Bosnian-Muslim witness confirms that the Markale Massacre was a false flag

by Grey Carter for There Must Be Justice

source: https://theremustbejustice.wordpress.com/2014/02/17/hague-tribunal-the-grenade-at-the-sarajevo-markale-market-in-1994-was-shelled-by-the-army-of-bosnia-and-herzegovina-by-order-of-alija-izetbegovic/

HAGUE – During his testimony in defense of Radovan Karadzic, former Bosnian Muslim policeman stated before the Hague Tribunal that the grenade that murdered 66 and left 140 persons injured at Markale market in Sarajevo, was actually fired by (Muslim) Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina , by order of then – leader Alija Izetbegovic.

Under the coded pseudonym KW -586 , the witness, hidden behind the adjusted voice , stated that he was member of the Bosnian Muslim special unit “Pearls “, (1992-1994) , when he was in charge of securing the Presidency in period when the Body held sessions at the National Bank building in Sarajevo .

The Witness KW -568 claimed that due to his duty he have had the opportunity to hear what the then – Bosnian Muslim President Alija Izetbegovic, together with his son Bakir and the head of the Islamic Community of Bosnia and Herzegovina Reis- ul- ulema Mustafa Ceric and other officials spoke at meetings . The witness accused Izetbegovic for planning terrorist attacks on Bosnian Muslim, in order to cause civilian casualties in Sarajevo, Markale as well as in Srebrenica in order to accuse Serbs and extort NATO intervention in favor of the Muslims.

” Izetbegovic was under extremely strong influence of local Muslim cleric with strong Turkish ties, Reis- ul- Ulema Ceric . Izetbegovic’s main goal was to gain the Western intervention in behalf of the Muslims by causing “mass suffering in Sarajevo and Srebrenica, provoking the Serbs to fire back and shell civilian targets , including hospitals:”

KW -586 testified that he heard Izetbegovic and religious leader Ceric to consider ” what would happen if a shell would hit the Markale market” .
“Only few days later , on February 5. 1994 , it really happened “, said the witness , arguing that the ABiH (Muslim army) fired a grenade at Markale from area of the village Mrkovići;
“It was done by orders of General ABiH (Bosnian Muslim army, NATO protege) Sefer Halilovic, and the Unit who accomplished the task was under the command of General Mustafa Hajrulahović called the Italian.”

According to the indictment against Karadzic , the first explosion of a mortar shell at Markale took place on 5 February 1994 , when 66 people were killed and more than 140 injured .

Alija Izetbegovic agreed with Bosnian Muslim gen. ( ABiH ) Sefer Halilovic that it should be done , and Sefer turned to ”the Italian” and said, ‘ The Italian will take care of that .” The first attempt wasn’t successful – a grenade fell close to the market; then, in order to try again , they waited for the familiar UNPROFOR crew (with whom we had a deal NOT TO COUNT OUR SHELLS) to come to nearby check point ” the witness explained.

In the spring 1994 , according to the statement of the same witness, Alija Izetbegovic and Reis- ul- Ulema Ceric met the commander of the 28th Division of the ABiH in Srebrenica, Naser Oric and ordered him to organize attacks on surrounding Serbian villages in order to ” provoke the Serbs ” to fight back, adding that “the victims are not important in the way of the Allah, the Almighty .”

The witness , in his own words , soon heard that Srebrenica was shelled , probably by Muslim forces . During the cross examination, the prosecutor Carolyn Edgerton called the witness’ statement ‘a multiple conspiracy theory’ , claiming that he made it all up in order to ingratiate himself with ” those who protect him now .”
” Nope , no, you can read whatever you want . It is as I said , I told the truth,” replied the witness .

Before the KW -568, there were various witnesses who came out with similar claims:

Markale I , 5. February 1994. – Ballistic experts and UNPOFOR officers still discussed the shelling issue, meanwhile CNN Christiana Amanpor and Hague Prosecutor accused Serbs for it. The above mentioned officers in the larger part of their testimonies denied as well as presented rational doubts concerning the Prosecutor’s (and Christiana Amanpur’s) claims that the shell came from Serbs; they were explaining that it was not possible to establish exact location the shell was fired from, thus whether it was done by Serbs or by the Muslims; the rest of their testimonies is, indeed, a gross accusation against Hague Prosecutor, CNN, Christiana Amanpour, as well as their inspirers.

‘ ( The Muslims) recorded their own crime’ – those willing to know knew it

British ballistic expert Dereck Olsen from UK Academy of Defense claimed , under the oath, that is was impossible to establish exact distance the deadly shell came from, and therefore, it’s impossible to accuse Serbs for firing it, and that’s it was obvious from the start, of course, under the condition that the goal was to discover the truth. John Russel, Canadian major, ( that time Second of the UN special envoy Sergio deMello), in-charge of military issues, had personally researched the crater; he clearly stated that it was impossible to determine who fired the shell. And according to that he handed the report over to the UNPROFOR HQ in Zagreb the day after the Markale tragedy . The report included his conclusion that both, the Serbian and the Muslim side could fire the deadly shell.

Sarajevo, Markale, August 1995; August 2013. that’s the scrypt the West applies to Syria.

Steven Jodry was a Canadian artillery expert who was in charge of studding the field reports in the HQ in Zagreb; Jodrey made a conclusion that it was not possible to provide the answer to the key question: Whose mortar fired the shell? General Michael Gutllier, commander of all the Canadian military forces stationed abroad, was a team leader of the UN investigation unit in February 1994; he said that even though the direction of the firing could have been established, that wasn’t the case with the distance, hence he made a conclusion that ’’both sides could fire the shell“.

Christiana’s manipulation and propaganda: Soon after those statements were announced, Christiana Amanpour and CNN managed to determine and ‘prove’ that the Serbs fired the shell. The above mentioned major Russel, as it comes to this, evocated that one day before an initial report, containing the concusion as above, (that it still remains uncertain who fired the shell) was made, CNN accused Serbs for firing, on February 5th. Major Russel labelled it as propaganda.

NATO and Wahhabi faithful servant, CNN Christiana Amanpour’s lies and her contribution to bombardment of both Serbia and Republika Srpska is immeasurable

Why was it so difficult to resolve the case and find out the responsible? Fortiori the colonel Jodrey mentioned before the court that the crater analysis wasn’t up to date but it was relatively simple method for locating the origin of a mortar firing.

Quite interesting was the explanation provided by gen. Michael Gutiller; the general unveiled that the ‘ crater was destroyed, dig out and excavated by French soldiers , who applied some ’’non -conventional“ ’’suspicious’ (’suspect’ as cited), methods of investigation; so that certain officer named captain Verdi who took the case over , additionally erred in figures and calculation, thus the results were useless. Therefore when gen. Gotllier and his men took the case over, it was already too late for any investigation.

Which doesn’t mean that there was no certain excessive conclusions,. There were certain conclusions in a way that they confirmed with a great certainty, that the deadly shell on Markale was NOT fired by the Serbs, but rather by Muslims alone. Ukrainian Colonel Sergei Moroz testified before the Hague tribunal that he was told by the Russian member of the UN investigation unit (Rumyancev) that the shell didn’t come from Serbian side, and that it’s more likely that the blasting device was brought and installed at the market than shelled.
Ok, so there are Russian, Ukrainian, this smells like some Serbian conspiracy. But let’s hear what Russel , a Canadian, has to say? He established that the penetrating angle of the shell , if it really had been fired from the mortar, had to be extremely steep (more precisely 90 degrees almost) in order to overshoot the surrounding high buildings; thus his conclusion is that the the shell must have been fired from the nearby surrounding buildings. And there were only Muslim foces positioned around. He noted in his personal diary written during his mission in Bosnia ( February 5th 1994 entry) that he beilevs it has been the Muslims alone who shoot their own people on the tragic day. He added that during the later weapon search among the Bosnian Muslim forces plenty of 120 mm handmade shells were found, even their welds were identical to the tail of the one that hit Markale.
Steven Joudrey as well stated in his conclusion that even if the shell was launched from the distance, must have been fired from the area of which 95% is controlled by the Musilm forces., and that ,,nothing disputes“ the possibility of firing from the nearby roofs, Joudrey further says , If we take into consideration relatevely small size of the marketplace as well as UN reports stating that this area hadn’t been under the intense fire the days and even hours before the blast, the posbility of having a single missile fired at the market and hiting it ….. ’almost doesn’t exist’. And that’s why there is a possibility of the manual firing from the surrounding building roofs.

That situation repeats in Markale on 28. August 1995. – The UN investigator Andrei Demurenko stated again that the posibility a single striking shell came from the Serbian positions is 1:10. 000. 000, but that there’s no evidence confirming even the smallest posibilty the Serbs fired it: neither on the scene nor in the radar recordings, so that the Investigators believe what actually happened was ’terrorist attack from the inside the city’ but , Demurenko explains, they were banned from any further investigation; An American Intelligence officer signed the report which ’opposes the laws of psysics’ claiming that the missile was fired by the Serbs, and the radars failed to detect it due to its low launcing position (?!) But the million dollar question (key question) remained unanswered : how the low launched shell manged to pass over the surrounding high buildings?
Demurenko as well said that even the UNPROFOR often had and immense impression that the Muslims in Sarajevo target their own citizens with snipers, but that was extremely difficult to prove due to the order of the Command, that those situations are BANNED from any further investigation
Are these statements only an exaggeration of the zealous Russian, who is likely to release the Serbs from guilt? But even the London’s The Independent on 22. August 1992. reported that ’the UN officials as well as Western high military officers believe that some of the worst recent murders , including the massacre of at least 16 person from the queue in front of the bakery, were carried out by Muslim defendants of the city – and not by the Serbs who besiege it – as propaganda (manipulation) trickerly suggests in order to gain World’s sympathy and, consequently, military intervention in their behalf’ .
As for the Vasa Miskin massacre, The Independent stated: ’Confidential reports to the UN commander, gen. Satish Nambiar, claim that it was the Bosnian forces loyal to Alija Izetbegovic who detonated the bomb in Vasa Miskin, and that has been a remotely controlled blast, probably placed in a can’, said the UN official.

Gray’s testimony: All would probably remain just a part of the journalist’s guessing and Russian zealousy, until the testimony of colonel Paul Gray, New Zealand army, filled the air: Muslims were shooting Serbs from their position behind the Kosevo hospital, in order to provoke their reply on the civilian targets hoping to be given worse than received, in order to provoke military intervention in their behalf:

– On July 13, 1992, the children placed in the post office building who were given candies by the Canadian soldiers, have been killed by the mortar fire. Grey believes that the shell came from the Muslim controlled teritory (this blast as we notice, WAS NOT listed neither in Karadzic nor Mladic’ indictment);
– targeting Bosnian Presidental residency everytime foreign representatives were visiting became a routine; On July 17, 1992. during visit of the British diplomacy chief Douglas Herd : as soon as Herd entered the building the shell that killed 10 passers by toppled down. He was personally present, so he heard the sound of firing. ’ – The distance was less than 200 m’, he later testified. ”The Bosnian Muslims were attacking their own civilians” he states , and made conclusion that ’the Bosnian side was purposely killing their own civilians in order to gain world’s sympathy and provoke the USA military intervention’.

This makes things clear-

Uncle Bob 1 on February 08, 2016 · at 10:23 pm EST/EDT

This is to Bodin on February 08, 2016 · at 1:14 pm UTC (there was no reply button on his post).

In your nationalist zeal to “massage” the truth you left out a few points. Using insults to cover your omissions of fact doesn’t work with me. I’ve dueled with zionist hasbara minions too many times to let a Serbian ultra-nationalist bother me. Here are highlights of points you left out:

“Shtokavian or Štokavian (/ʃtɒˈkɑːviən, -ˈkæ-/; Serbo-Croatian: štokavski / штокавски, pronounced [ʃtǒːkaʋskiː])[2] is the prestige dialect of the pluricentric Serbo-Croatian language, and the basis of its Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian, and Montenegrin standards.[3] It is a part of the South Slavic dialect continuum.[4][5] Its name comes from the form for the interrogatory pronoun for “what” in Western Shtokavian, što (it is šta in Eastern Shtokavian). This is in contrast to the Kajkavian and Chakavian dialects (kaj and ča also meaning “what”).”

“Shtokavian is spoken in Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, the major part of Croatia, and the southern part of Austria’s Burgenland. (BTW those people in Burgenland are Croats that have been there since the 1600’s .Long before the 1850 agreement.)The primary subdivisions of Shtokavian are based on two principles: one is whether the subdialect is Old-Shtokavian or Neo-Shtokavian, and different accents according to the way the old Slavic phoneme jat has changed. Modern dialectology generally recognises seven Shtokavian subdialects (Those subdialects include the ones you listed).”

“The Proto-Shtokavian idiom appeared in the 12th century. In the following century or two, Shtokavian was divided into two zones: western, which covered the major part of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Slavonia in Croatia, and eastern, dominant in easternmost Bosnia and Herzegovina and greater parts of Montenegro and Serbia. Western Shtokavian was principally characterized by a three-accent system, whereas eastern Shtokavian was marked by a two-accent system. According to research of historical linguistics, Old-Shtokavian was well established by the mid-15th century. In this period it was still mixed with Church Slavonic to varying degrees.”

“During the first half of the 19th century, protagonists of nascent Slavic philology were, as far as South Slavic dialects were concerned, embroiled in frequently bitter polemic about “ethnic affiliation” of native speakers of various dialects. This, from contemporary point of view, rather bizarre obsession was motivated primarily by political and national interests that prompted philologists-turned-ideologues to express their views on the subject. The most prominent contenders in the squabble, with conflicting agenda, were the Czech philologist Josef Dobrovský, the Slovak Pavel Šafárik, the Slovenes Jernej Kopitar and Franc Miklošič, the Serb Vuk Karadžić, the Croat of Slovak origin Bogoslav Šulek, and the Croatians Vatroslav Jagić and Ante Starčević.”

“The dispute was primarily concerned with who can, philologically, be labelled as “Slovene”, “Croat” and “Serb” with the aim of expanding one’s national territory and influence. Born in the climate of romanticism and national awakening, these polemical “battles” led to increased tensions between the aforementioned nations, especially because the Shtokavian dialect cannot be split along ethnic lines in an unequivocal manner.”

