As Carter spun it four months before the signing, LEMOA rules that US forces “may” be deployed to India under special circumstances. Essentially, Delhi will allow Washington to refuel and keep contingents and equipment in Indian bases – but only in case of war.
In theory, India is not offering the US any permanent military base. Yet considering the Pentagon’s track record that may of course change in a flash.
No wonder Indian nationalists were outraged – insisting there is no strategic gain out of this gambit, especially for a nation that is very proud of being one of the founders of the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM).
The cozying up to the Pentagon happens just a few months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi – who had been denied a US visa for nearly a decade – addressed a joint meeting of Congress in a blaze of glory, declaring that India and the US are natural allies” and calling for a closer partnership.
Modi went no holds barred, even referring to Gandhi’s influence on Rev. Martin Luther King’s nonviolent civil disobedience strategy – something that could not but earn him a standing ovation in Capitol Hill.
The “closer” partnership does involve military and nuclear issues. As Modi reminded Congress – which needed no reminding – the industrial-military complex sold weapons to India “from almost zero to $10 billion in less than a decade.”
Then there’s the US-India nuclear cooperation deal, which opens a window for US corporations to build and supply Indian nuclear power reactors. And eventually Washington is bent to share “some” – and the operative concept is “some” – military technology with Delhi.
Geopolitically, this all boils down to what happened recently in the Philippine Sea, as the US, Japan and India practiced anti-submarine warfare and air defense maneuvers; practical evidence of the “pivot to Asia”, as in re-tweaking Asia’s naval-security “order” to counteract – who else – China.
Modi performs geopolitical yoga
Yet things are not as black and white – from the Indian point of view. It’s no secret that key sectors of the Indian diaspora in the US are quite integrated with the Washington consensus and usual suspect hegemony mechanisms such as the Council on Foreign Relations and the Rand Corporation. But Modi’s game is way more sophisticated.
Modi’s priority is to solidify India as the top South Asian power. So he cannot afford to antagonize Washington. On the contrary; he’s getting the US on board his vastly ambitious Make in India strategy (“a major national initiative designed to facilitate investment; foster innovation; enhance skill development; protect intellectual property; and build best-in-class manufacturing infrastructure.”)
Naturally, US corporations – heavy supporters of TPP – are salivating at the lucrative prospects. The drive is similar to what China did decades ago, but now with emphasis on “protection of intellectual property” to attract the TPP-obsessed crowd.
Another geopolitical Modi goal is to forcefully present India – not Pakistan – to Washington as the ideal reliable/rational partner in South Asia. That’s dicey, because for the Pentagon the multiple declinations of the war on terra in AfPak are de facto being configured as something like Operation Enduring Freedom Forever.
And then there’s once again the military angle: India diversifying its weapons suppliers – mostly it buys from Russia – towards the US, but not that much, establishing a careful balance.
This is a balance between the US and BRICS, in itself is the hardest nut to crack. As Beijing admits in no uncertain terms, “BRICS faces the risk of retrogressive, rather than progressive, cooperation because of new, intricate circumstances.”
Talk about a diplomatic euphemism for the ages. And this as Washington will go no holds barred to
contain China behind the First Island Chain in the South China Sea while there’s not much Delhi can do to contain Myanmar providing Beijing with total access to the Indian Ocean via Pipelineistan, ports and high-speed rail.
Meet INSTC
At the next BRICS summit in Goa next month, some of these geopolitical intricacies will be quietly discussed behind closed doors. BRICS may be in disarray, with Brazil under regime change, Russia under sanctions and India flirting with the US. But BRICS remains committed to serious institutional moves, such as the New Development Bank (NDB), the push towards trading in their own currencies and a multi-pronged politico/economic drive towards a multipolar world.
This drive is graphically in effect when we examine one of the key – unreported – Eurasian integration stories; the symbiosis between India and Iran. Delhi counts on Tehran to up its game as an economy propelled by natural gas as well as profiting in the long run from the perfect – Persian – gateway to Central Asian markets.
The key hub of course is the port of Chabahan. The highlight of a Modi visit to Tehran four months ago was a Chabahar contract between India Ports Global Private Limited and Arya Banader of Iran. That’s about “development and operation for 10 years of two terminals and 5 berths with cargo handling”.
There’s way more; development of Special Economic Zones (SEZs) and essential road/rail links from Iran to Afghanistan and further into Central Asia. India will then have direct access to Afghanistan, bypassing Pakistan. It does not hurt that Delhi and Kabul are already strategic partners.
Chabahar is only 500 km east of the ultra-strategic Strait of Hormuz.
In the near future, we might as well see a configuration where the Indian Navy has the right to use Chabahar while the Chinese Navy has the right to use Gwadar, in Pakistan, only 150 km by sea east of Chabahar. Nothing that BRICS dialogue – or the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) – could not keep on smooth sailing mode.
For Iran, this is a certified “win-win” game. Iran not only will be connected to the Chinese One Belt, One Road (OBOR); but it will also solidify yet another trade/transportation corridor in Eurasia; the International North-South Transportation Corridor (INSTC) between the Indian Ocean and Central Asia. Key INSTC members happen to be Iran, India and… Russia. Talk about, once again, the interpenetration of BRICS and the SCO.
The Big Picture ahead under Modi’s long term planning does not look like Delhi subjected to the role of flagrant vassal of Washington. India needs certified stability with all key players – from the US to China, considering the master plan is to lift 1.3 billion Indians close to the living standards of middle-class Chinese.
China had a head start. India may take up to 2050 to do it. Meanwhile, it’s not to India’s interests to actively join any US policy of China containment or encirclement, be it “pivot” or “rebalance”. It’s more like India, in a Gandhian way, will be practicing the fine art of nonviolent, forceful neutrality.
I have personally never trusted India.
The God of India known as Shiva is also the name given to a period of mourning after the death of a Hebrew (Jew). A Yeshiva is a Hebrew School. Shiva is called the destroyer in Indian God myth. And what about the Thugges where the English word thug comes from in the early 19th century in India who would join with a group of wealthy travelers. When they were ready, in advance, they would dig shallow graves, then strangle the wealthy travelers, bury them in the shallow graves, and walk off with their riches. The British and East India Co. tried to find out who their leaders were by implanting a British officer amongst their group. I believe that thousands of the Thugges died rather than snitch on their leaders. May I guess that it was the tribe who owned the East India company. I guess that the Thugges just morphed out of the ground, huh. And what about the so called Star of David? It is also displayed on the Kubera Yantra, a talisman of sorts that is supposed to bring wealth to anyone who has one. Kuber was the God of wealth for the people of India. He was supposedly deformed. From what I have read about him, he was initially a demon of the underworld and supposedly married a demon. I have read many who say that the Hebrews initially came from India. I Could br wrong for mistrusting the Indians but then I have read of rabbis who wanted to do away with the white race. Could this be the reason?
Incidentally, what happened to this meeting that Russia had called for the United Nations security council. It seems to have disappeared into outer space.
If you look back you see that all groups who share info European languages also share the same pantheon of gods. For the Jews, their God is one of that pantheon (none before me) but I can’t remember which one.
Religious symbols are ancient and cross many borders and cultures.
It’s a fairly interesting study really.
The Nazi German swastika comes from the Sanskrit word svastika (Devanāgarī: स्वस्तिक), meaning “lucky or auspicious object.” It is considered to be a sacred and auspicious symbol in Hinduism and Buddhism,[Wikipedia]. The Nazi’s stole the Indian good luck symbol.
And yes, most of the European languages, including Russian, are of Indo European origin. “Today, 46% of the human population speaks an Indo-European language, by far the most of any language family.” [Wikipedia]. There is another grouping called the Indo-Iranian languages (Aryan) but that’s not so prevalent in Europe.
The swastika,also known as a “hooked cross” was also an ancient European Christian symbol. Which is from where the nazis picked it up from.Long before the nazis, Empresses Alexandra of Russia (a German-British Princess at birth) was very attached to that ancient cross symbol. The shape ,though not the meaning of it was also used by ancient native American peoples as a design. There are old pictures,also before the nazis,showing American Indian tribal youth playing American football. With that symbol marked on their shirts. So while it was used in India. That was not the only source of its use.Nowadays,because of the nazi association,its anathema,throughout most of the World.And anyone knowing that,and using it,is automatically assumed (almost always rightly so) to be a nazi supporter.
No. The swastika comes from a mirror image of a Tibetan character.
Wow Alan,
that’s amazing! I guess the fact that this symbol is found through out India thousands of years before the existence of the Tibet alphabet and before the formation of Tibetan nationhood is just a strange coincidence, and the fact that it is called a swastika (Sanskrit word) for thousands of years before is also a strange coincidence.
So you do recognize, Alan, that Tibetan culture that is being subjected to genocide under the illegal occupation of Beijing, has far deeper roots in common with Indian culture… and none in common with the so-called “Han” culture that China uses to bolster its pretensions of nationhood?
As much as in common as whiteman’s or American Indian’s culture with Indians.
For el free to own the world. No need to be thy.
Your behavior in Kashmir area really tells how much they are part of china.
By the way, it seems indian thugs, including your army, has special way of showing north east , oriental look women their culture by singling them out, raping them.
Let’s forget about history that under no time Tibetan interested in you, let’s talk about your treatment of minorities, people different than you, I think you can put the idea of Tibet away for ever, no matter how much you act like your white master. It is a pipe dream for you. If butt kicking of 1962 is not enough for you, try something fancy , we will instill fear into you for next 500 years, if not 5000.
Correction for second and third paragraph. I am on my cell:
“Feel” free to own the world. No need to be thy.
Your behavior in Kashmir area really tells how much they are part of “India”.
@Uncle Bob1
I think you need to do a little more research on this. Your statement is plain wrong, the Europeans (UK and Nazi Germany) used the pure Indian Appelation: Swast-tikka “mark/symbol of suspiciousness/etc”
The word is pure Sanskrit/Prakrit/Hindi. If it had been appropriated from an ancient Christian source they would have used that appellation instead of the Indic one.
The swastika symbol was in use in India during the Indus Valley Civilization period, 3300 – 1300 BC, thats way before any Christians ever existed.
OK,here is my last (hopefully) post on this subject. Yes the name Swastika was taken from Sanskrit. But that is an imported name. For the centuries that “design” was used in other countries there were many names used for it. And yes,it was used in the Indus Valley Civilization. But the “design” was also at various times independently used in other cultures with no connection to India. Seriously,is it that hard for people to think that a design of a bunch of lines could be thought of by humans in many societies in a period of thousands of years.Lastly,the nazi use of it came from its old Germanic use. I’m not saying it wasn’t first used in India.I’m only saying the “reasons” the nazis used it.
This should explain this design for anyone interested. Pay attention to the sections on worldwide usage:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
Uncle Bob,
Modern German philosophers have a documented history of ‘borrowing’ ‘Aryan’ symbols and other things from Sanskrit texts. This is documented clearly in Rajiv Malhotra’s ‘Breaking India’. He names the names of the German philosphers and contrasts how the Germans mined Sanskrit texts to build their identity and contrasts with the way the British mined Sanskrit texts to build their own separate identity. If read his book you will even get the names of the various notables.
English shopkerpers race did not even know of swastica untill the germabs told them about it by studying Hindu scripts and languages .consider that germabs started getting acquanited with hindu indua only in late 1700s while english shopkeepers were there since 1650 ad ut were hardly interested in culture of country they were allowed to trade in after many decades of please from english quuens and kings.
That is kind of how I was thinking too. Russia doesn’t seem overly worried about India’s dealings with the US. So I think that they think of India becoming a “neutral” country. And that might actually be a good thing.
Writer may be forgot to mention, what happening just after the LEMOA deal.
India and the United States will hold military exercises near the border with China [Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/20160912/1045207339/india-us-china-drills.html%5D.
Yes, at the border with China, not very Gandhian way.
Next, Modi’s speech in human right violation in Pakistani Belochistan [Read more: http://thewire.in/66619/india-radio-programming-balochi-language-get-interactive-todays-launch-website-mobile-app/%5D. You needn’t to be an expert to draw the connection between Gwadar – China – Arab sea and Balochistan.
Well, you may argue on whether if there any real Human Right Violation?
— Don’t you find the clear copy-cat of US tone on something called Human Right Violation? As well, is the somebody called butcher of Gujrat calling something Human Right? Who had been barred from US & EU visa for years.
Well, I may be wrong, but if anybody still thinking, India would act as she did in 60/70’s, I bet they are more wrong than me.
Moreover, it is important to notice – relation between India and other countries in South Asia. Lets start from Sri-Lanka. It was most down from the time Lanka clearing LTTE. In, August 2016, Lanka-China sign agreement to build sea port [India had enough try to stop it].
Due to illegal sanction on road transport facility to Nepal’s petroleum and other necessary goods, relation between India – Nepal is in lowest ever. Increasing relationship between China-Nepal.
With all political and international support India is backing the current Bangladeshi government, where democracy is under crackdown. Many opposition media and journalist is in jail, a huge number of non-judiciary killing among opposition leaders.It is also important to mention that, in last general election 154 seats was uncontested [total 300 seats].
We know clearly the relation between India – Pakistan.
Now, left Bhutan & Maldives. So far I knew with Maldives, India have a military agreement, and base some Indian military equipment. With Bhutan, no idea.
Moreover, Indian internal problem is huge. Except the political and economic situation, it got decade long problem in Kashmir, problem in Aasam and ever increasing security issue in sever sisters (Nagaland, Mizoram, Tripura etc.).
India is a big country with huge population, and she also got dream. So, the Indian neutrality and Gandhian way of media flash, may turn into myth.
You are correct but even optimstic. Read the book “India shattering the illusions” to understand the real India
In the interests of full disclosure I am a Pakistani.
