A reader, SunriseState, has recently posted the following question in the comments section: “what would you say is the most optimal Russian strategy vs Poland?“. When I read it I thought “now that is an interesting question indeed!”. Today I will try to answer it, going step by step.
First, a diagnosis.
There is a Polish syndrome. We can ascribe all sorts of causes for it, some will describe the Poles look as heroic victims, others as greedy hyenas, but for our purposes we don’t even need to dwell into history to list a series of symptoms which, when taken together, we could call the “Polish Syndrome”:
- Phobia (hatred and fear) for Russia and everything Russian.
- A strong desire to be “part of the West” (as opposed to an imaginary “despotic Asia”) while in reality having little or nothing in common with the said “West”
- A deep and bitter resentment at having been militarily defeated over and over again and a subsequent hope for a grandiose revanche.
- A deep seated inferiority complex towards both the East and the West as lyrically expressed in the Ukrainian slogan “let us drown the Poles in Russian and Jewish blood!“.
- A dream of finally submitting the Orthodox Church to the Papacy (or, in its latest iteration, to “consecrate Russia to the immaculate heart of Mary“)
- A deep insecurity about itself resulting in a neverending policy of finding external allies, including Hitler, to take on the “big guy”.
- A willingness to say anything and do anything to get the external ally to extend protection, threaten Russia or, even better, participate in a long-awaited “march on Moscow”.
Again, whether this is a result of centuries of Russian oppression, imperialism, violence and persecutions or the result of the Papist ideology makes absolutely no difference for our purposes.
Also, when we look at the various symptoms of our “Polish Syndrome” we immediately see that it is not unique to Poles or Poland – the Ukrainians, especially the western Ukrainians, display all the same characteristics as their Polish neighbors (as do the Balts, but they are too small, weak and irrelevant to be included here). The syndrome we are looking at is therefore not really a “Polish” one, but an East European one, but calling it “East European” would also be incorrect. So, for our purposes, I will simplify and call it the “Pilban Syndrome” (PBS) in honor of the two “great heroes” of the Polish and West Ukrainian nationalists: Jozef Pilsudski and Stepan Bandera.
Second, a prognosis
Friends, the Pilban Syndrome is here to stay. For one thing, we are dealing with a syndrome with deep historical roots. Second, years of Communist rule followed by a sudden collapse of the Soviet Empire gave this syndrome a huge boost. Third, the AngloZionist Empire, especially in its current position of rapid decline, will allocate a great deal of resources to keep the PBS alive and well. Finally, the abject failure of the AngloZionist policies in the Ukraine and the subsequent civil war will probably lead to a break-up of the Ukraine, in one form or another, and that will also greatly contribute to the vitality of the PBS. I would also add that while right now Poland is enjoying a much hoped for “minute of fame” (being useful to the Empire against Russia) this pipe dream will also come crashing down sooner rather than later, and that inevitable collapse with also result in a sharp rise of the PBS. Bottom line is this: the PBS is here to stay and Russians would be naive in the extreme to hope that it will just vanish.
Third, a warning
There is nothing, absolutely nothing which the Russians could do to try to minimize the severity of the PBS. It is absolutely crucial to understand that the PBS is deeply ideological in its nature and causes. To think that some kind of action (short of collective national suicide, of course) would appease those suffering from PBS is delusional. The Ukrainian case, in particular, will show that even if Russians give them loans, credits, favorable trade terms, security guarantees, etc. the Ukrainian nationalists will see that as a devious plan to try to entrap or otherwise deceive the Ukrainians. If tomorrow the Kremlin decided to send truckloads of gold to the Ukraine or Poland, they would accept it, of course, but as soon as the last truck crossed the border the Polish and Ukrainian nationalists would resume their usual mantras about “Poland/the Ukraine not perishing yet” (they both have these paranoid words in their essentially similar national anthems) along with their usual policies.
Fourth, the big question
The big question is this: how do you deal with such hate-filled lunatics when they are your neighbors? From a Russian point of view, these neighbors are constantly shifting their position on a spectrum roughly ranging between “minor pain in the ass” to “existential threat”, so this is nothing trivial. If history has taught the Russians anything is that every single time Russia was weak the Poles invaded. Every time. The Ukrainian case is very different, since there never was any “Ukrainian state” in history. However, since the Ukrainian nationalists display exactly the same PBS symptoms as their Polish brothers, we can assume that they too will wait for Russia to be weak (for whatever reason) to attack; in fact, the current *official* statements of the leaders of the Nazi junta in Kiev more or less promise to do exactly that). Russia has tried all sorts of strategies with Poland, ranging from outright partitioning, to the granting of special rights, to a naive hope that a common stance against Nazi Germany would yield some degree of, if not brotherhood, then at least civil neighborly relations. They all failed. Clearly, a new approach is needed.
