Oh boy, I should not have mentioned that. Now it is distracting from the main topic. So, I guess, I might as well clarify.
My dear East Europeans,
Some of you are, apparently, quite offended and appalled by my words about you not being European at all. What you are missing is that I don’t consider myself European either, nor do I consider Russia as part of Europe. Had you realized this you would have understood that I don’t consider being European some kind of honor which confers some higher quality. In fact, readers of this blog know that I am very critical of many aspects of European history and culture.
This offended reaction is, I am sorry to say, often an expression of a deep seated inferiority complex, expressed quite clearly by the assumption that if I say that somebody is not European I dismiss, denigrate, disparage or otherwise disrespect him/her. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Take Russia which I don’t consider European at all. I have always said that we, Russians, are much closer to our Kazakh, Avar, Tatar or Buriat brothers than to Germans or French people. I would even argue that we are closer to the Asian people than to the European, even though our skin is white. And while the Russian elites have always had an inferiority complex before Europe and wanted to turn Russia into a European country, most of us have never felt that way.
[Sidebar: please consider this: do you know how the Slavs call Germans? “Nemtsy”. This word means “the one who does not speak (our language)”. I don’t believe for one second that this label of “the one who does not speak our language” was applied to the Germans only for linguistic reasons (if so, why would the Slavs have chosen this specific non-Slavic language over all the others?). It was primarily a recognition of a cultural chasm.]
There is nothing wrong with central or eastern “Europe” nor is there anything wrong with the Balkans. By calling them non European I express only two things: a) the fact that I don’t believe that the continent of Europe and the culture of Europe have the same borders and b) the fact that I know for a fact that most West Europeans (culture) will never recognize East Europeans (geography) as part of “their” culture (just like most Europeans will never recognize Russia or the Balkans as part of “their” culture). At most, they will accept them as junior partners.
So, my dear East “Europeans” – is that what you strive for? Being the junior partner of the West Europeans? That, of course, is your decision.
But I would recommend that you start taking pride in your own culture and stop trying to prove to “core Europeans” that you are European too. Not only is it futile – it is also humiliating.
The Saker
PS: just to drive you all bonkers – there are at least two “European” cultures. The northern, Germanic, one and the Mediterranean one. The former invaded and subjugated the latter even though the latter is much more ancient and does, really, have roots in the Roman and Greek civilizations. What is called the “European” culture today has its roots in the Frankish Empire which has no Roman roots at all and which subjugated and persecuted the ancient Mediterranean civilization of what is southern Europe today. In other words, modern “core Europe” is not only not a heir to Rome at all, it is its antithesis. I very dubious ‘honor’, imho. Just saying…
It is all in the name :)
By your definition, you allow “core Europe” to hijack all European identity. Sure, right now the core dominates all others in most aspects but it is not the only one worthy called European. Eastern European is still a European identity and culture.
It is like saying that because Chinese and Indian cultures dominate Asia right now, all other cultures are not Asian.
Just find another name for core Europe.
Erlindur, you got it correct! I feel howerer, Saker will not be able to understand your/our point of view on this issue, simply because he is missing the experience of Eastern European identiry.
There is no such thing as eastern European identity….
I beg to differ. I am from the Czech Republic and although my countrymen/women are eager to become “junior Europeans” we DO have a different culture because 1. of our origins in Russia (our ancestors came from there in the 6th century) and 2. of the experience of living in communism/socialism. We are neither Western Europeans nor Russians. But it will take us a long time to admit it and even longer to be proud about it. Saker is right.
Bianca – please go to the Kutná Hora or Český Krumlov. Or even the iconic Staromák.
Then tell me – do you feel like in EuroAsia ? 3000 km from Urals ? I know we’re no Western Europeans. But that does not mean we’re not Europeans. Eastern European = European, though very different from Western European.
Besides that, Čajkovskij was European. Even more different from Western Europeans than we are, but European nevetheless.
It’s all about hierarchy and social position with closeted liberal zionists;)
in-Europe is like high school forever. Better to be dead than unpopular.
You are right again C I eh?
@CIeh,
There is more to it, than you’re saying, or maybe you need to add that the common saying the the “communist” countries was “do not stick out” or “stay in the gray area”
Enough said.
I for one wasn’t offended at all…as a matter of fact, I don’t consider being a European a badge of honor (quite the contrary), nor do I consider myself one…I’m merely defined as being an Orthodox Christian…everything else is secondary. To illustrate: Though Slavic (and supportive for; and cheering for Russia) – I have much more in common with any Georgian (Грузиец) or Romanian Orthodox Christian than with a Russian atheist (or a Macedonian one for that matter). As long as the Georgian or Romanian doesn’t hate me for being Slavic or for whatever other reason – we’re brothers AFAIC (and we’re much closer than I am to my atheist neighbor with whom I share the same ethnicity and say ‘Hello’ to every day).
Your comment is welcome,now on Easter ! I live in Central-Europe ( may I dare call it so,Mr Saker?) and I am Othodox
If you are Orthodox, now is not Easter; it can’t be, regardless of which calendar your church uses.
Can anybody of you religious folks in cluding The Saker _please_ explain to me, why you as Slavs even wishfully identify yourselves with Christianity???
Did you forget your own religions and or never cared about earlier history?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Slav_Rising
“””””The Slavic peoples between the Elbe and the Baltic coast had been conquered and nominally converted to Christianity by the campaigns of the German king Henry the Fowler and his son Otto I, who in 962 was crowned Holy Roman Emperor. Otto had most recently defeated an alliance of Obotrite and Circipani tribes at the 955 Battle on the Raxa. The conquered area east of the German Duchy of Saxony was initially organized within the vast Saxon Eastern March under Margrave Gero, but divided into smaller marches upon his death in 965.
In order to stabilize his rule, Otto promoted the conversion of the Slavic population, establishing the bishoprics of Havelberg and Brandenburg in 948, followed by the Archbishopric of Magdeburg in 968, which in particular carried out active missionary work.”””””
@ Martin from Soviet East-Berlin
“… why you as Slavs even wishfully identify yourselves with Christianity??? …”
Over many centuries, religion has been amalgamated with culture in most of the nations. A detailed description of this phenomenon would certainly require much, much space and time, but is readily understood nevertheless. As the result, belonging to a particular branch of religion (being Christian Orthodox, or Catholic, etc.) has become a cultural identification.
A simplified illustration. I am 100% atheist philosophically speaking, but since my particular Slavic nation is Orthodox, I feel an instant kinship and affection when I meet, for instance, a Greek, and would even stress my Orthodoxy on such an occasion. Behind it are deep cultural and historic bonds, dating from times of Byzantine Empire and later. On the other hand, when I meet an American adherent of the Orthodox Church in America, I do not have any such feelings; in fact, OCA for me is the very antithesis of what I consider to be Orthodoxy (it is all religion and no culture).
Hope this might shed some light on the subject?
Yes, ok, thanks.
As I said: I feel the same (have an Orthodox Ukrainian Icon at home and with me).
It is from my 1st ukr. gf.
Think of the eastern religion traditions as being mystery religions. Faith is expressed through ritual. The Catholics lost it when they started to perform mass in the vernacular. The Protestants are all faith and no tradition. Either you are a true believer or you are damned. Having lived in the orient I must say I prefer the mystery traditions. You do the rituals and attach whatever importance you want to it. With its esoteric aspects you can go deep into it as a priest or just use it to mark important milestones in life as a layman.
@ Anonymous at 4:46 am UTC
Well put.
I guess you are Slavic too, just converted!
“why you as Slavs even wishfully identify yourselves with Christianity?”
I’ll give you my answer, and I am pretty sure Saker would give you basically the same answer.
Because it’s the Truth.
The passage you linked only described western Slavic tribes, the people who hardly exist as distinct people nowadays. Further south, from Moravia to the Balkans, Saints Cyril and Methodius were apostles to the Slavs in 9th century. No German involvement, no uprisings, no forced conversions. Further east, there is some evidence that the first bishop was sent from Constantinople to Novgorod in 9th century, with Christianity becoming the official religion of Kievan Rus’ in 10th century.
Basically for most Slavic peoples the historical experience with Christianity was different from what happened to the western Slavic tribes (Wends) coming in contact with the Franks.
@Mark Eugenikos
Thanks for the clarification.
Makes more sense now, aha.
Do I have news for you – this is what you get for relying on Wiki too much… too bad history is not compulsory… The very reason there is azbuka (Russian alphabet) is because by 863AD, Cyril and Metod came to the castle at Devin (near Bratislava) at the invitation of the then Great Moravia ruler Rastislav. He asked Byzantine emperor to find a way to translate the bible into a Slavic language (which required new alphabet) … Yes, the main reason was to counter pressure from the Frank priests, who sought power at his court… The Slavs were leaning toward Christianity long before your Wiki entry indicates. From Devin, C&M travelled to Bulgaria… and the rest is history (they did not leave voluntarily, though). It seems sadly ironic that today, we still battle the over-bearing nature of our Germanic neighbours… Saker is mostly right, we are Europeans because we share a continent (and lately, the EU), but the cultures are very different. For one, these E. Europeans (I agree, they are not unified) never colonized anyone … but it is hard to persuade today’s EE ‘smart set’ that the riches they admire in the west are mostly the result of exploiting other peoples. The inferiority complex is real (anti-communism nurtured it, too).
