I just saw this one on YouTube and it is very good. Here what it says about this video in the “About” section of the YouTube page: (with original spelling).
“UA priest calls to deprive parishioners of Moscow Patriarchate churhces of rights to be elected and work in official organizations. A bit ironic, as in fact he talks not about churches in Russia, but canonical local Ukrainian Orthodox Christian Church which formally subordinates to Moscow Patriarchate and is opposed by not-recognized “Church of Kyiv Patriarchate” which splitted from Ukrainian Orthodox Christian Church after Philaret (patriarch of Kyiv Patriarchate) failed to be elected as new Patriarch in the beginning of 90’s“.
Now, longtime readers already know that I do not recognized the Moscow Patriarchate as a legitimate part of the Russian Orthodox Church (for details, read this: http://10.16.86.131/russia-and-islam-part-two-russian-orthodoxy/ where I explain this little known but crucial issue) and I also oppose the use of the term “canonical” in the sense of “recognized by the powers that be” which is, apparently, how the author (and most modernist and ecumenist Orthodox people understand it to be). In the Ukraine one side recognizes one Orthodox Church as “canonical” because the secular power in Kiev happens to recognize it as such (for purely political reasons) and calls the other “schismatic” while the other side also recognizes one Orthodox Church as “canonical” because the secular power in Moscow happens to recognize it it as such (also for purely political reasons) as calls the other “schismatic. In the authentic Christian tradition “canonical” does not mean “recognized by the secular regime” but rather “in accordance with Church canons”. That is a topic where neither the Ukie Church nor the Moscow Patriarchate wants to go, or even mention [those interested in the topic, please see the note at the bottom of this page]. With all these caveats in mind, I have to say the following:
What this Uniat priest proposes is quite amazing. Not only do they want to seize the church buildings which belong to the “autonomous” Ukrainian Orthodox Chruch to which the Moscow Patriarchate granted autonomy (for purely political reasons, what else?) but he wants to deprive of political rights (hold an official position) those Ukrainians who attend these “autonomous” UOC parishes. The Ukies call that “lustration“. See for yourself:
I have been getting a lot of flak from offended Latin Christians about my posts in which I claim that the Vatican is the “creator” of the Ukraine and that it still plays a central role in feeding the anti-Russian and anti-Orthodox hatred in the Ukraine. I already posted one such example recently, and today I am posting this second one. Not because I want to bash Latin Christians, but because I believe, strongly, that the truth about the Ukraine cannot be understood unless the behind-the-scenes “feeder mechanisms” are brought to light. And since my blog has never been a popularity contest, I fully plan to continue “covering” this topic (-: it will never get me as much flak as my unrepentant use of the “AngloZionist” anyway :-)
To me, this is quite simple, really: intellectually honest Latin Christians will be distressed by this, but they will not bother denying it or “explaining it away”, and they will do whatever they can in their personal lives to oppose and denounce this. Those less encumbered by honesty will try hard to deny it, blame “a few bad apples”, try to find “Orthodox equivalents” in the past or say they personally never saw any manifestation of anti-Orthodox hatred (those interested in the techniques used by these Latins can see here and here).
Still, I hope that most readers will find this topic relevant, important and not discussed elsewhere (which is one of the key goals of this blog).
Some of you might point out that the Moscow Patriarchate has a long record of using state power to persecute non-MP Orthodox Christians. This is quite true, even today. But I would point out a crucial difference: in the past, such actions were the result of the policies of the top MP clergy – bishops, not priests – and in more recent times, I would even argue that only a small minority of MP bishops. This is a small consolation of those on the receiving end of such actions (they typically get their parishes taken away by OMON forces), but I think that it is important to be honest here and say that nowadays the vast majority of MP laity and a strong majority of MP clergy does not support that kind of thuggery. That does not make the MP more legitimate in a (correctly used) canonical sense, but it most definitely makes it much more “Christian” in an ethical sense, certainly more than it was even 15-20 years ago. Uniat hatred for Orthodoxy is a normal and widespread phenomenon, it is a core feature of the Uniat identity and it has no equivalent inside the Moscow Patriarchate.
Finally, just to preempt another attempts at equating the unequatable, you may notice that this Uniat is disguising himself – with cross and all – as an Orthodox priest. You will never see an Orthodox priest disguising himself as a Latin. This is a purely Latin thing to do to con the ignorant. Likewise, the Units are obliged to accept the Frankish version of the Symbol of Faith (aka “Creed”) in which the words “and the Son” (or filioque) are added to the original text, but they are not obliged to say that when they recite the Symbol. This “believing one thing, but not saying so” is also a unique Latin feature which serves the same purpose at the disguise: to con the ignorant and erase visible differences (not matter how crucial – there is no higher dogma in Christianity then the Symbol). This is also why the Latins always speak of geography (eastern Churches) or appearances (eastern Rite) but almost never about fundamental dogmatic disagreements (of which there are plenty!) or about the undeniable fact that the West has been Orthodox for the first 1000 years of its history.
Cheers,
The Saker
Note for those interested in the topic:
In the true Christian tradition a Church *never* derives its authenticity (or, to misuse the modern term again, its “canonicity”) from the secular state nor from the number of churches (in the sense of church, parish, *buildings*) you have acquired courtesy of state patronage. As I have mentioned it here in the past, the “criterion of truth” or the “authentic Christian character” from a Church is derived according to the following ancient principles:
The full unadulterated preservation faith “which the Lord gave, was preached by the Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers. On this was the Church founded; and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian” (St. Athanasius)
and
The full unadulterated preservation of that “which has been believed everywhere, always and by all” (Saint Vicent of Lerins). So no innovations, especially no dogmatic ones.
The short-term combining the two above is often referred to as “consensus of the Fathers” (consensus patrum): that upon which the saints and councils of the early Church agreed upon.
One could say that the innovating “got-their-canonicity-from-the-secular-state” Churches are all in communion with each other, but not in communion with the original, early Church.
Hi Saker, yes, as a Catholic I am distressed to hear of the hostility to the Orthodox that has been a feature of the Ukrainian history.. But I appreciate your honesty in bringing this subject to light.
And yes, will do what I can to counter it. Thanks and God Bless. And praying the Scots vote YES!
Caryl in Philly
I was under the impression that the church did not get involved in politics. Most likely because they would not exist today if they had kept meddling in it.
Saker, your reasoning on the Uniat-Catholic topic is very disappointing.
“I have been getting a lot of flak from offended Latin Christians about my posts in which I claim that the Vatican is the “creator” of the Ukraine and that it still plays a central role in feeding the anti-Russian and anti-Orthodox hatred in the Ukraine.”
I still have seen no evidence that this is a Vatican plot. On the contrary, Vatican policies towards the Orthodox are disappointing to the Uniates, just because of their old hatreds.
“Finally, just to preempt another attempts at equating the unequatable, you may notice that this Uniat is disguising himself – with cross and all – as an Orthodox priest. You will never see an Orthodox priest disguising himself as a Latin. “
Oh boy. You know that there are over a dozen different rites in the Catholic church? The Latin rite is just one of them. And rites are “just” disciplinary matters and not doctrinal matters (not directly).
Regarding the “filioque”: I thought it is universally accepted that this is a theologicaly sound doctrine, since the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father *and* the Son, as tought by Tertullian and Athanasius, just to name a few.
The Synod of Toledo also approved this doctrine:
“„… spiritum quoque Paracletum esse, qui nec Pater sit ipse, nec Filius, sed a Patre Filioque procedens.
Est ergo ingenitus Pater, genitus Filius, non genitus Paracletus, sed a Patre Filioque procedens.”
– Synod of Toledo A.D. 447
Are you accusing the Church Fathers of heresy?
18The previous example you posted could hardly be defined a Priest.. indeed there was not a single word in his speech which could be defined as Cristian… since Cristian means “of Christ” … now you post a second one ::I am a catholic engaged in my possibility to help the brothers of Donbass… My comment is: you show people which use religion for their personal idea and aims… as you know and how it was clearly explain from Pope Wojtila.. “the Pope is without error when speaks of doctrinal matters.. but when he speaks of policy or other human affairs makes errors and mistakes just any other man” so if this is tue for the Pope.. immagine of a common priest in Ukraina…
meh. It’s all just elaborations on Nicean heresy anyway, in which a pagan Roman Emperor decreed the creation of a canon and imposed it on an overwhelming diversity of takes on the life of Christ at swordpoint. Those close to Roman power – the Italians and the Greeks – got their interpretation enshrined as canon, while the vast proliferation of groups such as Mandeans, Valentinians, Orphites, Carpocratians, etc. etc. etc. etc. were put to the sword and their scriptures burned.
Everything disagreement that characterizes modern Christian sectarianism is self-serving and self-congratulatory navel gazing; the real doctrinal disagreements and, in my opinion, the real Christian religion – was virtually obliterated by Roman political power from CE 300 to CE 600 and has very little representation in the modern world apart from a few wonks and mystics.
