by Mansoureh Tadjik for The Saker Blog
Specific target audience for this essay are those who believe themselves to be believers in God. This focused aiming is not meant to be rudely dismissive of the otherwise as readers. It does mean to exclude the latter, however, based on a rational, reasoned, and realistic sieving so that it could precisely target the former with a candid censure. In the interest of transparency, the assumptions and reasons for this specific targeting and differential sieving are clarified with the help of a few familiar and ordinary examples.
The rationale for the exclusion of the otherwise is based on two specific frameworks. The first framework is grounded in the principles of our current approaches and methods in scientific investigations, how they are applied in some instances and misapplied and perverted in other instances in a manner that traps people in a virtual state of spiritual and mental impasse. The second framework is borrowed from specific verses of Quran. Quran is referenced here as an example of one of the scriptures guiding those who believe themselves to be believers in God. However, other scriptures, too, could be explored in parallel to obtain similar inferences. There is a high likelihood that the results would be nearly identical.
The first framework for primary sieving concerns approaches and methods in scientific investigations. Scientific investigations, in our current practices, are broadly based on a couple of most basic well-established approaches. Generally speaking, these approaches are designed to explore and to observe the world, in a systematic way, and to gain deeper understanding about the world, events and phenomena within it, and the relationships among its countless components. The methods are set, as well, to apply the knowledge gained in order to make sense of this world, to improve, correct, and reform how we think, speak, and do things about and in our individual and collective lives.
A critical component in these approaches is the assumption of what is called a state of null (mostly known as null hypothesis). Simply put, when we make an observation, we would assume a default position that nothing significant is happening: that is, “no new” event has occurred to be worthy of our attention; or that, “no relationship(s)” (be it association, correlation, causal link, etc.), qualitatively or quantitatively, exists between and among the entities, events, or measurements under our observation or investigation. Once we clearly state our null, we then move to systematically collect reliable and accurate data and evidence related to our hypothesis.
The analysis and overall assessment of the collected evidence lead us to conclude one of two things. Either our null hypothesis stands (is not rejected), or the probability for our null statement to be true is so significantly low that we must conclude, with high degree of certainty, that there is something going on (e.g., new event, association, correlation, causality, etc.). Therefore, there must be an alternative explanation for the patterns of change we observe in our measurements. Embedded in these approaches is another critical component, the law of probabilities. These probabilities (often expressed in statistical terms) are used to determine if and how much that which we observe could have happened by chance alone, or by some random non-purposeful event.
In the words of late physicist David Bohm, “A wrong question is one which already assumes the very thing that ought to be questioned.”[1] It is not the purpose of this essay to go off on a tangent and discuss how questionable our assumptions really are when we pose our main questions in the manner stated above. Neither is it the essay’s purpose to list the limitations, shortcomings, and the flaws underlying these approaches. Nor will the essay discuss how an active and genuine exploration to come up with better approaches is at a standstill. Those sorts of discussions should occur within the scientific community itself which has regrettably remained stagnant for more than two hundred years. Scientists positioned in universities and research institutes know quite well that research funding for exploring “assumptions that ought to be questioned” is nil. Depths of our thinking in this and related areas are directly linked to the amount of funding. Perhaps that might be one reason why most members of this community, nowadays, confuse science and scientific inquiry with application of science and technology and/or have given up arguing[2, 3] these fine points altogether. The only reason to summarily point out some of these issues here is to present an honest admission about the fragility of the glass houses in which stone-throwing scientists live and to advise the readers to take the approaches discussed here with a grain of salt given that we are using them as one our frameworks for discussion. In any case, real life ordinary examples might be helpful in explaining these approaches and methods for the less familiar.
In observational studies, for example during archeological diggings, when a piece of clay pottery in some depth underground is found, it could not have been there by chance alone, it is firmly asserted. The archeologists involved see too much of an organization and purposeful crafting in that little piece to immediately assume and claim the null. Their initial assumption is not that perhaps some accidental wind blew some raw material there by accident, then geological folds and core gravitational forces, over time, exerted random pressure from different directions to give millions of clay pieces that particular shape and texture, by chance alone. Then, through natural/geological selection, the fittest pieces survived to the next phase. The extreme heat radiating from molten lava within the earth’s inner core and layers randomly cooked those pieces. Some of the pieces survived the cooking and randomly advanced to the next stage. Upward and sideway thrusts toward cooler upper layers, some of the fittest pieces moved up and cooled down. Of those, through natural selection, one piece was preserved and waited to be discovered, by chance, and by that particular team of archeologists.
It is hardly assumed that the whole mechanism, could be explained by a series of accidents, random chances, fitness of the pieces, and natural/geological selection that made the pottery piece to take the shape, texture, and the quality that somehow looks like something an intelligent being like humans may have made. Now, if the archeology team finds 2, 5, 10, or 50 such pieces in different locations, they would be willing to put their professional lives on the line to claim that those pieces could not have come to those patterns of formations independently, in parallel, and by chance alone.
Elsewhere, in criminal investigations and forensic sciences, to give another example, a chip from a broken nail, a fiber, traces of a chemical compound, a strand of hair, remnants of some bodily fluids could not be where they are found/detected by chance alone, it is firmly assumed. Therefore, the investigators spend hours, days, months, or more and lots of other resources to look for an alternative explanation about whodunit and how the detected items got to the scene of crime. People are condemned, put behind bars, sent to gas chambers, and their possessions seized based on the outcome of these very methods of inquiry.
