is followed to its logical conclusion, this idea would mean that the number of independent states would have to increase from the current 193 (as represented by the UN General Assembly) to perhaps several thousand. One of the possible advantages of such an arrangement would be that in highly embarrassing votes such as the many resolutions condemning Israel, or the vote that took place a couple of days ago regarding the condemnation of the economic embargo against Cuba, the US and Israel would not feel so all alone, since it is to be expected that a few state-lets might easily be buttered into joining them just by giving their officials some spare change. But beyond that, it would be a kind of complicated world. A world with over one thousand independent states means over a million embassies, over a million ambassadors, countless millions of diplomatic personnel, millions of translators for the various tasks, and so on.

There is the obvious exceptional case when special circumstances having to do with blatant and hard oppression by the central government might justify secession, as discussed by the article. The problem for Catalonia in this respect is that no matter how it goes around playing its plaintive violin, it does not sound convincingly oppressed. Far from me to suggest that the Spanish state is anywhere near angelic, especially with respect with the increasing number of dispossessed among its population. It is just like the rest of the UE: servants of Big Capital. But to suggest that it “oppresses” Catalonians, or that Catalonia is in any possible sense in a colonial relation toward Madrid, is just plainly ridiculous.

As the author accurately points out: Some EU states have been more respectful of the traditional, organically developed institutions of such regions (as in Germany [or in Spain, she might add]), others less (as in Italy), but nobody was unwise enough to enshrine an ethnic character into EU regions, grounded in a feudal order predating the modern idea of the nation.

That aspect of the discussion can be summed with this sentence:
“The whole set of arguments of the Catalan nationalists for their independence could apply nearly everywhere else in Europe”

The argument of “threat to survival” is probably the most preposterous. To quote:

[the Catalans] have an advanced autonomous rule in a country ranked by OECD in the top ten in the world where fiscal decentralization (direct collection of taxes by the sub-national units) is concerned. Not only are their general human rights not infringed upon in democratic Spain, which also ranks among the most democratic countries in the world by Freedom House or Human Watch standards, but their linguistic policy had been, on the contrary, one of exclusion, not inclusion.

What the author means by “exclusion, not inclusion” in the last sentence, is that in Catalonia there exists a very easy-to-demonstrate linguistic discrimination, but in the exact opposite sense as the one claimed by professional wailers like Puigdemont.

In Catalonia students are taught only in Catalan in their first years of schooling, English is more promoted than Spanish as a foreign language (although the majority of Catalans have long indicated that Spanish was the number one mother tongue, before this statistical item was dropped). The obligatory use of Catalan as the sole medium of instruction for all [public] school subjects has been championed by Catalan nationalists over the past decades with little contestation, although in no other region of Europe has a group which does not have the linguistic majority managed to promote a monolingual model[2]

Now the Catalan independentists are visibly trying to internationalize this rather artificial “conflict” by asking for international mediation. Their hope that the central government might conveniently keep engaging in actions such as the October 1st referendum, has not materialized. One thing they need to be careful in this “mediation” request is not ending up with more than they bargained for. Because if an international human rights committee were to be brought in to impartially assess the claims of “oppression” and “discrimination,” they could very well conclude that the Catalan government and its institutions have been engaging in a deliberate program of linguistic discrimination against its (majority) Spanish language speakers. As of 2013, Spanish was the most spoken language in Catalonia, surpassing Catalan both in the number of “habitual speakers” and in the number of speakers who have it as a “initial” (or maternal) language, as well as the number of speakers for whom it is the language with which they identify. These figures come from the Catalan government itself
http://www.idescat.cat/cat/idescat/publicacions/cataleg/pdfdocs/eulp2013.pdf

As one can see in Tables 1.1.1, 1.1.2, 1.1.3, 1.2.1, 1.2.2, 1.2,3 etc. in the link above.

Because, as the author points out “in no other region of Europe has a group which does not have the linguistic majority managed to promote a monolingual model” [in school]
Quite right, because when it comes to language of instruction, Catalan is not only promoted, it is actually the only language of instruction that is offered in public schools.

Maybe it is not true that they are the “only region” where this kind of thing happens. If you for a moment consider the Ukraine as somewhat European (as they keep trying to claim) then this is exactly the model you have there at present (as I understand it)

Those are the main points. The economic oppression canard is no less a canard than all the other stuff. The main beauty of the separation plan, from the point of view of the Catalan elites, is that it would be great if the region could walk just walk away without paying its share of Spain’s debt by percentage of population. Obviously the international money lenders that hold the Spanish debt are not going to accept a transfer of these obligations to a new runaway state ran by delirious ethnic supremacists. Good luck Madrid trying to collect. No wonder they are not ready to let them go just like that.

