by Allen Yu for the Saker Blog
Recently, I wrote a short comment in the piece India’s border policies line with Thalassa noting that “India is on the wrong side of history.” It was too “conclusory” a comment deserves to be better explained. So I’d like to take a brief time why I think India is on the wrong side of history in siding with America against China today.
I’d first like to take a larger view of history.
Historical Context
Human history has for the most part gotten better over the last few tens of thousands of years. Our technology has advanced. Our life expectancies have increased. The last 200 or so years have seen the most explosive advances. The pace of scientific and technological advances has created a world beyond the wildest dreams of our ancestors.
And if we believe that the human spirit of ingenuity will continue, as there is no reason not to, then the best is still yet to come. 90% of all scientists that have ever lived are alive today. If we can have peace and the world allowed to be free from hegemonic oppression, I’d say the future is bright for the human species.
Unfortunately, ominous dark clouds have hung over the world despite all the positive momentum of history. We live in a time of great paradoxes. Though the world is currently in a “time of peace,” with technologies and economies fast advancing, in relative overall prosperity, sponsored Color Revolutions and civil wars have been unleashed upon many nations, devastating regions from Iraq to Afghanistan to Ukraine to Egypt to Syria to Hong Kong. Economic sanctions have ravaged whole generations of peoples in regions from N. Korea to Turkey to Iran to Venezuela.
WWII by most accounts represents a righteous high point in history. It represents the defeat of the axes of fascism and colonialism. Yet, fascism and colonialism never left us. It got transformed and embedded into our new world.
The more things changed, the more we realize that many things haven’t changed. The poor and disposed of the colonial era are for the most part still poor and dispossessed. Russia is still the target of Western aggression after hundreds of years of antagonism. Even China – the presumed challenger to the West – has not escaped the trajectory of this history. Western powers – with their allies – are now actively scheming and working hard to suffocate China economically and technologically in an attempt to shove it back to a place of perpetual subservience to Western interests.
Some may argue say that Russia and China’s problems are that both had overplayed their hands. Russia had overextended itself in Eastern Europe and the Middle East, and crossed the West’s “red line” in Ukraine. China has crossed the “red line” in the S. China Sea, Hong Kong, Xinjiang, etc.
The truth is that it is the West that has crossed the line in Europe, the Middle East and in Ukraine … and in S. China Sea, Hong Kong, and Xinjiang.
India’s Strategic Blunder
It is at this critical juncture that India has decided to pivot toward the West. India is making a gigantic strategic mistake. Here are some reasons why.
- It does not make sense to make an enemy of 1.4 billion people. It’s is one thing to fight a border war, but it is quite another to actually join a group of others to contain the development and growth of 1.4 billion people. The wrath and actions coming out of the U.S. against China has been truly surprising and depressing. It is against the basic rights and dignity expressed in the UN charter. Why should India join that chorus? Chinese have no animosity toward the Indian people. However, the Indian populace – fanned by an irresponsible media with much rumors and fake news – has allowed itself to be whipped into a giant anti-China frenzy.
- America – and the broader West – will not help India to develop. Many Indians fancy that India – after America decouples from China – will take the place of China and that the West is going to help pull India out of poverty the way it has helped to pull China out of poverty. That is just not going to happen. There are a few reasons for this.
- First, America has squandered much of its capital since becoming the sole superpower with its endless wars since the fall of the Soviet Union. America today thinks the world as set up after WWII is set against it, with much of the world leaching off America’s largess. America will have no more of it. Enough has been enough! Never again will America work for another country!!! America now wants the world to serve it, not the other way around. If Indians think America had pulled China out of poverty (Chinese mince at that notion since they believe it is they themselves who pulled themselves out of poverty), they can rest assured America will not be able to do the same for India.
- Second, the West has come to see the world not in win-win terms, but in zero sum terms. For a brief while, the West did experiment with some version of win-win globalism. While it infused globalism with its own suffocating ideologies and rules to benefit itself, it did for a while work on a flatter world. In this “flat world,” people the world over get to exchange ideas and goods and services with each other, for each other’s own benefits, all in a win-win fashion. But that period soon ended. It’s not just Trump. It’s the whole establishment and populace. The jealousy by which the West has come to guard their knowhow, markets, and manufacturing resources for Covid-19 vaccines represents just the tip of the ice berg. The West used to think of itself as a shining beacon for the world. It had first rate technology and science that attract the world over to learn and disseminate back to the world. Now, it considers people coming to learn and bring back knowledge as “stealing.” It considers manufacturing abroad as stealing. It considers R&D abroad as “stealing.” Whatever India hopes to get from America and the West, it is not going to be good jobs or know-how. America wants its manufacturing back. It has drawn from China’s rise the (incorrect) lesson that it should never help or allow another power rise. It doesn’t want to depend on China – or anyone else – to make anything but the lowest value items. It becomes suspicious when others make its masks, medical equipment, pharmaceutical products, software, cars, computers, etc. It will think twice, thrice, about ever helping to create a new peer competitor again.
- America – and the broader West – is in decline. The West is in decline. There is no doubt about it. The writing is on America’s economic wall – or more accurately, in its Fed balance sheet. An economy cannot go on printing money. An economy cannot stay productive with prolonged low interest rates and paper printing, where the most productive and valuable thing it produces are military weapons. Many people talk about America’s “soft power.” I say B.S. If you take away America’s military, do you think America’s “soft power” will stand on its own? No. America’s “software power” will vaporize. American soft power stands on its military power. And America’s military power stands on the might of its economic power. Recently, that economic power is buttressed in part by China (through trade). But now America no longer wants to rely on faraway lands for anything. Once it starts decoupling from China, it will soon realize how weak it economically is. An economic reckoning will come. Such a inflection point would not necessarily bad for the American people. Stripped of its imperial duties and obligations, Americans can focus on the important things that had made America “America” again. But it means the days of the American Empire are ending. The days of America helping to lift another nation from poverty has long gone.
- America – and the broader West – is not capable of negotiation. The West cannot keep any agreement that goes against their interests. When even the slightest of circumstances change, they find a reason to tear up the agreements, with the Iran nuclear deal but one example. Whatever deal India think it is going to get, it is not going to get what it thinks it will get. The relationship will only work song as so India gives up much more than it receives. This is the Western way. Forget about getting a fair deal. Forget about even getting a good deal. India is thinking about forging a long-term deal … I say be realistic. There is nothing special about India that will make the West change. Beggars can’t demand change. The West is not going to change its fundamental ways for you.
- India will miss the boat in the rising Asian Century. The engine of the new global growth for the foreseeable future will be China and its surrounding neighbors. No one doubts that. Many ASEAN nations – despite having intractable territorial disputes with China in the S. China Sea – have decided to join China in building a shared future. India too has been invited but it has decided time and time against joining China because of its territorial disputes with China. This is short-sighted. China and India are old sister civilizations that have long interacted with each other. The notion of a straight line fixed territory is a Western concept. When we fixate on boundaries to the exclusion of everything else, we get led down a zero-sum intractable dispute.
China’s “community with shared future for mankind”
China is pushing forward a framework of “community with shared future for mankind” for foreign relations. This is a rejection of both traditional ideological based framework of international relations as well as the cold “realist” approach.
It is a rejection of traditional ideology in the sense it is truly agnostic about what forms of government or other ideologies other nations follow. As Deng Xiao Ping has been quoted to say, “It doesn’t matter whether a cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice.” It doesn’t matter if you have a left leaning or right leaning, or capitalistic or socialist, or “democratic” or “authoritarian” government, what matters is if you deliver good governance for the people.
It is a rejection of traditional realistic approach because it doesn’t really view might as the end and be all. While China acknowledges cold realism, it also aspires for a new world order that promotes global justice – which can be summarized as true sovereignty of each nation to develop as it chooses for its people.
The way to a stable world then – according to China – is to create an environment where we can raise the water for each other, shelving all conflicts as much as possible. Once everyone is better off enough – hopefully much better off than today – many issues – including territorial disputes – will become much easier to resolve.
Why Shelf Territorial Dispute?
So if we go back to the India and China territorial dispute: sure, the two neighbors can always fight to the death over a piece of territory, but that is missing the forest for the trees. What they need – above all else – is to develop each other’s society, to pull its peoples from poverty, to provide a better future for its people. What they need then is to meet each other somewhere in the middle and to enable each other to cooperate with each other. China’s faith – which should be India’s as well – is that the benefits of cooperation will in the future outweigh – far outweigh – any territorial concession each can make. It will outweigh territorial concessions because the sky is the limit to where each nation can develop.
If you think lifting 800 million out of poverty over 4 decades is amazing, think lifting 1 .4 billion between India and China over the next 4 decades! That’s the kind of vision and possibility we are looking at!!!
The way out of today’s intractable territorial dispute is to shelf it and to focus on things both sides can cooperate on, leaving the problem for a much more prosperous generation to settle on. The important thing is to build a bigger pie for our future generations instead of bickering over today’s limited pie.
Unfortunately India has decided to not only reject that vision, but to ally with U.S. to suppress China’s win-win shared common future from arising.
From China’s view, the world has been held hostage by the West for too long. Too many nations either cannot or do not want to stand up for their right to develop. The cost of standing up to the hegemon just seems too high. Many actually want to work with the hegemony, hoping to for fleeting crumbs of good will and vague rewards, even if it means enabling the hegemon to continue its pillaging and oppression over them.
The human psyche is a strange thing. While human beings have been known to rise to the highest of braveries in defense of justice, righteousness, honor, and faith, they can also be exceedingly weak and feeble. There are too many stories of a man or woman being beaten to death by a criminal, with passive crowds and strangers watching and passing by, doing nothing.
“Give a Man a Fish, and You Feed Him for a Day. Teach a Man To Fish, and You Feed Him for a Lifetime.” The world must go beyond taking short-term benefits from the West and learn to fish by themselves. It cannot always beg for a fish scrap here and there. It cannot keep fighting against or sabotaging each other for favors from the rich.
Too many of the areas of the world with territorial conflicts have arisen from their colonial legacy. The China-Indian territorial disputes arose from British colonial legacy (others that come to mind include the Palestinian issue, Cyprus, Kashmir, Pakistan-India animosity, etc.). The world must be able to through this trap to free themselves collectively from their colonial legacy.
The West – despite all its follies – continue to be strong. It has the most wealth, technologies, and strongest military. It can buy allies anywhere around the world. It can bribe and corrupt most governments around the world. But in the long term, it cannot last. The rest of the world must learn to stand up by itself.
Freedom and Development with Strings Attached
As the world currently stand, if nothing major is done, much of the fruits of science and technology will continue to accrue only to a few nations. The U.S. and the “West” has been the undisputed leader across a wide swath of science and technology in the 20th and 21th century. By their actions throughout history and today, we know Western dominance rests exclusively on their scientific and technological prowess. If their ideological prowess, not their technological prowess, is the source of their power, why are they so quick to demand others adopt their ideologies while remaining so protective of their technologies?