Mark Eugenikos
Because my father was Catholic,I do celebrate that also.My family is a mixed one
Thank you for clarifying, in that case it makes sense. My orthodox church is on the old calendar, but when I went to an Antiochian parishes in the US (new calendar) I ended up celebrating Christmas twice, once for each calendar.
@ioan:
Ok, I’m an atheist, but a small bit orthodox (always have a ukrainian icon with me).
But back to Karadzic:
Belgrade Healer: The other life of Radovan Karadzic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ8CnasrC-c&ebc=ANyPxKrxMKouaJR8gKfDFSNZoGmarHhZBHIOj2zXlK5VlRjWHF3HP5i5IwiopEoHwOJxzMIudMe0ANQQbWfkmPPr6Sd2UZY2aQ
I simply cannot imagine he is a bad person.
Do you know that video? Everybody should re-distribute it a million times!
Martin from SEB
Well,Martin,as I told in an earlier post,my father was german (volksdeutsche) and a Catholic.His parents have died during ww2 in retreat somewhere between Hungary and Germany,while my father was in a military hospital in Poland being hardly wounded.My mother is Greek-Catholic and I was baptized as Orthodox.(just to be in the middle)The father of my mother was Armenian and Orthodox.It’s a long story,typical for Transylvania.I am glad being born there.(is that Europe ? – nur lachen)
Regarding Karadzic,yes I have watched that video and the entire war against former Yugoslavia as well.I know many east-germans that in 1999 at the beginning of the NATO aerial campaign went to Belgrad and stood hand in hand on the bridge in a huge sign of solidarity with the yugoslav (serbian) people and as a revolt against the bombardements of NATO.If not the west,than the east-germans have shown a solidarity at that time which is something of shortage in today’s world.
@ioan: Thanks, interesting bio. I had not seen all of these details before, was not here for some weeks.
I liked Romania very much until it got westernized during the past 10 years.
Often I traveled through Transylvania and through the Carpathian mountains which I really love, from both sides of the border to UA, most recently last summer from Bosnia, Serbia.
Was in Romania for the first time in 1988.
When it was debts-free but robbed off by the world-bank (having paid off its trap-loans), extremely poor.
Then in 1992, 1993 and every year since 2007.
Note to the Saker: Now Romania is like France or Italy. You can hardly distinguish it from your beloved West (I personally find this a huge loss, because my Map of what belongs to Europe and what doesn’t is the complete inverse of yours).
You should maybe travel there before removing it from the Map of Europe, haha.
Don’t confuse genuine Romanians vs. Gypsies.
Oh, what a racist I am.
“Europe” is a geographic term. You are talking about something else; better to invent or commandeer some other term, then we’ll have a better idea of what you are on about. Which I suspect is sort of Switzerland, extended,
“I don’t consider myself European either”
Might be the root of the confusion. You are american. Russians are definitely european. Thats my real life Experience.
Naturally, we are all European, all this nazi nonsense about Germans being true whites and Russians being asians is nonsense.
All Europeans needs to unite as brothers and all people need to unite against the globalists.
I for example heard Trump talked about not buying anymore oil from Saudiarabia, if the west could buy all their oil from Russia instead that would be a perfect situation, wahahbism would starve and Europe would prosper.
Sadly racial rhetoric is very common and easy, and only serves the interests of those that wants to enslave us all no matter skin color.
Nonsense, sorry. NS said Russians are essentially a Northern Race, just with some steppe influence here and there. Which is the truth. Look at Russian people. Do you read German or are you referring to post war nonsense of what NS allegedly stated? Propaganda Feindbild was Bolschewismus, not Russia.
Hmm … According to New Chronology, Rurik and Dhengis Khan were the same person, so I guess we can put the steppe influence at exactly 50%.
Liz
“Naturally, we are all European, all this nazi nonsense about Germans being true whites and Russians being asians is nonsense.”
Even the nazis have realized that,in the German Army have been enlisted some 140.000 jews and half-jews (surf on google) More than that,many kids made by german soldiers in Ukraine and Russia have been born,as same as many Soviet soldiers have made kids to german women.WE know that during the war, a few million POW’s have been camped in Germany,they were working mostly at farms in agriculture.The german boys being at war,it happened very often that POW’s had relationship with german women.The history books we learn at school did not mention that also.This kind is mixture is TABU.The nature has his own rules.It is interesting to take a look at the European DNS database.The purity lies in the SOUL
> The purity lies in the SOUL.
Very good (and true) post.
Nationalist bigots (from whatever side) will never grasp that.
@ ioan
What you say is true. I personally knew one of Serbian POWs in Germany, who during WW2 got involved with the German girl on whose estate he was labouring, married her immediately after the war, and they had a large and happy family. (Interesting, one of his daughters grew to became a university professor of German literature in the U.S. …)
Dear Saker, I think you just put your finger right in the wound by naming the lack of self esteem that has and still is being spead over this continent, ever since the end of WW2, and no less thank to the re-writing of history achieved by self proclaimed winners of same! no name calling now…
a hug, ana
Since the end of WW2? Oh no, much earlier than that. Since western Europe managed to subjugate slavic peoples.
TBH I am not sure there’s such a thing as “European” culture or it really depends where you put the limit. France and Germany, to speak about something I know a little. Sure, we can relate easily – common history, mutual human being, loving parents, general human behavior etc. But making an agreement over anything ? Organizing stuff ? We don’t interface that well. It doesn’t seem substantially easier to work with a German than say a Russian, or a Chinese. Nothing impossible, not at all, and very nice when it happens but can’t say it’s more effortless with them than with others from my french perspective. Basically as explained I think here by the Saker himself, the root of European culture if there’s any are fights over border for limited space. A heap of languages, religions, traditions etc. It’s by its very nature an heterogenous place. I am not sure there’s a lot of use for such a flimsy label down the line :P
need to so some explanation as you readers are a bit sensitive sometimes. I profoundly admire european culture, source and nurturing of all western civilization. I do wish however, europeans would finally realize this greatness and repell the boot on their heads, once and for all.
hugs, ana
Personally I think that in Medieval (pre – French Revolution, I think) world the world culture would mean upbringing, e. g. traditions passed down from generation to generation. Those who belonged to privileged groups were ‘cultivated’ to become certain personalities.
Now, however, it doesn’t mean anything, what it means is museums, casinos, Egyptian pyramids, etc. Culture is entertainment for tourists and nothing more.
In the second sense of the word, I think all, ar at least most countries have “culture”, in the first sense I’d say only the small isolated groups have “culture” (not a shallowly learned but deeply ingrained behavior) and not a single country in the world has it.
TL;DR: European culture is a myth, no country is a part of it.
“This offended reaction is, I am sorry to say, often an expression of a deep seated inferiority complex, ”
Yes, I agree fully with the Saker, only people with inferior complex would wanna be part of “European” complex, just to ameliorate their feeling of inferiority! So sad….
Calling the Germans Nemtsy is an equivalent of calling them barbarians (originally also the ones that speak a non language, Greek onomatopoeia for gibberish ).
The inferiority complex in Balkans for instance stems from the German interpretation of real Europe which they portrayed as an idealized classical (pagan) Greece, but which was constructed in fact as an ‘ideal Germany’.
It took roots with our elites educated there and they were trying to prove (and promote such a stance) how we too have as cradle such a constructed Greece (which, as some like to emphasize, in no way belongs to today’s Greek, because they are not “real Greeks”, just the carriers of the name). Byzantine period, which actually shaped our culture and helped it bear incredible fruits, was of course painted as backward. However, there were few wise heads in academia which by their research made space for truth, but it is still not as popular…
Perhaps some of you who have taken umbrage at Saker’s comments could explain to me exactly what ‘Europe’ and ‘European Culture’ is.
I am old enough to remember spending the nights in local guest houses in Germany and leaving my shoes or boots in the hall when turning in for the night. The next morning said footwear was shined and spotless and sitting at my door. Was that European Culture or was it German Culture?
I remember driving in to Belgium one fine summer day to visit a place where my father had fought during the last war. My officer and I stopped at local cafe for some lunch. The service was surly to be kind and the food was at best lukewarm. We figure out in a few minutes they had noticed the German tags on our car. Was this European Culture or was this local Belgian culture wherein they had not forgiven the ‘Germans’ for what they did some 25 years before?
There is no real ‘European’ culture just as there is no real ‘Europe’ beyond some arbitrary markings on a map. According to the current definition of ‘Europe’ my city is in ‘Europe’. Is my culture ‘European’? Far from it, not a shadow of current ‘European’ culture is recognizable in our city.
What you need to do is stop arguing over how many angels are dancing on the head of a pin and do something about the rapidly disappearing by your government oppression individual cultures you all have, or should I say had. I don’t give a damn if this assault on your cultures is from your government or the occupiers of your continent, it is up to you to do something about it. If you don’t the fault is with you and only you.
My culture will never change due to outside influences. It may evolve but that evolution will be so slow that many won’t recognize it. Me, I won’t care, what is here now will be extant for the twenty years of life I have left.
Auslander
Author, Never The Last One, a deep and engaging view in to Russian Culture in war and in peace.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ZGCY8KK/?tag=kbsig-20
Europe is some arbitrary markings on a map that define groups of people close enough to spend the last couple of millennia interacting, trading, helping or making wars with each other. European culture is the combined mix of those people’s cultures, as they evolved so different yet so close to each other, if you compare them to some far away culture like the Chinese.
German culture exists and its an European culture, so is Greek, Italian, Bulgarian and yes Russian. They are far closer to each other than say, Indonesian. Yes people in Crimea have European culture.
