I agree with Peter – as usual – I have alot of respect for Kim Jong-on and his regime – – and I think the US better watch themselves carefully with him.
American MIC is so out of date in the real world and now its becoming obvious – now the world has to tackle Israel – which is the core problem to the MIC – as well as most other problems –
A very good debate indeed. The only disappointment was that the UN’s part in the North Korean genocide was not mentioned. The UN Resolution 195 despite its inherent illegality set the stage for everything that has happened, and does not deserve a free pass.
Well, my take is simple. And winning as much as it is a pretty bold one.
Let Jong Un undertake secret conversations with Seoul key persons right now.
Participate further in the games to create a better atmosphere. Then negotiate a broader deal excluding the US as much as possible and refusing to bring the nuclear deterrance weapons to the table.
In the middle of it covertly offer a participation of Seoul in the north ´s nukes themselves… in the future within a broader frame of reunification process…
What the shit could the US do?
Well anything washington could do would sure further piss off the south koreans in this development, right? So for Jong Un it turns out a wi- win game.
try to understand the DPRK is not a “regime” it’s a government… continuing to use the propaganda the bunch attacking that government is using is not helping. At all.
Another point i would like to make very plain here, If the war hawks do try to initiate a “Bloody Nose” attack of any sort, it will have to come from a surface ship group of some mixture of ships, That said who here is thinking the government of the DPRK is going to have only ballistic missiles to use?
If i was faced with such a threat i would take the historical record and use it to maximum effect and target that threat with the most effective attack i could muster using my limited supply of weapons…. This well known history has the commanders of the American surface fleets very worried, The never say a word about that threat, but the threat remains.
What is this threat? Look back in time to operation Crossroads, shot ‘Baker’…. The deployment of a light yield weapon from underwater is using the most advantage and the least defensible tactic they can access… I am sure the Yank might wish a easy target to defend, a BMD angle to use, but warfare is not so cut and dry, The command of the DPRK is well aware how to engage the American surface fleets with the odds in their favor.
The Americans know all about the effects of shot Bravo, And i think they are hoping the idea will never take a trip out of nuclear testing history to visit them in battle if they start a conflict. Well, push does tend to come to shove, North Korea has a bigger shove than the MSM is willing or allowed to state. A commander of a vulnerable surface ship force will be all too aware of the risks a nuclear power present to his ships.
I have to commend the DPRK for having enough smarts to avoid becoming a target of the American military machine and doing so with tactics not violence..
The Australian regime’s government ‘mouth piece’ now decides to float some views on ‘good’ preemptive action towards NK just as a Canadian pow-wow gets going (ex China and Russia).
I think one of the comments says it well:
“An armchair strategist calling for a limited nuclear strike.
Why are you publishing this inflammatory rubbish, ABC?
Once the dogs of war are set loose, war will proceed on its own course without heed to any of the protagonists, doubly so for a nuclear conflict.
No war is controllable once the genie is out of the bottle.”
—
That said, the value in the article is perhaps seeing how it voices and weaves all the usual myths into a PR numbing narrative for the domestic audience. As an example, this stuck out (of course not mentioning the destruction of Iraq, Libya and almost Syria).
“These military options [by the US] must comply with international conventions on the legitimate use of force — specifically, that it’s the last resort after all other peaceful means have failed.
Force used should also be proportionate, and ideally the minimum necessary.
Minimising damage
The US is constrained by rules of law, convention and consideration to both protect allies and minimise collateral damage to both allies and belligerents. …”
The zionazis can no more carry out a direct war against DPRK than they can against Iran. The zionazi/neocon mo is to threaten and make a lot of zio-gay media noise. IE: bluff with a pair.
The ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) was once a fairly independent and worthy vehicle for news and other information. In more recent years under a ‘Conservative’ government it has faced numerous cuts and changes. One of the most significant was the appointment of Michelle Guthrie whose previous positions included top management roles with News Corp (close links with Murdoch and his ‘news empire’) and Google.
She has a distinct lack of knowledge regarding journalism and under her the factual scientific programs (Radio and Television) as well as independent international journalistic programs have taken significant hits to funding, staff levels and even in some cases been removed entirely.
Many Australian’s are well aware that “Old Aunty” with the catchphrase “Our ABC” is now “Their ABC” and is nothing but a jingoistic, lightweight news organization. Much of the ‘international news’ coverage is now nothing but a megaphone for the hegemon and neo-conservative policies.