I mean … have you wondered why the West would want to shove down the rest of the world’s throat their version of “democracy” and “rule of law” … but get so worked up when others learn from them knowledge about science and technology?
Today, China is the only power capable of challenging all dimensions of the Western grip on of scientific and technological dominance – at least in the foreseeable future. But just as China begins to appear to be a credible competitor or alternative, the West is mounting an all spectrum attack on China to suppress its ability to access technology and markets around the world.
Thus we see that the West’s preaching of “free markets” and “rule-based economy” has always been a mirage. The British demanded “freedom” because they wanted the “freedom” to pillage on their own terms. They know that since they had the best technology and companies, the world is there for their picking if the barriers are broken down. Hence they worked to knock those barriers down!
The U.S. took on their mantle … and demanded “freedom” … too, also for the U.S. to pillage the world on their own terms. But when their dominance is threatened, the veil of “free markets” and “rule-based” trade systems has come down too.
From the Chinese view, the U.S.’s lack of confidence about China’s rise shows how insincere and hypocritical the West has always been about the world. Many Chinese have long seen through the façade of “ideologies,” and “norms” and “rules” masquerading hegemony real politik.
China’s dreams for win-win shared future are not false ideals. After all, it is not completely devoid of precedence. After U.S. helped to rebuild Europe and/or Japan, has the U.S. not received benefits from those regions? Of course! Not only have they contributed to advances in science and technology, they also provided a market for the U.S.
But there is a critical limit about American good will. Europe and Japan were allowed to succeed – but only up to a certain level. The main value of allowing Europe and Japan some prosperity is not in making those regions better off per se. The main value was in using those regions to contain Soviet Union / Russia and China. Europe and Japan understand their roles as subservient powers – and their roles as first lines of containment against Russia and China.
A Disgruntled West
Today, with U.S.’s political system and social fabric deteriorating, the U.S. is going through a fundamental rethink. The U.S. now openly thinks allies like Japan and Europe have been “taking advantage” of the U.S. The U.S. now wants payback. From its allies, it seeks better trade deals and more “protection money.”
And against China, it is on a crusade to stop its development. In China’s view, this is a red line and truly tragic. China believes the fundamental right of every people is the right to develop. It is the right of the U.S. to want to decouple from China. But to try to form an alliance to constrain the growth of 1.4 billion, as it had already with lesser powers such as N. Korea, Cuba, Iran, and Venezuela is to cross China’s fundamental red line.
India is on the wrong side of history because it is siding with a West that is going to such levels to extend its grip on dominating the world. Some time ago, I remember seeing Trump tweet out an edited version of Time’s cover of Trumpism outlasting Trump … lasting “4EVER”! There is an important kernel of truth to that video!
The West has changed. It is now open about wanting to dominate the world through suppression instead of being the light that draws the world.
Painting Itself into a Corner
In wanting to join the Western crusade against China, India too has crossed to the wrong side of history. In the coming multipolar world, India is positioning itself in a place where it will be difficult for it to develop. The capital and knowhow that can flow from a renewed China will no longer flow to India. By rejecting the Belts and Road Initiates and the RCEP, India is decoupling from Asia’s coming century.
Losing all that, but what does India have to gain? India will not be able to tease more territory out of China by playing tough. If India believes it can hang on the disputed territories against China, so too can China hang on to its disputed territories against India. Whatever India thinks it can do against China, China can do the same to India. This should be beyond any doubts!
So no new territories will be gained (or lost) through India’s current posture. What is lost however is the space for cooperation and mutual growth. India’s rejection of strategic cooperation perceived tactical gain is India’s tragic mistake today.
China is strong enough to go along without India if necessary. It is moving full steam ahead with its Belts and Road Initiative, RCEP, CJK, etc. It has formed a formidable relationship with Russia not based on ideology, alliance, political preferences, etc. – but based on building up and emphasizing common interests between two previous competitors. China and Russia will be friends not necessarily because the people “like” each other – although Chinese generally do have overwhelming positive feels toward the Russian people – but because their leaders have worked hard to ensure that they have develop and enhance many overlapping common interests.
A Relationship of Mutual Respect and Shared Common Future
Russia and China represents the sort of respectful, cooperative give and take relationship that China believes will represent the future of man-kind. They will succeed because such thinking not because you either join China or get kicked out on the high way. No, it will succeed because it will create far more than the West’s zero sum approach.
Now, don’t think everything is jolly good between Russia and China. I am sure the leaders have had many “frank” discussions about their differences … often. Historically China and Russia has had many issues. But rather than just hyping up (or burying, which is just as bad) their past, they have chosen to work on cooperating with each – to each other’s mutual benefits.
There is still time for India to join China. For eons China and India have coexisted with each other without a clearly demarcated border. Yes, in our modern world, we all long for clearly defined boundaries. But if that’s not possible, it should not be the end all and be all! Through cooperation, India and China can build a bright, shared future together, notwithstanding the territorial disputes. Now is the time for India’s leaders to decide if petty adventures on the border and allying with a dying hegemon are truly in India’s interest. Will India go down defiant, proud, and loud – but weak, petty, and trapped in the history of time?
Allen Yu is an IP attorney in Silicon Valley, a founding blogger at blog.hiddenharmonies.org, as well as an adjunct fellow at the Chunqiu Institute for Development and Strategic Studies. He holds a J.D. from Harvard Law School and a D. Engr., M.S., and B.S. from UCLA Samueli School of Engineering.
I’m sooooo dispointed in the Indian gov. They are letting the US play them for fools. Economic projections tell us that by 2030 China, India, then the US in terms of world GDP.. And this is the way it was for centuries before the 1700’s. Divide and conquer is the US solution to stop this. The US would love to have the projected number 1 and 2 to be at each other’s throats.
Who in the US would “love” that?
Not everyone, I assure you. Not I.
Nor many other American readers of this blog, either.
Nor even millions of others, potentially, if they understood anything at all………….about “Divide et Impera” being THE ABSOLUTE # 1 requirement of the Few confounding the Many………………. so transparently, for so many millennia…….which is also practiced within every country and Great Power, as a matter of Mind Control 101 and social control more generally.
Of course, this is the hardest thing to educate people about …. so that they see it…within themselves…and stop falling for it ……like fools.
However, that is exactly where the biggest potential payoff for the evolution of civilization………… and maturation of the species resides.
Ironically enough, at this stage of history I see more reasons for optimism along those fundamental lines in developments coast to coastbelow the attention grabbing chaotic surface of American Democratic cities….than I see in India, presently.
But if the tide is strong enough……any people, any nation…even India…. can adjust …..can break habits that they have discovered clearly ONLY benefit the 0.001%….and no one else.
India is a rimland country detached from eurasia hinterland
As such India is a natural enemy of Eurasia integration and natural ally to AZ oceanic powers.
There is nothing surprising here to be désappointé about.
And Eurasian hinterland countries should not expect anything positive and strategically significant from India.
It is hopeless cause.
Because of the Himalayas? Interesting point. Listened to Indians who were suspicious of ‘Belt Road’ because building super big / wide roads was a way for China to be able to move tanks and Chinese military around them. Can’t really argue that it isn’t, if you can move tons of freight overland then I guess you can move military stuff, it requires a certain amount of trust which is easily shattered by demagogues.
One point I say to people in my office who is a citizen from another country, never trust the U.S. because it is in our interest to stir up trouble because we don’t actually have to live in your part of the world. Unlike you, we don’t have anything to lose by burning down the house.
What today’s world teaches us more than ever before is:
a) The quality of a nation’s leadership is absolutely crucial
b) The quality of a nation’s leadership, unless the latter has been forced upon the nation by conspiracies from without and/or within, reflects the moral fibre of the citizenry itself.
In this light, Nazi Ukraine, Hindutva India, Pindos, and Euro-trash stand out as vile, naff garbage. True, it could be said about the Ukros that their Nazi-infested government was indeed the result of a conspiracy — from without — but they were very happy and proud about it. By contrast, India’s Hindutva hardliners had no need of any foreign meddling to trash their country for the Greater Glory of the West. Last but not least — and most beautifully articulated by the author — the hard-core West (= Pindos and Euro-trash) are going bonkers throwing tantrums at China for her very successful development slandering it as ”theft”.
As an Indian I can only hang my head in shame. “the quality of a nation’s leadership …..reflects the moral fibre of the citizenry itself”. Very True !
Redeeming feature is that there are more pockets of resistance in India to Modi’s fascism than there were to Nazis in Germany or to Musso in Italy. The leader in India today is a serial every-minute liar , who has taken not even one sincere step to combat Corona epidemic , wher India is rapidly becoming no. 1 global hotspot replacing the US. Modi continues to distract popular attention from his failures by raking up inconsequential issues like a suicide of an actor and so on. Meanwhil;e, India has the largest GDP contraction of 23% this year of any country in the world. Migrant workers in millions lost jobs, lost livelihood and for sheer survival returned to their home districts from Delhi, Mumbai and other workplaces. Many dies. Yesterday, Modi Govt has replied in Parliament that “no data exists as to how many migrant workers died” and “hence, question of compensation for them does not arise”. That is the kind of govt we now have in India. China has correctly assessed Modi as a coward and a nincompoop and seems to be confronting him militarily in Ladakh/Tibet border.
Many of us in India are ready to bravely confronting this fascism. There is a mysterious death of a Judge in 2014, a Judge who was trying MOdi’s lieutenant , Home MInister Amit Shah. After the judge died, lo and behold !, Shah was discharged in that murder case. It is within the bounds of possibility that judges in India fear consequences if they allow law to take its course when it leads to successful prosecution of leader-politicians. or otehrwise weakens the fascist agenda of the present rulers.
But as I said, there are still pockets of truth-speaking. INdia has a somewhat rich tradition of democracy for the last 70 years which is more than in most countries , though of less length than for the US. Pray with us for the best,.
v v anand,
Thank you for your well thought-out and humble reply. I’m very happy about your and Biswapriya’s presence on the blog, confirming that there are indeed sane Indian voices who reject the mental asylum which is the rule of Hindutva. I mean, what Modi and his mass base of utter crackpots have done is to give the Swastika exactly the same connotation and significance as in the West: vile, ugly, backward fascism, full stop.
So the fact that Hindutva India is joining forces with Western imperialism, despite what was visited upon India by the British, is no accident. It is the same kinship and master/slave arrangement that Western imperialism has with the Ukronazis. The Ukronazis are the BJP’s most credible clones ideologically and ’civilizationally’: swamp animals foaming, moaning, and groaning about how great they themselves and their country are when everybody with at least half a brain can see this grotesque demagoguery for what it is. I’d say that Russia and China with their incredibly successful governments and rightfully proud citizenry ’deserve’ this kind of animosity from quite inferior specimina: Ukronazis, Hindunazis, Pindos, and Euro-trash. The Russians and the Chinese should see it as a badge of honour, LOL.