“Earliest texts of Shtokavian dialect
Proto-Shtokavian, or Church Slavic with ingredients of nascent Shtokavian, were recorded in legal documents like the charter of Ban Kulin, regulating the commerce between Bosnia and Dubrovnik in Croatia, dated 1189, and in liturgical texts like Gršković’s and Mihanović’s fragments, ca. 1150, in southern Bosnia or Herzegovina. Experts’ opinions are divided with regard to the extent these texts, especially the Kulin ban parchment, contain contemporary Shtokavian vernacular. Mainly Shtokavian, with ingredients of Church Slavic, are numerous legal and commercial documents from pre-Ottoman Bosnia, Hum, Serbia, Zeta, and southern Dalmatia, especially Dubrovnik. The first comprehensive vernacular Shtokavian text is the Vatican Croatian Prayer Book, written in Dubrovnik a decade or two before 1400. In the next two centuries Shtokavian vernacular texts had been written mainly in Dubrovnik, other Adriatic cities and islands influenced by Dubrovnik, as well as in Bosnia, by Bosnian Franciscans and Bosniak Muslim vernacular alhamiado literature – the first example being “Chirwat turkisi” or “Croatian song”, dated 1589.” (You will notice that these early documents in the dialect are mostly from “Croat” areas. Long before the Communists were even thought of.)

“Standard language
The standard Bosnian, Croatian, Montenegrin, and Serbian variants of the pluricentric Serbo-Croatian standard language are all based on Neo-Shtokavian dialect.[19][20][21]”

“However, it must be stressed that standard variants, irrespectively of their mutual differences, have been stylised in such manners that parts of the Neo-Shtokavian dialect have been retained—for instance, declension—but other features were purposely omitted or altered—for instance, the phoneme “h” was reinstated in the standard language.”

“The Croatian has had a long tradition of Shtokavian vernacular literacy and literature. It took almost four and half centuries for Shtokavian to prevail as the dialectal basis for Croatian standard. In other periods, Chakavian and Kajkavian dialects, as well as hybrid Chakavian–Kajkavian–Shtokavian interdialects “contended” for the Croatian national koine – but eventually lost, mainly due to historical and political reasons. By the 1650s it was fairly obvious that Shtokavian would become the dialectal basis for the Croatian standard, but this process was finally completed in the 1850s, when Neo-Shtokavian Ijekavian, based mainly on Ragusan (Dubrovnik), Dalmatian, Bosnian, and Slavonian literary heritage became the national standard language.”

“Serbian was much faster in standardisation. Although vernacular literature was present in the 18th century, it was Vuk Karadžić who, between 1818 and 1851, made a radical break with the past and established Serbian Neo-Shtokavian folklore idiom as the basis of standard Serbian (until then, educated Serbs had been using Serbian Slavic, Russian Slavic and hybrid Russian–Serbian language). Although he wrote in Serbian Ijekavian accent, the majority of Serbs have adopted Ekavian accent, which is dominant in Serbia. Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia, as well as Montenegrins, use the Ijekavian accent.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtokavian_dialect (notice the word “dialect”.)

Hopefully you can contain your ultra-nationalism here. It has far too many very striking uncomfortable similarities to bandera-Ukrainian nationalism for it to be acceptable.

103 Comments

Anonymous on February 05, 2016 · at 3:49 pm EST/EDT

The motto of the zpc/nwo empire: falseflags r us.

Excellent report. The barbarity of the war criminals running “the west” has no equal.
Outlaw Historian on February 05, 2016 · at 4:01 pm EST/EDT

Quite a story! Amanpour’s lies have brought many deaths. Time for her own to occur, along with her network’s.
Dennis James Leary on February 05, 2016 · at 4:12 pm EST/EDT

These pictures of politicians in high places and innocents in low places shine a light on lies and hypocrisy.

It’s our responsibility too to seek causes and find solutions for evil. Putting band-aids on symptoms will not do.
Anonymous on February 05, 2016 · at 4:35 pm EST/EDT

Justice will be served and it is coming to honor the absolutely innocent victims.

Biggest horror is that this parasitic and fascist family again is trying to get the highest chair at the US presidency and it is going to be a world disaster if she won.

Lets hope for the American’s decency and hope for the world change
+Mikie on February 05, 2016 · at 4:43 pm EST/EDT

Hmm… I don’t know.

When this actually happened, the reports I’ve seen mentioned two 120mm mortar rounds of a very special design hitting the market. What they said (and showed drawings and diagrams etc.) is that these were not ordinary mortar shells, but specifically designed to burst into a much higher number of smaller fragments than what a normal shell would. They also claimed that these had a (very expensive) radar proximity fuze which would detonate the shell BEFORE impact with the ground.

The airburst and large number of high-speed fragments “raining” down would explain such an unusually high number of victims and unusually high lethality of a single shell (or a pair of them). It would also mean that there would be NO CRATER of any kind from which to deduce the direction of fire with any meaningful confidence.

Other than that, everything else in this article seems true: normal mortar shells do leave a small crater from which the firing direction can be determined, but not the distance. And Alija Izetbegovic was a rabid Islamist extremist like you wouldn’t believe. I’ve also heard that Bosnian state in those days hired a famous American PR firm to improve its’ image in the west. Serbs of course, didn’t.

I don’t know. It was a terrible tragedy, bunch of people died for nothing. If the story is true, it’s an even worse tragedy to build a state on (lack of) principles like this…
Martin from S.E.B. on February 05, 2016 · at 5:06 pm EST/EDT

Many of the average Bosnians I spoke to may not know the details, but they know that the West brought Terror, death and destruction. They simply feel it.

The Bosnians are good helpful friendly and open-minded people.
Unlike Croatians they don’t hate Serbia, and they don’t hate Yugoslavia.
At many places in offices and workshops you still find comrade Tito’s picture high on the wall next to the clock and 2016 calendar.

There are hardly if any long-bearded muslim radicals there.
It is a tiny (isolated?) minority.

Was there just last week.
- Martin from S.E.B. on February 05, 2016 · at 7:49 pm EST/EDT
  
  A few short things I noticed last week:
  
  In Bosnia (all parts, including the Republika Srpska https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republika_Srpska )
  if you switch on the radio most stations bring traditional Bosnian music, hardly any English Pop music.
  In Serbia-proper the situation is different: 90% of stations bring western Pop Hits” trash, like in any other (western) country.
  After some tuning I finally found a wonderful Serbian woman’s crystal clear voice, so I stayed on that frequency. After a while they brough a info-edu series about Yugoslavia. Fine I thought. But the little Serbian I can understand (those protoslavic parts that are identical across slavic languages) I wondered already. Then they labelled Milosevic a _regime_. And then they brought the hourly news and station’s name and I had no questions anymore and instantly switchjed off the darn radio. Because here is what it was: Radio Svobodny Europe (Radio Free Europe) or Europe swobodny, cannot find it via google but it was there.
  
  So it was a typical Soros style western propaganda outlet that I got trapped by for half an hour.
  
  Then another thing which shocked me in Serbia: In the streets more and more latin script gets adapted, cyrillic less and less (much unlike in the Serbian part of Bosnia).
  
  Economic situation: In the previously industrial shaped suburbs surrounding Beograd (both sides of the Danube and both sides of the Sava) you not only still see quite some mostly industrial ruins and vacant factories, but the pollution (lets not even discuss the air pollution) with wild waste dumps has reached levels like in Cairo. Then you see some hopelessly impoverished persons who apparently make their “living” not only by collecting old pices of coal, but also old plastic bottles and other garbage. While looking for the right way over the Danube (very bad regime of road-signs) I ended up in areas that broken and dirty – I thought I’m suddenly in Bangladesh.
  
  The wild waste dumps around cities and even in nature appear to be a growing problem, especially in Beograd and Pancevo, but not limited to them.
  Maybe the waste collection subsystem no longer works??
  Or is it unpayable to throw away stuff the correct way?
  
  In Pancevo just some kilometers east of Beograd among a lot of other heavy industries there once was a very large railway manufacturer. You see a huge parking lot for 10’s of 1000’s of employees. Most of the factory halls look quite modern (1980ies/90ies), but only the walls are standing. On the entire parking lot not 10000 but 3 cars are parked. Grass and nature is winning over the rest.
  
  Look what even our ProZioEU-friends write about Pancevo:
  Pančevo, dead town http://www.balcanicaucaso.org/eng/Regions-and-countries/Serbia/Pancevo-dead-town-126468
  
  Near the railway station there is another ruin, which looks as if it once was a modern cultural place or maybe a Yugoslav shopping mall, with a modern looking architecture.
  But it is vacant, empty and a ruin.
  
  The only thing that tops this all in the quality of having shocked me: The young generation seems to have been taken over already via 24x7x365 brainwashing (and I’m talking about real Serbs, not even those in Vojvodina who still claim to be ethnic Hungarians after 96 years). Those fools even welcomed me with my small Ford Ka when they saw that I have a German number plate.
  They believe Yugoslavia was an evil dictatorship and that Serbia has its future in the EU.
  
  A pity they never read: Slobodan Milosevic and the Destruction of Yugoslavia https://books.google.de/books?id=fu1QiZ1n5AgC&pg=PA16&dq=Slobodan+Milo%C5%A1evi%C4%87+father&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Slobodan%20Milo%C5%A1evi%C4%87%20father&f=false
  - Bodin on February 06, 2016 · at 2:46 am EST/EDT
    
    Bosnia is just one of 3 lands which makes that unnatural and unwanted EU/Western colony called Bosnia and Herzegovina, just like Bavaria and Baden-Wurttenberg in Germany. Bosnia is land of Bosnian people, Repuublika Srpska is the land of Serbian people and Herzegovina is the land of Croatian people. Together Croatians and Bosnians make Federation of their two lands into an entity/state called Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. But since the borders of Bosnia on one hand and Herzegovina on teh other, i.e. borders between Bosnians and Croats, are not defined, it is up to them to define them. Serbs from RS only want to be free from that fascist western filth. You know that Bosnians and Croats had concentration camps for children? Croats were the only nation in history of the mankind which run concentration camps for children, and you wouldn’t believe who run that concentration camps on Croatian side (Jasenovac and Gradiska Stara). Nuns. Catholic nuns. Croats are well known perpetrators of atrocities. Even your people has heard about Croatian atrocities. During 30 years War Croats committed such massacres on the German civilians during the Sack of Magdeburg in 1631 that at the beginning of the 20th century German mothers still scared their children with tales about evil Croats because of those atrocities. To this say there is a written reminder of it on the gates of Magdeburg’s Cathedral that say: “God save us from the plague, hunger, war and the Croats.” Shame how Germans have never had there revenge on evildoer Croats. Croats have always known how to crawl into somebody’s ass. Ass-kissers and prostitutes. Nowadays they are busy licking American ass. Maybe we could work together to get our revenge for their past activities? We can split the Adriatic coast they took for themselves. Nothing south of Split belongs to them historically anyway (it was something they got through Vatican’s business: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Central_and_Eastern_Europe_around_950_AD.png), so we get lands south of Split and Germans get everything north. There are lots of pools, ponds and swamps in Slavonia which are more than enough for Croats.
    
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=513VOo5P63Y
    - Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 06, 2016 · at 8:37 am EST/EDT
      
      @Bodin: You mix truth with fiction multiplied by rude hatred.
      Also: Do not call me a “German”.
      
      On one side you pretend to fight western fascism. In the next line you contradict yourself by calling communists “scum”.
      
      Your post is full of hate, written in a style like in the year 1200.
      If you write like that in public forums you rather harm your nation.
      Like those Ukrainian Banderists do who also pretend to love their country or like Hitler who claimed the same.
      
      As for your historic map: The problem is, if you want to pick the single one map which fits your wet dreams best, then you also need to defend these territories and keep them under your control (and at that: without acting yourself like those who you condem).
      
      Otherwise one could also come with maps like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary#/media/File:Louis%27s_kingdoms_and_his_vassal_territories.png
      
      Further: If you claim to be sooooo much into truth and justice, why did you happen to forget those people who lived there before the slavs (which I admire!) came???
      
      Then it looks a bit different:
      
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians#/media/File:Glasinac_culture.png
      
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians
      
      It is exactly bigots like you that are your country’s worst enemies.
      Tito at least tried to find fair compromises for all.
      And while this statement will probably bring your blood to boil, you can’t prove me wrong on that.
      With such fanatics on all sides, there will never be peace.
      
      As for the insane borders of BiH versus Croatia surrounding it (and cutting it from Sea access) also with Istria and Slavonia (northern Croatia) you are certainly right.
      It was hammered into stone at the so called “Berlin Peace Conference” of 1880 to convert the Balkans into a never calming down powder keg.
      But whom are you telling this?? A German?? And do you hold _me_ responsible for the crimes committed here in 1880???
      
      Get some coffee and enjoy the sunshine outside …..
      - Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 06, 2016 · at 10:32 am EST/EDT
        
        Correction: What I referred to was not the 1880 Berlin Conference (resolving issues with the greek-ottoman border), but the 1878 Congress of Berlin:
        
        Congress of Berlin
        
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Berlin
        
        and the resulting: Treaty of Berlin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Berlin_%281878%29
        
        which brought us into a mess that we are still suffering from until this day:
        
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Berlin#/media/File:Balkans_1878.png
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Berlin_%281878%29#/media/File:SouthEast_Europe_1878.jpg
        
        Bodin on February 06, 2016 · at 1:28 pm EST/EDT
        
        My god! At Congress of Berlin in 1978 Austrohungary was given an approval from all other world powers to annex Ottoman eyalet Bosnia and Herzegovina… and that’s it!
        
        I will tell you something about Germans, I know you are not German, but bear with me for a moment. In 1912 and 1913 a young kaplar named Adolph visited” Liverpool. What he was doing there, nobody knows (or lets pretend that we don’t, hm?). he got in prison and there was known to be visited by Emil Georg von Strauss, a Rothscilds-from-London servant. Later on that imprisoned man ascended to power in Germany, and was seen on many occasions bowing to Windsors (there are some spicy pictures on the Net, so you can google it and assure yourself in the truth of it). He was very loud and noisy in his speeches and rhetoric against the communists, and for lebensraum purpose he made sure that only Soviet land (nevermind the fact that the whole continent 10 times the size of Europe was just below his position on the map). He managed to build the strongest military force on the planet. After Britain declared war on him, he made sure that hundreds of thousands of trapped British Army soldiers at Dunkirk get to safety and be evacuated unharmed. None of these incidents never prompted German people or anyone in the ruling caste to question his loyalty, nevermind the bullshit he was spitting like equating Aryans with Germans as a race (take a look where and who Aryans were!). Germans never questioned anything until they started losing on the battlefield. That is how they were intoxicated with the propaganda and flattery of foreign-planted leader and ideology. Are you seeing some similarities with your condition by now?
        
        Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 06, 2016 · at 1:54 pm EST/EDT
        
        @Bodin:
        
        BTW: I’m not your God (Nature is!).
        
        There is also the theory that Hitler was an unlawful child of the Rothschilds.
        And similar stories are being spread for Merkel and I don’t know how many thousand persons.
        
        If you want to spend your time with such stories, there will never be enough time to verify only 1/100th of them.
        
        What’s much more important is to deal with the money changers, Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Warburgs, freemasons, Bilderbergers, royal families like the Windsors and a douzen others.
        
        Do you know : bill still money masters https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bill+still+money+masters
        ??
        
        We could endlessly discuss Lenin and Stalin vs. Trotsky.
        