Fifth, the obvious solution
Okay so we have established that the PBS is incurable, that it is here to stay, that the Russians cannot meaningfully affect it and that past policies have all failed. So what does that leave? It leaves one obvious solution:
Do nothing. Have no policy. Give up. Ignore them. Bypass them.
The first principle of medicine is “above all do no harm”. I will argue here that any Russian policy towards PBS suffering states will do harm and only make things worse. However, doing absolutely nothing will yield huge advantages for Russia. Think of it. Doing nothing
- Gives the Polish and Ukrainian nationalists the least excuses to focus on an imaginary external threat and forces them to have to look inside, at their own internal problems. Considering that we are dealing hate-filled ideologues and deluded politicians, they will all turn on each other like rats in a cage.
- Makes it possible for Russia to combine a pragmatically efficient stance with a morally correct one: no matter how hate filled and delusional Polish and Ukrainian nationalists are, it is not for Russians to judge them, educate them or otherwise deny them their freedom to live in whatever manner they choose to. Let them build the society they want, let them keep on barking at Russia like a small dog would do behind the “NATO fence”, and let them pursue their “western dream” to their heart’s content.
- Makes it possible for Russia to allocate much needed resources where it matters, where Russian money, sweat and blood can yield a real return on investment. Ignoring the PBS-states will initially cost Russia some money, true, but in the mid-to-long term it will save Russian billions of Rubles.
However, when I say “do nothing” I refer only to policies which actually involve expectations that if Russia does “X” the Polish or Ukrainian nationalists will do “Y”. An example such mistaken policies would be to expect the Poles to buy Russian LNG gas if Russia offers better prices. It ain’t gonna happen – give it up, Vlad!
What Russia must do, as a condition of the “do nothing” policy, is to craft a new policy towards PBS states composed exclusively of unilateral actions. What do I mean by that?
First, Russia must secure her own security in military, economic and political terms. Russians must look at PBS states the way the Dutch look at the North Sea: they know that if their dams break, the waters of the North Sea will immediately break and submerge a large part of the Dutch territory. Dutch flood control never assumes that the waters of the North Sea will act differently, that somehow they could be convinced to not flood. No, for the Dutch it is simple to the extreme: if our levees break, the North Sea will flood us. And, here is the key, the Dutch don’t resent the North Sea for that. Same for Russians: they should not resent the Polish or Ukrainian nationalists, they just need to make darn sure that the Russian levees (the Russian armed forces) don’t break, that’s all.
Second, Russia must completely de-couple her economy from any PBS state. Yes, this is also what the nationalists want. So let’s give it to them! Let’s bring the Russian trade and investment into PBS states to exactly zero. Modern technologies make it very simple to bypass these countries and the North Stream is the best proof that Russia and Germany can do business together without involving the crazies between them. To those who would say that this sounds extreme, I would reply that if Russia had not allowed Polish Air Force Tu-154 to fly to Smolensk all the crazy shit we witness today would not have happened. Why interact with somebody who will always blame you for everything? This makes no sense. I would even withdraw Russian representations from these countries and kick their diplomats out of Russia (have the Swiss to be the representatives, like the USA with Iran or Cuba). Why? Because if tomorrow the Polish ambassador to Moscow is killed while crossing at a dangerous intersection or slips in his bath tub, the Poles will immediately declare that the “KGB” (does not exist since 1991 but nevermind that) has killed him. Who needs this kind of crap? Nobody I think. So I say decouple everything which can possibly be de-coupled, give the nationalists their dream and let Russia enjoy some much needed peace and quiet on her western borders.