The Ukies will not rest until there is a full blown war with Russia: Building a wall, on red alert, Russians invading, sanctions here, cry wolf there!!! They are acting like an irritating fly which got in thru’ the window and needs to be permanently squished!
May be a little bit off topic but there might be some good news on the Malaysian airlines flight MH17 front. From today in Itar-Tass :
German investigation company offers $30 million for information on MH17 crash.
Apparently a certain client of the German fraud investigation company Wifka has put up a $30 million reward for any information and evidence on the causes of the crash, who the perpetrators were, who gave thwe order and who was involved in the consequent cover up.
Hopefully we shall see some results as otherwise left up to the usual suspects we will never find out the truth.
Dear Saker,
As a translator for the “French Saker”, I’ve just ended translated this article:http://www.thenation.com/blog/179057/seven-decades-nazi-collaboration-americas-dirty-little-ukraine-secret
It reminded me so much the Christopher Simpson’s “Blowback”:http://www.amazon.com/Blowback-Americas-Recruitment-Disastrous-Domestic/dp/002044995X
Which I had read almost a decade ago but which has been seminal in my understanding of the reality of the US true spirit (unfortunately for it’s duped people).
The Catholic Roman Apostolic Church is indeed highly responsible for what has happened in Eastern Europe during WWII (the horror they have spread against Jews with LOCAL Nazis in eastern europe and thereafter covered, is highly despicable). It has also been responsible for the “rat ligns” which have anable a bunch of psychopaths to resettle in the US, to be used by the CIA, or rather to work side by side with them, if we are to believe simpson (and that guy has the best evidences)… The Vatican is truly a weirdo organisation and it has cause much much trouble in the Eastern Europe and Ukraine.
i have been baptized, raised in that creed and freed from it. At another level… many French Roman Catholic in my homeland were (are)sincerly devoted to their flocks and surely had nothing to do with the evil commited by the Vatican which is clearly…a religious spiritual fraud.
It would be interesting to know the role of the evangelist churches in Ukraine…Since the Ukrainian banderistas were linked with the US Republicans, which have became mostly evangelical and infected by the Dominionists…
To end this, I might ask (you’re not obliged to answer (laughters!), What if the Old Christians were right?
May the Divine bless you saker and bless you all readers of good will
Dear Saker,
As a translator for the “French Saker”, I’ve just ended translated this article:http://www.thenation.com/blog/179057/seven-decades-nazi-collaboration-americas-dirty-little-ukraine-secret
It reminded me so much the Christopher Simpson’s “Blowback”:http://www.amazon.com/Blowback-Americas-Recruitment-Disastrous-Domestic/dp/002044995X
Which I had read almost a decade ago but which has been seminal in my understanding of the reality of the US true spirit (unfortunately for it’s duped people).
The Catholic Roman Apostolic Church is indeed highly responsible for what has happened in Eastern Europe during WWII (the horror they have spread against Jews with LOCAL Nazis in eastern europe and thereafter covered is highly despicable). It has also been responsible for the “rat ligns” which have anable a bunch of psychopaths to resettle in the US, to be used by the CIA, or rather to work side by side with them, if we are to believe simpson (and that guy has the best evidences)… The Vatican is truly a weirdo organisation and it has cause much much trouble in the Eastern Europe and Ukraine.
i have been baptized, raised in that creed and freed from it. At another level… many French Roman Catholic in my homeland were (are)sincerly devoted to their flocks and surely had nothing to do with the evil commited by the Vatican which is clearly…a religious spiritual fraud.
It would be interesting to know the role of the evangelist churches in Ukraine…Since the Ukrainian banderistas were linked with the US Republicans, which have became mostly evangelical and infected by the Dominionists…
To end this, I might ask (you’re not obliged to answer (laughters!), What if the Old Christians were right?
May the Divine bless you saker and bless you all readers of good will
Saker,
An excellent post. Might i add to your knowledge-base and further buttress your argument by supplying you with following tidbit:
The Catholic Church in India uses the same evil and deceptive methods in India to deceive Hindus into coverting to that geopolitical cult, Latin Catholicism (which is what the vatican represents). Catholic priests will mimick hindu chants, dress in saffron robes (identical to those worn by Hindu priests), chant hymns in Sanskrit (the language of prayer for Hindus), distribute “prashaad” (consacrated sweets unique to Hindu/Sikh religious rites), and pray in front of a a sacred flame (identical to the one used in Hindu rites) – all to deceive the common man into thinking that what they are presenting is the same as the native theology, when, in fact, the Catholic-Latin geopolitical cult is radically alien and different from what is being presented.
This is an act of evil because it is predicated on a lie. It intentionally deceives and dupes people and therefore is un-Christian in it’s inception.
As an Indian Christian, I an deeply ashamed of these weaselly tactics carried out, in the name of Christianity, by the political entity known as the Vatican and the ‘cult’ it propagates.
So Ukraine is not the only place this Vatican modus operandi is used.
Jesus did not have to resort to lies and deception to spread his message, therefore those who resort to such methods cannot be considered adherents of Christ.
I’m Catholic. Both Latin and Orthodox churches have true sacraments and true apostolic succession. They must get over their differences, which are truly trivial compared to their identities as true Churches.
Bitterness, whether or not justified, is not only unchristian, it works against the work of Christ.
The most cruel and horrific genocide of the WWW2 was done by the Catholic church in Independent State of Croatia against the Serb Orthodox people.
Bertrand Russell called this genocide “the most hidden genocide in history”. It is estimated that around 1.2 million Orthodox Serbs were killed between 1941. and 1945. Hundreds of Catholic priests were personally taking parts in executions, which were carried out in a manner that shocked even the Nazi Germans.
For those interested to learn about what Catholic Church did to Serbian people, I recommend this book :
The Vatican’s Holocaust
The sensational account of the most horrifying religious massacre of the 20th century
By Avro Manhattan
http://www.reformation.org/holocaus.html
Greetings from Serbia,
The Wend.
@Caryl: thanks a lot for your kind words and understanding. Accepting the truth is *the* prerequisite for any type of reconciliation (not a dogmatic or syncretistic one, of course, but a human one). I hope that your example will inspire others who, I am sad to say, care more about defending their parochial agenda (literally) then the truth thus making even a human reconciliation totally impossible.
And, yes, I personally also hope for a “YES” in Scotland :-)
Kind regards,
The Saker
Saker,
I am catholic, engaged in helping people in Dombass because I hate injustice and Nazism. Yes, the first years of Christianity we were all Orthodox-Christians, and then Constantine came along and Church and State made a deal. One of many deals done together, but which did not obliterate the facts that Christ, and the Fathers of the church are the foundation of our religion, and as an Italian I know how to tell apart faith from politics. The actual Pope, from Argentina, seems eager to get “a reconciliation” with the “Eastern churches” , and to have a better dialogue with the Orthodox Church of Moscow. When the Ukrainian prime minister in April visited the Vatican, the Pope advised him ” to make peace asap”.
@Lionel: At another level… many French Roman Catholic in my homeland were (are)sincerly devoted to their flocks and surely had nothing to do with the evil commited by the Vatican which is clearly…a religious spiritual fraud.
Yes, and in part my insistence to bring up this topic is precisely to tell the truth to those sincere Latin who have been deceived about it by their clergy. Look, I have been in France, Italy, Argentina and I have had Latin friends (Austrians and Colombians) whose individual piety, kindness, devotion to the truth would put to shame 99.99999% of Orthodox Christians, very much including myself. I see these Christians not as enemies, but very much as *victims* just as the true Romans (those who lived in Rome that is) were the victims of the Franks who even usurped their name. I would even say that all of modern southern western Europe (Italy, France, Spain) have been the victims of a Frank attempt at “genociding” them and their culture. This is one of the reasons why I say that there is nothing “Roman” in the putatively “Roman” Church. It is all a huge fraud resting on literally 1000 years of lies (such as referring to the local Synod in Toledo as “patristic”) and truly vicious violence (as shown by the history from the Crusaders in Byzantium to the Uniats in Kiev today). Absolutely NONE of my Latin friends knew *anything* about this history. Heck, I would estimate that no less than 95% of all Latins nowadays sincerely believe that their (19th century!) dogma of the Immaculate Conception is both ancient and refers to the Virginity of the Mother of God. So my goal is double, really:
a) inform those who do not know
b) denounce those who do
But none of this is in any way an expression to any form of personal animosity I would have against the Latin Christians. My animosity is solely focused on the Lies which keeps them prisoner (spiritually and psychologically) and of which they are the first victim.