        Joseph Stalin – here and now
        Andrei Fursov (Андрей Фурсов) – Russian historian, sociologist, writer, organizer of science.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkA5u9u3TB0
        
        Otherwise my response is to counteract the AZ Empire from the grassroots, by creating a real Soviet Union: SILENZIUM The battle goes on (Неба утреннего стяг). Исправленый звук https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5Ku4qFfpI4
        
        But with your general hate towards communism forgive me – I will use my Saturday in a more productive manner.
        If you don’t want communism, then you won’t get communism.
        End of the story.
        
        Switch off your rationale and continue to kill and get killed your brothers due to religions from the iron ages (this affects most of the so called religions aka SECTS).
        
        The REAL Truth About Religion And Its Origins – MUST WATCH!! [High Quality]
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50
        
        Uncle Bob 1 on February 06, 2016 · at 8:15 pm EST/EDT
        
        Haha,had the Communists used that “type” of propaganda during the Soviet days. They would have gotten more support in the World. OK,I say that cynically,but its still true. The way you fight in politics is the same way as in war. The West understood that,the East didn’t. It was the “perceived” advantages of the West that destroyed the USSR among her population (the jeans and rock music theory),not real advantages. We all see what happened to the nations in Eastern Europe after the USSR. Almost all of them declined in population. The living standards went down (and still are except for the wealthy and upper classes),and the “people” lost their social protections.They all have unemployment and even worse underemployment problems. Just think of how much worse those would be if millions of people hadn’t fled their countries. And the birthrates had the same level as before.What the Communists were “horrible” at,was articulating the advantages for the “common people” they offered. They lost the propaganda battle,by leaving the field of battle to the West. By thinking that guns and steel plants were more important to propaganda than pretty girls,jeans,and rock music was.And Russia today realizes that.Just as we see with how much better they are getting at showing life in Russia.Had the Communists spent more time on “music video’s” and less time on publishing dull Politburo meeting’s reports. Things might have turned out differently for them.
      - Bodin on February 06, 2016 · at 1:03 pm EST/EDT
        
        It wasn’t communists who fought, but we the Serb people! Communists were just the ruling foreign-implemented caste who did nothing but betray interests of our Serbian people. We had to accept Croat Tito as our “leader” because we didn’t have the military industry, that is because we were depended on the smuggled military “aid” by the Americans and the Brits (who made Tito partisan leader, making his command the condition of military aid). Communists are scum! Treacherous scum! I lost many on both sides of my family during the war, my people went from being 57% overall population of the colony to 34% now, and for such a gargantuan price we paid for leading the communist ruling-caste scum caste to victory, we got nothing but spittle from that filth. They took Sutorina and added it to Montenegro. Now they are our people so nobody objected, but expanding Croatia on our blood… that’s not something forgivable even in the realm of dreams!
        
        Where Have I added any fiction in my post, Show it! Is De Administrando Imperio of Constantine VII, the best source of events, developments, facts and occurrences of the Early Middle Ages, “peddling fiction?” That map I gave you show the ethnic borders on our arrival here in 7th century, and during the rule of Prince Caslav Klonimirovic. Take any map you want from that time, it will tell you the same. Here.
        
        https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Serb_lands_in_the_10th_century_%28en%29.png
        
        https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zeta_in_1084_pl.png
        
        https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Srbsko_XI_ru.svg
        
        https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Serbia960AD.png
        
        https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_Serbia
        
        As for the Illirians, we assimilated them after we had conquered them. They left from the time and history in early Middle Ages.
        
        And why are you putting that map of Hungarian realm from the 14th century? It has no significance. It is not even related to any theme or subject opened here.
        
        This post has been edited to remove offensive personal attacks … please read moderation policy item 2 “All comment have to be impeccably courteous ….” mod-hs
        
        Bodin on February 06, 2016 · at 1:36 pm EST/EDT
        
        Why are you censoring, sorry, “moderating” my response to that %^$#@? You are violating my human right! Nobody has the right of not being offended #$@%^&! You are making a mockery of our rights as human beings! you $%$$##!
        Please note Saker’s moderation policy … the blog strives for polite discussion not venting and name calling .. mod-hs
  - Bodin on February 06, 2016 · at 3:33 am EST/EDT
    
    p.s.
    
    And Istria was never “Croatian.” Croats got Istria for the 1st time in 1945. Istria was paid by the Serbian blood, yet Croats got it. Communist scum gave them, and we paid with our blood for it!
    - Uncle Bob 1 on February 06, 2016 · at 8:34 pm EST/EDT
      
      Istria was (when you deduct the Italian minority) half Slovene and half Croatian (my percentages might be slightly off,but not much). So the Yugoslav government divided it between Slovenia and Croatia. What did you think they would do with it. There were no Serbs there. So they wouldn’t make it part of Serbia. And it is too small to make a national republic out of. So the commonsense thing in those days was to divide it between those two republics. In my opinion,the mistake Yugoslavia made (and the USSR as well) was in having separate “republics” in the one country to start with. From an ideology that preached unity,and the coming “socialist man”. Catering to nationalism was a “kiss of death” to start with.King Alexander “got it right” when he divided Yugoslavia into provinces named after rivers to try and unify the regions. He realized the great success the French had with France,by creating “departments” that unified the French away from their regionalisms of the past.And wanted to do that in Yugoslavia. But his murder,his successors weakness.And then WW2 ended that idea. And the new rulers thought they should use the same policy adopted in the USSR. A mistake that cost them everything (just as that mistake did in the USSR).
      - Serbian girl on February 06, 2016 · at 9:29 pm EST/EDT
        
        Yes but why was Croatia, a Nazi ally, awarded with that land? .. Because after WW ii Croats became “Yugoslavs” . After independence technically Croatia should have returned any territory they gained as “Yugoslavs ” because as Croats they are certainly not entitled to it. Of course practically this is impossible and will never happen.
        
        Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 06, 2016 · at 9:48 pm EST/EDT
        
        Who was a Nazi ally?
        
        A) All Croats, every single one, by full intention and full willingful choice
        
        B) a puppet “Elite” like in all the other Nazi allies, such as Vichy-France, Bulgaria, Romania etc etc etc?
        
        Then tell me: Shouldn’t all ethnic Serbs now be punished, too, because all your current Serbian governments since the removal of Slobodan Milosevic are more or less Nazi allies (EU) ?
        
        Hint: Don’t confuse “government” with nation/the people.
        Otherwise we all are Nazis here talking in English (which is an AZ Nazi language).
        
        No, there were also Communists and partisans in Croatia, like everywhere.
        (ah, I forgot: “Scum” and “Trash”)
        
        Serbian girl on February 06, 2016 · at 11:31 pm EST/EDT
        
        Ante Pavelic’s Independent State of Croatia was a Nazi Ally.
        
        Bodin on February 07, 2016 · at 10:12 pm EST/EDT
        
        re: Martin
        I see that my previous comment addressed to you didn’t get through, so here are some facts for you. Croats only started joining the partisans when things begun losing, and not before. Only in early ’43 did Croats begun to join the partisans, and vast majority, really overwhelming number of them, were Dalmatians partly because Hitler had ordered Pavelic to give part of Dalamatia to the Italians previously, and partly because, I suspect, many of them know their roots (maps from above I posted hold the answer to why). That is everything to know about Croatian partake in resistance: it came when tide begun to turn, and from Dalmatians. At the beginning of the war, you could count Croats in the partisan movement on the fingers of your hand. I can tell you that all partisan brigades formed on the soil of RS (which vast majority of partisan fighting force came from), Serbs made almost exclusive 100% participation rate.
        
        Martin from S.E.B. on February 08, 2016 · at 12:29 am EST/EDT
        
        Bodin:
        
        I read it, but must at least attempt to verify it as best as possible.
        
        But isn’t it always like that with resistance – if only a minority is willing to resists, under a certain threshold it can be a bit deadly to show true colors.
        
        But thanks for this info.
        When listening to you it appears to be all very nice and easy.
        Hopefully not better than it really was.
        
        There are good and bad people in every country, on all sides.
        Life is not black versus white. It’s a gradient.
        Never forget this. And yes: This is also a fact.
        
        Bodin on February 07, 2016 · at 4:18 pm EST/EDT
        
        re: Serbian Girl
        Because Craots are, as good Catholics, Vatican’s vassals. You don’t think Vatican is important? Do you know what the official title of the House of Rothschild is? It is “Guardians of the Vatican’s treasury.” Rothschilds are Jesuits, and Jesuits took power of Vatican somewhere at the beginning of 19th century. Napoleon was their soldier.
        
        Uncle Bob 1 on February 08, 2016 · at 10:32 am EST/EDT
        
        Because the intention of the Communists was to heal the ethnic divisions in Yugoslavia by hiding them (the wrong choice). The Soviets did the same in Ukraine. They tried not to publicize too much about the pro-nazi bandera in West Ukraine. So many of those didn’t get the punishment they deserved. And instead West Ukraine was made a part of Ukraine (they could of just as well formed a separate “republic” out of it.)
        
        Bodin on February 08, 2016 · at 12:52 pm EST/EDT
        
        re: Uncle Bob
        Communists only wanted to rule like all rulers do — it’s is that simple. And they were utterly bad at it: only thing they did know is how to lie and believing how the people will go with it. You could say that lying was the only thing they did know how to do. They weren’t good at anything else, but they were still better than most of the democratic liberal leaders around here today for not only are liberals bigger liars, but liberals also steal and cheat en masse plus they propagate and spread sexual deviant, wicked, kinky and perverse behavior together with generally every aspect of corruption and degeneracy human defects have ever thought of. It also says a lot about them thinking they could “mend the differences,” as you put it, of those who were having concentration camps with their victims: thoughts of spreading some brotherhood bonds between people after such atrocities speak of immense megalomany those communists morons, or rather those for whom communists worked for (they were nothing but bureaucrats) had had. As for Istria, like it’s the case with your “knowledge” of our language and communists and their works (which are nothing but lies and propaganda that have probably come from communist sources; their stories in other words) — you know nothing. “Your” story is logical impossibility to put it euphemistically so you liberals around here wouldn’t get upset (it just goes to show how utter hypocrites you are claiming to be for the freedom of speech, yet always trying to cook up “reasons” to curb it. You are communists through and through). But without further ado, educate yourself regarding indigenous Istrian population:
        
        Istrian Italians are an ethnic group in the northern Adriatic region of Istria, related to the Italian people of Italy. Historically they are descendants from the original Latinized population of Roman Istria, from the Venetian-speaking settlers who came to Istria during the time of the Republic of Venice, and from the South Slavic population in Istria which culturally assimilated themselves to the Latins. Today, as a result of the Istrian exodus, the majority of Istrian Italians live outside of the Istrian peninsula. The term Istrian exodus refers to the post-World War II departure of ethnic Italians from the Yugoslav territory of Istria. According to various sources, the exodus is estimated to have amounted to between some 230,000 and 350,000 people.
        
        Istria today has 244.000 people.
        
        Just don’t spread fiction of “one nation” and “unitary” language. Don’t lie.
        
        Uncle Bob 1 on February 08, 2016 · at 1:27 pm EST/EDT
        
        Oh ye of little faith:
        
        “Indeed, in 1910, the ethnic and linguistic composition was completely mixed and the Italians were reduced to minority, although still significant. According to the Austrian census results, out of 404,309 inhabitants in the “Margravate of Istria”, 168,116 (41.6%) spoke Croatian, 147,416 (36.5%) spoke Italian, 55,365 (13.7%) spoke Slovene, 13,279 (3.3%) spoke German, 882 (0.2%) spoke Romanian, 2,116 (0.5%) spoke other languages and 17,135 (4.2%) were non-citizens, which had not been asked for their language of communication.”
        
        And here is a “non-Communist” map from the Austro-Hungarian Empire of the population of Istria. I really don’t understand why you would even attempt to argue with facts. By doing that it calls into question all the other points you try and make.
        
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istrian_Italians#/media/File:Istria_census_1910.PNG
        
        Martin from S.E.B. on February 08, 2016 · at 4:29 pm EST/EDT
        
        Right, and in Ukraine just as in Yugoslavia theiy let way too many known war criminals and slaughterers unpunished leave the country to places such as Canada where they since then made much noise about their “diaspora” and could continue their ideological hatred – even with $$$ial support of the West.
        
        It is like growing a virus in bottles and then suddenly releasing the Jeanny out of a Pandora’s box.
        It paid out badly.
        
        Uncle Bob 1 on February 08, 2016 · at 9:21 pm EST/EDT
        
        Yes,but with the Croatian fascists Australia was more their refuge.While for the Ukrainian fascists in seems it was Canada.Not of course that some of each didn’t go to the other country. And many also found a “home” in the US as well (and Latin America).
      - Martin from S.E.B. on February 06, 2016 · at 11:30 pm EST/EDT
        
        Interesting points!
      - Bodin on February 07, 2016 · at 3:50 pm EST/EDT
        
        re: Uncle Bob
        There was no Croats in Istria before the WW2, no more than there are Italians in Istria now (less than 5%). Istria was never Croat. Ever. End of story. Yes, if we pay or win something, then it belongs to us, no matter how many of our people are there. There were no Albanians in Kosovo before 150 yrs ago, now they make 97% majority. We could easily allocate enough Serbs in Istria, there would be no problem with that.
        
        Uncle Bob 1 on February 08, 2016 · at 10:26 am EST/EDT
        
        You really should read history more. And take a look at a map (wasn’t it you that also likes maps).Here is one showing ethnic groups in the area in 1910 under the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Who do you think the light brown colored area in Istria was meant to show. The legend to the map says Croats and Serbs. But since we know how far away from Serbia Istria is. Just take a “guess” as to who they meant inhabited that area.
  - Bodin on February 06, 2016 · at 3:49 am EST/EDT
    
    Why is my post not getting through? I said that Istria was never Croatian. Istria was given to Croats by communist trash in 1945. Istria was “paid” with the Serbs’ blood, and given to Croats by communists!
    - Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 06, 2016 · at 12:47 pm EST/EDT
      
      @Bodin
      
      Your language is that of a SS guard.
      And who paid what with your (?) blood?
      
      Discussion please … not abusing one liners …. mod-hs
      - Bodin on February 06, 2016 · at 1:45 pm EST/EDT
        
        Comment removed … moderation policy … all future of this nature will be trashed … mod-hs
- Serbian girl on February 05, 2016 · at 8:37 pm EST/EDT
  
  Of course the muslims in Bosnia love Tito, because Tito was the first to recognise Islam as an ethnicity.
  