All the best,
/Nussiminen
“Sane voices” in India are actually the majority. BJP vote in May 2019 is almost exactly the same percentage as Hitler’s in December (or was it September?) 1932— 37%. Like the Krupp-Thyssen brethren of 1933, Adani and Ambani and other moneybags help Modi to buy out other party legislators after elections are over. The 74 yer-old Republic of INdia is not quite a Weimar republic and so, the battle goes on.
This article by M. K. Bhadrakumar :
“Russia blasts US’ Indo-Pacific strategy”-
https://indianpunchline.com/russia-blasts-us-indo-pacific-strategy/
– helps to add some background to India’s behaviour.
India is allowing its China phobia to cloud its judgment and also make it fall prey to US incitiments and provocations agains China.
Modi is being used as a pawn by Washington.
Selah
There also this interesting piece by a retired Indian general:
https://www.thecitizen.in/index.php/en/NewsDetail/index/4/19355/Wars-Are-Not-Fought-For-the-Sake-of-Fighting
“Our claims in Aksai Chin are totally irreconcilable with Chinese objectives” [access to Sinkiang & Tibet]. China will not give it up.
A settlement is what is needed. Unfortunately,”seven decades of nationalist jingoism and emotional rhetoric cannot be easily undone. No leader, no matter how strong, would withstand the opposition clamour of ‘sell out’.”
But perhaps an all-party consensus may be arrived at, to settle for the “MacDonald Line” – and eschew empty posturing…
‘Human history has for the most part gotten better over the last few tens of thousands of years…beyond the wildest dreams of our ancestors.’. The author’s assumes that our ancestors had the same unnatural dreams as us.
‘90% of the worlds scientists are alive today’; ah yes, the high priests of Scientism (90% of whom work in armaments).
‘Chinese have no animosity toward the Indian people’. So why the constant territorial encroachment on India’s Himalayan kingdoms?
‘The engine of the new global growth for the foreseeable future will be China and its surrounding neighbors. No one doubts that.’ Certainly no one within the PRC’s mythological filter bubble.
‘The China-Indian territorial disputes arose from British colonial legacy…’ China’s more recent colonial invasion of Tibet was the cause, followed by China’s unprovoked attacks on other Tibetan cultural areas in the Himalayas. It’s almost as if these Bhutanese, Nepalese and Ladakhis are somehow considered misplaced property by China.
‘For eons China and India have coexisted with each other without a clearly demarcated border’. Tibet and the other Himalayan Kingdoms have had clearly demarcated borders for centuries.
In my view, the West has one kind of tyranny, and China has another.
”The West has changed. It is now open about wanting to dominate the world through suppression instead of being the light that draws the world.”
Makes perfect sense too. What has changed in the West is its ever more parasitic characteristics. When power is no longer accompanied by any constructive ability or even a plain sense of purpose, it’s high past time to drop the hypocritical cant, replacing it by reactionary, retarded noises. In the case of India, this approach looks grotesque since it has nothing to show for it under current BJP/Hindutva misrule which keeps immiserating India and India alone.
Somebody please tell the Indians their 6-7% growth rate has been significantly due to cheap Chinese economic imports over the past 10-15 years. If they had had to buy from the UK/EU they would have been FAR FAR behind.
Some people like to learn things the hard way, cannot stop such people, even if you try.
The difference between India and China is that India’s leaders are easily purchased for a few dollars by the West. China sees itself at a level of true civilization. China has put down (like sick dogs) those inside its shining city that would betray it to the West.
That is just to the point. The Indian “elite” feel no pride in India. These people have one ambition, to stop being Indian.
China dreams of global domination just like the West. Anyone who believes otherwise is being naive. The commenters here who cheer China to knock off the US off its perch remind me of those in Baltic states and Ukraine who greeted the Nazis as liberators.
China consistently manages to piss off its neighbors and many others around the world. I’ve met people all over the world from Americas to Europe, East to Central Asia and they are all cynical about China’s rise.
Funny the author mentions win-win as if China’s predatory lendings and claim on South China Sea are anything but another form of neo-colonialism. Another funny thing is the mention of the West bribing for alliances when China has been caught doing just that number of times.
I’ll believe in China’s supposed good intentions when they stop acting like arrogant and insecure thugs.
“I’ll believe in China’s supposed good intentions when they stop acting like arrogant and insecure thugs.”
Arrogant & insecure thugs is exactly how I think about the War Mongering USA. So well done.
You must be a closed eyed patriotic Yank to sprout such rubbish. Surely you speak about the USA !
Political economic analysis is all well and good, but like most academic pursuits the emphasis is on the top levels of society. No one goes to University to identify with the poor. When teaching history, for example, the instructor should remember that the great majority of us are not ‘elite’, wealthy or the like. Quite frankly those people are too busy living their lives than worrying about their condition. In the case of India, what seems obvious is not only the condition but the sheer numbers of the poor. Communism under Mao and Stalin dealt with this problem but draconian means. India lacks the kind of ruthlessness that a Red Emperor possesses. With the massive numbers out there sh**ing in the streets, one can’t imagine India being a first world country anytime soon.. or Ever. One can imagine the moon in June, but the simple fact is that Pareto efficiencies dictate that nothing will be done to change the system without cooperation within an economic system. And when a country has to accommodate such a huge amount of subsistence level citizens, coupled with an arch-conservation social system (seriously how can the Caste system compete?) India won’t be any kind of match for China…. Ever
The joint statement outlined a 5-point consensus.
Joint Press Statement – Meeting of External Affairs Minister and the Foreign Minister of China (September 10, 2020)
1 The two Ministers agreed that both sides should take guidance from the series of consensus of the leaders on developing India-China relations, including not allowing differences to become disputes
2 The two Foreign Ministers agreed that the current situation in the border areas is not in the interest of either side. They agreed therefore that the border troops of both sides should continue their dialogue, quickly disengage, maintain proper distance and ease tensions
3 The two Ministers agreed that both sides shall abide by all the existing agreements and protocol on China-India boundary affairs, maintain peace and tranquillity in the border areas and avoid any action that could escalate matters
4 The two sides also agreed to continue to have dialogue and communication through the Special Representative mechanism on the India-China boundary question. They also agreed in this context that the Working Mechanism for Consultation and Coordination on India-China border affairs (WMCC), should also continue its meetings
5 The Ministers agreed that as the situation eases, the two sides should expedite work to conclude new Confidence Building Measures to maintain and enhance peace and tranquillity in the border areas
https://www.mea.gov.in/press-releases.htm?dtl/32962/Joint+Press+Statement++Meeting+of+External+Affairs+Minister+and+the+Foreign+Minister+of+China+September+10+2020
Regards
Diplomats used to ask “is the USA trying to “contain” China?” The answer should be China is doing a fine job containing ITSELF. The hostility of the Muslim regions in the west is substantial. The littoral of Islands on its eastern coast is a strategic barrier MacArthur recognized decades ago. The “belt and road” initiative simply shows how easy civil engineering is without environmental impact statements. Didn’t Vietnam crush China in a border (YES!! BORDERS!!!!!!) war only a few years after the US pulled out?
India, in contrast, not only dominates its eponymous ocean, it has the legacy of the rule and law and commerce that is the stepchild of the British days.
I’m just biased because I like curry.
Why is it still a 3 trillion dollar economy while Chinese is 13 trillion dollars India may well make it but it has a long way to go
Howdy Modi? Do you really think those Texas rednecks would of their own volition hang out with you?
They are only playing you against the Chinese. Don’t be an idiot.
Modi enjoys being an incompetent fool and a silly plaything. Hindunazis and Ukronazis take considerable pride in being ugly and stupid.
China seems doomed. The empire has easily taken control of India, Japan and even Vietnam. In response China has done nothing. It cant even control HongKong.
All the Chinese leadership cares about is there own bank accounts while Chinise sovereignty so hard won, heads of a cliff.
Every computer and mobile phone in China runs software owned by the pentagon, every media outlet in Asia is owned by the pentagon, even in HongKong the media is owned by the pentagon which whips up anti Chinise hysteria. Alipay owns the money supply in China and it has deep links with the empire. Chinise people dream the “American dream”. China buys oil from it enemy Saudi Arabia while betraying its allies. China’s government does nothing as the empire destroys one Chinese company after another. Instead like idiots they try to “Negotiate” with the USA. Most of the world believe the Chinise killed thousands in Tiananmen Sq which is a CIA lie which even the Chinese people believe because China makes zero effort to counter the CIA narrative – And for that reason alone China will lose.
There is no resistance, its just a silly idea we try to believe because it makes us feel better. Like the BRICS was just an illusion we wanted to believe. The psychopaths will pursue there goal. They will buy corrupt politicians and tell the idiot sheep what to believe and there is nothing to stop them. There is no real resistance just a few lonely voices on an internet which will be fully owned and controlled by an Orwellian machine.
Sad but true
Kev, Good points. Agree, resistance is weak. However, China is coming slowly. Russia is the only one that has provided real resistance through Crimea, Syria, dollar dumping…
China just introduced BeiDou this year and finally has its own navigational system. It also has an alternate payment system.
The resistance to the Empire needs a good infrastructure so it can withstand the reaction. The Empire sold weapons to Taiwan and yet China joined WTO and outsmarted the Empire. It is an interesting game.
Yes thats true Max. Russia has provided some resistance but nowhere near enough. It has let the Ukraine fall and even Belorussia is on a knife edge. Russia is not proactive it just seems to respond weakly when its nearly too late. Oliver Stone asked Putin if he thought the British secret services were involved in the salisbury nonsense and Putin replied “No”. Its not like Putin to lie, can he really be this naive. lets remember Putin has no obvious successor and his government is infiltrated with empirical agents. It happened in Ecuador which was shockingly inept.
But even that doesn’t matter, without China Russia has no future. Everything depends on India. With China and India you have 3 billion people, half the worlds population. With China and India together the worlds economic centre would shift to Asia but with out India its game over. With India as an arm of the pentagon even China does not have a big enough population to resist the rest of the planet. If the empire turns India against China then China is surrounded and isolated. Its so easy when you own the media. You just have to shot a few border guards then get your media machine to scream bad bad China and you win.
If India was on China’s side the pentagon would be all over the place taking control of the media, bribing and blackmailing politicians, buying key businesses, funding agents and terrorists, spreading division and discord. But even when its HongKong and Belorussia the Chinise and Russians just sit back and let it happen.