Modi and those who have power in Bharat have an eschatology in which they wish to re-assert Bharat’s hegemony. They have a convergence of interests with the Zionist movement. IMHO Bharat is Israel’s most strategic ally after the US. It is no surprise that Bharat is moving closer to the Zionist controlled US.
Should Modi et al continue on in Bharat then BRICS may end up losing I.
You are right. Bharat does not wish to see CPEC continue on and neither does the US, as this will change the balance of power in the Arabian Sea hence destabilization/terror attacks happening in Balochistan via Afghanistan. Of course it does not help that many in Pakistan are corrupt and insincere to Pakistan, including politicians in opposition and government. IMHO if this internal problem was sorted out that it would make it x10 difficult for the Zionist-RSS convergence to work her nefarious deeds.
Sorry to say Modi = double headed snake
It is not for congratulating myself, but I predicted that India would take the path on which she bogged herself from the day she instituted the ‘International Yoga Contortionists Day’ (just joking). In actual fact, the first indications were the gloating of the assorted think tanks and Centres for Strategic & International Studies, on the “historic” outcome of the elections that smashed the ‘Congress Party and the Gandhi dynasty’. India rushed to strengthen the ‘trilateral and quadrilateral’ dialogues aimed at ‘containing China’ and making anti-Chinese noises.
A fairly balanced article by Pepe. It is noteworthy that the tiny number of anti-Indian trolls in the comments section have been duly ignored; this is progress.
It is exactly right that India wishes to maintain neutrality to maximize its geopolitical and trade options, no different than Putin. Putin would like good relations with all power blocs, he has reached out to the West many times. It is not his fault that it is the West that has behaved irrationally and hatefully with Russia. However, if you asked Putin if he wants to be neutral (maximizing Russia’s trade and geopolitical options) or part of an alliance he has categorically stated he favors the former.
Russia has supported Vietnam’s position over China’s regarding the South China Sea, Russia continues to supply deadly naval weapons to Vietnam while maintaining good relations with China. That the reality of realpolitik.
Just like Russia/Putin if the West made demands of India that were detrimental to India’s survival (as the West has done with Russia), then neutrality will go out the door (as it did with Putin).
Irrespective of perceived neutrality, the vast bulk of Strategic Foreign Contracts from India continue to go to Russia:
10-20 nuclear power plants to Russia vs 1 Nuke plant EDF/Areva of the West.
Nuke attack subs from Russia
272 Su-30SM/MKI from Russia
The FGFA/PAK-FA co-financed by India and developed by Russia. vs only 40 French Raphael fighters
Cancellation of EU-Airbus transport aircraft contract and re-awarding to ILLYUSHIN of Russia
etc etcetera.
The bulk of the big money contracts continue to go to Russia and have increased under Modi.
This only reinforces that it is Russia that is the glue that binds the BRICS (RIC) together, because it it has strong compelling relations with the two diverging members India and China.
Russian did no such thing. Just search the net.
Russia Supports China’s Stance on South China Sea – Sputnik
@Ron
I repeat Russia continues to supply Vietnam with deadly naval weapon systems (subs, ships) and anti-ship sea-skimming missiles (klub?) as well as having given India permission to sell to Vietnam the even more accurate supersonic sea-skimming Brahmos missile.
And yes I stand partially corrected, Russia has negated the authority of UNCLOS-ICR decision on the philipines.
However, Russia has not supported China’s political position and claims in the South China Sea.
Initially Russia stayed silent on the issue, only a few days ago Putin made a clear statement disavowing the ICR-UNCLOS decision that favored the philipines – But not on the substance of the arguments but on the legality of it. Meaning that his objection is how can the decision be binding if one of the parties (China) was not present and therefore could not present it’s arguments. But even before this, Putin correctly points out that a 3rd party cannot insert itself as legal arbiter unless both disputing parties (Philipines AND China) jointly agree to the arbitration.
India would have to be politically blind not to realise that virtually everywhere that the US has a presence, disorder including bloody wars follow. For India, already faced with internal contradictions that intermittently break out in bloody violence, US inspired violence/disorder will likely result in the balkanisation of India. Present day ‘India’ was the creation of the British Raj. It remains to be seen whether this creation can survive the centrifugal forces of the 21st century intact!
Steve Chow
I fully agree with the concerns you raise and have addressed it in earlier comments further down.
You observations are astute.
—> and nationalist leaders in India openly talk about how “they” are still trying to break us. “they” being: US/UK/Australia. Indian Intelligence has regularly caught Australian operatives funneling weapons into evangelical Christian terrorist groups in India’s North-East. In addition, certain factions within the US continue to undermine India and it’s culture by labeling Indian Nationalists as Fascists (they’ve duped a lot idiotic leftwing-oriented ignorant parrots in the West to re-regurgitate this nonsense thru repetition of this propaganda in their MSM – the BBC in particular spews this garbage) and by funding Soros-style NGOs, radical Western Christian evangelical fronts and via Western Owned Hindi/Indian-lang Indian TV Channels (STAR is owned by News Corp/Rupert Murdoch, Colors-18 is owned by Sumner Redstone’s Viacom, english lang NDTV is affiliated with General Electric/MSNBC.) That is how terribly the Indian Media is infiltrated by Western Corporate media.
Despite the above, the Indian Nationalists are confident that they will neutralize these attempts to balkanize India they openly talk about it on Hindi/Tamil/Marathi mass media outlets. The Modi govt has banned many large and small NGOs as well as shutdown Indian NGOs receiving funds from abroad (similar to Putin’s wise law on NGOs).
But your point is still valid and very important: Witness the poisoned Chalice the West served to China when China, in good faith, opened up their economy and started reforms in compliance with the West; the US George Herbert Walker Bush Administration still attempted to destroy China by instigating the fake Tiananmen Gang Chang fake student protests. It appears to be the first Soros/CIA color revolution attempt. It would have led to the deaths on millions, but the Nazi-like lie-making machine of the Western MSM tried to portray the failure of this coup as a human-rights disaster.
Question for you Mirror:
I’ve come across a Dalit woman claiming Modi has a Brahmin-caste policy of ‘untermenschen’ towards Dalits.
The so-called ‘untouchables’.
Is this true?
I had thought the nationalist Hindu movement has effectively abolished caste-privileged distinctions.
Yet it is undeniable that there is serious poverty and discrimination in India, not to mention a roaring trade in female exploitation – prostitition in General and womb-prostitution latterly.
There have also been major scandals relating to forced sterilization and abortion – at least nine women died as a result of one initiative.
That said, India is huge, a sub-continent.
How much of this appalling exploitation and abuse can be laid at the door of governance?
How much is down to agendas operating independently by foreign NGOs and local collusion?
Eimar,
I have just seen your query:
I’ll post a detailed point by point response to your questions (good questions) when I get a few cycles of time; right now work intervenes.
Mirror
Re:
Question for you Mirror:
Dear Eimar,
Sorry for the long delay in response, but I was waiting for the 90th anniversary speech by the RSS chief and subsequent English language discussion by experts before submitting a response to you. I will re-post the below video in a more recent Saker forum when they create an open-comments thread (as they sometimes do). I hope you get this response.
From DD-News (the State run TV channel):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9QHp2P-Dos
In this English-Language panel discussion one of the panelists is the DD-News editor and the other is, Shaker Iyer, the Editor of the Deccan Herald, a Center-Left pro-Congress newspaper (Congress have traditionally Anti-RSS), the host, Mark Lynn is an Anglican-Protestant. It is noteworthy that even pro-Congress Shaker Iyer debunks a lot of the Anti-RSS propaganda flogged by the Western (esp British/Canadian/Australian) MSM.
I’ve come across a Dalit woman claiming Modi has a Brahmin-caste policy of ‘untermenschen’ towards Dalits.
The so-called ‘untouchables’.
Is this true?
Ans: No. It is not true; as the attached video discussion shows, the RSS has been anti-caste since inception. Modi, himself, is from an officially recognized so-called low caste himself. He is an RSS cadre and is anti-caste in belief and policy
I had thought the nationalist Hindu movement has effectively abolished caste-privileged distinctions.
Ans:And you were and are right.
Yet it is undeniable that there is serious poverty and discrimination in India,
Ans: Yes that is true
not to mention a roaring trade in female exploitation – prostitition in General and womb-prostitution latterly.
Ans: Womb-rental/Surrogacy for money has just been banned by the Modi government; last month the BJP passed legislation outlawing commercial surrogacy (esp for foreigners) and allow only voluntary in the case of child-less close relatives and friends,
There have also been major scandals relating to forced sterilization and abortion – at least nine women died as a result of one initiative.
I am unaware of this, but, unlike in other countries it would be against the law.
That said, India is huge, a sub-continent.
How much of this appalling exploitation and abuse can be laid at the door of governance?
Ans: Much of it. As well as people’s ignorance, greed and bad attitudes. And I should add, and this is very important, the feudal rentier culture that the British imposed on India, where, for the 1st time in Indian history landowners where forced by the British to go into the forest to extort taxes from the forest dwelling people as Taxes owed to the Crown. That’s the irony, the British are the ones who created this culture and machinery of exploitation in India and then their shameless BBC goes around pointing fingers at these evils which the British themselves created.
How much is down to agendas operating independently by foreign NGOs and local collusion?
Ans: All I know is that many foreign funded NGOs create 5th columnists and divisions while gathering intelligence for the Western billionaire class that rule the Anglo-Empire. They research and create what is known as “atrocity literature” to inflame and balkanize society
India will remain as one country. Unity in diversity is the theme. India has one culture and almost all the languages have their origin in Sanskrit.
All those contracts that indua has with russua is because russia is too generous with giving to india what otgers will ne er give to india _5th generation war planes nuke submarines etc.
Russia must not trust india_and i say that an an indian
Hmm…it’s obviously a multi-layered situation here, as big as a world, or a large part of it anyway. I hope Pepe’s optimism is well founded. I’m pretty much an optimist myself, but Andrew Korybko is a little more concerned – he just published a piece at Katehon that’s well worth reading.
He sees India’s deep hatred of Pakistan as a factor very much in play, and no doubt exacerbated by the US. As India has moved to demonize Pakistan, and to further repress Kashmir, India’s partners Russia and China have been prompted to intensify their relationships with Pakistan in counter-balance. Korybko paints a picture of India playing not simply a sophisticated game here but a perilous and ultimately self-defeating one.
Personally, I can’t help but think of Modi’s dalliance with the west as being similar to Erdogan’s, who thought he could play both sides against each other and not be engulfed. Erdogan ultimately had to learn, and choose. I suspect this is what India must do one day, but apparently that day is yet far off.
Both authors point to the upcoming BRICS summit in Goa next month. The signals from that summit will be of enormous import.
Here’s Andrew’s piece: Here’s What The Uri Attack In Kashmir Has To Do With Russia And China
Grieved, I have suspected that due to the tone of Andrew Korybko’s articles on India/South Asia, he has fallen into the trap of reading and believing English medium resources on the India and South Asia in general. Pepe Escobar is much closer to the mark. Please do not mistake me, Andrew has great expertise, but I fear that the sheer volume of misinformation – 300-500 years in the production – has misled him. In fact, it misleads most Indians.
In fact, it misleads most Indians.?
Trying to add up what you have said there. It sounds as though Korybko understands most Indians if he is reading off the same page as them.
No Peter, you are mistaken. My words meant exactly what they said – most Indians do not understand what is going on around them. Out of 1100 million, only a small proportion know or care or have the means and time to be able to worry about such things as the fate of the nation state of India and the legacy of the civilisation passed since ancient times that centres around Dharmic frameworks.
It is my opinion as a person who studies these affairs that Andrew has used sources that are leading him to incorrect conclusions. To compare India and Pakistan is laughable on many levels. It is much greater than even comparing the power (and moral authority) of modern Russia with the occupied Ukraine borderlands and their comprador elites, but that is pretty much the best comparison – since the north-west regions of the sub-continent are in fact the borderlands.
I think the “small portion” of Indians are fanning all out on internet, baring them self in vulgar language toward any one who disagree. this “small portion” also called Hindu Elite whom Modi stir up from bottom of history pond that should have better left buried, they are also control India’s policy…
LOL, if you type “Vulgar message” in google, “Vuglar message in hindi” will come as a suggestion.
It is a pet talking point for some people here compare Pakistan to Ukraine. Except we all know Russians has done all they can helping Ukrainians, at extreme of taking excessive lose financially and in amount of Russian lives. Under no circumstance did Russian fan or encourage internal conflicts in Ukraine. But you are free to justify India’s treatment of Pakistan, Kashmir, and many other occupied area with Russia’s treatment of Ukraine.
Facts matter not crude propaganda:
-Indian took over and paid off all of Pakistan’s debt during Independence.
-India unilaterally issued most favored nation status to Pakistan on trade matters by the Pakistanis did not reciprocate.
-India released/repatriated 90,000 Pakistani army POWs back to Pakistan after decisively defeating Pakistan in the 1971 war. This was done as goodwill gesture because the PAK civilian govt indicated they would not survive in power if the POWs are sent Bangladesh where they were wanted for war crimes such as mass rape and mass murder (1-4 million civilians were killed). Had the Pakistani POWs been sent back to Bangladesh most would have been tried and executed.
The list goes on and on.
The equivalence of Pakistan being to India what Ukraine is to Russia is wholly appropriate.
Yes, and Russian trying to isolate Ukraine, and threaten to invade Ukraine at every turn./S
Yes Russia does not hesitate to kill, destroy, maim and isolate Islamic terrorists that try to kill Russia citizens in Russia. Russia would not hesitate to take action against state sponsors of Islamist terrorism that target Russia, likewise does India.