The only valid point that can be raised by linking an ABC article after 2016 (unless it is to do with natural disasters and even then you need to be wary of the ‘fair and balanced’ view of some corporate stooges attempt to drop in) is to highlight that the sheeple are being well and truly fed. I assure you however that there are quite a few Australians who are able to see through the rank amateur smokescreens to try and gain an understanding of the issues as they really stand.
As an Australian I’m waiting to see how the Opening Ceremony and some events will be broadcast and commentated on with North Korea and South Korea marching and in some instances competing as a single nation.
Overloaded with ‘dual’ citizens — and many with conflicted allegiances to other states including the Occupiers of Palestine. I’d believe them on sports scores but little else. Tax payer funded opium for the masses.
A non-partisan public sector perspective has been largely extinct for decades across the board. Now it is simply a mono-culture or ‘business leaders’ milking the system under a failing fascist ideology. Perhaps there are some glimmers of light at the dawn of a return to social values indicated by UK’s Jeremy Corbyn — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7av_K5enbM
One can only hope — and indeed, certain non-linear models of human progression indicate Corbyn (as a character type) is the next step forward past the archetypal Trump/Kim/Erdogan one-eyed ‘Cyclopes’ types.
It’s great that S. Korea got the US to hold off on military exercises – the first freeze recommended by Russia and China – resulting in Kim joining the Olympic competition and having talks with Moon. That’s really great. Of course this drives the neocons batshit crazy and they announce that they are considering surgical strikes against the North. What a bunch of lunatics in the US leadership, criminally insane they are. They can’t stand it when the locals work things out and peace starts materializing, so they have to kill somebody, blow something up. They need a good military defeat, soon.
Yes, Trump and his incompetence did contribute to negotiations, although that was not the intention. As I have written before, Washington sent it’s Navy to the North Korean coast without any real planning, hoping for regime change, or for North Korea top back down. It did not happen. The US Navy is still there, not daring to attack, and not daring to withdraw, because if it withdrew, it would mean the US admitted to a tactical defeat.
Negotiations did not start now, prior to the Olympics. They began as soon as the US Navy set off. It was South Korea which began covert negotiations, which analysts did manage to detect. Washington has difficulty grasping the fact that North and South Korea are made up of the same people, divided by an artificial border. Washington foolishly believes that South Korea really wants to fight North Korea. Nothing is further from the truth.
It remains to be seen what these negotiations will achieve. The US, at least for now, has no intention of removing its military from South Korea, while North Korea cannot even begin negotiations for reunification with US troops still present on the peninsula. China, certainly, cannot permit US troops right next to it’s border.
I see a pattern of countries ignoring the US stupidity and US military, and working things out independently of the US. This bodes well for the planet. The madman is being isolated.
With a little sleuthing around anyone can see that in terms of actual actions..like pulling C5’s outa of mothballs only months after mothballing them at Davis Monthan, calling up reserves, reading ads in papers for pilots… Well, one has to be optimistic, but the recent “false alarm” missile attack exercises…well the list is long and the arena is global…and the logic of empire demands that empire control the Asiatic axis of Heartland…
Withal the empire is preparing to attack. one assesses capabilities, not words.
Soon. It’s pretty quietly underway, but mobilization is obviously going toward something as big, or bigger, than the attack on Iraq.
Some time ago Comrade Putin spoke about a predictive computer “in the Kremlin basement”…
Want to bet about what “Ivan” predicts? I am sure “he” can read faster than I can, but it’s obvious to me.
” Of course this drives the neocons batshit crazy and they announce that they are considering surgical strikes against the North. What a bunch of lunatics in the US leadership, criminally insane they are. They can’t stand it when the locals work things out and peace starts materializing, so they have to kill somebody, blow something up.”
[farther up on thread]
If preparations are indeed under way, the ball is already rolling, horses have left barn, etc. As for “surgical strike,” remember that “cakewalk” in Iraq? I shudder.
I wonder if Trump even knows what his war hawks are planning in backrooms at the Pentagon. If he asked they might just tell him: Get lost, Junior.
Excellent CrossTalk. Seems like CrossTalk is rarely linked to this site nowadays.