  Under Tito, muslims were recognised as “Bosniaks” who could aspire to a separate individual statehood. Previously muslims in Bosnia were either ethnic Serbs or Croats who had converted to Islam during the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans.
  
  paragraph “Yugoslavia 1945- 1992” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks#Yugoslavia_.281945-1992.29
  
  Regarding Sarajevo, prior to the war, 1/3 of the population was Serbian Orthodox. There may not be many bearded men visible on the street, but Sarajevo is now a mostly muslim city. The last census of Sarajevo was done in 1991. To this day, the Sarajevo authorities refuse to conduct a new census. No doubt this would raise some uncomfortable questions as to what happened to Sarajevo’s christian population? /whose-bosnia-is-it-anyways/
  
  Finally, I am glad to hear that Martin met some Bosnian muslims who do not hate Serbs. Most of the Muslims in Sarajevo that I know have a lot of bitterness against the Serbs. How can I blame them? They are civilians and suffered greatly during the war. We suffered as well, but “we deserve it” since we are Serbs.
  - Uncle Bob 1 on February 05, 2016 · at 10:32 pm EST/EDT
    
    The more important part of his post wasn’t mentioned. And that was the conditions in Beograd today. And also,the Serbian youth becoming stooges for the West. It isn’t hard to see the pattern,we see it clearly in Ukraine. But “one” would have to wonder how it is that (after Ukraine) Serbians don’t see that pattern and stop it.
    
    I have another question.What are the “perceived” advantages to the Serbian people for joining the EU and NATO. I think we all know the downside to that. But what are the “perceived” advantages,that allow that side to gain support. Maybe knowing that would explain why so many would willingly betray their people, and their whole history, to jump in bed with their past murderers.
    - Serbian girl on February 06, 2016 · at 12:10 pm EST/EDT
      
      Uncle Bob,
      The question is not why we do it but why do we KEEP doing it?
      
      After WWii we fought off the Nazis only to “jump in bed” as you put it, with Croats and Muslims who were Nazi collaborators to create a joint country with them.
      
      We put up a fight against NATO EU and then we want to join them.
      
      How do explain the irrational?
      
      I guess we’re still waiting for our own Vladimir Putin.
      - Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 06, 2016 · at 1:17 pm EST/EDT
        
        @Serbian girl:
        
        Then maybe you have no clue who Vladimir Putin is and what he does.
        The Russian Federation is a multiethnic Federation for a reason.
        One of the reasons why I still respect Saker so much is, that he repeatedly admitted this fact and wrote excellent articles about it.
        
        There is no homogenous “Russia”, at last not everywhere border2border across the territory of the RF.
        
        Same with Germany btw, same even even more so also with Serbia.
        If you want an ethnically cleansed Serbia with DNA checks, then you must exclude at least 60% of your current population even if we only cover the current Serbia (let alone all of Yugoslavia aka what you all claim as “belongs to Serbia).
        
        What are you going to do with those other 60% (Serbia) and 80% (other ex Yugoslavia parts you claim ownership for)?
        
        Concentration camp?
        Or if you are polite enough to simply expell them, where do you want them to go?? “Germany”??
        
        Sorry, but the more I’m dealing with Serb nationalists, the more sick I feel.
        
        The words [compromise] and [peaceful co-existance] were on a page that has been teared out of your dictionary?
        
        Serbian girl on February 06, 2016 · at 3:56 pm EST/EDT
        
        VVP has stood up for the rights of the Russian people, and has decided that Russian blood and treasure will be used to further Russian interests. He has also been respectful of the minorities living in his country.
        
        For this he has been called a Nazi, the “new Hitler”, Nationalist etc by the west.
        
        Much like what you’re calling us Serbs now simply because we aspire to the same thing…
        
        Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 06, 2016 · at 5:37 pm EST/EDT
        
        @Serbian Girl: What? VVP has “decided to use Russian blood to further Russian Interests”?
        If that was the case, he wouldn’t have a 90% rating.
        
        Are you sure you are a Real (T.M.) TheSaker SitRep author with such flat claims?
        You describe VVP as if the western hatred tabloid headlines about him being the new Tsar were correct.
        
        This means you didn’t understand anything about Putin and are cheering him only due to not having understood who he is and what he stands for.
        
        Your way of dealing with counter-arguments leaves some wishes open.
        
        p.s. Although I like Yugoslavia very much and had been asked repeatedly if I would want to live there, irrational views like yours have always prevented me from saying yes.
        I know and my heart feels only Rossiya as being my new home country. For my taste you on the Balkans are a bit too nervous and too trouble-oriented.
      - Uncle Bob 1 on February 06, 2016 · at 7:19 pm EST/EDT
        
        That doesn’t really answer the question of the “perceived” advantages. It only asks why as well. I’m looking to understand the “thinking” of the young brainwashed that Martin talks about. Why they are so willing to betray their people for a “Europe”,that so many here (and other places) say doesn’t really “exist” anymore (if it ever even did exist). The same question I would ask of other Eastern Europeans. Why is “washing toilets” so attractive to Balts and Poles,etc,in London or Berlin. Why is the, being considered “lesser” people by West Europeans “better” to them in those countries.Instead of staying in their countries and building a “better” Latvia,Estonia,Lithuania,Poland,Romania,etc.I could understand if they were fleeing nazi’s like the people of Ukraine going to Russia. But as stupid as their home regimes may be,they aren’t as bad as the junta in Ukraine.
        
        But as to the answer to what you “did” say. Most unbiased (i.e. non-nationalist) scholars ,say Serbs,Croats,Montenegrins,and Bosians,are one people divided by history and religion.Even in most areas the dialects of the language or even less divided than West and East Russian dialects are.So I don’t find it unusual that they should have united (the great fear of those peoples enemies for centuries. And the dream of those peoples leaders for those same centuries.). I just find the “methods” used for that unification were ridiculously implemented.Just think about it for a second.Those “nationalists” among those peoples said they had to breakup Yugoslavia because they “couldn’t stand” being unified “together”. And now,a few years after,those same regimes,are “jumping all over themselves” to “join” an EU,whose entire stated purpose is to “unite” Europe into one state.The stupidity of that beggars the imagination. The same BTW is true of Ukraine.Ukraine’s leaders couldn’t “stand” to be unified in the USSR. But are wanting to “jump from the frying pan into the fire” with the EU.Do the “people” in Eastern Europe not ask themselves these questions. Seriously,just how hard for them is it to think of those questions. And for the Western Europeans to ask themselves “the reverse”. Do they want their countries to be “unified” with peoples they can barely stand. That they “look down on” in their own countries.How many times have we heard of Western Europeans complaining about the “flood” of Eastern Europeans coming into their countries. So,they then,turn around and want to “unify” with those very peoples.Talk about perverted thinking,that takes the prize for it.
        
        The EU has taken “untold” billions of Euro’s from the European taxpayers over the years. And given that money to Eastern European regimes (and Southern European regimes). Just to prevent what is taking place today in front of their very eyes.Poland alone got over (way over) 150 billion to build up that country. And still their are “millions” (5 so far as I’ve heard) of Poles that have left Poland (and more leaving) to go wash toilets in as far away as Dublin even. The Baltic states have lost and are still losing a quarter of their limited population to the “bathrooms” of London and the rest of Western Europe.And even “tiny” Iceland is awash in Romanian immigrants.Of all peoples,Romanians in “Iceland”,really,”Iceland Karl,Iceland”. Now we can add to that the “Syrian” refugee’s bringing to Europe the “joys” of multiculturalism US style.If I was to be sarcastically cynical. I’d say at least that might make Western Europeans more happy about the Eastern Europeans that flooded their countries. They at least were racially and religiously closer to them,so easier to assimilate.
        
        Martin from S.E.B. on February 06, 2016 · at 7:51 pm EST/EDT
        
        Hi Uncle Bob, a very good post and pretty much in line with my own views (and induced questions to the SouthSlavs).
        
        I don’t want to interfere with you asking those there who in theory should actually know the answers to our questions as detailed by you in an excellent way.
        
        Only a small point: In theory they are all the same narod, like all the RUS’ians (including from Red RUS, Black RUS, White RUS etc.).
        
        Only divided by their so called Religions (Croats = Roman Catholic, Serbs = East Orthodox Christians, Bosniaks = Muslim converts, Kosovars = Muslim converts with more Albanian genes).
        But there is more to it:
        
        A) You cannot divide them by border lines until this day. While we don’t have the free mixture of old K&K or Ottoman times nor of Yugoslav times anymore, they are still intermixed to a large extent (to which is difficult to find out, because as Serbian Girl correctly pointed out the new rulers hesitate to perform new census counts).
        
        B) There are different ethnicities in all of these new ex Yugoslav nation-let mini states:
        
        #0.) The ones who look like beautiful Russian women
        #1.) The ones who look like beautiful Turkish women
        #2.) The ones who look like not so beautiful babushkas even if young, maybe those are descendents from the original pre-slavic population
        #3.) Gypsies
        
        So it is a pool of ethnicities – unrelated to any borders.
        The statement that they are all the same nation is only true if it is considered a nation of multiple ethnicities from the outset on.
        
        Therefore the only possible way of peaceful co-existance can happen if these facts are no longer denied by any side. It is the peoples (plural!) of South-Slavs interbreeded with the original natives and Turks. Add to that Hungarains, Slovaks, Rusyns and what not (officially recognized minorities in Serbia). As long as some nationalist fanatics from either side continue to deny these _facts_, peace will never be possible. And consequently also no prosperity. Because as you correctly pointed out several times over the months and years, prosperity and economic growth can only take place if all those “tribes” finally unite again to be Yugoslavs. But everybody could see today in this very thread, how little chances we have to ever in our lives see something like this finally happening again.
        
        As reference, google for southslavic gene
        https://www.google.de/search?q=southslavic+gene&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=6lK2Vq_FEMSePrnij_AM
        
        Uncle Bob 1 on February 06, 2016 · at 8:51 pm EST/EDT
        
        Thanks Martin. You might be interested in these maps too. They give historians estimates of the language dialects used in the core regions of “Yugoslavia”. Both before the great mixing from the Ottoman period,and today.While dialect isn’t everything (as Ukraine clearly shows) it does give an idea of how people though of themselves in a certain period. To me its especially interesting because its before the rise of nationalism throughout Europe. In the days before that,your religion counted as much or more towards who you considered yourself to be than your language (in ethnically confused or changing regions).
        
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian#/media/File:Serbo_croatian_dialects_historical_distribution_2.png
        
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian#/media/File:Shtokavian_subdialects1988_incl_Slovenia.png
        
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian#/media/File:Croatian_dialects.PNG
        
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian#/media/File:Serbo_croatian_languages2006_02.png
        
        Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 06, 2016 · at 9:40 pm EST/EDT
        
        Thanks UB, highly interesting.
        I must do more reserach to find out more about these dialects.
        I with my open ears recognize that there must be some (only slight) form of dialects (BiH versus Serbia versus Croatia) – contradicting what a Croatian friend from Bosnia told me, but obviously I’m not a native speaker. Never heard of these subdialects’ names.
        
        It is also important to say (I forgot it) that the Croats are of course Roman Catholic _converts_.
        Nevertheless there were also Croatian and Bosnian Kingdoms very early on (at first everything was Orthodox Christian and before that they believed in various Gods [one should not equate Slavic people == Christians, this only came at some point in history]).
        The Balkans are such a highly interesting complex mess, enough stuff for a thousand Ph.D. dissertations.
        
        Serbian girl on February 06, 2016 · at 11:21 pm EST/EDT
        
        No one is contesting that we are the same people, Croats, Serbs, Bosnians.
        
        My point was that due to the more numerous (i.e populous) Serbian Orthodox entity, any unified country of our people would have a strong Serbian Orthodox character to it. For this reason, the West has always sought to dominate the Serbian Orthodox element on the Balkans either through a federal state where the Serbian influence is greatly diluted (Tito’s Yugoslavia) or completely broken apart (current day situation).
        
        Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 07, 2016 · at 12:29 am EST/EDT
        
        Solution (but you won’t like it) : Overcome the milennia old constraints related to all the so called “religions”, *UNITE*, turn into convinced full-blood communists and rebuild your country. Then you are a single nation again plus have all your lands back.
        
        But if you only want to dominate all others and want to forbid all other so called religions except for your own so called religion, believe me, it won’t work. Not even in 1000 years. Unless you kill all your brothers and sisters. In the name of religion, amen. Go back in history: Before the Muslims turned into mass-murderers the Christian crusaders were already excellent at it.
        
        FOR WHAT all that ?????
        Because “God” loves you so much?
        What a crap.
        
        Bodin on February 07, 2016 · at 4:09 pm EST/EDT
        
        Serbian Girl, no we are not the same people. So-called Bosnians are mostly Serbs (except for that part in Cazinska Krajina which has ever been Croatian; they have even spoken Cakavski… true Croatian language for a long time after their occupation by the Turks). Other part of Bosnians are Serbs, just like Montenegrins, Voidodians, Sumandinci, us Republicans (from RS), etc. are Serbs. Part of Croats are ethnically Serbian. Take a look at that maps I put in some of my previous posts. There are nothing south of rivers Cetina, Vrbas and Sava which is ethnically Croat. They were all added to Croatische people via the Vatican’s work. And to them you ought to add migration numbers, and since all migrations went from the sought to north, there can only be our Serb blood there. Aleksije Crnojevic, for example, lead a wave of Serbs from Kosovo to Slavonia. There has not been any migrations of Croats “downstream”… southward. That is also a fact.
        
        Uncle Bob 1 on February 08, 2016 · at 12:13 pm EST/EDT
        
        You do know that quite a few of the Bosnians were at first Vlachs right. That area except for the coast was the last to be Slavicized. And only really became Slav (of any type) when they embraced Christianity. With the Catholic ones becoming Croats and the Orthodox ones becoming Serbs.Just as many Eastern Germans have Slav ancestry and many Poles German ancestry. Many Serbs (and Croats) have Vlach ancestry.Even though ,of course,today,those people consider themselves differently.
        
        Bodin on February 07, 2016 · at 10:27 pm EST/EDT
        
        re: Uncle Bob
        You have no idea what you speak of. These are no “dialects” you are referring to, but languages. Similar languages like Slovak and Czech languages are similar, but different. Clakavski language (blue on your the map) is Croatian language. No stokavac (we who speak Stokavski language) who had not previously learned that languge understands it, but every stokavac understands perfectly well every 3 dialects of Stokavski: ijekavski, ikavski and ekavski. That’s why it is the same language, not similar but the same. You are just spouting communist lies and propaganda. There is no “Serbo-Croat” language no more than there is Czechoslovakian or Lithuanin-Estonian-latvian language. The same is true on the matter of our origins. Croats had had their kindom south of Volhynia/east of Moravia/Bohemia for thousands of years, whereas we on the other hand came from western banks of Caspian Sea, from the place of Khazarian capital Ithil.
        