What you and Saker do, is define Europe as the remains of the Holy Roman Empire. It is European but it is not Europe. It is just one component. I agree with the Saker that it loses its soul and with their inferiority complex, all the others want to lose their soul as well and be like them but I will not give them that name. If they lose their identity, they become less European, while if I keep mine in a distant corner of Europe, I remain European.
You distance yourself from something that is becoming less European every day. Good for you. That is not Europe.
PS. Last time I’ve checked, there were 42 angels on that pin’s head.
I counted 46 but I can’t see that well now and to boot a few of the angels were little stinkers, they used their powers to appear and disappear so it was difficult to count them. Their delicate and musical laughter was an amusement and quite pleasant.
That is an interesting statement about my culture being European, my culture is distinctly Russian. Perhaps German Kulture had vestiges of Russian Culture? I well remember 45 years ago when wandered around in Germany I was addressed with my rank even when I was not in uniform. Those days are gone in The Fatherland. They are not gone here and in general I am addressed to this day with my rank and my wife carries my rank socially.
Auslander
The bottom line may be this dictionary definition of Europe:
The sixth-largest continent, extending west from the Dardanelles, Black Sea, and Ural Mountains. It is technically a vast peninsula of the Eurasian land mass.
This has always been my understanding: That Russia west of the Urals is, geographically, in Europe. I don’t see how there can be a European culture. There can only be European cultures. And one of those is Russian culture. I expect (not my field) that the Soviet experience had a homogenizing effect on the cultures of all the parts of the USSR, perhaps making it harder to draw cultural lines and define culture areas. The same could be said of the influence of American culture of that of Western Europe, making it ever harder to draw clear distinctions. (Yet I speculate that as long as people speak different languages, the process of homogenization will run into a cultural wall. )
This homogenization and blurring has been going on for centuries. Including in France. There was no “French culture” until the late 19th century and no codified “French language,” either. REgions of France differed enormously in every way, including language, and propensity to attack and even kill outsiders. In the USA, there were huge differences between the four original English-language colonies (see Albion’s seed). Many would argue that “the American way” is a shallow overlay on a country with deep cultural fissures.
So, it seems that the whole “part of Europe” thing is basically a political and economic and ideological construct. Deconstructing that construct seems to me to be more pressing than defining “Europe” and “non-Europe.”
Katherine
Now thats a complex if I ever heard it, “Sixth largest continent.” Out of seven? Perhaps its more apt to say second smallest.
Katherine,
are you Katherine Frisk? She once explained Orthodoxy, visibly without a shadow of own understanding, to the readers of veteranstoday, where Jim Dean looks to it that Preston James PhD and his likes produce utterly misleading nonsense so that he has something he loves to publish. Your insights here, presented with total self-confidence, remind me of that massacre of Orthodoxy by an outside explainer.
When did you hear about France the first time? Last week? Please note that France was not illiterate until the end of the XIXth c (or did you mean the IXth c.?), but is one of the first codified European culture languages. DuBellay published his “Deffense” of French (which peeled off Latin since the Romans were there, since before Christ) in 1549. You can read DuBellay, Ronsard, Montaigne right away today – try that with 16th German. The reason is that the French, of all European nations, had this particular concern for their language and its stability; and since 1635 the Academie Francaise looked and looks after not much else than just that. This is one facet of manysided Europe – and you tell TheSaker’s worldwide audience that it is not!
Yes, regions in Europe differed in the past, independently of a central and possibly already codified language. Until reunification, vee germans had bavarian and sächsisch (=/= “saxon”) accents in the streets and in the radio. Since then all vanished, they are all the same now, incredibly boring.
Among TheSaker’s world wide audience there are ca 1.5 billion Chinese+Russians+ Yugoslavs. Like Katherine Frisk you tell them where and how they live from the depths of… at least you admit: “*I expect* (*not my field*)” (bravo) that the Soviet experience had a homogenizing effect on the cultures of all the parts of the USSR, perhaps making it harder to draw cultural lines and define culture areas.” Well, again the contrary is the case. The commies had and in China still have the habit of bringing scripture and culture to their many “other” nations, enabling many of them to write and read and express themselves for the first time in history. This may lead to the disruption of the whole country, especially if outside enemies like americans, the english, germans and israelis help them to feel like leaving and being rewarded for that. Look at UA, who were simply “small Russians” in the past, but which the commies made a “nation”. Most of the others, however, are not European, and our topic today is “Russia and Europe”. As to Russia, you “don’t see how there can be a European culture”. Again, you have not such an experience (like most others here), but formulate – like Katherine Frisk – a mathematical deduction from the little you know already, without any touch with reality. The problem for Russian intellectuals including TheSaker is not whether there is European Culture in Russia, but whether it should be there, and whether more or less of it would be better. Marxism played a certain role in Russian History, and it was very European: French marxists looked at Moscow as French catholics looked at Rome. Russian authors read, knew, loved European antique and contemporary authors just like authors in France, Poland or Bohemia…
The “political and economic and ideological construct” you are talking about is an administrative matter, UA would be European today on that level if the hollandians had not rejected them yesterday. “The culture” and the “spirit” of Europe, however, are spiritual and cultural things that you don’t have the slightest idea of, because you seem to prefer decreeing to learning. What exactly these things are is seen differently all over Europe, and this is the identity of Europe: being at the same time one and different among themselves – like a big family where always someone is quarreling with someone else, NOT like a nice family, where everybody shuts up when father speaks. So, it is the nazi dream come true of the European Union, playing the role of that despotic and stupid and disgusting father, which is the most Un-European thing existing on that planet. You know: it imposes upon us “a homogenizing effect, making it harder to still recognize the cultural lines and culture areas.”
bp
Brilliant answer to the insulted! The dangers of candour.
Having returned to escape the US forever. Will never return, I welcome the entrance into this group, of which am sceptical, but nevertheless!
I look for another response if time allows. best, Suzanne
Ms. de K; I am mostly a reader here who felt in you post an appeal for introduction, and below suggested some of the leaders could say hello to you. Netherlands seems left out as insignificant in these threads but I expect you have many insights to contribute and should be welcome. I am an aging Texas farmer who respects who you are. It is strangely amusing to recollect all my life seeing your name in stores on the exotic wares on sale. I hope you have checked back.
Dear Saker,
I really don’t understand what are the motives of your post.Are you somehow trying to split your readers and commentators,or to provoke them ? even the date of this posting is calling for peace,the Christians are celebrating the Eastern…what kind of spirit did this push onto you ?
Peace upon You…and Happy Easter to you,your Family and your Friends
Well, I’m a this and you’re a that, so that’s that then….
And if you want to reach there It’s probably best if you don’t start from here….or….aren’t we all the same, just the styles vary….
So you might be using heaps of carbon just to reach there or War&Plunder your way there, because you know that you’re so much superior to me, so therefore you deserve much more than I do, Or Visa Versa….And the beat goes on….and on….and on….
The saker posted a comment in an earlier thread (saker rant about a stolen Europe) which I would just like to delve into a little further. The saker wrote :
“Yes, there can be consequences and blowback, and I often wrote about these, but the INDIVIDUAL European is not in any way responsible for what European leaders have done in the past. If that is your belief, then I reject it”.
Hmm. Let’s see, our “elected representatives” are supposed to be just that, our representatives. Whatever they do, they do in our names. We, by going to the polls to “vote”, are directly empowering them to act for us and on our behalf. If the individual European is not responsible for the actions of European leaders then who is ? The Chinese didn’t appoint the European “leaders”, and neither did the Africans or the Indians or Russians. No, these people were all elected by Europeans. No other nation can come in and change your system for you or elect your leaders for you, this has to be done by the Europeans themselves and none other.
One could of course argue that the evil morons once elected just do whatever they like but that is neither here nor there as this simply reflects the apathy and lack of will of the ordinary European (and perhaps not a little amount of the Im all right Jack syndrome) to hold their representatives to account for the crimes being committed in their names.
Sorry, but saying the ordinary European is not responsible for the actions of their representatives is simply a cop out. You either live in a “democracy” as many of the sheeple are still insisting or come out and admit you live in a tyranny, you cant have it both ways.
I agree with you, you do have a point. The EU is a tyranny in a sense, i´m saying this for some time now, it´s not democratic. But as a european, living in Austria, what should i do? Or what should i do when the Brits or French mess around in Lybia or Syria? Grab a gun and march against London or Paris? Or against Kiev because the sheer thought of what happened or is happening in east Ukraine is driving me to a rage? The only thing i can do is trying to open peoples eyes, which is surprisingly hard in the world of mass media controlled news.
I also didn´t vote for the people runing the country i live in, i never voted for this parties, and i certainly don´t feel responsible for their decisions. Unfortunally you made a good point, people are sheeple more often than not. But you know, in democracy, voting fraud is nothing new.
Anyway, i think you missed his point. The point was that the people today shouldn´t be hold responsible for deeds of the past they had no chance to even influence in the first place. This is like blaming a german kid today for WW2 crimes his grandfather might have commited. It´s stupid and illogical. And while i would like to blame all people today for voting these “leaders”, it´s not that easy to show and proof to people that they have been lied to for most of their life. That´s a moment that makes you question everything, been there, done that.
If it would be that easy we wouldn´t need indepentend media or blogs like this to even know whats going on in Ukraine or Syria, because 99% of whats reported in MM is bullshit propaganda.
Cirdanx wrote :
“Anyway, i think you missed his point. The point was that the people today shouldn´t be hold responsible for deeds of the past they had no chance to even influence in the first place”.