In experimental studies, too, similar assumptions of null and examination of patterns occur. Let us suppose there is a health institute, or a giant multi-national drug company, or a research entity of the department of offense of an arrogant power, for instance, that has embarked on developing and testing the efficacy as well as the side effects of a promising drug –promising in terms of its profitability for the company and the shareholders, or its deadliness as a chemical weapon, that is— for a study and ‘treatment’ of a costly and highly debilitating disease, Multiple Sclerosis (MS), let’s further suppose. If the experiments are to be carried out in North America and some Western European countries, the company/institute/department, in line with current usual practices, would conduct lab experiments on monkeys,[4] soldiers,[5] and prisoners[6] (who happen to be mostly people of color, by chance alone). If the tests are to be done on humans, then greedy and/or witless physicians and researchers from other countries, endowed with the title developing or third world, will be enticed and recruited through offers of gifts, paid trips to and fro scientific conferences plus an assortment of other tokens of appreciation, to carry out the experiments. Those trained local serfs, in turn, prescribe, apply, or test the drug on behalf of their patrons to/on their respective unsuspecting, often poor and powerless, local people.[7,8]
Conveniently, with a mafia-style help from the World Bank (WB), the International Monetary Fund (IMF), World Health Organization, and the like, the respective countries have rushed to digitize and upload into extremely safe and secure[9] Webistan every bit of their populations’ information from vital statistics to medical information, lab results, prescriptions, and more, all under the motto of progress and development. Everything about everyone, including those in test and control groups of the said experiment, is digitally packaged and virtually delivered. All expenses paid by the local people themselves. [It is a painful shame to be exploited, it is shameful pain though to personally finance one’s own exploitation.]
At this stage, the overlords of the drug experiment go back to their original null hypothesis; they run series of statistical analyses, compare groups and document patterns of change in specific indicators in both the test group (received the drug) and the control group (received some placebo). The conclusion they draw is based on the quality and quantity of the patterns of change they observe in signs, symptoms, and other indicators under the investigation. If they determine the observed changes could not have occurred by chance alone, then they conclude that they must have occurred due to the administration of that particular drug. Of course, it is highly likely that the quality and quantity of the drug’s reported efficacy would be directly proportional to and its reported side effects inversely proportional to its potential for financial profitability for the manufacturer or its deadliness in military applications. But we will not go into details of why and how. Our specific aim in this section was, and still is, to provide some simple, real life examples of scientific approaches for those less familiar.
This essay will become needlessly lengthier than it already is if more examples were to be listed. Fair-minded readers get the gist though. For others, the problem lies elsewhere. By now, there must be a “So what?” lingering in space. So this, these standard approaches and rules of scientific conduct come to a screeching halt when it comes to laws and patterns governing life, universe, and everything within. We see repeated patterns, laws of nature that hold true at subatomic all the way to macro intergalactic levels. Extremely complex events and phenomena governed by same precise rules and regulations are repeated exactly. Any single one of that which we observe could not have just happened by chance alone, let alone for billions of them to have occurred in series of repeated patterns governed by same laws expanding over times, places, and any other imaginable dimensions by chance.
Why, then, must we consider as a foregone conclusion an unreasonable supposition about the most critical, important, and enormous facts of our existence and the existence of the universe while, at the same time, we take costly care to avoid presupposing such absurdity about the most ordinary events of our daily and routine affairs? Why the double standard? This is the ultimate in scientific hypocrisy.
It must be justly acknowledged though there are some who exercise more humility and less arrogance in their contradictory stance. They concede that perhaps there is some universal interconnectedness, intelligent force, and super consciousness spiritual aspects to things. Some may even go a bit further and acknowledge that there is a Creator. A generous concession. But they disregard the possibility that the Creator might or should perhaps have some further say in how things run, regulated, and maintained, thereafter. Is that how things usually work in various aspects of our regular lives?
Currently, millions of products, devices, and machines are manufactured in our world. There are computers we use to type and read essays for/in the Saker blog; the coffee makers we use to brew our coffee; the cars we drive to and from places; the appliances we use in our kitchens; the tools we use in our workshops, companies, and schools; and countless other engineered physical, chemical, and biological products. They all come (or must come) with one important and essential document, the User’s Manual. In fact, there is a branch of scientific and technical writing that deals specifically with this business of writing user guides and manuals. These manuals, written by the makers, tell us exactly what power supplies to use, for example, for a product, whether it needs a DC or AC source, what type of fuel to put in, what standard operating procedures there are for optimal operation, what key cautionary and safety points to follow to minimize the risks and hazards, how to do routine maintenance, and so much more.
Now, if a semi-intelligent being like humans publishes all sorts of instructions for the operation of a small piece of machinery he creates and does not say to the user, “go and figure it out yourself,” and the users demand such documents, too, based on what sensible judgment do we deduce that an All-Knowing, All-Wise, All-Kind, and Just Creator of multi-complex, multi-layered universe(s) and billions of complex beings called humans that are made over times and places would leave all His creation, including us, without any instructions, guides, or cautionary warnings about how to conduct ourselves and how to manage our physical, social, economic, psychological, and mental relationships between, among, in relations to ourselves and the universe(s) that surround us? Does the empirical evidence on what we do/have done to ourselves and to the only habitat in which we can currently live, given our physical limitations, show that we are really capable of figuring things out based on our own wits alone?!
We turn to the second framework for our exclusion criteria, the one borrowed from the verses of Quran. An overall inference drawn from Quran regarding humans is that all human beings in their fitrat, or their core, essence, soul, crux of their existence, are Ilaahi, or Godly. That means, every single human being from the time his/her existence takes shape at conception is endowed with an innate knowledge of God and an intrinsic submission to Him. Willful active acknowledgement of God and sincere voluntary submission to him are considered Imaan, or belief. Mo’min is one who, out of his/her own free will acknowledges and submits to God and God’s commands and regulates his/her deeds accordingly on an ongoing basis. To articulate this in our regular language, innate knowledge and submission to God could be thought of as genes and willful acknowledgment and voluntary submission would be the phenotypic expression of those genes.
In fact, the word Kufr in Quran, which is translated into English as “disbelief in God,” means “to cover up.” A kafir, translated as an infidel or a disbeliever of God, literally means “he who covers up and hides,” in this case, the truth of his essential and innate knowledge about God and an ongoing willful non-submittal to God. Therefore, in this framework, the default factory setting for this intelligent, organic, earthly-heavenly machine we call humans is belief in God. Disbelief in God comes through practice, constant and costly cover ups as consequence of mismanagement of one’s kibr, or arrogance and egotism. It is very simple and straight forward.
