One of the most worrying trends in the US society since 911 has been the grotesque bloating of the power of the various intelligence, police and security forces in the USA. Even the TSA goons at the airport randomly yell at people not immediately obeying them.
The ‘trademark’ of the new post 911 US is that those in authority now want to be obeyed immediately and if the citizen does not comply immediately they use tasers on them not to subdue them, or protect anyone, but to make them comply.
Tasers have now become the cattle prods use to make Americans comply immediately and fully to whatever any uniformed person tells them to do. Should they even object or question the order, they are immediately subjected to what is little more than electric torture not unlike the ‘picana electrica‘ beloved by South American dictators and their thugs.
A portable torture instrument for any uniformed goon. What a truly wonderful idea, isn’t it?!
Most people probably remember the student tasered for asking Senator Kerry the ‘wrong’ questions and they might even have heard that the enforcers who tasered him were fully vindicated by the subsequent enquiry.
Here is yet another example of how any moron with a badge can now treat a arguing citizen:
All this is extremely important telling because Americans who used not to fear their cops (unless they were Black or Latino, of course) are now literally conditioned, trained, to become highly obedient, compliant and fearful.
As in any police state the citizenry is becoming used to fear its authorities and worship their power. And that is definitely a sign of the Fascism which is taken over the daily life of all Americans.
On the one hand, I think you’re right that police are now free to get away with treating people more harshly than they would have been 20 years ago–at least not in public and on tape. As Hunter Thompson wrote several years ago, “Hell, there is nothing really new about American enforcers–especially cops–killing and brutalizing innocent American citizens. It happens with depressing regularity. But at least the bastards used to have the decency to deny it.” On the other hand, I have a hard time feeling sympathy for the fact that middle-class, white assholes are now subject to the same sorts of degradations to which the rest of us have always been subject. That said, however, I hope incidents like this one will demonstrate to the middle-class that “their” government no longer belongs to them.
On the other hand, I have a hard time feeling sympathy for the fact that middle-class, white assholes are now subject to the same sorts of degradations to which the rest of us have always been subject. That said, however, I hope incidents like this one will demonstrate to the middle-class that “their” government no longer belongs to them.
Amen to that, my friend, amen!
I trust police officers as public servants as do the large majority of people I know.
The civilian in the clip was very rude to the police officer.
The police officer overreacted. And his career has probably been ruined.
But over 99% of Americans have far better manners than that rude civilian. And the vast majority of police officers wouldn’t have overreacted the way this cop clearly did.
This clip tells you nothing about America.
Oldfolio: “On the other hand, I have a hard time feeling sympathy for the fact that middle-class, white assholes are now subject to the same sorts of degradations to which the rest of us have always been subject.”
Oldfolio, what you wrote is anti-Caucasian racism and bigotry. America has problems in pockets, such as inner city neighborhoods, but that in no way justifies you writing what you did. And the vast majority of American blacks and latinos (including and perhaps especially those who have suffered from racism) would be as offended by you as I am. Those who suffer from racism are generally more sensitive to and less tolerant of racism towards others.
Are you even an American? If you are, and if you live in this great country, then remember that his country has given you opportunity, and fed you its salt. And this is your gratitude?
But over 99% of Americans have far better manners than that rude civilian. And the vast majority of police officers wouldn’t have overreacted the way this cop did.
This clip tells you nothing about America.
“On the other hand, I have a hard time feeling sympathy for the fact that middle-class, white assholes are now subject to the same sorts of degradations to which the rest of us have always been subject.”
Vineyard, you live in this great country. This country has given you opportunity, and fed you its salt. And this is your gratitude?
@anand: you have no business asking anyone about his/her nationality nor do you have any business telling anyone to be grateful or anything else.
I suggest that you owe Oldfolio an apology.
Also, you are welcome to post any nonsense about “this great country” and if anyone has the patience and inclination to try to reason with you they can do so.
Most other blog authors would have begun deleting the nonsense you are posting a long time ago. It just happens that I do not believe in censorship, at least when applied to *ideas*. But I do expect you to show some basic manners and stop preaching. Unless you stop behaving like you have I will have to start deleting your posts, something which I really do not want to do.