Thats it folks, the few childish comments here is all the resistance there is. I know we don’t want to believe this but you choose between facts and wishful thinking. And if you want to think otherwise please explain why hundreds of thousands turn out in Pakistan to protest a silly “Cartoon” in an obscure french mag but only about fifty people at best turn up to protest Assange’s arrest in London. Whoever owns the media owns the sheep and Russia and China are asleep at the wheel.
Hubris will meet its nemesis, Kev.
The big picture: the Financial Empire & Trump are going after Non-$ countries (China, Russia, Syria, Iran, Turkey, Venezuela …) and not US$ countries (nations trading in $). Non-$ need to be captured so they can be controlled for the dream of a Global Financial Empire.
Here is an opposite viewpoint on Russia:
After what happened in 2008 the Empire was warned not to mess with Russia. In its hubris it ignored and took on Russia in Ukraine & Syria. It didn’t win. Vladimir Putin and his confidants are playing the game well with the cards they have.
Re China:
China is united with Russia and both are making a stand for their sovereignty. They don’t want to be vassals of this Empire. They’re united as a nation and clearly see the challenge. Americans are lost in their alternate reality. When Trump has faced off with China, he often ends up in a jam. Who bailed out Trump in his China trade deal? Why are you ignoring this weakness of the Empire? It can’t even win a trade deal.
Re India:
Name a democracy that isn’t a SUZERAINTY.
India is a suzerainty. Its RBI, in 1935 was private. Who were its owners? They still control India. Unfortunately, due to corruption and nepotism, India hasn’t been able to gain real independence. Its socioeconomic system was designed by British. If India were to act independently then the Empire only needs to attack its currency and bring it to knees. The Empire has offered India jobs, cheap loans and investment…It will be great for China and India to cooperate, however, given existing circumstances it will be a challenge. If one connect dots about India over the last few years, they will clearly see it working with the Empire. No surprise there. China tried by asking it to work together to create an oil buyers club. It offered India the first presidency of the infrastructure bank. India will have to show real courage to end its vassal status.
India has instigated the current conflict with China. Why did its many (50+) soldiers cross the LAC at night? Who gave them orders? Why not wait until daylight? India is being played by outside forces.
Many are waking up to the propaganda from the Empire, including Americans. China has worked diligently to build an independent alternate system. If the Empire would’ve challenged China in 2010 it would have won easily as China was dependent on its trade. It is a different arena today. China is in a better advantageous position.
China & Russia, are de-dollarizing, and joined by EU in using alternatives to the US dollars. More non-$ contracts are being signed then US$ contracts. An alternate international trade system is being established. Many developments are happening. Action speak louder than words. Let’s see if India gains its sovereignty.
Name a democracy that isn’t a suzerainty.
Hubris will meet its nemesis!
You are free persist in you alternate universe. If the Chinese leaders are only interested in their wealth, they would have sold their people exactly what the West wants them to sell to their people, just like Gorbachev did, and the West will immediately stop demonizing China and in fact help it along gleefully. After that, of course there is no more a “peer competitor”, but another semi vassal, just like most of Europe, Japan, and S Korea.
Just so you know, China became the world’s greatest trading (exports & Imports) nation back in 2013
A pic is worth 1000 words …
https://2oqz471sa19h3vbwa53m33yj-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/china-top-trade-partner-2x-america.png
Now the question is how many countries is India the major trading partner of?
The author is right that the US government will not help the Indian economy to get US companies to move there.And I don’t believe India has the government structure,nor the national infrastructure to handle that. India should look around them and see the other nations that have taken some of the businesses that China didn’t get. Bangladesh right next door to India is full of factories serving the US market.And that country is dirt poor,even with those factories.So without a government geared to building your country,having foreign factories will not help your nation to develop by themselves.
The author and indeed the Chinese Government in general blithely assumes that because the Indian Govt and the US Govt both oppose China, they are in cahoots or more pertinently that India is being used by the US in the latter’s fight vs China.
This entire thinking is a mixture of Chinese propaganda along with its ironically US-like “you’re with us or against us thinking”.
In brief, the US is against China because China is threatening the US Empire’s hegemony. India’s beef with China is that just like China bristles against the US surrounding China with bases and forward positions, China in turn is doing the same to India.
Specifically since the 1950s, China has consolidated its annexation/reunification (depending on your POV) or Tibet and built up infrastructure along the disputed border with India while India for various reasons has neglected to do so. (Apart from economics and India’s poor infrastructure capabilities in general, Indian strategists also felt that building up roads on its side of the border would make a Chinese incursion deeper into India easier and thus leaving its side of the border more undeveloped would serve as a natural barrier).
China meanwhile also linked up various strategic areas on its sides and also made Pakistan its strategic partner.
(Pakistan to Saker readers plays the same role against India as Ukraine does against Russia, as a smaller carved out state that through a mixture of inferiority complex and no sense of a identity apart from NOT being its larger neighbor allies with any enemy of the larger neighbor.)
Besides a base in Pakistan, China has also acquired a strategic base in Sri Lanka and made inroads into Myanmar meaning India is literally surrounded by a technologically, economically and militarily more powerful neighbor.
India has long prided itself on its non-alignment and has sought for example to have good relations with countries such as Russia, North Korea, Iran and Cuba to which the West is reflexively hostile to while also maintaining good relations with the West, South Korea, the Arab states and more recently even Israel.
Indeed India has strengthened its ties with Russia even while getting friendlier with the US – possibly one of the few countries to do so.
Thus India’s current beef with China is independent of the Cold War initiated by the US against China. India as late as last year was making very friendly moves towards China with the Indian PM Modi even having a Weibo account in China and two back-to-back informal summits with China’s Xi.
So what changed? From the Chinese point of view three things had changed: firstly, India started to build up its long neglected infrastructure on its side of the disputed border thus bringing India closer to China though still a long way off from Chinese capabilities; secondly, India as an insurance against what is widely seen not just by it but a host of East asian countries as increasing Chinese assertiveness and aggressiveness on its borders as is expected by a rising hegemon, decided to form closer ties with the current hegemon, the US in patrolling the Indian Ocean; thirdly the abrogation of the special status and reorganization of the disputed state of Jammu & Kashmir which though aimed at an internal audience and Pakistan was viewed w alarm in China since China occupies part of the disputed territory.
While India both publicly and privately sought to assure the Chinese that nothing had changed, China from the beginning of 2020 took an increasing hard line at the disputed border starting w Xi announcing that the Chinese army must be ready to stand up to protect all borders and increasing its troop strengths near the Indian border.
This resulted in increased encounters between front line Indian and Chinese troops in their routine patrols on disputed territory as the snows melted in April. While these encounters are routine and there are protocols on how to deal with them, China started to build some permanent camps. A variety of hotspots along the border developed which from the Indian point of view seemed to be coordinate encroaching on disputed territory that the Chinese never did before at the scale.
This series of encounters culminated in clashes involving pushing and shoving (which have happened before and have been filmed and available on YouTube) at one spot. And while senior commanders on both sides were using existing protocols for defusing the situation an encounter turned very deadly leading to the current crisis.
While the Chinese claim that it was India that encroached across a commonly accepted disputed line, satellite maps show that it was the Chinese who crossed a kilometer past the accepted line to erect camps. An Indian commander and his unarmed troops (as is the protocol) demanded that the camps be dismantled. Indian media reports suggest that the Chinese troops who the Indians encountered were not the regular ones known to them – and thus having a familiar relationship with – but brand new ones who were much more belligerent. There was pushing and shoving and when the Indians burned down the Chinese camp and tried to push the Chinese back across the line, there was an apparently well planned ambush by the Chinese who satellite maps show had built up supply lines over the past prior days. This ambush resulted in 20 Indian deaths including the commander (one of the first to be killed) from beating with iron rods wrapped in barbed wire – protocols dictating no use of firearms were carefully followed – and injured soldiers drowning in a fast moving river (whose flow the Chinese controlled upstream). While there were reportedly Chinese casualties as well, the Indian casualties could not be covered up and were known to all.
China steadfastly blamed and continues to blame India for the incident and indeed all the border tension. In addition it made additional claims on the border including the area where the Chinese camp was burned down which was prior accepted to be on India‘s side of the border (which indeed even Google Maps shows). India meanwhile has sought to return to the status ante in April.
The deaths of Indian soldiers and what seems to have been an unsympathetic and even arrogant response from the Chinese turned a mostly neutral to mildly positive opinion of China to very negative in India.
India which is weaker than China reacted asymmetrically by various efforts to decouple from China from the petty (banning Chinese apps) to the more serious (banning Chinese firms from infrastructure projects including 5G). While economically more damaging in the short term to India, the latter seems to have calculated a longer term benefit that also fits in with the current Governments self-reliance policy (with its Make in India echoing China’s Make in China program).
China – and it seems this author – sees this incident solely through the eyes of the simultaneous war being waged on it by the US. While India no doubt sees tactical reasons to ally with the US is some areas, reflexively the Indian establishment is loathe to become a vassal like many European states and Japan are.
This is why India has also redoubled it ties with Russia even as the US and Europe have grown more hostile to Russia. In addition, India still seeks to find common ground with China in forums such as the SCO, RIC and BRICS.
Thus the bulk of the anti-Indian, pro-China commentary that the Saker has chosen to publish is fundamentally flawed in why Indian relations with China have taken a downturn.
What you say may have been true up to the election of racist Hindutva Modi. He’s been to Washington 4 times and consorts with known war criminals which he euphemistically calls “global thought leaders” – hahahahahahaha!
See pic:
PM Modi meets members of JP Morgan International Council in New Delhi
https://indianexpress.com/article/india/pm-narendra-modi-meets-members-of-jp-morgan-international-council-in-new-delhi-6082606/
Worse still Modi has a zionist-Israeli PR corporation doing his promotion
Zionists are *expert at controlling the Overton Window (aka window of discourse) – but they will end up owning him – and by extension India
And the agreement to hand over use of Indian bases to the US was a BIG mistake.
What we dont know is what the Zionist-occupied governments (ZOGs) of France-UK-US (FUKUS) has got on Modi – is it bribery or blackmail?
‘Tis a shame, really
Absolute surrender by Modi to racist westerners ! In 1971, Kissinger effectively allowed Gen Yahya Khan , then_Dicattor of Pakistan to massacre in East Pakistan with Amerrican weapons and support. Kissinger’s priority was to use Pakistan as a conduit to visit China secretly and lay the groind for a US-China rapprocement. End-Nov 1971, (before Indo-Pak war statred which resulted in 90000 Pak soldiers surrendering to Nixon “(..huge success). , Yahya has not had such fun since the last Hindu massacre” clearly, Kissinger was fully aware of massacre of Hindus among other Bengalis in East Pak. And today this self-proclaimed “king of HIndu hearts” , Modi struggles to fit his extra-large grin into a photo-op with Kissinger,.