Third, keep non-governmental ties open. Cultural ties, small business kind of trade, tourism, etc. There is no need to build any walls (besides, the Ukrainians and Latvians are already doing that, if not very effectively), or be nasty in any way to the regular Poles or Ukrainians. If on the government level Russia should always maintain a “thanks, but we are not interested” stance, on the human level Russia should remain open and welcoming to the Polish and Ukrainian people. The truth is that there are still some mentally sane Poles and Ukrainians who clearly see through the ideological nonsense of their leaders and who far from being russophobic often have a real appreciation for things Russian. Why make them pay for the behavior of their leaders? Russia would be much better off trying to do her utmost to make these people feel welcome in Russia and to show that her stance towards the PBS infected nationalists does not extend to mentally sane people. However, Russia also needs to stop pretending that all is well and for that she needs to officially declare that henceforth her policy towards PBS-regimes will be no policy at all.
Conclusion
I think that what I am suggesting is simple, straightforward, cheap, safe, morally correct and eminently doable. Yes, of course, to some degree this will be undiplomatic since it will require to officially acknowledge that Russia does not want to deal with PBS-infected regimes at all. Since I am not a diplomat (thank God!) I can say something here which Russian diplomats really cannot: most Russian feel a deep sense of disgust and contempt for the Polish and Ukrainian nationalists and it is high time that Russian diplomat and decision makers stop pretending otherwise.
For centuries the Russian leaders have always looked at the West as the most important strategic direction and that is understandable as objective geographic and economic factors of that time made the West far more important than the South or the East (and nevermind the North). But this is changing right now, very rapidly. In truth, both the EU and the US are increasingly becoming irrelevant to Russia whose future is in the South, the East and even the North. The good news is that Putin and his key ministers all see this (and this is why, unlike what we saw in the West, for Russia the big events of the G20 was Putin’s meeting with Xi). Central Asia, the Middle-East, the Indian sub-continent, China, Siberia and the Arctic – these are the regions were the future of Russia will be decided and where Russian is investing most of her human and material resources. One thing the Ukrainian nationalists are absolutely correct about: while geographically located in what is considered “Europe” the Russian nation (as opposed to the Russian ruling elites) is much closer to her neighbors in the South and East than to the so-called “West”. It is high time for the Russian people to return to their real, historical, home: the immense Eurasian landmass.
If we look at the internal components of the AngloZionist Empire, then we can see that for Russia the USA will continue to matter the most, then the European Union, but already much less, and then the PBS-states which are basically irrelevant to Russia. Russia can therefore *easily* afford to comprehensively ignore the PBS-states as long as she keeps her military strong enough to deal with any possible attack or military provocation coming from the West (which the Russian military can easily do).
One more thing: it is a sad reality that the USA are becoming more and more PBS-infected, courtesy of the Neocons and their visceral russophobia (UN Nikki has just declared ““we can’t trust Russia and we won’t ever trust Russia.”). Clearly, the USA is no Poland and Russia cannot afford to simply ignore them. But as long as this is done carefully, progressively and, above all, quietly, Russia can, and should, begin decoupling herself not only from the USA as such, but from the entire US-controlled international financial system moving her assets and investments towards the obvious alternative: China and the rest of the Eurasian landmass.
In conclusion, I will say that what I outline above is what I think is already happening before your eyes. Not as much as I wish, not as fast as I wish, but it is happening, the fastest with the Ukraine, the slowest with the USA. But it is happening. And thank God for that!
The Saker
IMPORTANT NOTE: When I speak of the Ukraine, I am referring only to the Nazi-occupied Ukraine, not Novorussia or Crimea. Those I consider as Russian people and land.
Saker,
You truly nail this topic.
I agree. Turn Russia inward to Eurasia.
Moon the West’s vassals.
And I love the idea of breaking off all arrangements with these brain-numbed partners who would have been liquidated if not for the sacrifices of 600,000 Russian soldiers saving their stained asses.
A strong breeze of fresh air is needed to blow the stench of Poland and Ukraine off the Russian atmosphere.
The outcome for them will be what is happening to the Baltic economies and Ukraine’s.
Great piece. Enjoyed it immensely.
THANK YOU SAKER!
I hope you are keeping some of those donated bitcoins as a long term investment ;)
In response to the last part of your article:
Putin met recently with Vitalik Buterin, the Ethereum co-founder, which is now the #2 cryptocurrency just behind Bitcoin.
I think Mr. Putin, of all people, can understand the usefulness of decentralized cryptocurrencies in decoupling from the legacy financial systems. There is some buzz that Russia may be developing their own nationalized virtual currency.
Maybe it’s not that important, but it is one part of the puzzle. These developments are interesting, to say the least.
Financial moves are very important, I follow as closely as I can.
When Russia, China and others can ignore the buck all hell may brake loose.