I think that settles the matter.
Wasn’t Modi inciting terror in Balochistan very recently? Wan’t Modi’s India killed 81 unarmed Kashmir civilians in 2 month, and blind hundreds Kashmir youth in 2 weeks?
Are you sure Kashmir belong to India? Are you sure you want Kashmir belong to India? Have any government ever intentionally blind its “own” youth in human history?
Dear Mr. J.
Your ignorance regarding the Indian subcontinent is showing thru again: The Prime Minister of Pakistan, Nawaz Sharif, openly admitting that not only has Pakistan committed abuses against the Baloch, but in fact crimes/atrocities using the Urdu/arabic word “Zulm”. Since you are lacking skills in Indic languages, I have provided the video of Pak PM Sharif admitting to the atrocities committed against the Baloch with English subtitles. Sharif did while standing next to Baloch leader Sardar Attaullah Mengal, here is the video clip (the admission by Nawaz Sharif begins after 56 seconds into the video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXc5ah1bNpQ
Your credibility and qualifications in this matter speak for themselves. You aren’t going to convince anyone any further.
Yes i think Andrew’s post is more substantive on the Indian psyche under Modi. As i said, to understand India better, check out the relatively new book “india shattering the illusions”
@Alan
that’s because you are thoroughly ignorant on the Topic of India, nor can you get first hand knowledge of the facts regarding that country and it’s culture because you can not speak nor understand the languages of the sub continent. This is on top of your lack of objectivity as evidenced by previously jingoistic boasts about how China “trounced” India in 1962 among several other hostile statements in the past and here too. Therefore your opinion has little credibility and is not based on substantive analysis.
You are the least qualified to make accurate judgements of the Indian psyche, judging it based of the idiocy of the Brown-Englishmen English Language sold out crowd and media of India, you will draw utterly wrong conclusions.
User “Student” is right, he had eloquently summarized the problem with analysts that base their work on already distorted sources – you should heed user”student”‘s words, at least those who are serious intellectuals who are interested in the facts should heed his words, it would be pointless to expect this from the willfully ignorant.
Idk. Am still digesting the 100s of photos from the new book “india shattering the illusuons”. Those are facts….
I am very much agree with you, however, I do not think there will be anything come out of Goa. IMHO What is happening now in India is a (counter) culture revolution of sort. The reasonable voice are silenced by Hindu nationalist. They are going backwards. As the only reasonable commentator I read past two years post a answer to an attack by an so called Hindu elite that litters internet comment section: “you… Only good to assault helpless minorities and dalits and that too under police protection.”
I still can not see their point of hating China for the war the started and lost. As well as the point of trying to undermining Pakistan at every turn for they are pretty much same people with different religion.
If they really think Kashmirs as their own, will they kill 81 unarmed civilian in 2 month, and systematically blind hundreds of youth in the valley?
I do not think Ergodon killed unarmed civilians, or intentionally blind youth of any Turkish people.
Let’s not forget Modi is step in in Afghanistan to fill the vacuum US left with US’s help. So far so good there.
Andrew’s article is very much spot on.
Oh I also want Russian to know, Indian commentators up down internet are reminding you that they spend billions buy your tech, you can not afford to lose them. I am glad to see Andrew addressed this.
Andrew Korybko is 100% right in all his analysis. India in fact, does not really belong geographically to Eurasia (as Kashmir, Pakistan, Afghanistan, South-East Asia do) but rather to Oceania. India the subcontinent is, in reality, a cul-de-sac where different cultures coming from the north amalgamated with the ‘oceanic’ ones, and it looked rather ‘south’. There can be no doubt that India is in the grip of a nationalistic paranoia with delusions of grandeur, shrewdly exploited by the US, which can have devastating effects. The mistrust in India’s actions expressed for quite a long time by observers is vindicated. It increasingly looks like India is assuming the role of wrecker of the OBOR, of the BRICS and SCO.
In fact it is China that has no place in Eurasia. China (such as it is) consists of littoral kingdoms which hugged the eastern Pacific coast of Asia, with some intrusions into regional river valleys of the Hwang-Ho and the Yangtze Kiang. China never existed as an integrated national entity except as a colonial possession of various foreign empires… Ming, Qing, Mongol etc. Its cultural affinity with the territories and peoples under its illegal occupation… Tibet and Xinjiang… is nonexistent. Compare the fact that Indo-European languages are spoken across the Himalayas, past the Caucasus and all the way into Europe.
Russia and India have close ties, defense and otherwise. Russia is not turning to Pakistan anytime soon. Russia has negative GDP growth. What does it hope to get from a beggar state Pakistan? Peanuts!
Please read Andrew Korybko with large doses of salt on this subject. He has now swallowed hook, line and sinker, the legitimacy of the imperialist partition plot that led to the division of India and creation of Pakistan. Just sample this recent observation of his on Katehmon:
“there’s truth to the claim that the UK created the international conditions for the India-Pakistan partition, but domestic problems between Hindus and Muslims during the late colonial period made division inevitable, even if this ultimately was predetermined to play into London’s divide-and-rule favor. ”
The reality:
(a) Huge amounts of research have been done in recent years which have given fresh reinforcements to the already well-established truth of how Churchill and the Brits created the “domestic” division in India.
(b) Out of 11 provinces in British India, 5 were muslim majority. In the 1937 elections, Muslim League (which proposed partition) could not get a majority and form its own govt. even in a single province. Brits were aghast. Congress and Gandhians ruled one Muslim-majority province, Northwest Frontier Province (NWFP) now known as Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa. In two provinces, Bengal and Punjab, Muslim-led parties/leaders who were against the two-nation theory formed govts. Brits were particularly hard on these. (In one province, Sind, there was a succession of shifting coalitions, sometimes including the Muslim League minority group and sometimes not.)
(c) Fazlul Haque, had his own Workers and Peasants party in Bengal, with both Muslim and Hindu support.He was Premier of Bengal after 1937. British Governor, Sir John Herbert, intrigued against him continually. He got him to resign on the Governor’s own false pretences of forming an all-party govt and then , within a month got a Muslim League Govt. with a majority provided by 25 “European” members of the Provincial Assembly, for which there was provision in the 1935 Govt of India Act promulgated by the Brits. So much for Korybko’s “.. it was domestic problems of Hindus and Muslims…”.
(d) President Roosevelt and Marshall Stalin both favoured a national govt in India in 1942, as such a Govt would then have voluntarily joined the war effort. Remember we had the battalions, in the form of our population with millions trainable as soldiers. Had Roosevelt succeeded, Indian troops could have opened the second front the way both Stalin and Roosevelt had wanted it in 1942-43 itself and the war could have been concluded 2 years earlier.Millions of Jewish lives could have been saved.But Churchill’s religion was that all black, brown and yellow people must be in obedience to European colonial rulers. Roosevelt pressed him, and he lied like a trooper. “Three-quarters of the Indian troops fighting with the allies are Muslims”, he wrote to Roosevelt. Was’nt true. 65% were HIndus and Sikhs, 35% were Muslim. Anyway, that was not the point. When Subash Bose formed the Indian National Army(INA) , with Indian soldiers after the Brits made them surrender to the Japs in Singapore, 40% of those who joined in the INA were Muslims.Finally, Roosevelt got exasperated and threatened Churchill in a strong letter that “if as a result of your failure to have a national govt iin India, the Japs make further inroads, public opinion in America would incline to reconsider the alliance with Great Britain”
(e) Meanwhile British intrigues continued. In Sind, Allah Bux was a Muslim and a Premier of Sind who opposed the Two-nation theory . He was assassinated and the police complaint named also the Muslim League leader as a suspect. The Brits killed the investigation and no-one was punished for the assassination.. In 1946, the Sind assembly voted on a no-confidence motion against the Muslim League-associated provincial govt. Majority of the elected members voted against the govt and it should have fallen. But, a “European” member nominated by the British Governor of Sind voted in favour of the MuslimLeague-sponsored govt and the govt survived by a single vote.That Governor, Sir Francis Mudie, after the v ote, the very next day, called one of the independent Muslim members, Mohd Talpur Mir and told him, “you know, all Muslims must stick together, I’ll make you a Minister if you join the Muslim League”. Had the Govt fallen , there would have been one less govt with the Muslim League and Pakistan movement would have
weakened.
(f) I must admit that we in the Indian National Movement , were guilty of a betrayal . We betrayed our own people in NWFP. Gandhi had said that the bravest fighters for non-violence were the Pathans of NWFP. But on MOuntbatten’s and the Brit insistence, we agreed that for NWFP< it would not be the Provincial Assembly that would decide on joining India or Pakistan, but a referendum would be held. And there is evidence that the Brits rigged the referendum.(They also rigged an election in Sind in order to get a Muslim League Govt in alte 1946).
(g) Had Roosevelt lived , Partition would not have happened. Once Truman succeeded Roosevelt, the Brits started inriguing double time and set Truman on the path of a cold war. Roosevelt had only contempt for European colonials , including the Brits and the French. I believe that Nehru was the only leader clued into geopolitics and he could sense the shifting currents under Truman. And Mountbatten was skilled diplomatically and made an offer of independence within a couple of months which we found irresisitible.
(h) So, the story of India's partition has the british fingerprint all over. Lat year, the West Bengal Govt declassified all Cabinet proceedings of Bengal from 1940 to 1956. Even the Great Calcutta Killing of August 1946 (which Korybko may be thinking of when he refers to "domestic trouble between Hindus and Muslims") , it now turns out was mainly planned by the British Governor, Sir Frederick Burrows (I'm unsure of the name). The tendency has been to blame Suhrawardy, the Muslim League Premier of Bengal and Jinnah who gave a call at that time for Direct Action to secure Pakistan. But in the cabinet meeting that reviewed the riots, 4 times, we ahve Suhrawardy asking why the army was inactive, and 4 times the Goernor says, ".. we'll discuss that later.." Actually Maulana Azad, Gandhian and Congress leader, asked an army Major why they were quiet and that man replied that those were his instuctiuons.
(i) IN 1951. Communist party of India General Secretary, Rajeswara Rao visited Moscow and Stalin told him "Pakistan is an underhand trick played on you people by the British. All of you, India, Pakistan, Burma, Srilanka must get together"
High time, I say. After Modi, perhaps. And hopefully, that may not be too distant a prospect.
One can dream big while itself is burning.
I am surprised to see Burma on the wish list. Mark my words here, if india dare to touch Burma, it will lose its so called 7 sisters all together.
And I think Burmese will welcome you with flowers. So are the Vietnamese and Japanese after you get through Burma, Thai, Laos and Cambodia.
I agree . I am not dreaming of Myanmar by any means. (Please dont call it Burma as those impertinent anglo-saxons continue to do). I was simply quoting Stalin verbatim. Of course, Stalin had only a broad idea and Burma was part of the Indian “Empire” of the Brits until 1938. For that matter, any reunion would have to be in an appropriate style, at best a confederation. In any case, Hindus and Muslims live with each other in every village in India and it is impossible to divide them into two nations except with horrendous violence. And it has compromised the position of 150 million muslims in India, even as the constitution is a secular one removed from any religion. But Western imperialism is always on the prowl to achieve precisely such inhuman outcomes. Take Tibet, for instance. All those worthies from a racist snakepit like Hollywood will come over and instigate Tibetan separatism even while millions of Tibetans live , not in Tibet but as minorities in neigbouring Chinese provinces. Whose position would be compromised if any such thing like Tibetan separation comes about. All minorities in Asian countries must beware of such friends.
If it weren’t for the British imperialism, Pakistan and Bharat would not exist. It would just have been princely states trading and fighting it out for dominance with perhaps the Mughals maintaining (? for a bit longer) some sort of overall dominace over the Indian Subcontinent. But the British colonialist and others came…and brought their “democracy” which neccessitated the major division of British India into Pakistan and Bharat.
Democracy did not neccessitate partition of any country,not India, nor Ireland, Cyprus, palestine, Borneo/Indonesia , or any of the numerous nations divided by British intrigues. The British resorted to separate electorates based on religion, to create divided identities. Even with these separate electorates, Brits did’nt succeed in bringing partition nearer. So, they then declared that they would not agree to any constitutional change “that was resisted by a significant section of opinion in India”. They gave Jinnah a veto and conspired to breed violence and suddenly offered to quit provided partition was agreed to. A most sordid imperialist intrigue.
India was not a country when the British came; rather it was a Subcontinent composed of many states with a dominant Empire ruling it. A bit like the European Subcontinent once upon a time.
A stranger in a strange blog.
How strange am I? Well, I have been commenting around for 5 years and I have never come across anyone who thinks as I do. That the conflict between Russia and China in the early 60s was no more than a Puppenspiel.
Think about it. The Korean War was barely 10 years before. Anti-communists were legion in the Pentagon. Kennedy had fired the beloved Alan Dulles as DCIA. He also wanted to avoid the Vietnam outcome and was curiously assassinated by Oswald, who was assassinated by Ruby who died of brain tumors in prison.
The two powerful Communist States must have feared the MacArthurs and the LeMays would soon be nuking them. Or, more probably, that the conflict in Vietnam would be a cake walk for the Americans and that they would reassemble their forces in South Korea and reopen the war there.
So, citing a border dispute hundreds of years back, they drew up their forces at the southern most bend of the Amur River, which coincidently, was, I think, less than 200 miles from China’s southern border with North Korea.
And then, mirabel dictu, as America increased her forces in South Vietnam, Russia increased its strength on the north bank of the Amur. At last to 21 division by the end of 1969. About the same time: “President Nixon began to withdraw American troops from Vietnam in June 1969”
America’s problem with India today and Vietnam early in 2015 is that it is so in love with itself, it can’t believe that other countries are playing it for a fool.