I can understand why DPRK want their nukes, after what happened to Iraq and Libya, and that they won’t give them up. However if ever there was any case for regime change, it would have to be to get rid of the current leadership. They are possibly the most disgusting monsters on this planet in the way they treat their own people. They are starve them, imprison them, severely persecute Christians, threaten other countries. The list is long indeed. I am not excusing the behavior of the west towards them, or indeed towards other countries that can’t fight back. It is the treatment of their own people that justifies the removal of that den of vipers. I wish Kim would choke on his beloved Swiss cheese, or smoke himself to death. And those fawning enablers with their stupid little notebooks that surround him should all be dealt with as well.
The west has left it too late to resolve this matter peacefully.
What I am saddened and perplexed by is Russia’s defense and support of the ghoulish regime. There are bigger things at stake than mere geopolitical considerations. This is one thing in which Putin really disappoints me . He claims to take the spiritual/moral high ground in world affairs, yet he allows those evil people to continue to cause great suffering. I don’t get it.
Peter, repeating MSM propaganda about DPRK isn’t the same as discussing facts. The regime that absolutely must be changed is the US regime. It has murdered scores of millions of civilians in the past 70 years, is the #1 state mastermind of terrorism, and is the empire of chaos. The US does only evil in the world and it might succeed in its efforts to start WWIII. On the other hand, I have not seen evidence of any of the claims about DPRK that you made in your post. If there is any, I would like to see it. Certainly the DPRK has not attacked any other nations in recent history, and it only wants peace. The US only wants war.
I agree that the US is a bad number, and the root of much of the misery in this world. I have no respect of the Kazarian mafia that is the USA leadership. But please do not slander me. I have followed the DPRK for over 40 years and my information is not from the MSM. Mainly from Christian sources. They have turned a nation into zombies, and killed many thousands of Christians. I hope that you do not think that is a good thing?
The ruling elite is truly evil. People who defend the DPRK are ignorant of what goes on there. Hatred of the USA does indeed skew one’s world view.
You should read more widely.
Christians, really, or agents of Western propaganda disguised as religion? I have seen a lot of this in many countries… Religion cannot unify the world.
I agree with Peter – as usual – I have alot of respect for Kim Jong-on and his regime – – and I think the US better watch themselves carefully with him.
American MIC is so out of date in the real world and now its becoming obvious – now the world has to tackle Israel – which is the core problem to the MIC – as well as most other problems –
A very good debate indeed. The only disappointment was that the UN’s part in the North Korean genocide was not mentioned. The UN Resolution 195 despite its inherent illegality set the stage for everything that has happened, and does not deserve a free pass.
Well, my take is simple. And winning as much as it is a pretty bold one.
Let Jong Un undertake secret conversations with Seoul key persons right now.
Participate further in the games to create a better atmosphere. Then negotiate a broader deal excluding the US as much as possible and refusing to bring the nuclear deterrance weapons to the table.
In the middle of it covertly offer a participation of Seoul in the north ´s nukes themselves… in the future within a broader frame of reunification process…
What the shit could the US do?
Well anything washington could do would sure further piss off the south koreans in this development, right? So for Jong Un it turns out a wi- win game.
try to understand the DPRK is not a “regime” it’s a government… continuing to use the propaganda the bunch attacking that government is using is not helping. At all.
Another point i would like to make very plain here, If the war hawks do try to initiate a “Bloody Nose” attack of any sort, it will have to come from a surface ship group of some mixture of ships, That said who here is thinking the government of the DPRK is going to have only ballistic missiles to use?
If i was faced with such a threat i would take the historical record and use it to maximum effect and target that threat with the most effective attack i could muster using my limited supply of weapons…. This well known history has the commanders of the American surface fleets very worried, The never say a word about that threat, but the threat remains.
What is this threat? Look back in time to operation Crossroads, shot ‘Baker’…. The deployment of a light yield weapon from underwater is using the most advantage and the least defensible tactic they can access… I am sure the Yank might wish a easy target to defend, a BMD angle to use, but warfare is not so cut and dry, The command of the DPRK is well aware how to engage the American surface fleets with the odds in their favor.
The Americans know all about the effects of shot Bravo, And i think they are hoping the idea will never take a trip out of nuclear testing history to visit them in battle if they start a conflict. Well, push does tend to come to shove, North Korea has a bigger shove than the MSM is willing or allowed to state. A commander of a vulnerable surface ship force will be all too aware of the risks a nuclear power present to his ships.