Try something new: post on topic, maybe with an original idea. Or ask a short and open question. That will get you many more friends around here.
oldfolio, sorry for asking you about your nationality. I assumed you might be an American. But I shouldn’t have asked you.
oldfolio, I do not apologize for criticizing your statement. I would feel offended if someone said that about “Asians.” And it sounds no better to me when that kind of language is used with respect to any other ethnic group.
Maybe you expressed yourself poorly and didn’t mean what you wrote. If so, then I criticize your choice of words.
We all know that racists and bigots exist in every country, including America. I dare say most of us have come across many of bigots. That is all the more reason why we all need to have a 0 tolerance policy towards ethnic based prejudice.
One trend that we are increasingly seeing is that large parts of America’s male population are fearful that minorities are outperforming them academically and financially. That is why minorities in Americans have to be very sensitive to fears that America’s successful, wealthy, powerful and influential are increasingly minorities. Minorities have to be especially humble and magnanimous the more successful and influential they become. This kind of language is the last thing America’s minorities want and need.
Vineyard, have you noticed more concern about Chinese economic and career success on the part of some Americans? That America’s top academic graduates in many fields, and America’s top scientists and business executives are Chinese. I have. It is compounded by daily news stories like yesterday’s story that a minority has become CEO of America’s second largest financial institution Citigroup.
Oldfolio’s rhetoric fuels that kind of fear. And that fear will be used by people such as Amy Goodman, Lou Dobbs, Gravel, Ann Coulter (maybe even O’Reilly) and others to subtly push forward a fear of foreigners.
Don’t you think that subliminally when people criticize Halliburton, they are really tapping into a fear of China, globalization and foreigners. The increased animosity towards a Dubai (Arab) based company with primarily foreign owners, customers, suppliers, employees, and stakeholders really worries me. It is a subtle “coded” attack against minorities that is understood by those aware of the “code.”
One theme that I have been noticing at conferences recently is the increased fear on the part of business people around the world that America is going “nativist” and less friendly toward foreign companies, investment, collaboration, outsourcing and business people. There is a sense that America is veering left, socialist, anti-capitalist, anti-business, and big inefficient ineffective government.
Oldfolio’s type of rhetoric is fuelling this movement inside America.
Oldfolio, let me explicitly explain how I interpreted what you were saying:
“On the other hand, I have a hard time feeling sympathy for the fact that middle-class, white assholes are now subject to the same sorts of degradations to which the rest of us have always been subject. That said, however, I hope incidents like this one will demonstrate to the middle-class that “their” government no longer belongs to them.”
I interpreted your comments to mean that you are implying that the American government no longer belonged “REAL” American middle class people. That you were subtly implying that America was increasingly owned, influenced and ruled by affluent and powerful minorities who aren’t “REAL” Americans. (affluent Latinos—many successful Mexican Americans who descend from Mexico’s more prosperous and conservative provinces fall into this category, successful uppity blacks, Jews, Japanese, Chinese, Indians, Cuban Americans, Koreans, rich and influential Arabs etc.) Was this what you meant? I have heard this type of subtle bigotry before. Do you understand why I am so sensitive about it?
Vineyard, how was I suppose to interpret what Oldfolio was saying? Don’t most people who speak with the language oldfolio used “really” fear (even if they don’t openly admit it) powerful, influential, successful, rich minorities taking over and controlling America?
I am trying very hard to understand Oldfolio’s point of view. Perhaps part of the problem is that I grew up in California. In California caucasians are a minority. Most of our most successful executives, entrepreneurs, and academic people are increasingly minorities {at least if you exclude Hollywood entertainers :-) }. In the rest of America this is less true. So people like oldfolio may not see the world as Californians do.
Vineyard and oldfolio, do you understand where I am coming from? Oldfolio, please be much more careful in how you express yourself in the future.
Vineyard and oldfolio, do you understand where I am coming from?