Many wars have started over currencies.
Cryptocurrencies are part of the problem and – no matter what – an(other) outrageous scam, as bad, if not worse, as ‘money’ made out of thin air by the Nazi Roth-child mob and its Nazi BIS, such as British pound, dollar and euro.
I’m forced to say that (very good Russian intellectual) Nikolai Starikov’s arguments against cryptocurrencies are 100% watertight: https://youtu.be/4F89zKhUu1s (Inessa S)
There lies another problem where without being talked about and debate on it @ the U.N ,suddenly this Bitcoin appears online. Why the secrecy? If all are using this cryptocurrency, there should have been announcement in the first place. I think there is some shady thing going on with the Bitcoin, once again it is a currency that is controlled and create many followers. The value of this Bitcoin had reached already in billions. Right now the creators want to hook people on it like the dollar until they do something to control you with it. I don’t understand, why don’t people question the motive and idea behind it before even purchasing it? They have alreadystarted to normalize it.
I have read a number of looooong articles about Bitcoin.
Including one that had masses of info on “block chains.”
And I still don’t “get” it–what it is and who or what gives it value.
Nor how it increases in value.
I am sure that the problem is in me.
But maybe I am not the only one with this problem.
Katherine
Like any fiat currency, cryptocurrencies are “matrialized” faith in their liquidity
And they use slowly-suppressed Ponzi to bootstrap.
Or not so slowly….
https://medium.com/@WhalePanda/i-was-wrong-about-ethereum-804c9a906d36
Indeed, someone’s believe that he alwayscan sell his BitCoint for dollars in some virtual exchange is hardly fundamentally different that one can sell his dollars for bread in grocery.
Katherine –
As per mod’s request (below) I just want you to know my response to this comment will be in the cafe.
(Thanks for joining this community and for your consistently excellent comments.)
Thanks for the info on Nikolai Starikov–some of my concerns about cryptocurrencies are reflected in the comments section for that “Youtube” piece. Folks are talking about “huge” increases in the “value” of Bitcoin,–meanwhile over the years we have all experienced insane levels of inflation in the “value” of real estate, stocks, & costs of college educations, and very basic things like food and medical expenses. Looking at the majority of people worldwide, I wonder what percentage of us/them would truly be able to benefit from these currencies, especially the good people in ten different war zones who do not know where their next meal is coming from. I fear that this latest craze is certainly not immune to over inflated values, either, and can just as easily be sucked dry by the rising costs/situations just mentioned. In the mean time, massive debts at the state and federal level have created huge financial black holes–in many states the underfunded pension liabilities are catastrophic. Things like this are completely robbing the people of their ability to escape the inevitable day of reckoning.
Cryptocurrencies like BitCoin and Etherium are here to stay and will, over the next years and decades, expand a hundredfold.
But the block-chain technology is so novel a concept, that for the uninitiated it is almost impossible – even after some research and study – to figure out what the whole excitement is all about – even at the most basic level.
Currencies might actually not be the most important application of block-chain technology’s potential. An even a bigger, and more life-changing, sector could be ‘automated contracts’, an area Etherium is designed for.
Take a will for example. After your death you want A, B and C to be paid monthly allowances till their 20th birthday. Without interference of state, lawyers, etc. you encode your will into the block-chain, that will execute your contract autonomously.
This conversationis going off-topic – please take to the MFC. Mod
> Take a will for example. After your death you want A, B and C
> to be paid monthly allowances till their 20th birthday
Good example.
And then B marries Vitalik Buterin and he pushes yet another TheDAO:
“In the name of decentralized nature of Etherium and of unstoppable nature of Smart Contracts i hereby decree that all contents of all Chad’s wallets be transfered to mrs.B and all transactions from Chad’s wallet to A and C were wiped from ETH blockchain history as never ever existing”.
Owning a large amount of laundry soap and canned tuna fish makes more sense to me. Having been through several market crashes,I find this one to be the most sophisticated scam yet.
People will always see value in soap and tuna fish. Virtual whatever is just that–virtual.
“Owning a large amount of laundry soap and canned tuna fish makes more sense to me.”
