Combats SITREP from “Juan”
- Igla-S man protable anti aircraft missiles were found ‘abandoned’ beside a country road’ by Donbas Army, confirmed. Quantity unknown.
- A video of a Ukrainian Sukhoi ground attack plane being shot down 30 May is extant. No verification of the incident by witness account from a crash sight. The pilot ejecting is visible on the video.
- Ternopol: Some government buildings have been taken by the people, one admin building burned 30 May.
- Several ZU-23 anti aircraft systems (which can be used with devastating effects as heavy rapid-fire machine guns on ground targets) were “found” by Donbas Army. Source and number of as new condition weapons unknown. The weapon systems are now in use of the Donbas Army.
- Casualties from the bombardments of Slavyansk and Donetsk are estimated in excess of 50 civilians but this number is not verified. It is verified that one 5 year old girl child has lost a foot.
- Children were being evacuated from Slavyansk to Russian Federation and sent to Sevastopol yesterday and today. That evacuation has been suspended due to the situation in Slavyansk as of early this afternoon local time.
- Heavy fighting is continuing in parts of Slavyansk and outlying areas all day and intensifying as of 17:55 31.05.2014.
- Donetsk Airport is still the scene of sporadic fighting since afternoon 29 May. Fighting still occurring 31 May.
- Casualties of junta Army as of 28 May are reported to be 627. Casualties of the junta Army since that date are reported by the same source as 250. Both figures are KIA (killed in action). WIA (wounded in action) are not known accurately but the source estimates in excess of 700 WIA up to 28 May. WIA after there is no estimate.
- Desertions from Ukrainian Army are confirmed at a minimum of 1428 as of 28 May. No numbers reported after that date. It is unknown if these figures include national guard/right sector casualties.
- 18:21 local time unconfirmed reports from Donetsk Airport that a junta Army unit has turned at least some of their weapons on national guard/right sector fighters in airport terminal, reason unknown.
——-
My own sources confirm that Slaviansk has seen the heaviest artillery strikes ever with shells landing more or less randomly in the city. Still, the huge artillery barrage which “Juan” and, by the way, one of the leaders of the Resistance, Viacheslav Ponomarev had feared would occur last night did not happen. In other words, the means to flatten Slaviansk have been deployed, but the political decision seems to be the only thing waiting to happen and, as Crossvader on others had suggested, this decision would entail major risks for the regime in Kiev. My personal guess is that the local commanders of the Ukie death-squands around Slaviansk would love to open up with everything they have against those they call “terrorists”, “bugs” or “Moskals” but that folks like Poroshenko in Kiev see, if not the big picture, then at least a bigger picture. For one thing, the Russians could simply walk out from the negotiations on gas deliveries. What is certain is that the fight for the control of rump-Ukraine is now on, with on one hand the Poroshenko-Klichko duo trying to get Kiev under control and on the other the Iarosh-Timoshenko-Tiagnibok-Liashko freak show trying to put pressure on him with maximalist demands. The compromise in Novorossia seems to be “we will shell enough to create a panic, but not enough to trigger a real bloodbath”. This is most definitely not an effective tactics.
Combat operations in many parts of the world have all shown that while the initial shock takes a very heavy toll on the civilian population, after a while people learn how to adapt and survive. There are already reports about children recognizing the the weapons used to shell them by their sound. Schools are now closed, and most families spend their time in or near shelters. As for the fighting men of the Novorosiia Defense Forces (NDF) they will not be eliminated or forced to retreat by artillery strikes. Again, an analysis of recent urban combat operation shows that artillery and air strikes are not enough to prevail against a trained military force dug-in inside a city. The only known way to defeat a force dug-in inside a city is to engage in building-to-building infantry warfare, something very similar to WWII. As soon as you put your own force inside a city it becomes very tricky to use artillery fire support (because you risk hitting your own men) and air strikes, especially with powerful bombs or missiles, become especially dangerous. The only way to clear a city from its defenders becomes to send in heavily armed (infantry) assault teams, supporter by armor, to clear the city street by street and house by house, probably the most difficult mission one can give to an infantry force and one in which the better trained and most experienced side will have a huge advantage over your typical “street rioter turned national guardsman in 2 weeks” kind of attacker.
Right now the junta is using an old Bolshevik technique: they send conscript units into combat and right behind them they use “blocking squads” – special Right Sector death squads which will summarily execute anybody not willing fight. While such methods are more or less doable in open terrain they are absolutely impossible to use in an urban environment. Thus, those Ukrainian army forces which might be able to competently execute an urban assault (paratroopers) are rarely willing to do so, while those who would be most willing to do so would either be killed in minutes (“street rioter turned national guardsman in 2 weeks”) or to cowardly to try (death squads).
What we have witnessed so far is typical of the inability of the junta to lead a competent military operation. All they have done so far is:
1) First terror tactic: the random shelling of Slaviansk and other cities.
2) Second terror tactic: random shooting at civilians.
3) Attacking checkpoints located outside the cities.
4) Attacking symbolic objectives located outside the cities like the Donetsk Airport.
As I have said it many times, time is not on the side of the junta. Civilians are gradually being evacuated from the combat zone and even if the Ukrainian authorities use various intimidation and nasty harassment techniques against these refugees (like forcing them to get out of their buses and continue on foot), they cannot simply kill them all (too many cellphones with cameras, too many reporters out there). As for the NDF, they are clearly getting more and more weapons such as the MANPADS (man portable air defense systems) and rapid fire AA (anti-air) guns mentioned by “Juan” which the NDF seems to regularly “find” here and there. By the way, MANPADS and AA guns are the *perfect* weapons for urban warfare. The first ones prevent not only air strikes but also air mobility (ferrying around of men and equipment) as we have seen with the recent death of the junta thug-general in charge of the “National Guard” in the Donbass. As for rapid-fire AA guns they can not only shoot helicopters and aircraft, they can turn any wall or lightly armored vehicle into confetti in just a few seconds. Even a main battle tank will be badly rattled if a ZU-23 puts well-laid burst of steel armor-piercing rounds on it. My understanding is that so far the NDF only has the towed version, but sooner or later they are going to get the self-propelled one (the ZU-23-4 lovingly called “Shilka“) which is normally used as air-defense system for in any motor-rifle or armored regiment. As for the old ZU-23-2 they can be mounted on pickups and trucks (though these vehicles will shake badly during firing). I think of these simple but formidable weapons has “WWII weapons on steroids”.
Everything I wrote above about Slaviansk is even more applicable to big cities like Donetsk which feature two additional and formidable obstacles to overcome for the attacking forces: big strong buildings build with reinforced concrete with deep basements and a buried and redundant communications network. The former make it even harder to use artillery or airstrikes to support attacking infantry units while the latter make it all but impossible to disrupt the defenders communications. Big cities also have more food stores, more supply and ammo dumps, they can be better prepared for defense (axes of attack are easier to predict in a city) and the defending force can be *more* mobile inside a big city than in the open. Finally, cities have even more civilians with video cameras and cellphones and they also have more journalists and reporters. The political costs of attacking a big city are thus much higher than the ones of a almost “private massacre” in a small village which, at any rate, might be discovered only days later. Some of the worst massacres in Rwanda did not take place in Kigali (which saw plenty of horrors) but in small villages hidden in the hills and forests.
Bottom line: this is one the junta leaders cannot win. They hope to bait Russia in, but if Russia resists the provocation, and I believe Russia will, they will have to give up and, as I said yesterday, I think that the junta will do so sooner rather than later.
The Saker
Dear Saker,
It is so interesting to see (from an Indian viewpoint) the two diametrically opposed world views of the Orthodox Christianity and that of the Catholics or even Protestants for that matter.
But my contention is that why Orthodox faiths are not evangelizing in the rural and urban hinterlands like say Korea , India , Latin America or Africa where it is the CIA-backed Catholics and Evangelists who hold a tremendous amount of influence.
Why Orthodox are not challenging these people by sending missions in these places?
Take care
Debanjan
Curiosity speaking here:
@Saker
Do you regard the “Autocephalous” Galicians to be Orthodox or not?
Johan Meyer
VINEYARDSAKER: on 01 June, 2014 03:52 said…
VINEYARDSAKER: on 01 June, 2014 04:02 said…
Salam, Peace, Shalom Saker,
I am glad that you took the time and wrote the above two posts, in which you have nicely explained the theological differences and the status of individual being.
Have a nice sleep my friend.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Not sure at 100 % but it seems to me that previous pope (Benedict) wanted to have better relations with the orhodox church. http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2011/11/30/97001-20111130FILWWW00527-benoit-xvi-s-adresse-aux-orthodoxes.php
Maybe that, among other things, was part of the reasons he had to resign his mission and let the church go its way with a more “CIA compliant” jesuit.
Re New Insight @ 00:28
” The real strategic objective is to conquer and eliminate Russia.”
I suggest the real strategic objective is to control the world and the activities there in,including their own “nations”; the fall back position is to control what they can control.
Russia is included in the target, but does not comprise the whole target, or war in Ukraine the sole tactic.
The hubris is amazing and very funny; like trying to command sea waves to recede, or insist on exceptionalism.
Re Afterthought @23-08 310514
” Modern military equipment vs civilians is a war crime.”
War is using military equipment against civilians – has been for a while.
Most casualties in war are civilians but not all necessarily killed by military equipment.
The ones who are not demonstrably killed by military equipment, for example through disease, famine, stress etc. are not often counted.
The main target in war is the civilian population.
Saker,
Good morning, my friend, and I hope I didn’t keep you up last night! I’m glad I waited to respond, too. It’s fascinating — in your first post you answered the question I actually wrote (about Jews) but then deleted bc I am sick of talking about them! Yes. And I was taught that the second part of that was spreading this new faith not just among Jews — who were forbidden at the time to even eat at the same table with non-Jews — but the rest of the world as well. Wasn’t it Peter who finally realized that, after he and Paul had had some serious disagreements over it? Very threatening indeed. But do you really think that Jews have a special hatred for Orthodox Christians, as opposed to, well, everyone else? I mean, some of those rabbis actually believe non-Jews aren’t even fully human, so I’m not so sure their superiority complex bothers to distinguish between different kinds of goys.