        Uncle Bob 1 on February 08, 2016 · at 12:02 pm EST/EDT
        
        You need to read up on the meaning of “languages” as opposed to “dialects” of languages. As you can see from the map the dialect (one as you say of several) you speak is also (and always was since before the Ottoman’s) spoken in half of Croatia and much of Serbia and Bosnia. So what would you call that . Most scholars used “Serbo-Croatian” for it. Since it was shared in both areas. The other two dialects spoken in Croatia (much less than before) share a relationship with Slovene. Which isn’t unusual since that language is much as you say in the difference between Czech and Slovak with Serbo-Croatian.None of those thoughts come from Communist propaganda. Though the Communist did accept them also. They all came from 19th and early 20th century linguistics studies (many from Serbian scholars).
        
        Bodin on February 08, 2016 · at 1:14 pm EST/EDT
        
        I know very well the meanings of languages and dialects, it is you who does not. You are only blathering official narrative and that’s all. The truth is that after the Vienna Agreement of 1850. Croats have abandoned their language and accepted ours — that what you call “dialect.” Stokavski (Shtokavian) language has 3 dialects in itself:
        
        ♦ ijekavica
        https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ijekavski_izgovor
        
        ♦ ikavica
        https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikavski_izgovor
        
        ♦ and ekavica
        https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekavski_izgovor
        
        They (communists) branded it as “speech.” But know that every individual from that Shtokavian language dialects (ijekavica, ikavica and ekavica) understands the other ones Shtokavian language dialects perfectly well — because they are the same language, with dialects being subgroups or “subspecies” of that language. None of those Shtokavian language dialects understands other two language speakers (Kajkavian and Cajkavian language) without learning their language first. Croats accepted Shtokavian language as “their” own 1850 with so called Vienna Literary Agreement.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Literary_Agreement
        
        Like I said, you know nothing regarding the subjects you claim to possess knowledge of. Why do you have the urge to spread lies and propaganda then, hm?
        
        Please note moderation rule #2 about being “impeccably courteous to …” future comments of yours insulting other commenters will be ‘trashed’ … mod-hs
        
        Uncle Bob 1 on February 08, 2016 · at 10:23 pm EST/EDT
        
        This is to Bodin on February 08, 2016 · at 1:14 pm UTC (there was no reply button on his post).
        
        In your nationalist zeal to “massage” the truth you left out a few points. Using insults to cover your omissions of fact doesn’t work with me. I’ve dueled with zionist hasbara minions too many times to let a Serbian ultra-nationalist bother me. Here are highlights of points you left out:
        
        “Shtokavian or Štokavian (/ʃtɒˈkɑːviən, -ˈkæ-/; Serbo-Croatian: štokavski / штокавски, pronounced [ʃtǒːkaʋskiː])[2] is the prestige dialect of the pluricentric Serbo-Croatian language, and the basis of its Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian, and Montenegrin standards.[3] It is a part of the South Slavic dialect continuum.[4][5] Its name comes from the form for the interrogatory pronoun for “what” in Western Shtokavian, što (it is šta in Eastern Shtokavian). This is in contrast to the Kajkavian and Chakavian dialects (kaj and ča also meaning “what”).”
        
        “Shtokavian is spoken in Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, the major part of Croatia, and the southern part of Austria’s Burgenland. (BTW those people in Burgenland are Croats that have been there since the 1600’s .Long before the 1850 agreement.)The primary subdivisions of Shtokavian are based on two principles: one is whether the subdialect is Old-Shtokavian or Neo-Shtokavian, and different accents according to the way the old Slavic phoneme jat has changed. Modern dialectology generally recognises seven Shtokavian subdialects (Those subdialects include the ones you listed).”
        
        “The Proto-Shtokavian idiom appeared in the 12th century. In the following century or two, Shtokavian was divided into two zones: western, which covered the major part of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Slavonia in Croatia, and eastern, dominant in easternmost Bosnia and Herzegovina and greater parts of Montenegro and Serbia. Western Shtokavian was principally characterized by a three-accent system, whereas eastern Shtokavian was marked by a two-accent system. According to research of historical linguistics, Old-Shtokavian was well established by the mid-15th century. In this period it was still mixed with Church Slavonic to varying degrees.”
        
        “During the first half of the 19th century, protagonists of nascent Slavic philology were, as far as South Slavic dialects were concerned, embroiled in frequently bitter polemic about “ethnic affiliation” of native speakers of various dialects. This, from contemporary point of view, rather bizarre obsession was motivated primarily by political and national interests that prompted philologists-turned-ideologues to express their views on the subject. The most prominent contenders in the squabble, with conflicting agenda, were the Czech philologist Josef Dobrovský, the Slovak Pavel Šafárik, the Slovenes Jernej Kopitar and Franc Miklošič, the Serb Vuk Karadžić, the Croat of Slovak origin Bogoslav Šulek, and the Croatians Vatroslav Jagić and Ante Starčević.”
        
        “The dispute was primarily concerned with who can, philologically, be labelled as “Slovene”, “Croat” and “Serb” with the aim of expanding one’s national territory and influence. Born in the climate of romanticism and national awakening, these polemical “battles” led to increased tensions between the aforementioned nations, especially because the Shtokavian dialect cannot be split along ethnic lines in an unequivocal manner.”
        
        “Earliest texts of Shtokavian dialect
        Proto-Shtokavian, or Church Slavic with ingredients of nascent Shtokavian, were recorded in legal documents like the charter of Ban Kulin, regulating the commerce between Bosnia and Dubrovnik in Croatia, dated 1189, and in liturgical texts like Gršković’s and Mihanović’s fragments, ca. 1150, in southern Bosnia or Herzegovina. Experts’ opinions are divided with regard to the extent these texts, especially the Kulin ban parchment, contain contemporary Shtokavian vernacular. Mainly Shtokavian, with ingredients of Church Slavic, are numerous legal and commercial documents from pre-Ottoman Bosnia, Hum, Serbia, Zeta, and southern Dalmatia, especially Dubrovnik. The first comprehensive vernacular Shtokavian text is the Vatican Croatian Prayer Book, written in Dubrovnik a decade or two before 1400. In the next two centuries Shtokavian vernacular texts had been written mainly in Dubrovnik, other Adriatic cities and islands influenced by Dubrovnik, as well as in Bosnia, by Bosnian Franciscans and Bosniak Muslim vernacular alhamiado literature – the first example being “Chirwat turkisi” or “Croatian song”, dated 1589.” (You will notice that these early documents in the dialect are mostly from “Croat” areas. Long before the Communists were even thought of.)
        
        “Standard language
        The standard Bosnian, Croatian, Montenegrin, and Serbian variants of the pluricentric Serbo-Croatian standard language are all based on Neo-Shtokavian dialect.[19][20][21]”
        
        “However, it must be stressed that standard variants, irrespectively of their mutual differences, have been stylised in such manners that parts of the Neo-Shtokavian dialect have been retained—for instance, declension—but other features were purposely omitted or altered—for instance, the phoneme “h” was reinstated in the standard language.”
        
        “The Croatian has had a long tradition of Shtokavian vernacular literacy and literature. It took almost four and half centuries for Shtokavian to prevail as the dialectal basis for Croatian standard. In other periods, Chakavian and Kajkavian dialects, as well as hybrid Chakavian–Kajkavian–Shtokavian interdialects “contended” for the Croatian national koine – but eventually lost, mainly due to historical and political reasons. By the 1650s it was fairly obvious that Shtokavian would become the dialectal basis for the Croatian standard, but this process was finally completed in the 1850s, when Neo-Shtokavian Ijekavian, based mainly on Ragusan (Dubrovnik), Dalmatian, Bosnian, and Slavonian literary heritage became the national standard language.”
        
        “Serbian was much faster in standardisation. Although vernacular literature was present in the 18th century, it was Vuk Karadžić who, between 1818 and 1851, made a radical break with the past and established Serbian Neo-Shtokavian folklore idiom as the basis of standard Serbian (until then, educated Serbs had been using Serbian Slavic, Russian Slavic and hybrid Russian–Serbian language). Although he wrote in Serbian Ijekavian accent, the majority of Serbs have adopted Ekavian accent, which is dominant in Serbia. Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia, as well as Montenegrins, use the Ijekavian accent.”
        
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtokavian_dialect (notice the word “dialect”.)
        
        Hopefully you can contain your ultra-nationalism here. It has far too many very striking uncomfortable similarities to bandera-Ukrainian nationalism for it to be acceptable.
        
        Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 09, 2016 · at 3:32 pm EST/EDT
        
        To Uncle Bob 1 on February 08, 2016 · at 10:23 pm UTC :
        
        Uncle Bob, you are my hero.
        Tnx for this flood of _real_ info, rather than Bandera style propaganda until it somehow fits the agenda.
        
        Languages vs. dialects: What those blind Ultras never understand is, how Germany would look like if we were (still) as insane as them:
        
        https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Deutscher_Bund.png
        https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Dialekte#/media/File:Deutsche_Dialekte.PNG
        
        Anonymous on February 06, 2016 · at 10:15 pm EST/EDT
        
        @ Uncle Bob
        The scholars who write that Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, Montenegrins are ” one people divided by history and religion” are completely right! I totally agree with that statement.
        
        However it should also be clear that if a new ” Yugoslavia “were to be created then that state would inevitably be dominantly Serb orthodox. Why ? Because the Serbian population is the most numerous.
        Serbia population 7 M
        Croatia population 4 M
        Bosnia population 3.8 M (of which 30% are ethnic Serb orthodox and 40% are Muslim mostly of ethnic Serb extraction)
        Montenegro less than 1 M.
        
        The former Yugoslavia was allowed to exist only because it diminished and diluted Serbia’s (and by extension Russia’s) influence. Tito did not want a strong pro Russian element in his fiefdom. So he divided Serbia into 3 parts (Voivodina, Serbia, Kosovo,) he redrew some borders,and Serbian Muslims became “Bosnians”. ( hmm maybe this is why Tito is not really popular in Serbia..?)
        
        I have no problem if Croatia or Bosnia want independence. But then why is it wrong for Serbs to ask for reunification of their country? We just want our country back, that’s all.
        
        Serbian girl on February 06, 2016 · at 11:32 pm EST/EDT
        
        Sorry that was my comment above. Any comments, insults (as some are inclined on this thread) should be addressed to Serbian girl. Thanks!
        
        Uncle Bob 1 on February 08, 2016 · at 12:25 pm EST/EDT
        
        Thanks Serbian girl. I don’t think it would be a bad thing to reunite. Certainly no stranger that to see Serbia unite with Portugal or Norway in the EU.I’m not a believer in “patria chica’s”. That is exactly what helps the empire to control them better.Unity of related (and especially of the same) peoples is a stronger possibility of keeping your freedom from outsiders. Certainly that thinking isn’t “absolute”. There are some nations of related peoples that have a tradition of separateness. The Czech Republic and Poland,or Spain and Portugal as examples.But there are many others that don’t.
        
        Martin from S.E.B. on February 06, 2016 · at 11:42 pm EST/EDT
        
        Tito has redrawn these borders to allow for more self-determination and more fairness.
        In fact the opposite is true of what you stated: Serbia had even more voices in the Yugoslav parliament than before these partitions. That’s at least what they told the Bosnians, Croats, Slovenes, Macedonians etc.
        
        I wonder who told you this interpretation.
        A Soros funded “think” tank?
        
        Somebody is doing his best to discredit whatever peaceful harmony and to prevent a new Yugoslavia from ever materializing (and this started even before Tito’s death).
        Don’t blame Tito for it. Check who has an interest to teach you such never ending stories.
        And yes: Tito was wrong in his view to regard the USA as an ally while backstabbing Stalin (as soon as he didn’t need his help enymore [at least that’s what he mistakenly believed, now we know he was wrong, but few of the modern day Serbian nationalists will ever understand this]).
        
        Serbian girl on February 07, 2016 · at 12:43 am EST/EDT
        
        Tito ‘s redrawing of Serbia’s borders allowed for “more fairness” . Right!!
        
        Previously you called me a nationalist now you call me a pro-western Soros shill. You can’t even keep your insults straight.
        
        Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 07, 2016 · at 9:25 am EST/EDT
        
        @Serbian girl:
        
        I no longer will take the time to over and over again deal with you like with somebody who wants to have a fair discussion.
        Because every time I approach you in a fair manner (ignoring your previous bashings against me) the next thing (what was it, in your language “you spill out”) is such a frustrated (and frustrating) line either insulting me or complaining I would be insulting you.
        
        Go back to the [Start] field and re-read this entire thread.
        I even saved me a local copy to hdd because it was so interesting what I could learn from Uncle Bob.
        
        You however once again did not learn a single thing once again.
        Wasted energy …
        
        Serbian girl on February 06, 2016 · at 10:15 pm EST/EDT
        
        @ Uncle Bob
        The scholars who write that Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, Montenegrins are ” one people divided by history and religion” are completely right! I totally agree with that statement.
        
        However it should also be clear that if a new ” Yugoslavia “were to be created then that state would inevitably be dominantly Serb orthodox. Why ? Because the Serbian population is the most numerous.
        Serbia population 7 M
        Croatia population 4 M
        Bosnia population 3.8 M (of which 30% are ethnic Serb orthodox and 40% are Muslim mostly of ethnic Serb extraction)
        Montenegro less than 1 M.
        
        The former Yugoslavia was allowed to exist only because it diminished and diluted Serbia’s (and by extension Russia’s) influence. Tito did not want a strong pro Russian element in his fiefdom. So he divided Serbia into 3 parts (Voivodina, Serbia, Kosovo,) he redrew some borders,and Serbian Muslims became “Bosnians”. ( hmm maybe this is why Tito is not really popular in Serbia..?)
        
        I have no problem if Croatia or Bosnia want independence. But then why is it wrong for Serbs to ask for reunification of their country? We just want our country back, that’s all.
    - Dragan on February 06, 2016 · at 12:52 pm EST/EDT
      
      Your question about “perceived” advantages is a very good one,so i will try to answer it.
      
      Lack of national unity,cowardice and corruption,mixed with media control and state apparatus repression. Add to that mix that, for whatever reason all people of Serbia (Serbs and non-Serbs alike) went to war in ~100 years we almost always won in war but then lost it at the negotiating tables. So a saying circulating around about winning wars and losing at the negotiating table is easy to gain traction to those who gave up hope. And there are many of those. So if any option even include remotest possibility of a new war,that rhetoric is used to scare people away from it. But the trend is reversing. Although don’t expect much from these elections.
      
      As for those in power. They are the worst representatives of people in Serbia. Man and women with potential to be worst possible human beings in existence are groomed and brought to power to betray their country and their countrymen. Whole act is sugarcoated with cherry on top. We, citizens of Serbia do not own our country. Traitors among us do. But,as i said before, the trend is reversing.
      
      So,only a small percentage of citizens believe in EU and NATO dream. They are blind or sold, only in rare instances both. Others are resting from carrying the war against the Empire on our shoulders when others were weak or meek and are trying to retake our country from traitors.
      