No, I got his point. But the “past” is never ending though is it ? There is a generational progression going on here as the acts themselves are never ending. If people today shouldn’t be held responsible for past deeds of their “leaders” then by extension that means they shouldn’t also be held responsible for the current deeds of those leaders, and two generations from now (if mankind makes it that far) we will be saying that that generation shouldn’t be held responsible for what the present leaders are doing. Where do you draw the line ?
I have never believed the ‘sins of the fathers should be visited on the heads of their children’. I believe responsibility always lies with the individual.
So I eschew ‘collective guilt ‘, which is nothing more than a political tool to enable the transfer of wealth through ‘reparations’ and such between rival elite groups: this way the architects never pay for for their crimes, but the coerced and conscripted, those on all sides sinned against, pay interest on the loans they never took out in the first place.
I eschew inter-generational ‘guilt’ even more so.
I believe collective responsibility should instead deploy international law to bring the architects of war and conflict to trial and judgement: that will only happen when we stop blaming entire populations for the actions of transnational criminals, whatever ‘state’ immunities they claim.
This is becoming more and more clear in the age of the internet: almost all of the current wars and conflicts are a contrived racket, including the ‘protection’ aspect offered by the very same architects.
Stop blaming the brickies.
Elmar wrote :
“I believe collective responsibility should instead deploy international law to bring the architects of war and conflict to trial and judgement: that will only happen when we stop blaming entire populations for the actions of transnational criminals, whatever ‘state’ immunities they claim”.
I agree. The problem we are facing here is that no one in the west is willing to accept any responsibility for the actions of their “representatives”, past or present. Again I ask, if the individual European is not responsible for the actions of European “leaders” then who is ? You either live in a “democracy” or you don’t.
“voting fraud is nothing new”, thanks for mentioning that. In the us we have been subjected to such blatant criminal fraud as to be astounding, that’s how we got ll this trouble in the ME with g.w. et al. The voting machines were suddenly how it is done(for efficiency), made and run by diebolt, ceo of which is a convicted fraud criminal who openly told repugnant party “I will deliver ohio”, and an allied company sequoia, witnesses had fights in the parking lot with employees in florida after observing the monkeying with machines, bush family sec. of state at the time.Of course this info. is only known to alternative readers, as MSM is all controlled by 6 megacorp cryptonazi companies. So, we have a combination of average joe (a)abdicating responsibility (b) believing lies, gullible plus conformist(c)stupidly hailing a bs demagogue type, plus manipulation of the votes just in case. this is now thoroughly a police state and farce and everybody is still complacent. you can’t even interest a “straight” in learning about monsanto while the planet is being poisoned.
do you have voting machines in europe?
I do think an old fashioned moral person would be inclined to do something in atonement for say his father having been a s.o.b. to somebody. it still happens, in fact.the weakness comes with it being collective w/o leadership.
I haven’t had the opportunity to be widely traveled like a lot of you guys Anybody vaguely interested in “europe”, though, however ill informed, has always had perception of french,( to the barricades, artistic tastes, maybe hedonistic) italian(macho, volatile), german(stolid, exact), others as distinguished by national traits, also “eastern europe”. in regard to part of this elaborate discussion, I think that picture at the top of those lovely girls practicing some traditional festival, the hand embroidered dresses, garlands in their hair, honoring their families and traditions, says a million words. romania,where? juxtapose them to the me=me anything goes tramps in the “liberated” cities.
mercans had better snap out of it and fast and same for “europe”. it is probably going to involve some, er, unpleantness.
rant rant.
plainsman. sorry about typing, injured hand. peace everybody (Work for it)
also somebody more qualified please welcome ms. deKuyper, member of an amazing family, has modestly posted lately.
Being a Slav living in the US, I am often asked to identify my race, i.e. from “White, Black, Native American, Asian, Mixed, etc.” Not being Hwite, I always check Asian.
My ancestors obviously understood the difference: In medieval times, all people to the west were “Nemtsy” or “mutes”, whereas we were and continue to be Slavs, or “of the word”. I suppose “Nemtsy” stuck with the Germans because they are not truly one culture, but an amalgamation of many.
Perhaps the following distinctions would help clarify the historical and cultural aspects of Saker’s points:
The “West” or Western Europe historically coincides with Roman Christianity.
The “East” or Eastern Europe historically coincides with Byzantine Christianity.
These imply different mentalities and cultures.
Further, Western Christianity, after the Reformation, divided into Protestant (Lutheran and Calvinist) Christianity–coinciding with Germanic and Mediterranean cultures (the English traditional Anglican Church is a sort of half-way position, in a sense, between Catholicism and Protestantism).The northern European break with Catholicism indicates a real difference in mentalities and culture which was never fully resolved or integrated in Roman Christendom. The Great Schism, which divided Eastern and Western Christendom indicated an even more fundamental cultural difference.
Sorry, this sentence in the preceding post isn’t entirely clear:
Further, Western Christianity, after the Reformation, divided into Protestant (Lutheran and Calvinist) Christianity–coinciding with Germanic and Mediterranean cultures (the English traditional Anglican Church is a sort of half-way position, in a sense, between Catholicism and Protestantism).
It should read:
Further, Western Christianity, after the Reformation, divided into Protestant (Lutheran and Calvinist) Christianity and Catholic Christianity–coinciding respectively with the Germanic and Mediterranean cultures (the English traditional Anglican Church is a sort of half-way position, in a sense, between Catholicism and Protestantism).
So, historically, “European” could be said to roughly coincide historically with Roman and Byzantine Christendom. Whether of the East or of the West, their populations are–or were–Christians. This distinction, of course, does not take into account the very important Middle Eastern Christian churches, including the Ethiopians, all of which are very ancient.
James, I am sorry, your abbreviation of history is interesting but not correct, you are in error, and this error is crucial to the understanding of what TheSaker refuses to understand, namely, that Europe, all of it, is Europe, and not just what people with abbreviated history think it is.
In the beginning (not of the world, but of Christianity) there was neither Papacy nor Orthodoxy, but just Christianity, which Constantine the *Roman* emperor residing in Byzantium, had made (or had not made) the religion of the whole Roman state – which reached from Portugal to the Caucasus. Its capital was Rome, and only because disorder had set in at Rome-in-Italy did Constantine appoint New-Rome-on-the-Bosporus as his new capital at 300+. This city then regarded itself as “Rome” (The Empire) until it fell in 1453 AD. Part of the disorder (that lasts until today) were the machinations of “Christian clerics” on the Vatican mount, a former temple to Satan. E.g. the Vatican conspired with some germanic upstarts and usurped the right to grant them, too, the title of “Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire”, so that from 800 on there were two “Roman empires”, one of them being what is now Germany (a thing called “German Empire” came into existence only in 1871 and lasted until 1918). So, early Christianity was meant to be generically Christian, not Eastern/Orthodox as opposed to Western/”Roman” or rather Papist/Vaticani/Satanist. This splitting set in gradually and was first an opposition of the satan-infested papist church against the real, original church, and then continued to split up Europe into the parts where the Vatican managed to stay the master, and other parts that left in as far as they could. The Vatican is strongest in Italy, therefore Italy was *never* in any way protestant. The “Christian” mission from the the South East (New Rome/Byzantium) went North (Russia) and North West and made it up to Moravia, north of Hungary. Everything else was christianized by the Papacy – so that “The East” was not at all automatically “Byzantine”, but only Russia which is east of Western Europe but north of Byzantium. Therefore the Poles, the Bohemians, and the Germans became victims of papacy. The West of the West seems to have had a very different flavour, that of the Irish church, which was later fought and wiped out by the Vatican.
Now you say: “These imply different mentalities and cultures” (these religions shaped the nations differently) and I think it was the other way round: born slaves like the (“real”) germans (to which I belong, so I know what I am speaking of) had nothing against the rule of the italian satanists, and remained so forever until today: they live in what was West Germany after 1945. In the East of this mass of people without a sense of freedom, without inspiration, without social manners and interacting (“mute” idiots = nemtsy), there was the land of the West Slavs which Martin aus Sowjetisch Ost Berlin (Martin/aSOB) hates so much that he tells us of this hate again and again. Martin is so outspoken about his hate for them and delves so deep into the West Slav history (which the nemtsies would never give a damn for) that one can easily see that he is one of the people of the Word (thank you, The Kurgan), i.e. a Slav, and a Western one at that, thus, a Western Slav. I am one, too, obviously, and we all exist although Mark Eugenikos has declared us extinct: we have been taken our language and our identity, but we still exist – like original Americans. The Poles and the Bohemians, poor ignorant compatriot Martin/aSOB, are those which have managed to keep their noses in the air – this should be a reason to applaud them instead of joining the germs trying to push them under. You expressed your ill-placed hate for Poles even more blandly than Hitler ever did – are you happy of that company? Why don’t you see that yourself?
By the way, one definition of “Slavs” which is popular in Serbia is that they… oops… that we are “the Indians of Europe”, the “ljudi od zemlje” (people of the earth) who try to outlast the impertinent occupiers. While not forgetting to be themselves all the time… and that’s where you, James, may be quoted but, the right way around: different cultures and mentalities imply different religions.