وَ إِذْ أَخَذَ رَبُّكَ مِنْ بَنِي آدَمَ مِنْ ظُهُورِهِمْ ذُرِّيَّتَهُمْ وَ أَشْهَدَهُمْ عَلى أَنْفُسِهِمْ أَ لَسْتُ بِرَبِّكُمْ قالُوا بَلى شَهِدْنا (Quran, 7:172)
“Recall when your Lord took from the children of Adam – from their loins – their descendants and had them bear witness to themselves [when He] asked, ‘Am I not your Lord?’ They said, ‘Yes, we testify’.”
فَأَقِمْ وَجْهَكَ لِلدِّينِ حَنِيفًا ۚ فِطْرَتَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَيْهَا ۚ لَا تَبْدِيلَ لِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ (Quran, 30:30)
“Then direct your face toward the just and pure religion. This is the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created people. Nothing will change in the creation of Allah.”
Within this definitional framework, therefore, it appears those who believe themselves to be nonbelievers in God, more than with anyone else, must constantly struggle and grapple with their own innate ‘selves’ and ‘forces’ to regularly convince themselves of their disbelief. A true cognitive dissonance. Constant calling upon them and arguing with them yields very little results. They have ears but not the will to listen to or hear the truth, they have tongues but not the will to speak the truth, and they have eyes but not the will to observe and see the truth: <
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا سَوَاءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ أَأَنذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنذِرْهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ (Quran, 2:6)
“Indeed, those who practice kufr [disbelief and cover up], it will be the same for them whether you warn them or not; they insist on not believing.”
خَتَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ وَعَلَىٰ سَمْعِهِمْ ۖ وَعَلَىٰ أَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ ۖ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيم (Quran, 2:7)
“[As such] God put a seal on their hearts and their ears; and on their eyes, there is a cover [blocking of vision] and for them, the consequence/outcome is a great disaster/torment.”
وَمَثَلُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا كَمَثَلِ الَّذِي يَنْعِقُ بِمَا لاَ يَسْمَعُ إِلاَّ دُعَاءً وَنِدَاءً صُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لاَ يَعْقِلُونَ (Quran, 2:171)
“And the example of those who practice kufr (disbelief through regular cover ups) is that of someone whom is shout at but he has no understanding of what he hears except calls and cries. Deaf, dumb, and blind; they fail to employ reason.”
If God Almighty, the Creator, has left them to their own devices, who are we to become “a stepmother more compassionate than a mother”? Leaving them be and learn through their inner struggles is perhaps the most reasonable thing we could do. Unless, of course, they are actively blocking the believers from practicing their belief in God, in which case resistance would be the most reasonable response. As far as the premise of this essay is concerned though, it would be silly to try to target someone who actively denies God with a criticism that requires belief in God as its core assumption. Thus the exclusion.
Up to this point, the essay has worked on clearing the path for targeting those who believe themselves to be believers in God. These are people who actively and willfully acknowledge God as their Creator and submit to Him with regard to their thoughts, words, and deeds. This essay does not aim to single out any particular individuals, groups, or denominations like Shi’s Muslims, Sunni Muslims, any and all other groups in Islam, Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox Christians, Mormons, Orthodox Jews, Zoroastrians, Majus, and more. Anyone who believes himself/herself to be a believer in God is included as the target here.
If the adherents within any of these groups refer to primary, secondary, and tertiary principles of their, as well as the others’, belief systems and scriptures, they are very likely to observe patterns and a strong common threads in nearly ninety nine percent of those principles shared within and among all these denominations. There is a high likelihood that they would also find general categories of commands or edicts that forbid (make Haram, warn against doing) similar things (generally referred to as sins) as well as commands or edicts that mandate (order, make mandatory, Waajib) doing some other similar things. They might also find similarities in highly recommended (Mustahib) deeds (better to do but is not mandatory) as well as in cautionary advice to avoid (Makrooh) some deeds (better not to do but is not a sin if done).
More specifically, they would see commands that forbids, for example, harming, exploiting, and killing self and other innocent people as well as aiding and abetting in any such acts; or, predatory financial transactions that lead vulnerable people into ruins (like usury, hoarding of essential goods to create and/or exploit scarcity, etc.); or, predatory approaches in social interactions that destroy social standing, honor, and reputation of people (gossip, defamation, false allegation, slander, etc.); lying, cheating, and deception that damages human relations, family structure, and social interactions. They would see mandatory deeds, for example, like respect, kindness, and responsibility towards one’s mother and father, family, close kin, neighbors, those in need, the poor and dispossessed; some form of prayers, worship rituals, and fasting; hard work, etc. Although there might be some diversity and variation on the surface but the core and essence in all of them are the same. There are more examples but point is made.
If we were to conduct a systematic and comparative study and analysis of all these patterns, we would find the quality and quantity of commonalities that unite us as believers in God far exceed those which divide us. Yet, majority of us, trapped in our silos and fragmented sects, get duped into supporting programs and deeds that are clearly and unequivocally forbidden by God. We get duped to support plans that clearly ignore what are mandated by God. The ones who do the planning and impose it on the people of the world have zero real interest in what God says and wants from us. But we have gotten ourselves so tangled up in our divisions over that one percent difference that we have relinquished our responsibilities over the ninety nine percent shared values and commands to those who have no interest whatsoever in our or their own long-term salvation.
If a handful of lying, cheating, deceitful, corrupt, irresponsible, selfish, immoral thieves, non-believing thugs and organizations, bankers, and gamblers make decisions, control, and impose upon us wars, conflicts, chaos, contracts, transactions, and laws related to our financial, education, sexual, social, and life affairs that run counter to, and exactly opposite of, what our God, and our wisdom and reason, and our fitrat tell us, is it a surprise then?