In any case, yes, I absolutely DO see what you’re talking about; that was also part of what I deleted. :~) I was just coming from my own experience in America where, with certain obvious, primarily color-based exceptions, everyone else has finally pretty much managed to get along. And that includes “agreeing to disagree” vis-a-vis the “my belief is the only *true* belief issue”, which may not be exactly the same (the terms are slightly different, derivation of true faith as opposed to church as historical repository for it) but also foundational, institutional and pretty horrible sometimes. Two hundred years ago it was Baptists vs. Presbyterians, before that it was Quakers, more recently, well, ask any Mormon. And I think hatred of Jews was a real thing here before they became a protected and then dominant class, and absolutely based on the teaching that they killed Christ as well as general mistrust for not being Christian. So while I get what you’re saying, I do think we’ve had something similar enough here and it has faded. But it’s probably easier for it to fade here bc there’s so much diversity and people are used to different customs, foods, histories etc., so adding in faith is just applying something they already do to a new set of circumstances. Very different indeed from a 1000-year conflict with the same two players and pretty much the same groups of people!
I am curious though: since most Catholics I know really don’t know that much about Church history, whether Catholics here really do feel the kind of existential “kill the messenger” antagonism you describe. My very strong hunch is no — but that could well be because there just aren’t that many of you guys around, as well as our general ignorance a) of history and b) of the whole issue. I’ve certainly never gotten any hostility-to-Orthodox-Christianity vibes from any Episcopalian clergy I’ve ever known, or observed any hostility aimed at Orthodox Christians, and I’ve usually got pretty good radar for that stuff.
Saker, here’s part 2:
I am curious though: since most Catholics I know really don’t know that much about Church history, whether Catholics here really do feel the kind of existential “kill the messenger” antagonism you describe. My very strong hunch is no — but that could well be because there just aren’t that many of you guys around, as well as our general ignorance a) of history and b) of the whole issue. I’ve certainly never gotten any hostility-to-Orthodox-Christianity vibes from any Episcopalian clergy I’ve ever known, or observed any hostility aimed at Orthodox Christians, and I’ve usually got pretty good radar for that stuff.
But actually, now that I think of it, the same dynamic does hold for Catholics experiencing the “disturbing witness issue” regarding Protestants. Again, the terms are slightly different but we’re still talking founding myths and apostasy. And yes, the real hatred and distrust (both of which have significantly abated in mainline Christianity during my lifetime) came from the new, break-away guys: seeing the RC church as the Whore of Babylon, etc. That’s pretty strong stuff. The strongest anti-Protestant feelings I’ve seen, otoh, are Irish and that has more to do with a Godawful history of repression that goes back even further than Henry VIII, than “just” faith per se.
However, this “disturbing witness issue” sure fits the Native American experience, doesn’t it? Much easier to ignore, denigrate and continue to repress people — and keep your side ignorant of their significant accomplishments — because if they did flourish (or if it were widely known, for example, that in the early years of this country a whole lot of white women ran away to the Indians because they were treated better and had a higher standard of living), it would certainly challenge our founding myths. Palestinians, who likewise had a highly sophisticated, mercantile culture, are of course another case in point.
And after pondering this some more, I’m thinking there’s another, psychological aspect to it and that is (over) compensating for what, deep down inside, the usurpers know they have done. Racism is a relatively new phenomenon: blacks and whites were both enslaved in the New World (more Irish than Blacks in the 17th century, actually, bc Irish were free and cheaper to import. Then came Haiti and a couple slave revolts here and slaveowners got seriously scared, clamped down on free blacks, made it easier for whites to become free and developed a theory that blacks were inferior and needed to be slaves. Before that (and after that: think Pushkin) they just had a different skin color. But doesn’t that fit too — not “instead of” but “in addition to”? Of course, the economics of the situation here just reinforced the nastiness: lots of money to be made from stolen land and stolen labor. And then, of course, cognitive dissonance helps maintain the whole thing — when there’s so much at stake, it’s very frightening indeed to acknowledge you’ve been wrong, so you fight all the harder not to, and hate all the more. But I’m telling you, bottom line, even though I know behavior at best is multi-genetic and more than likely culturally-triggered, I still find myself torn between feeling genuine hope that we all can learn to get along, and thinking we Westerners have this really hideous nasty-anger gene! :~)
Now, if you and anyone else can actually get through reading all this, do have a pleasant (and please, for all you Ukrainians, SAFE!) Sunday!
Nathaniel to his friend, Benjamin: Ben, I’m seriously thinking of becoming a Christian. What do you think about the Catholic Church?
Ben: Nate, you must be kidding… Do as you wish, but it’s really crazy to join them! Just think at that ridiculous Pope of Rome, who made himself Great Priest and Emperor of Christians, while nobody seem to care about his lunacy… And his staff, full of depravity and corruption! Haven’t you learned yet about all their homosexuals and pedos, especially cardinals and other high ranks?
Nate: Well, I’ll go to Rome and see myself if all that I’ve heard from the media is true. Then I’ll be able to make the right decision.
Ben: My dear friend, you’re wasting your time and money. There’s nothing to be seen at Rome, only greed and depravity, believe me.
Even so, Nate goes to Rome for a long holiday. A couple of months later he comes back and calls his friend.
Nate: Ben, I’ve been at Rome!
Ben: Did you see what’s up at the Vatican? The depravity and the corruption of the Pope and of his staff?
Nate: It’s even worse than what you’ve told me!
Ben: Now, you understand what a huge mistake you were going to do? Joining that Church…
Nate: After all I’ve seen, now I’m sure that I’ve choosen the right Church. I’m gonna be a Catholic.
Ben: You are completely crazy, my friend!
Nate: Ben, just think about it. If one thousand years they had such corrupted leaders, who only bring scandals and defamation to their Church, and it still doesn’t fall, then it must be the real Church!
P.S. It’s just a (sad) joke, unfortunately it seems some day the same thing will be said about the Orthodox Church. But there will be a small and healthy part in both branches, who will not follow the Deceiver. However, the Pope and his ecumenic followers will bow to him, according to the prophecy.
Hi, Saker, couldn’t post this yesterday. Lots of readers and not otherwise interfered with I hope. Is it possible to set up a mirror site with Word Press?
If you are referring to this http://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_russian_army_light_heavy_weapons_uk/sa-24_grinch_9k338_igla-s_portable_air_defense_missile_system_technical_data_sheet_specifications_uk.html the Sa-24 Grinch Isla-S manpad being introduced to the separatist arsenal that will even up the odds a fair bit.
@ New Insight,
Thank you very much for the interesting link to the interview with Evgeny Fedorov, so instructive, even for no russian people. Despite I´ve spent most of the morning watching it, it´s worth.
I have been very concerned about the concepts of “vegetable”, “developing countries”, “natives”, or “serves” an “fifth column”….
Actually tha tasks are common to all, although some countries we are already subject: to constitute Popular Liberation Movements with the people who have awakened to wake up the sleeping vegetables, identify those who are the “fifth column”, desintegrate it, and fight for dignity and freedom.
I´ll spread it over there.
Kind regards.
A modest personal observation about Uniats, or Eastern Catholics, as they are called by us benighted Western Catholics (the Bishop of Rome is also Patriarch of the West) — related to the situation in the Ukraine: There are two Eastern Catholic churches in my area, both of which I’ve attended. One is “Byzantine Catholic”, descended from the Rusyn of Transcarpathia, the other is a “Particular Ukrainian Catholic”, descended from Galicians, in some cases with actual Galicians. The Byzantines are all sweetness and light, open, good natured, carefree, welcoming, with a brightly lit church replete with beautiful icons and stained-glass windows. Their Liturgy in a mix of English and Church Slavonic written in Latin characters. The Ukrainians are almost the exact opposite: morose, touchy, very pointedly Ukrainian rather than Catholic (calling their leading prelate “Patriarch of Kiev” rather than Major Archbishop of Lviv, the term Vatican uses in deference to Orthodoxy), with a dark, gloomy all-wood church, a few icons on the iconostasis, otherwise dark wall hangings instead. Their Divine Liturgy is entirely in Ukrainian, in Ukrainian Cyrillic. The Byzantines are filled with the Austro-Hungarian gemütlichkeit of their origin, the Ukrainians with the Polish arrogance of theirs, just like the difference between the Transcarpathians, who want nothing to to with the current regime in the Ukraine, and the Ukrainian regime, which wants it all.
PS: A few words about the Jesuits. (Consider me a spy in the enemy camp.) Since Vatican II the Jesuits have been leaders of the most open, democratic, modernizing elements in the Church, as the Bishop of Rome (so he styles himself) is today. As a result, they are despised and denigrated by conservative elements in the Church. (The difference is more style than substance, except Humanae Vitae, which the Jesuits along with 99% of Catholics deplore.) Historically, they’ve been leaders of education, founding schools and universities wherever they went. In Paraguay, they established the famous Jesuit Reductions, maybe the only serious attempt to build a Christian society on Earth, until destroyed by greedy land-seekers (see the movie “The Mission”). They led the English mission in the late 1500’s and early 1600’s, smuggling in priests after Catholicism was outlawed but the population still Catholic, suffering some 300 grizzly martyrdoms by hanging and quartering (repaying the protestant martyrs under Bloody Mary body by body). In my Maryland Catholic heritage, they kept the faith alive when it was outlawed from 1690 to 1775, celebrating mass on their estates, where they couldn’t be touched by law because “an Englishman’s home is his castle.” In the new United States they strove for an open, democratic, modernizing Church modeled after the new nation, until they were overwhelmed a hundred years later by large numbers of dogmatic Irish clergy more Catholic than the Pope. It’s been a long time since the Jesuits have been Jesuitical.
I think I missed something but when it’s said that weapons systems were “found” by eastern forces, does this imply they were supplied covertly by Russia, or are there multiple possibilities, captured from ukie army, abandoned by ukie army, or something else I’m missing possibly. I feel kinda lame asking as it’s written like it should be obvious but I just want to be 100% clear.
Also, I wanted to thank so many of the commenters here who, whether with additional information, intelligence, spirituality, caring or curiosity make this site so much more than the sum of its parts, I’ve thanked Saker and Juan many times but it’s the whole community that makes this such a special and invaluable source of info and inspiration. Thank you all. Except for the occasional troll or random douchebag of course.
@Armenian Catholic: You’re Catholic-bashing again
Yes, I know, you wish we would not speak. Our witness is really a pain for you. But we are not bashing you – history does. All we do is remind people of that history.