As a matter of fact, I do. You are an immigrant from India who, having received US citizenship, are trying as hard as you can to integrate the US an display your complete loyalty to it. In the process you are making two big mistakes:
1) you do not realize that loyalty and love for the American people does not at all entail loyalty to the power structure ruling here. In fact, I would argue that it is the opposite: REAL love for the American people and for everything good in this country entails an uncompromising opposition to the American ruling elites, corporate Fascist power structure and imperial policies they impose upon the American people (who, whatever their other sins and mistakes might be, DID vote to end the war in the last elections, only to be betrayed by the Democrats)
2) You are acting in a typically non-American way, like a wannabe American immigrant. Why do I say this? Because the vast majority of Americans are far more tolerant and understanding of criticism than immigrants are. Anand, during the Vietnam war Americans even DIED opposing their government’s policies. They burned flags, they fought street battles with cops (which they called ‘pigs’), they declared that they are ashamed of their country. And that, Anand is truly American in the best sense of the word. The Brits have a long tradition of “right or wrong – my country”. Americans don’t. Being from India you probably have been raised in a much more British way and you mistakenly assume that this is also the American one. It is not.
The real America, the one which used to be respected all over the world, is the one of freedom, not political correctness, the one of revolt, not the one of compliance, the one of dissent, not the one of subservient obedience.
As long as you will fail to realize that you will never be taken for what you most want to be: a ‘real American’ (whatever the heck that might be). Real Americans will take you for a cute immigrant who is trying hard to please the folks he is living with now. They might like it, but they will not respect it.
Throughout its short, but bloody and tragic history, the USA has given to the world many sharp minds, mind who did not for one second hesitate to criticize the USA for everything ugly it had. From Jefferson, to James Fenimore Cooper, to Malcolm X, Howard Zinn, to Noam Chomsky and Cindy Shehan (and, many, many others) – the best sons of this country told truth to power. Malcolm X even never accepted to be called “American”. Still, he was born in this country, and he was buried here.
Anand, you seem to be a good person, but you urgently need to do two things.
First you need to stop acting like what you imagine an American is and accept to be what you really are: an Indian immigrant, a person who came from a country with a 12’000 year old history and now lives in a country with less than 300. Take some pride in your own heritage, dammit, and act like the Indian which you were born to be.
Second, for your own sake, stop feeding at the government and corporate propaganda wells, and begin trying to understand the world for what it really is. You might want to begin by listening, carefully, to you fellow Indian and intellectual giant of truly planetary magnitude: Arundhati Roy. Yeah, I know, you were taught to think of her as a ‘communist’. Nevermind that crap, just listen to what she has to say. Get the video of her speeches on YouTube or Google video and really listen, listen with you heart and with you brain. Then listen to Chomsky’s speech “Distorted morality” (video available on YouTube or Google video). And if you think you ‘know Chomsky’ then listen again, and again, until the deep meaning of his words stirs that part of you which you have so deeply suppressed since you came to the USA: your conscience.
Have you seen the first Matrix movie? If not, you should. There is a scene in which Morpheus tells Neo: “remember, all I promise you is the truth”. Same thing here Anand. You have to pick now. Its either your totally naive and subservient acceptance of the propaganda image of the USA or the truth about the real USA as seen by everybody who ‘took the red pill’, including millions of your courageous fellow Americans.
Its your choice now.
I have seen all the Matrix movies and am a real fan. In fact I thought that your use of Matrix metaphors was a spoof on the Matrix metaphors that I frequently use in speaking to others.
I think that we should speak up for the suffering, especially if they do not have others to speak up for them. These include hundreds of millions of poor Africans, hundreds of millions of poor people who do not live in Africa, black Darfur muslims, Congolese, ethnic Albanian and Bosnian muslims, Kurds, Shia/Suffi/assorted “lesser” muslims. These are the people that I identify with . . . that I would side with, even if I am called an anti-American bigot for doing so.