Exactly! And refilleable lighters, ammunition, water filters, toilet paper, etc. will be worth their weight in gold… On the contrary, blockchain currency will be as good as worthless because dependent on the availability of electricity, a working telco/inet network, functioning servers, your terminal (smartphone/PC/tablet), etc., etc. One good NEMP or corronal mass ejection (CME) can make all of these necessities unserviceable for the next decennia. Oops! Rien ne va plus, your money is no longer available.
that person does not understand a bit about crypto currencies. Yes, it is perhaps a scam and certainly dangerous to put your life savings on but in reality it is not a currency but rather an asset just like any other securities people buy and sell. It is just that it is a lot less secure and much more vulnerable to manipulation even by small fish.
> Putin met recently with Vitalik Buterin
Wow! That is damn news for me.
Etherium is NOT a cryptocurrency. Would it be, it would be not any more than one more to the hundred of wannabe-Bitcoins!
1. Etherium is a proposal for a totally-automatic financial legislation/framework. Legal/financial contract is a computer program for some special virtual processor. No judges, no lawyers, no trials.
2. Yes, that means Etherium is also containing some yet-another-coin as its BYPRODUCT. But one should not mistake byproducts for essence.
3. That also recently fueled almost religious schism between two Etherium communities. Huge cryptocurrency exchanges, primary sponsors of Etherium coin-verse, made a mistake when programming their contracts. Which meant they were bleeding by some weaselly guy for few days until they saw it and stopped the contracts from running.
4. Then they demanded Vitalik Buterin would roll-back all the universe for few days backwards and then change the financial processors so their way of programming contracts would not be flawed. Or they go away and pull their funds and support out of ETH
5. While the complains about the legal processor being too techie, too dependent on low-level conditions, thus making programming above-trivial financial contracts very error-prone, were valid, the question if it means the financial/legal transaction can be retroactively undone is very touchy.
6. Many SOHO users told that Big Players could and should have afforded the,selves good programmers. And that bailing them out means taxing “good market actors” for mistake of “too big to fail” bad actors.
7. Many users also said that the promise of ETH was non-biased corruption-less legislation, based on fixed and published processor architecture. System, where human can override the already committed contracts code and retroactively impose non-programmed outcome over it, is not much different form real world trials and judges. If ETH does not want to maintain the promised warranty of human-less no-bias processing, then it defeats its whole reason of existing.
8. Those concerns made a number of early adopters continue “true Etherium”, the blockchain fork which did not follow official “universal rollback” event and went on as it was.
9. Which of blockchains would suffer, if any, remains to be seen.
Hats off, Saker; you’ve nailed it superbly!
What’s pretty damn funny about the honorary Euro-trash such as Psheks and Ukros is this: They’re so full of themselves and their Europeanness that they don’t (or, rather, refuse to) see that they won’t be spared the demographic shifts brought about by imperialist wars abroad and open borders at home either. So the conclusion arrived at in the above piece is 100% correct: Russia shouldn’t do anything about these execrable cesspits; leave that to Soros and the globalists. The bonus of enjoying the psychotic “Pilban” noises about Soros being a Putin agent is simply too great to be ignored!
Also from my side my respect for this excellent analysis (and good advise), Saker.
@Nussiminen:
I can largely agree with you, but those ‘open borders’ problems are exactly where Poland, together with Hungary, Czechia and Slovakia (the Visegrad nations) is firmly resisting the Brussel dictates.
They just don’t want the immigrants. I grant them wisdom in this point of view.
To get a view of what immigrant areas in France look like, see this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siJ2SIAbRYM
(Good luck with ‘fixing’ that, new Roman God Emmanuel Macron).
@Rob:
Very true — they don’t want the immigrants. Accommodating substantial numbers of Third world people and/or Muslims would mean instant death to the delusions of European brotherhood and aspirations to First World decadence prevalent among the Pilban specimina.
As Churchill correctly noted, the Poles are greedy hyenas. Their silly excuse of a country doesn’t accommodate any refugees but very happily lives off EU taxpayers’ money to keep up appearances. This won’t last for long. Gownopolska is already in a process of depopulation (understandably enough). So immigration will settle the Pilban problem in Gownopolska.
I refer to Poland as a pile of vomit on the map of Europe. They just cannot help being the most despicable, dishonest, prostituting, full of hate and imagined delusional “greatness” garbage, mascarading as a “nation”. Just like with the Western Ukraine, both were supported and greatly helped by Russia over the centuries, but all the efforts as you have rightly pointed out, were a complete waste. Because one is dealing with the actual human waste. It most have been some defective gene in their gene pool to produce this king of garbage, considering that they all seem to concentrate in one particular area of Eastern Europe!