Historically, the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy have always been more cultural and political than theological
Another typical Latin lie. What about the filioque in the most sacred dogma, the Symbol of Faith? What about the Immaculate Conception? What about the invention of a Pope as a super-bishop? What about the dogma of Satisfaction? What about the Papal infallibility? What about the invention of the Purgatory? What about the denial of the uncreated energies of God? The list is so long I cannot put it all here. The Orthodox Church has clearly denounced the Papacy as heretical many times over from at least 15th century are really before that.
But Latins always want to hide that fact. So they say that differences are cultural or political or even just a matter of eastern vs. western rites. No, while the Papacy has called Orthodox schismatic (since it could find not doctrinal fault in us), but the Church has always denounced the Papacy as *heretical*.
For a thousand years powerful forces in the Catholic Church have repeatedly sought to heal the Schism
Another lie. Your idea of healing the ‘schism’ (again, no acceptance of the fact that the Church sees the Papacy is heretical) is to submit and absorb us, like what you suggested at the false Union of Florence and with the so-called Ecumenical “dialog of love” does today.
Just leave us alone! Let us be. That is really the best you can do. Just forget about our existence and we will be immensely grateful, I promise you.
Your persistent anti-Catholicism does little to overcome these divisions and complicates those efforts in the Church to break with the Atlanticists/Americanists
Dude, what are you talking about?! You have just freshly declared JP2 a saint even though he was a de-facto CIA agent working hand in glove with Vernon Walters. With “friends” like these we really do not need enemies…
Seriously, there is one thing I simply don’t get: why to Latins always, always have to *lie* about the past and *lie* about the what separates them from the Church. Be honest about it! Stop pretending! Who do you think you are kidding besides our own people? Have you ever looked inside one of our Menaions? We are *acutely* aware of the past and the nature of what separates us. You can corrupt some (many?) of our hierarchs (like in Florance), you can con some of our most ignorant folks (like the average modern well-meaning but ignorant “official orthodoxy” parishioner) and you can try to simply kill us all (like the Ustashe in Croatia or the Banderites in the Ukraine), but you will never succeed. Don’t you see it? The most decent thing you can do is repent from your heresies and return to the Church. If that is not an option, fine – then just leave us alone.
The Saker
@Andrew:he powers in Ukraine right now are all around the Timoshenko party, not Svoboda. The current powers that be are (…)”
Quite true. The Latins play a minor role in the current party in power. Most of them are really pretend-believers like most post-Soviet officials. Their only true religion is self-worship. But how did these guys appear? Where do they come from?
Fact one: the Ukraine is a Papist invention. The real creator and Godfather of the “Ukraine” is Pope Clement VIII. The prototype of Bandera is, of course, Josphat Kuntsevich, whom the Papacy considers as a SAINT for bleep’
s sake! This mass murdered is a Saint in Rome. So the Ukrainian ethnogenesis is *your baby*, your Golem, your Frankenstein. You created that monster and the very least you could do is to a) accept this fact and b) repent for it.
What is happening today is not the result of centuries of efforts by the Scientologists even of Turchinov is one of these freaks. You created the Ukraine, you created the Uniats – so have the courage and intellectual honesty to accept these facts and stop hiding behind the current puppet masters there and stop pretending like the Papacy is not only not prime criminal but that it is almost a benevolent, well-intentioned party. Just look at the ideology coming out of Latin Poland if you want to get a taste of the current attitude of the Papacy towards Russia and Orthodoxy is.
As for reconciliation or, more realistically, peaceful coexistence, the first and absolutely mandatory pre-condition for it is for the Latins to finally stop pretending, lying, mis-labeling, mis-representing and otherwise distorting the historical truth and at the very least fess up to it. No need to even apologize (what difference does an apology make to those murdered, tortured or deported?). Just fess up to the fact and then maybe there can be a courteous if cool coexistence. If not, then just leave us alone, forget about us, go and convert the millions of people in the West who have turned away from Christianity in utter disgust for what they have seen from the Papacy. You stick to “saints” like Kuntsevich or Jean-Paul “CIA” 2, and we will stick to Saint Photios the Great, Saint Mark of Ephesus, Saint Alexander Nevsky, Saint Gregory Palamas or the New Martyrs of Russia.
The Saker
@Where-Wolf, concerning interview with Evgeny Fedorov
-strongly assuming, Evgeny is referring to the Zionist-Masonic-matrix, when mentioning the Fifth Column. After all, most Russian oligarchs we ever heard of, are members of the tribe. If the tribe controls the economy, they must also control the political establishment to a large extend.
-here in this blog, we have reports of mass killings in eastern Ukraine, committed by the Nuland-mercs, whereas RT / RIA Novosti do not refer to these allegations at all… (if the mass killings are a fact indeed, then Evgeny’s assessment concerning MSM in Russia is fully correct)
-here in this blog we heard, that „Russian oligarchs“ are pushing hard for a direct Russian military intervention in Ukraine, which would nicely suit the western politics defined by AIPAC / PNAC. Didn’t we hear of such machinations before, understand Rothschild’s bank were financing at the same time war for both France and England, when they were adversaries…
-on this blog, most have a great deal of expectations towards Putin.. let’s hope, we will not be disapointed in the end, after all, didn’t Putin sign a law recently which criminalizes the questioning of the „findings“ of the Nuremberg trials and didn’t he support the official narrative of 9/11…
Caveman
To Saker and Nora,
Forgive my jumping into your conversation. As a protestant who grew-up amongst Catholics, my earliest recollection were neighborhood children chasing me (I was 4) yelling that I’d “die and go to hell” because I wasn’t Roman Catholic. Rest assured, it wasn’t an effective recruitment tool. It did give me a healthy aversion to “the priest-hood”. And turned-me-off of other Orthodox religions — as I erroneously associated them with Catholicism. I knew lots of kids who were educated by Jesuits. Jews/Jesuits both use casuistry as a “doctrinal tool”. Any religion that teaches deception as a tool for living is not following Christ, Truth. Anti-Christ = Anti-Truth. My sense of “doing right” is to follow Christ, Truth where-ever it leads.
Nora, your view of todays freedom of religion and inter-marriage is indeed the norm. I don’t (personally) view that dilution of Truth makes better humans or marriages for that matter. I too have “mixed-marriages” within my family. These are people I care about — and wish to see happy. But I don’t necessarily rejoice as they wander away from The Christ. We each get to choose. “…CHOOSE good, so that thou and thy seed may LIVE.”
AGS
Saker:
Now is not the time for hashing out understanding or differences between our Churches. I’m aware of what you think it is, and maybe sometime when things have calmed down, I’ll write you about my own views on these topics and we can discuss things in a civilized manner.
I will point out some points I think are incorrect. First, the unia in Galiacia is a result of the Union of Brest, which is a city in Belarus, and the prime movers of this were the Orthodox Bishops of Belarus, northern Ukraine (Kiev), and the Smolensk region of Russia. The unia involved the entire western region of Russia then occupied by the Polish-Lithuania Commonwealth, and was a result specifically of Polish royal pressure for religious uniformity in the state. Its adoption by the papacy was seen as a way to get Russia on the side of Rome, the thought being that all of Russia might be brought over eventually (given the conversion of Patriarch Ignatius, that was at least plausible), not to carve off a rump Ukraine apart from Russia. As you know, the Bishops of Lvov and Prezmysl in Galacia were not part of the Union of Brest, and their dioceses did not join with Rome until 1720. Similarly, the diocese of Mukhachevo in Transcarpathia did not join until 1646. So this is not the origin of Ukrainianism, unless you want to argue Brest, Pinsk, Lutsk, Vilnius,, and Minsk are Ukrainian. The original area of the unia returned to Orthodoxy in 1839 due to Russian imperial pressure and mostly remains Orthodox to this day (some Orthodox reverted again in 1905 after tolerance was decreed by Nicholas II).
The term Ukraine comes from the Cossacks of the Sich along the Dniepr between Kiev and Dniepropetrovsk, who appropriately thought of themselves on the border of Russia and Poland, not Galacia. Interestingly, this is the heartland of the current Ukrainian nonsense affecting Donbass and the source of its primary actors, as I pointed out. Galacians and Transcarpathians at that time and for much later called themselves Russkij and said they spoke Rusyn – Russians speaking (pidgin) Russian. It was for the Austrians, Poles, and Prussian Germans in the period from 1848 to 1945 to ignite the Ukrainian project, using the Galacians under their control as guinea pigs to see if a new people could be created that split the Russians and become a German colony permitting continued German settlement of the east and source of raw materials and laborers for the two German Empires. It was they who formalized Ukrainian language, orthography, and grammar and ensured it had its Polish overlay, and attempted to force identify these simple Russian peasants as “Ukrainians” like the Cossacks between the Dniepr and Don and instilled in them a hatred of Poles and Russians as oppressors. This project stretched on over a century, and only began to bear fruit for them in 1918 and later. Rusyns “discovered” they were Ukrainians in 1918 with the German puppet state, and this new identity and language slowly spread and took hold so that the Ruthenian (Russian) Greek Catholic Church took on the moniker Ukrainian after 1940 and adopted the Ukrainian tongue in worship in 1961. Its difficult for me to see how acts by the anti-Catholic German High Command are somehow to be blamed on the papcy. The relationship to the Catholics is in my view accidental because the project began after the reduction of the unia to Galacia and the Malorossie under Austrian governance to the same province – the Catholics were all they had to work with. Once the larger Ukrainian area was activated in the plan by the Germans in 1918, the emphasis from the Protestant West switched immediately to supporting schismatic Orthodox bodies (the Autocephalous Church in 1921 and Kiev Patriarchate in 1992) in the whole country, not spreading the unia, and it is these schismatic Orthodox in the lead of today’s persecution and nationalism, not Galacian or Transcarpathian Catholics.
AGS,
It’s an open conversation so please feel free to jump in — the more, the merrier! There was a whole lot of the kind of stuff you experienced when I was young too; it used to kind of amaze me sometimes, all the fighting — and for gosh sakes, my daughter got pushed over flat on her back by a Falwell follower who first told her she’d burn in Hell for not for not being Baptist, so I’m not saying it’s totally disappeared. (And it was very difficult sometimes convincing my children that God really doesn’t want us to hate people back.) But I don’t think it’s the norm anymore, and that’s really my point: we can outgrow it, while remaining steadfast in our own beliefs.
And I personally believe that this is one of the benefits of living in a pluralistic society like ours, not a melting pot but more of a stew — because you learn how to give and take, agree to disagree, etc. I.e., how to live together.