Therefore it was in Ostelbien (East of the Elbe river: Wend-Land, Slavic Europe), in Bohemia, that Jan Hus preached ca 1380+ a version of Christianity that people would be free to adopt or refuse without being threatened with being burnt at the stake for a wrong choice. That’s why Hus had to be burnt at the stake in Constance (after having been granted “Freies Geleit”, the right to return unharmed) for not giving up on the right of free choice of faith, that’s why again in Ostelbien a certain Martin from Slavic inhabited East Germany launched what very quickly would be “The Reformation”, which was eagerly accepted in “the East”, and was rejected by the dumb slaves of Papism in south and east Germany. What about the Poles? They accepted Protestantism at once… until the Polish catholic chieftains met them and said “Look, we are all Poles… let’s make a deal: we grant you the freedoms you want, and you do us the favour of agreeing to continue to call it catholicism”. Since then, Poland is a multi-faith country, that did not burn live people like all the others, including protestants, did. In the beginning, the Solidarnosc operation worked along these lines, too.
This is just one episode of European history and just one aspect of it, the acceptance of tyranny or the rebellion against it, but it makes clear (like other aspects, e.g. the quick wandering of art tendencies through all corners of Europe, with Prague and Cracow being as important as Paris and Rome) that Europe does not end at the Elbe – and if it did, it would be the part east of it that would continue to matter.
By the way “the Reformation” did not “divide” the continent, but bloody wars against a terrible tyranny did that. The 30 years (1618-1648) war brought more devastation to Germany than WW II – but only to the protestant territories – strange, isn’t it?. In WW II the catholic regions were again spared, so, in a sense, it pays to be not a Slav but a slave.
The modern world originated with the Renaissance and crystallized definitively with the Enlightenment. Modernism stems above all from the scientific revolution as well as to the political ideas behind the French Revolution. These led to the extraordinary material-technological development of the West as well as to the modern nation states and secular ideas of governance.
The Western colonial expansion began in the Renaissance, but it didn’t acquire its assumption of cultural superiority—its “civilizationism” (the French “mission civilisatrice” and the English “white man’s burden”—until after the scientific and industrial revolutions. The assumption stems largely from the Enlightenment in the sense that for it, and for the French Revolutionary ideas, the past (and above all “medieval” Christendom) was identified with “darkness, backwardness, superstition, whereas now humanity was going to “progress” or “advance” according to “reason” and experimental science. And in fact, the material changes in the Western societies, after the first and second industrial revolutions were so completely novel and revolutionary that men were completely dazzled by them, and the technological advances they implied in the way of weaponry permitted the rapid conquest of populations which did not possess the technological superiority of the West. The material and technological superiority of the West was taken–and is still taken by a majority–to mean absolute superiority. Hence the “inferiority complex” of non-Western peoples. It is only fairly recently, after the experiences of two world wars and the current ecological and social disasters that seem to threaten humanity now, that some people have pointed out that this monstrous concentration on Mammon and of material development generally to the exclusion of the “one thing needful is the key to understanding the spiritual plight of modern man. Heretofore, normal humanity considered that “the one thing needful” took precedence over all other human aims and activity, and that it was the indispensable touchstone for evaluating an individual as well as a society.
Right. Except that it wasn’t exactly “the West”, it was Europe. It was Europeans spreading right around the world because they had guns and the native populations didn’t. The “West” of Europe spread overseas; but, just as much, the “East” of Europe spread over land, going even into the American continent. It didn’t stop until people with guns met other people with guns on the border between what is now Alaska and Canada.
That’s down to European technology.
But the ideas of technology can spread, and do. Now the rest of the world is getting the idea. That’s where the challenge is coming from.
This East versus West business isn’t where it’s at. The real upset is going to be Europe versus the rest of the world.
As Stanislav says in his blog (http://mat-rodina.blogspot.mx/)
These words are not my own, I do not have the honour of claiming them.
Thus, it is quite obvious that we, the Russian people are not, have never been, nor ever shall be, a part of the West.
Thank God – we are Russians!
We can well coexist with the West peacefully and profitably. We can even make friends with you, but please do neither lecture us, nor interfere with our affairs. Amen.
Hi Saker, well, I don’t think the Romans had much in common with the Greeks, who were Oriental.
And I agree that the Germanic tribes ‘took over’ the whole of Europe, but that was a good thing.
The Germanic tribes had some connection with the Celts…although the Vikings were killers of the Celts.
The Druids were a high religion and perhaps near the end had become decadent…
The Druids knew of the death of Christ on the day it happened…there is an ancient Irish tale of an Irish king, sitting with his Druid (priest) and the King says that he feels ‘all creation’ trembling today…
And the Druid says “Yes oh King, the Son of God hangs on a cross today”…
The Romans were barbarians and slaughtered throughout the whole of Europe and killed all the Irish Missionaries, who were there first…
Europe was Christianized by the Irish, not the Catholics, who have been ruining Christianity since the very beginning….the whole of Rome became Christian for political reasons.
And the Gnostics had it right, who said that Jesus was born from Joseph and Mary and was a normal person although more kind and good and wise….and at the Baptism by John, the Christ from on high, entered into Jesus and walked the Earth for three and one third years, and then Jesus died on the Cross…how could a Spirit die ?
But through this act of Jesus (the Lamb) Christ has given His entire future to humanity, because He did what no God had done before…walked the Earth and penetrated the physical (the skeleton)…and now, Christ is the Spirit of the Earth – the Lord of the Earth – and Earth is redeemed.
Ann
Your last sentences are beautiful,thanks
How can anybody *believe* such myths. Instead of reading Marx, Lenin and Stalin?
Could Stalin read actually?
Thank you Ann for the shaft of light on here.
Gees, i grow weary…
Not only could he read, he could also write. Maybe you could read some of his books, like “Economic problems of Socialism in USSR” or “Constitution”. You might be surprised, what’s inside.
After all, he had an education of a priest (another surprise?).
Martin
I accept Jesus because he is one of us,he was a true revolutionary man – he fought against the rule of this world,against the principalities who were(and are up till today) to destroy the flesh and soul.
He has showed us an example on how a man can serve the Truth till the last breath,without hurting anybody – just with his voice,telling the Truth.The essence of Truth which came out from his mouth is that :
– even if you speak in the language of angels,even if you are becoming rich and famous,even if you are a king and could decide over life and death,even if you have the best schools…but there is no Love in your Soul,you are nothing.Maybe you are lost,or nobody cares for you,maybe you are poor and suffering and nobody helps you…but you have that Love in you Soul,you are more precious than any Kingdoms on Earth.I do confess,yes,I’m not going to church regular,I have to fight with myself very often,with others also.I’m not trying to convince anybody about any religion,this time is over.All of us have to find the way for himself,which is not an easy task but it is the best way.Searching for the Truth is our duty,nobody will do that for us.I am also a sinner if you will,because I am just a human being left in the darkness of this world,like many others.Sadly,the illusion of this world is keeping us far from the real freedom and instead of being united we are letting us being pushed one against the other.If the individual is not strong enough,how can we expect changes together ? Jesus was a strong character,he has done his job,now is our part to do yet,our contribution has to be done.I do not except the wrong interpreted idea that Jesus died for our sins.(als pauschal – in advance?) Everybody has to take his Cross all along that hard road and at the end,to stay in front of Him (Jesus) and not to be ashamed.
ioan,
it is nice that you can believe in such things.
I envy you for it.
Don’t hate me for my doubts or call it disbelief, but what in the world proves to you, that Jesus really existed like they are saying, rather than being a made up / invented Robin Hood figure which btw can hardly be dated (plus minus a few jears)?
Religion Comes From Ancient Astrology and Sun Worship 1 of 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD9f0XU_S78
Religions are the deadliest thing humans have ever invented.
Look at world history. Everybody has of course the only “real” God, right.
All the others are “wrong”. And then there are religiously motivated wars. Remember how Christianization worked. Jesus would have turned in his grave. And how many forms / streams alone of Christianity do we meanwhile have? 1? 10? 100?
But that’s only my 5 Kopekes.
There is one thing that I _know_ (not only believe) : Communism is the only fair just system to organize a modern society which offers a fair equal life also to the lower 99.9%. To get rid of Oligarchs!
I know it, because I lived in such a country myself..
I hope nobody feels attacked by my thoughts.
I know, it probably feels much better and more convenient to believe.
ioan,
here specifically, have a look especially after the beginning of minute 5:00
Religion Comes From Ancient Astrology and Sun Worship 3 of 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovFFZ4iEFCo&ebc=ANyPxKrYCT8bov9dh7iW1HrrU8kjJdQqdqam6VkwP_kHLnK1cB-BiYmCXF4V504DaTJDLdADWW3G_qdLRZFWzUOGJUqioRkNeg
You say you follow Jesus because (allegedly) “he fought against the establishment”.
Now, reality is he was most likely invented by the very establishment you and I and we all hate so much, to trick us into something which lets them finally break and control us.
He was an invented virtual false flag saviour.
Invented to _enslave_ your mind.
Translated to now it would be like joining Marine Le Pen (the daughter).
Like joining Tsipras. Like joining so many of those “rebels” who – for some reason – stayed alive.
The sad reaility is: Most of them have been infiltrated and bought, that’s the only reason why they didn’t end like those who were indeed genuine and not for sale (like Jefferson, JFK, Ghandi etc.)
It may hurt you, but don’t blame the messenger.
No, my friend,it doesn’t hurt me.I am a fighter,all my life had to fight,mostly after the WALL
Eliz
What’s up with the Google doodle today?
Something positive about Russia? Huh?
This is a first right?