Most readers of this blog are all too familiar with examples of how people of various belief systems (in the US, UK, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Occupied Palestine, and more) are deceived to support corrupt leaders in their ungodly misdeeds and aggressions in the name of a given religion. The solution, some suggest, is to do away with religion, that is, “to throw away the baby with the bathwater.” I see. Instead of demanding deep awareness, accountability, and authenticity in doing all the constructive things God tells us to do and avoiding all the destructive things that God warns us against, we should do away with the words of God altogether. Which genius came up with that solution?
To that end, I would like to say, shame on those of us who believe ourselves to be believers in God, yet, we continue our spiritual, mental, and intellectual lethargy and ineptitude that keep us victims of, and active participants in, deceitful plans to divide and destroy us because we do not know our religions and our shared values well enough. Double shame on us for our hypocrisy, saying we believe in something and behaving exactly opposite of that. From where I stand, religious hypocrisy of those who believe themselves to be believers in God is just as ugly as scientific hypocrisy of those who think themselves to be real scientists. Fortunately for us, this coin has another side: deep awareness of our religion, authenticity in following its edicts in our thoughts, words, and deeds are just as beautiful and praiseworthy as true scientific awareness and authenticity. They are two wings with which we could ascend. والسلام.
[1] Bohm D (1992). Thought as a System. Based on David Bohm’s Seminars, Current Edition Published in 1994
by Routledge, London; ISBN 0-203-26616-1; Available online at: https://epdf.pub/queue/thought-as-a-system.html
[2] Agassi J (1966). “The Confusion between Science and Technology in the Standard Philosophies of Science.” Technology and Culture, 7(3): 348-366.
[3] Agassi J (1975). “The Confusion between Science and Technology in the Standard Philosophies of Science.” In: Science in Flux. Boston Studies in the Philosophy of Science, Vol. 28. Springer, Dordrecht.
[4] Furlan R, Cuomo C, and Marino G (2009). “Animal Models of Multiple Sclerosis.” Methods in Molecular Biology, 549:157-73. doi: 10.1007/978-1-60327-931-4_11.
[5]Gross MA (2013). “Military Medical Ethics: A Review of the Literature and a Call to Arms.” Cambridge Quarterly of Healthcare Ethics, 22: 92–109. Cambridge University Press 2012; doi:10.1017/S0963180112000424
[6] Keramet R (2009). “Experimentation on Prisoners: Persistent Dilemmas in Rights and Regulations.” California Law Review, Vol. 97, pages 501-566.
[7] SOMO briefing paper on ethics in clinical trials #1 (Updated Feb. 2008). “Examples of unethical trials.” Available online at: https://www.wemos.nl/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/examples_of_unethical_trials_feb_2008.pdf
[8] Carr DM (2003). “Pfizer’s Epidemic: A Need for International Regulation of Human Experimentation in Developing Countries.” Case Western Reserve Journal of International Law, 35(1): 15-53. Available online at: https://scholarlycommons.law.case.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1417&context=jil
[9] Koczkdaj WW, Masiak J, Mazurek M, Strzalka D, Zabrodskii PF (2019). “Massive Health Record Breaches Evidenced by the Office for Civil Rights Data.” Iran Journal of Public Health, 48(2): 278-288.
Mr. Tadjik,
I really enjoyed this essay. With the 4th holy war against Muslims underway ( I think that its the 4th, and am relying on memory at the moment ) and the holocaust against Muslims that has resulted in the brutal and barbaric slaughter and related war deaths of illness and starvation of over 6,000,000 Muslims since the I980’s, as aglobal community, we should be demanding answers, how can this be taking place again?!
Nothing has resulted in the disbelief in God more than the “holy wars”, ( no war is holy ). It is therefore in the interests of the Christian, Judaic, Hindu, Budist communities to immediately speak out against these wars. You have the pulpits! It is also obviously in the interests of the Mulahs to speak out against Jihads, the same thing translated exactly to “holy war” which to their credit, many have.
There is a toxic belief in determinism that permeates the Western halls of power, since it is a fact that the majority of Western power brokers are a form of Protestantism, whether Lutheran, Episcopal or any other branch that all place faith above works and believe that everything is exactly as God intended it. This is what they truly believe, which is in stark contrast to what every other branch of Christianity, including Catholism, Greek Orthodox, and Russian Orthodox believe, in addition to stark contrast of every other religion, including Judaism, who seem to have mistaken blood and soil for religion in a refusal to acknowledge that Israel is just geographically and humanely a terrible idea that will result in more bloodshed, oppression, and anti-Judaism than anything else on Earth.
When considering God, whether religious or atheist, just translate to Good and when considering the Devil whether religious or atheist just consider the Evil – D’Evil.
Mansoureh,
Also to be considered is that if one does believe in determinism, it is a belief that individuals are not responsible for their actions. If individuals do not have free will, and are not responsible for their actions, what is the point of having laws and governments?
The entire hypothesis seems ridiculous, for if those who believe that everything has been predetermined from the dawn of time, why do they feel the need to place themselves in positions of power, authority, and punishment?
According to their own belief, their own existinces are ludicrous.
Their might also be a predetermination of, or to, failure, from failure we arose, and once risen, we then once again failed.
@ andrea iravani
” believe that everything is exactly as God intended it”
I’m sorry but God did not intend any of this! I don’t know where you get this from really? God wanted a different route for mankind but man chose this for themselves and God foreknew it accordingly and allows it. When Israel asked for a king to rule over them do you know the history of what occurred? God foreknew what that would mean and tried to educate the Israelites accordingly. They however, balked demanding a human king who by the way did exactly as God foretold would happen and they paid the price and a terrible price it was to.
Before one starts down the road of predestination one needs to begin with foreknowledge and unlike us God foresees everything and has written warnings and advice accordingly.
please stop putting the cart before the horse for as someone greater than I said:
the enlightened spiritual mind will accept predestination as a result of the foreknowledge of God and not the exclusive unconditional election of puritan preferences.