You and Saker probably won’t agree with me at all on this but I have my Truth, which I deeply believe, but I’m still okay with other people having theirs, even if it’s totally different from mine. Where I strenuously object is the point at which their acting on their truth causes harm to innocent people — to me that’s a sign it’s not a Truth at all. At least with adults; kids who are going to bully, will bully over just about anything — nasty, hurtful, but mainly a sign of their own unhappiness and insecurities.
Juliania said…
Far too extreme, Saker, in my opinion. You don’t do Dostoievski justice, for even his hero Alyosha objects to Ivan’s characterization that not all Roman Catholics are of this demonic nature. Indeed, the entire novel “The Brothers Karamazov” sets that story in the mind of an atheist (even though a lovable one.)
When asked about the terrible crimes committed by Jews, Alyosha was more circumspect. He refused to answer; an interesting contrast to his attitude towards other Christians. Zionist Jews have never forgiven Dostoevsky for Alyosha’s non-answer, which was an answer in and of itself.
The contrast in Alyosha’s attitude towards Catholics and Jews points to the distinction Dostoevsky wants to emphasize, I believe. I believe that he is pointing to Supremacy, specifically the Jewish kind which excludes the possibility of repentence and therefore redemption, that Dostoevsky wants to single out as the fundamental source of evil.
I think Saker has consciously or unconsciously made the same distinction. Alyosha can not make the distinction because he represents Christ.
@Andrew: I have to say that in a way I, well maybe not admire, but I am impressed with your ability to with slight touch here and there to basically completely change the nature/meaning of facts. Almost every sentence in what you write contains a fallacy, usually assumed but not really spelled out. Like this sentence: Its adoption by the papacy was seen as a way to get Russia on the side of Rome, the thought being that all of Russia might be brought over eventually (given the conversion of Patriarch Ignatius, that was at least plausible).
So what you are saying is that the Papacy did not want to create a Union, it was really the Poles, and that this was not a way to carve out a Ukraine out of Russia, but to get all of Russia. What a noble and altruistic project indeed! Amazing. Then you refer to “Patriarch Ignatius”. Do you mean the guy who performed the coronation of the False Dimitri – a heretic and a fraud? Wow, some company the Latins are keeping and placing their hopes on. You also forget to mention that his “conversion” was a result of Polish military intervention, the very same Poles who starved to death the REAL Patriarch Germogen. Beautiful company indeed, and all that “ad majorem Dei gloriam” no doubt…
I won’t try to convince you of anything, because you *know* the truth.
Just humor me: are you a Jesuit or are you linked the PIO? You sure sound like one of their graduates :-)
The Saker
@Nora:You and Saker probably won’t agree with me at all on this but I have my Truth, which I deeply believe, but I’m still okay with other people having theirs, even if it’s totally different from mine.
Dear Nora, it’s not that I “disagree” – I do believe you when you say that this is your belief. But I will just point out that taking one’s desires for reality is “magical thinking”, it’s delusional. If my reality says that 2+2=3, that the earth if flat or that pedophilia is healthy and natural it does not make it so. In fact, there are very few things out there that we get to truly shape. We can’t even change the composition of a single drop of water, why would we suddenly have the capability to share the Truth?! And would it be the Truth if we got to shape it? And if your truth is different than mine, which one is the Truth? Can a Truth even be posited in such a context? Bertrand Russel once wrote that “God make man in His image and man returned Him the favor”. Don’t you feel that this very much applies to those who created their own truth with their own “god”? Also consider this. If God is God, then He is the Creator. Right? Ok. But then that makes you his creature. But then how is it that you, His creature, get to “create Him” by choosing your own truth?! We can’t even cure the common flu – how could we hope to “create God”?!
Truly there are only two options with God: to accept Him or reject Him. All else immediately turns into magical thinking, indifference or delusion. I submit to you that reality is something objective and not the sum product of our mostly mistaken ideas thereof.
So Nora I cannot disagree with your thesis simply because it contains so many core internal contradictions that it really cannot make sense and thus cannot be really evaluated.
I hope that this make sense to you.
Kind regards,
The Saker
Andrew said…
Now is not the time for hashing out understanding or differences between our Churches.
The differences between our churches is vast as the Saker briefly touched on.
I’m just sick & tired of reading about my fellow co-religionists being attacked, murdered, being forced to convert to another religion at the point of a sword or gun, our churches being destroyed, etc., all because we happen to be Orthodox.
I accidently posted this on another thread.
@American Kulak
If Dr. Pieczenik’s ‘limited hangout’ theory is true, and Snowden really is the messenger for John Brennan’s CIA knocking its old IC rival down a peg or two, then Putin is doing CIA a favor by keeping Snowden safe and sound where only somewhat sympathetic journalists can reach him.
Excellent response. Whatever Fedorov intends, it does not answer the deepest questions about Putin. If nothing else, Putin is pragmatic.
Since the CIA is the enemy of the NSA it is possible that he and the CIA are cooperating. There is considerable circumstantial evidence to pointing to this possibility. It is also a clue as to the vehement competition between various factions within the US intelligence community.
Is it possible that the CIA and FSB are allied? I think it is.
This is a very different ball game if Putin has access to operational information provided by the CIA.
Mikhail II,
Yes, re: Jesuits. I’m feeling guilty for not having spoken up too. My father was Jesuit-educated and their particular combination of logic, rigor, values and compassion really made him into the person he was; I got it second-hand and it formed me also. It’s funny how much they changed, too: they *were* the Counter-Reformation, The Church Militant, then somehow got people-oriented (incredible stuff in S. America, just incredible) until what looks to me like reactionary and very racist Irish clergy and a frankly reactionary Polish pope looking to undo Vatican II and then some, basically shut them down. But in that middle period, at least here, they were a definite source for good!
Saker,
I’m going to respectfully disagree with you, because I don’t think Latin Catholics knowingly lie. I really don’t. They believe what they were taught; most people do. And most leaders teach us what they think we should believe, though I’m seriously doubting the average parish priest is really up on all of the uglier parts of church history; same goes for the average Protestant clergyman. Depending on the seminary faculty, it’s quite possible the people teaching them weren’t aware of these things either. Most important though, when a person really believes something with all their heart and soul, it is a very difficult, painful process to examine it. So mostly we don’t.
We’ve still got to learn to live together though. This planet of ours just keeps shrinking! :~)
@Andrew:
Meezer wrote:I’m just sick & tired of reading about my fellow co-religionists being attacked, murdered, being forced to convert to another religion at the point of a sword or gun, our churches being destroyed, etc., all because we happen to be Orthodox.
And I agree. Stop trying to murder, convert or silence us. Can you just pretty please simply leave us alone and forget about us? If you really must, we prefer that you try to convert us by terror and force, but at least stop lying and constantly mis-representing everything. Your fairy tales are deeply offensive to us.
The Saker
Saker,
I’m still chewing on it, as you know, but if I had to make an everlasting statement of faith today, it’d be Orthodox Christianity. Saying that feels a little premature, but I’m basically there — and it’s a pretty big shift, based on what I too see as Truth. I.e., I can’t argue with you about faith, or Truth, because I agree with you on all of it.
But one shift I’m not going to make is to impose my religious beliefs on others, however fallacious I find them to be. I guess bc I really do like living in a pluralistic, hodge-podge society where people are truly free to make their own choices, but to me it’s very important to live and let live. So I’ll state what I believe, but then let the other person do it too — about beliefs. Hopefully I can make a few points, but what they do with it is up to them. Facts, otoh — they’re another matter entirely. And what was done by Kuntsevich et. al., for whatever reasons, was just flat-out wrong. But to me there really is a distinction there — and to you there is not. I’m not going to ask you to agree with me, but I will admit I’m kind of hoping you’ll see my point. ;~)
@Nora:I’m going to respectfully disagree with you, because I don’t think Latin Catholics knowingly lie. I really don’t.
Agreed. Some do, some don’t. Remember that that Latins split their Church into two categories: a teaching Church and a taught Church (though most modern Latins do not know about this aspect of Papist ecclesiology). So the “taught Church” ( I am not sure that this is the correct translation into English – I was taught about this in French who say “L’Eglise enseignante et l’Eglise enseignée”). And even in the “teaching Church” I suspect that many are simply repeating what they were taught. But Andrew knows his stuff, that clearly shows. So his misrepresentations are fully deliberate and carefully phrased, Jesuit style.
But, yes, of course, most don’t know. How many Latins today can correctly explain what “Immaculate Conception” means? Ask around your Latin friends and neighbors? How many know when the dogma of Papal infallibility was adopted. 99.9999 don’t even know what the word “matins” mean. One of my neighbors who, listen to this, taught religion in a Latin school once ask me what Orthodoxy believes (yup, she did) to which I gave a short “its basically Patristic Christianity” to which she said “we are also Patristic, we also have priests”. I was awed. That is a teacher of religion in a school. Frankly it is very very rare to meet a real Latin nowadays. I was fortunate to have met quite a few hardcore Latins in Europe – folks who were fluent in Latin and who were thoroughly trained in polemics with “Photian Schismatics” (aka Orthodox Christians) and this is why Andrew’s discourse is so familiar to me. I even had the chance to visit Econe, in the mountains of Switzerland were the now diseased Bishop Lefebvre was based and I visited several of their parishes. Now these folks were like Andrew, they knew their stuff well. But the modern variety? They know nothing about their own theology, nevermind anybody else’s! Furthermore, the little they know they don’t really believe. Ask them if a) they know in which circumstances the Pope speaks infallibility and in which he does not. 99% cannot even answer that basic question. Then ask them if they believe the Pope is infallible and roughly 90% will say that they “do not agree” with that, but they still consider themselves “Roman Catholics”. I speak from personal experience here, I have interviewed (more or less informally) hundred of Latins and most of them truly know nothing except that they love the Pope and that the Church of Rome is “the true Church”, but don’t ask them how they know that – because you will get the glazed stare back with a vacancy sign in the eyes. They won’t understand the question.
Modern Latin Christianity stands for more or less nothing, at least in the West. In Latin America and Africa there is still a lot of sincere piety, but it is also a very primitive, almost ignorant, kind of piety. Good people who believe in the morals/ethics of Christianity and who believe that Christ was indeed God or the Son of God (Christology is not really their forte, as you can imagine).
So, again, all of what I write here which sounds like it is directed at those who call themselves Roman-Catholics is not in any way directed at them. It is directed at the institution of the Papacy which, yes, I truly loathe, more than rabbinical Judaism or Wahabi Islam in fact because these two at least are honest about their hatred for the Church. I prefer an enemy who shows his face to one who pretends to love you.