Most sincerely,
The Saker
Regarding the filioque again:
From St. Athanasius:
” But the Holy Spirit, being that which proceeds from the Father, is ever in the hands of the Father Who sends and of the Son Who conveys Him, by Whose means He filled all things. (Statement of Faith, 4; NPNF2-4)
. . . the Spirit Himself takes from the Son, as He Himself says . . . God . . . begets; and what does begetting signify but a Son? And thus of the Son Himself, all things partake according to the grace of the Spirit coming from Him; and this shews that the Son Himself partakes of nothing, but what is partaken from the Father . . . (Four Discourses Against the Arians, I, 15-16; NPNF2-4)
. . . He had poured the Spirit on us; now to give the Spirit with authority, is not in the power of creature or work, but the Spirit is God’s Gift. For the creatures are hallowed by the Holy Spirit; but the Son, in that He is not hallowed by the Spirit, but on the contrary Himself the Giver of it to all, is therefore no creature, but true Son of the Father. And yet He who gives the Spirit, the same is said also to be made; that is, to be made among us Lord because of His manhood, while giving the Spirit because He is God’s Word. (Four Discourses Against the Arians, II, 18; NPNF2-4)
For there is but one form of Godhead, which is also in the Word; and one God, the Father, existing by Himself according as He is above all, and appearing in the Son according as He pervades all things, and in the Spirit according as in Him He acts in all things through the Word. (Four Discourses Against the Arians, III, 15; NPNF2-4)
. . . the Son does not merely partake the Spirit, that therefore He too may be in the Father; nor does He receive the Spirit, but rather He supplies It Himself to all; and the Spirit does not unite the Word to the Father, but rather the Spirit receives from the Word. . . . whatever the Spirit hath, He hath from the Word. . . . it is a request to the Father, as John has written, that the Spirit should be vouchsafed through Him to those who believe, through whom we are found to be in God, and in this respect to be conjoined in Him. For since the Word is in the Father, and the Spirit is given from the Word, He wills that we should receive the Spirit, that, when we receive It, thus having the Spirit of the Word which is in the Father, we too may be found on account of the Spirit to become One in the Word, and through Him in the Father. . . . that Spirit is in us, which is in the Word which is in the Father. (Four Discourses Against the Arians, III, 24-25; NPNF2-4)
. . . if the Spirit knew, much more must the Word know, considered as the Word, from whom the Spirit receives; . . . (Four Discourses Against the Arians, III, 44; NPNF2-4)”
https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/605233872844935
Obviously, St. Athanasius is a victim of “frankish” lies. As are a great many other early Church Fathers.
As I said, you are implicitly accusing the Church fathers of heresy, since there is no doctrine that the Catholic Church teaches, which was not taught by the fathers.
The filioque is also matter of logic, since the Son partakes in everything the Father does. If therefore the Spirit proceeds from the Son it has to proceed from the Father.
@Radik: Obviously, St. Athanasius is a victim of “frankish” lies
No, not at all. Saint Athanasius understood the difference between conveying, partaking, coming from, acting through and many other concepts or formulas more or less translated into English because he, of course, used the original Greek categories.
there is no doctrine that the Catholic Church teaches, which was not taught by the fathers.
What a perfect expression of this unique mix of certitude and ignorance which I referred to in my reply to Lionel. Of course, the begs the question for why as late as the 19th century you folks had to dogmatize a cartload of nonsense which ended up creating even trouble to your poor selves…
The filioque is also matter of logic
AHA! This is important and I agree. Frankish theology has always been scholastic, applying logical methods to revealed Mysteries whereas Christian theology was always mystical and ascetic. There is really no overstating the importance of this aspect of our irreconcilable differences. One could even argue, and I would agree, that on a methodological/disciplinary level Orthodox Christians are FAR closer to certain branches of Islam (Shiism and Sufism) or Hindusim then to western scholasticism and rationalism.
since the Son partakes in everything the Father does. If therefore the Spirit proceeds from the Son it has to proceed from the Father.
Pop-theology? Disney dogmatics? How can one qualify that statement?
In Constantinople not even a grade school student would dare to utter such a stupidity because a) they knew the meaning of the words they were using and b) they were taught logic. Lucky them!
The Saker
Uniates are what? 7-10% of Ukraine’s population. Orthodox under the Moscow Patriarchate are 60% I believe. So the only way they push this agenda is if the 60% are sheep. They may be sheep now, but won’t be forever.
@Andreas Walsh:Uniates are what? 7-10% of Ukraine’s population. Orthodox under the Moscow Patriarchate are 60% I believe. So the only way they push this agenda is if the 60% are sheep
Sadly, there is much truth to this. The majority of Ukies are neither Uniats, not Nazis, nor russophobes nor NWO groupies. What we have is the typical situation in which a highly-driven and nasty minority tries to impose its agenda on the majority. Hence the sense of urgency to do as much as possible as fast as possible (Poro sining the Association inside the Parliament). All these folks probably only have a few months to do their thing before the pendulum comes back swinging in yet another big case of karmic pain…
Cheers,
The Saker
@Saker:
” Saint Athanasius understood the difference between conveying, partaking, coming from, acting through and many other concepts or formulas more or less translated into English because he, of course, used the original Greek categories.”
As far as I know the technical term is “procession” (ἐκπορεύεσθαι), in contrast to “generation” which is a relation between the Father and the Son. But I think this exact distinction was made somewhat later.
But what is your opinion on this matter exactly? Do you assert that the Spirit does proceed solely from the Father? Not from the Father and the Son? Neither from the Father trough the Son? The Son having no part in the procession of the Holy Spirit?
“applying logical methods to revealed Mysteries whereas Christian theology was always mystical and ascetic.”
Are you really saying that “applying logical methods” to revealed doctrines is some fault? I think every kind of systematic theology requires some logical method.
As far our understanding can penetrate anything it has to be logical.
Of course, our understanding can help us only up to a certain point. The inner life of God, his essence can only be “seen” by the beatific vision (if at all), which is a supernatural act, beyond the limits of our understanding.
Still, as long there is a possibility of a systematic, understandable doctrine about God and his relation to Creation, i.e. theology, it has to be logical, and therefore open to logical methods.
Just as in WWII, the centralized, nationally planned economy of the future Russia and the New Russia will defeat the Nazis. The beauty of what is happening is, that yes, in some sense, Putin is trying to recreate the Soviet Union. I look forward to the law (already proposed) granting RF citizenship to anyone who was born in the Soviet Union. On the day that law is rolled out, then I’ll know that we are winning. The ideals of communism are not different from the ideals of christianity.
Thanks to the NAF and the RF for fighting for peace and freedom and fighting against capitalism and fascism.
“Top Estonian Colonel: Putin Is Planning To Dominate Europe”
More MSM crap I won’t link to.
MH17, anyone?
Check the videos on Colonel Cassad’s web site if you want to know and see what is really going on during this so called ‘ceasefire’ and/or what really happened over the past few months [the web site has 0 trackers]
Saker:
As a Latin “Old Believer” (Tridentine Catholic, even pre-Tridentine Catholic if you will) thank you for this post.
I will continue to encourage you to look into the differences between the offensive manner the Ukrainian Greek Cathoic Church carries on, and the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church on the other hand. From my extensive experience with them in the US, I believe the Ukrainian Greek Catholics strain in an unique and especially arduous manner at being as offensive as possible to the Orthodox.
Radik:
Latin is actually a theologically poor language in some respects, and when it comes to the procession of the Holy Spirit, the words in Latin “qui ex patre filioque procedit – who proceeds from the Father and the Son” were used to try to express a truth about the common divinity of the Son with the Father against the later Arians. This was done in Latin in a translation of the Creed, and without consideration of how a back-translation of this phrase would come across in Greek (as heretical).
The original phrase itself “who proceeds from the Father” is a direct quote of Jesus Christ in the gospel of St. John, and it was inserted into the Nicene Creed by the Council of Constantinople against those heretics who denied divinity to the Holy Spirit. It is pointless to argue against the correctness of this phrase unless we wish to question all the things Jesus taught his Apostles.
The Latin Fathers, including St. Augustine, understood and used this phrase “qui ex patre filioque procedit” to speak of the actions or energy of the Holy Spirit in the world and especially in the hearts of believers – truly Jesus sends the Holy Spirit to us to guide us and sanctify us, and this is spoken of many times in the Gospels and the letters of St. Paul. However, as it was used in the Creed, it became confused with the teaching of the Creed on the origins of the person or hypostasis of the Holy Spirit, which is to proceed from the Father alone, or as St. Augustine put it “proceed principally from the Father”. The Holy Spirit takes His very quality as a distinct person as the Holy Spirit from the fact that He “proceeds” from the Father as opposed to being “begotten” from the Father as the Son, Jesus is.