Milan,
Evidently you have not read my statement correctly. I oppose the philosophy of predestination. Predestination by it’s very definition means that people do not have free will and are therefore not responsible for their actions. Predestination is exclusive to the Protestant religions and branches of Protestantism. All other branches of Christianity and religions believe that God gave people free will.
It is not possible to believe in both free will and predestination because they are contradictory.
@ Andrea Iravani
it is not as contradictory as you think it is:
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. Romans 8:29
Sure there is free will to choose as ones pleases but after the fact meaning once a person acknowledges and becomes a believer everything changes, everything.
For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Free will as it is gone for the believer for he is now God’s property Christ having paid with his own blood.
Further to this is the life of Mary the Mother of Christ. She was predestined from the get go to be the Mother of Christ. There was no free will for her period so in one sense you are correct in your summation but here’s the thing Mary wasn’t a none believer, she was Jewish, thus God’s property from the get go. There is a difference to be seen and the same applies to the 144,00 who are Jewish, all males and apparently all of a monastic order. At the prescribed time they will have a duty to perform and because they are Jews there is no free will for them to do as they please.
This is the difference
Look up predistination in the dictionary. What I am talking about is the belief held by Protestants. It is in contradiction that everyone has both free will and at the same time, that God has predestined everything in existence. It is the Protestant belief that everything has been predestined down to the 144,000 elect, from birth whether people will go to heaven or hell, and this is just to show what a total farce the Protestant faithbis is that the one and only thing that could change a predestination was labor, not to God, but to the King of England. The Protestant faith believes in predestination, and I have had numerous discussions with people in that faith who truly believe that if anyone wants to try to make the world a better place to live, without even specifying what they mean by that, they believe that the individual is “playing God” because everything is exactly as God intends it.”
It is outrageous that they believe this, but they do, and I know that for a fact because not only have I spoken with dozens of individuals, but have studied the religions as well.
Andrea Iravani
Okay, as far as the Calvinist branch of Protestantism is concerned then yes they hold to such a farce so there we will agree. Some even take it to far really.
Milan,
It is not limited to Calvanists. Martin Luther is also a fir believer in predistination, and also initiated the insane concept that people are redeemed by a declaration of faith alone, without any effort neccessary to stop sinful behavior. Why? Because of war.
The entire Protestant movement was a tool by King Henry the 8th so that he could get divorced. The 95 Thesis would have never been tolerated by him if he did not want a divorce.
That is why Wisconsin is a disaster. Lutheran is the religion of most people here, Arthur Jones, a neo-Nazi ran for Milwaukee mayor in 1980, Golda Meir is also from Milwaukee, the Republican Party started here, the Sewer Socialist party started here, and there was a socialist mayor in the 1960s, the Progressive movement started here with Bob LaFollette, ( who I happen to think was the best of the lot ). The John Birch society has head quarters here. This place is just a disaster.
If you have a belief, Wisconsin has a cult for that!
@ Andrea Iravani
lol, yeah something has gone very wrong with American Evangelicalism for sure. What you have said however, is really nothing compared to the disaster facing the Church in America if not the entire world. Indeed you mention the Lutherans well if you haven’t heard imagine them endorsing homosexuality and paying the price for it! One need only look at tornado that struck their glorious meeting in Minneapolis. Go here
https://binged.it/2QYAw8u
and watch and then know and understand that God did indeed pay them a visit by way of a tornado.
The Lord is slow to anger but great in power; the Lord will not leave the guilty unpunished. His way is in the whirlwind and the storm, and clouds are the dust of his feet. Nahum 1:3
The bible teaches that climate change is the work of God and so we are being punished for our sins. It even has the solution to our weather woes imagine that!!!!! What surprises me however, is the complete and total ignorance of people including even the church on this subject. In fact, from what I gather there is only one person on planet earth who has taken a stand that climate change is the work of
God and that is of course mentioned many times here Gerry Fox and his book Climate Change the Work of God. Read that book Andrea and you will or may find a new respect for the teachings of the bible and I dare say maybe instead of talking to Protestants spend some time within the pages of the bible you may learn something you never knew before. In fact if predestination is as you say is bullcarp why these words:
“I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’ Isaiah 46:10
Words that were repeated by Christ Himself:
I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. John 14:29
God has always wanted to keep us informed why?
The bible is not without proofs and God is certainly no absentee landlord over His creation and faith is not blind whatsoever. In fact if Gerry Fox hasn’t and quite convincingly I might add fulfilled these amazing words passed down to us from the 6th Century BC.
See, the storm of the Lord
will burst out in wrath,
a whirlwind swirling down
on the heads of the wicked.
20
The anger of the Lord will not turn back
until he fully accomplishes
the purposes of his heart.
In days to come
you will understand it clearly.
As for Wisconsin yeah good luck there! And if true that Washington is the Babylon prophesied in the book of Revelation chapter 18 its coming demise will be dreadful similar in fact to what Sodom and Gomorrah themselves experienced.
Actually, God had an interplanetary accident after creating the world…………and humans, unfortunitly, he never made it back to earth to finish his/her/its experiment. God is not a person, place or thing, God is everything. Trying to give or frame God in a human construct, sexed,……………….thats why humans kill other humans…….for thier God.
As for the made up story of the bible, never forget it was writen by psycotic (long before Freud gave them a field of medicne) murderers. They then sent others of thier psycotic ilk out to infiltrate and distort all other forms of religion that were developing………..a two thousand year project still in the works today.
When considering religious doctrines, it is best, in my opinion to take a Gestalt approach. Gestalt in analysis and in other practices, like visual arts, andperforming arts is the belief that the whole is greater than the summ of its parts. Similar to the saying, ” Can’t see the forest for the trees.”
If one chooses to mire oneself in the minutia, while failing to look at the big picture, they will not know what they are looking at.
Nobody ever says about a Picasso, I like this painting because of this brushstroke, or, well, I like all of the brush strokes, but I hate the painting over all.