Kind regards,
The Saker
@Caveman
-here in this blog, we have reports of mass killings in eastern Ukraine, committed by the Nuland-mercs, whereas RT / RIA Novosti do not refer to these allegations at all… (if the mass killings are a fact indeed, then Evgeny’s assessment concerning MSM in Russia is fully correct)
Here’s my question: given Putin’s recent move to replace Svetlana Mironyuk with Dmitry Kiselyov at RT/RIA Novosti, do you think it is reasonable to assume that he has a firm grip on the media in Russia?
I think so. Putin would not leave such an important institution in the hands of his enemies. It is reasonable to conclude that the reporting in Russia is focused on Putin’s (or Russia’s) needs, not those of defenders in the east. Federov may be frustrated by Putin’s percieved abandonment of Novrossians or he may be exploiting one his weaknesses. I’m inclined to think it’s the latter although this still doesn’t tell us if he (Federov) is doing it on behalf of external forces.
To the person quoting Tyahnibok’s unexpected pro-separatist comment.
Tyahnibok has been captured on a tapped phone call being very clever looking ahead and covering his ass in case of failure. Same thing may be here – he is looking ahead and trying to appear fair in case there is a danger for him in the future from the rebels.
Have you noticed that the commander of the Vostok Battalion is Alexander Khodokovsky (Александр Ходаковский), previously the commander of the “Alpha” anti-terror unit of the Ukrainian SBU.
Komsomolskaya Pravda visits the Battalion in Donetsk.
href=”http://www.kp.ru/daily/26238.7/3120083/
Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTjkTt2JoGs
Speaking of Jesuits-
Catholic Jesuit Superior resigns
Saker:
So what you are saying is that the Papacy did not want to create a Union, it was really the Poles, and that this was not a way to carve out a Ukraine out of Russia, but to get all of Russia.
As you know, the Papacy was and is always interested in a Union, but being the institution it is, its perspective is a Union on the scale of the entire eastern Church, which it tried at both Florence and Lyons on the level of Patriarchal relations, since that is really the level of the problems between the Churches – the division is not on the level fo the laity or the priesthood.
The mini-Union of Brest was as I understand it a Polish initiative accepted by the Papacy (after six years) once it thought about it and realized the opportunities this presented in terms of a piecemeal approach in terms of its goals. Had it been a papal initiative from the outset, there would have been no reason for it to be delayed from 1590 to 1596 while it awaited approval in Rome.
Then you refer to “Patriarch Ignatius”. Do you mean the guy who performed the coronation of the False Dimitri – a heretic and a fraud?
Yes, you have the right guy. Of course he is discredited as you state by the Russian Church seeing as he backed the wrong horse for Emperor and then joining Rome. Such is the way of the world with the Church – the east suffered from constant interference by the state in its affairs, with a seemingly endless carousel of patriarchs at times of imperial intrigue in Constantinople and Moscow, while the west suffered from constant interference by the Church in the affairs of states with the lack of a real imperial center.
The only cure of this will be when Russia accepts its imperial destiny to guide the world in Christian governance and relieves the Roman Church of the need to be involved in the affairs of the world, allowing the Pope to return to being primus and Patriarch of the West, which will permit east and west to be one again. I am sure you also understand this natural order of the world. As long as Russia resists its geopolitical Christian mandate, chaos and strife will continue in Christendom. There is of course a timetable for this, and while we wait for it, we must endure what comes.
You also forget to mention that his “conversion” was a result of Polish military intervention, the very same Poles who starved to death the REAL Patriarch Germogen.
I would attribute his joining Rome to his own volition, seeing as he held to it until his death. He was certainly free to go where he wanted in the later years of his life and could easily have returned to Russia and renounced his personal union if it was done to him by force.
Just humor me: are you a Jesuit or are you linked the PIO? You sure sound like one of their graduates
I mentioned before I am just a simple layman of NW European descent. I have never had anything to do with the Jesuits and don’t know what the PIO is. My education was entirely secular. My little bit of learning in these things is entirely from self-study at my local university and seminary library, and from books obtained from and discussions with uniate Priests and the Holy Trinity Russian monastery in Jordanville, NY.
james,
The pedophilia scandal is bad enough. This stuff — I sincerely hope — is stretching it beyond the limits of credulity:
“Pope Francis’ bizarre remarks during last week’s Mid East tour that ‘Sex abuse is like a Satanic Mass’ reveals that he understands that the rape of children within his church are linked to Satanic rituals in which he himself participates” the prosecutor said from Brussels. “We consider the Pope’s remarks a tacit admission of guilt and more evidence of his involvement in this monstrous crime.”
A Catholic Jesuit Order called the “Magisterial Privilege” dated Dec. 25 1967 concerning the Black Mass has been provided to the court from Vatican archives. The document was said to show that every new Pope was required to participate in Ninth Circle Satanic Black Mass ritual sacrifices of newborn children, including drinking their blood.
“Vatican documents clearly indicate that for centuries the Jesuits had a premeditated plan to ritually murder kidnapped newborn babies and then consume their blood,” the Chief Prosecutor told the court. “The plan was born of a twisted notion to derive spiritual power from the lifeblood of the innocent, thereby assuring political stability of the Papacy in Rome. These acts are not only genocidal but systemic and institutionalized in nature. Since at least 1773, they appear to have been performed by the Roman Catholic Church, Jesuits and every Pope.”
The truth is bad enough. It doesn’t need to be embroidered with hatred and conspiracy — Native American kids were tortured and abused by Catholics and Protestants, secular and religious, at those damned schools. And pedophile priests (and ministers) are vile, nasty people. But do they really drink blood? Uh… Also too, I checked out one of the references in that piece, to ABC News, and the Vatican exorcist was not at all referring to Black Masses or this Ninth Circle Satanic Black Mass ritual sacrifice of newborn children. I personally think these people are pretty sick. And the guy’s being tried in absentia and hasn’t yet stepped down, he’s just making plans so that he can. Finally, given the glacial pace at which the Vatican has “dealt” with the pedophilia scandal, I’m also thinking that if these papers “from the Vatican archives” , and the court in which they are being presented, are both legit, our scandalicious,(certainly non-Catholic) owned and operated media would be all over it like white on rice. Either that or the accusers would mysteriously disappear. So I’m thinking these are just anti-Catholic conspiratorial folks..
So the “taught Church” ( I am not sure that this is the correct translation into English – I was taught about this in French who say “L’Eglise enseignante et l’Eglise enseignée”).
I think the phrase you are looking for is The Church Teaching and the Church Learning.
But Andrew knows his stuff, that clearly shows. So his misrepresentations are fully deliberate and carefully phrased, Jesuit style.
Saker, if I misrepresent something it is only from my own lack of knowledge, and is nothing intentional or Jesuitical. I am always interested in being corrected when I am wrong. Please stop saying I am anything more than a simple layman with a little bit of wits and knowledge and piety. I am not.
That is a teacher of religion in a school. Frankly it is very very rare to meet a real Latin nowadays.
This ignorance in my Church is very real and appalling, I’ll freely admit it. I do my little part against it by teaching 4th Grade Catechism at my parish.
thoroughly trained in polemics with “Photian Schismatics” (aka Orthodox Christians) and this is why Andrew’s discourse is so familiar to me.
I don’t agree at all with the “Photian Schism” interpretation of history, which became very popular only in the 1800’s. In my view, there has only been a true schism since 1729, when the Holy Office forbid intercommunion between Catholics and Orthodox, something which occurred regulary up until that time because both sides of the Church viewed the laity seeking the sacraments as innocent bystanders of the policies and programs of their heirarchs.
It is directed at the institution of the Papacy which, yes, I truly loathe, more than rabbinical Judaism or Wahabi Islam in fact because these two at least are honest about their hatred for the Church. I prefer an enemy who shows his face to one who pretends to love you.
Saker, I entirely understand your view and would encourage fellow Roman Catholics wishing to understand what he is saying to read “The Banished Heart: Origins of Heteropraxis in the Catholic Church” by Dr. Geoffrey Hull, which will fully explain not only what Saker is talking about regarding papal arrogance but also why you yourselves have lost all of your Latin traditions.
As to the papal institution, it has suffered three distinct phases of attack whereby unworthy occupants of the See have driven it ever further from what it should be. First was its abandonment by Constantinople in the time 740 to 1100, where it was left to sink or swim on its own instead of being part of the Christian Empire of Romania ruled from Constantinople leading to its delusions of imperial grandeur. The second was the humanistic corruption of the rennaisance from around 1450 to 1550 with its capture by the occult underground gnostic/pagan forces symbolized by the erection of the Egyptian Obelisk in its courtyard and manifested by the unworthy Borgia Popes being enthroned. The third has been during the past century, with an outright assault and takeover by organized Jewry and the Italian Masons intent on wrecking the liturgy and instruction of the faithful and submitting the Roman See to the world rule of the Atlantacists. The Roman Church has never wanted to emphasize the obvious Petrine teaching in St. Luke 12.41-48, but there it is as a warning to the Popes regarding their behavior over the past 1300 years.
Ecumenical “dialog of love” does today
This is a grotesque waste of time, as Pope Paul VI admitted in the early 1970’s after only a few years of it.
The human model for what must occur is in the Photian Council of 879/880 where the Bishops of the Church of God came together as one and cast off the division imposed by the devil upon them and rushed to embrace each other as brothers.
The theological foundations for what must occur were set down by St. Gregory Palamas in his theological work on the uncreated energies of God, where he painstakingly explained how this facet of theology can correctly explain what the Latins strain at through the most controversial latin word filioque. This same aspect of his theology is waiting and ready to serve to resolve the controversy on purgatory, grace, and the immaculate conception, all of which are directly related, and all of which with the filioque stem from trying to explain the faith to my own people, the Germans, in words and idioms that they could understand.
The final foundation is for the Pope personally to step back and end the confusion of his role between being Primus in the Church and being Patriarch of the West, and also to relent in usurping the ordinary local jurisdiction of dioceses in the west by his ordinary Patriarchal jurisdiction. The Pope is doing too much as long as he need a coadjutor Bishop to actually administer his own diocese of Rome.
@Andrew:Saker, if I misrepresent something it is only from my own lack of knowledge, and is nothing intentional or Jesuitical. I am always interested in being corrected when I am wrong. Please stop saying I am anything more than a simple layman with a little bit of wits and knowledge and piety. I am not.