Countries who put on a show of friendship as long as the money and weapons are flowing in. Granting the US irrelevant concessions like India has but refusing the important ones like Vietnam did last year.
It’s rather pathetic, isn’t it?
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-vietnam-russia-exclusive-idUSKBN0M71NA20150311
Did this writer use the word Gandhian?
That word is obsolete in today’s India. Gandhi can be seen on currency notes and remembered on his birthday but little else.
India, under Modi, is very different. Modi has made a choice to align with USA. That does not mean India will be an ally of US like Britain is but it will be increasingly working closely with US on various issues.
India and US find convergence in tackling a rising China that is also an expansionist power. Modi is raking up Balochistan as a human rights issue to embarass Pakistan but Balochistan is also a province of Pakistan that has Gwadar port which is being connected to China by CPEC. India and US do not want this to happen. Interesting times ahead.
So you disagree with Pepe, but agree with Andrew Korybko. I think you are (mostly)right.
The word Gandhian is not just obsolete but obscene when used in this context. Modi belongs to the RSS, the group that assassinated Gandhi in 1948. Sad to see the once-great Pepe’s obeisance to the mass murderer Modi. Korybko is right and it is to be hoped Russian and Chinese policy makers think as he does. And why the silence on the ongoing massacres by India in Kashmir, Pepe?
More than obscene. But Pepe is not taking Modi’s Gandhi talk as anything but the hypocrisy that it is. Only Pepe is looking at Modi’s moves as those of a practitioner of realpolitik , who plays all sides to see which gives him the highest yield. Fact is that there are pressures on Modi. The RSS ideologues are totally US-aligned and there is that pressure. On the other hand, the professional diplomats in India are often too proud to accept the arrogant swagger of the West. Modi’s peregrinations have taken him across the globe and he would definitely be feeling the pulse of different leaders and keenly observing the subtle shifts in the balance of power. He will factor in changes like those happening now in Vietnamese and Filipino policy and what it means for US power. Modi knows that the US is totally unreliable. We have to see how all this plays out and Modi’s policy pendulum may well come to rest at a point different from where it now seems to be. I hope I’ve got Pepe right.
Fact is, whether it is Russia or China or India or any other country , the US has got its lobbies in each country, like the Atlantic integrationists in Russia. Many of us in India share the dismay on the signing by India of the LEMOA agreement with the US . But a word of caution in becoming overenthusiastic about Pakistan , on the recoil from the Indian regime change. Fact is, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Israel are all artificially created by the West in order to keep control of the oilfields of Mid-east. Just as Russia keeps a line with Israel and Saudi Arabia without in any way, accepting their legitimacy beyond the narrowest sense, so also, Russia and China can regulate relations with Pak in the same way. US is able to bomb any part of Pak any time it likes and mocks at Pak sovereignty. Last October , Gen Raheel Sharrif,Pak army chief spent a full fortnight in the US apparently discussing their cooperation in Afghanistan. In 2011, when Bahrain revolt erupted, US arranged for the Sheikh in Bahrain to recruit troops/police from Pak citizens. You have to appreciate how deep is the US dependence on Mid-east control for its dollar hegemony to realise what a service Pak has rendered the US in this Bahrain intervention.So the equations between US and Pak are still playing out which is what US always ensures.
In the coming war India will be supported by USA/Europe and CHINA by Russia. 2 billion people are going to perish….This has been planned long ago. The elite just waits for the right moment to press the button. And it is getting closer …..That is going to follow the burst of the financial mega bubble and the Euroatlanticists will try to take advantage of this crisis to further their plans. (MODI =DIMO(N))
Pepe Escobars analysis is a little blunted by the use of ‘India’ as unit of analysis. Identify the entity within India which is generating ‘Indias’ actions for more focus.
Approximately,
1. In the last elections, India underwent a regimechange from the inside. Until then, India had been ruled within a more-or-less democratic constitutional order inspired by the leaders of its Independence struggle. Since such a struggle demands vision and sacrifice, it can weed out the usual crooked politicians and selfserving apparatchiks that populate usual democratic governments. Thus India was lucky that its democratic constitutional framework was set by men of great character and principle like Gandhi, Nehru, the constitution guider Ambedkar, the scholarly muslim Maulana Azad etc The guiding spirit of Gandhi was particularly important, even critical.
2. Even at the time, there was another group that did not participate in Indias independence struggle, and was not guided by democratic principles of equality, reason, truth, secularism etc. Its guiding ideology can be called Hindutva and the most important votary was the group called the RSS. Its ideology took its inspiration from the romantic irrationalist nationalisms of Europe.
3. This group, the RSS, and its ideology Hindutva is the entity that, with around 31% vote, came to power in India in the last elections. Pepe Escobars analysis will gain extra focus and penetration if this entity is seen as the prime actor i.e. ” What are the Hindutva groups in India really up to ? ”
The RSS floats separate organisations for each social sphere, the BJP is its political party,
An objective description of the RSS can be found in
Walter Andersen/Shridhar Damle Brotherhood in Saffron
this book is out of print. if anyone has a electronic copy, please post it somewhere…
another book is C Jaffrelot The Hindu Nationalist Movement and indian politics
To get a sense for the ideology of the RSS, try the writings of its most important leader, MS Golwalkar, whom they call their ‘ Guruji’
We or our nationhood defined and,
Bunch of thoughts
e.g approximate quote from his book ,
“ The non-Hindu people of Hindustan must either adopt Hindu culture and language, must learn and respect and hold in reverence the Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but of those of glorification of the Hindu race and culture … In a word they must cease to be foreigners, or may stay in the country, wholly subordinated to the Hindu nation, claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, far less any preferential treatment—not even citizens’ rights. ”
For a feel for their methods, about the killings in gujarat,
Manoj Mitta Fiction of factfinding
Mahatma Gandhi was murdered by Nathuram Godse, a member of the RSS (it is disputed if he had left it before the murder)
Differentiate clearly between Hinduism and Hindutva. Hinduism is a religion, Hindutva is a political ideology…. If we call a follower of hindutva, ‘a hindutva’… then a hindu need not be a hindutva, and a hindutva need not be a hindu. there are muslims in the hindutva political party… ( werent there some jews in the nazi party ?)
Pepe seems to be living in the cold war era, when India was an ally of USSR, albeit it was also part of NAM. No, Pepe, this is a different India. This is an assertive India, whose aims as a regional power, particularly against China, can only be aided by the USA, since both share a common antagonist.
Russia will still remain friends with India, as it should, but time and events are likely to change the quality and finally the magnitude of the relationship.
Finally, Pepe’s opinion regarding Chabahar port is frivolous. While I do not negate the strategic implications of Chabahar, as an alternative economic route to Central Asia it has no major importance. India has conceived this as an alternative to Header, however Gawadar has advantages which Chabahar does not.
And to equate Modi with Gandhi is the height of ignorance. Seems Pepe is in love with his words. As a fan of his writing I am disappointed. Time for Andrew Korybko.
@Russia will still remain friends with India
The problem is whether India will still remain friends with Russia.
@WizOz
With 100s of billions of dollars committed by India in Indo-Russo projects I just don’t see how India can diverge too much from Russia.
Russia has shared unprecedented strategic technology with India that US will not share even with their loyal poodle Britain:
-they’ve sold/leased nuclear attack submarines
-they’ve hugely assisted India with submarine nuclear reactor expertise that India used to build their own Nuclear submarines (INS Arihant)
-they are hand in glove in the FGFA/PAK-FA 5th Gen fighter aircraft; India’s only option for a 5th gen fighter
-everyone in India (and the world) knows that US (due to the structure of their political system) is a completely unreliable partner when It comes to transferring weapons technology know how; with the US, this is especially completely out if the question with Strategic technology. The US political structure is such that Congress and Lobby groups can completely undermine any commitment any US administration gives.
-India is not blind, they know that the US -with certainty- screws their allies (even arranges coups and kills loyal puppets) as a “reward” for years of loyal service. India experience with being the Soviet Union’s ally exposed the bad side of being an official ally of any power bloc.
Spot on wiz. I think with Modi in charge the decision to become an American poodle has been made. The rest is semantics and slowly changing gears to smoothen the jolt.
Like Deng Qiao Ping was an American Poodle right? Thanks to his foolish trust of the West and naivete the Tian-an-men incident occurred and the West conned him into creating demographic timebomb for China.
You know,.. propaganda is a sophisticated art that requires real intelligence, subtlety and language skills.
I was not going to say any thing, but in line with WizOz’s comments, here is it:
One of the biggest problem with India is you do not respect any one, let it be you little Hindu brother Nepal, little Muslim brother Pakistan, worst enemy China, or the greatest friend Russia.
I can totally see you ditch US when the time comes, and kiss up to who ever at that time. Your really is an amusing character.
BY the way, I do not think Pepe do not know India, but he is being nice and sentimental. Just as this spunik article: Redrawing New Silk Road: China ‘to Shift Its Focus to Russia, India’
: https://sputniknews.com/politics/20160827/1044693862/china-russia-india-silk-road.html we all know India is does more than not join Silk Road.
@J,
you are totally decimating your credibility if you think you know more about India or International Affairs than Pepe. This is getting comical. Your attempts to demonize India while ignoring Chinese brutality towards its own citizens and it’s aggression towards it’s neighbors is transparently partisan and detrimental to harmony within the BRICS: it plays into hate and resentment.
It is unproductive to exhibit sour-grapes about Indian’s current menu of geopolitical flexibility that China currently lacks (due to her own inflexibility and past actions). It is also unproductive (and ineffective) to waste effort casting stones at others while living in a glass house.
Pepe is not going to lose influence, readership nor credibility based in your comments.
你明白了吗?
LOL. A great example of: From India… with respect!
You are also very good at talking black into white.
Are you aware that the Chinese are extracting a 28% guaranteed return from the coal fired power plants that are to be built as part of the CPEC project?
Are you aware that Pakistani experts have expressed the concern that these coal-fired plants (who can’t use local Pakistani coal but must use higher grade Chinese imported coal) may be a form of Eco-dumping by China?
Are you aware that rather than use the millions of unemployed Pakistanis to build the CPEC infrastructure, China will be shipping in their own Han workers to do the work: currently 7036 Chinese Gwdior/CPEC workers in Baluchistan are being provided security by over 14,000 Pakistani troops? Pakistanis are asking why that semi-skilled and construction work is being done by Chinese when Pakistanis can do the same work (like they do in Dubai and Saudi Arabia).
I didn’t think so. That’s because neither you, nor Alan, nor WizOz, and other critics nor Andrei Korybko can’t speak or understand Urdu. As a result none of you can get first hand info by listening to Pakistani analysts chaffing at how Gwadior and CPEC are turning out to be a screw job where certain members of the Pakistani elite and Chinese companies will benefit but the average Pakistani will be left out – by design. Pakistani intellectuals are complaining that the terms of CPEC has China treating Pakistan like a virtual colony.
Are you aware that China is considering downgrading the priority of CPEC due the lack of progress and risks associated with this project?Heres a link from the CCP mouthpiece the globaltimes.cn: http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1006157.shtml
Look the point is that if you want to really understand a continent or nation you need to be intimate with it culture and direct info sources. just like non Russian speakers who have not lived in Russia or have not studied it for several years from original Russian source material cannot understand Russian issues competently. isn’t that one of the main reasons we come the the Saker site? It is to get the info on Russia from the native experts?
I am aware many of those talks. Including the great travesty of Chinese companies charging Sri Lanka 6.5% interest, while their national one year bond getting charged 11% at open market. Yes, I googled Sri Lanka’s government document for verification.
India are good at you do, trying to block progress of your small neighbors’ all you can. Trying to put a wadge between the your neighbors and China. I am sure in time all you accusation are just that, accusation. All you can accomplish is making cost high for your neighbors, let their projects delay a few years. Wast that your objective? You did succeed of doing just that in Sri Lanka. You should reach out, pat your self at back for job well done, and cost Sri Lanka a great deal of delay, and more money for their projects.
Glad you pointed that China was trying to financially screw the Sri Lankan people too by cutting a deal with their corrupt elite (rajapaksa brothers who are war criminals). But, you had to google it, you couldn’t get the info directly from Sinhalese sources.
Lol. So give Sri Lankan 5% discount on interest rate is screw them financially. Inciting, and physically supporting terror in Pakistan, cost them huge in blood and treasure is love and compassion. You’re a comedian.
Like I said before, you are doing much less or worse than not join silk road. But it is good you are not in it.
Re:
Lol. So give Sri Lankan 5% discount on interest rate is screw them financially.
In the era of near zero percent interest rates charging the Sri Lankan public 6.5% interest rates is screwing them, yes that’s correct.
Excellent point made by Mirror about being familiar with the local language and region before being able to understand it with competence. And that is precisely why I come to Saker’s blog – because Saker, Scott and others provide expertise that I do not possess because I am not an expert on Russia and I cannot read Russian source material.
Therefore, I think many posters should consider this comparison with Russia when trying to understand other regions, be they Brazil, Pakistan, India, China, etc.