People also frequently take one piece of information entirely out of context, and totally disregarding that these are ancient documents that have been transcribed thousands of times, in addition to translated, and all through ever changing linguistics, in addition to being edited and parts of the bible rewritten. I do not know if other religions have had the same with problems with their religious texts, but my guess would be that there is a high probability that it has happened.
Mr. Tadjik, peace be upon you and the profound words whispered into your mind by Allah, the most blessed, the most merciful and forgiving.
Man created the simple and common clay artifact but our beloved Lord created the diamond and other precious stones. That is a tiny example of God’s science and no academian in his or her chosen field of study and all the theories and axioms they boast about can ever equal the magnificence of what was conceived by our Heavenly Father.
Man’s thoughts serve the pleasure of God, even when he allows vile temptations to seduce us to test our devotion to him. Faith brings us closer to God; it creates a fortress to protect our soul from the thief that would steal our eternal happiness away from him.
You wrote, Instead of demanding deep awareness, accountability, and authenticity in doing all the constructive things God tells us to do and avoiding all the destructive things that God warns us against, we should do away with the words of God altogether. Which genius came up with that solution?
Those of us Christians and Muslims who are devoted to the Logos of God quickly know the answer; it was Satan. The Lord of the underworld is the bringer of darkness, earthy creator of despair, pride, gluttony and other venial and mortal sins that offend the Lord. He who is the great doubter, the tempter for all things material, the supreme hypocrite, the one who brings forth the torch of hellish fire hidden under the cloak of sweet confection to lure us ever so slightly away from our salvation.
Every time we Christian and Muslim faithful expose the work of the Devil, we chase him back into the darkness where he belongs. He fears the light of truth and cowers before that which he cannot overcome; our love for God and for him alone.
Across the many epochs of human existence, God has given us his holy word three times; the Torah, the New Testament and the Quran. Three chances to be saved during our pitiful and short time here on Earth. These divine works are the only cataphatism needed to achieve what the Lord wants for us, eternal life beyond our comprehension.
Failure means we succumb to the will of Satan. Let us not weaken our resolve; let us fight together as brothers and sisters for our salvation against the great evil. It is such a brief time to endure the great struggle; isn’t it worth it?
I think the only thing the gods left behind was the language, the rest of the people are on their own.
NOTE: dear mod, pls check if post is ok by your standards and good sharing here. SUPER thanks!
“the only thing the gods left behind was the language, the rest of the people are on their own.”
Language? The seed of all chaos, the instrument of divide, and the murmuring of god-spell but disguise and sold as ‘higher species god given super ability called communication’?
Language? All because a bunch of ppl make sound differently from another bunch of ppl and they each want to label “this” and “that” differently and EGOistically give ‘meaning’ to ‘this’ and ‘that’ differently?
And “meaning” is defended by force of violence because you must believe what I believe, not only because I am ‘rightly’ projecting some soundbites but I have bigger weapons to destroy the other soundbites machine – your body, thereby I destroy your ‘rights’ to label ‘this’ and ‘that’ different from me and therefore I destroy the ‘meaning’ that would give you self-accredited ‘power’ on this CLOSED system, called earth and reserve that god-given exclusive ‘power’ all to myself. And that god is MY god because I agree to do some “deals” with “IT”.
That “language” thingy?
How generous is/are this/these god/gods? No wonder life is a drama-theatre-circus show. As programmed and planned, and with no freewill, unless one is outside of god(s).
Are you entertained?
Nobody ever believe god. Its not possible.
—> Everyone believe in the belief of their chosen image of their god(s). remove that ***belief***, and your ***chosen image of god*** immediately ceased to exist, by you and in you.
That’s a ***belief.
(Unless you can remove god(s), then I am wrong here. Some can. I know.)
And what is that ***belief, if it is not also a kind of language extended to appear more fancy, more complex type of “self-reflection”, that is a mixture of ego and narrative?
Question, does god speak a ‘language’? Any soundbite projection that is?
Or they, like us once before, was born with telepathy and “universal translator” programming that has no bound across all species, not trapped just on earth???! Does not the native speak to plants and animals and spirits and sky and moon and rock and other dimensions, oh you self-declared modern man? You are so “advance” by your language you build this sandcastle you call advance civilisation, based on your type of soundbite, that is god spells, fully backed up by your god(s)!
That “language” thingy??? Some god hey?! Who btw loves you more than others???
A separation of species is totally required and the “not us” must be dealt with without mercy nor rights.
FEAR NOT, dear friends… for that too is also NOTHING but a ***belief.
Unless they can kill your god(s), or their god(s) can kill your god(s), then we play at another level!
Be safe there.
“To be clear, God is a verb!
God is not a person, place, or thing (noun). God is not a flattering title. God is not an empty name.
God is a word of Absolute Substance, perhaps the only Word. For the Word of God is no word at
all, but the actions (verb) of Jesus christ. To follow in the path of Jesus christ is to fulfill God’s Word
(verb). It is as an ancient and seemingly indecipherable riddle finally solved, not by myself of
course, but by merely discovering the Origin of meaning and spiritual Intent of the Ultimate
Author of all Things. The Word of God is Jesus christ, and Jesus christ is the savior, whose name
only means Jehovah is salvation.
All that is — all that is Permanent in Nature; all that is in a state of Being in Life as Reality – this is
Jehovah. This is the One True God. All other names (nouns) used to describe this Reality of All that
Is serves only in the purpose and aid of man’s designs against Nature and the Natural Law of God
(of Permanent Being). In other words, we now may understand why it is that all other gods are
false. For no other gods are the actual Reality of all that Exists in Permanence as Oneness. In other
words, no other names of gods are as a verb.” – Clint Richardson http://www.strawmanstory.info/
You obviously got confused with the interpretation of language, which was also probably a preordained part of the plan of the gods.