A correction there. End-Nov 1971, Kissinger (K) went to Pak on the way to China . He returned to Pak from China and gleefully cabled Nixon that trip was “successful” and “Yahya has not had such fun since the last Hindu massacre”. “Hindu nationalism” of Modi is entirely hypocritical when one sees that he rubbed shoiulder to shoulder with K last year in that J P Morgan meeting.
Please explain why under Modi India stopped buying Venezuelan and Iranian oil as soon as Trump ordered it to.
What, are you suggesting That our Great Modi is an Uncle Sam vassal? No way, i am shocked, shocked, i tell you.
Vijay Vallamudi, one need to connect the dots to see India’s duplicity. A false theory will have many holes.
Mukesh Ambani, stated in February this year, “We’re going to do 5G. We’re the only network in the world that doesn’t have a single Chinese component.” He being close to Modi, his statement is a declaration of conflict with China. It takes many months to close investments and Reliance was in negotiation with its investors since the last year. China would see these developments as India joining the Empire and strengthen its borders.
Even at SCO, BRICS, RIC, India hasn’t shown leadership or proposed great initiatives. It has openly stated that it is interested in engagements with the groups but not an alliance.
The Global Financial Empire has a history of attacking a nation from multiple sides. It did this to Germany and Iraq. Jordan who claimed neutrality against Iraq worked to push counterfeit dinars into its neighbor. A team of Red Cross officials was infiltrated by Empire’s agent to enter Russia. India actively participated in the Opium war. A smart nation will take these lessons into account and prepare for the worst. China is being smart as it is not making big mistakes and it has learned from Plaza Accord too!
China has prepared its positions well. It lives under the assumption that any Indian border infrastructure development will be used by the Empire to open another front against it.
Please explain why Indian soldiers crossed the border at night on June 16th. Why not wait until the next daylight?
The unforgivable sin that Modi committed was agreeing that the US could use Indian military bases.
What would any self-respecting neighbor of India think of that?
Regards
As an Indian I can only hang my head in shame. “the quality of a nation’s leadership …..reflects the moral fibre of the citizenry itself”. Very True !
Redeeming feature is that there are more pockets of resistance in India to Modi’s fascism than there were to Nazis in Germany or to Musso in Italy. The leader in India today is a serial every-minute liar , who has taken not even one sincere step to combat Corona epidemic , wher India is rapidly becoming no. 1 global hotspot replacing the US. Modi continues to distract popular attention from his failures by raking up inconsequential issues like a suicide of an actor and so on. Meanwhil;e, India has the largest GDP contraction of 23% this year of any country in the world. Migrant workers in millions lost jobs, lost livelihood and for sheer survival returned to their home districts from Delhi, Mumbai and other workplaces. Many dies. Yesterday, Modi Govt has replied in Parliament that “no data exists as to how many migrant workers died” and “hence, question of compensation for them does not arise”. That is the kind of govt we now have in India. China has correctly assessed Modi as a coward and a nincompoop and seems to be confronting him militarily in Ladakh/Tibet border.
Many of us in India are ready to bravely confronting this fascism. There is a mysterious death of a Judge in 2014, a Judge who was trying MOdi’s lieutenant , Home MInister Amit Shah. After the judge died, lo and behold !, Shah was discharged in that murder case. It is within the bounds of possibility that judges in India fear consequences if they allow law to take its course when it leads to successful prosecution of leader-politicians. or otehrwise weakens the fascist agenda of the present rulers.
But as I said, there are still pockets of truth-speaking. INdia has a somewhat rich tradition of democracy for the last 70 years which is more than in most countries , though of less length than for the US. Pray with us for the best,.
Yours is a very well informed and well written view; in fact so well informed that I suspect there’s a possibility that you belong to some wing of Indian foreign service.
Where I differ from you is this petty skirmish in the high Himalayas and making it the central reason for this conflict.
I have trekked widely in the Himalayas and in the Ladakh, Lahul & Spiti region too. This is an awe inspiring region and even with all Chinese or Indian infrastructure to make a future invasion possible, it will be just a trickle. It’s just not possible to launch a major land invasion from this direction.
I do believe this (India-China) dispute is more related to instigation by the US and western powers.
The Indian power elite is utterly corrupt and therefore they all are compromised. Think ‘Jeffery Epstein’.
It’s a sorry state of affairs.
Comparing the comments here to those pertaining to Ken Leslie’s horrendous piece ”Two clicks to midnight” submitted on August 21st, it seems as if the community is getting appreciably better. There are the usual to hell with the Chinese postings here all right, but they are not setting the tone. The almost total capitulation before the invincible West and its stunt in Belarus was an all time low. Putin and Lukashenko proved them dead wrong.
In the case of China and India, the doom and gloom crowd correctly feels that Hindutva cannot compete with the Chinese (unless we are looking at national self-immolation in which case India wins hands down). So their consolation becomes slandering and belittling China’s achievements and, indeed, the Chinese as a people. Well, I suppose it hurts losing the imperial prestige at the hands of more able leaderships and having to settle for India and Ukraine.
Aquila non capit muscas. :-)
Google translation,MOD:
The eagle does not catch flies.:-)
I’ll be more charitable.
What is happening that a generation of loud and sometimes obnoxious commentators who have sequestered this blog is being challenged by some new thinking which does not automatically confirm their simplistic view of the world.
Since they can’t write, they are confined to fuming from the sidelines – I’m not even sure why given that I’ve always agreed with most of what they said. The fact that they don’t feel safe any more means that unless they develop a talent for writing, they will slowly fade away.
India and China? I endorse the the first sentence by Anonymous 12:58 (sounds like a Psalm for the internet age).
There is a narrative to create tensions between India and China. I suggest one looks beyond that.
India is a civilisational space. Until and unless all are converted like Persia, Iraq, etc., India will remain a civilisational space of its own.
I think what riles is that it is as yet unconquered. It really riles. Do not make the mistake of equating the Indian people, Indian history, Indian civilisation and Indian values with Modi, BJP and other western controlled entities. This includes all Indian media that publishes in English.
I suggest KM Panikkar’s Asia and Western Dominance as a primer. Edward Said’s Orientalism. The works of Joseph Needham documenting technology in China. Lots out there beyond simple narratives.
India bad sounds very much a liberal western refrain against those who would not be colonised in mind.
In an age of information war against Russia, does one not see similarities with an information war against India, Indians and Indian civilisation.
Regards,
Student
“India is a civilizational space” – rubbish! China is a civilizational state of 5000+ years
Until the recent past India was a motley collection of princely states and kingdoms
After that, India became an Anglo-Zionist colony where it took 40000 Britishers to control a subcontinent of 250 million people – using their sepoys of course. After 1948 it had a fig-leaf of democracy
Its only unifying force is the Hinduism which unfortunately has become jingoistic – nothing to do with praise and worship of the Divine
Even the Hindi language isnt nation-wide
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Language_region_maps_of_India.svg
The so-called “leadership” of Modi is nothing more than jingoism – following along *behind public opinion is *not leadership
The best thing that could happen for continued Eurasian integration under the auspices of Russian-Chinese economic development plans (BRI) for trade of mutual benefit – is the balkanization of India
Throughout history – countries have made mistakes. Unfortunately for its teeming millions – India is one such example
Regards
“WWII by most accounts represents a righteous high point in history”
Pompous rubbish ! It was simply another failure of diplomacy stemming from 1914 and might be contrasted with Partition in India 1947, only millions of Ethnic Germans from the Austro-Hungarian and German empires were left stranded in new states created with the blessing of Woodrow Wilson and the isolation of Bolshevik Russia which had been eviscerated in Treaty of Brest Litovsk.
There was little “righteous” in WW2 whether Churchill proposing anthrax bombs on German cities or creation of the A-Bomb or Katyn or the destruction of cultural heritage in every country outside France.
It was yet another war. For 6 centuries the English have fought over the same battlegrounds in Northern France……..hardly a high point to have each generation fight on the same ground.
It has nothing to do with China aiding Pakistan to subvert India. And as for India is the author of this piece a follower of Subhas Chandra Bose for whom WW2 offers quite an opportunity when he allied with Japan and the German Reich to fight against the British ?
Dear Paul,
That is an interesting version of history that could probably earn you a knighthood these days.
It is shameful to cry over the deaths of Germans and Austrians who had willingly started a genocide against the Slavs – twice in 30 years. Was it Churchill who created the Ukraine and “Belarus”? Was Churchill responsible for the greatest holocide of all time – that against the (pre-Christian and Orthodox) Slavs? Did Churchill ask the Wehrmacht to kill and burn most of Byelorussia?
What has the tired Katyn trope got to do with anything? Even if it were committed by the Soviets (and this remains unclear) that would have been a revenge for the less than humane treatment of the Soviet prisoners in an earlier war – as well as the maltreatment of the Malo- and Byelorussians by the Poles.
Cry we shall, once they acknowledge and atone for their crimes.
Katyn is not unclear in any respect unless you think Laventri Beria was a fictional character and Vasily Blokhin did not exist either.
What has Churchill to do with anything other than his sponsorship of Boris Savinkov operating out of Warsaw ? It was Roosevelt’s Ambassador in Paris who was stirring the pot in Poland and his Ambassador in London who was supporting Chamberlain in keeping out of a French problem with its treaty obligations in Poland and Czechoslovakia.
Britain was only involved as a Locarno Power which guaranteed Germany’s Western border not eastern.
Churchill left out of government in 1935 for running candidates AGAINST his own party and being generally untrustworthy was funded by the Czech Government when he was a Backbencher. Chamberlain reversed all the Defence cuts Churchill as Finance Minster had made 1925-29 such as the budget for defences of Singapore under his Ten Year Rule. ie. No War for Ten Years which denied British defences and led to 1935 Anglo-German Naval Treaty breaching Versailles to buy peace from weakness.
Germans started a war because they were stupid and remain so. Austria-Hungary was falling apart just like the Ottomans and Russia was ready to pick their bones.
Great article, hope to see more from you!
India has made so many mistakes over the years.
They call their over-population a “a demographic dividend”. That is utterly ridiculous. Since partition in 1948, the population has gone up by a factor of 4. The median age in India is 28 – half the population is below 28. This means that there is massive momentum in this system.
India’s population will eventually far exceed that of China. Much of their natural resources are imported – especially oil. Good luck with that!
Hate to tell you Alfred, but from India’s POV the “demographic dividend” is their Weapons of Mass Migration.
Already in S.Africa, Australia & the US the Indian diaspora are organizing at the local level. It wont be too much longer that they will start to constitute sizable minorities – say, 10-15% in Western democracies and if voting as a bloc will be able to swing elections.