The Greek Father’s meanwhile used an alternative phrase in Greek to amplify the Creed on this subject “who proceeds from the Father through the Son”. Many Frankish theologians spilled much ink (and it does continue to this day) arguing this phrase and the filioque are alike and equal. They are not. The Greek phrase clearly preserves the quality of origin of the Godhead to the Father alone, and speaks only of the Holy Spirit coming to us “through” the Son as a mediator. Further, this mediation of the Son is not of the personhood or Hypostais of the Holy Spirit, but our experience of His energies in this world – i.e. the infusion within us of the life of Grace, which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, or theosis or divination if you will.
The greatest (at least in my mind, but I dare say for many Orthodox too) Greek theologian since the early Church, St. Gregory Palamas, laid all of this out very clearly in his theological works nearly 700 years ago now, and invited the Franks and Latins to come to a common and non-heretical understanding with the whole Church of what it was they were trying to say when they chanted “filioque”. This phrase can only apply to an understanding of the energies of the Holy Spirit, not His godhead and Hypostasis. The sooner the Pope of Rome can admit this (and all the concomittant truths that go with it that too many westerners gloss over or ignore), the sooner we can all move on from the error of 1054.
I have just read your text about Orthodoxy in Russia and found it extremely interesting.
To me, problems with Orthodoxy had already begun, but more in the Byzantine world, as soon as 1054 (whoever was right in the event itself; for instance, I admit Henry VIIIth, whose history I know far better, was right about the nullity of his marriage and Clement VII, who, forced by Emperor Charles of Spain, excommunicated him five months after having given him six months to present his proofs and while his messengers had already been sent, was utterly wrong and it is considered a heavy crime to excommuniate somebody wrongly; but Henry VIII was even more wrong in his funding an new religion and persecuting all Catholics); and reached Russia with Ivan the Terrible who required an unwholesome submissivity from all clergy who in return were free to persecute all that was not Orthodox pretending they were unfaithful to the Tsar (exactly like Jerusalem Sanhedrin told Pilatus that if he didn’t kill Our Lord, he would not be faithful to Cesar), hence the cesaro-papisme.
I guessed the covert Lutheranism of your tsars (who “all” had Lutheran mothers) had bad effects too, on Orthodoxy (I would say, in France, secularism has affected even the bishops, only two of them resisted French Revolution if I remember well).
But I didn’t know, even the great lines you gave us, and the existence of a “traditional Orthodoxy”; and am just learning they were also persecuted by the Moscow “patriarcate” (I thought it was collaborationist, in the “great tradition since Ivan the Terrible”, yet legitimate), just like Catholics.
It gives me hope.
Because we MUST reunite.
But not under the “œcumenism” which is, as you say, heretic, for Catholics as well as for Orthodoxes : for, when one say “tout le monde il est beau, tout le monde il est gentil” (“everybody is nice, everybosy is kind”), what about the Truth, and what about GOD, and God’s will? These are what we must seek, and pursue, not worldly approbation!
And I think we both agree upon it.
About the Uniats, they WERE at the beginning, Orthodox priests and were allowed to keep the Orthodox liturgy, vestments etc. Not to lure anybody : just not to make violence to their habits which were not bad. Ther is no imitation, there is continuation.
And about hatred, first I am sorry to note it again, against Catholics and Papacy (Papacy in general, not present one which is well worth “your” Kirill but please note that, in spite of all the obsession Orthodoxes have about Catholics, I do not believe Pope Francis is bad because he is a secret Orthodox Patriarch named by Kirill I; ;-) I think he is simply taken by modernism and maybe mason, and suppose it may be the same with Kirill I who, if he is so modernist and œcumenic may well be an Atlantist Integrator, much as he manages to conceal it).
And may you remind that those violent Uniats are modernists and œcumenist for most of them, that they persecute as violently the ones among them who do not want their injustice and violence? Just like what you state about the Moscow Patriarcate. The Kiev “patriarcate”‘s opposition to Moscow’s is purely political and a question of concurrence and privileges.
All this reminds me Louis de Bonald, the French counter-revolutionary thinker :
“One can be moderate with extreme opinions; that is what affect not to believe those who are violent with ideas of the weak” (“On peut être modéré avec des opinions extrêmes; c’est ce qu’affectent de ne pas croire ceux qui sont violents avec des idées de faibles”).
TR
Like many here I’m passionately anti-liberal/zionist/wahabi/nazi/catholic. I’d describe myself as Marxian-Jungian, hoping that Marx’s hard-nosed critical materialistic rationalism negates Jung’s flakiness while Jung’s focus on the fundamental irrationality of the human psyche negate Marx’s naive scientistic progressivism. I couldn’t bring myself believe in christianity but I support almost any force opposing the spread of roman catholocism and/or liberalism.
About how future of Russia’s ideological-commutity-identity-apparatus. I see serious flaws in any form of revivalism. As entertaining as sites like kplo.ru can be, sheer communist-style humanistic rational-progressivism is better than some things, but not a well-balanced spiritual diet. I don’t believe in the antagonism of religion, but I also find problems in relying on religion as a national unifier today. It simply cannot be an effective unifying force for an RF or an EEU. There is too much diversity and too many people like me whom modernity has made incabable of believing. I think it’s important to point out that the USSR persecuted religion not exactly to spread atheism, but to destroy opposition to the new ideological-community-identity which they were partially if temporarily successful in creating. It had it’s own saints, prophesies, holy texts etc etc. Lets not forget also how so many of it’s leaders were the men they were thanks to the church, Stalin & Dzherzhinsky for example.
I think it’s important to create a forward looking ideological-community-identity built on the past but not trying to recreate it. both christianity and socialism are forward looking. This, uh, ICI should also not exclude any group of citizens and should be built on a narrative that interweaves pre-existing history, myth and legend without any major cognitive gaps-without brushing too much under the carpet. Hopefully it can also overthrow the stale, tired, nonsensical left-right fascism-liberalism-communism framework.
Maybe for Russia a narrative of martial defense of justice, unity and home would work. I think those who know Russia would agree that this wouldn’t be a huge leap. You take the ideology surrounding the great patriotic war and extend the major themes to all time. I’d say martial values of duty, honour, camradery, chivalry etc already resonate with Russians as principles for battlefield and everyday life. I think the state could harness this unify the orthodox, the humanist, the ethnic minorities and maintain a continental empire without rotten 5th-column ideas decaying the RF/EEU into liberal nation-states. I’d like to see a subtle adjustment of state symbols that say, “We are not Europe, not Asia, not the Empire and not the USSR, we are us today, proud of where we came from, and united we stand up and fight for what’s right.” Of course the oligarchs need to be crushed in a classic alliance of the security services and the common people.
I passionately hope that the Eurasian Union project will be successful. I share Saker’s disappointment that mass-uprisisings haven’t occurred across Novorussia. Right now, with half of two oblasts liberated and the EU association agreement moving ahead, I’m struggling to remain optimistic. Ok, our side is playing the long game and the economic fundamentals of the pax liberalica are dysmal, but I’d hardly say things are going well.
Radik:
The filioque is also matter of logic, since the Son partakes in everything the Father does. If therefore the Spirit proceeds from the Son it has to proceed from the Father.
The Son does not partake of the Fatherhood of the Father. So your statement is not correct or logical.
For the same reason (the Father is NOT the Son and therefore the Son is NOT the Father) this is also why the Son does not partake of the procession of the hypostasis of the Holy Spirit.
Further, the Holy Spirit is differentiated from the Son as a person precisely because the Son is “begotten” by the Father while the Holy Spirit “proceeds” from the Father. Being “begotten”, the Son gains the quality of being the Son, while by proceeding, the Holy Spirit gains the quality of not being the Son.
I don’t understand why one needs to go beyond the truths of the Bible: “Thou art my Son, this day I have begotten you” (Psalm 2.7, Hebrews 1.5) and “The Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father” (St. John 15.26) seem clear enough.
There is a great phrase that clearly describes what you are attempting to defend: “Nonesense on stilts.”
on the recent “yalta european strategy” forum (“YES-Ukraine”), which was of course held not in yalta, but in kiew, one interesting event took place:
wikipedia founder jimmy wales gave the sister of some maidan-activist who was killed some award for his activities on wikipedia. “he even organized a flash-mob where hundreds of activists edited thousands of articles”.
those “activists” were of course in no way payed by NATO or the US, or some soros-front.
this “activist” was also a “totally apolitical guy, with interests in sports and histroy”. (a typical nazi-hooligan, usually)
i personally noticed an immense flood of edits on wikipedia during the early days of the coup in ukraine. there were numerous edits on historical articles in order to rewirte histroy according to ukrainian fascist lore.
also the “maidan-events” were more or less covered in real-time on wikipedia, in complete accordance to kiew/us/nato propaganda.
german and english articles were written citing ukrainian propaganda-outlets as sources.
http://yes-ukraine.org/en/news/the-wikipedias-founder-awarded-posthumously-as-wikipedist-of-the-year-a-ukrainian-guy-igor-kostenko
@Radik: But what is your opinion on this matter exactly?