Well explained in this paragraph:
What if people in Baden-Wurttemberg, a region which always comes out on top of Europe’s net donor regions, claimed that from tomorrow onwards they wanted to keep all their income in Baden-Wurttemberg rather than redistributing it to poorer EU regions, and that otherwise they would threaten secession? And yet this region does not owe the debt that Catalonia does – all the great separation plans rest on the assumption that secession is good for business if there are no more taxes and the 72 billion Euros in debt (16.34 percent of Spain’s) are no longer paid to Spain. Catalonia has 16% of Spain’s population and its grievance is that it pays almost 20% to the budget in taxes. But that is how Europe works – more urban areas, and capitals in particular redistribute to more rural ones and those whose economies do well help those who experience downturns, as economic fortunes are not everlasting. Economic solidarity within nations and the Union is a guarantee for bad times – Europe is full of cities which once had mighty economic power on the European scene and are today just charming places to visit for the amateurs of UNESCO heritage sites. Surely it would be good business for all of us to leave our debts unpaid and leave with all the income when we are riding high?

Well it certainly would be good business, yes. And if you can claim grave oppression while doing it, why not?

Here is Manuel Valls, Prime Minister of France (2014-2016)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPgW1MEWRjc
Spain is very different from France. It consists of big regions that are powerful and possess strong identities. Catalonia has a level of autonomy unimaginable in France.

Yes, totally unimaginable in France and probably in other states within Europe, except Spain.
- jose castaño on November 02, 2017 · at 4:57 pm EST/EDT
  
  Right to decide.
  Every human being, every people has the right to decide.
  We can not defend another world but a free world.
  What is a law without justice.
  What is a state that wounded 844 persons, eldery, youngs, men and women and put on prison the legitimate elected people.
  Or the leaders of two civil and peacefull organizations.
  While in the streets are in free all this ultra shouting Viva Franco and beating peacefully people.
  What is a state that still have foundings for the oficial web and asociation Francisco Franco: do you imagine this in Germany with the oficial web of Adolf Hitler payed with public money..???
  Who has the right to decide on the present and future of millions..???
  Exactly: this millions of people, nobody else.
  As we defend that must be Syrian people who decides for himself, or Iraki people, or Venezuelan,
  like the people of Crimea decided: in a referendum..where nobody out of the country can decide for them.
  This you like..?? or not..??? no matter: they,we, are the only who can decide what our live, our future, will.
  Right to decide.
  Point.
  - Macario el Viejo on November 02, 2017 · at 9:49 pm EST/EDT
    
    What on earth do you mean by “people have the right to choose” ? The sentence is meaningless if you don’t specify what exactly this right applies to. I do think I have the right to choose my own cheese (if the cheese that I want is available and I can afford it). Otherwise my “right” fizzles out quickly.
    
    If you mean that people have the right to choose the borders of the state to which their collective belong to, that is a very different question. This “right” is not written anywhere as far as I know. If it were, then for example the people of the Donbass may have appealed to this universal right while they were (and continue to be) daily bombarded by the Kiev government and their colonial masters. And perhaps they did appeal, but no one listened to them. And I remind you that the Europe of the Values not only doesn’t mind too much what Kiev does to those people, it not only doesn’t bother talking about it, but actually it has helped the Kiev government continue this practice.That is why the people in the Donbass don’t spend much energy appealing to any such imaginary rights. Because they know there arent any. At least not for them. The only thing they can do is defend themselves.
    
    The notion that a prosperous region that no one is attackking or oppressing as such, has the unilateral right to secede just because half of its people, the wealthiest part, feel like it, or because they think they might be richer if they secede, is just not worthy of any serious consideration. It is a snowflake idea which, if taken seriously, might in fact lead to grave problems. Which is why so far nobody is taking it seriously.
    
    Out of those 844 “wounded persons” that you mention, only two remained in the hospital the following afternoon, making this the most spectacular collective recovery of wounded people I am aware of. It was nontheless unfortunate, and totally unnecessary, that police intervened in that manner. But compared with local Catalan police charges during demonstrations and general strikes in Barcelona in recent years, it was extremely mild and polite.
    
    Regarding those two “leaders of two civil and peaceful organizations” who have been put in prison, here is a thread explaining why they have been jailed. Not because of their ideas but for actively directing and coordinating a siege by thousands of people against the police, among other rather naughy things they did which, in places like the USA, that bastion of democracy and freedom, would no doubt have gotten them in a lot more serious trouble. Here is that thread https://twitter.com/PepeKollins/status/920207092048424960
- Miquel Sirvent on November 02, 2017 · at 5:21 pm EST/EDT
  
  Not true. You provide nothing but misinformation. The Catalan independence movement is not ethnically based. It’s got nothing to do with race. It ís about inclusiveness. Catalans want to have an inclusive, peaceful and democratic society.
  