The other phenomenon is that in Western corporations (esp. in tech) Indians are recruited as CEO’s then the majority-White, majority -Christian staff is replaced by Indians
Remember we’re not just talking refugees, we’re talking *weaponized migration and their threat to a nation state can be broken down into 6 categories:
– Infiltration
– Coercive
– Dispossessive
– Exportive
– Fifth Column
– Economic
Regards
‘Tis a shame, really
Can you tell me how many of those Indians are migrating? I’ll tell you: it’s a tiny fraction of the educated urban elite who have the money to leave. I have a professional degree and I couldn’t even afford to live in one of the posh areas of a metropolis like Mumbai or Delhi. It’s ridiculous to claim that the uneducated labourer who has to wreck his health working in urban construction on the other side of the country from his village is any kind of immigration threat to you.
India remains the largest country of origin for expatriates and immigrant communities with a 55 million-strong diaspora across the world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-resident_Indian_and_person_of_Indian_origin
“Today, the Indian community in S-E Africa is largely affluent and play leading roles in the region’s business sector and *dominate the economies of many countries in the region” – World On Fire, Chua, A, Knopf Doubleday Publishing (2003) pp.113, 246
The Indians on South Africa, Fiji, Guyana, Surinam, Kenya and those that immigrated from those countries to Britain were taken there as indentured labour (a fancy term for slaves) by the British. Are you seriously claiming that there is a plan to factory farm Indian children so as to flood the planet with immigrants?
And for those who dont beleive that the US is executing a China Containment Strategy, see:
US’s1st, 2nd (& 3rd not shown here) Island Chain Strategies
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Geographic_Boundaries_of_the_First_and_Second_Island_Chains.png
US military bases surrounding China’s east (US bases on China’s west not shown here)
https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15442345_10211358729833364_880454791470189865_n.jpg
Remember depending on how we define a base – the US has 1069 bases globally
Regards
US’s1st, 2nd Island Chain Strategies Correct link:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Geographic_Boundaries_of_the_First_and_Second_Island_Chains.png/800px-Geographic_Boundaries_of_the_First_and_Second_Island_Chains.png
US military bases surrounding China’s east (US bases on China’s west not shown here) correct link:
The US Is ‘Encircling China With Military Bases’ August 22, 2013
https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2013/08/22/the-us-is-encircling-china-with-military-bases/
This is pretty much a nothing burger. Yes the the West is a lying, hypocritical, fear-mongering, colonial, imperial, etc. power. No question. So
China is the opposite? I don’t buy it. China is involved on many border disputes itself. It even claims the ludacris border around the nine dash line. Constantly harassing its neighbors. Also debt traps with planned infrastructure transfer is nothing that could remotely be called international development. And jobs for who? For ethnic han Chinese? Millions of them work this projects instead locals. It’s the same colonial game of resource extraction. As long as the country can sell off , gets debt and infrastructure, which will collapse after there is nothing more to sell, just as the West is playing this game. Also, China buys up assets internationally, but walls off it’s own assets like land, real estate, companies – plus you have 0 rights as a foreigner before its CCP courts. It’s all f doublethink. The opposition is crushed inside and outside, if “soft power” isn’t working. For those who have any doubts, the future of how China will treat you is also found in its behavior inside it’s own borders. It’s hard to say if the CCP is representative for its 1.6 billion population (has everyone given explicit consent?), but it can be assumed to be a reasonable proposition in modern political context. So, by taking a look into Xinjiang, Tibet and now Inner Mongolia, you will see the true policy face of the CCP and by extension China. Plainly, slow motion Genocide awaits you, if you are against the CCP. There is no resemblance of freedom of speech in China. Totalitarian rule and suppression for anyone who dares to speak up against the CCP. Total information control. Total surveillance. A criminally corrupt party apparatus with party purges for those who find themselves on the wrong side of a deal and faction. I wouldn’t wish anyone this scourge of depravity to be its ruler.
The West for all it’s own crimes hasn’t build recently concentration camps for it’s own population, so that’s a plus. Even if it’s failing, it is is still better to live here as there is is still some resemblance of rule of law in it. Some freedoms haven’t been taken completely, like freedom of speech, for that I am genuinely appreciative. This general observation is also confirmed by billionaire escape from China to the West, which is massive I may add.
India plays it’s own game and I don’t think it has any illusions about the West after its colonial occupation. Instead it thinks it can be in a better position of investment, power, etc. if it plays the game of hostile isolation. Can’t blame them, if you are surrounded by hyenas it’s hard not to act like one. China sold out its pop to Western capital. Now it has become big enough to play the same game. India is too late to this party and I doubt, as you dear author, that they benefit in the way they imagine it.
Finally, please spare me the sanctimonious prose of human development, as always everyone is conflating technological progress with human well being and progress.
Some interesting aspects of the China India impasse.
1. The China-India border was drawn by British India and was specifically designed to make it easy for the British to put pressure on China via Tibet. This was to be done by having Tibet as a nominally independent country. This border has not been accepted by China and up to now the entire India-China border is in dispute.
2. After the British left India, India pursued a “forward policy” as regards the China border, likely at the instigation of the British/US/CIA. In 1962 the two sides went to war over the issue.
3. So far, India has refused to negotiate the border. i.e. India’s position is that all its claims regarding the border are valid and that there is nothing to negotiate. China has at different times made calls to negotiate the border and has held out possible solutions.
4. From 1952 to 1972 India, with the support of the US, supported armed Tibetan insurgents to fight against the Chinese in Tibet. This included arms, training. logistics, intelligence etc. This ended after Nixon visited China to normalise relations with China.
5. The current flare up of the situation cannot be dismissed as coincidence. It just happened to happen when the US needed to maximise pressure on China from whatever available method. There is a substantial pro-US lobby in the Indian bureaucracy, media, political and academic elite.
For the foreseeable future India is firmly in the Empire camp. India prefers a unipolar world with the US at its head to a multipolar world with Russia, China and others as nominally equal.
How long will it be with the Empire? Until it gets stabbed in the back. We can expect this to happen within the next US presidential cycle.
How India will react will be a sight to see.
Jiri,
“2. After the British left India, India pursued a “forward policy” as regards the China border, likely at the instigation of the British/US/CIA. In 1962 the two sides went to war over the issue.”
See: Special Frontier Force (aka Establishment 22) is a special force of India created on 14 November 1962. Its main goal originally was to conduct covert operations behind Chinese lines
Operations:
– Bangladesh Liberation War
– Operation Blue Star
– Operation Cactus
– Operation Pawan
– Kargil War
– Operation Rakshak
– 2020 China–India skirmishes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Frontier_Force
Regards
‘How long will it be with the Empire? Until it gets stabbed in the back. We can expect this to happen within the next US presidential cycle.”
It will happen within this or any Presidential cycle. Modi is simply a low-grade uneducated buffoon who is ignorant of that. He is a wannabe “high table country”. But US does not want allies . It wants agents to do its bidding, preferably , puppet-countries sending their people to face bullets in wars instigated by the US. No way any Indian PM can deliver that. Already, Modi is fool enough not to see what is happening in front of his eyes. After placing their CIA agents as President of Afghanistan and so on, now they are ditching them and talking to the Taliban who they swore to remove. Never know when the Taliban will make corpses of the present Afghan rulers the way the Mujaheddin slaughtered Pres Najibullah. All this is so plain that even Modi must be realising it. But he is perhaps overcommitted to the US . He has to repeat has to retreat from this US linkage if he is to restore peace with China. That is his dilemma.
Shame, India is on the wrong side of history, Vietnam is on the wrong side of history, many others on the wrong side of history. Why? Because they oppose China’s lebensraum ambitions, thats why.
You are only on the right side of history if you allow China to do anything it wants, you are only on the right side of history if you kowtow. Sieg Heil China, the salvation of Humanity!!!
Bwahahahahahahaha are you even aware of the Modifellating Bhaktonazi regime’s own Lebebsraum ambition? It’s called Akhand Bharat, look it up. Everything between the Arakans and the Hindu Kush is “Indian” according to it.
From America we have
“American freedom is the end of history. American liberalism, free markets and individual freedom and gay rights and anti-racism are the ultimate utopia, the ultimate thing all of humanity has always been working towards … Like this is going to be so great for everything. Its all optimism .. Just big beautiful gay rainbow about how bright the future is going to be if we just get out of the way and let the Jews do ” as they want, etc, etc, etc
Now from China we have
“China is a peaceful society that seeks … a multi polar, prosperous peaceful world co-existing in harmony, under non interference and mutual respect system, with China at center” So its another big beautiful win win rainbow about how bright the future is going to be if we just kowtow and let China do as it wants, etc, etc, etc.
Most of the world fell for America’s BS and now a lot of the world seems to have fallen for China’s BS.
Haha, I remember fifteen years ago, during the Vajpayee and then Manmohan Singh regimes, the going troll tune was “Bush will make India a superpower!” How did that turn out?
Please don’t bother about India. The Modifellating Bhaktonazis are merely the latest of a series of comprador regimes that have held the country in thrall to Amerikastani interests since circa 1985-6.
There is no hope for India no matter which side it chooses.
Reasons:
1. The uncontrolled population explosion. The gibbering globetrotting Gujarati genocidaire gangster’s government has long since stopped even pretending to care about population control. To its paid trolls, “1.3 billion Indians” – whom they claim to speak for – is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. The fact that unemployment is rife, to the extent that their god the gibbering globetrotting Gujarati genocidaire said frying pastries (pakoras) is “employment” is something they would rather not mention. With this level of growth of population no matter what the level of development, it will always lag behind requirements.
2. The fact that governments of India have, since the late 1980s, not been governments of India at all. They’ve been political agents and employees of corporate owners and have lived and worked only for the benefit of those owners. For example Narendrabhai Damodardasbhai Modi is a fully owned property of his fellow Gujaratis Mukeshbhai Dhirubhai Ambani and Gautambhai Shantilalbhai Adani, and works for their benefit only. If Modi falls tomorrow, some other corporate owners will benefit, not India. Ergo, no Indian regime will cater about what’s good for the country.
3. The fact that the poor in India don’t matter at all. The only opinions expressed are those of the Great Indian Muddle Class – self-important, pig-ignorant, fed by media catering to their prejudices – to whom India is the centre of the universe and the only other country that matters is America. Their idea of America, needless to say, is that of Archie and Betty and Veronica from the comics. They are systematically and totally brainwashed to worship America to the extent that one particular rag (the Telegraph of Calcutta) campaigned to have English (UK) replaced by American English in India.
4. The coming utter and absolute collapse of agriculture in India. Groundwater levels are disappearing, the soil is exhausted, farmers are committing suicide in tens of thousands, and yet successive Indian regimes (Modi is just the latest) have bent over backwards to turn farmland over to industry and factory farms (owned by the regime’s cronies, of course). Famine and socioeconomic collapse is only a matter of time, and that time is growing short.