LOL, I don’t have an “opinion”. That is precisely the chasm which separates us.
Are you really saying that “applying logical methods” to revealed doctrines is some fault?
Yes, that is exactly correct. 100 %. Christ said “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God” and “For the wisdom of this world is folly with God” and “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.”
He said nothing about logical methods. Where we simply preserve, you innovate. Where we contemplate, you analyze. Where we pray, you think.
We are just humble servants of our Lord, one of you guys even fancies himself His Vicar on Earth and the rest of you nod their heads in agreement.
Radik – you will never understand us because we live in totally different universes. We do not even have a common vocabulary to disagree on something. This is what makes the so-called “ecumenical dialog of love” such a ridiculous and toxic waste of time: it gives the external appearance of a dialog which is inherently impossible to have as Dostoevsky Grand Inquisitor so brilliantly illustrated.
Let’s stop this “dialog of the deaf” (as the French say). Do your thing, we will do our. We will all meet at Judgment Day :-)
Cheers,
The Saker
Lionel:
It would be interesting to know the role of the evangelist churches in Ukraine…Since the Ukrainian banderistas were linked with the US Republicans, which have became mostly evangelical and infected by the Dominionists…
Speaker of the Rada Turchinov is a Baptist cultist. I think that should tell you all you need to know about the “Evnagelistic” cults vis-a-vis Novorossiya.
To end this, I might ask (you’re not obliged to answer (laughters!), What if the Old Christians were right?
Lionel, as an “Old Believer” Latin Catholic, I will say the Old Believers in the Russian Church were right. They were doing nothing more than passing down what their father’s believed and practiced, for which they became condemned as schismatics and heretics when the Patriarch decided to make meaningless and stupid changes to the existing ritual.
We can see the same results in the wake of Vatican II. The participation of the common man at Mass was cut by 2/3’s upon imposition of the new Vatican II system of forsaking what the fathers believed, practiced, and worshipped.
@Saker:
I totally disagree.
And its not an either or. Its not *either* praying *or* thinking. Its both. Faith *and* reason. Both are gifts from God, and complement each other.
Let’s stop this “dialog of the deaf” (as the French say). Do your thing, we will do our. We will all meet at Judgment Day :-)
You are overly pessimistic :) Church unification before Judgement Day. This will come :)
Radik:
Of course, our understanding can help us only up to a certain point. The inner life of God, his essence can only be “seen” by the beatific vision (if at all), which is a supernatural act, beyond the limits of our understanding.
Well, if that was so, what in the world is it that so many monks and nuns (and laymen!) in both east and west have experienced in seeing God in the here and now? What did the Apostls see on Mt. Tabor? Or Moses in the burning bush? Who did Abraham converse with? Who walked in the Garden with Adam? They certainly seemed to understand exactly what they saw.
From what you write I can tell you do not have any personal experience with God, and that your knowledge of him extends no further than what you read in an adult catechism. God is not going to be found in the pages of a theological manual, but through the cultivation of a personal friendship via the mediation of prayer and meditation.
This is the very first point I emphasize with my 4th grade sunday school class, and I do it with a simple analogy about their earthly friends. They did not become friends with people on earth by reading about them in a book, or thinking logically about their qualities as a person. They became friends with other people by experiencing their life personally and entering into their life relationally. Our relationship with God is not any different.
You will never know God as He is as long as you keep searching for Him in a scholastic manual and hoping He will unfold Himself through rational explanations accesible to our understanding and comprehendible within the limits of creation and time.
In the Bible we read that a day of the Lord is as a thousand years. I would also say from experience that 10 seconds seeing God and creation as they really are is as a lifetime of study of the same subjects in books and school.
This thread is a fine offering Saker but….
…oh gawd, it is a minefield.
…but still
a long and venerated Russian bone of a dog fight plus martyrs implicitly anticipates with certainly the end of the Schism; and Our Lady of Fátima (1917) said Russia’s conversion certainly will happen but that it will be “late.” Late? can anyone imagine contemporary Rome in a worse condition? I personally think re-version is imminent because gob smacking changes are surprising everybody, we here agree.
@ Lionel,
$6 Billion Gaza Reconstruction Project Will Benefit Israeli Companies.
That ‘dead Jew on a shtick’ racket still pays out well after so many years.
Everybody straight off the train into the gas chambers [especially children, women and the elderly]? That explains the almost 1,000,000 currently alive holocaust survivors today, doesn’t it?
If one doesn’t feel sorry, one ought to feel guilty? Is that correct?
This thread is a fine offering Saker but….
…oh gawd, it is a minefield.
…but still
a long and venerated Russian bone of a dog fight plus martyrs implicitly anticipates with certainly the end of the Schism; and Our Lady of Fátima (1917) said Russia’s conversion certainly will happen but that it will be “late.” Late? can anyone imagine contemporary Rome in a worse condition? I personally think re-version is imminent because gob smacking changes are surprising everybody, we here agree.
I grew up in a Christian Reformed environment in the Netherlands where my father read the Bible at every mid-day meal and my grandparents read it at every meal.On Sundays we attended church TWICE!
The Christian Reformed Church had a schism (which is an entirely human construct)This meant that my Grandparents became Christian Reformed Article 32 and my parents remained in the original Church.Of course there was the Dutch Reformed church as well as the Lutheran and a number of other Protestant denominations. Today all these denominations in the Netherlands have disappeared and there is now only the Protestant community consisting of all the above denominations and the RC church….I did not much like the church in which I grew up and refused to be confirmed in it. This did not mean I stopped looking. So I attended Bibelheim Beatenberg in Switzerland and became a missionary who believed that somehow my God was better than the others God. (Arrogance/Ignorance) Until I discovered that the length of my skirt, or the height of my heels were extremely disturbing to God but He paid far less attention to my soul.
Whenever people speak of Truth it is THEIR Truth. Everyone has his/her own truth. Religion, I have finally come to understand, is an entirely human construct and the original politics. I.o.w once, long ago they were one and the same. God comes in many different forms and goes by many different names, yet he/she is ONE. Hyam Maccoby wrote the best seller “The Mythmaker” Paul and the invention of Christianity.
When my father passed away I was inconsolable. My minister came and brought me another Bible – number 7- I told him that it would not help me. In my intense grief I went looking for my Bible with the red letters, which are the words Jesus spoke, hoping that He might console me. There is very little of Jesus in the Bible so it did not take long for me to read it. I kept reading his words over and over again every day for about 3 months after which there was a very slow awareness that there are TWO religions in the Bible, very little Christianity and a great deal of Paulinism. The current Church whether RC or protestant is based solely on Paul not on the teachings of Jesus. And unless we are willing to practice the teachings of Jesus who does not judge nor condemn anyone, we are not Christians. The Bible tells us that we are made in God’s image. If that is so, than we are like God and part of God, not separate. Jesus says the Kingdom of God is within us. If we believe him, that means that this Kingdom of God is in each and everyone of us whether we observe RC hierarchies or orthodox hierarchies or protestantism…Any differences between them are human constructs and separate us from this one God.
Judgements separate us from God.
Anger which has its root in fear separates us from God. All of us are a drop in the ocean and make up this ocean. Without us there is nothing. Any differences we see are illusions and not real.
So if we want to change the world we need to start with ourselves first and learn to see God in everyone….There are many different roads to God and they are all PERFECT. If I want to go to Boston but drive south towards the Keys, is that a sin ? Or is it just something that doesn’t work? When we encounter people who do good, no matter what their religious background….they harbor the persecuted, feed the hungry etc. I do not see his/her religion I see an expression of God working through these people, and I am grateful. Conversely whenever I find myself in a particularly disagreeable situation I ask myself “why am I responding to this negative person or this incident? How can I look at it from a different angle? What lesson, if any, do I need to learn from this. Would Jesus react like I did?” And if the answer is NO, than I know that I have to work on myself.
We do not find God in a book or in a church….The only God we find there is the one WE brought there with us.
We are all God’s work in progress.
Blessings to us all!!
@Andrew:As a Latin “Old Believer” (Tridentine Catholic, even pre-Tridentine Catholic if you will) thank you for this post. I will continue to encourage you to look into the differences between the offensive manner the Ukrainian Greek Cathoic Church carries on, and the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church on the other hand. From my extensive experience with them in the US, I believe the Ukrainian Greek Catholics strain in an unique and especially arduous manner at being as offensive as possible to the Orthodox.
Andrew, this is a tricky question, which I submit to you in all due respect (for one thing, you have just demonstrated to me an understanding of theology and theological categories which is very rare, especially the distinction between essence and energy).