Certainly extreme thinking on Poland. As Saker says there is a lot wrong with their thinking about Russia. But “dissing” an entire people like that.Smacks too much of the type of thing we see from the Russophobes for me.
You might want to read this – http://zinovievclub.com/main/20160311/18489.html
for some edification on the matter of Poles (elites, perhaps). One could try to agree with you – under normal circumstances – but the Polish elite seems to me different. I think Saker described the situation fairly – as this reality is quite harsh. (Also, note that in 1938, when Czechoslovakia was divided by Hitler, Poles took the opportunity to steal a chunk of its real-estate.)
Thus illustrating that beautiful German proverb:
Heute gestohlen,
Morgen in Polen
Moreover, I never thought I’d agree with a Western genocidalist and psychopath such as Churchill about anything whatsoever, but he did get the Polish national trait absolutely correct.
I for one would rather deal with Poles than these people who Churchill describe in the days when he did not need to watch what he wrote,
“Terrorist Jews
There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution, by these international and for the most part atheistical Jews, it is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish leaders. Thus Tchitcherin, a pure Russian, is eclipsed by his nominal subordinate Litvinoff, and the influence of Russians like Bukharin or Lunacharski cannot be compared with the power of Trotsky, or of Zinovieff, the Dictator of the Red Citadel (Petrograd) or of Krassin or Radek — all Jews. In the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is even more astonishing. And the prominent, if not indeed the principal, part in the system of terrorism applied by the Extraordinary Commissions for Combating Counter-Revolution has been taken by Jews, and in some notable cases by Jewesses. The same evil prominence was obtained by Jews in the brief period of terror during which Bela Kun ruled in Hungary. The same phenomenon has been presented in Germany (especially in Bavaria), so far as this madness has been allowed to prey upon the temporary prostration of the German people. Although in all these countries there are many non-Jews every whit as bad as the worst of the Jewish revolutionaries, the part played by the latter in proportion to their numbers in the population is astonishing.”
http://www.fpp.co.uk/bookchapters/WSC/WSCwrote1920.html
I had a look at this link —-> http://zinovievclub.com/main/20160311/18489.html
and focused on this text,
““When I gained consciousness, I saw one of the legionaries holding my wallet. He took out the money, and threw the wallet under the stable. I was covered with blood, without boots or a coat, my jacket was torn apart, and my cap gone. I moaned. One of the legionaries cocked his pistol and was ready to shoot me, but was prevented from doing so by someone who cried in Polish: Don’t shoot, he’s an officer…”
Here, have a look at the civilized behavior of the US Army,
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2085872/Urination-video-4-US-Marines-charged-hours.html
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27738.htm
The article seems to imply that those dastardly Poles didn’t go to Wal-Mart-Poland and buy food to feed the poor “enemies they captured” and interned in camps. That is terrible. The civilized form of holding “enemies” in that era and today is to house them in hotels but just horrible Poles just wouldn’t do it. Well I have news for the reader, WWI ended and all these lands were in ruin and in deep poverty. Suddenly you get a lot of people in one place and you are to instantaneously provide for them in such conditions ? Give me a break.
Next,
“With such practices, food and regulations, it is hardly surprising that up to thirty people died every day.”
The fact that the Poles held off on improving the situation in the camps was confirmed by Professor Madsen, a member of a League of Nations commission who visited the Wadowice camp more than one year later, in November 1920. Madsen called this camp “one of the most horrible things he has ever seen in life.””
OK I found one report on this here situation —-> http://leesmuseum.bibliotheekarnhem.nl/Books/mp-pdf-bestanden/LM08000-160.pdf
A letter dated 21 Aug. 1920 from no less then Lord A.J. Balfour, found on page 15 of the PDF file,
“In Russia the disease seems to be epidemic. An eminent doctor who has just returned from that country says that it has been swept from end to end by typhus; that scarcely a town or village has escaped; and that half the doctors engaged in combating the plague have died. His statement, terrible though it be, is confirmed by other witnesses.
From this vast centre of infection the disease is carried westward by an unceasing stream of immigrants. Prisoners returning to their homes, refugees flying for safety, crowd the railways.”
Not Eastward but Westward !!!! I wonder why ?