5. India is strategically far less important than, for instance, Pakistan. If India wants to make it a zero sum game between India and Pakistan, any rational country will choose the latter. Especially as the Pakistanis have had enough of American imperialism.
6. The Modi regime’s response to criticism is not self examination but unleashing its army of full time professional trolls, known as the BJP IT Cell, whose purpose is to bully, abuse, intimidate and silence dissidents on one hand and to act as a fake news factory on the other. Though all Indian political parties spread hoaxes and disinformation, Modi’s BJP. Is the only one that employs professional trolls to do this constantly. When you’re only response to criticism is to lie and bully, you are not going to fix the problem. (This site itself attracts those trolls each time it posts an article on India; unlike genuine Indian commenters, those people somehow never comment on non India articles.)
7. Global warming is going to hit India very very hard. The Bay of Bengal is an oceanic dead end; when melting ice caps disrupt ocean currents, a process well under way, it will turn into a cyclone factory. At the same time the Himalayan ice cap melting will run rivers dry. Wonder whether giant statues will help then?
Therefore, don’t bother with India. China has far more important fish to fry.
One thing I have noticed about Indians is that it is very nearly impossible to hold any discussion with them that involves any criticism of India’s great, ancient civilization. If cows roam the major streets of major Indian cities, the vary act of noticing them is an anti-Indian attitude. Ditto for public defecators, filth, squalor, etc.
China at this point is light-years ahead of India. Its cities and infrastructure put to shame many a city in the West. The average Chinese has about as much time for India as Indians have for Central Africans. It is India that remains obsessed with China and the “threat” it poses. Every border of India with every neighbor remains “contested and disputed”. Indians need to ask themselves why.
Leaders like Modi have an easy time when the people they lead are so vulnerable to jingoism, childishly combative, and indifferent to reason and facts. As Indians set fire to Chinese goods in public squares and Modi goes about banning imports from China, the Chinese simply shrug off with indifference.
The West will stoke more and more border disputes and other irritants for its objective is much bigger, namely, the recruitment of cannon fodder for its war on China. India seems to be cheerfully lining up for that privilege. That is why India is on the wrong side of history. Regardless of who wins, the west or China, India for sure will lose.
Did you ever get a chance to read china’s CCP mouthpiece: Global Times.cn.? It reels off nothing but unwarranted criticism of India on a daily basis without failure. China has already done enough damage to the entire world with the Chinese virus beginning late 2019 so no-one needs a lecture on which side to choose. China itself is a virus to the planet.
Let’s get this out of the way before anything else, the BRI, is a form of economic/trade domination. China struggles with excess capacity and will slowly stagnate if it does not find green markets to keep the momentum going. Naturally both sides benefit, however China will almost always hold the advantage in most cases due to its sheer size and weight.
If one considers the petrodollar scheme by the US to scam (i.e. rob) the rest of the world to fund its fiat economy, the BRI will eventually lead to to a similar situation with China – within the next 20-50 years. The Chinese yuan will become more influential, if not constitutes a major reserve currency. Where the US leverages direct/indirect control of oil production (concentrated in several areas), China’s BRI will be more distributed. Though the latter would be inherently more robust, the distributed nature by itself is an Achille’s heel. Leveraging control would be military impossible.
That said, the BRI scheme is more palatable than the US hegemon’s patented chaos and destruction. Wherever or whatever they put their hands on, chaos and destruction ensues. I think the rest of the world is getting tired of this bullshit.
– let’s not kid ourselves with the concept of human society being ever free from oppression. The system, since humans walked on earth, will always heavily favor the rich (with it comes power and influence). Even if free energy is discovered today, it will never fully erode the control the rich have over their respective societies. To explain BRI this way is nauseating. Stick to the pragmatics.
– on Japan being deliberately suppressed, remember the 80s when Japan was booming? Don’t you find it strange that the US dominates majority tech areas today, especially fundamental IT and communications industry. The only areas where the Japanese were allowed an almost freehand was the automative industry and home appliances (to at least keep Japan alive and breathing to serve as a peon) – none of which poses a significant threat to the hegemon’s control mechanism. Imagine a Japan which was never supressed, where will it be today? The Japanese also need to wake up.
– here’s a guaranteed way to make India sit up and listen (and even resist British tentacles). Find a way to promote the Indian rupee as a reserve currency (I suspect this is India’s real target, not the insignificant border fracas). Fair is fair after all with their 1.3 billion population and economic potential. If China balks at this, then I think any friction will never be resolved amicably. A multipolar monetary base is neccessary if you want to build a multipolar world – ignore this and you’re bound to fail.
Youre sadly mistaken … its idiotic to compare how the USA (a ~400 year old white-settler colony) treats the rest of the world with how a 5000 year old civilizational state like China will trade for mutual benefit with rest of the world
Its the same difference between *globalism – the domination of the rest of the world by 1 country (aka unipolarism) and *globalization – trade amongst countries for mutual benefit (aka multipolarism)
The media often gets these 2 terms confused
China’s Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) has generated an enormous amount of commentary and analysis, leading to significant policy reshuffles around the world. But many still get the BRI wrong
https://www.eastasiaforum.org/2020/09/09/getting-chinas-belt-and-road-initiative-right/
If you read the article you may may be pleasantly surprised
Read the article. The article talked about misconceptions but failed in its arguments. Imo, it’s superfluous writing gymnastic that attempts to erect a facade over a work in progress by cherry picking answers. My argument discusses the fundamental, the foundation – not the furniture.
Let me clarify one thing. I am not comparing China to the US (it should be already obvious). This should be simple to understand to everyone. The uptick in trade generated by the BRI, I say again, will benefit any parties linked by it – however, China will almost always hold the upper hand in terms of trade (why should it not?). China’s soft power and currency importance will inevitably rise over time.
The same thing happened ages ago during China’s golden age where it became a regional power (Song dynasty onwards). The BRI is nothing new if one is familiar with the SEA region’s history and politics. Anyone else might need to do a little digging.
Therefore, calling a spade a spade, BRI _is_ economic/trade domination. China sees it as a long term investment, money worth spending. It’s senseless to call it anything else. If the BRI is an inherently bad scheme, no nation would have an inkling of interest and neither would the hegemon try to do everything to halt its progress. At the same time, not everyone detached from seeing the reality.
Note 1 : My unsolicited advice to China, the more velvet layers they try to pile on the BRI, the more it generates distrust. Unfortunately, it sort of goes against their psyche as an innate salesman.
Note 2 : The foundation of the British Empire (and others of that era) was based on (sea) trade. They applied the colonial doctrine.
The 90% statement is dubious, just about all the worlds inventions were discovered between 1870 and 1970.
There really are not hardly any new break thru discovery’s left for humanity, and most of humanity cant afford the cost of all the recent upgraded conveniences of today anyway, in addition to not being able to maintain all the stuff already built with the trend in larger weather systems.
I say humans are going to struggle from here on out, first financially, then physically, then emotionally once the hope driven euphoria has run its course and reality sets in.
I visited Kolkata and also Shanghai and saw their national museums. India has had 70 years to pull itself together. Yet, its museum, a showcase of itself, was dirty, unkempt, and frankly depressing.
Shanghai’s museum was modern attractive and very impressive. Having visited small towns in the countryside of both countries, the contrast couldn’t be greater. In India, garbage everywhere, in China, far far cleaner. In India, young shiftless men standing on street corners with nothing useful to do. I never saw that in China.
In Bodhgaya, the seat of world Buddhism is the tree where the Buddha stayed, and there is now a famous temple there, which attracts millions of pilgrims. The temple’s board of directors is not controlled by Buddhists but by Hindus. Outside the temple, poverty is the rule….beggars by the hundreds and pigs and cows eating garbage.
With all that money from religious tourists pouring in, why is this most important city in India such a disgrace? Where is the money going?
A young woman from university asked me to do an interview/questionnaire. She commented on the ‘lazy’ masses, who don’t want to work. I have an Indian friend, who was born into a farmer family….that is, lower caste. He is very smart, and managed to get a medical degree. But noone from an upper caste will let him treat them. She said they’re lazy. I said, ‘the reason why they don’t want to be relegated to cleaning your toilet is because they have no hope!’
Until India deals with its seriously backward culture, in particular the caste system, it’ll be stuck.
Both Russia and China after their revolutions did the dirty work of getting rid of their upper class parasites and educating everyone, while raising living standards dramatically. Everybody hates the Communists, because ‘everybody’ including now the USA, is finding their seat on the gravy train at the expense of the rest of humanity being taken away from them.
They’re desperate and may do some really stupid stuff way beyond the provocations, sanctions, and slanders, which make them feel good about themselves. But it certainly won’t stop China and Russia from advancing. And it certainly won’t stop conditions in the West to disintegrate. Until, that is, people in the West do the dirty work of throwing out the parasites.
Dear Subhuti,
Very true. After the fall of the Soviet Union, all attempts at improving the lot of the toiling masses stopped and were reversed. They were replaced by crypto-fascist nationalisms in order to keep the lumpenproletariat wallowing in hatred and contempt and remaining unaware of its own slavery.
I completely agree with your point that no progress is possible unless and until the money-grubbing parasites are fully neutralised. That will be the hardest struggle. It will also be universal.
The caste thing is basically a North Indian abomination. In fact just about everything you said about India is true for North India, and North India alone. The South Indian states have a stable population, a far better work ethic, infinitely less social dysfunction, and a different culture and language group from the North.
If I may, I’ll explain why this does not necessarily have anything to do with caste prejudice.
In India, though the constitution forbids caste discrimination, official caste discrimination is absolutely embedded in this same constitution. This is not discrimination against the lower castes but the reverse: official discrimination against the upper castes, by means of which, for example, half or more the seats in medical colleges are reserved for the so called “scheduled” castes (former “untouchables”), for “scheduled” tribes (who lord it over non tribals in tribal states), and for something called “other backward classes (OBCs). These people don’t even have to score as many marks as upper castes to be selected in the same entrance examinations, even though the seats are already reserved for them. So there is a widespread perception that they’re far less competent than unreserved category doctors, and this perception isn’t restricted to upper castes only. Many, or should I say most, reserved category castes and tribe members will scream for further reservation, but will, when it comes to their own treatment, quietly go to an upper caste unreserved category doctor. This is irrespective of whether reserved category people are actually competent; I’ve known many who are extremely good. It’s the perception of cut rate candidates due to reservation that is to blame. And, frankly, after almost 75 years of independence there is no excuse for reservations. If they haven’t worked yet they need to be abolished.
interesting piece. strange to be able to speak of so many regions and not israels high tech takeover that every nation clamours for. makes interesting reading . occasional headlines. researching china israel show huge high tech transfers. china has bri. israel has talpiot. talpiot and bird bard now even access to nasa. some say bunting clover leaf map reborn. israel in india. are we seriously to believe china sits back as israel arms india for conflict without a payoff somewhere. can you say backdoor switches in everything elbit systems produces. intel hasnt produced a chip yet without them built in at a design level. thats some silicon valley alphabet common knowledge. usa balked at first over iron dome source codes but gave in.
who funded mao to create the ccp? they own both sides of every coin we hold in our pockets
I’m surprised it apparently took China and other Asian nations so long to see America and the west for what they are. They don’t do diplomacy. They do demands! It looks like India has never escaped the colonial mindset and has some deep spiritual sickness where they now side with their abuser. What is it called? Stockholm syndrome?