First, I do fully agree with you the Ukies are rather atypical of modern Latin communities. In my entire life I have never heard the kind of hate-filled rants from mainstream Latins as one can systematically hear from Ukie Latin. This, said, is it not also true that after Vatican II the Vatican very strongly toned down its previous hostility not only towards Orthodox Christians, but towards all other forms of religion? Now, I am quite sure that you see all the well-meaning but nonsensical innovations adopted at Vatican II, and I agree, but setting aside the rejection of pre-Vatican II piety, religious practices, etc. – is it not true that Vatican II was, at least on a human, ethical, level a healthy rejection of the kind of totalitarian maximalism of Vatican I? And if you agree, then would you not say that the (pre-) Tridentine “Catholicism” is much more hostile to us, Orthodox Christians, then the new, modernized one?
I cannot imagine the Curia backing a modern day Pavelic for example. In the case of the Ukraine, even if there is a kind of “circling the wagons” and “right or wrong – my country” reflex about defending the Uniats, I have yet to see a senior Bishop or Cardinal endorsing Iarosh, Timoshenko or Tiagninok. In Latin America, a lot of clergy and bishops have completely moved away from their previous support for the local oligarchy. Would that have happened before Vatican II? Concerning Russia, can you imagine a Pope like Benedict XV with his total hatred of Orthodoxy after Vatican II? I personally cannot imagine that. So was Vatican II really that bad? Was it not, at least in part, a healthy reaction to the excesses of Vatican I?
Lastly, may I ask how your (pre) Tridentism is different from the one of the Old Catholics in Europe (not sure if they exist in the USA, sorry).
I would be most interested in hearing your replies to the above questions.
Thanks a lot, kind regards,
The Saker
@Radik:Church unification before Judgement Day
Of course! The Church has never been divided, it’s unity is, in fact, a crucial Christian dogma. And since the Church has never been, and cannot be, divided, there is no need for any “unification”. Dogmatics 101.
Cheers,
The Saker
@Andrew:as an “Old Believer” Latin Catholic, I will say the Old Believers in the Russian Church were right. They were doing nothing more than passing down what their father’s believed and practiced, for which they became condemned as schismatics and heretics when the Patriarch decided to make meaningless and stupid changes to the existing ritual.
I 100% agree. Almost. Except for one HUGE problem. Alas, alas, alas, the Old Believers in Russia also got the Symbol wrong. Their addition was not “filioque” but “istinnogo”. And since adding *anything* to the Symbol automatically falls under the anathemas of the local and Ecumenical Councils they ended up being right on all the ritual issues and wrong on the one key dogmatic one.
I think that the lesson here is the “faith of the fathers” argument is a very dangerous one. It was used by the pagans of Rome, Julian the Apostate and, alas, alas, alas, by our Old Believers for whom I truly have an immense and deeply heartfelt, whose vicious persecution by the Russian state I consider a crime of immense proportions and, I would add, immense consequences (as Solzhenitsyn said – there would never have been a Revolution in the Old Believer’s Russia), and whose every word of reproach and chastisement towards us, “rotten Nikonians”, I will accept in silence and shame. But in this one, crucial, case, I believe that they were unequivocally wrong. Do you disagree?
The Saker
“Of course! The Church has never been divided, it’s unity is, in fact, a crucial Christian dogma.[…]
Come on! You know what I mean. Reunification of the Orthodox and Catholic Church.
I’m Greek and take no offense to the truth.
If you want to know how messed up the Churches are in Ukraine, alls one needs is to contemplate this name, Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, it is a very messed up Church and most Greeks in Ukraine are part of this Church, this evolved in this manner I believe so the Greeks can keep their identity,
Black Sea is full of original classical Greek Cites, including
Crimea and Sevastopol, quite incredible history.
We should be bridge builders, the
Bolsheviks mass murdered this Church and it’s leadership, my first intro to this was Mitrokin Archive, read the first book.
The Greek Patriarch Bartholemew
should be followed as the most
reasonable, leader of all Christians, he still holds an official office of Constantinople,
Eastern Roman Empire, of which all
Churches have a common root.
Rebels stay strong.
Best Regards
Daniel Rich, Norman Finkelstein, in his excellent ‘The Holocaust Industry’ was also bemused at how the numbers of ‘Holocaust survivors’ grew, year by year. There is no doubt, in my opinion, that this very great evil has been exploited by the Zionazis to justify their destruction of the Palestinians, to silence critics of Israeli crimes and state terrorism and to brainwash Western publics in a manner that is utterly shameful, and, in fact, insults the memories of the victims. As a very brave group of real Holocaust survivors noted during the latest massacre in Gaza, ‘Never Again!’, means never again for anybody’.
In fact, of course, the Zionazis used the Judeocide to promote settlement in Palestine even as the murders were occurring. And today the genocide of the Jews receives more attention, by orders of magnitude, than all the other genocides in history put together. Every large city in the USA has a ‘Holocaust Museum or Memorial’, but the entire country has none dedicated to the near extermination o Native Americans and few to the black victims of the Atlantic slave trade. The genocides by the Nazis of Roma, Poles, Serbs, gays and above all others, 20-30 million Soviet citizens are almost totally ignored. The tens of millions who died in man-made famines in India under the English, the last, the Great Bengal Famine of the 1940s, contemporaneous with the Shoah and killing as many if not more human beings, are almost unknown in the West. The hecatomb in the Belgian Congo, that killed ten million by some estimates, has had one or two popular studies published to inform the masses, while the Judeocide has had thousands, if not tens of thousands. The ‘Holocaust'(TM) has, deliberately and concertedly, been turned into a sort of quasi-religion in the West, thereby, I would say, by its obsessiveness and the almost total indifference to the suffering of all other victims of human cruelty and savagery, belittling and denigrating all those other victims. We have had the Judaic cult of Jewish supremacism in everything, including suffering, shoved down our throats, whether we like it or not.
Who are my People?
My People? Who are they?
I went into the church where the congregation
Worshiped my God. Were they my people?
I felt no kinship to them as they knelt there.
My people! Where are they?
I went into the land where I was born,
Where men spoke my language .
I was a stranger there.
“My people,” my soul cried. “Who are my people?”
Last night in the rain I met an old man
Who spoke a language I do not speak,
Which marked him as one who does not know my God.
With apologetic smile he offered me
The shelter of his patched umbrella.
I met his eyes. . . And then I knew.
Rosa Zagnoni Marinoni
Relevant? To what? The war in Ukraine?
No. The locations of the pipelines are relevant, for example.
Quoting Viktor Orban:
“Ideology-based foreign policy was invented by smart countries for dumb countries.”
Allow me to universalize it: Ideologies are created by smart people to deceive dumb people.
@Andrew said: Well, if that was so, what in the world is it that so many monks and nuns (and laymen!) in both east and west have experienced in seeing God in the here and now? What did the Apostls see on Mt. Tabor? Or Moses in the burning bush? Who did Abraham converse with? Who walked in the Garden with Adam? They certainly seemed to understand exactly what they saw.
God is not a person that he walked with Adam. Only the Wahhabi and Liver Eater take the Quran literally.
Moses could not even see a sight of God and he fainted, but Adam walked with him.
And, that God is not a person and that Jacob wrestled with Elohim. And, Jacob defeated God. Then, God got happy with this defeat and named Jacob as Israel (The Ever Lasting God).
Only the Wahhabi and Liver Eater take the Quran literally.
Mohamed.
@ Saker,
Sorry for 1) inserting myself in a conversation you have with Andrew,
2) staying away from any theological discussion in English because : a) I am not very fluent at English and particularly at a loss when it comes to religion (I fear for instance, the received biblical translations are quite poor), b) I am even less fluent in Latin, c) I know so very very of Greek, d) I know practically nothing of Russian and Old Slavonic; I may ask somebody I know, fluent in Latin, Greek, Russian, knowing something of Old Slavonic and a lot in religion, but is very busy, to have a turn here if she can…
“is it not also true that after Vatican II the Vatican very strongly toned down its previous hostility not only towards Orthodox Christians, but towards all other forms of religion?”
The only pre-Vatican II person I know who was a Catholic and warned particularly against Orthodoxy (without hatred; I would say she was far less hostile towards Orthodoxy than you are towards Catholicism) was the Comtesse de Ségur, née Sophie Rostopchine (the daughter of the General).
Otherwise, I have never found anything more than theological discussion, which I think is the right thing to do, it is particularly wrong to refuse to dig into the problems. Of course France and Britain are far from Orthodox countries but I have never, never felt any hostility at all, whether in Vatican II mainstream followers (but their religious indifferentism gives somehow less value to this acceptation; after all, they hate and persecute traditional Catholics because they know they are righter than themsemves, so it is hardly a compliment to be accepted by them… ;-) ) whether in SSPX and its branch the SSPX-Marian Corps. Far the contrary : of course the theological problems are known but they see well Orthodoxy is far less heretic than mainstream post-Vatican II “Catholic” world! And as far as I know, the filioque question has already been found to be a question of language, not any theological mistake or heresy, and this is fortunate because it is essential.