Dear “Student”,
Your comment is appreciated; I am here on Saker only briefly, i.e. this article, then I will disappear for months again. A few months back you asked me to recommend Hindi/Marathi/etc-Indic language news sources that are free from the bullshit brown-englishman Anglophile-5th-columnist propaganda that infests India’s English language media. (Disclaimer I have nothing against the common Englishmen that wants to live in peace, I just think Englishmen should be Englishmen and Indians should be allowed to Indians and sold-out handmaidens of a foreign culture). I apologize, but at the time time I could not give you an answer (I read your request weeks after you had posted it and thought you would not receive the response). Unfortunately, I still can’t answer the question because I don’t know the answer; meaning:
-I get my info from a huge number of sources, mainly academic sources (based not content not author), personal contacts (I can’t say more on this), Indian Lang media (I have to filter out the sensationalist tabloid junk journalism). Eg. I sometimes check Zee News, ABP(yuck!), Doordarshan (to get an idea of what the govt view is) and many others as well as, direct white papers from Indian DefenseThink tanks,
Another surprising source are certain Pakistani media outlets like Geo TV and other channels whose names escape me. Pakistani media can be surprisingly brutal in self-criticism. Hassan Nissar, Pervez Hoodbhoy, and their Islamist nationalist critics come to mind. If you want to watch real life comedy, where the participants don’t know that they’re being funny, then Pakistani News can be extremely entertaining (but need to be fluent in Urdu/Hindi to get it); it must like what Russians experience when they watch Ukrainian News/TV.
I will suggest that in English language Media that isn’t sold out, “The Pioneer” and “perhaps” Rediff are good starting points, but from seeing your posts I can see you are far ahead of this. Also, (as you already know) Rajiv Malhotra is an excellent academic source since he is able to point the connections between American “Foundations” like “Ford” and “Carnegie”, etc. and their nexus with US Intelligence and State Dept as well their funding directed to NGOs that destabilized foreign societies.
I’ll tell what is worth avoiding or reading with a very critical eye as they are thoroughly compromised outlets:
– The entire Times Group media; i.e. The Times of India, The Indian Express, etc
– The Hindustan Times is pure garbage – as credible as CNN
– The Hindu – as useless as the Hindustan Times
– NDTV is 5th-columnist central a thoroughly disgusting propaganda outlet
– CNN-IBN is mostly junk (what do expect, it’s associated with Western MSM)
i.e. the majority of English lang media in India is either compromised or just plain disconnected from real Indian society; the kinda of people/scum you’d find in Yabloko party in Russia.
Sorry this is the best I can do at present.
Oh boy! Corrections:
I wish I could have proof read my response before posting some of my typos convey the exact opposite of what I meant.
When I wrote:
“(Disclaimer I have nothing against the common Englishmen that wants to live in peace, I just think Englishmen should be Englishmen and Indians should be allowed to Indians and sold-out handmaidens of a foreign culture)”
I meant to write:
“(Disclaimer I have nothing against the common Englishmen that wants to live in peace, I just think Englishmen should be Englishmen and Indians should be allowed to be Indians and not sold-out handmaidens of a foreign culture)”
When I wrote:
“-I get my info from a huge number of sources, mainly academic sources (based not content not author), ”
I meant to write:
“-I get my info from a huge number of sources, mainly academic sources (based on content and not author), “
@Mirror
Thank you for your detailed response. I cannot express my gratitude that you have taken the time to respond to me in this manner. As a child of the diaspora my mother tongue is English and it has been a long and arduous journey to attempt to understand India. I understand all too well our fellow posters on the Saker blog who are taken in by English language media and academic posts on the Indian region (I am partly of Tamil descent and you can surely imagine the misconceptions I harboured courtesy of Bishop Caldwell and Co.). It is surely enough to make me break down and cry and wish for Kalki avatar to just put us all out of our misery when I see the misconceptions about ‘Hindu terrorists’ or whatever else is said about the state of the native Dharmic folk – as if they are to blame for their mere existence. Believe it or not, I did not even know that India was not India and was in fact Bharatavarsha until a few years ago – that is the extent of my ignorance.
I will make a note of your advice and continue onwards in my search of understanding. If you have the time or inclination, feel free to ask the Mods for my details and send me an email – I would be happy to correspond with you.
It’s not necessary to have been a pageboy at the Congress of Vienna to know that Emperors and Empires just hate to take “No” for an answer. This is now true everywhere on the globe.
Including the Indian sub-continent. At the end of the last century, before all that IT work was farmed out to them and they became the answering machines of busy American corps. India wasn’t any more desirable than a third eye or leg. But their economy was growing and they had found a worthy ally in Russia.
An ally who was selling them arms, including helicopters, fighters, submarines, etc. The American Empire grew more and more hostile to Russia and China for their refusal to bend the knee and for throwing gorilla dust in the Imperial face in Crimea and South China Sea. The American Empire which had destroyed two of Russia’s allies, Syria and Ukraine, was in the process of stealing a third, India.
Whether or not India was only feigning interest in America’s advances to her remains to be seen.
Perhaps India’s partnership with America will follow the Vietnamese model, without a Cam Ranh Bay but with miles of ports on India’s east and west coasts to threaten China.
Here’s a brief synopsis of the Empire’s covetous appetite in Vietnam:
http://cogitasia.com/what-should-the-united-states-do-about-cam-ranh-bay-and-russias-place-in-vietnam/
Russia was Vietnam’s most potent ally from 1963 to 1975. And today the Empire, who rained napalm down on North Vietnam’s women and children, can’t understand why Hanoi still favors Russia.
It is incredible how demented the neocons in the DoS are!
@BTS
Yours is an interesting and thought-provoking comment. I find myself agreeing with it.
I do believe India is is a good position with a lot of maneuvering space in Geopolotics. That being said once those magical ports appear and threaten China, what would the fate of BRICS be? Dead, that’s what. And India would be a full fledged American ally. I am not arguing that India should or shouldn’t go down this route. However, I do think Pepe’s analysis is wrong.
@Raphee
I find myself agreeing with you, this is strange. I agree that Pepe’s speculation on the ports is likely wrong.
I don’t think Lemoa has anything to do with India being an active military ally of the US, what it is officially stated to be is a mutual trade in logistics: Meaning it will provide Indian Naval vessels the ability to take advantage of American Naval facilities in the Pacific & Mediterranean (mainly) for supplies, fuel, food, etc – extending the Indian Navy’s reach. Conversely it will allow the US to access Indian facilities for the same in the Indian Ocean region, reducing cost and burden on Diego Garcia.
Officially it is for Natural Disasters and Rescue Operations.
I can’t see how this can be used against China, since China’s military presence in the Indian Ocean is tenuous and the US is already playing mischief and boxing-in China in various China Seas (South, East and North China Seas). However, since we can’t predict the future, we could be wrong and Pepe could be right.
@how this can be used against China
What about military drills with the Americans on land at the very border of China? What about the extension of Indian Navy’s reach in South China Sea?
The FOOD FIGHT on this article needs to stop. We are not posting trolling comments that are just looking for a fight.Respectful non-argumentative comments will be posted. Those attacking other posters are being send to Saker for review.
To the moderator.
The particularly vicious comment by Mr. J threatening “to instill fear in China’s neighbour’s for next 5000 years” is inappropriate and uncivilized, it should not go unanswered and at least a response should be allowed to hold him to account for his statement and his vicious behavior shut down.
You are allowing the trolling to continue. I posted a detailed response to Ajanabi regarding the massacres of the indigenous Hindu minority in Kashmir along with links and sources. It was not published. I am not blaming you entirely, you’re doing this on a voluntary basis and may not be aware of the full scope of the issues.
Also I do commend you for allowing criticism of Chinese govt policies, which in the past, have been censored by previous moderators as if China is some kind of sacrosanct ally of Russia that is beyond reproach and criticism – China is a temporary informal ally of convenience with Russia nothing more. The blog only maintains credibility if attempts to remain objective.
This sort of thing happens regularly whenever the saker publishes an even mildly even-handed article on India. That’s why I made the point about anti-Indian trolls in 1st post (I incorrectly surmised that they were tiny this time; boy was I wrong. They were just as prevalent as in the past).
I’m posting this because it was not attacking. And because it explains his part in the dispute.But it is best for this issue to be put to bed.And no more fighting over it.MOD
@Moderator(s)
I think that while there may be some trolls, some regular Saker posters are sincere in their responses and are merely speaking from a point of view that includes sources that are compromised. India and south Asia in general is a ridicoulously dense topic. Consider the huge amount of disinformation about Russia over the last hundred years and multiply 100 fold and you will get an idea of how bad it is.
I offer that to understand the situation one must understand the underlying reality. For instance, if experts like Saker did not let us know the underlying reality of modern Russia and Ukraine, would we really understand the situation – historical context and modern context are provided.
I pose that the Eurasian integration relies on four pillars – Russia / China / India / Iran – they are all important and necessary players and all have their own interests that align in that they want to continue their ancestral civilisations and maintain sovereignty. We know what is happening in Russia of course. Jeff J Brown and Pepe Escobar keeps us informed of China. There are posters that keep us informed of Iran. But does anybody really understand what is going on with India?
India has baggage. Baggage of British proxy Nehru and certain policies that explicitly were anti majority population since 1947. Before that 1757 to 1947 – 200 years of British exploitation. Before that 1000s to 1700s – legacy of Muslim rule over North India. So on and so on. Surely the posters on the Saker blog deserve some post that can point them to some source material that can explain where the 3rd largest economy in the world (PPP) and 3rd most influential country in the Eurasian alliance is coming from.
I have some sources. I am happy to post it and people can view and digest as they wish. Others likely have far greater knowledge than I.
The problem is with the fighting with each other.Posts without that are posted.MOD
It is quite interesting that the comments section on this article quickly turned into a comparative assessment between Pepe Escober’s writing and Andrew Korybko’s article published almost same time in Katehon on almost same subject. Instead on trying to identify who is right in his opinion, and who is wrong, I feel that, the this debate over India’s role in current world order actually shows the importance of the subject. Unfortunately India was/is never a subject of serious analysis for the global MSM and Alternate Media until Modi government took charge two years back. Now that the subject is drawing wide attention, we should engage in serious debate.
Any serious analysis of ‘present’ geopolitical order requires an overall understanding of how the sovereign entity (country /nation /civilization) got its current shape through the ‘past’. The ‘Indian subcontinent’ has been one of the early ‘civilizations’ that appeared and flourished in the Eurasia apart from ‘Chinese empire’. However, it is debatable, how effective its socio-cultural, and political framework was, because of few key facts like:
(a) Chinese civilization which went on to build an empire (with China as ‘middle kingdom’ and vast neighbouring kingdoms as ‘vassal countries’) initiating from around 2000 BC, more often than not, exhibited centripetal force of bonding between seat of power in capital and the regions of the empire. Only during large scale chaos and disturbances, the regions wanted secession and tried to create ‘independent’ kingdoms. Thus the ruling ‘authority’ exercised its executive and legislature power over the entire population as well as the elites and aristocrats acted to serve the Chinese empire. It will not be an imagination to say that, the Chinese civilization almost overlapped with Chinese empire not only in terms of geographical boundary, but more importantly, in its socio-cultural and political governance aspects. In a striking contrast, from 1500 BC till 1970 AD, most
of the time the geographic regions of Indian civilization exhibited centrifugal force that resulted in sovereign regional kingdoms flourishing within the same civilizational fabric. History shows only few occasions when the entire landmass of Indian subcontinent was ruled by a central authority, each one for a stretch of about 150 years – Maurya empire (central rule based on Patliputra, no vassals), Gupta empire (central rule based on Patliputra, vassals of south Indian kings), Mughal empire (central rule based on Delhi, no vassals), British empire (central rule based on Calcutta and Delhi, hundreds of vassal kings across subcontinent). Hence, Indian civilization
could not become synonymous with Indian empire – neither in terms of geopolitics, nor in terms of socio-cultural aspects. During the three decade period of post-British empire, Indian subcontinent again became a land of three countries – India, Pakistan, Bangladesh.
(b) Again we come back to Chinese civilization – during the four millenniums, apart from Mongols and Manchus Chinese empire could not be invaded and dominated by outsider powers. Even Mongol and Manchu ruling elites got fully assimilated within majority Han culture while bringing in select expertise into Chinese statecraft. This resulted in the continuation of the civilization aspects remarkably well – its very interesting how the Chinese society witnessed a continuously evolving socio-cultural platform due to mingling of Confucian, Taoist and Buddhist morality based teachings across about four-fifth of the (ethnically Han) population of the China middle kingdom landmass. The ‘outsider’ Islamic religion based culture and custom exist primarily with minority group like Uighur – Uighurs form a tiny percentage of total population, so it has minor influence on Chinese culture. Compared to that, Indian subcontinent found ‘guests’ at the north-west gate quite continuously – between 1800 BC and 1200 BC, the Aryans arrived and settled creating 16 medium sized kingdoms (as Vedic philosophy based civilization) leaving south India for Dravidian tribes; while the Aryans went on to create Indian empire briefly (Maurya empire based on Buddhist religion, Gupta empire based on Hindu religion which itself was a degenerated derivative of Vedic civilization after introducing ‘caste’ concepts), the subcontinent witnessed between 300 BC and 400 AD many invasions from Greeks-Scythians-Kushans-Huns most of whom created short-lived kingdoms in west and north part of the subcontinent; Turkish-Afghani invasions between 1100 AD and 1400 AD created Islamic religion based kingdoms with large number of outsiders (with
culture alien to the subcontinent), settling across the subcontinent and converting a considerable part of existing population; 1500 AD to 1600 AD found Turko-Mongol tribes invading India and creating Mughal empire that also brought in central Asian culture; finally, during 1700 AD to 1900 AD the British, French, Portugese powers contested in this subcontinent and the entire subcontinent was brought under British empire who also introduced Christianity in that landmass.
Indian subcontinent, before the 1947 independence from British empire, had Hindi, as the major language and Urdu, Bengali, Tamil, Telegu languages close on the heels, in terms of population strength. More interestingly, ethnically and culturally they were/are diverse.
(c) History can throw up strange observations. In a way, social-cultural-political tapestry of Indian subcontinent between 1800 BC to Mughal period resembles European continent (excluding Slavic Russian landmass) between 500 BC to Napoleanic period – multi-ethnic multi-lingual multi-religion regions striving for dominance with few aristocrat families successful in creating large empire across competing regions for only limited time period.