When I listen to Chomsky and Arundhati Roy as have many times, my conscience does stir for the billions of poor people that would suffer greatly if the harsh sanctions they strongly favor ever get implemented. They want to greatly restrict imports, investment, business and collaboration with poor countries. Can you even fathom how much poor people would suffer from their policies? They are as bad as Lou Dobbs, Ann Coulter and the rest of that protectionist, big government, anti-business, anti-capitalist, nativist crowd.
Ron Paul, however, is a true patriot who would impose sanctions on no one.
Datta has told me that you are well intentioned. So I take him at his world.
I am very reluctant to say this next part, because I can see that you quote Arundhati Roy on your left side bar and obviously admire her. So please understand that I am not criticizing you but writing the below for the education of your readers.
I would ask all of your readers to try to look at the world through foreign eyes rather than “America ethnic centric” eyes. Look at how Indians view my fellow Bengali Arundhati Roy. If you think she criticizes America, you have never heard her attack and vilify her fellow Indians. She spends far more time vilifying her native India than criticizing America, and she is deeply unpopular for it. To her, India’s emerging entrepreneurs and knowledge workers are forces of darkness. She harshly insults the Indian government, each of India’s provincial governments, the Indian military, and Indian institutions in the most vile way imaginable. Her frequent reference to the Indian government, Indian military, Indian judicial system, Indian police, and every Indian political party as “fascist” is the nicest thing she has to say about any of them.
Don’t you think I have a right to be offended by her outrageous comments about the country and the citizens of the country I and she—I might add–was borne in?
She is far more anti-Indian than all the commentators at this website put together are anti-American. Now I know that India and her institutions are not perfect and need to be improved. (Just like America and her institutions are not perfect and need to be improved.) But shouldn’t she express her opinions and suggestions more respectfully, and honor the goodness of her fellow Indians, Indian voters, and the potential of Indian institutions.
But I have to give Arundhati Roy credit. She has seen the Jihadi Takfiri up close and freely admits that she would be the first person strung up if the Takfiri ever wins. In this, she is better than the majority of people who share her ideology.
Vineyard, I am not obsessed with America. I try to see the world from the perspective of others. And I am very critical when my fellow Americans mess up like they often do. I was terribly disappointed in the ports deal, and CNOOC being prevented from buying Unocal, the rising tide of protectionism and illegal immigrant bashing, and the terrible condition of America’s K-12 education system. I praised “Sicko” on your own website. I find these sorts of misdeeds to be far more troubling and dangerous than the misdeeds that you refer to.
The people I admire are the late Sergio De Mello, French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner, French President Sarkozy, President Hu, PM Manmohan Singh, Senator McCain, Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew, Sir Donald Tsang Yam-Kuen, Chris Patten, former PM Junichiro Koizumi, Iraqi parliamentarian Alusi, Ayatollah Sistani, President Talabani, Steve Jobs, Dr Shi Zhengrong (http://suntech.wm.net.au/Default.aspx?tabid=266), former President Mandella, and the Dalai Lama. And I don’t apologize for supporting any of them.
Anand, to say that Roy and Chomsky are working against the interests of the poor is almost psychotic. As Vandana Shiva and P. Sainath (and Joseph Stiglitz for that matter)have amply proven, India’s poor masses have not been saved by globalization at all. The epidemic of farmer suicides should underline that fact for you. If you think big multinationals care about India’s poor more than Arundhati and Vandana and P. Sainath then you really need help. : )
Datta, Stiglitz strongly supports India’s free market policies. He believes it has led to a major reduction in poverty in India.
The way I see it, 95% of Indians use to live in poverty; now 75% do. That is very tragic and sad and demonstrates how far India has yet to go. As these and other facts “have amply proven, India’s poor masses have not been saved by globalization at all.” India needs to aim for 0 extreme poverty.
You are right that I really need help :-)
Arundhati and Vandana and P. Sainath had their way between 1947 and the 1980s. It led to 95% shared poverty and shared suffering.
“The epidemic of farmer suicides should underline that” many of India’s farmers are enduring terrible suffering now, as they continually have in the past. They need jobs that can support them and their families far better than farming. Hundreds of millions of Indian farmers dream of leaving the farm for a better life . . . that is why I support globalization. I hope that it will help them leave the farms.