“Two millions of these unfortunate persons have passed the Polish Disinfection Stations since the armistice, and doubtless many more have entered Poland without being subject to
medical examination. They are pouring into a country in parts already overcrowded, where every circumstance—material and moral—combines to favour the spread of infection”
Well if that does not made the picture clearer then I don’t know what will. Is typhus, poverty, lack of food etc. Poland’s fault ? Thanks Zinoviev Club for doing Your Best to set the story straight for people who read your website.
The other zinger in the Zinoviev Club article and so popular all over the world in the XXI Century no less is the phrase ” Polish death camps”. Yes, Poles organized them during WWi and II to kill Jews, Russians, Gypsies, Gays and if they could the rest of the Planet. They invented this devilish method themselves while in a drunken stupor.
I just love how easy it is to destroy some of this stuff.
The Polish POW camps where Red Army soldiers were held had a 40% death rate. This was similar to the death rate in German concentration camps in WW2, which Poland routinely refers to as death camps.
They will be very soon on the breadline…dissing DE and RUS while prostituting themselves to the US…won’t help in the new political set up in Europe. Completely different from CZ where there are no signs of historical schizophrenia and where pragmatism rules above being liked by the US/Anglo Zionists…
Hard times to come for Poland (let them buy expensive US gas), Latvia (nothing going on for them apart from RUS tourists and sex tourism), and Lithuania (wannabe Ukronazis)…they will be left to sober up by the US administration as US-RUS relations are much more valuable than Baltic-originated anti-RUS propaganda.
Saker,
I’ve read some of P’s diplomatic stuff, he was an incredibly stupid and gullible specimen. He believed Britain when they told him: “go ahead and start conflict, we have your back.”
Sound familiar?
” ‘Polish Documents Relative to the Origin of the War. Berlin 1940. Auswartiges Amt'”
Have you read these ? Once upon a time in the West you could directly access the pdf files on Web Archive (5 yrs ago). No more. You need to go to the library now.
A very interesting character who was in the background of Polish diplomacy before WW II was this man, Anatol Mühlstein. I’m sure he was involved in producing those “”… incredibly stupid and gullible specimen”. Strangely enough making his career during dictatorial rule of “hero of the nation” Pilsudski.
“Born to a Jewish family in Warsaw, he studied in Geneva, Paris, and Brussels. In 1932, Mühlstein married Diane de Rothschild, daughter of French banker Robert de Rothschild.[3] The couple had three daughters: Nathalie, Anka, and Cecile.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatol_M%C3%BChlstein
He was such a great diplomat that he married the daughter of Robert de Rothschild. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence because it doesn’t take much to marry into that circle.
From a different barrel but never the less seving to make the point of how Poles make lasting impressions on their country we have the case of a Brit called Sir Lewis Bernstein Namier . He is responsible for SINGLE HANDEDLY changing th Curzon Line resulting in Poland losing Lwow after WWII.
Who was he ?
“Sir Lewis Bernstein Namier (/ˈneɪmɪər/;[1] 27 June 1888 – 19 August 1960) was a British historian of Polish-Jewish background. His best-known works were The Structure of Politics at the Accession of George III (1929), England in the Age of the American Revolution (1930) and the History of Parliament series (begun 1940) he edited later in his life with John Brooke.”
So was he Polish or was he Jewish? I am confused.
“Namier served as professor at the University of Manchester from 1931 until his retirement in 1953, having been loudly cheered by his students at the conclusion of his last lecture there on European History. Namier remained active in various Zionist groups (in particular, lobbying the British government to allow the creation of what he called a Jewish Fighting Force in the Mandate of Palestine) and from 1933 was engaged in efforts on behalf of Jewish refugees from Germany.
He was married twice and knighted in 1952 at the onset of Cold War. Also in 1952, Namier was given the honour of delivering the Romanes Lecture, on which subject Namier chose Monarchy and the Party System. Although Namier was well known for his conservative political views, his principal protégé was the left-wing historian A. J. P. Taylor.”
http://wikivisually.com/wiki/Lewis_Bernstein_Namier
Poland must be proud of one of their “heroes” in Great Britain.
Wonderful correct analysis and recommendations” do nothing! Including the US! Nikki Haley, the US hopeless United Nations Representative, is mentioned as representative of all those American who must simply be avoided. A must read, by the Saker? I too enjoyed it immensely.