The British power while leaving in 1947, constructed artificial entities like ‘India’, (west) ‘Pakistan’, (east) ‘Pakistan’ (i.e. ‘Bangladesh’) in such a way that border disturbances would continue in future between India and Pakistan, India and Bangladesh, India and China, Pakistan and Afghanistan. That border disturbances ensured the western powers (finally, AngloZionist clique) opportunity for selling military equipment to all the sides, and influence the government policies to keep them in the AngloZionist camp. Unless and until all the actors enter into frank discussion and ink deals for mutually beneficial border demarcation the British created border problem will continue to bleed all concerned parties.
India had quite independent foreign policy leaning to USSR camp till Nehru-Gandhi family was at the helm. Post 1990 the Indian elites-aristocrats-oligarchs (of both national parties) decisively started shifting towards AZ camp: key reasons being (a) absence of USSR as a balancer to USA might, and (b) Indian oligarchs found AZ plutocracy to be willing big brother who will ’empower’ and ‘enrich’ them by paving the way to snatch political power (at an astounding pace, starting in 1991 the Indian oligarchs have captured all wings of Indian state apparatus by 2014 to ensure that every policy and every decision in India will result in enhancing the power and wealth of oligarch families, irrespective of the ruling party). Since 2014, the Modi government brought RSS, a Hindu fundamentalist religious group to the decision-making authority for the first time in Indian government (the earlier government by BJP was run by a grass-root level leader Bajpeyi who was not a prisoner of RSS philosophy/concepts). The way ‘Marrano’ were a group of crypto-jew aristocrats that converted to Catholic Christianity but continued to subvert Christian culture and social constructs in Europe (true to the role of Zionist elite), the way ‘Domeh’ was a group of crypto-jew aristocrats that converted to Sunni Islam but continued to subvert Islamic culture and social constructs in Ottoman empire (true to the role of Zionist elite), the same way the crypto-jew aristocrats of India (Jew tribes who settled in India and converted into Hinduism as ‘Chitpavan’ and ‘Bene Israel’ Brahmin) has been wrecking havoc on Indian society by preaching hate message against all non-Hindu peoples. And, RSS is heavily influenced by these so-called ‘Brahmins’ (who were killers of MK Gandhi also). No wonder, Modi government acting on instructions of RSS will firmly transform India from a reluctant member of Eurasian resistance camp into enthusiastic over-zealous member of AZ camp.
Meanwhile USA has been patiently building up a cosy relationship between Indian diaspora in USA, Canada and AZ owned businesses – while offshoring reduces USA citizen’s employment, it increases employment in Asian countries at a much lower cost (to the business owner). All factors combined, USA based AZ plutocracy found a suitable match in Indian oligarchy – both will try to wreck the serious initiatives of Eurasian resistance and BRICS like NDB, AIIB etc.
This leaves us with a very important question – if Indian ruling elites-aristocrats transformed itself from being covert USSR camp-follower to becoming overt USA camp-follower within past two decades, what happened to Pakistani ruling establishment who, till five years back, were in the pockets of USA government?
It seems, for the sake of maintaining the ‘state’, Pakistani elites learned the importance of economic rejuvenation, and simultaneously they could convince Chinese leadership to invest heavily. This one act dramatically altered Pakistan’s geopolitical position from being a stooge of USA based AZ plutocracy to a camp follower of China. So, Pakistani elites-aristocrats may not appreciate Eurasian resistance but they will certainly not wreck the resistance !
In my opinion, during the forthcoming BRICS summit meeting to be held in India next month, Russian leaders should take a lead to engage in transparent discussions with Indian leaders about how their actions will create hurdles for Eurasian resistance countries, which ultimately will weaken Indian economy and society. Past 100 years history is a witness to what USA has been doing to non-Anglo non-Israeli countries – India can’t escape that fate of destabilization and balkanization if it continue to act in the interests of AZ cabal !
On the contrary, India can gain tremendously if it becomes a member of the Eurasian resistance camp and driving force for OBOR economic programme being implemented through SCO and AIIB – at least half of the poor population can transform their lives to become middle income population by 2050 with Chinese investments. If one refers to the ideas of renowned intellectuals from Indian subcontinent, those point out towards larger integration of Eurasian landmass and increasing cooperation among Asian societies. Will Indian elites-aristocrats-oligarchs pay attention to that ?
Fair analysis. However, I do not see any meaningful changes from Modi any time soon.
Modi has 80% of support of population. If you ever reading comments at India English publications, you know the kind of people supports him, what make them support him. In their eyes, he is doing something right.
Today someone pronounced that India will now win the war over China because the purchase of 36 Rafale. They want to annex Pakistan, etc, see the wish list from v v anand above.
Do those keyboard warriors not realize 4 Kashmir irregulars just took out one of their battalions? Or citizen of those country really do not dig India?
It accuse Pakistan Human Rights Abuse while it killed 81 unarmed civilian in two month and blind hundreds in two week.
Modi will not want to get off this Hindu nationalist mad tiger if he want to be in power, or maybe he is the figure head and puppet of this entity of this madness.
Their MSM is in some way march these mad mess off the cliff. It is really amusing (for me, I am sure deadly fearful for its small neighbors) that an ancient culture lacks any thread of wisdom and self awareness.
Maybe US is right one to India to speed up its self destruct in their own rotten madness for the good of the currently dysfunctional South Asia, and its poor neighbors.
Anything India touch, it turns into hot mess, It remind me of Hillary. Please let it stay away from OBOR.
Mr. J.
Since you claim to be concerned about human rights, why have you omitted that much larger scale mass murder being committed by China’s vassal state and dependency, Pakistan?
Since you claim you are Chinese and fear for India’s weak and fragile neighbors like Pakistan, don’t you think, China, which, has great influence on a weak collapsing Pakistan, that China should be able to convince Pakistan to stop massacring Baloch civilians everyday? That would go a very long way in stabilizing a collapsing Pakistan.
Pakistan is the epicenter of Salafist Islamic terrorism, this is a fact. Should China not be more forceful in demanding that Pakistan stop supporting Islamist terrorist groups? Even Uighur terrorists receive training and funding in Pakistan.
Understandably,.. Pakistan is terrified at the prospect of its dismemberment due to its immoral behavior towards its minorities -and it should be, it is a failed state run by an incompetent junta populated by fat and rather stupid generals with a puppet civilian government as window dressing. As the Chinese Global Times (official mouth piece of the Chinese Communist Party and it’s security faction) article admits, Pakistan is unstable and there are real doubts, in China itself, about the viability of CPEC.
Here is the link to the article:
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1006157.shtml
It is in English, but since you are Chinese you can read it in Mandarin too, where it is even more blunt and pessimistic about CPEC than in the English lang article.
The fear in Pakistan of a further and final dismemberment is palpable, due to their memory of 90,000 of their finest soldiers meekly surrendering to only 20,000 Indian Army soldiers in 1971 when Pakistan was first dismembered in by India. China should help guide Islamonationalist Pakistan to cease slaughtering and oppressing its non punjabi minorities and to cease further transnational Islamist terrorist activities. That would be best for Eurasian trade and stability.
Also, since China is so powerful, as you claim, they should also use their influence in Nepal to force the Kathmandu elite to stop oppressing the Madhesis in the lowlands. That would also help Eurasian integration as would China stopping its own cultural genocide of Tibetans by halting forced Han migration which turning Tibetans into a minority their own country of Tibet.
I am very happy with India’s (Removed)
I have better things to do.(Removed)
I need to make it clear to you as well. No fighting will be allowed.This needs to stop.MOD)
Not fighting. Just be sarcastic.:-) I will get out of your hair, thanks for your hard work. Have a good day/night. See you on next post, may be the one with Hillary… We ought to stop her!
(a) For heaven’s sake, J, V V Anand is not proposing a wish list of Indian expansionism ! That is just the list that occurred to Stalin when he spoke to Indian CP leaders in 1951. There is nothing more deplorable than one country swallowing another country. It is a different matter if peoples unite on the basis of equality . Remember that Marx said that a country that oppresses another cannot itself be free.
(b) At the same time, Western imperialism has always played minority politics in the Third World. Look at the way they are targeting Tibet. Every two-bit actor from Hollywood comes over and has a photo-op with the Dalai Lama and waxes about “human rights”” and so on unmindful of the fact that there are more Tibetans living in adjoining Chinese provinces than in Tibet and they would be left in the lurch if Tibet falls under the Dalai spell and aligns with the West. In fact, it is high time India asked Dalai to leave and move elsewhere, say Kandy in Srilanka , where Buddhism is prevalent. Of course, it is not going to happen. But, it is boot-licking elite of India who are dancing to western tunes in these issues.
(c) It is quite mistaken to say that “80% of Indians support Modi”. Those are manufactured trolls on websites , though I must admit upper caste middle class Indians have been big Modi supporters.Partly because of the media controlled by crony capitalists. But those sections are a demographic minority. A huge groundswell has emerged from intellectuals, Muslims, marginalised regions and lower caste people. And even among Modi bhakts (i.e. Modi supporters), there is a backlash because of the vulgar promises that Modi made pre-election that he”would not be weak like Manmohan Singh”, “he would pay back to Pakistan in their own language”. Now, reality is sinking in. Pakistan is using its nuclear shield to wage proxy war on India.The recent Kashmir riots are partly due to misbehaviour by our Armed Forces and not really due to Pakistan. A communist leader in India said that only if you already have corpses on the ground, will vultures turn up.India has no effective military options with Pakistan and it is hard to handle proxy war. Now the chickens are coming home to roost and the Modi Bhakts are demanding to know when Modi will attack Pakistan. Last December, in Modi’s home state of Gujarat, local elections (district level, village level) were overwhelmingly won by Congress in 20 out of 26 rural districts. And Modi’s victory in 2014, was, in part, a fluke as he won 42% of the vote in Uttar Pradesh, the largest state, and his rivals were divided. (His party holds barely 10% of the seats in the Uttar Pradesh assembly) . Much can change , if Modi is defeated next year in both UP and Gujarat state assembly elections.WE cannot assume Modi will lose, but with the ill-treatment of lower caste people, the opposition have their work cut out.
(d) It is a valid point that there has been brutal repression recently in Jammu and Kashmir.. My family lived in J&K from 1967 to 1971. The use of pellet guns has been disastrous. (Perhaps, an Israeli -inspired method of the present dispensation). In 2012, I visited J&K again, and met an old family friend, a Kashmiri Muslim gentleman, who had been a colleague of my father as a geologist. He was of the view that Western intelligence agencies had penetrated Indian security agencies and that was the reason for much that was happening.
@V V Anand
I must commend you on earlier posts where you provided interesting insights on British malice and role in partition. Excellent insight from an alternate point of view.
I would like to point out that your contention that India would be deterred by Pakistan’s “nuclear shield” has been completely disproven -as I had expected it would:
Your analysis stated the following:
And even among Modi bhakts (i.e. Modi supporters), there is a backlash because of the vulgar promises that Modi made pre-election that he”would not be weak like Manmohan Singh”, “he would pay back to Pakistan in their own language”. Now, reality is sinking in. Pakistan is using its nuclear shield to wage proxy war on India.And even among Modi bhakts (i.e. Modi supporters), there is a backlash because of the vulgar promises that Modi made pre-election that he”would not be weak like Manmohan Singh”, “he would pay back to Pakistan in their own language”. Now, reality is sinking in. Pakistan is using its nuclear shield to wage proxy war on India.
Your analysis gives too much credence to Pakistan’s primitive and small stockpile of low yield unreliable warheads. But, that’s besides the point, even if Pakistan’s arsenal was as good as the lie-making AngloSaxon media claims (!?!), it is useless as a deterrent for tactical counter-terrorism purposes. This is obvious to people with military experience. Pakistan cannot use this arsenal to deter India from killing Pakistani terrorists, their ISI handlers and Pakistani army officers/soldiers shielding these terrorists.
Now the chickens are coming home to roost and the Modi Bhakts are demanding to know when Modi will attack
Well now Modi and India have attacked, so much for the smugness of those in Pakistan who sympathize with Salafist terrorists. and the Modi Bakts (followers) only had to wait 6 days for Modi to fulfill his commitment.
The criminal junta running the Pakistani state have had their bluff called and they’ve proven impotent.
You also stated:
India has no effective military options with Pakistan and it is hard to handle proxy war.
Not as hard as you contend: Again the facts on the ground have proven the above supposition wrong: India does have military options, it just exercised them (just like a certain young and inexperienced Russian analyst said India would).
Now a very interesting thing has happened, Pakistan has been put in the trap of retaliating overtly using their army to launch punitive strikes against the Indian Army, if they do so they play right into India’s hand: The Indian military will crush any overt attacks due to their conventional military superiority and Pakistan loses. However, Pakistan also loses if they continue using terrorists proxies: any successful attack will result in an even larger scale “surgical” strikes into Pakistan by the Indian military (as promised by Indian Gen Ranbir Singh this morning), and Pakistan still loses. So it is Pakistan and it’s state sponsoring of terrorism that is on the backfoot.
Straight Bat I agree that this site ought to do a better job of understanding India if it’s serious about it’s focus on the BRICS. In some respects they’ve done quite well by posting editorials from The Daily Pioneer and by Pepe “Escobar”. This has put this blog site in better position than other blogs in that they found these reasonably objective sources on the matter.
I do have to point out though, that what you have posted about Indian History and Modi is as inaccurate as you can get, because, as user “Student” has pointed out, the disinfo embedded in English language sources about India is so deep that it makes the Historical narrative of the Banderastanis look sane.