Dear Saker,
I read your previous article the other day,
I am your follower since 2014 and wasn’t really willing to comment,prefer to let others to do the talking,
Seeing that many couldn’t understand you,
I wanted to say as a Serbian guy in his mid 30’s
I Agree with you 2000 %
But Hey it is in our Slavic mentality to be bit stubborn and proud but also to have that inferiority complex! As my grandpa used to say to me when i was watching MTV as a kid: ” Dear child how come you want to use someone else’s fancy but dirty covered in shit*cutlery and plate when you have your own that is bit old and not as fancy as theirs,but it belongs to You!!”
We want what West is offering to us even it is manure.
I could go on like this for a while but i only get worked up :)
Sorry for any spelling or grammar mistakes
Perun
Speak for yourself my fellow Serbian. :-)
I feel quite opposite.
I never felt any inferiority complex, perhaps because I am older and I didn’t spend most of my life (like yourself) witnessing cruelty of aggression of westerners against my people and perhaps misinterpreting it as some sort of their domination!
Better _not_ to be part of “Europe”:
1,000s of Serbs march against NATO in Belgrade (VIDEO)
https://www.rt.com/news/337379-serbs-march-against-nato/
This discussion is now about who knows what. It has been sidetracked beyond redemption. The controversy was not about whether being European is a shame or an honor, or anything in between. That is for each European to decide.The controversy was about whether Eastern Europeans are Europeans. Well, of course they are! In every sense of the word, including culturally. What else could they be? The fact that Hungarians are different from Austrians, and Austrians different from Frenchmen is pretty irrelevant.
And the idea that, say, Seville and its natives are more “European” than Budapest or Prague and their respective natives can only be taken as a joke.
Also, the idea that you are not European (despite being born in the dead center of Europe, of Dutch and Russian parents, and despite fully raised and educated in Europe) just because, in your words, a “pigeon born in a barn does not become a horse” suggests in the first place a mindset very similar to the one exhibited by God’s chosen people. It also suggests that ancestral Russian-ness, in combination with an iron will to prevent assimilation, functions as an effective armor that protects against the absorption of European-ness or any other culture. I suppose a Frenchman could, through a similar exercise, proclaim himself non-European on account of the fact that he has watchfully remained in spiritual attunement with the ways of his ancestral Gaulness, for example by reading Asterix; a Spaniard might do the same with respect to his ancestral Iberian-ness or Celt-ness, and so on. The whole thing strikes me as rich nonsense. Europeans are, and have always been, primarily people who are born and raised in Europe.
Spot on. By the same token, I could claim l’m not European but rather some true blood protogermanic repaganized Siegfried. From Lisbon to Moscow, from Helsinki to Athens – all is Europe and European culture and people. Common denominator is Christianity, obviously. I’m technically pagan, but still culturally Christian, as is every European, even though he might pretend to be atheist or hate Krishna or what not. There is the odd non-Christian place like Sarajevo, but that’s just a small exception.
Well met Siegfried!
Saker is basically right in the sense that, for at least the last few hundred years, European norms were Franco-German-North Italian norms and everyone else in Europe was, from that perspective, seen as less European insofar as they differed from those norms. People in southern and eastern Europe have traditionally shifted between having an inferiority complex vis-a-vis that “Carolingnian” core or asserting that they constitute their own norms (i.e. the Sarmatian movement among Polish nobles).
Britain is in its own category on account of its particular religious development.
When the Romans colonized a territory, they generally imposed their way of doing things on the natives, with some practical minor adaptations. In general they managed to imposed their system of laws and their language.
When the Gothic tribes poured across the territories controlled by Rome, they generally *adopted* the principal elements of culture that Rome had established (i.e.Law and language) with some adaptations to their own ways.
When the Arabs poured across territories where these Gothic tribes had settled, (the case of the Iberian Peninsula being the best known) they did not adopt the language and laws that were in place, but neither did the natives allow themselves to be easily assimilated. The cores of the two systems seemed to be by and large incompatible, unmixable, permanently generating mutual repulsion or at least lack of acceptance. The result was that at any given time, a given area would be governed by one or the other system.
@EVERYBODY
Since this was a rather controversial but important (at least to me) post, I tried to reply to as many comments as possible, the good ones and the nasty ones. But now I need to sign off as I have to much work to continue on that intense level of participation. Thanks for your kind words and, well, no big deal for the not so kind ones :-)
Cheers and hugs,
The Saker
PS: you might have noticed that once in a while I like to “rattle the cages of political correctness”. Be warned – I will do that again in the future…
you might have noticed that once in a while I like to “rattle the cages of political correctness”. Be warned – I will do that again in the future…
Then if you’re fair, you should be able to accept the appropriate payback.
I’d say the British rank as Europeans …
http://fbreporter.org/2015/07/31/the-bengal-famine-how-the-british-engineered-the-worst-genocide-in-human-history-for-profit/
OMG, people are so f…ing stupid and touchy.
By the way, where are Mogherinis tears for the victims of the Lahore park suicide bombing ?
She must have left those tears in the same spot (called “wishful thinking”) where she left the tears for the murders in Donbass .
It’s perfectly OK, as far as I’m concerned.
I don’t know whether my country, Slovenia, falls under your “real Europe” category, and I don’t particularly care either. I’d say it’s still some kind of a Balkan country. And the only thing the Balkans ever got from the famed real/old/etc Europe was shit: Imperial meddling, world wars, and the blame. So, if “real Europe” goes down in flames, I couldn’t care less. It never was my home, and it will never be.
The funny thing is, though- if this migrant scenario plays out as you’ve described, if the real Europe really dies, “Austria-Hungary” (© Andrew Korybko) countries will be its closest remaining approximation. Migrants hate these countries, their citizens hate migrants, and no amount of PC propaganda is going to change this for the foreseeable future.
Andrew Korybko (/immigrant-crisis-2-0-whats-next-for-the-balkans/) doubts whether the Macedonian border will hold. I say it will hold, no doubt about it. The Balkan migrant corridor will remain shut. There will be the usual smuggled trickle, of course, but tsunami- no way. Macedonian policemen are pretty nasty, and used to dealing with “yankee jihadiststs” from Kosovo in a harsh manner. Plus, there are also policemen from the rest of the Austro-Hungary. According to Times, Czech are the most aggressive (http://time.com/4261105/refugees-escape-greece-macedonia/):
I have no way of knowing exactly what happened to the migrants after that. About 70 of the journalists and charity workers who had been following the march, including myself, were crammed into vans and driven to a police station in Gevgelija, a bleak border town in Macedonia that was swarming with military trucks and armored vehicles sent to stop the influx of migrants. But it wasn’t just Macedonians. Uniformed police officers from several other countries along the Balkan route that have restricted entry for refugees — among them Czechs, Slovenians, Croatians and Austrians — paced around the police station as well, dressed in padded riot gear. The Czech officers seemed by far the most aggressive, repeatedly shoving and hitting the reporters and volunteers. “You’re a criminal. Go away!” one shouted when I asked why Czech officers were working in Macedonia.
Czech attitude towards migrants is understandable. Czech cops don’t need to worry about the negative PR caused by harsh treatment of migrants. For their politicians, that’s actually a good PR.
I am not writing on secure enough sending options, answering your message to Netherlands plus a post script added after it to the same message from you, where I go on and on in ways that would interest indeed. Please check if you are able, or will rewrite it in your blog. Thanks, muchly.
The issue of wanting to be European, and some “inferiority complexes”, and so on, stems from the mysterious remarkable phenomenon that beginning in the 1700’s and on through the 1800’s and thereafter, there arose in Western Europe, in countries like Britain, France, Germany, Italy, and the USA [being in the English cutltural sphere],—a movement of discoveries and applications in the special language of higher mathematics,—calculus, algebra, etc., sophisticated numbers and measures, by which the Europeans were able to design and build better machines [including weapons] than anyone else on the planet. For centuries before, white Europeans were not partcularly more advanced in than aspect compared to other peoples and races.—Some fundamentals like even the alphabet, the numerals used for the mathematics, the concept of “zero” were actually invented and/or pioneered in non-white or non-European cultures [think of Phoenicians inventing our alpahbet, Arabs inventing our numeral symbols, Mayans and Arabs inventing the zero, etc.] But starting in the 1700’s the European whites took this substrate and built on it to fantastic extent,—“ran away with the ball” so to speak.—At some point some of the white European brains got scrambled, and they starting thinking and believing that the reason for their phenomenal advances in mathematical language and in building and designing the best machines was genetic,—racial. So thus came about the frenzy over “white supremacy” and a belief that intermarriage with non-whites would cause loss of the abilities to build and design the best machines and pursue high technology, theoretical physics, etc.—The phenomenon among European whites seems to have been a product of the culture, because contributors were not only white Western Europeans but also European Hebrews/Jews and such Slavonic Eastern Europeans as Nikola Tesla, and his entourage, who probably did more singlehandedly to create modern technology than any other person. But they all lived and thrived in the Western European or American cultural environment.—Thus, “European” has come to be synonymous with “advanced, technologically the best, etc.” Even if one did not care much for Western European “culture” including the classical Greek homoerotic and pedophiliac culture [source of the creepy concept of “Nordic beauty” pursued by many white supremacists who look to exotic blue-green eyes and golden hair or red hair as some special hallmark of whiteness].—Does ability to design and build the best machines make one “superior” to others in all respects? Probably not. But it gives the power to conquer and dominate to unprecedented extents, which is why “white racism” is given such attention. A thousand years ago, in the 1000’s, non-white people would just laugh at any white European claiming to be “superior”. But not today.