Datta, I don’t agree with these people. Even Vineyard, who you respect, said that he opposed sanctions in the case of Iraq. Even he recognizes that sanctions cause great suffering to the poor. The people you mention (excluding Stiglitz who generally supports free trade) support harsh sanctions against every developing country on earth.
Anand, you ask “…if you live in this great country, then remember that this country has given you opportunity, and fed you its salt. And this is your gratitude?” Allow me to steal my answer to you from American author Kurt Vonnegut, who in turn stole it from Kenneth Whistler. Vonnegut wrote:
“Congressman Nixon had asked me why, as the son of immigrants who had been treated so well by Americans, as a man who had been treated like a son and been sent to Harvard by an American capitalist, I had been so ungrateful to the American economic system.
“The answer I gave him was not original. Nothing about me has ever been original. I repeated what my one-time hero, Kenneth Whistler, had said in reply to the same general sort of question long, long ago. Whistler had been a witness at a trial of strikers accused of violence. The judge had become curious about him, had asked him why such a well-educated man from such a good family would so immerse himself in the working class.
“My stolen answer to Nixon was this: ‘Why? The Sermon on the Mount, sir.’”
You also wrote, “Oldfolio, what you wrote is anti-Caucasian racism and bigotry.” I’m not sure that it constitutes racism to point out that some of America’s traditionally privileged persons are losing their privileged status. That I feel little sympathy for their loss probably amounts to some form of blameworthy Schadenfreude, and on that charge I suppose I’ll have to plead guilty.
@Anand: you write: She is far more anti-Indian than all the commentators at this website put together are anti-American. Now I know that India and her institutions are not perfect and need to be improved. (Just like America and her institutions are not perfect and need to be improved.) But shouldn’t she express her opinions and suggestions more respectfully, and honor the goodness of her fellow Indians, Indian voters, and the potential of Indian institutions.
I challenge you to find a single anti-Indian quote from Arundhati Roy. Go ahead, find me a single one.
And in the meantime, let me leave you with a quote of hers:
“What does the term ‘Anti-American’ mean?
“Does it mean you’re anti-jazz? Or that you’re opposed to free speech? Does it mean that you don’t admire the hundreds of thousands of Americans who marched against nuclear weapons, or the millions of war protestors who forced their government to withdraw from Vietnam? … To call someone anti-American, indeed to be anti-American, or for that matter anti-Indian or anti-Timbuktuan is not just racist. It is a failure of the imagination, an inability to see the world in terms other than those the establishment has set out for you.
oldfolio, if you are a minority American, (which I don’t know if you are or are not), your statement sounds boastful. It is like saying “White people, we minorities are outperforming you academically, financially, in terms of our careers, and in every other way. In your face. We are taking over the corridors of power and influence in this country. Our minority financed lobbyists increasingly control all American politicians. Live with it.” This is what I thought you were implying earlier . . . that the policeman was a white person left behind economically and socially. And he was taking it out on what he saw as the increasingly economically successful and influential emerging ruling class.
The civilian in your clip seemed to be a very successful minority American who was showing off his superiority (in education, class, culture, achievement) to a policeman he obviously considered less than his equal. The policeman was sick of his “I am superior to you” attitude and badly overreacted. As a result his career is ruined. But that does not change the fact that a successful minority person provoked and bated him by making the policeman feel inferior to himself.
That is how I interpreted that clip. Did you interpret it that way?
I think that minorities in America have indisputably become increasingly successful and influential. That is a good thing. Minorities have to express compassion, humility, and no sense of superiority to other Americans who are not as successful, prosperous or influential as they are. That to me is not only prudent, but moral. It is the right thing to do. Having airs like that civilian minority person did was clearly wrong.
Jesus was the personification of true humility and the absence of ego.