The alphabet and the construction of the language was designed as tools to achieve everlasting life (life of 1000 years or more for humans), but humans being the sinners that they inheritly are, decided that this was a good way to control humans and so a profiling and stereotyping formula was created and put into place to achieve this belief. When I confronted these same people for controlling rather than teaching, they naturally disagreed and ended the conversation, but then again they dont have the ability to live 1000 years, where as I do, so riddle me that “thingy”.
pls note: this is for pure discussion only
So on the “1000 years or more”, where so you THINK (a mental ability) you are now?
Just starting the 1000 year or the middle or ending soon?
Why 1000? when china (gods) already claim to have at least 20,000 history? and the indian claim even longer. and lets agree not to resurrect Odin and all others (that is not in the western vocabulary).
So where exactly are you now?! Thats is THINK you are now?!
p/s btw you are free to believe whatever you want, including whatever god or gods. I am merely showing you the THINKING processes most are unaware and hence they, with lesser than noble intention, in history, sold you the fake god(s) and ask for protection and salvation money. YUP it always comes back to the money, the western god(s) and the eastern god(s).
p/s do I believe in god(s)? HELL YES and I use them to do ‘thingy’ and no I don’t pay them no nothing! Why? because I know where I AM. A bit deep here but if you can figure out, you can own it too :)
p/s What if man created god(s)? NOT god(s) created man? Hmmmm….. who lied?!
be safe there
I am talking about people, not country’s.
yes i mean in china some claim to have lived 20,000 years in ancient past and the indians claimed to have lived even longer…
but again as I tried to shared before – you too can claim its all just a belief.
Dont have to be outright false, since we are cautious here, but we still have the issue/problem of – we cannot know beyond what we choose to believe.
again when we change our choice of belief, we change our choice of god(s), thus our “god” is change too.
Thus man created god(s).
again, pls, I am not here to proof your god is false or real, but that as ‘human’, we may not have the built-in ability or biology/mental function to know beyond the closed system.
There are at least 2 major closed system that ‘trap’ us here – 1) our body 2) earth/nature and if you like, you can add the regime system, which is also another closed system and religion, also a closed system. There seems to be an innate “firewall” per say and all closed system has a dead end (as oppose to open ended).
Thats why religion, by tradition and by necessity, must rely on ‘faith’ as the centre piece of their ‘business’ structure.
I am though deadly against those others (both west and east) who comes in and sell god(s) like their private property with secret ‘deal’ just for you. *** Yes in the east (and the west if you look deeper and more carefully) god is for sale! *** (and some of them does work like magic charms saving lives and bestowing prosperity and longveity – not necessarily a bad thingy by ‘human’ ego/desire benefit)
It is one thing that human should be rule by god, (if that is the case)
but another thing for human to pose as god or god’s proxy to rule man as god(s).
I think you agree with me on this one.
Claims are easily disproved when it comes to age, b/c gravity discriminates against no one no matter what period of time one dwells in and keeping ones health has never been easy in the past.
And one may have the experience to know some things that many others dont, or cant, for reasons that are unexplainable by those same many others. I already know the limitations of god, she must rely on humans to advance her evolutionary plans or destruction is the only option. As for rules, or being ruled, I believe in the golden one.
“I believe in the golden one.”
so you confess here – its a belief. your belief. your personal chosen belief.
and you can change it.
Just as once you didnt have that belief and was without.
1) and you change a belief,
2) and then your belief,
3) and add a chosen belief
4) and internalised it as your personal chosen belief.
5) and you think to yourself you and your belief are one now. YAY!
you started with 0 and you are now 1 in the closed system of that particular belief.
you created god(s)
– so you can also un-create god(s) – just reverse the process.
(thats not the hard part. The tricky part is they wont let you leave the club or hotel california. alive.)
nothing wrong with that. thats what they would tell you.
for if and if it is wrong, then you are wrong. Thats what they would tell you. like some sin that was ‘automatic born’
and the ‘sale of god’ quietly pushed as the remedy – a belief-packaged as salvation and immortality ‘just for YOU’
nothing wrong with that, if you like that belief.
but you probably know too – all belief comes witha price tag. Nothing is free.
Not even NOTHINGESS, it is also not free (but thats too deep to discuss here)
live by your belief. die by your belief. Thats what they wont tell you.
Who are “they”? And can “they” defend their “beliefs” in a court of natural law? This is what needs to be known.
Thats a very good question!
Are “they” your god(s)? or are “they” your self-reflection (a mixture of your ego and your narrative – thereby you created your god(s))?
A very good thingy to find out… I agree with you :)
Especially for you b/c you use the word so strongly.
?,
I would have to disagree with you. Take math or science for examples, or algorithms, someone assigned numbers and values to things to prove things and comminicate these things, the math and science did not create the formulas or algorithms. They already existed. Most religions believe that God is a force of goid and righteousness and creation, and the devil is a force of evil and destruction. Most people know that it is wrong and evil to do certain things, and good and right to do certain other things. Most people concede that they are not creators of the universe and that it is all a figment of their imagination, and most people have at one time in their lives had things done to them, beyond their control which they consider to be bad or evil. So since people developed the formulas for math and science, that does not mean that there would be a total breakdown of math and science in the universe, people would not suddenly float of the ground, or suddenly become larger than the earth, just because math and science were not formulated by man.
Nobody would say, 2+2 cannot equal 4 because 1+ 3 = 4, so, these statements must be contadtictions, therefore they are wtong.
good, not gold. hacker did that.
Or it could just be me and Mrs. Jones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud5KoW8juOk
@AI
pls agree that this is pure discussion and I am not responsible to any snow-event (should that happen – say like in Alabama) This is purely a intellectual exchange that digs deep into the THINKING facualty.
If you agree on the above, make sure you agree on the above,
Does 2 + 2 = 4? Does 1 + 3 = 4?
Or is 2 + 2 = 4 just a belief? be it a ‘scientific’ belief? a common unexamined belief? a belief ‘they’ want you to believe? (like many other thingy – or rather like EVERYTHING they made belief for you in their mode of worlds?)
You should find out if you are into the deeper thingy.