Jared Diamond proposed something vaguely similar in Guns, Germs, and Steel.
Katherine
Not all Eastern Europeans are offended.
Europe was backstabbing Slavic, orthodox people to this very date!
I’m Serbian and i am dreaming about Византија, not Europe!
We call Europe “old whore Europe”!
I’m Serbian and i am dreaming about Византија, not Europe!
And this is why I love Serbs so much!!
Cheers,
The Saker
Well I’d like to recommend two lovely books by Patrick Leighh Fermor about his travels from uk along the Danube, etc etc.Fascinating look at old Europe in the 1930’s………forever gone.I have enjoyed my small amount of travelling in Europe. What to say……what was tribal or lethnically localised is now internationalised, spread out from their original communities…..the networks, webs, of family networks anything from extended families or refugees in those times to localised smuggling crime rings, families . has become so easily pervasive and corruptible to european countries, travelling far and wide, becoming embeded in european countries but still being “clans”….. ….this is mrirored by the political systems and politicians…..becoming their own insidious brotherhood-sisterhood. My own naive perspective perhaps.
Fermor’s A time of Gifts is marvelous.
I preferred it to his later book—can’t recall the title now.
But both deserve a read. If you are pressed for time, read A Time of Gifts first.
It may no longer be possible for a man or woman to just put on a pair of boots and start walking . . . But it is notable to think that his walk across Europe ended in Istanbul. That was his goal. That I guess indicates Fermor’s image of Europe.
He died relatively recently.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Leigh_Fermor
Katherine
I wrote to a tv presenter Julia Bradbury who does walking programmes with the idea that his walks could be recreated-to compare now with then maybe with different people for different stages, and contrast that going eastwardswith the refugees who are desparately walking for survival through the Balkansgoing westwards when “western” politicxals have causec so uch trouble to eastern europe, middle east etc….thought it might be interesting, as ” Europe” maybe never be the same some people believe, fear, including German politicians, and the rise of far right political parties cf rise of brownshirts that Fermor was beginning to write about or mentioned…..sadly no reply….
…anyone know a film maker?????
Maybe Emir Kusturica might be interested considering the film that records travels of “gypsies ” some trying to hold onto their old traditions in a world where they face all kinds of opinions……Film Latchmo Drom by Tony Gatliff………and of course the historical and contemporary controversies around these issues…..similar truths and or paradoxes re similar ethnic contoversies even amongst these groups themselves eg Askali v Roma? Hmmm……world is so very very complex.
Jews hate Russians. Everything follows from that.
What we call Europe is not one entity. Saker is on to something. When Western Europe went one way in history, the UK, Scandinavia and Russia did not follow obediently.
Take a look at the British. How European are they? Do they consider themselves as Europeans? In my experience they are British, act differently and think differently. The UK is a member of the EU to get some control of it, that is all. A strong continental power has never been in the interest of the UK. It took a century before a British philosopher made the thoughts of German philosophers available to Englishspeakers. In the UK the Lord is a Teacher and on the continent He is a King.
The Scandinavian peninsula was also divided from the continent by water. The North, as I prefer to call it in order to include Finland, was able to preserves an old way of life and another mentality into the 20th century. There are still remnants of it especially in Finland and Northern Sweden. We started most of our universities from scratch in the 1600s. That gave us another path and it is still visible to some extent. When you don’t know what is impossible you can sometimes do the impossible (also true for Russia and much more so). Northerners, with the exception of the Danes, are rather ignorant of so called European culture. In Scandinavia the Lord is the Saviour.
Russia was always on its own path after the Nordic ties were cut long ago. The mentality is completely different and so is the history. I see some similarities with the old Nordic ways in culture, but not with German or French culture, for example. Women have flowers in their hair at summer feasts and the goat has a place at Christmas. The soup. Old men in the North often had high winter hats when I was young. Small, but interesting examples. I see the destruction of the Communist times, but also that under the thin layer of official doctrine many old ways were better preserved in Russia than in socalled Europe. In Russia the Lord is the Holy Spirit.
With all this in mind, why should Eastern Europe be labeled as European? History, language and religion make a big difference. Each should be proud of his/her own culture. The idea of one Europe is political and only suits the elite. The idea of a giant on clay feet. Saker is absolutely right about the northern and southern parts of the continent and I see a little more.
I spent a couple of years in France, got to know Germany and Switzerland and I have ties to Russia. I grow up with English literature and much of my education was in English. I don’t know who or what I am anymore. However, I am able to see both similarities and differences. I haven’t even started on what language does to our thinking. I don’t speak any foreign language perfectly, never will, but I know the logic of the language is a powerful factor.
Also, re: Nordic/Russian comparisons, I wonder about: a) the collectivist mentality for work/play b) attitudes towards alcohol and a down to earth take on enjoying oneself (this follows from the first, an ancient Midsommar festival is hard to imagine in most of Germany) c) a lot of Scandinavians have a simple dacha-like second house/cabin out in the archipelago or woods somewhere if they can afford it. The Romans never made it to Scandinavia, which may have a lot to do with these differences.
Mussorgsky, Borodin and Glinka were working in the tradition of European, mostly Italian opera. Pushkin and Lermontov owe very much to numerous western writers, to include Scott, Byron and Dumas. Repin, Shishkin, and Aivazovsky worked within a western tradition of painting. Like eastern Europeans they borrowed, developed and at times improved on various aspects of western culture. Russian culture will always be part of western culture, as is Polish, Czech and Latvian culture.
It is hard to find a nation on the planet which has not been influenced by western culture. Moreover, now the west is being influenced by these same countries, just as it has by Russian culture. If you want an exclusively Russian or Eurasian culture, you are several centuries too late.
Excellent reply. Russian learned culture did not build upon culture of “our Kazakh, Avar, Tatar or Buriat brothers”. It is absurd to require Russians to get rid of that Europe-like 19th century heritage.
Even more absurd is to somehow impute Russian Euroasian aspirations (however mistaken such aspiration obviously is) into Czech mind.
Seriously, Euroasian Czechs ?
Two small comments:
– the political correct way nowadays is to call Poland, Hungary, Czechia and Slovakia Central or Middle Europe. Eastern Europe is the former Soviet Union.
– What I miss in your story about Russia’s roots is the Finno-Ugric element. I remember reading opinions that see Russia primarily as a mix between the Slavic Kiev Rus and Finno-Ugric peoples who lived on the Russian territory before.
You are correct. There is a strong Finnish heritage in Western Russia. I have seen it from Archangelsk to Southern Karelia. It is genetic, but I see a little also in the mentality. Russian reseachers are aware of it.
The Vikings were both Scandinavians and Finns. They worked well together. They were in Kievan Rus and in Constantinople. They were “boat-people”, “venalainen” in Finnish. That is how Finns refer to Russians. Interesting, isn’t it?
The definition of Europe has changed several times. The border used to be in Ukraine (the borderland in Russian) and was changed to the Urals by a German explorer. I have heard politicians say Georgia and Turkey are part of Europe. How very convenient if you want to absorb those countries. What is PC changes over time. In this EU age it is PC to call Eastern Europe Central Europe. It may be true for Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Romania and Croatia. I am not so certain about other countries and I don’t make an issue about the concept. It is a label, that is all.
The Normans – from Normandy, France – were their descendants.
‘Norman’ was the francophone rendition of ‘Northmen.’
… and additionally, the nor-men (Norwegians) themselves call themselves normen (I am not sure about the correct spelling, though. Does that mean that Norway is a francophonic country?
The thing is that the process of cultural inspiration of Central-Eastern Europe by Western European culture has been going on for more than millenium. You Saker, are in to position to decide that we should deny or get rid of that part of our history.
By inspiration we do not mean that we are trying to become someone else. First of all, due to the centuries long period we interacted with Western Europe, we consider the Europe-like look of our culture to be completely legimitate part of our identity. Second, there are some universal human qualities present in the Wester-European culture, that make it legitimately part of cultural aspirations of all humanity -e specially when you’re West’s close neighbor for conturies. Thanks to this inspiration we had universities since 14th century, universal schooling since 18th century, pension systems since 19-th century,
We don’t want to cease being Slavs, and our rural culture is definitely non-(Western)-European. But as I mentioned elsewhere – to walk around Gothic cathedrals in our towns, see 700 years old castles and monasteries in our countryside, to know that on our territory Beethoven spend some part of his life – it is hard to convince ourselves we’re not Europeans.
I know in todays Russia it is cool to call oneself Euroasian. There is no way Western Slavs should be required to do the same, Asia is thousands of kilometers away from us, and since time immemorial we’ve been Western Christians, having western-like universities, Church, alphabet.
There is a perfectly serviceable demarcation of Europe, geographical, historical, cultural, whatever: the Eurasian subcontinent, from the Atlantic to the Urals and from the Arctic Circle to the Mediterranean. There is nothing useful that can’t be said while retaining the demarcation. As the current debate illustrates it is wholly counterproductive to apply prescriptive definitions to further ideological arguments
“Europe” is a purely geographical term. Same as “Asia”. It has nothing to do with culture.
Surely there is Western European culture and Eastern European culture. But to say people inhabiting eastern part of European continent are not entitled call themselves Europeans is as bizzare as saying Bengali are not entitled to call themselves Asians, because Bengali culture is so different from Chinese.
Besides that, argument that people inhabiting Eastern Europe are not Europeans is pretty dangerous one – it has been used some 75 years ago to support the “liberation” of European soil from barbaric Slavs inhabing it. It costed us several million of lives.