I have to commend the DPRK for having enough smarts to avoid becoming a target of the American military machine and doing so with tactics not violence..
From the fringes: Drums of war?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-16/the-case-for-using-military-force-against-north-korea/9332766
The Australian regime’s government ‘mouth piece’ now decides to float some views on ‘good’ preemptive action towards NK just as a Canadian pow-wow gets going (ex China and Russia).
I think one of the comments says it well:
“An armchair strategist calling for a limited nuclear strike.
Why are you publishing this inflammatory rubbish, ABC?
Once the dogs of war are set loose, war will proceed on its own course without heed to any of the protagonists, doubly so for a nuclear conflict.
No war is controllable once the genie is out of the bottle.”
—
That said, the value in the article is perhaps seeing how it voices and weaves all the usual myths into a PR numbing narrative for the domestic audience. As an example, this stuck out (of course not mentioning the destruction of Iraq, Libya and almost Syria).
“These military options [by the US] must comply with international conventions on the legitimate use of force — specifically, that it’s the last resort after all other peaceful means have failed.
Force used should also be proportionate, and ideally the minimum necessary.
Minimising damage
The US is constrained by rules of law, convention and consideration to both protect allies and minimise collateral damage to both allies and belligerents. …”
The zionazis can no more carry out a direct war against DPRK than they can against Iran. The zionazi/neocon mo is to threaten and make a lot of zio-gay media noise. IE: bluff with a pair.
The ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) was once a fairly independent and worthy vehicle for news and other information. In more recent years under a ‘Conservative’ government it has faced numerous cuts and changes. One of the most significant was the appointment of Michelle Guthrie whose previous positions included top management roles with News Corp (close links with Murdoch and his ‘news empire’) and Google.
She has a distinct lack of knowledge regarding journalism and under her the factual scientific programs (Radio and Television) as well as independent international journalistic programs have taken significant hits to funding, staff levels and even in some cases been removed entirely.
Many Australian’s are well aware that “Old Aunty” with the catchphrase “Our ABC” is now “Their ABC” and is nothing but a jingoistic, lightweight news organization. Much of the ‘international news’ coverage is now nothing but a megaphone for the hegemon and neo-conservative policies.
The only valid point that can be raised by linking an ABC article after 2016 (unless it is to do with natural disasters and even then you need to be wary of the ‘fair and balanced’ view of some corporate stooges attempt to drop in) is to highlight that the sheeple are being well and truly fed. I assure you however that there are quite a few Australians who are able to see through the rank amateur smokescreens to try and gain an understanding of the issues as they really stand.
As an Australian I’m waiting to see how the Opening Ceremony and some events will be broadcast and commentated on with North Korea and South Korea marching and in some instances competing as a single nation.
Overloaded with ‘dual’ citizens — and many with conflicted allegiances to other states including the Occupiers of Palestine. I’d believe them on sports scores but little else. Tax payer funded opium for the masses.
A non-partisan public sector perspective has been largely extinct for decades across the board. Now it is simply a mono-culture or ‘business leaders’ milking the system under a failing fascist ideology. Perhaps there are some glimmers of light at the dawn of a return to social values indicated by UK’s Jeremy Corbyn — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7av_K5enbM
One can only hope — and indeed, certain non-linear models of human progression indicate Corbyn (as a character type) is the next step forward past the archetypal Trump/Kim/Erdogan one-eyed ‘Cyclopes’ types.
It’s great that S. Korea got the US to hold off on military exercises – the first freeze recommended by Russia and China – resulting in Kim joining the Olympic competition and having talks with Moon. That’s really great. Of course this drives the neocons batshit crazy and they announce that they are considering surgical strikes against the North. What a bunch of lunatics in the US leadership, criminally insane they are. They can’t stand it when the locals work things out and peace starts materializing, so they have to kill somebody, blow something up. They need a good military defeat, soon.
Little doubt it will be back to ‘normal’ programming once the Olympics close and the crowds dissipate.
Yes, Trump and his incompetence did contribute to negotiations, although that was not the intention. As I have written before, Washington sent it’s Navy to the North Korean coast without any real planning, hoping for regime change, or for North Korea top back down. It did not happen. The US Navy is still there, not daring to attack, and not daring to withdraw, because if it withdrew, it would mean the US admitted to a tactical defeat.