  Yet it is informed by the history of that part of the world. The history of conflict with Spain. This is important context for anyone studying the topic.
  
  On language: Catalans want to ensure their language does not die out in the near future. It’s our language and culture, after all and therefore our responsibility to protect its immense value as part of world heritage. Our language has a long literary history and we value this. Over the last ten years the Spanish government has imposed diktats on how many hours/week Spanish (Castilian) should be used. This has again threatened the Catalan language. Catalan schools use three languages as vehicular: Catalan, Spanish and English. In about three equal parts. Catalonia has a good education system and shouldn’t be imposed upon from Madrid, with its cultural ‘racism’ trying always to squeeze out the Catalan language.
  - Macario el Viejo on November 02, 2017 · at 8:48 pm EST/EDT
    
    Well, other than making empty statements about my “misinformation” (I’ve noticed that every single piece of data you are provided with, you reject as either false or issuing from a propaganda site), you keep on with your practice of avoiding any substantiated replies to what you are being presented with. I appreciate the fact that you have not rejected as false the statistics about language usage in Catalonia. It would have been rather unseemly if you had done so, given that they come from the Catalan government.
    
    You can fool a lot of people from outside Spain, but it is much harder to fool people from your country who have a more detailed idea of what is going on with your act.
    
    Your statement that Catalan, English and Spanish share vehicular status in education is an outright lie, and I don’t use this word very often or without reason. The Spanish courts have repeatedly told the Catalan government that, given that Spanish is a co-official language in Catalonia, and given that Spanish is the main language of the majority of speakers in Catalonia, the Catalan government has the obligation to provide education in Spanish for those who request it. It is by no means an unreasonable ruling. The Catalan government has consistently thumbed its nose at these rulings. That’s why the author of the article we are discussing https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/alina-mungiu-pippidi/why-catalonia-does-not-deserve-to-be-independent writes, quite accurately, that no other region of Europe has a group which does not have the linguistic majority managed to promote a monolingual model. Which is exactly what you have done. Two or three years ago, the Supreme Court fixed at 25% the minimum portion of teaching in Spanish. Again, this was never complied with. You can see literally thousands of articles attesting to these matters and complaints all over the place by doing a simple search like “Cataluña sentencia horas castellano”: https://www.google.com/search?lr=&hl=en&as_qdr=all&q=Catalu%C3%B1a+sentencia+horas+castellano&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjju-eEgKHXAhUR84MKHSRIBx0QgwMIJg&biw=1093&bih=462
    
    So your contention that Spanish is given equal time as Catalan as a vehicular language of instruction in Catalonia is, I repeat, an outright fiction. And everybody in Spain, and especially in Catalonia, knows it. Please stop making things up.
    
    And your contention that Catalan in Spanish Catalonia is in any kind of danger is also bogus. I say Spanish Catalonia because of course things are quite different in French Catalonia, and have been for a long time.
    
    Catalonia was under the French for a short while in the 1640s. The French of course are centralizing control freaks compared to the Spanish, that’s how they ended up with a very centralized state that pretty much exterminated all the other languages in their territory, and there were plenty of languages there. So the short experiment of being under the French crown did not turn out very well for Catalonis. So the part of Catalonia south of the Pyrenees was taken back from the French by Spain in 1652.
    
    This was actually very fortunate for the Catalan language and culture. After 1652, the treaty of the Pyrenees between France and Spain established that the Catalan territory north of the Pyrenees would remain under the French Crown. The Catalan language in that part of Catalonia has not enjoyed any official status at all since the year 1700, when Louis XIV issued an edict forbidding its usage for official purposes, during which he called it “repugnant” to boot.
    
    Ah, but you complain about current Madrid “diktats” when the Spanish Supreme Court tells you that you cannot just ignore the majority who speak Spanish in Catalonia, and continue to *impose* education only in Catalan. Which is exactly what you do.
    
    And of course Catalan heroes like deputy Lluis Llach talk with a straight face about “cultural genocide” under Spain, and actually speak of France as a fertile land for the flourishing of all freedoms. Go figure.
    