TR
Saker, the Ecumenical Councils were anything but. They were exactly the opposite in fact – they were organized by a political body to decide who would be excluded, not who would be included. And the people whose worldviews lost during the so-called Ecumenical Councils weren’t even invited to participate in the first place. That’s millions if not tens of millions of early Christians excluded by default, from places like Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq.
You seem to have a great deal of historical and theological knowledge but only up to a certain point; Bishop Valentinus almost became Pope in an era before the split between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, and his views on Christianity are literally unrecognizable to most Christians today.
Christianity was at its onset an alien religion – visionary, ecstatic, and hetereodox. And all of that was amputated and turned into a fast food religion, easily digestible, denuded of all its private mysticism and turned into a placebo for the laity.
If you want a good belly-laugh (after a brief vomit) then catch that female golem Masha Gessen on the Australian Broadcasting Corporation’s ‘Big Ideas’ program. The wretched creature attributes Putin’s ‘aggression’ in Ukraine to his ‘homophobia’. It is a hoot, and the nasty little psychotic is in rare form, no doubt about it.
Dearest Saker,
Remember, Prophet Mohammad (saws) was a Semite, therefore he didn’t need a translated TaNaKh. He read the TaNaKh in its original Hebrew language.
In Medina, Prophet Mohammad (saws) and Muslim used to live at the foot of the mountain (lowlander). The two tribes of Jews lived on the top of the mountain (highlander). Whenever, Prophet Mohammad (saws) used to dispense Justice to Jews, he used to do it according to their Laws, according to Hebrew TaNaKh.
Also, Prophet Mohammad (saws) created the grammar for the Semitic languages, and this grammar was inserted into TaNaKh during the 12th to 15th centuries.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
@Saker
– you will never understand us because we live in totally different universes.
Nope.
Repeating I don’t remember whom, this is your ministry.
Explain it till you’re face is blue.
Why is rationalism not up to the task assigned to it in Western civilization. I want to hear you discuss this in a way that is not divisive. Try to be accessible and free of the obsessive back and forth between Orthodox & Catholic; which completely destroys the frame of mind one needs to grasp the quality and importance of the Eastern argument, at least so far as I understand it.
In context I understand why any Orthodox Russian might properly be defensive against Papist or Western agression at this specific moment but that is a narrow and unproductive view to have in any spiritual struggle — as in, it pulls you down to the level of your opponent.
This question need not be discussed in theological terms. Doing so seems to be completely destructive. The conflict between rational and intuitive forms of consciousness is reproduced everywhere and in so many different and important ways. All of it should be interrogated by qualified people like you. Especially now.
Actually, 90% of the time this is what you already do.
Vive l’Ecosse libre!
Balaban,
You will not only receive a lot of flak (Uniates can be particularly vicious) but also you (and us) will hear a lot of the inanities genre: Constantine did that or that, Mohammad read the Tanakh in Hebrew.
The real trouble with Roman Catholicism and therefore with the Uniates is that they DO NOT HAVE Sacraments. The Holy Spirit departs the heretics and schismatics.
@Where-Wolf:you will never understand us because we live in totally different universes.
Nope (…) divisive (…) obsessive(…) completely destroys (…) defensive (…) narrow (…) unproductive (…) pulls you down (…) need not be discussed in theological terms. (…) completely destructive.
As I said, we live in totally different universes :-)
Kind regards,
The Saker
Nazi Pope replaced by feel-good PR pope. That was a good move. Talk about the Vatican persecuting “other religions,” the Vietnam War was the worst. So far.
I live in the west, in what is currently the United Kingdom, I live in Wales a small nation subdued by the English 6 centuries ago, I am a product of 2000 years of of British inter-relationships. I am orthodox and I am not a theologian, I am just a person who experiences faith. My heart bleeds when I see these divisions of hatred and greed in the world and my heart soars when I know that there are people in the world strong enough to stand up for justice.
It does seem to me that all these petty religious points are only propogated by people who wish to sow division.
@Their addition was not “filioque” but “istinnogo”.
Good to bring that thing out. There were other things where the Old Believers were unequivocally wrong: how they were crossing themselves, how they were depicting the Holy Trinity. And in a behaviour not alien to phyletism.
@Their addition was not “filioque” but “istinnogo”.
Good to bring that thing out. There were other things where the Old Believers were unequivocally wrong: how they were crossing themselves, how they were depicting the Holy Trinity. And in a behaviour not alien to phyletism.
@ Mulga Mumblebrain,
I have 27 good reasons to believe many. many Jews perished in those horrible concentration camps. Not a single doubt about it. An estimate 11,000,000 died in those camps as well and I honestly do not know why one death should trigger less [or more] pain than another.
There simply isn’t a totem pole of grieve.
But to have to witness what is done [and has been done] in their name and under the banner of their collective deaths, makes me sick to my stomach.
I don’t envy those who have to sell the Apartheid State’s narrative, where slaughter gives birth to new life [or whatever operation ‘blah, blah, blah’ was all about].
One cannot use a single brush on a canvas and call the end result ‘all encompassing.’
No matter what, one should never stop winnowing.
So many of the characters, and sophistries are recognizable from the old testament. It’s too bad people don’t actually read the old books. Then they would know about the apostate organized religions, and the political leaders, that they are the same as millenia ago.
They don’t read Isaiah, Jeremiah, and the other prophets. They don’t read about Ahab, Jezebel and Naboth and his vineyard. They don’t read about Rehoboam and the others of the house of David.
And all of those things back then and more, are happening now.
@WizOz:There were other things where the Old Believers were unequivocally wrong: how they were crossing themselves, how they were depicting the Holy Trinity. And in a behaviour not alien to phyletism.
I respectfully disagree. The way they crossed themselves was the original Christian way, as for phyletism, I don’t think that they deserve to be accused of this: they did not claim that national or cultural boundaries had to be the basis for the creation of a separate Church, as the Bulgarians and, to some degree, their Russian supporters did. I agree that they fell into the nationalistic sin of “faith of our fathers”, but they were, in fact, closer to the original Greek practice then the westernized Russians. In fact, when I read the original Old Believers texts such as the amazing “ответы Александра диакона” or the “ответы пустынножителей на вопросы иеромонаха Неофита” I am filled with awe for their authors and their immense culture.
I am deeply convinced that the roots of the Bolshevik revolution in particular and the comprehensive collapse of the Russian Empire in general can be found in the vicious slander and persecution of the Old Believers by the Russian state. Russia will never truly resurrect until she becomes aware of that deep spiritual causality.
But I really don’t want to go any further down this one. In one post I already took on both the Moscow Patriarchate and the Papacy, the last thing I need at this point is to go deep into the topic of the Old Believers lest even more of my readers come to the conclusion that I am absolutely and totally insane :-))
Cheers,
The Saker
@WizOz:You will not only receive a lot of flak (Uniates can be particularly vicious) but also you (and us) will hear a lot of the inanities genre: Constantine did that or that, Mohammad read the Tanakh in Hebrew.
I know. Comes with the territory.
The real trouble with Roman Catholicism and therefore with the Uniates is that they DO NOT HAVE Sacraments. The Holy Spirit departs the heretics and schismatics
That is absolutely undeniable and I, of course, fully agree. With the minor detail that the Holy Spirit ceases to act internally in the heretics or schismatics, but the external action of the Holy Spirit remains as it always remains with each human soul. Without such an external action, not a single person who, by his/her own wits, turn to the Church. But yes, of course, the Mysteries are – by definition – only present in the Theandric Body of Christ.
Statements to the contrary as just the product of a total lack of understanding of even basic Christian ecclesiology (this is one of the reasons I speak of “different universes”).
Cheers,
The Saker
I’ve thought ever since I heard the Kiev Church blast Moscow weeks ago.That there was a plan to ban the connection with the Moscow Patriarchate.The swine hate their own self’s so much they are trying to cut all “Russianess”out of Ukraine.
I will declare a Biased opinion here. I am Greek Orthodox not a very religious one at that.
I have met and have as friends both Roman Catholic and other Denominations. It is very surprising that the individuals that I know for surpasses the prejudised opinon about ones own Religion. Most of them are NOT AWARE OF DOGMAS even though I am.
I have come across Vicars that are wonderfull and some odious ones of all Denominations. Muslims are also on a si,milar par that the Individual most often is inclened to be good, when NOT threatened.
I am most suspicious of the Higher Catolic Church and the VATICAN Especially. They have not repented for the Crimes commited against our Byzantine Forebears, the consequensies we STILL LIVE TODAY (see Turkey). Their Enemy, and is still constant, is the Greek Language and whatever curries with it. The so called sorry that the pope uttered half hearted was met by the Athenians in a stadium with jeers, because ACTION SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. The Greeks have nothing against ordinary people of Catholic persuasion I am married to a different Denomination myself.