Ok. Put this way I am obliged to give you the benefit of the doubt if only because I don’t personally know you. So I will assume that you are truly and honestly pursuing the truth. I do see that your knowledge of history and theology easily puts you in no less that the top 0.1% of Latin Christians but I also have to admit that this is not ground enough to accuse you of deliberate dishonesty. I will therefore change my approach to you and assume true sincerity. My next post to you will therefore be written with the assumption that you really care, sincerely and truly, about the truth. I don’t know when I will have to write this, but stay tuned, its in the pipeline and, barring any big developments in the Donbass, it will be sometime in the first half of the upcoming week.
Kind regards,
The Saker
(1 of 2)
Nora, thanks for your comment. I’ve replied with comments of my own within your text copied below. It seemed the easiest way to do it.
Nora wrote (02 June, 2014 03:51)
james,
The pedophilia scandal is bad enough. This stuff — I sincerely hope — is stretching it beyond the limits of credulity:
It is indeed way beyond most peoples credulity. But that doesn’t mean it is not true. Wholesale raping of children by Catholic priests was once beyond most peoples credulity.
“Pope Francis’ bizarre remarks during last week’s Mid East tour that ‘Sex abuse is like a Satanic Mass’ reveals that he understands that the rape of children within his church are linked to Satanic rituals in which he himself participates” the prosecutor said from Brussels. “We consider the Pope’s remarks a tacit admission of guilt and more evidence of his involvement in this monstrous crime.”
A Catholic Jesuit Order called the “Magisterial Privilege” dated Dec. 25 1967 concerning the Black Mass has been provided to the court from Vatican archives. The document was said to show that every new Pope was required to participate in Ninth Circle Satanic Black Mass ritual sacrifices of newborn children, including drinking their blood.
“Vatican documents clearly indicate that for centuries the Jesuits had a premeditated plan to ritually murder kidnapped newborn babies and then consume their blood,” the Chief Prosecutor told the court. “The plan was born of a twisted notion to derive spiritual power from the lifeblood of the innocent, thereby assuring political stability of the Papacy in Rome. These acts are not only genocidal but systemic and institutionalized in nature. Since at least 1773, they appear to have been performed by the Roman Catholic Church, Jesuits and every Pope.”
It is still an odd thing to say out of the blue; linking sexual abuse to a satanic mass. I guess some Freudian therapists would have a few things to say about it.
Priests raping children, though, is indeed a satanic thing to do, don’t you think? And Church hierarchy protecting the pedophiles and furthering their pedophilic career by sending them off to yet another unsuspecting parish with more unsuspecting parents and children is also pretty satanic behaviour.
We know that satanic ritual abuse goes on from many court cases and if you agree that men presenting themselves as representatives of Jesus raping children who are given into their care by trusting parents is satanic behaviour, then it isn’t really much of a leap to connect the two. From this perspective, I think it would be hard to make a case that it doesn’t happen.
The truth is bad enough. It doesn’t need to be embroidered with hatred and conspiracy — Native American kids were tortured and abused by Catholics and Protestants, secular and religious, at those damned schools. And pedophile priests (and ministers) are vile, nasty people. But do they really drink blood? Uh…
Yes, I’m afraid some people do. There is plenty of evidence of it from court cases. Plus, from the writings of Aleister Crowley, an avowed satanist.
(to be continued)
(continued 2 of 2)
Also too, I checked out one of the references in that piece, to ABC News, and the Vatican exorcist was not at all referring to Black Masses or this Ninth Circle Satanic Black Mass ritual sacrifice of newborn children.
I could not find a link in the article to an ABC report. Did it come from one of the linked articles, in turn?
I personally think these people are pretty sick.
Who are you referring to?
And the guy’s being tried in absentia and hasn’t yet stepped down, he’s just making plans so that he can. Finally, given the glacial pace at which the Vatican has “dealt” with the pedophilia scandal, I’m also thinking that if these papers “from the Vatican archives” , and the court in which they are being presented, are both legit, our scandalicious,(certainly non-Catholic) owned and operated media would be all over it like white on rice.
You would think so, wouldn’t you? However, do you recall that the Zionists were fulsome in their praise of Bergoglio at his election as Pope Francis? Things seemed to change in the media with his election in contrast with their attitude to Ratzinger. Perhaps some sort of deal was put in place. In Australia, the press were hounding Cardinal George Pell but now have backed right off.
Either that or the accusers would mysteriously disappear.
Some witnesses have disappeared in similar cases. A link was provided to confirm that.
So I’m thinking these are just anti-Catholic conspiratorial folks..
It would be a mistake to write these people off as cranks. They have amongst their number judges and lawyers and ex ministers. They also have an impressive track record of investigating similar crimes and unearthing evidence. Links were provided in the article plus you might take a look around at the site Hidden from History: The Canadian Holocaust
http://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/
You have prodded me to write up a post on this and related issues, Nora. I will endeavour to get it up later this week. If you want to keep an eye out for that, you will find my blog by clicking on my name at the top of this comment.
Andrew and Saker,
Your conversation, as it evolves, is not just fascinating, but really wonderful. Please don’t stop — there’s so much I don’t know! ;~)
james,
Any cleric raping a child is by definition Satanic. Crowley likewise. (Did you know there’s a reasonable probability, btw, that he was Barbara Bush’s father?) And that picture of Ratzinger was nauseating. UGH. I’m not sure where I picked up on that ABC link, I just know it was footnote #2 (!) wherever it was; I thought it was the original URL but maybe not. But there was a lot of supposed Satanic stuff here, what, maybe twenty or thirty years ago, and it pretty much just fizzled. Not to say it doesn’t happen, I’m sure it does (sick, evil people can be VERY sick and VERY evil), but to accuse the Vatican of drinking blood as a requirement of high office? I’d have to see those documents and *know* they’re legit before I’ll go along with that.
And james, I already have your blog bookmarked; I like it. And I want to tell you, and everyone else, your Sherlock Holmes saga is every bit as superb as anything by Conan Doyle — maybe even better! I can’t tell you how avidly I read it, and I’m just sitting here salivating for more… (hint, hint)
Dearest Nora,
“and for gosh sakes, my daughter got pushed over flat on her back by a Falwell follower who first told her she’d burn in Hell for not for not being Baptist, so I’m not saying it’s totally disappeared.”
Dearest Nora,
It is so socking that only thing Christianity emphasis is Hell and how bad a human being is. I didn’t understand it until I landed in USA.
It shocked me that Christians consider Old Testaments to be their book and to be True Word of God. If one takes a look at the OT, one is shocked to see how bad the mankind is. Even the Prophets who are supposed to be role models, are most of the times drunk raping their daughters. David breaks four Major Commandments out of the 10 Major Commandments, and then God punished 70,000 other innocent beings.
Then in USA for 15 years, I was constant bombarded with Hell. Mercy of God was never preached.
Even when one listen to War Pigs by Black Sabbath, one finds at the end of song, the Christian’s God being in a pickle. Being between a hammer and rock. Christian’s God has two choices:
1. Either being a Merciful God, to forgive the War Pigs.
2. Or send them to Hell and increase the Kingdom of Lord Lucifer the Greek/Roman.
I believe I am like Saker, and I understand where is coming from, being a minority like the Shia. He is very tolerant when it comes to individuals. However:
1. The minority should join the majority, even though the majority has been wrong and still is wrong.
2. Under melting pot and secularism, the religion is thrown out of the window.
3. Quran tells us that a blind and seen are not same, they are different but equal. A man and a woman is not same, they are different but equal. In fact, if one read the Quran properly, woman is a better creation than man. The status of mother is much, much higher than the status of father. God’s Mercy comes from the womb of mother, where the life begins. God is Rabbi just like mother, both nurtures, nourishes, sustains their pups.
4. God is Truth, no doubt. And, 2+2= has to be 4 and not 3. But 2+7-5 = is also 4 too. Both ways are Truth, one is shorter and the other is longer. No one way is the only correct way. To approach God (Truth) we can approach him in different ways, but in Truthful way.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Dear Nora,
If one needs to understand the psychology of Anglo-Zionist, one needs to read TaNaKh (Old Testament). Even the Prophets who are supposed to be role models are conniving scheming bastards. These are chosen people of God, and in that case how we mere mortals are to act.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Nora,
I can’t vouch for the authenticity of the document alleging that all popes have to drink blood as a requirement of taking the office, of course. But I certainly wouldn’t discount it given the track record of the people making the allegation. A wild as it may sound, if they say they have the document i am more inclined to believe them than not.
The church officials, on the other hand, also have a track record which would lead me to accept the truth of the allegation as well. Time will tell.
I read about Crowley’s paternity and find it quite likely. It would explain Barbara’s “beautiful mind”!
The Sherlock Holmes saga is indeed beautifully written but I can’t take credit for it. It is written by Winter Patriot himself and I am not he.
The Winter Patriot Community site is, as the name suggests, a community blog with other writers including Winter Patriot and myself. I know it can be confusing. Right at the moment, I happen to be the most prolific there (it varies from time to time) so it can look like that I am Winter. But I’m not, alas :)
Winter is taking a sabbatical at the moment die to health reasons but hopes to resume his series before too long. It is an extremely clear look into the workings of the security state and is worthy of being made into a book, in my opinion.
“Winter is taking a sabbatical at the moment die to health reasons”
Goodness me! That should read due to health reasons. I hasten to add that Winter is not on deaths door; thank God :)
Mohamed,
Please understand me. Maybe I was too loose in my language when I referred to other people’s “truths” — it’s actually a fairly common phrase and what it means is “what other people *believe* to be true. I hope both you and Saker know enough about me at this point to know that I’m a pretty factual person, and I do believe. Ergo, facts, data, evidence, Truth are incredibly important to me — I’m anything but relativistic!
But I’m also quite willing to let other people — whom I’m hardly going to convince anyhow, however hard I try — live their lives as they see fit, with whatever erroneous beliefs they may have, as long as they don’t actually harm anyone else. I grew up in this kind of society and I like it — for all my criticism, there are still good parts of it, especially the whole melange of people who worked hard and despite all the bad stuff, managed to build something decent even if it got lost along the way. And the cornerstone of that, one thing we got right right from the beginning, imo, was confessional tolerance, freedom of religion. There’s plenty of room here for genuine Christians to be genuine Christians — Saker is, me too. For Muslims, unfortunately, at least since 9/11, that’s not so much the case although plenty of people still manage to live here in Islam despite all the current fears and hatred. But I’m perfectly willing to let people whose religious views I find seriously mistaken worship and believe as they see fit — it’s between them and God, after all — He’s the final arbiter, emphatically not me!