When a country warmly welcomes minorities as America does, and allows minorities and immigrants to become the most successful, prosperous, respected, influential, and powerful Americans; then we have a duty to be compassionate to the people who enabled our success, be magnanimous in our success, and not be very boastful about our own achievements (have you ever heard the Russian first generation immigrant founders of Google boast?). Boastfulness causes jealousy and resentment. And this is the last thing anyone needs.
If you are a white immigrant, you still shouldn’t write the way you did. Because some other Americans reading your posting might assume that you are a successful minority showing off your own success and the success of your own community. This can bread resentment against other successful Americans who are minorities.
Vineyard, I define anti-Americanism as someone who wishes harm upon America. Criticism of America by America’s friends and well wishers who seek America’s success are not anti-Americans. Datta, for example is definitely not anti-American.
I think that you too love America and are rooting for America to make it. So you are not anti-American either.
So by this definition, while Arundhati Roy sounds anti-Indian (I have lost count of the number of times she has called India a fascist country or worse), I don’t think she really is. I think rather she seeks a global communist utopia. She thinks everything else must be sacrificed for this global communist utopia.
This doesn’t change the fact that most Indians find her comments very offensive. The vast majority of Indians love and admire their armed forces. She continually accuses them of the worst crimes imaginable. She shouldn’t do that type of thing. When the Indian armed forces commit excesses, as a loyal Indian, she should push for the quick and successful prosecution of the Indian soldiers responsible for that crime so that the honor and good name of the Indian armed forces are not sullied.
I believe that the same should be done with respect to our brave and honorable GIs.
Arundhati’s course partisan rhetoric is a big part of the problem in the world today. We need uniters, not dividers (as President Bush puts it). Arundhati personifies divisiveness.
Arundhati Roy should try to be like this woman: http://irshadmanji.com/ Irshad is far more upbeat, optimistic and hopeful about the world than the dour pessimistic Roy.
Anand, you failed to provide even a SINGLE anti-Indian statement by Arundhati Roy. I am rather disappointed in your inability to substantiate your claims.
I can only reiterate her words to you hoping that this time you will actually think about them:
To call someone anti-American, indeed to be anti-American, or for that matter anti-Indian or anti-Timbuktuan is not just racist. It is a failure of the imagination, an inability to see the world in terms other than those the establishment has set out for you
I realize that this is a late addition to the thread, but, if you’re interested, an even more sinister example of American enforcers tasering innocent civilians was posted at Smirking Chimp. In this case, New Orleans public housing residents were excluded from a supposedly open City Council meeting debating the destruction of their homes.
oldfolio, it is never too late in any of my threads as I always get an email notification that somebody has added a post, ditto for those who subscribed to the conversation. as for the others, well, its their fault if they miss something.
Yeah, I saw the New Orleans tasering, it was shown on Democracy Now. Totally sickening IMNSHO…
I am sure we will see A LOT more of that stuff until finally some law is passed which either bans these tasers completely, which I am not sure is the best solution, or restricts their use to deal with dangerous people, and not as a portable torture instrument.
I think that torture and police abuse are much less common now than they use to be thanks to our modern cell phone cameras and litigious societies. (and not just in America . . . it is a global phenomenon.)
Police are scared to death of being sued or video taped these days.
I always trusted and felt safe around cops. I grew up in Orange County . . . and spent my later years at Berkeley and in the Bay Area. So maybe my experience is not representative.
I am sure that there are many problematic PDs in America. I, and the people I know, haven’t encountered them. Maybe that is why I tend to sympathize with the cop in most situations.
Actually, America and most of the world is becoming a much more plural, open, respectful of others, and better. I see much more good in the world. Charities and NGOs are much more important and active now than they were. I have been very impressed by grass roots activism to help Africa.
Race in general is becoming much less relevant around the world. We are all I think starting to better experience a common humanity.
This is one reason the nation state is starting to fade in importance. For example, are Microsoft or GE American companies? Do we as Americans really see ourselves as separate from the rest of the world as we once did?
Increasingly Americans now work for global companies, interacting closely with foreigners every day.
Inter-racial and inter-religious marriages and associations are surging in America and around the world. We as a world are becoming a better society.