Negotiations did not start now, prior to the Olympics. They began as soon as the US Navy set off. It was South Korea which began covert negotiations, which analysts did manage to detect. Washington has difficulty grasping the fact that North and South Korea are made up of the same people, divided by an artificial border. Washington foolishly believes that South Korea really wants to fight North Korea. Nothing is further from the truth.
It remains to be seen what these negotiations will achieve. The US, at least for now, has no intention of removing its military from South Korea, while North Korea cannot even begin negotiations for reunification with US troops still present on the peninsula. China, certainly, cannot permit US troops right next to it’s border.
I see a pattern of countries ignoring the US stupidity and US military, and working things out independently of the US. This bodes well for the planet. The madman is being isolated.
With a little sleuthing around anyone can see that in terms of actual actions..like pulling C5’s outa of mothballs only months after mothballing them at Davis Monthan, calling up reserves, reading ads in papers for pilots… Well, one has to be optimistic, but the recent “false alarm” missile attack exercises…well the list is long and the arena is global…and the logic of empire demands that empire control the Asiatic axis of Heartland…
Withal the empire is preparing to attack. one assesses capabilities, not words.
Soon. It’s pretty quietly underway, but mobilization is obviously going toward something as big, or bigger, than the attack on Iraq.
Some time ago Comrade Putin spoke about a predictive computer “in the Kremlin basement”…
Want to bet about what “Ivan” predicts? I am sure “he” can read faster than I can, but it’s obvious to me.
Not a pretty Zugswang.
” Of course this drives the neocons batshit crazy and they announce that they are considering surgical strikes against the North. What a bunch of lunatics in the US leadership, criminally insane they are. They can’t stand it when the locals work things out and peace starts materializing, so they have to kill somebody, blow something up.”
[farther up on thread]
If preparations are indeed under way, the ball is already rolling, horses have left barn, etc. As for “surgical strike,” remember that “cakewalk” in Iraq? I shudder.
I wonder if Trump even knows what his war hawks are planning in backrooms at the Pentagon. If he asked they might just tell him: Get lost, Junior.
Excellent CrossTalk. Seems like CrossTalk is rarely linked to this site nowadays.
Katherine
I can understand why DPRK want their nukes, after what happened to Iraq and Libya, and that they won’t give them up. However if ever there was any case for regime change, it would have to be to get rid of the current leadership. They are possibly the most disgusting monsters on this planet in the way they treat their own people. They are starve them, imprison them, severely persecute Christians, threaten other countries. The list is long indeed. I am not excusing the behavior of the west towards them, or indeed towards other countries that can’t fight back. It is the treatment of their own people that justifies the removal of that den of vipers. I wish Kim would choke on his beloved Swiss cheese, or smoke himself to death. And those fawning enablers with their stupid little notebooks that surround him should all be dealt with as well.
The west has left it too late to resolve this matter peacefully.
What I am saddened and perplexed by is Russia’s defense and support of the ghoulish regime. There are bigger things at stake than mere geopolitical considerations. This is one thing in which Putin really disappoints me . He claims to take the spiritual/moral high ground in world affairs, yet he allows those evil people to continue to cause great suffering. I don’t get it.
Peter, repeating MSM propaganda about DPRK isn’t the same as discussing facts. The regime that absolutely must be changed is the US regime. It has murdered scores of millions of civilians in the past 70 years, is the #1 state mastermind of terrorism, and is the empire of chaos. The US does only evil in the world and it might succeed in its efforts to start WWIII. On the other hand, I have not seen evidence of any of the claims about DPRK that you made in your post. If there is any, I would like to see it. Certainly the DPRK has not attacked any other nations in recent history, and it only wants peace. The US only wants war.
to pdb
I agree that the US is a bad number, and the root of much of the misery in this world. I have no respect of the Kazarian mafia that is the USA leadership. But please do not slander me. I have followed the DPRK for over 40 years and my information is not from the MSM. Mainly from Christian sources. They have turned a nation into zombies, and killed many thousands of Christians. I hope that you do not think that is a good thing?
The ruling elite is truly evil. People who defend the DPRK are ignorant of what goes on there. Hatred of the USA does indeed skew one’s world view.
You should read more widely.
Christians, really, or agents of Western propaganda disguised as religion? I have seen a lot of this in many countries… Religion cannot unify the world.