      I hope this answers your question.
      - Uncle Bob 1 on February 06, 2016 · at 7:56 pm EST/EDT
        
        Thanks Dragan. But really I’m trying to understand the “thinking” behind the common people that support the EU (even if its a minority of Serbs). Is it the “visa” issue. Is it so they can desert Serbia easier. And move away to Western Europe ,as it seems to be among Ukrainians. And if that is it. Why should those people even be “allowed” to vote on that inside Serbia (and Ukraine).If they don’t intend to stay Serbs (or Ukrainians) then they shouldn’t even be permitted to have a say in that country’s politics.The politics of the country should “only” be allowed to those wanting to live there.And the same should be said for every other nation as well.If you don’t want to stay a part of the nation.Then your vote shouldn’t count at all.
        
        Dragan on February 07, 2016 · at 12:25 am EST/EDT
        
        @ Uncle Bob 1
        
        Serbian ethnic identity is under attack. So much filth was spilled upon us, and that process is ongoing still,that some of us are willing to give it up. Give it up and become a new man for the New World Order. Whenever someone mention the topic of ethnic identity and its history he is labeled as nationalist,fascist,nazi,right-wing (like that means something,just another divide and conquer strategy),…
        
        Our country is hijacked from us. Governments work against their citizens. Sounds familiar?
        
        One more thing to add. MSM narrative all over the world is that if you espouse anything positive regarding your ethnicity or nationality – you are a nationalist,fascist…you get the picture. Now,i understand that there are people who unconciously strive to exceptionalism. But not all. It is quite possible to be proud of my ancestry and respect other ethnic,national and religious groups and live with them.
        
        @ Katherine
        
        It was possible that he meant “Србијанац,Srbijanac”. If that is the case,then he meant someone from Serbia without autonomous provinces. Just to illustrate my point about attack on Serbian ethnic identity. Before WWII Serbia, just as any other part of Yugoslavia that will come to be known as republics,was not divided. That divide came after the WWII. Something similar to Russia,Ukraine and Crimea. Hope that helps
        
        Those who drew those borders did that at the expense of Serbian ethnic group. And we are not even allowed to rise our voice against it? Because we want to ethnically cleanse Serbia? Total nonsense. Just as Serbian girl said before,divide and conquer.
        
        Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 07, 2016 · at 12:37 am EST/EDT
        
        Uncle Bob:
        
        My idea of an explanation: The youth gets brainwashed into being consumer slaves (like everywhere). Their God is the next IPhone. To get it they will do _every_thing: Sell their soul (if they still have one), sell their baby on eBay, deny their identity, work as prostitutes, deny their heritage and sell out their countrymen including their mothers.
        
        You must also know that those fools never believe me when I seriously attempt to make it clear to them that the West is not a paradise (they refuse to believe me) :
        
        germany homeless
        https://www.google.de/search?q=germany+homeless&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwijnsXpuOTKAhUKiCwKHRD9A_8Q_AUICCgC&biw=1280&bih=885
        
        To them the “Golden West” is a myth, an ideal, a belief, a holy religion.
        I know it from my own time before 1989.
      - Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 07, 2016 · at 12:58 am EST/EDT
        
        @Dragan:
        
        You wrote:
        
        “””””As for those in power. They are the worst representatives of people in Serbia. Man and women with potential to be worst possible human beings in existence are groomed and brought to power to betray their country and their countrymen. Whole act is sugarcoated with cherry on top. We, citizens of Serbia do not own our country. Traitors among us do. But,as i said before, the trend is reversing”””””
        
        Please show me a single country (other than Russia and China) where this is not the case.
        Do you or do your fellow countrymen really believe there is “democracy” somewhere remotely related to the EU?
        
        Lend Nigel Farage your ear for some clues …
        Pls. see my other response to this subject (consumer slaves).
        
        Dragan on February 07, 2016 · at 12:04 pm EST/EDT
        
        @ Martin
        
        Some of my countrymen (us) indeed do believe that rainbow flows from every westerners a**,to put it bluntly. I am not one of them.
        
        “As you correctly stated: Ultra-nationalism and “religion” – those are the problems.
        And those there are too close to grasp the entire picture. It is like sitting too close to a classic TV screen: They can see large dots in big size (and can kill each other for each dot), but can never the entire picture.
        
        Others tell them from some remote distance that their approach is wrong, and that it is not good what they are saying and doing. But they reply that only they are close enough to actually estimate and understand their situation (the large small dots which in reality mean absolutely nothing, which they don’t realize).”
        
        You are not being fair here,Martin. Ultra-nationalism and corrupted religion is shoved down our throats 24/7/365. When someone try to say anything against it here and explain reasons,someone from far away knows better because we are not objective.
        
        We are fighting the same enemy here. Yes,Serbs have grievances against Tito and we air them. We have grievances against those who in the name of Croatian people killed over a million Serbs during WWII. We have grievance against those who make heroes of the butchers and even deny existence of the victims. We have grievance against NATO and EU who bombed us,poisoned our land and destroyed our economy and infrastructure. We have grievance with Ottoman empire. We have grievance against anyone who wants to turn victims into executioners and executioners into saints,martyrs and heroes. No matter their ethnic,national and religious affiliation.
        
        Our strife is part of our identity and there are some of us who do not want to loose that. Not for a million Ipads or some other glittery trinket. Story of our strife tell us who our friends are and who our enemies are,spoken by their deeds. Our ancestors our already turning enough in their graves. They gave their lives for something we do not want to raise our voices to defend? Shameful.
        
        Please do not be offended with my words. I consider you a good man. I used some of your words in talks with my friends,regarding unification of Germany and fable told here about it. Your words about EU have a dose of honesty not heard often. When the next time you were in Serbia,Novi Sad specifically, i would like you to be guest in my house. I think that moderators would not mind connecting us up.
        
        Hope to hear from you
        
        Martin from S.E.B. on February 07, 2016 · at 1:43 pm EST/EDT
        
        Dobar Dan Dragan!
        
        First of all thank you for your long message and invitation to Novi Sad.
        I made a break in your city just 1 week ago – at the wonderful Dunabe beach promenade/avenue where the young freshly fallen in love couples have a walk late on Saturday evening.
        
        It is certainly one of the most beautiful places not only in Serbia (reminds me of Budapest, but smaller). 100 times nicer than Beograd.
        I think a quick google can show at least a bit of the romantic atmosphere (although in reality it is even better with full view to the illuminated castle) :
        
        https://www.google.de/search?q=novi+sad+night&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJ_Nnn4eXKAhUBtywKHdPsA-kQ_AUIBygB&biw=1280&bih=885#tbm=isch&q=%22novi+sad%22+night+danube
        
        My criticism was absolutely not directed against you.
        I think I have explained it already (although a bit randomly, myself with a learning curve).
        
        BTW: I’m 1500km to the north, but does it mean I’m far away? NO! Because like you I grew up in a communist paradise and like yours it got destroyed by the West and we got annexed by the EU/NATO/USA.
        
        Like you my home country was brought into World Wars and the Anglo-USA/UK-bombers were rather interested in completely removing my countrymen from the face of the Earth, rather than bombing the weapons factories or any strategic targets. And we are under USA’s occupation for more than 70 years now (since 1990 way more so even, than from 1945 till 1989).
        We have a lot of blind zombies who realize nothing and would immediately go to war for defending the “Western Values” (especially in West-Germany).
        
        Unlike (a sadly increasing) number of your countrymen, the overwhelming majority of mine have almost forgotten what the Americans have done to us. Let alone what they had on their agenda:
        
        wanted to nuke east-berlin
        https://www.google.de/search?q=wanted+to+nuke+east-berlin&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=wUm3VrKDHMLmPeaxssAK
        
        Instead they rather prefer to remember them like nice friends giving the kids some american chocolate.
        Let completely alone who was responsible for Hitler’s rise (Dictate of Versailles, financial support from the Western Zionist intl. banking Elite). It was no coincidence.
        And even though we had a *massive* communist movement in Germany, the West brought Hitler to power because they wanted to destroy both Germany and the Soviet Union at once, cheaply.
        
        In that sense you and myself have 90% of the same history. So believe me – I know from my own ancestors blood (mostly civilians, 2 men from my father’s family aged 18 and 20 were brought to Siberia, never heard anything, but my Dedushka was not a soldier but locomotive driver) and lost territories and lost national identity what I’m talking about. My family consisted of extremely poor have-nothing’s and on top of that we were forced to migrate twice with bare pockets and one bag (it was not a choice but they were removed or otherwise would have been shot instantly), both after WW1 and after WW2 again (lived in East-Prussia and the others in Silesia, before that close to the then German-Russian border in Eastern Poland).
        
        So – you are open for a fair discussion.
        One can listen to each other and sometimes finds new views.
        taht’s much different from the 2 other posters my justified criticism was directed against. Not on a personal bashing level, but simply due to the fact that we try to discuss facts, here in a discussion room.
        
        As you correctly said, instead of the 2 others: We are fighting the same money changers.
        The same who have ruined and destroyed your and my country and about 130 others.
        
        Thanks for your invitation and I’m honored to say hello then (probably July, as finances permit, for now I resell the car until summer) – we can eat a Ćevapčići at the Danube with a cold big Kwas or Jelen.
        
        As email address (cheers to the NSA) use opensxce {aHt] mail {tochka) ru
        Vidimos!
        
        Dragan on February 09, 2016 · at 12:54 pm EST/EDT
        
        @ Martin
        
        Didi my mail reached you? Or did i read it wrongly?
        
        Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 09, 2016 · at 6:30 pm EST/EDT
        
        @ Dragan: Oh, it was in Spam on the mail.ru www interface.
        It is filtering out too many good emails while lettiung through real Spam.
        Disappointing.
        
        1 sec, I respond in a hurry, tnx
    - Katheine on February 06, 2016 · at 5:30 pm EST/EDT
      
      @Uncle Bob 1
      “What are the “perceived” advantages to the Serbian people for joining the EU and NATO. ”
      
      A young Serb who lives and works here has informed (when I asked him) that “Serb” refers to Serbs in Serbia, and “Serbian” refers to Serbs in Croatia. ????
      
      When I was in college I took a course that included reading Serbo-Croatian epics, and the language they were in was called Serbo-Croatian. Here is a paper:
      http://enargea.org/cave/BosKrajina/pages/Genesis.html
      
      Can anyone here confirm these usages?
      Katherine
      - Uncle Bob 1 on February 06, 2016 · at 10:27 pm EST/EDT
        
        Check out the maps I posted in a reply to Martin. They might help you understand that (especially the one on pre-Ottoman dialects).The history of those peoples is very complicated. So I’ll try to make it as simple as I can. Just before the Slavic tribes came to the area there had been a huge plague break out. Much of the population had died or fled. Law and order broke down throughout the area. Various Slavic tribes started to move in. Along with them were ones we know as Croats and Serbs. They were all brother Slavs,and mixing was simple and common.The other peoples there fled to the high areas,or to the coastal regions. Those were the last areas (over centuries) to be made Slavic speaking (and thinking).The Northern areas came under the rule of the Roman Catholic Church. While the Southern areas became Orthodox. That didn’t really mean much until the great Schism in the 1000’s broke Christianity in Europe apart. In those days,your religion counted more than language or ethnicity did.And so “basically” those Slavs there (and the newly made Slavs from the older peoples) that became Catholic also became Croats. While those that became Orthodox also became Serbs.Only in a few mixed areas (especially Bosnia) was that more difficult. It was easy in the border regions to slip from one faith to the other. And it took centuries to harden them into one or the other faiths.Bosnia was the prime example of such a “borderland” back then.Parts of it were ruled at various times by either Orthodox or Catholic rulers.And the churches never really paid much attention to their flocks there. When the Ottomans conquered the region they found it easier there than other places in “Yugoslavia” to made converts to Islam. Bosnians as a whole weren’t attached firmly to one faith or the other. So many of the great lords (to keep their lands and lives) converted to Islam in larger numbers than elsewhere. While many of the peasants,having no churchmen around anyway. Didn’t see that much of a difference between Christianity and Islam (in those days remember),and also converted more than in other places.While of course most people didn’t convert. The numbers were still huge. Which is why we see so many Muslims in that region today.During the Ottoman rule and the wars that came with it.Many thousands of “Orthodox Slavs” (now considered and considering themselves as Serbs) fled into Bosnia.And even huge numbers into the Croat lands.Many Croats had fled from those areas,or been enslaved and taken to Turkey,or been killed. So the Croatian lords and their Austrian rulers encouraged the migration of Serbs to those lands.They even promised they could practice their Orthodox faith there if they came. And gave them control of large lands on the border of Ottoman ruled territory as a “soldier militia” land.By the time the wars died down and the Ottomans were driven from the Balkans over 1/4 of Croatia’s population was considered Serbian.Especially those huge borderlands I mentioned. Which were vastly Serb.Today after the monstrous ethnic cleansing of those lands less than 5% of the people are Serb.During much of the early days of nationalism the Croat and Serb elite and upper classes (rightly) considered themselves as one people and wanted to unify together. Later some “ultra nationalists” changed and wanted to divide themselves under the old way of religion,into Croats and Serbs.The problem with that was obvious.What about the “Muslims” and the huge Serb minorities in the areas the Croats thought of as Croatia.Both groups of Croat and Serb nationalists at that time considered the Muslims as “their people”.They didn’t think how the Muslims viewed themselves mattered much.And both groups considered the Serbs in Croatia as “their people”. The Croats thinking was to convert them,drive them out,or kill them.While the Serbs thinking was they and their lands should be included in Serbia.During WWI the Serbs didn’t take advantage of the chance to unite those areas with Serbia.But instead listed to the “Yugoslav unity” argument. And after being asked by the Croats and Slovenes to unify with them, did so. They messed it up though. By not realizing that “unifying” isn’t the same as being ruled by Serbs. It meant an equal partnership. Which there never was before WW2.Had the Serbs wanted a “Greater Serbia” it would have been better to just annex the Serb populated areas and walked away.But instead they tried the “have your cake and eat it do” idea. And it was a disaster.During WW2 was a “heyday” for the extreme Croatian nationalist (nazi) Ustase followers.Hitler let them have a state of their own (after he destroyed Yugoslavia).Let them annex Bosnia to that state.And they went into an orgy of blood.Killing,or converting,or forcing to fled,hundreds of thousands of Serbs in that “enlarged Croat state”.They were so horribly cruel as to “shock” the SS. Not a group known for being shocked over cruelty themselves.The major group in “Yugoslavia” that though of themselves as still one nation were the Communists (remember Communist ideology doesn’t consider national identity as important,class identity comes first.). After a lot of infighting (along with fighting the nazis and fascist Italians),the Communists came to power. And what to do about the “nationalities” problem? Well they picked the worse of all choices. But to be fair,they just copied the USSR policy. And at that time it wasn’t thought it was also a bad choice.Only after the fall of the USSR was it shown “why” it was the wrong choice. Which since Yugoslavia fell first. The Soviets should have seen from that what was coming and prevented it,but they didn’t. After Tito died,the “house that he built” started to show giant cracks. In his days they had avoided making changes to increase unity in the country. And after him it just went from bad to worse.When the “republics” started to breakaway (encouraged greatly by the West) ultra-nationalism “again” came to the front in those countries. And we all know the rest of the story.
        