Now regarding the following:
the crypto-jew aristocrats of India (Jew tribes who settled in India and converted into Hinduism as ‘Chitpavan’ and ‘Bene Israel’ Brahmin) has been wrecking havoc on Indian society by preaching hate message against all non-Hindu peoples.
?
Are you a serious? What about the Chinese Jews, the Zia and HuiHui 回回or HuiRen 回人 Jews of China, are going to tell me that they secretly assimilated in Chinese society and have secretly taken over the helm of the Chinese Communist Party based on Internet mythology?
Since 2014, the Modi government brought RSS, a Hindu fundamentalist religious group to the decision-making authority for the first time in Indian government (the earlier government by BJP was run by a grass-root level leader Bajpeyi who was not a prisoner of RSS philosophy/concepts).
You are completely off-base regarding who Atal Behari Vajpayee is, he was even more hardline than PM Modi. It is absolutely incorrect to make the claim that Vaypayee was grassroots and Modi is not. You got it totally backwards: It is Vajpayee that is a formal Kanyakubjas Brahmin, while Modi belongs to 4th caste; i.e. labourers/shudras (or the lowest echelon of the 3rd caste vaishyas, depending on who you talk to). Vaypayee came from an upper-middleclass so-called “high-caste” brahmin family, graduating from (the then) elite Victoria college and Dayanand College in Kanpur. He’s been a member of the RSS since 1939. You have posted utter non-facts regarding these two political figures.
It is Narendra Modi who comes from the Tayl-wala caste (oil seed manufacturing) caste which is part of the labour caste (i.e. 4th caste known as Shudras or as some claim the 3rd caste, Vaishyas or as others claim a hybrid of the two). Irrespective, he came from a very poor underprivileged “low-caste” family where his mother had to work as a labourer (father died young) to support the family – this man knows, first hand, the humiliations that the poor in India have experienced at the hands to parasitical British and their abusive inheritors the brown-englishmen class that infests India today. Modi is generally very serious in public, but can be brought to tears in public when reminded of the humiliation his mother had to endure as well the humiliations that so-called “lower-castes” have had to endure.
It is Narendra Modi that has risen thru the ranks from his working-class background thru the party grassroots: thanks to his competence, single-minded drive and the BJP meritocracy. As well, Modi is one of Vajpayee’s favorite protege’s (did you know that?). Modi has passed the most pro-poor, pro-farmer budget in Indian history (did you know that?). He has also passed legislation favoring poor women in gas subsidies, loans and health. He has done the diametric opposite of the Neo-Liberal agenda on the economic front, directing the bulk of govt capital to the poorest 1/3 of the population and directing Infrastructure projects to prioritize build-out to the poorest parts of the country first (both policies will give the largest boost to GDP, because the poor will spend the capital on necessary goods & services). Not at all the “rightwing” elitist people are making him out to be.
Re: RSS influence in the Modi govt.
Again you have something else factually reversed: in the Vajpayee adminstration, the RSS had far greater influence than with the Modi government. Vajpayee was in a politically weaker situation than Modi and had to placate the RSS in order to make sure that he had a reliable army of election/campaign volunteers. Modi, on the other hand, is popular across a wider band of the electorate and is in a much stronger political position, which affords him more flexibility to take the RSS for granted (something they are growing increasing angry about).
You do no know anything about China, you really should stop talking about China, your comments are full of errors, we were just be kind let you slide. Hui Hui are Muslims. The few Jews came to China were fully assimilate into Chinese society. Even if any of them aware they were Jews, They have no advantage competing with anyone else in Chinese society what so ever.
If you do not believe me, you can google some hot shot Jew’s advise to Israel companies who think they can make it in China: Don’t go there. They eat their own inefficient subsidiaries. They will devour you.
(removed)
I deliberately used the term huihui to (removed) it only means Muslims it does not, it was term used to describe both Muslims and Jews during Mongol rule due to circabulation practiced by Muslims and the similarity between Muslims in dress (head covering) eating habits and ritual slaughter.(Removed)
my point exactly about a secretly assimilated Jews is Chinese society taking over the CCP was sarcasm at what a ridiculous idea it is as ridiculous as Indian Brahmins are secretly Jews ruling India (removed)
huai dan is an important person, tell me,(removed)
(removed) I have and in China. if (removed) they are extremely bureaucratic, they’re only competitive advantage is low cost of capital, low exchange rate, low wages, and low regulation when it comes to exports. In terms of operations Chinese multinationals are bureaucratic and weakly managed because very little autonomy is given to front line management, everything must go thru multiple approvals, (removed) I’ve worked there so I know this from experience.
I may not have been clear before.The fighting and insulting needs to stop.So I will remove those parts.Which makes the post difficult to read.I suggest NOT including them to begin with.MOD
Yes Mr. J,
huihui 回回 refers to both Jews and Muslims when the term was first coined during/around the Yuan dynasty, this is common knowledge in China. As is the concept of huai dan of great historical significance in China.
Best regards,
You said you want people to understand india. I say to understand india go read the book “india shattering the illusions”
@Alan
You believe that you can understand an entire culture, country, it’s geopolitics, internal politics and it’s psyche by reading a single book? That is very interesting.
Have you read the book “The Coming Collapse of China” by Gordon G. Chang? It is a fascinating read. It has predicted the sudden GDP growth drop that China experienced over the last 3 years. I wonder if we can completely understand China by reading that single book?
BTW the Tibetan alphabet is based on the Indian Devanagri script, this is why you will find Indic glyphs, such as the swastika in it. it is also a valid character in 汉字。Also Tibetan Buddhism came from northern India via the Pali Empire, as did Chinese Buddhism.
Mirror,
Response to your key points are given below:
“that what you have posted about Indian History and Modi is as inaccurate as you can get
I never deal with inaccurate and wrong information – whatever I have written in my post is correct and as per internationally accepted published history (that may / may not match with Hindu mythology-turned-into-history kind of concepts).
On Indian crypto-Jews … “Are you a serious? What about the Chinese Jews …
Whatever I wrote is quite serious subject – we all understand that at The Saker site nobody is engaged to have fun by posting useless writings. Instead of asking how I came to such conclusion about crypto-Jews in Indi, you jumped into crypto-Jews in China. As I know, in China, the crypto-Jews could not come near to influence the ‘state’ policies and power.
On Modi and Vajpayee … “You are completely off-base regarding who Atal Behari Vajpayee is, he was even more hardline than PM Modi. It is absolutely incorrect to make the claim that Vaypayee was grassroots and Modi is not. You got it totally backwards”
Please go through my post. I have never claimed who is more/less hardliner, neither I commented about Modi not being grassroot leader. And, finally I didn’t raise the issue of caste background of either of the leaders. My points are:
1) Vajpayee was a leader independent of RSS influence, while Modi has to be jacked up by RSS – that resulted in deep influence of RSS on government policies in domestic, economic, defense, foreign aspects
2) RSS has been steering India towards AZ block through policy decisions and implementations that shows crypto-Jew influence over Indian government.
Needles to say that, for past 25 years the Jew and/or crypto-Jew elites-aristocrats-oligarchs in each of the key European countries has been relentlessly pushing their governments for complete integration with military and economic policies and actions of USA even if those are detrimental to the 90% population of the related country. I can see that the actions/policies of Indian government since 2014 (heavily influenced by crypto-Jew Brahmins of Indian west coast) closely resembles with their ideological brethren of Europe ! And, all are being done in the name of “Hindu nationalism”. One can name a few like… rapidly decline of sourcing Russian military hardware …. rapidly increasing military purchase from USA/Israel/NATO countries … sending patrol boats to south china sea …. teaming up with japan and australia for creating naval block …. creating hurdles for economic rejuvenation in Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bangladesh using Chinese investment …. signing logistics agreement with USA ….
End of thread.
Straight Bat has made many points and I belive this is a good start to looking at India and south Asia. I would however mention that modern countries like Nepal and Sri Lanka should be included in this analysis. In fact, considering the pilgrimage site of Mt Kailash even Tibet has a place in this discussion – not in terms of its present but rather historical context.
In my limited knowledge I can state a few rebuttables and additional points to the above:
1) Aryan Invasion theory is a creation of colonial times – please refer to lectures on India Inspires Youtube page for several different methods to debunk this false and harmful theory.
2) Indian history is dated incorrectly according to colonial belief of 4004 BC as the planet’s creation. It cannot be used. Dating ‘Vedic civilisation’ is pointless using colonial and post-colonial successor sources. There is ample evidence that Buddha himself lived at least 1000 years before colonial historians place him.
Supposed historians date kingdoms like those of the Kurus to around 1500BCE – however, Indian epics and histories clearly show a massive war around the scions of the Kuru kingdom around 3000-3200BCE – the current Indian calendar is dated from this time.
3) China and India are not regions that have historically had conflict. Rather, historically, there is ancient trade and cultural exchange between these regions. Focusing on who had total control of China or India misses the point that you do not need a unified empire to have trade relations. These are civilisational blocs – regions that share a similar civilisational outlook. It is not a coincidence that south-east Asia is a mix of Chinese and Indian influence.
Unless the Indian state is taken over by as Scott would say ‘instead of Indians’, I cannot see India not pursuing a stable and equitable relationship with China and Russia.
Student,
you’re doing a great job, let me commend you on this. Your posts are helping dispel a lot of ignorance and disinfo about our culture and our homeland.
I forgot to mention to you earlier that a potentially great way for you to gateway into picking up Indian languages is by watching doordarshan news via YouTube streaming (they have an official channel on YouTube). They broadcast news in multiple dialects (Hindi, Urdu, etc) and in English (the horrible stuffed up convent English of India, with its 19th century pompous British English pronounciations) if you can stomach it ;-) and get past pompous way the announcer speaks English, you’ll notice that they’ll mix in a lot of Hindi in with their English or during a particular report. Just thru osmosis within a few days you’ll become familiar with familiar with those terms which are often common even in south India.
Their YouTube channel contains in depth interviews with cabinet ministers regarding their current quarterly targets and future development goals: in Hinglish (English with Hindi mixed in), English, and Hindi. As well as detailed reports on various areas of Defense and Development. In generally quite objective, serious, “dry” and devoid of the stupidity of private English language Indian media.
Another good source is Rajya Sabha TV, this the official channel of the Indian “Senate” (Rajya Sabha, House of Lords), sort of equivalent to the US congressional research TV. Heres an excellent 20-30min report by Rajya Sabha TV on Indian Strategy and policy on the Indian Ocean Region and stopping Chinese military encroachment (including the successful shutdown of the string of pearls in hanbantota, Maldives and Chittagong ports by Modi.).
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VIyX0DCaa1U
Re doordarshan news broadcasts in English or Hindi, the subtitles will be Devanagri text- Hindi Lang, with very little effort you can get upto speed reading simple terms and later sentences. All while getting upto date on the daily news.
but truly if you want to get upto speed on the lingua franca then it’s Hindi that you need learn. However, if you have a family that commonly speaks Tamil at home, then you can considered practicing that too. Tamil is a beautiful lang, it’s ancient and I put up there with Sanskrit.
Hindi is very easy to learn if you’ve already been exposed to Indic languages as a child (including Tamil even if you can’t speak it now). The Devanagri alphabet is very straight forward and easy to pick up, it is an “abugida” alphabet, meaning it is phonetic, you spell words exactly as they sound, unlike the nonsense of English spelling rules and memorization, spelling in Hindi is logical and consistent. The same applies to Tamil.
Upon absorbing the alphabet (2 hours to an entire day, depending on your familiarity with spoken Hindi) you can begin reading words immediately, it is that fast and efficient.
The other option is a formal course offered at a your local Hindu Temple or community college. It really depends on you and what you’re comfortable with.
Student,
I don’t remember ever engaging into conversation with you (as with Mirror). Have gone through your points, would like to respond as given below:
“Aryan Invasion theory is a creation of colonial times …Youtube page….
Sorry, Youtube can be a good learning platform for software or engineering, but for subjects like history, anthropology, sociology, politics, economics in-depth knowledge can be gained only through serious study of books authored by scholars (irrespective of country, language, ethnicity). British colonial masters didn’t preach anything better or worse than what the AZ controlled internet and media spreads as propaganda (e.g. it is well-known how the information technology platforms like Facebook, Twitter, Google act as tools to benefit the AZ clique of USA/UK/NATO).
I didn’t mention anything called “Aryan Invasion theory” – history and archeology clearly show that the Aryan settlements of north-west and north (undivided) India didn’t follow the framework and pattern of the much older Harappan civilization. Had Aryans and Harappans stayed during the same period, certainly Aryans would get influenced by Harappan townships, and vice versa. Had Aryans and Harappans been one and same, Aryan civilization across north India should have dozens of advanced townships like Harappa (in far west of undivided India). Aryans were outsiders originating from central Asia, and when they migrated to Indian subcontinent Harappan civilization was already in decay (maximum probability that the decay was due to climatic change over long period) – hence, Aryans didn’t ‘invade’, they migrated and got settled. The European anthropologists trace the Aryan route towards India through Persia/Iran. Incidentally, Iranians are genetically very near to ‘ancestral north indian’ (Aryans), and Zoroastrian religious rituals closely resemble Aryan rituals during Vedic civilization.
“Indian history is dated incorrectly according to colonial belief of 4004 BC as the planet’s creation …. There is ample evidence that Buddha himself lived at least 1000 years before colonial historians place him…. Supposed historians date kingdoms like those of the Kurus to around 1500BCE …”
You mixed up epic of the Indian subcontinent with colonialist Christian beliefs. I could not understand what do you want to say.
From historical/archeological evidences it is estimated that Buddha lived in 6th/5th century BC. If you have any source that suggest otherwise, please share the info.