What I’m basically saying is what you said here: “God is Truth, no doubt. And, 2+2= has to be 4 and not 3. But 2+7-5 = is also 4 too. Both ways are Truth, one is shorter and the other is longer. No one way is the only correct way. To approach God (Truth) we can approach him in different ways, but in Truthful way.”
james,
I did think you were Winter Patriot! Oops! Well, it’s a really good blog anyhow, so congratulations for all you’re doing for it. ;~) And please extend him my best wishes for a good solid recovery — and yes, it ABSOLUTELY should be a book. How he put all that together, more Conan Doyle than Conan Doyle without descending *at all* into parody or excess, I’ll never know. But it is a true masterpiece!
I don’t ordinarily like to comment to anyone other than Saker, it just encourages trolls and crazies. When he mentioned Uniats and Jesuits, however, I thought my personal experience with different types of Uniats might be relevant to the Ukraine. I also (imprudently) wanted to say a good word for Jesuits, who’ve gotten a bad rap for casuistry, which simply means deciding a case on its merits, rather than by some sweeping rule. And I thereby opened Pandora’s box.
This blood-drinking nonsense comes from the one-man blog of a defrocked Canadian minister (Protestant, not Cabinet), who styles himself “The International Tribunal into Crimes of Church and State” (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/International_Tribunal_into_Crimes_of_Church_and_State). He apparently makes it up out of the whole cloth.
Any mention of the Catholic Church will bring out such craziness. It is so much bigger than any other entity, and has lasted so much longer, that it is a natural target. As Chesterton and Belloc termed it, it is “The Thing,” — something completely sui generis, more like a nation state than a religious body. Those of us on the inside recognize how bad it has been at times, witness Pope Alexander VI, also Pius IX (probably clinically insane). We believe, however, that it was founded by Our Lord at Pentecost, who promised to be with us while the world lasts, so we hope for the best. Many of Saker’s criticisms are well founded. Some that I consider minor I could refute if I had the time and patience, but I value his blog, insight, and good will too highly.
The dogs barks, but the caravan moves on.
Dearest Nora,
“What I’m basically saying is what you said here: “God is Truth, no doubt. And, 2+2= has to be 4 and not 3. But 2+7-5 = is also 4 too. Both ways are Truth, one is shorter and the other is longer. No one way is the only correct way. To approach God (Truth) we can approach him in different ways, but in Truthful way.””
I totally agree dearest sister! :)
And, don’t let anyone tell you otherwise, Americans are greatest people on earth. I am married to a WASP from Stickville, USA for the last 39 years (one month short).
Having said that, being a Semite and a Muslim, I don’t understand Lord Lucifer the Greek/Roman Lord. Do you?
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Andrew, somehow I get the impression that your position can be expressed as the following: “I wish desperately to be an Orthodox, because I really think only there still is not allowed ‘a different Gospel’ to be teached, but just I am not able to give up the Pope”. I respect your torment, but it’s a non-sequitur.
Saker, apologies not to have come here sooner.
I am sorry you were saddened by my comment, as I gave it in the gentlest way I could.
You make a distinction between individuals and institutions which frankly puzzles me. The institution seems to be an amalgam of belief plus historical crimes against humanity. The individual may or may not participate in both. (Some comments here give ignorance as an extenuating factor.)
As an institution, Orthodoxy itself can’t be held blameless. Horrible things were done to iconographers, for instance, in the 8th or 9th century. And when that happened, it was the Roman church which gave sanctuary to iconographers and even preserved some of the precious paintings – outside of St. Catherine’s Monastery. Horrible things happened even in the reign of Nicholas II, whose tragic end has me questioning the sainthood many of my Orthodox friends have proclaimed.
We can disagree on these things. Orthodox can disagree on these things. We don’t have infallibility as part of our belief system, our institutional system if you like. We have to think and relate to our Holy and Catholic (we always pray for that) Church with discernment.
Our earthly institutions, it does seem to me, cannot any of them be held up as pure representations of the heavenly Jerusalem. But that doesn’t mean the latter doesn’t exist, and heaven does touch earth from time to time – since the birth of Christ, in our faith, it does.
As he told the Samaritan woman – neither on your mountain nor in Jerusalem – and to me, for the Orthodox, neither in any flawed earthly institution, (close to heaven though it may come!) but the spirit instilled in the hearts and minds of believers – there it is; there it flourishes.
Perhaps you are sad because you now think I am not Orthodox. I assure you, I am. I truly believe it has all the answers and is a beautiful, beautiful faith to be a part of. I thank God every day for bringing me to it.
@juliania:Horrible things were done to iconographers, for instance, in the 8th or 9th century. And when that happened, it was the Roman church which gave sanctuary to iconographers and even preserved some of the precious paintings – outside of St. Catherine’s Monastery.
If you are referring to the actions of the iconoclasts, then let me remind that they were not Orthodox but heretics while Rome, at the time was Orthodox. So all your examples illustrates is that heretics persecuted the Orthodox for their beliefs while the Orthodox gave them refuge in those parts of the world which the heretics did not control.
What else is new?
This is exactly the situation in the Ukraine.
QED.
Kind regards,
The Saker
To Where-wolf at 21:14:
“When asked about the terrible crimes committed by Jews, Alyosha was more circumspect. He refused to answer; an interesting contrast to his attitude towards other Christians.”
Apologies – I’m not sure what passage you are describing here. I will say, though, that I love “The Brothers Karamazov” above all other novels, and Dostoievski for writing it. The Russian series, while very good, did not do justice to the Orthodox parts of it, as perhaps nothing but reading and discussing would do. Here’s a bit from the center of the novel, the elder, Father Zosima’s sayings:
“Fathers and teachers, I ask myself, ‘What is hell?’ And I answer thus: ‘the suffering of being no longer able to love.’ Once in infinite existence, measured neither by time nor by space, a certain spiritual being, through his appearance on earth, was granted the ability to say to himself ‘I am and I love…'”
What I’m basically saying is what you said here: “God is Truth, no doubt. And, 2+2= has to be 4 and not 3. But 2+7-5 = is also 4 too. Both ways are Truth, one is shorter and the other is longer. No one way is the only correct way.
================================
Logic needs to be approached carefully, because its rules are merciless and mandatory.
You can very well choose both ways to reach “4”, in fact infinite ways are able to get there, but you MUST get there, to “4”, not “5” nor “11” nor any other of the countless fancies devisable by the vanity of the human mind.
The Truth is one and is Christ! I came to the Truth on a different way than, say, the Saker, but we both got there. Almost any of us had his own way to get there, to Christ, but there is only one Truth and your way MUST take you there to be legitimate, to be true.
If your way lead you elsewhere, to Buddha, Sai Baba, Darwin or whatever, then in your case it’s 2+3=5 and 2+7-1=8; and no matter what combination (way) you use the outcome is never the right answer, the Truth. It’s another thing.
In short, every way is good provided that the outcome is ALWAYS the same, “4”, because ONE is the Truth. “4” is equal only to “4”!
If you get anything else, well, you have a “non-4”.
If that’s okay for you, it’s fine for us too.
The Lord did never force anyone.
Ah, Saker, that word never ever was spoken in my church. To me, you see, that word has Grand Inquisitorial overtones.
Though it is my understanding that in Rome there was not, even then, the affinity with icons that exists in Orthodox practice. They did not see iconographers as other than artists, illustrators of sacred texts, so it was more an accidental occurrence than at Mount Sinai where the Orthodox consideration was kept unbroken.
But truly, I am not trying to attack you, just telling about a different strain of Russian Orthodoxy (which two different strains were present in Russian history as I understand it) so people can know about it. I came to it through Dostoievski, and I agree by the way that he did probably have an aversion to the institutional aspect of Rome – but he loved Raphael’s Dresden Madonna, so there is that too.
Thank you for the opportunity, and for all your generous posts as well.
@juliania:that word never ever was spoken in my church. To me, you see, that word has Grand Inquisitorial overtones.
That word has nothing to do with inquisition. It is a spiritual diagnostic no less, no more. It was used by all the saints you know, form Saint Basil The Great and his canons to Saint Metropolitan Philaret of NY. If that word is never spoken in your church it just goes to prove that your church is far removed from the Holy Fathers of the Church like the ones we celebrated last Sunday. Furthermore, the Church has always used this word to warn its flock about the devil’s attempts at deceiving the faithful. If your church does never use that word then this tells me that it has no “spiritual immune system left”, no ability to tell right from wrong or good from bad. I am not surprised in the least as I know the MP very very well.
As for me it is really simple: if it is good enough for the saints and Fathers of the Church, it is good enough for me. That word has been used for 2000 years by the Church to distinguish between true and false and it is one of the most important terms in the entire theological lexicon of the Church. The fact that your church never uses it is really a damning admission of its state of spiritual decay. I wish I did not have to say that, but I want you to know that. I owe you that testimony to the truth.
Kind regards,
The Saker
Maedhros said…
“The Truth is one and is Christ!”
Dearest Maedhros,
This is where you are sadly mistaken. The Truth is not Christ. The Truth is God. Even Christ made sure that he differentiate between Father and son. He kept emphasizing that the miracles, he is performing in the name of Father and with the leave of Father.
Even in chapter 23, Matthew emphasized that only Rabbi is God, and even Christ is Abdi. Jesus was Semite, and it be good for you to learn his language.
Hinduism is one of the oldest religion, it is older than when Adam and Eve of Abrahamic Religion were created. They believe in Monotheism and Trimurti like Christians. Have you ever seen the Hindu One God, with Three Faces and Six Hands?
The Hindu question, why did the Christian God came once only. Is He a Prejudiced God, that he only come once, on certain people and certain period in time. They say can’t He come over and over again, in all periods, in all times and on every people and cultures. Why He came as a Human Being only. Are Animals and Birds, not His Creations too.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Dearest Maedhros,
Jesus was a Semite. He came to preach to Semite masses in their language. He didn’t come to preach the Masters (Colonizers) in Greek or in Roman.
So, if you want to know Jesus, then learn the Semite language.
Both in Judaism and Islam, there are no fallen Angels. And, there is no concept of Trinity (Trimurti). Lucifer is not a Hebrew name and no “Lucifer” is mentioned in TaNaKh.