?
Since there was no reply button after your message regarding 2+2 being a belief, etc… What I can tell you is that since I am not lving in a black hole, the laws of math and science still apply, now, I am not willing to voluntarily jump into a black hole, but since the gravity in a black hole is so much stronger, the laws of physics, chemistry, math, do in fact break down. If you happen to be in the unfortunate position of being in a black hole, I am gessing that you are not, since light cannot escape, nor anything else. One could argue, that everything equals one, but that is a different discussion.
@AI
How do you know you are NOT in a black hole? Or is that just a belief?
The works of Nassim Haramein ‘proves’ that we are in a black hole, mathematichally and we are a black hole, mathematically.
Nassim Haramein can prove much much more than the conventional science.
If you are interested, you can find out more, both your belief and the black hole.
p/s btw your understading of “black hole” needs some updating – just a kind suggestion :)
?,
Considering that a human being cannot survive under the gravitational force in a black hole, my guess is that Nassim is incorrect that we are in a black hole, for starters. Secondly, the gravitational force in a black hole would elongate people, and everything like spaghetti. Furthermore, Once things appear at the event horizon, they enter the black hole and “disappear” from the universe. Astronomical events would also disprove that. Now if someone would say that we cannot escape the universe, I would agree, but that does not correlate to the universe being a black hole. Since the speed of light equals the speed of gravity when not in a black hole, that also proves that we are not in a black hole. There is a super massive hole at the center of the Milky Way, and many other galaxies, but we are not in it, further more, the universe is expanding.
@AI
this is where belief come in as the focus dicussion here…
If you change your belief, then perhaps you will find something else to be true.
Thats the whole point.
Furthermore, if you are brave enough, to question where your belief comes from – again as i questioned, is that from your god(s) or your “self-reflection” thats is your ego and your narrative – thats is, you believe because you want to believe.
If you have a chance or change of heart, do check out Nassim. It could change your belief too.
Anyhow I regret to end the discussion here. This no reply button is driving me crazy and its weekend coming on too. happy holidays to you :)
?,
Exactly what point are you trying to make, and what is your motive? To attempt to convince me that God is a figment of my imagination? What would motivate someone to do something like that? To go out of there way to try to convince someone that they have never even met that there is no God, that we are living in a black hole, etc… It would appear that you are either posessed by the devil, or involved in some type of mind control program for the purposses of theft or something extremely nefarrious.
As bad as things are, I am not willing to jump from the frying pan into the fire. If the jerks that are involved in these mind control programs minds were as powerful as they have convinced themselves that they are, they could merely think their way out of this world and into Nirvana or Shangrila, or Utopia, or Heaven. Based on the behavior of those controlling the narative, ( the Hoverment, Wall Street, and corporations) it is quite clear that they have totally failed to do that for themselves, let alone anyone else.
It is not as simple as ” We doctors know a hopeless case when we see one, there’s a hell of a good universe nextdoor, let’s go.”
?,
It is a leap in logic to say that someone believes because they want to believe. If believing things resulted in things, nobody would suffer, nobody would starve, nobody would desire anything, because they would simply have to believe that whatever problem they had didn’t exist, they can believe it if they want to, but then they will look pretty ridiculous, like in the headlines for example, the DNC anti-Russian campaign. They want to believe that if it were not for Russia, Hillary Clinton would be president, when in reality, most people just dislike Hillary Clinton, and it has nothing to do with Russia at all.
@In the words of late physicist David Bohm, “A wrong question is one which already assumes the very thing that ought to be questioned.”
Isn’t that what the logicians know as the ‘begging the question’ fallacy or ‘petitio principii’, defined of course by Aristotle: “τὸ ἐν ἀρχῇ αἰτεῖσθαι (to en archei aiteisthai, “asking the original point”?
It is the attempt to support a claim with a premise that itself presupposes the claim, to prove a proposition while simultaneously taking the proposition for granted.
You write a thought provoking essay. Science and belief together from a different viewpoint.
Belief in God’s word as stated in a book. At first look it sounds good but there have been wars fought over how to properly read a holy book. In central Europe was a war between Sweden allied with northern Germany with both being lutheran and the Catholic South of Germany and Austria. Officially it was about religion and from 1618 until 1648 some 70% of the population got killed in the name of Christian religion.
I am sure there are plenty more similar examples all over the world like this.
Such events make me cautious to take a holy book absolute.
Another reason to be careful is the question wether the holy book is the original or has been changed by a human later on. As far as I know all originals of the holy books are lost despite their crucial importance and only copies of copies of copies are left.
Another question is whether the belief works. A joke may illustrate the point:
When handing over the parish to the successor the priest says: They are bad people but very good catholics.
My personal conclusion is to look for direct experience. This aproach is by no means new but was common in ancient Greece with the Eleusinian Mysteries as the most famous example.
…..”Swedenborg is neither the first nor the last thinker to study the hidden meanings of numbers—there’s an entire field known as numerology. There are so many specific numbers used within the Bible—dimensions, directions, specific lengths of time—that there must be something else going on, Swedenborg reasoned. Why include seemingly irrelevant details? These numbers must represent something deeper.
It has been often shown me that the spiritual things of heaven, such as those which the angels think and speak, also fall into numbers. When they were conversing, their discourse fell into pure numbers, and these were seen upon paper; they afterwards said that it was their discourse which had fallen into numbers, and that those numbers in a series contained everything they uttered. (Apocalypse Explained §429)
Ancient people were quite familiar with this angelic language, Swedenborg says, and understood the symbolism of even large or complex numbers. Numerology tends to be considered a fringe interest in our time, but the ancients used numbers to preserve spiritual concepts that they could not communicate in words.
In the afterlife, these numbers are used to communicate ideas and mysteries that cannot be contained in words. Numeric writing is able to include more spiritual information, serving as a sort of bridge between higher and lower mindsets.”
Mansoureh Tadjik is a womans name, drop the “Mr.” and “Sir”.. :)