        Martin from S.E.B. on February 07, 2016 · at 6:23 am EST/EDT
        
        @Uncle Bob 1: You are a true Historian.
        I never in my life read such a complete summary about Yugoslavia in a Nutshell.
        And the most essential point is, that it is one of the rare pieces ever written without any national bias (be it Serbian, Bosnian, Croatian, Austro-Hungarian or simply the AZ empire).
        
        It helped to understand the situation better.
        I wonder which books you have.
        
        As you correctly stated: Ultra-nationalism and “religion” – those are the problems.
        And those there are too close to grasp the entire picture. It is like sitting too close to a classic TV screen: They can see large dots in big size (and can kill each other for each dot), but can never the entire picture.
        
        Others tell them from some remote distance that their approach is wrong, and that it is not good what they are saying and doing. But they reply that only they are close enough to actually estimate and understand their situation (the large small dots which in reality mean absolutely nothing, which they don’t realize).
        
        And so history keeps repeating itself (until one day nobody is left over on this stricken rotten planet).
        
        Uncle Bob 1 on February 08, 2016 · at 12:41 pm EST/EDT
        
        Thanks Martin. I learned a long time ago if someone wants to understand history you need to read all viewpoints of it. And from what you know from multiple studies then you can decide which viewpoint fits the “possible” truth. Many times the different views are half-truths. Which means they are “half” true. So if you combine them you can get a “true” picture of a time.Its complicated. But if you take the view that “what is is” with history. And don’t think it “must” conform to what you’d like,you can view it better.The problem with many people thinking on history is,they want something to be true so bad. That they will deny things that don’t fit their wishes. I figure,no matter how bad history is. It must be accepted and worked around.So that is why you see the “unbiased” in my posts. Certainly I do take a side. But I try to not let that get in the way of the truth.
  - Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 06, 2016 · at 12:40 am EST/EDT
    
    @Serbian girl:
    
    Everybody who visited this blog at least from time to time must be aware of my feelings towards religion, especially Islam: Not very nice feelings.
    
    But I have indeed good friends in Bosnia, because only a minority of them are religious muslims.
    As for Sarajevo: Have you ever attempted to drive through that town during rush hour with a rent’ed car (with *croatian* number plates!) and to switch the lane???
    That shows you that they don’t like Croats at least equally as much (while with Belgrade number plates I never had such problems).
    
    The problem with some people is, that they want to rant against me and don’t even read what I really wrote and on which side I stand.
    But don’t forget that I give everybody a chance, also Bosnians.
    In my view it is wrong to hate them only because of their passports. They do have a very high percentage of innocent and good people, too.
    
    Thanks to UB for his neutral guidance.
    - Serbian girl on February 06, 2016 · at 4:16 pm EST/EDT
      
      @Martin
      You think you can just drive through our country and this makes you an expert on who we are and what we should think.
      
      You come to this blog and call us Serbs “SS guards”, “bigots”, “nationalists” ethnic cleansers “wanting to turn our country into a concentration camp”!!!
      
      Noone is talking about this. Just you. What is this?? ?
      - Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 06, 2016 · at 5:23 pm EST/EDT
        
        If you or the other poster use terms like “trash” or “scum” for communists, yes, maybe you should redesign your way of expressing yourselves.
        
        Ah, I forgot, it is of course my mistake.
        Maybe I’m an agent to undermine your peace of mind. Or what else do you intend to state with such a claim?
        
        Once again you didn’t tell us or at least me, why Serbia is on such a hopelessly bad path into the future (which?) in the view of somebody with open eyes who dares to drive through your country.
        
        This time you ask me how I can claim to be an expert (where did I??) only because of driving through your country, unlike you who live there.
        Well, what was it last month? Some other poster asked me how I can dare to be an expert about East-Germany, only because I happen to live here??
        
        So what is it?? Arg, you always pick the answers you like best.
        Like in all aspects. Because you are the real experts, right? As you confused the official dissolution of the country Yugoslavia by about 10 years, and Croatia’s and Slovenia’s NATO membership by another 10 years. Well, as said, discuss your wonderful country (which?) without me. Then you have all the time of this world to bring arguments against Tito and against Yugoslavia, if you have some.
        
        Yugoslavia – the Good Old Days of Tito-style Communism
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RRnCnO1Y2c
  - Katherine on February 06, 2016 · at 5:25 pm EST/EDT
    
    SErbian Girl
    “Under Tito, muslims were recognised as “Bosniaks” who could aspire to a separate individual statehood. Previously muslims in Bosnia were either ethnic Serbs or Croats who had converted to Islam during the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans. ”
    
    It seems to me that the conflation with or transformation of a religion into an ethnicity is never a good idea. What are the interests of parties who do this? Muslims come in all colors. Same with Jews. Same with Christians. So why is “jewish” treated as an ethnicityh? Same with Muslim/Islam.
    I mentioned the point made by Serbian Girl on antoher thread, in conneciton with my super and her familiy and their friends in NYC. Ethnic Albanians who lived in the mountains of Montenegro, Muslims, they looked to me like Slavs who had converted to Islam. Light, somewhat sallow skin (not rosy-cheeked), grey eyes, light-brown hair.
    
    Katherine
    - Serbian girl on February 06, 2016 · at 7:08 pm EST/EDT
      
      Katherine,
      That’s a very good question. In the case of the former Yugoslavia most of the Bosnian muslims were in fact ethnic Serbs who were simply of muslim faith. By elevating the Muslims to an ethnicity he divided the Serbian nation. In very simplistic terms it was a sort of “divide and conquer” ploy.
      - Uncle Bob 1 on February 06, 2016 · at 11:06 pm EST/EDT
        
        The Croats say the same,only the reverse. That the Muslims are Croats converted to Islam. Personally I think both sides are right. Only that they were “Slavs” that converted to Islam. At a time when both Croats and Serbs were known to be one people.
        
        Serbian girl on February 06, 2016 · at 11:38 pm EST/EDT
        
        I don’t think so. Croats were mostly part of Austro-Hungary, not Ottoman empire. But there could have been some Muslim Croats.. The operative word in my previous comment is “mostly Serb”.
        
        Uncle Bob 1 on February 07, 2016 · at 12:53 am EST/EDT
        
        We were talking about “who” the Bosnians were at that time.And scholars dispute that.Some say they were ethnically,(whatever that would mean in those days) since Bosnia came under the jurisdiction of the Church of Rome.Then by following the religious example they would be called Croats. But on the other hand,history shows that during the first Slav settlement they were known as Serbs.Also,over the centuries of Ottoman rule many of the Catholic groups (who we “might” call Croat by then) either converted or fled to Croatia. While until later, most of the Orthodox (who we “might” now call Serb) either converted or remained Orthodox. And they were joined over the years by many Orthodox people (Serbs and Vlachs,who became Serb) moving into Bosnia.Enough for Serbs in Bosnia to be around 44% of the population before WWI.With the Croats around 21%. And the Muslims most of the remaining 35%.It was because of the slaughters in the two WW’s and also the moving of many Serbs to new lands in Vojvodina that dropped their population to under the Muslim percentage.Without those things happening the Serbs would have been the largest single group. And its likely Bosnia wouldn’t have been able to breakaway from “Yugoslavia”.
        
        Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 07, 2016 · at 6:31 am EST/EDT
        
        @ Uncle Bob: You are a master of a Historian. Best clues I ever got regarding .YU
        Tnx!
  - boris on February 12, 2016 · at 1:00 pm EST/EDT
    
    My dear sister (if my calling you for my sister doesn’t offend you?!),
    
    I am Bosniak. So were my ancestors. It doesn’t depend on what somebody thinks about it in Belgrade, Zagreb, Washington, Moscow, Istanbul, Riyad or Berlin.
    As it is said in the Ghospel according to Matthew (7:3):
    
    “For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. 3″Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4″Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?…
    
    You call yourself „Serbian girl“. So, you are Serbian. It is your nationality. And we all know that in order to be „a Serb“, one must first and foremost be an orthodox-christian, particularly following the St. Sava’s branch of orthodox-christianity. You must be able to distinguish yourself from Russians, Bulgarians, Greek, Macedonians, etc. If somebody wants to become a Serb – he/she must first become a part of St. Sava orthodox-christian congregation. Your nationhood evolved from your religion and is sustained by your religion.
    
    It is exactly the same process with Croats, who are roman-catholic. It can happen that somebody obtains Croatian citizenship, but the fact is – to be considered a true Croat, one must be roman-catholic.
    And that is how many of former Bosniaks in Bosnia and Herzegovina became Serbs or Croats when Ottomans „got sick“ – by simple belonging to a particular branch of christianity, and amply stimulated by Belgrade and Zagreb.
    Prior to Ottoman conquest of Balkans, the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants of Bosnia belonged to the „Bosnian church“ and called themselves „Bosanski hristjani“. They followed the „Old church“, or the „Early church“. It was the church established by the disciples of Jesus, son of Mary (peace be upon him and his blessed mother), and was and is considered a „heresy“ by both roman-catholics and orthodox-christians. That is why so many of „Bosanski hristjani“ reverted to islam after the Ottoman conquest, as islam was much, much closer to their theology then both of the „christian“ theologies. They didn’t „sell their religion for a lunch“, but remained true to their beliefs. And remained to be Bosniaks. Somebody else did the selling.
    
    I must here correct you. We were never recognized as Bosniaks under Tito. You are wrong. In february 1974. Yugoslavia adopted a set of Constitutional amendments, among which a new nationality was introduced in the country: „Muslims“ (with capital letter M). It was a wrong name forced on Bosniaks, with the intention to label them as nothing but a religious group. It is as if somebody decided to officially call Norwegians as „Protestants“!
    No aliens were involved during the agression on Bosnia and Herzegovina 1992-95, as far as I know. They didn’t abduct „1/3 of the population of Sarajevo who was Serbian Orthodox“, to quote you. Indeed, where are they? We are talking here some 150 000 human beings. Is it so difficult to find their graves in the small patch of land besieged by the serbian armies for 1425 days, pouring on average 329 artillery grenades a day on the town? Tell us, sister, who were those Serbs who shelled the town and who were those Serbs who chose to be shelled on? Maybe we can ask Эдуард Вениаминович Лимонов, russian writer and poet, who also entertained himself by shooting on Sarajevo from the surrounding hills? Or, were they killed by muslims? We manage daily to uncover the hidden mass-graves of Bosniaks killed by the Serbian extremists. Why is it so difficult to find the „mass-graves of the killed Serbs“ in Sarajevo, sister? Are there any? Show us, please. Or, were those people impervious to the bomb-shells, but were driven out by muslims after the war? Do tell…
    
    „There may not be many bearded men visible on the street, but Sarajevo is now a mostly muslim city.“ Those are your words. I disagree. But, there are also many bearded men visible on the streets, sister, particularly in Banja luka, Doboj, Prijedor, Bijeljina, Gradiška, Zvornik, Trebinje – cca half of them are bearded. And those towns are all in Republika Srpska. Are those men muslims or chetniks, sister? Saker is bearded, too…
    This is just illustrating the particular mindset. And nothing can change that. Not even a million of „Serbian Vladimir Putins“. You were never „in bed with Muslims“, sister, if we discount the Ottomans. „Your bed“ has always been meant for you and Croats exclusivelly. The strange and misterious love and friendship between them in todays Bosnia testifies to that. Perfect harmony. Russians know that, too.
    
    We could go on with this for days and wouldn’t come anywhere. What is certain is God Allmighty’s Word:
    „Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: “The Guidance of Allah,- that is the (only) Guidance.” Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.“ (Qur’an 2:120). Or, „Alaha“, as Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, called Him (praised and glorified be He) in his native, aramaic language.
    
    May the peace of God Allmighty be with you!
Oxandabaratz on February 05, 2016 · at 5:11 pm EST/EDT

This is known, but never is too late, and never is too much to remember again, and to take again to issue the great injustice made to the very honourable and struggling Serbian people in the 90es.

Justice for Serbs!
Katherine on February 05, 2016 · at 6:18 pm EST/EDT

Thank you for this detailed report.
The implication seems to be that prior to these “friendly fire” attacks there was some kind of agreemnt between Bosnia Muslims and . . .the USA? … to use this tactic. Is there evidence of t his collusion? Or were the perpetrators acting on their own?

I hope this account receives a wide hearing/reading.
Katherine
Bodin on February 06, 2016 · at 3:26 am EST/EDT

And not just Markale: their snipers were shooting their people in Sarajevo so they could whine, yelp and wail to “punish those bad Serbs” who were “shooting” them. Many Bosnians have later come out and spoke about it, that they (Bosnians Army) were shooting Bosnians civilians in order for Izmetbegovic and co. to ask westerners to bomb the Serbs. There are also mass graves on the shores of Miljacka river in Sarajevo where “good Bosnians” buried their fellow Serb citizens of Sarajevo they had murdered. Such good people they are. Always suffering… always victims… well in that western corporate propaganda stories that is. And they suffer from mass amnesia when their crimes come out, and there is nothing, absolutely nothing they can remember from 70 yrs ago. Not them, not Croats. Croats, for example, now say that Jasenovac is “made up” (I put a short documentary about it in my previous post). According to new Croatian version of history, they Croats were “antifascists.” This is how antifascists “look like” : Hitler’s troops entering Croatian capital Zagreb on 10th April 1941.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JwUgPCgr7Y
Verami on February 06, 2016 · at 5:17 am EST/EDT

A genuine Truth and Reconciliation investigation into the events of the Yugoslav Wars of the 90’s is badly needed.
Unfortunately it’s not likely to happen as it would show the world what a show trial the Hague Tribunal really is and how dishonest and crooked the Western Media’s narrative has been.

An informative analysis of the alleged Srebrenica Massacre here:
http://srebrenica-deconstructed.com/index.htm

Includes a piece by Edward S. Herman, co-author with Noam Chomsky of Manufacturing Consent – The Political Economy of the Mass Media.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Manufacturing-Consent-Political-Economy-Media/dp/0099533111
Martin from S.E.B. on February 06, 2016 · at 1:29 pm EST/EDT

Ok, so let them (ex Yugoslavia) fight this out without me.
Everybody including the communists is bad.
All other religious except theirs are wrong.

Well – heard that a number of times.
It was a mistake I posted at all into a Serbia /Bosnia thread.
t0mekk on February 06, 2016 · at 10:17 pm EST/EDT

Ovu kucku od Amanpour nije niko zaboravio i nikad nece. Ova kravetina je jedna od glavnih krivaca za ljudske zrtve u nasim prelepim prostorima. Bog te kaznio!

I have to translate sorry. I’m Serb, i have a muslim wife and i live in Slovenia,…i’m sorry for language, but this ‘journalist’ amanpour is one of persons which history will judge.