The west, and the U.S. in particular only has the heavy hand. If you don’t give us what we want we will put a virtual embargo around your country and starve your people to death. Does that sound like win-win? Does that sound like they care at all about the lives of people in other countries?
Compare this to the remarks by Vladimir Putin regarding Greta Thunberg’s speech at the U.N.
>Putin, chairing a session at an energy forum in Moscow, said: “I may disappoint you but I don’t share the common excitement about the speech by Greta Thunberg.”
“No one has explained to Greta that the modern world is complex and different and … people in Africa or in many Asian countries want to live at the same wealth level as in Sweden.”
And there is the world of difference. In the multipolar world those people over there, those people who are not us also want better lives. They don’t want to live in squalor and disease wondering if they will have enough to eat today, be able to stay warm and have some clothes to wear.
This difference reveals that the west is not democratic at all. It is totalitarian.
Hello Allen Yu.
Good writeup, though I’d like to add a bit of background.
At the time of independence in 1947, Pakistan and India took separate paths.
Pakistan’s founder Mohammad Ali Jinnah was made the Governor-General of Pakistan, on the petition of the prime minister Liaquat Ali Khan. Jinnah was a savvy lawyer, but he was no royal.
The appointment/position of the governor-general in former British colonies is the prerogative of the monarch of England, as his royal representative.
Symbolically, by this appointment, chosen and generated by a Pakistani PM, Pakistan plotted its own course from day one, as a sovreign Telluric nation, and Jinnah was like a bodyguard/protector, bodily protecting Pakistan from any conspiracies by the outgoing British, or as we say now, the Anglo-Zionists.
India, on the other hand, accepted Lord Mountbatten, chosen by the British in 1946, as their Governor-General.
India, through Prime Minister Nehru, instead requested a special status from the outgoing British, roughly similar to a federation, or confederation, and equalent to the relationship of the Five Eyes States. Nehru was no lawyer. When I was young, I used to be told how India obtained the better financial deal from the outgoing British colonial empire, than the deal Pakistan was able to obtain. When the Indian leadership was asked (by empire) on what basis, what rationale, the Indians were making such a claim for relationship, with the out-going British? The Indians responded that 1.5 million Indian soldiers had given their lives to save the British empire from the Nazis, during WW2. The Indian elites asked for payback.
Symbolically, the Indian elite established a blood claim, using the lives of India’s soldiers, for a continuing relationship with the British/Anglo-Zionist empire. That is the point when India joined Thalassa. That is also the point when the old British empire continued to function as before, in a now rump India, under new Indian management. China and Pakistan were never hoodwinked.
Remember these dead soldiers were Hindu, Muslim and Christian, and other faiths. Pakistan could have made such a claim, but did not.
With the rise of China, especially during the last five years, the Indians elites were given many opportunities to cross political boundries, join the right side of history, and join Telluria. But they declined everytime. These are some of the anecdotes I was told, when young, and thus my observation of the current situation India is in.
Thank you,
Noel Monteiro
“China and Pakistan were never hoodwinked”.
Pakistan joined SEATO and CENTO, became a staging post for U 2 spy flights, and then a training ground for jihadis to send into Afghanistan. Pakistan merely became a full time slave of the Amerikastani Empire instead of a toady of the British.
The US are dreaming of India going to war with China and to see almost 3 billions people killing each others. The US think that it is possible to corrupt enough the Indian elite to trigger the expected war againt China. The US want to destroy China but they don’t want to do the dirty job and want to use India as a proxy. That is all.
Exactly, bang on! Please see my post above. The main danger of India “Joining the West” at this juncture of history is that NATO is seeking cannon fodder for its war on China, and India is lining up for that privilege. As the West lines up more and more ducks, the chances of war on China increase. And that, we well need to bear in mind, will be no minor war. These petty border squabbles are so darned silly but, alas, so dangerous for world peace.
There won’t be a India-China war.
At some point the Indians will ask for US backing for a war against China and the US will refuse. This is the point at which India will come of age and negotiations with China will be the viable option for India.
Just hope that this point doesn’t come after too many people have died.
India is all set to be fractured, broken into several smaller nations; this has parcially already been achieved by china wresting away very strategic portions of territories from west to east in the north.
For leading nations you need extraordinary statesmen, visionaries, but India chose a divisive man who was for 10 years on American and European nations terrorist list for inciting murder of thousands of minorities.
Far from being being an educated statesman; this man has a background of a railway station tea seller. Man has now divided India into Hindutva facists verses other ethnic and religious minority groups and now it’s not possible to recover the situation except create separate home lands for these minority groups, namely; Christians, Sikhs, Bengalis, Muslims, etc.
Anyone following the moment in history when Singh transitioned to Modi will have a clear picture of the morass Modi has made of the opportunities that were at India’s doorstep.
Modi atop the cultural and societal issues of India is just too much.
India has caste and colonization issues and enormous corruption problems.
Modi has made all of these profound issues worse.
The setback for India will be a decade lost, and in the age of digital economies and the transformation of global power from uni- to multi-, India will be a loser of the first half of the 21st Century.
Modi may be putting India a full generation off-pace the other developing nations.
Trying to move 1.4+ Billion people forward may become impossible. There is no social organizational structure within India like the Chinese and Vietnamese and South Koreans had.
Modi is the architect of a profound tragedy.
Really Larch
India is beyond the comprehension of you all. It is a very profound Land. We have see many civilization has come and gone in front of India and I doubt if even European country would exist in its present form. So don’t worry about India. It had/has its own economy and is a very self Reliant country which has only given to the world.
Sanjay
At the fundamental level, it’s the caste system (still alive today), compounded with regional differences. This effectively limits talent and free enterprise spirit for India.
So peasants wallow in peasantry, the higher caste would balk at uplifting the peasantry. India, figuratively speaking, is still stuck in the medieval era. This feudal concept may have worked back then but not today.
India’s general infrastructure will always remain poor as long as they maintain the system (resulting in gigantic Jupiter sized disparity in income level). Without reliable infrastructure, the economy stagnates and will remain largely low tech products.
Read the essay with interest as it attempts to show the Chinese view of their big neighbour. Some of it is a wee bit naive but in some aspects it’s spot on.
Modi, in my opinion, can be compared to Trump, but in one sense only, same overblown egotism and narcissism. Modi’s ego gets a fantastic boost every time he is being seen rubbing shoulders with “big players”- that makes him feel very important, where he thinks he is on the “big chessboard”, a global player.
What he does not seem to fully comprehend is that he is definitely not a member of that “big boys club” and never will be, no matter how hard he tries. (Trump is in the exactly same boat here by the way – not a member, an outsider).
Meantime Modi is being manipulated and used, as per usual – in this case help to “contain China”. His attempts to keep in with Russia at the same time is another example of trying to sit on two chairs at once, a-la Erdogan or Lukashenko, but we all know what happens when one tries to do that..
Indian economy is mostly controlled by Indian “elite” or whatever one wants to call them, who have totally invested themselves with the West, in their case, mostly with USA. That also includes politics, education and media.
This is the reason Modi is being kept in “power” – he does not rock the boat, on the contrary – he is getting his much needed daily ego massage. The problem for India is that there is NO ONE that is able to change the course and as such it will hit the bottom whem the hegemon that they have firmly attached themselves to, collapses. Continuing with the “boat” theme, they sadly would have also “missed the boat” integrating themselves in “Asian Century” – the one that’s coming. Great pity, India is an old civilisational nation, heading totally wrong path, so I tend to agree here with the author in some ways.
My two cents worth..
Hi Katerina,
i hope you understand what narcissism is. You have no Idea what PM Modi is. He is doing for India not for the rest of the world. India is the only country which has given to world a lot and still. You keep your economy with you. We have seen what it did to India when the west came with its product. Only India is without Narcissism, rest of the world is at verge of the collapse.
I live in US and seeing the DRAMA for last 30 yrs. Thank God finally we got here the great President Trump. You guys have no idea of Past/Present and coming Future. No IDEA.
How do you know India is no Wrong or Right Path? and above all What do you know about India?
(Removed insults.Do not insult fellow posters,MOD)
Regds
Sanjay
Well, for Eons China did not control Tibet. Much like Russian expansion into the Far East created tension with China, Chinese expansion into the Himalayas created border tension with India. Sometimes expanding borders reduces security, especially relevant today with standoff weapons dominating the battlefield.
Well written and well thought out. Looking forward to seeing more of this coming true!
Taiwanese view of current China vs India situation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLV1u9GAzGc&t=611s
Note: Chinese translation is needed.
In short: extremely bad idea for India to confront China.
50 years ago Japan was the country to which the West outsourced its low wage-low skills jobs. Now China plays that role. It is clear that the US wants to reduce its dependence on China in this respect (not to mention that China is becoming too expensive for some jobs). And now India sees a chance to take that role.
Unfortunately India doesn’t understand what it takes to achieve that position:
– investors like stability. An armed conflict with a neighbor is the summit of instability. There is some discussion about whether India or China is the main aggressor in the present conflict. But it is clear that India would be wise to mitigate its belligerent rhetoric.
– investors and outsourcers don’t want to spend much on training and technology transfer. So instead of bending over to open its market India should concentrate on building capacity and keep its market closed to a certain extent. Japan and China did the same in the past. In the end it is not America’s politicians but its industrialists who decide where to outsource.
This sort of thing is masking all real intentions behind a sea of empty words. What India sees is encroachment, first through brutalised tibet (which is not and never has been chinese) then through the “iron brother” Pakistan and subversion in other surrounding states, attempted land grabs from Bhutan and so on. And when India reacts to this there is a universal cry from the comments section of Ukronazis, hindutva fascists and so on, just for self defence? So what is china then that is actually doing these things?
As for the US people in india are asking why india is not aligned with US and has NOT formalised QUAD membership. The idea that india must be in US pocket just for defending itself or must be with US if not with fascist china is itself part of the problem.
Bottom line is that when deeds conflict with words (and sentiment) then a person is unmasked as a liar and up to no good and will be viewed as such.