Ekklissia is a gathering of the faithfull and not some higher Authority to bow towards, the Church is all the believers and not the Bishop or Archbishop, The High titled Clerics ought to identify with their flock and not to command them towards obedience to Authority be it Political or otherwise. The Vatican and I men only the Vatican could help but never did it always acted deviously and underhand. In the South Americas it let down the oppressed Catholics instead of helping to alleviate their suffering, In my book, ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. Dogmas do not interest me even though I know them and when you lok at them clesely they have an AGENDA for the benefit of Somebody Being an Emperor or for a Rich Donation
In Ukraine the Vatican’s game is not going to change EVER.
Yes, I do not want either to engage in any discussion on the subject of the Old Believers. Just that I cannot have the same emotional rapport to the problem.
Radik:
Come on! You know what I mean. Reunification of the Orthodox and Catholic Church
There is no Catholic and Orthodox Churches as some sort of seperate bodies. There is one Church of Christ that is Orthodox, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic, and all the host of Christians east and west claim to be a part of it, and in fact they are a apart of it if the hold and profess the true faith. In the Roman Canon we pray: “et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicae et apostolicae fidei cultoribus – and all the Orthodox and the cultivators of the Catholic and Apostolic faith.” It is silly to speak of two Churches wither seperate names needing union, as if there are two Christs. Is Christ somehow divded?
The Church does not need to be reunited, as if Christ is divided. Rather, some people who claim to be within the Church, especially the Bishops, but even more so some of their proud theologians, need to come together again as brothers and ensure that they themselves are part of the one Church they claim to guide as shepherds or be a part of as sheep.
I am a simple Roman Catholic layman (certainly I am nobody special), and I think Saker will admit to being a simple Russian Orthodox layman. Yet I will say we are not the ones who are in schism, and I think he will agree, and I think the same thing applies to the vast majority of common folk from Lisbon to Beijing and Arkhangelsk to Addis-Abba who are baptised and profess the name of Christ.
@Saker
As I said, we live in totally different universes :-)
Agreed.
Sincerely, pull me in!
Dammerung:
Saker, the Ecumenical Councils were anything but. They were exactly the opposite in fact – they were organized by a political body to decide who would be excluded, not who would be included. And the people whose worldviews lost during the so-called Ecumenical Councils weren’t even invited to participate in the first place. That’s millions if not tens of millions of early Christians excluded by default, from places like Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq.
That is totally false. Bishops from outside the Empire of Romania participated in the Councils.
In fact, it is perfectly clear in history that the ecclesiastic bodies apart from those within the Roman Empire never viewed themselves as seperated by these councils and the condemnation of Nestorius and Eutyches. When Christians from Francia first encountered Christians in Ethiopia, India, Persia, and China, the first thing they did was to rush together and embrace each other as long lost brothers who shared the same faith, not start microscopic examination of what was beleived.
I am not really into theology, and please correct me if I am speaking nonsense, but it is my understanding that the Unate Church (aka “greek katholic”) was set up in the 16th century by the pope, together with the anti-reformation campaign, to establish the “Roman Catholic” church as the only true christian religion, and to denounce all others who claimed to be christian curches as sects or heresies, be they reformed or orthodox.
It was especially promoted in the majoritarian orthodox regions of the Habsburg empire, Transsilvania and Galicia, in an effort to reduce the influence of the orthodox churches.
During communism, it was the only religious communinity to be explicitly banned, and had its assets confiscated. During provatisations following the dissolution of the Soviet Empire and the restitution and privatisation of state assets, the struggle became a material dimension as well.
@Where-Wolf:Sincerely, pull me in!
No less sincerely, I try :-)
Kind regards,
The Saker
I’m not a particularly religious person, and my knowledge of western religion is very weak, so normally I don’t comment on religious posts here very much. I am interested in how language, culture, religious beliefs factor into how a people in a region create who they are, though. The way people express themselves is a powerful way in understanding who they are from their own pov.
Words have alternate meanings that often show cultural connections within the specific culture using the language. The Russian language is rich in this, I’ve found. First time I saw an example of this that registered, is the familiar Russian word мир (mir – world). The word is also used to mean peace – they are interchangeable in usage from what I understand. See:
http://www.multitran.ru/c/m.exe?l1=2&l2=1&s=%CC%E8%F0
The meaning implies a sense of oneness or togetherness, from what I gather from the various things mir is translated to mean at that site. Different from the way world is thought of in English, which seems to be (now) essentially a dry and impartial term. Modern western use of the term Gaia appears to more closely correspond to the Russian mir than world does.
That brings me to the cultural aspects and perhaps a difference between east and west now that is embedded in the cultures. How do we look at ourselves and our relationships with each other and equally important, with our environment (whether recognised as what we are part of or separate from).
One of the main differences between “eastern” and “western” thought can expressed by what is said of our birth. In the “west”, at birth, “we are brought into this world”, or something to that effect, in the “east”, it’s “we come from this world”, or something to that effect. Very different worldviews expressed there. In the former, one is an outsider (IE: separate, different, not a part of originally, a foreign element transferred), in the latter, a part of, an element of a cohesive whole.
Another difference between “east” and “west” is “who” is in control of our actions. Am I making this decision? Or am I a pawn of a “higher power”? Or am I that “higher power” and “I” all at the same time? Most western thought alternates between the first two. In “eastern” thought, it’s more or less the 3rd understanding. Perhaps Russian culture, reflected in the Russian language never completely disconnected from the third?
End part 1.
вот так
Part two
Peace and love, world and love…
The fun stuff: application.
LOUNA – Мир и любовь (LIVE HD)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkrpgS2qwso
Текст песни:
http://tekst-pesni.com/page/tekst-pesni-louna-mir-i-ljubov-slova
English:
Peace and love …
Peace and love …
Peace and love …
Peace and love …
In each parable has a moral
Circle shrinks into a spiral
Evil always return evil
What we sow, we will reap
I know, will save us all
Not prayer, not prayer
You look deep into yourself
And you will see that we have inside –
Peace and love …
So ask yourself this question –
How much blood, how many tears
We will take the war
To be satisfied in full
We are tired of killing
Ceased to bring
Is not it time to end the fight eh
And he took relatives to go home?
After all, we know that we all need
Only peace and love
Which is many times stronger than war
Peace and love …
And I believe that will save us all
Only peace and love!
That in the end will prevail
Peace and love …
Peace and love …
Peace and love …
Peace and love …
Peace and love …
After all, we know that we all need
Only peace and love
Which is many times stronger than war
Peace and love …
And I believe that will save us all
Only peace and love!
That in the end will prevail
Peace and love!
Incidentally, the Russian words любовь and люди sound similar to my unprofessional ears. Could love and people also have the same root as world and peace do in Russian?
вот так
Orthodox don’t sit idle either.
Vladyka Longhin (Mihail) Zhar – Abbot of the Monastery of Banceni- is Romanian
http://ruskline.ru/news_rl/2014/09/16/vladyka_longin_esli_oni_ne_ostanovyatsya_togda_ih_ostanovit_bog/
http://www.taday.ru/text/2135448.html
Soy un cristiano de “Occidente” y estoy completamente de acuerdo con su análisis.
Agradezco el esfuerzo que hace por informar.
Are we sure he is a Uniate and not a rep. of the so called “Kiev Patriarchate”?
Re creation theology and:
“I have been getting a lot of flak from offended Latin Christians about my posts in which I claim that the Vatican is the “creator” of the Ukraine and that it still plays a central role in feeding the anti-Russian and anti-Orthodox hatred in the Ukraine.”
From the FWIW(for what it’s worth) Dept see: “Metaphysical Doubts Concerning the Existence of Modern Ukraine, a 1918 Creation of the German General Staff”
http://tarpley.net/metaphysical-doubts-concerning-the-existence-of-modern-ukraine-a-1918-creation-of-the-german-general-staff/
Off topic:
“As this site grows in influence, its support needs to grow. Protecting this site is expensive. Those of us who tell you the truth and who provide explanations different from the propaganda are targets. Many efforts are made to smear us, discredit us, and, thereby, limit our audience. Government trolls and poorly informed “patriots” who defend the government but not the Constitution, attack us in comment sections and sow confusion by misrepresenting what we write. Email attacks are mounted that so swell the inbox that it becomes impossible time wise to work through the messages to find the legitimate ones to which to respond.
It will not be long before only a masochist will be willing to speak the truth in the United States or in any country of the West. ” – Paul Craig Roberts
Someone, on another thread, called him a ‘tool.’ I call him a ‘handyman,’ because he comes in handy with his take on what’s going on in the world.
Everything on this planet is create out of less than 100 different chemical components. Not much, indeed, but as with information, use different resources, follow your gut and draw your own conclusions.
Alex ‘I’ve got a frigging big bullhorn’ Jones’ wife and 2 kids can get free housing in the Apartheid State. Is that the kind of person you trust more?