I will translate my first words.

‘This bitch named Amanpour no one did forget and it never will. This cow is one of the ‘guiltiest’ peoples responsible for deaths of human beings on all our beautiful land. Our land Yugoslavia. God will punish you!
- Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 07, 2016 · at 11:03 am EST/EDT
  
  Dobar Dan t0mekk
  
  +1
  
  Most western “journalists” deserve this faith.
  They finally shall get held responsible for their role in the genocide (same everywhere, we see it with Syria, Donbass, Libya etc etc etc).
  
  p.s. The link to the biography about Milosevic is not what I wanted to post (saw it only now).
  What I really meant was: http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/
Basil2 on February 09, 2016 · at 8:03 am EST/EDT

I am sick of those narrow-minded people (chetniks) like Bodin and Serbian girl here ( yes, i know that not all serbs are chetniks but those 2 most certenly are). We’ve got a lot of them on this side of the border (croatia) too. Just under a different flag and they call themselfs ustase. But in the end they are all the same kind of fasists that hate everyone and erverthing. And in the ww ii they worked closely together. They maybe didn’t have same end goals but they did end up fighting for the nazies against partisant. I don’t see a lot of croats in here, but there is quite enough serbs and a lot of them (not all) are alike those 2 previously mentioned. That bothers me a lot. That is one of the reasons I stopped following southfront on fb and watching their reports. They were posting a lot of chetniks photos on their fb page passing them under serbian brother who came to aid their russian orthodox brothers in battle against evil west. As I recall, most of the flags i saw in donetsk in 2014 were sickle and hammer flags, and i would like to remind that the chetniks same as ustashe ( often working together) fought and killed those who wore red star on their uniforms. I do support russia’s side in this russia vs. west conflict and I do think that russian tanks will have to liberate from nazi occupation once more :) same as most of the people here but just because we support the same side doesn’t mean that we are all on the same side. For everyone’s information I am what you can call a yugoslavin “blend” ( father is croat and my mother is serb. yes, a lot of these “ungodly” marriages despised by God and men alike here ) and I am just wondering where are all those “brotherhood and unity” type serb and croats ,born and raised in socialist spirit, that I know and love??? I know they exist. I am a friend with a lot of them on both side of the border. I just don’t see a lot of them on this blog.
- Serbian girl on February 09, 2016 · at 3:42 pm EST/EDT
  
  Basil2,
  If telling people what happened to my family and my country makes me a “fascist” in your eyes then so be it.
  
  Too many things have been swept under the rug!
  
  I realize this makes for uncomfortable reading for some. I admit I make some provocative statements. This has generated interesting knee jerk reactions:
  
  Fyi I have been called everything from “fascist, nazi” to “pro western liberal, Soros shill” “not a real Serb” etc.
  
  If you are truly for unity ( brotherhood is not a sufficient criteria in my opinion but mutual respect and trust are) then why do you not join the discussion.
  
  Attack the arguments not the person.
  - Basil2 on February 09, 2016 · at 6:22 pm EST/EDT
    
    @Serbian girl. I really don’t know that much about war in Bosnia to join the discussion. I know more than most, but still not enough to make arggumented discusion with you guys but i keep myself informed. and I do know a lot about wwii. In any case I do want to attack the person and not argguments because it is the people that bother me. As i said i try to keep myself informed and therefore i read articles like this and what i noticed is a lot of people from serbia with a narrow-minded and one sided view of this whole thing. Yes, i agree that NDH was a nazi ally, that is the fact, and so were the muslim, but you somehow forget to mention that there were also a lot of serbs who put themself in nazi service or have just collaborated. Beside well known chetniks there were also these people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territory_of_the_Military_Commander_in_Serbia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Volunteer_Corps_(World_War_II)
    
    (Now, if you wish for bonus I can make links to some photos of Chetnik dukes and Ustashe officers drinking toghether and killing partisns together. ;) )
    
    And it never crossed my mind to call all serbs nazis, or fasists because of those people, unlike you and bodin here who call all croatians fasists. Directly or indirectly. Also, it seems to me that a lot of serbs here are triying to make a point that the serbs are victims and the rest of us are war criminals and butchers. I think that all of us are victims and all of us are war criminals. :) I’ve met a enough of people similar to you who start learning about history not to really learn about history but rather to prove their original opinion and therefore you can never be objective. All I see is someone who is reciting official serbian propaganda. There was also one bosniak guys who didn try to make his view of the war in bosnia but all i saw was someone reciting official bosniak propaganda. I can surly find few guys from croatia who will come here and recite official croatian propaganda. And none of you proves nothing. I wondered of a bit from my toughts here for a moment. What I wanted to say is that I come to this site because I think that analysis are good and objective, and I share a point of view with a lot of people here. What bothers me is that I see a lot of serbian nationalist here, people who glorify Šešelj ( i don’t know if Šešelj really is a war criminal. they didn’t managed to prove and crimes to him yet but i am sure that he is a sociopat and shoulnd’t be glorified in any case) and Arkan or what not. ( to be clear i don’t like croatian nationalist either and I don’t want to see them on this blog. furtheremore I want to point out that I make a difference between a patriot ( person who loves his own people) and nationalist (a person who just hates some other people). ok, here it is. I wrote a lot but i am not sure did i really said something. If i remember something else i wanted to say i will write it.
    - Basil2 on February 09, 2016 · at 6:42 pm EST/EDT
      
      @Serbian girl
      
      P.S. Fasist, nazi, pro-western liberal, Soros shill is a lot of different words for the same shit. Not making accusations just pointing out. ;)
      - Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 09, 2016 · at 7:06 pm EST/EDT
        
        @ comrade Basil2:
        
        Thanks for your new infos.
        In your previous comment alone you wrote 49 lines.
        And now compare it to what you got back.
        
        That’s then called a “facts based discussion”
        
        Good Luck …
        
        rgds., %martin
  - Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 09, 2016 · at 6:58 pm EST/EDT
    
    Serbian Girl: You should read everything again.
    maybe 5 times.
    
    Learn how to use a precise concrete language (like in Algebra).
    And don’t wildly interpolate until you claim things which never happened.
    
    Equally as much: It is not true that you are just “telling people what happened to my family and my country”.
    
    Less untrue: You attempt to tell people over and over again what you believe is the history of your country. And there we end up in a deep cosmic black hole …
    
    It is a joke if exactly you who boycotted all my (very patient) attempts to discuss true facts are inviting comrade Basil2 to “join the discussion”.
    
    Was that meant as irony?
    Every time I wanted to challenge one of your facts you reacted like a Diva and took it on a flat personal level, while blaming me for allegedly insulting you and then insulting me instead twice as much.
    
    You and your fellow attempted the same with Uncle Bob, bud failed badly.
    Now the game continues all over again with Basil2?
    - Serbian girl on February 09, 2016 · at 7:36 pm EST/EDT
      
      Well done Basil,
      Thank you for leading by example and showing us your “brotherhood and unity” in action.
      
      Martin, re Uncle bob I actually did agree with some of his points. Oh you didn’t read those comments? Maybe you should go back and actually read what I wrote. About 5 times should do the trick.
      - Basil2 on February 09, 2016 · at 9:12 pm EST/EDT
        
        @Serbian girl
        
        You are free to quote any of my comments that was hateful toward serbian people or any other people in general and in exchange i could qoute some of your earlier comments if you wish to do this in that manner. :) All i did try to say that both our nations have high precentage of people who are militant nataionalists. Also high catholic clerics in croatia ( ie kardinal Bozanic) and in serbian orthodox churh ( patriarch Irinej ) are very aggresive nacionalists. I don’t like this kind of people and i don’t want to have anything to do with them. Now, we can sipce our discusion a bit and I could say something like: ” you attacked us first. look at what you did in Vukovar”. Than you can replay : ” but serbian nation was a constitutive nation in croatia according to 1974. yugoslav constitution. look at what you did in Pakračka poljana. we had to defend our own ” . Than I could say again:” but according to that same constitution we had the right to self determination”. I do not want to do that. first of all 1974. constitution was an ill made constitution and it’s legay was war ( tito and kardelj made it like they don’t care what has going to happen after they die). That is why every historian in croatia, serbia and bosnia today advert to that constitution. 2nd, CIA made sure that people who came to power in our contries in end of 1980’s were exactly those nationalist militants i was talking about. Every idiot with an ak-47 had a napkin with a map of division of Bosnia back in those days. I admit that i can’t be fully objective in the matter. but I do try to be as much as i can. you could do the same thing. I just ask you to try to be a bit more objective and look at the other side as well. That is all. Enjoy your evening.
        
        @Martin
        
        Thanks for kind words.
        
        Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 10, 2016 · at 12:31 am EST/EDT
        
        @Basil2: Very very well said.
        And with the CIA you hit the nail on its head.
        Thank you, brother.
        
        @All: Again I offer to conclude this thread in peaceful harmony (as before).
        
        Here is another story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs
        
        “””””Sorbs (Upper Sorbian: Serbja; Lower Sorbian: Serby; also known as Wends, Lusatian Sorbs or Lusatian Serbs) are a Western Slavic people of Central Europe living predominantly in Lusatia, a region on the territory of Germany and Poland. In Germany they live in the states of Brandenburg and Saxony. They traditionally speak the Sorbian languages (Wendish, Lusatian) – closely related[4] to Polish and Czech – officially recognized and protected as a minority language of Germany. Due to a gradual and increasing assimilation between the 17th and 20th centuries, virtually all Sorbs also spoke German by the late 19th century and many of the descendants of Sorbs no longer speak the Sorbian languages. They are predominantly Roman Catholics and Lutherans.
        
        Sorbs are divided into two geographical groups:
        
        Upper Sorbs, who speak Upper Sorbian (about 40,000 people).[5]
        Lower Sorbs, who speak Lower Sorbian (about 20,000 people).[6]
        
        The dialects spoken vary in intelligibility in different areas. Genetic studies have shown Sorbs to be genetically closest to Czechs and Poles.[7] The Sorbs are theorized to have contributed significantly to the Ashkenazi Jewish population of Europe from the 9th century.[8]”””””
        
        Yes, also the last sentence belongs to it.
        
        Now, here is the flag, looks familiar anyone … ???
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs#/media/File:Flag_of_Sorbs.svg
        
        Then, many so called ethnic “Germans” have in fact slavic genes, and vice versa.
        Until 1000 years ago what is now (former) East-Germany / GDR was totally on Slavic lands.
        And when the Germans came the Slavs either continued to live as if nothing had happened or interbreeded this way or vice versa, got assimilated (in bidirectional fruitful manner!).
        Until the late 18 hundreds entire regions remained completely slavophone and with slavic population (some parts until today, bilingual [Sorbs/Serbs/Wends])
        
        Most of the names of settlements in East-Germany have endings like ___ow, such as in Berlin-Pankow, signaling slavic heritage. Some of these names got germanized into ____au (such as Prenzlau). If you dig into the argricultural land I myself found german shards (from about 1300) and Slavic shards (at least 200 yaers older) when I was a child, here in Berlin.
        The rivers, lakes, villages, cities – mostly of Slav origin./ But again, it’s not limited to _things_, but continues with the family names.
        My own family name is more Bohemian aka Chech (although if I try to track my poor ancestors back, everything leads to the German-Russian border aka now Poland).
        
        Yes, let’s put yet more spice into it: The Russians were descendents not alone of Slavs, but only came into existance when Vikings/Germans and Slavs intermixed.
        And early version of Soviet-German friendship so to say!
        
        I hope this will make clear to nationalists on all sides (including German Nazis), that the entire thing is ridiculous and scientifically unsustainable.
        
        When the Sorbs moved from the Caspian Sea or whereever (who knows it so 100%???) not all moved on to the Balkans. Some (even a lot) stayed here in Germany and significantly contributed to the “German” Gene pool. Others stayed in Chechia. And so on and so forth.
      - Martin form S.E.B. on February 09, 2016 · at 10:45 pm EST/EDT
        
        @SG: I apologize many times that I have no clean certified Serbian blood.
        How can I dare to have my own opinion other than being a German SS-man (which must be my role, by the genes)?
        
        Basil2 on February 10, 2016 · at 11:50 am EST/EDT
        
        @ Martin
        
        Thanks for the link. I knew that Luznik serbs exsist, but i haven’t red anything about them until now. Still it is funny to me that all of us are using the same few sources when refering to slavs of old. Constantine Porphyrogenitus and Herodot. Both historians wrote a lot of thing about a lot of people they never met and about a lot of places they never visited. :) Too bad all of our ancestors were illiterate barbarians who didn’t know how to write down their own history. In any case here is a book i can recommend on topic: http://www.amazon.com/Slaveni-U-Davnini-Tomislav-Maretic/dp/1144198321 ( Slavs in the old days ) .
        
        I couldn’t find english pdf version online but using ISBN i am sure that you can find it in the local library. And since the guy who wrote it was Austrian historian i am sure that you could find it in german version as well. If you’ve red De Administrando Imperio this book won’t tell you anything new but it is still a good book and the secnatces are shaped in much more comprehansive manner than those writen by well know Byzantine emperor. And Maretic used same methods you are using to pinpoint the origin of slavic people. Names of places. You are right about the intermix of germans, vikings and russians. When Byzantine emperor Basil II gave (sold) his sister’s hand in marriage to grand duke of Kiev Vladimir, Vladimir sent 6000 viking warriors in return to fight for him. They later became know as Varangian guards and they served as personal bodyguards to the emperor and remained in service to the throne until the end in 1453. It doesn’t prove anything I know, but it is interesting that vikings served in Kiev Russia in those days.
        
        Martin from Soviet East-Berlin on February 10, 2016 · at 12:17 pm EST/EDT
        
        Yeah. Tnx for the Amazon link, will read new books over the summer as I normally do (I know, most people do so during the winter, but that’s one reason more for me to do this in summer).
        
        The whole discussion is something I tried to make clear to Bandera-Nazis in 2008 in the FB groups such as “I love Ukraine” (and 2 other similar ones). At the time I wanted to migrate to Ukraine to my then future wife.
        
        They never wanted to believe me and swore they would want to kill me as soon as they could find me. They called me Hitler-Putin’s KGB agent. And couldn’t even imagine they are really talking to one of their heros, a damn German.
        
        Very sad that such a scenario repeats itself here on our own side.
        Everybody sees it black on white how I stretched my hand for peace and harmony yet another time. But the only response to it came from you (the barbaric Nazi-Croatian haha).
        
        Well, Ultra-nationalism is stupid.
        That’s really the good thing with TheSaker: _He_ knows all this.
        But not all of his readers do.
Gabriella Qualheim on February 29, 2016 · at 12:40 am EST/EDT

I have been absent for a while, but now I remember why I used to love this website. Thanks , I will try and check back more frequently. How frequently you update your website?

http://tinyurl.com/ai6in3si16x