Again, both in Judaism and Islam God is not in constant war with anybody, such as fallen angel called, “Lucifer”. In fact, God is in harmony and He has no enemies. Everywhere is His Kingdom, and even Hell is His Kingdom too.
I am not sure where did Christianity acquire all these concepts from:
1. Fallen Angels
2. Trinity
3. Lucifer
4. God Is In Constant War
5. Original Sin
The above are not in TaNaKh and Jews don’t believe in the above concepts. When two Elephants fight (God and Satan Lucifer) then the ants (creations) gets smashed in the fights of Gaints.
How can the Jews get their Scripture and Religion so wrong.
The Christians hijacked the Jewish Scripture and Jewish Religion and made something else of it. The Jews despise this, and for this reason they were persecuted by the Christians for more than 2000 years.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
@ Juliana
We don’t have infallibility as part of our belief system…
============================
You are deeply mistaken, sister.
Orthodoxy is the definition of infallibility regarding the Faith.
Simply, that infallibility does not belong to any creature, to any man or single Bishop or Patriarch, but to the Head of the Church, Christ, His Word, as preached by the Apostle and transmitted by the Fathers in Council and lived by the the Saints, and for this very reason unchanged in the millennia.
What differs from that infallibility is heretic. Nothing inquisitive here, just declarative. We have never burned any heretic, just excluded them from the Communion, asking for repentance and renunciation of the error.
Do you really think that the Church is an earthly institution?
@ Saker
Father Nils, the archpriest rector of my parish, Moscow Patriarchate, Metropolia of Latvia has declared publicly that the Lutheran Church of Sweden is a “satanic sect”, after its homo drift.
Maybe you do not know the MP so well, after all. You know, it a vast, vast, vast archipelago…..
During the celebration yesterday, you were not so attentive at the Epistle’s reading:
1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.
2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
@ Mohamed
“I am the Life, the Way and the Truth!”
“8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”
But if you, as Muslim, want to continue to teach Christianity to an Orthodox Christian (I apologize for the tautology), please feel free.
So, if you want to know Jesus, then learn the Semite language.
==========================
My dear, if you want to know Jesus, then become Christian.
@juliania
I just googled “Alyosha’s answer Jewish blood libel” and got this link to a google book (which won’t let you cut and paste because that would be stealing from copyright parasites). Grrr.
Liza asks Alyosha about Jewish blood libel and he reponds “I don’t know.”
http://books.google.ca/books?id=7UnB39IYLxIC&pg=PA190&lpg=PA190&dq=alyosha%27s+answer+about+jews&source=bl&ots=ZezrvJB_24&sig=gdCKqLoqoT64X3oI8zs-OiXpJ68&hl=en&sa=X&ei=o_KMU9XFMaH88AHqp4GwBw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
Have you seen the 12 part Russian tv mini-series from 2008? It’s available (also with Eng subs) on youtube. Not recommended until after you’ve read the book once or twice but very good tv. 12 episodes 40 mins each.
the karamazov brothers 2008 english subtitles. 1 Episode
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuQTWWFuS-4
@Juliania:Father Nils, the archpriest rector of my parish, Moscow Patriarchate, Metropolia of Latvia has declared publicly that the Lutheran Church of Sweden is a “satanic sect”
He says that on the basis of their personal immorality or on the basis of their teachings? In the former case, he might want to be careful lest the Lutherans bring up some of the immorality in his own Church, in the latter, he would be calling their teaching heretical, something which in your Church you say is never done. Quite a conundrum no?
Maybe you do not know the MP so well, after all. You know, it a vast, vast, vast archipelago…..
Maybe I don’t, but maybe I do. You have no basis to make that assumption.
As to the Epistle, I am not sure what you are suggesting here. Would you please be explicit and explain how these verses from Galatians are pertinent to our discussion?
Thank you and cheers,
The Saker
He says that on the basis of their personal immorality or on the basis of their teachings?
===============================
Are you really asking? Maybe as a true orthodox have you forgotten that Orthodox never judge the sinner, but always the sin?
…..in his own Church…
=============================
Frankly, at the beginning I was not able to understand these words, because I know that the Church is One, not his, mine or yours, then I have remembered that you are a true orthodox now.
…in the latter, he would be calling their teaching heretical, something which in your Church you say is never done.
==============================
And when have I said that?
I was just explaining to Juliania the opposite, so that she could overcome a bit of confusion about the Faith, but I was doing it “in a spirit of gentleness, considering myself lest I also be tempted”.
Is it clear now why Galatians 6, 1-2 is pertinent? To avoid becoming like that true orthodox in Luke 18, 11…..
Maybe I don’t, but maybe I do. You have no basis to make that assumption.
==================================
Maybe you know the MP, but maybe you don’t. You have no basis to make that assumption on a Patriarchate covering 170 mln of faithfuls and tens of nationalities, with a thousand episcopal seats.
I suspect you know just what you want to know about MP.
Thank you and cheers,
=========================
You are welcome, brother.
Feel free if you need again.
Good night!
@Maedhros: Maybe as a true orthodox have you forgotten that Orthodox never judge the sinner, but always the sin?
I think that there is a misunderstanding here. I was not asking for an explanation of the passage or about the motivation of Father Nils, but rather *juliana’s* opinion for this statement.
then I have remembered that you are a true orthodox now.
Not at all. The Church is a hospital for sinners and this is the category I belong to. I do, however, have the privilege to be treated in the “Right Hospital”.
Maybe you know the MP, but maybe you don’t.
Is that different from what I said here: “Maybe I don’t, but maybe I do.”?
I suspect you know just what you want to know about MP.
You have no basis to make that assumption. But if that assumption makes it easier for you to deal with possible cognitive dissonances, then, by all means, hold on to it.
Feel free if you need again.
In this instance, I don’t recall asking or needing anything other than juliana’s opinion.
But thank you anyway!
Cheers,
The Saker
Yes, there is definitely a misunderstanding. Asking Juliania to expand on a statement reported by me did surely help.
Maybe you did attribute that comment of mine to her.
Sorry for that, but feel free anyway if you want indications to the only Hospital. Of course, for the so many right hospitals you can make it alone.
In any case, I have no basis to make that assumption as much as you have no basis to make yours, namely that you know MP; but you did! If you say that you know it (and very well, no less), I can say that you do not, upon exactly the same basis you use, i.e. personal experience and learnings. Have a wonderful day!
Dear Maedhros,
“I am the Life, the Way and the Truth!”
Yes, Jesus is the Way and the Truth, but do you see Jesus claiming that he is the ONLY Way or ONLY Truth. Each Prophet is a vessel, a way and truth to God.
Jesus is claiming he is way the way and truth to Father, but he is not claiming that he is the exclusive one.
“8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”
Very true again, and that doesn’t mean that Jesus is Father and/or God. Read my lips, no one will physically see God anytime, now or in Heaven. Do you remember what happened to Moses when he insisted to see God. BTW, if you don’t it is in TaNaKh.
Each Prophet is representing Father, thus each Prophet is sinless and best of the character, to be role models. Not like the Prophets in TaNaKh who are scheming conniving bastards.
My dear, if you want to know Jesus, then become Christian.
With due respect to Saker and others, I don’t want to move from Monotheism to Trinity (Trimurti) and then to umpteen Gods.
2+2=5 in Christianity. Why?
1. Jesus is Semite.
2. He came for the Semite masses (peasants) is Semite-ville, and not for the Masters, the Colonizers.
3. He preached to those Semite in Semitic language.
4. But the original Gospels are in Greek.
5. Go figure!
In Christianity God has a name, “YHWH”
No, God doesn’t have a name. If God did, then God belongs to that people and culture. No one owns God, He owns us. No one has exclusive right on God, He has the Exclusive Right on us.
Like I said, if you want to know Jesus learn Semite. Like I have written umpteen times, that the original TaNaKh didn’t contain short vowels and other grammar. These were added to TaNaKh during the 12th to 15th century from the Holy Quran.
Jews don’t write God, they write G-d. So, they didn’t put short vowels in YHWH. Let me do it for you and see what we get.
Ya’Huwah means O’ He.
Thus, YHWH Elohim means O’ He Elohim.
Remember in TaNaKh, when Moses tells God, what should I tell them your name.
God answers : I am, I am, He doesn’t say YHWH.
Lord Lucifer the Greek/Roman Lord is greater than Holy Trinity. Why?
According to you only the Orthodox Christians will go to Heaven on Judgement Day. Even people like sister Nora, who believes in Christ will be Damned in Hell. You are preaching Hell and Damnation, like those Preachers I encountered in USA.
So, on Judgement Day the Kingdom of Lord Lucifer the Greek/Roman Lord will be greater than than the Kingdom of Three Gods put together.
Enough said!
Best regards,
Mohamed.
@Maedhros: I have no basis to make that assumption as much as you have no basis to make yours, namely that you know MP
Actually, this is not true. On one hand, we know for a fact that you know nothing about me. You, on the other than do not know what I do or do not know about the MP. You suppose that I only know that which I want to know, but that statement is really hot air since only you knowing me could substantiate it. As for me claiming that I know the MP and even “very well” is possible, even though it might not seem plausible to you. But nevermind that.
More disturbing to me is the passive-aggressive mode and tone of your unrequested interruption of my exchange with juliania. Somehow both of you are full of “understanding” and “compassion” towards the heterodox, but the mere restatement of basic Patristic positions seems to enrage you, especially if it is combined with the use of Patristic vocabulary (After all, it’s the word “heretic” which set all that off).
Frankly, while I am really saddened and even distressed by what I call “non-Patristic Orthodoxy” which I see as little more than a form of “Eastern Rite Protestantism”, I have no more time to waste on such exchanges. I know the kind of gutter “Internet Orthodoxy” is and I have no desire to have my blog turn into your garden variety “orthodox discussion group”. You consider the MP as the Russian Orthodox Church, I consider it to be “lapsed” (to use the Patristic terminology you two so much dislike). You consider it the legitimate continuation of 9 centuries of Orthodoxy in Russia, I see it as the continuation of the Renovationist (not sure if that it the correct English expression) movement. At this point we have to agree to disagree. Or not. But since this is my blog, I am closing this topic with this post. And let the Heavens judge us all in the presence of the millions of Russian New Martyrs, including, of course, those “overlooked” by the MP like Saint Joseph or Petrograd.
The Saker