    I will not let you get away with your blatantly misleading fictions. Also, when and if I have time I intend to use your pen name Miquel Sirvent or Servent (which of course has not escaped my attention) and its relation with such luminous institutions as your Institut Nova Historia, created in 2007 for the exclusive purpose of, literally, manufacturing a Catalan “new” history out of thin air, employing even coarser methods than the ones you employ in your empty-handed interventions here. Everything in due time, sir.
    - jose castaño on November 03, 2017 · at 2:24 pm EST/EDT
      
      Concerning the school,
      I have 2 daughters and 1 boy.
      They study in the 3 languages: Catalan, Castellano and English.
      They speak,read and writte perfectly all this languages (well the english is coming… :)
      There’s no prohibition of the Castellano.
      Au contraire….
      But the problem comes with 3-4 cases ,trust me, not more, concrete people, who wants that their children study ¨only¨ in Castellano..not Catalan at all.
      .ah… but they live in Barcelona…!!!
      so the problem is just the oposite…!!
      Well I’m the president of the ampa (asociation of fathers and mothers) in the school..
      And believe me, I don’t lie when I tell you this.
      We are a bilingual society, and very proud to be…!!
      There’s an interesting documentary of Jordi Evole on this subject (probably the best journalism program on spanish TV in La Sexta TV, you can find it on internet… and nobody will say he is a fan of the independentism, he does not want it, but… he’s a journalist, a real one)
      Watch it and then judge by yourself.
      By the way I recomend to watch all his programs: a piece of gold in between so much mediocrity…
      
      Some details apart,
      Take a look on the Coronel Cassad or better Slavyangrad blog, you can find the conections of Pravy Sektor and the Ukronazi with the actual goverment of Spain (PP)
      
      Ah, Spain is the theird arms provider to the Saudi Kingdom (who’s monarchy is very friend of the Spanish Borbon ones….) Spanish firms are building the Speed train to La Meca in the Arabia Saudi…
      
      Oh, their (spanish goverment) attitude with Venezuela… or the infamous trio (well it was a quartet as Durao Barroso was also there) Bush, Blair, Aznar…
      
      etc, etc…. just to know of who are we talking about…..
      
      Catalans who wants the independence are not Bourguais or mighty people, maybe some there are, but the rich, the real ones are the ones who are moving their business out of here during this happenings: La Caixa, Codorniu, etc, etc… this are the wealthy people.
      
      As told before there’s a half (40% of population) who wants independence, and another 40% that wants a Republica of the Iberian Peoples, so not the independence but another relation with the state, a change of the system imposed by Franco power and people ,
      A federation of the Basque,Catalans, Galegos….. just as it was during the Second Republic finished by the Fascism.
      I’m one of this.
      
      And Fascism is what we have in Spain, a modern one if you want, but they are.
      
      We have the right to ask for the restitution of the legality that was heavily broke by the military.
      That’s the point.
      
      There’s no ethnic parameters as you sugest, look for instance my name: My father was from Extremadura, my mother Catalan. Many,many of us are like that, mixed and: we love spain and the spanish people…as spanish love us … there’s no problem with that.. (of course there’s always in both ¨sides¨some …..how to call them…… I will say stupids)
      
      we are fighting against the ¨old regime¨ , like the people in Murcia are doing, like the people in Galicia is doing or the Valencia people, against the impune attaks of the ultraright… but all this is not in the covers of the media….
      
      Also is not the judiciary processus in which they are involved, rotten to the core… only Catalunya, Catalunya.. tu put an smoke courtain on the facts that are now happening in all spain.
      
      They are trying to survive, this Arenas, this Santamaria, this fascists and this corrupt monarchy….imposed in the power by the grace of God and the army of Franco
      
      and Europe… yeah… another europe is posible
      a europe of the peoples…
      something very important for the world fight in which we are all involved…
      don’t you think..??
      yes, we can
      - jose castaño on November 05, 2017 · at 9:24 am EST/EDT
        
        Just see a video from the Asotiation of ex´volunters of ATO in Ukraina who’s director is Vitaly Chornly and his second Alex Seredivk, both ex – Azov.
        They offer their ¨help¨to finish wit the the ¨separ¨catalan with a brigade of 300 people ready to come whenever it’s need…
        It starts with Viva Franco, Viva Cristo Rey .
        Not anymore in youtube you can find it through Facebook.
        
        jose castaño on November 05, 2017 · at 2:21 pm EST/EDT
        
        You can find some fotos and an interesting article about that here:
        
        http://www.publico.es/politica/unidad-espana-suma-inquietantes-aliados-internacionales.html
        
        interesting the first foto taked in Ukraina : España Una Grande y Libre : that was the Franco slogan…
        
        For all of you: Publico is a digital newspaper, one of the very few with real journalists that you can follow in Spain , there is a Catalan version too…!!!
        
        at this moments thousands marching in Madrid asking for the free of the politic prisoners and the restauration of the Republic (but not also in Catalunya, but for Spain…)
        
        that’s it…!!!