In all probability, Mahabharatha epic was based on the civilization in the Indian subcontinent around 1000 BC – the society/politics of dozens of kingdoms that were described in Mahabharatha reflected the competing kingdoms of Aryan settlement across north-west (regions currently known as Afghanistan, Pakistan) and north, east Indian (regions currently in India, Bangladesh). For the Mahabharatha war to be fought around 3000 BC, as you claim, the entire Harappan civilization has to be shifted backwards by 2000 years at least – the ‘dating’ done by the archeologists are firm in their opinion about duration and age Harappan civilization around 3000 BC to 1500 BC (preceded by Neolithic Mehrgarh, suceeded by Vedic Aryans)….
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation
“China and India are not regions that have historically had conflict. Rather, historically, there is ancient trade and cultural exchange between these regions. Focusing on who had total control of China or India misses the point that you do not need a unified empire to have trade relations. These are civilisational blocs – regions that share a similar civilisational outlook. It is not a coincidence that south-east Asia is a mix of Chinese and Indian influence.”
Can’t agree any more !
That was the message of my note – India should come forward and join Eurasian resistance, and become part of OBOR … That will be beneficial for India in the long term. Becoming a stooge of AZ clique may serve the objectives of the crypto-Jew psychopaths and sociopaths, but that will not bring succour to the poor peoples’ sufferings. (sorry to say that, some of the Indians who comment here, show lack of respect towards other’s views, use language that fits megalomaniacs, and write more with sentimental feelings than with facts backed by research. it’s unfortunate.)
Totally agreed with you. Just to add one point – Software Engineering or Information Technology learning through Youtube also won’t give any concrete knowledge [as a software developer by study and profession]
You 2 are confusing two Aryan migration issues. The Aryan migration from Europe to central Asia /India according to Adolf Hitler and even the British is fake, it was the other way around. Then the Aryan migration from central Asia to North India is true, but they came from North India originally anyway. That’s why the language groupings are called Indo European or Indo Iranian (Aryan), because it all started in India. There was lots of movement in those days, sometimes back and forth. Its just that the Indians who went north came back a bit paler later on due to some mutations. Then the Muslims came along and North India got more paler still, as compared to South India.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mp8Nxhh7Sg
Straight Bat,
Your knowledge of Indian History and the discredited fraud known as the Aryan invasion theory (who’s past proponents have also walked away from and agree that it is not valid) is out of date by 50 years. Genetic evidence also has disproven this nonsense. Others such as gT and Student have presented the situation better and more accurately than the version you presented.
Your supposition that India is ruled by crypto-Jews posing as hindutva Brahmins is not based on facts, but internet mythology and therefore can be legitimately characterize as absurd (in the absence of hard facts and evidence).
As an example of how wrong your assumptions are, your own statements (below) proves the point:
Sorry, Youtube can be a good learning platform for software or engineering,
That is an absurd statement, please show me how easily you can learn differential equations via YouTube, not to mention statics, dynamics, electromagnetic wave theory, maxwells equations, networks&vectors&matrices, network optimization, parallel processing architecture and design, wavefront and systolic array design and implementation, and whole lot of other basic science and engineering course before you can legally and practically call yourself a computer/software/elec/telecom
engineer. Half of the above subjects require thorough testing and exams to validate your proficiency and practice via an Engineering Lab and equipment for hands on experience. What you’re describing is an alternate reality, that exists in someones imagination and not in the real world.
history and archeology clearly show that the Aryan settlements of north-west and north (undivided) India didn’t follow the framework and pattern of the much older Harappan civilization.
That is not true. And the use of the term Aryan is being misused and confused.
Had Aryans and Harappans been one and same, Aryan civilization across north India should have dozens of advanced townships like Harappa (in far west of undivided India)
Yes that is precisely the case, and Harrapan (correct term is Saraswati) cities have been found all over India from Afghanistan to Southern India. So based on your own condition the point is proven.
(a) Those numerous Harappan sites are Late Harappan and distinctly 3 or 4 centuries later than Harrappa and Mohenjodaro. Harrappa itself is very different from Vedic culture, . Not a single Harrappan seal depicts the horse and the horse is the most prominent animal in the Rig Veda. (250 references to the horse and only 170 even for the Holy Cow in the Rig Veda !).Late Harappan sites seem to have emerged after Indo-Aryan migration to India from the Northwest. (At present the consensus of most historians, Indian and others is that there was such a migration, but not an “invasion” )
(b) There is a possible Dravidian link to Harappa. Father Heras, a historian of St Xavier’s College, Mumbai proposed in the fifties that the ubiquitous fish symbol in Harappan seals is actually astral , from the word-similarity of the Tamil words, min and meen for star and fish. (There are frequent instances in early languages of such application of symbolic use of similar-sounding words for the other). The Harappan script has not been deciphered, but it is accepted that the script was written from right to left. Possibly like Ancient Sumerian of Ancient Iraq. The Brahui language that is spoken by millions in Baluchistan and Afghanistan is a related Dravidian language and this area abuts the Harappan area.
Why is a memorandum agreement such a big deal for even Pepe to comment on?? It shows that India is happy to be dealing with all. India had a host of strategic deals with USSR – I don’t recall Soviets maintaining a base in India even during cold war. Also – I don’t see much discussion on USA being the biggest trading partner of China or Russia supplying gas to run EU industries (including their weapon industry) etc.
India has its own set of problem and they would prefer to do it their own way – just like any sane society should do. Discussion on this forum reminds me of a moronic American leader who said – If you are not with us , you are against us. No – you can be neutral and do well.
@iamcurious,
Well said.
The double-standards applied to India here by some need to be pointed out.
India’s rise, which is inevitable, is accelerating at a surprising pace, much much faster than many of the commenters on this site understand. Therefore, the views of Indophobes become less relevant at an increasing pace.
But still it good that you point these things out.
Just noticed a news on RT.com – Russian army is conducting first ever drill with Pakistan. Surely this indicates Pakistan has switched ranks from US to Russia. No – well, I thought a deal with Americans proved Indians are planning to join NATO so why not the other way??
A lot of Indian online media broadcast just 3/4 days ago that Russia cancelled the first joint military exercise with Pakistan, due to Indian request over Uri attack (you can just google it to get hundreds of link). I can predict that, this type media pressure only possible from USA, and thus Indian attitude on media action is also controlled from there.
Dear Kim,
You are correct. I knew that Russia had not cancelled the exercises because not a single Russia site confirmed it.
Like I said, the Indian English language media are moronic, often unprofessional, often sold-out and thoroughly compromised (with a few exceptions). They are overly emotional, bombastic and quite sloppy. They’re behavior is borderline hysterical.
So I have found it thoroughly amusing to see the egg all over the Indian media’s face on completely getting this wrong.
The problem is that Pakistan has politicians who suck up to the Modern West (Fifth column). Many common Pakistani would prefer an alliance with Russia and so would I.
I am sure that the US behind the scenes is using her influence (incl. NGO’s) to prevent Pakistan and Russia from getting closer.
TMA Bhaijaan, here are a few thoughts for your consideration:
(a) In bootlicking of the West, your politicians are getting competition from the present ruling dispensation in India. The US is sitting pretty in between.
(b) It may not be that easy to jump from one horse to another in midstream. Even last week, it was a US-made F16 that Pak Air Force landed on a highway near Lahore in a demonstration of readiness to take on India after Uri and some of the responses in Indian Media of war-mongering. So it may not be possible to switch superpower patronage in like manner to changing hats.
(c) Fact is Pak is trapped in a Western embrace, from the beginning , something predicted by Maulana Azad, devoted Gandhian , and President of Congress before 1947.Pak has nuke weapons to buttress its sovereignty but is not sovereign enough to prevent US drone aircraft from bombing Northern Areas and displacing internally a million people and causing huge civilian casualties. CPEC will be excellent as it would empower the bourgeoisie in Pakistan and strenghthen the relative weight of civilian govt vis a vis the military. If India has any sense , it should support CPEC for this reason.
(d) I am optimistic even now, because Pak has cultural resources to fight the military dominance and the extremism. The anti-Ayub movement of 1968 shows that these subaltern classes including the working class can potentially challenge the Army-Allah_America combination.Put your faith there . Foreign powers, all of them, will ultimately work in their interest. They are all talking to each other even as they talk to our countries and you cannot predict the deals/compromises that may leave us in the lurch. On balance, China may want Pak to stabilise as only then will investment be possible. US , on the other hand, has an extremely warlike approach to diplomacy and wishes to reduce all countries to charcoal if it can.
(e) Yeh Imperialist logon se hoshiyar. Even before independence they were practising divide and rule. Jinnah had been a staunch Indian nationalust until 1930. He had been senior to Gandhi in the Freedom Struggle, in the sense that even in 1892, he was already Election Agent for Dadabhai Naoroji in Finsbury Central constituency in London. (Naoroji, the earliest nationalist , got elected to the House of Commons on a Liberal Party ticket, the first Indian to be an MP in England). In 1908 and in 1916, he was counsel for Bal Gangadhar Tilak in sedition trials, and Jinnah succeeded in getting Tilak acquitted in 1916.He was never a mass leader and refused to go along with Gandhi’s mass campaigns. He was a constitutionalist, opposed to Gandhi’s agitational methods, though ultimately he watered down even his constitutional preference to endorsing ” the oldest Muslim dynasty, the Nizam’s” in 1947. Nehru ascribed Jinnah’s attitudes to an elitism that did not wish to muddy his hands in mass politics. There may be some truth in this , looking at Jinnah’s failure to commence constitution-making in free Pakistan in a sound manner with good leadership. Ultimately, the first free election with universal adult franchise was held only in 1970, 23 years after independence. Jinnah did not give sufficient importance to the goal of universal adult suffrage. But it is also possible that Congress mishandled the matter. Jinnah had, actually, in 1905 itself, written the Presidential Address of Naoroji at the Congress session. He could, perhaps have become Congress President in 1927 instead of the much younger Nehru who could have got his chance in good time. Or, he could ahve been the PM of undivided India in 1947, or, better still, Governor-General of undivided India then.
Phir milenge ! Khuda Hafiz !
Thank you for your words.
What is BRICS Member India, Up To? is a blueprint of fine geopolitics the US no longer seems either capable of nor is it even interested in. Therefore Obama, and next Clinton, puts out 18 trillion USD into miniaturised atom bombs rather than pure, non-poisoned, US drinking water for the whole nation costing 18 trillion too! Extinction having become this last weekend, September 2016,US’ global foreign policy.
The expectation of how india will behave in this article might have been relevant before Modi, all one needs to do is look at the history of these people, the brahmin hindu elites who have been running things from behind the scenes so the government was able to portray india as some kind of a mythical heaven but it remains an unorganized opportunistic artificial state held together by foreign interests. The insecurity is obvious and they need validation from an entity they think is the strong at the time, after Russia’s increasing diplomatic relations with other countries India is looking for someone that will hold its hands in its quest for dominance over its neighbors, just look at their ideology, “chanakya”, stabbing from the back. This is what Russia must be cautious about, these fascism praising opportunists have no honor or standards. With the ongoing separatist movements getting stronger, its a matter of time before the oppressed millions break away.
“Gandhian way, will be practicing the fine art of nonviolent, forceful neutrality.” Im sorry but i cant help it when seasoned journalists write something that is famous but completely untrue, and that explains the huge holes in their understanding of Indian leadership’s psyche.
Did Gandhi not support each war British were waging and participated as well, was he not extremely racist against African according to his own writings and the so called “non violent” adventures of his were to take over any possible leadership from the lowest caste and control it as Dr Ambitkar (a dalit himself) worried and wrote about.
Anyway John Pilger made a documentary about the “coming war on china”, we are seeing obvious indication of that especially in SCS but also in India’s recent behavior aimed only to destabilize China and Pakistan, and Russia must already have noticed it, India is the ultimate tool for the US and just like it served the soviets India will serve the US, it needs the shadow of a powerful country despite its hegemonic intentions that stem from the extreme hindu ideology, there is a reason why a hitler praising criminal is the PM of India today.
Jetzt bietet sich besonders ein Fell aus Lamm an. Dieser Stoff bzw. das Fell ist sehr soft und auch schonend zum Pferd.
http://www.telinho.net
samir sardana said…
Who is Narendra Modi ?
He is a Hindoo PM who is an illiterate and a son of a Ayah and he himself was a Tea seller on a rail platform
Besides, he is a Gujarati – who are also called Bastards in the Mahabharata ! dindooohindoo
The Mahabharata , Book 8: Karna Parva ,Section 45
The Pancalas observe the duties enjoined in the Vedas; the Kauravas observe truth; the Matsyas and the Surasenas perform sacrifices, the Easterners follow the practices of the Shudras; the Southerners are fallen; the Vahikas are thieves; the Saurashtras are bastards.
The Gujaratis are also termed as a race of Miscegnation – in the Mahabharata ! That word refers to those born of unnatural sex ! Gujaratis are a Bastard race ! They swap wives ! And they do it openly and ADVERTISE IT OPENLY !
https://gujarat.locanto.net/tag/couple-swapping/ http://gujarat.lookingmale.com/WIFE-SHARING/Couple-Swapping-in-gujarat.htm
The Dindoo Hindoo Bindoo PM of India – Narendra Modi, is a Dindoo from the “lowest community of oilmen” (as per the Dindoo caste system) and is considered “the discharge,id.est., the sperm or the menstrual fluid” of Mlecchas (who are also considered scum) dindooohindoo
The Mahabharata, Book 8: Karna Parva: Section 45
The mlecchas are the dirt of mankind: the “oilmen are the dirt of the Mlecchas”; eunuchs are the dirt of oilmen; they who avail of the priestly ministrations of Kshatriyas, in their sacrifices, are the dirt of eunuchs.