This is the best comment I read in the entire thread which compares to someone stirring a hornet’s nest. Europe is indeed a geographical area. For example during the dark ages of Western Europe, the Eastern Roman Empire, occupying significant parts of Eastern Europe was thriving, so I don’t think anyone should consider any specific nationality as superior. When the Western European countries formed the EU, they appeared to steal the European identity from the other non EU countries located within the EU, hence these other countries felt the need to state their European identity. Same is happening in the Americas, you have USA people calling themselves Americans, while the rest are either Latin Americans or Canadians. The Austrians did not fall for this, they properly call the USA people as US Americans.
“We Russians”?
Wife’s late father was from the American South. She was born in London. Brought up in Scotland. Lived in Paris. Doesn’t tend to sound off about We from Dixie or about the True Nature of Europe.
What are the qualifications?
My father is from the Outer Hebrides. Spoke Gaelic. I couldn’t tell you much about the culture of the Islands and whether its people feel closer in spirit to the Faroes or Fochabers.
Plenty of Americans have lectured me on the true meaning of “Rabbie” Burns (that would be Robert).
Examples multiply.
What are the qualifications?
People and nation prefer to join the richer/powerful group. It is natural tendency for human being – one of the reason human being survive. They join the powerful, if required, so that they can survive. So any country with border to Europe will try hard to show they are European (see Turkey for instance). Latin Americans/Mexicans feel pride to be an “American”, even if “Latin American”. So it is OK if East European think they are European. If some time in future (and it is totally possible), EU is bankrupt and Russian economy is booming, these same countries will start feeling proud of their Slavic origin and won’t think twice of Europe. It will OK that time as well.
I couldnt resist, since this is somehow vitale to the understanding of whom we europeans are.
In essense, its right now, an sentral european centric world and their perspetions we read, and “educate” our selfs with.
Yea, what could possibly go wrong.
Well, a lott.
Il make it short, but I hope Saker is a man of mercy and forgives.
Blessed anyway, cheers.
So, this map is quite right, but some minore hickups, the name Nor/ge/men isnt about whats to day, that name is a Finnish Prince name, the Youngest of 3, and He gott the southern parts of NorGe, read Whom foundid Norge an Saga the “norce” dont talk that mutch about, this incl the British Isles, to Scotland. and so on and do notise while you have it, the Calicia/Basque land.
The closes relatives to us in the european mainland is infact the Basque, and some minore others, as the Berbers of Alger.
Gone blank yett, hehe.
Just Google Map of europa Charles the Great, and see the Finnish tribes, the present Russians and Balts are all Finns.
OUR history is been hidden, both by Russians and Norwegians, and Finnish Gov.
Russia is getting better, the Finns have fallen for the PC drivel about Samic people, they arent infact even close to be regarded as Natives, since this area want inhabited at all, before the last centurys, so right now, the Gov. openly steals others history to create the fundation of the so called Samic, witch is One part of an greater pichture.
And then Me.
http://barentsobserver.com/en/society/2015/10/500-year-old-skolt-sami-document-joins-memory-world-13-10
This single document is so vitale is scary, and have been hidden for centurys,
One of the few remaining documents that confirms our existence, as a land and a people.
I realy dont care what Others, in that comunety says about Indiginousness and rights.
WE lost everything, and gott glass pearls as payment, not even alwed to move back, even as we speak 2016.
I am censured because of this, and that I know they lie about everything.
I can track my self further back than moust, centurys back, longer than requred to recongised, but I dont recognise THEM.
Period.
My people is right now dying, and Im not joking.
https://www.google.no/search?q=sami+blogspot&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjV-Mqcx_DLAhXKjiwKHdwOCfAQsAQIVQ&biw=1252&bih=602
There are images of things in there, ancient sea faring wessels, carved into stone, dated back to the stone age 4000-6000 years ago, and nobody talks about it, 10 000 years old houses, severall of them, and its quiet.
7000 year old modrn structured boats, made in wood.
Castles old as the earth, standing rocks an mass, labyrints all over the nordic lands.
I have just been Freed, and can calm my self down, since Im old and weary.
I hope justice and truth will one day come into the full daylight, and we as an people can start to recover, this is also my reason for the decades of Palestinian rights fight, I have done it, because I knew how the Criminal scammers works and how their minions twist history to suth their cause.
And by regarding Mongols, the slightly altered eyes, chines like is you will, dont have anything to do with been chines, with all respect, because there isnt more Mongol genes in Russians per see than Italians, or any people incl Finns.
This admix is a lie.
And so on.
Its been one hell of an jurney, havent it, Saker since the start, hopefully we all one day will meet, and gett drunk and generally missbehave, hehe, as gentlemen of course.
nastrovje
peace/mir
@mikael
“So, this map is quite right, but some minore
hickups, the name Nor/ge/men isnt about
whats to day, that name is a Finnish Prince
name, the Youngest of 3, and He gott the
southern parts of NorGe, read Whom
foundid Norge an Saga the “norce” dont talk
that mutch about, this incl the British Isles,
to Scotland. and so on and do notise while
you have it, the Calicia/Basque land.
The closes relatives to us in the european
mainland is infact the Basque, and some
minore others, as the Berbers of Alger.
Gone blank yett, hehe.”
Without going into specific individuals of later times, it seems the whole of Europe has ancient roots in the Russian steppe and the Middle East:
So, this map is quite right, but some minore
hickups, the name Nor/ge/men isnt about
whats to day, that name is a Finnish Prince
name, the Youngest of 3, and He gott the
southern parts of NorGe, read Whom
foundid Norge an Saga the “norce” dont talk
that mutch about, this incl the British Isles,
to Scotland. and so on and do notise while
you have it, the Calicia/Basque land.
The closes relatives to us in the european
mainland is infact the Basque, and some
minore others, as the Berbers of Alger.
Gone blank yett, hehe.”
Without going into specific individual claims in later eras, it seems the whole of Europe has roots in the Russian steppe and the Middle East:
https://www.rt.com/uk/327377-irish-dna-middle-east/
Maybe that’s why we common folk instinctively turn to Mother Russia when Father Middle East givesus grief? :)
I totally agree with The Saker. Countries of so called Eastern regions of the ‘European Continent’ (territory) have an inferiority complex for some reason or another. It’s as if just because they are closer to Asia (further east) that they need to identify as European just to not feel as if they are part of some other civilisation or culture.
My heritage is (mother and father) from Serbia. I am not interested not for a second whether Serbia is European or not. I am happy that Serbia has formed its own culture and it heavily identifies around its very faith of Orthodox Christianity. I feel closer to my Orthodox brothers in the Balkans and Russia (further east) than to any country further north or west of the former Yugoslavia.
Whats in a name? Europe a name for this territory of the world to distinguish it from other cultures and reigions that surround it. Its religion ‘was’ Christianity. But now it is predominantly atheist. Why would I want to associate my beautiful country of Serbia with a Europe that used to be Christian, to a Europe that distances itself from Christianity now.
Whether it encompasses Serbia or not, I simply don’t care…could not care less.
Do people of the vast Asian continent identify as Asian…NO!!!! All coutries are proud around their own cultural identies and faiths and identify themselves on the basis of their respective countries.
I don’t see Mexico wanting to be North American or Central American…they are Mexican…proud heirs of the Native American (Aztec civilisation). South Americans don’t identify themselves to someone as South American, as they are proud of tgeir respective countries.
This so called European Union is nothing but a farce, established for no other reason than to play into the hands of the overlords and elites who benefit from it as opposed to all the Eastern European wannabe Europeans. ‘Eastern europeans have some respect for yourselves’…you at least uphold Christian values more than this so called EU.
Pride in heritage is beautiful if not used against someone else. You speak well and true. But I don’t think there is an inferiority complex, more like a perceived subservience from being pushed around(of course with complicity of untrustworthy “leaders”).
Be well fellow.
[Sidebar: please consider this: do you know how the Slavs call Germans? “Nemtsy”. This word means “the one who does not speak (our language)”. I don’t believe for one second that this label of “the one who does not speak our language” was applied to the Germans only for linguistic reasons (if so, why would the Slavs have chosen this specific non-Slavic language over all the others?). It was primarily a recognition of a cultural chasm.]
Reminds me of this excerpt from Tacitus “De origine et situ Germanorum”: All Germania is divided from Gaul, Raetia, and Pannonia by the Rhine and Danube rivers; from the Sarmatians and the Dacians by shared fear and mountains.
“PS: just to drive you all bonkers – there are at least two “European” cultures. The northern, Germanic, one and the Mediterranean one. The former invaded and subjugated the latter even though the latter is much more ancient and does, really, have roots in the Roman and Greek civilizations. What is called the “European” culture today has its roots in the Frankish Empire which has no Roman roots at all and which subjugated and persecuted the ancient Mediterranean civilization of what is southern Europe today. In other words, modern “core Europe” is not only not a heir to Rome at all, it is its antithesis. I very dubious ‘honor’, imho. Just saying…”
And even then “Frankish” civilization was never stable. I have no doubt that if not for the time-span that separates them, Martin Luther and Charlemagne would have gotten along very well.
It appears that “Neolatins” are still in the same situation as their ancestors: choose the Greeks or the Franks(“Europeans”)
Darling, Dear
to go into bonkers overdrive: the origin of christianity on the european continent devides into West Roman and East Roman empire. That, what you now call”core” European are those oft us whose culture stems from the papal rome. The other ones from orthodoxe Byzantian.
No need for Tatars there.
Good points.