Spot on, Saker, really spot on. Having personally seen/heard PBS, 24 February 2014, 09:00, live interview of Yarush and Tyagnibok on Channel 5 Kiev, Poroshenko’s toy: ‘We will make the streets of Sevastopol run red with blood, we will kill every Russian there and burn that stinking city to the ground”, I take a slightly different view of thems that has PBS (It’s a grin, by the by, to know that acronym fits an organization in US that has been spoon fed for decades by DC), IOW you want a piece of me/us, come get it. Pack your lunch and bring your friends, lots of ’em, the more the merrier.
In my somewhat not terribly important thoughts, wall them off and be done with them. Let them stew in their own juices and pay ungodly money for heat in winter and fertilizer for the spring crops.
If you want to see what they are really like, look up what I and my comrade Juan wrote in ’14 about the refugees amongst other odds and ends.
Auslander
Author
Never The Last One http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ZGCY8KK A deep view of Russian Culture.
An Incident On Simonka, NATO Is Invited To Leave https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ERKH3IU
Saker,
I agree 100%, and this is the exact policy that I think is unfolding in the Baltic statelets right before our eyes. The Russians are just quetly taking their transit and business elsewhere, making the message very clear: “russophobia is expensive”. It seems to happen faster in the Baltic, and many people cannot wait to see the same kind of approach in Ukraine and Poland.
As the old Russian saying goes, “насильно мил не будешь” – you cannot be liked by force.
There are more Poles in Poland who are with Russia than most realize. And ever once in a while they appear in the MSM. This is rare because ANY friendship toward Russia must be silenced and in the main it is done very well.
“In 2015, when the Night Wolves were planning to celebrate the “Victory Day” — victory over the Nazi Germany in the “Great Patriotic War” — on May 9 with a trip from Moscow to Berlin, the government of Poland refused them entry due to the club members’ active support of Putin, and Germany cancelled the bikers’ Schengen visas.[28][29] On their way to Berlin, despite visa issues, Night Wolves commemorated the deaths of Polish officers murdered by NKVD in Katyn by lighting candles in their name on 26 April,[30] although Night Wolves and their leader are outspoken supporters of Joseph Stalin, who ordered the murders.[14]
A Polish motocyclists’ organization calling itself the Katyń Motocycle Raid (KMR) criticized the ban and said that Night Wolves already made two such trips in the past, and Polish public opinion was divided on the decision, with 38.7% supporting it and 28.5% opposing.[31] After the ban, the KMR declared that it would light candles on the graves of fallen Red Army soldiers in the name of the Night Wolves.[32] Families of the Katyń massacre’s victims stated that they did not wish to be associated with the KMR.[33]
Bikers who wanted to enter Germany at the Berlin Schönefeld International Airport were denied entry.[34] On 6 May, one member, who was trying to enter Germany by ship from Helsinki to Travemünde, was deported to Finland.[35]”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Wolves#Germany_and_Poland
Now why in the hell would the world famous Alexandrov Choir be coming to Warsaw when the Poles hate Russians ?
http://www.ticketpro.pl/public/5/8/fc/2108748_1381336__600x600__1_.jpg
http://warsawcitybreak.com/events/alexandrov-choir-concert/
http://www.ticketpro.pl/artist/658348-chor-alexandrowa.html
So gov. policy is the work of the V Column working with the Anglo-Zionists.
I totally agree with you on Poland and the US. But not totally on Ukraine. Western Ukraine,yes.But Novorossian “Ukraine” is a separate matter. And it would be a real problem for Russia if ignoring Ukraine hastened Ukraine becoming a part of NATO. Which if Novorossia was still attached to “Ukraine”. Would mean NATO missiles close to Moscow. And all the North from Crimea being under NATO control.It would also be a threat to Belarus geographically. No,either Ukraine needs to return to her brotherhood with Russia. Or it needs to be split up,and the more pro-Russian regions separated from the anti-Russian areas into a new state,or in reunion with Russia.And then the “rump Ukraine” can be as you advocate,ignored.
When I speak of the Ukraine, I am referring only to the Nazi occupied Ukraine, not Novorussia or Crimea. Those I consider as Russian people and land.
Sorry if I did not make that unambiguously clear.
I will add a note at the bottom of the article.
Cheers,
The Saker
Crimea is not the Ukraine, si RF.
Novorussia is not the Ukraine either :-P
U Kraina – on the borderlands.
“Слово оукраина существовало со времён Киевской Руси — как минимум, с XII века. Впервые упоминается в Ипатьевской летописи под 1187 годом в связи со смертью в Переяславской земле князя Владимира Глебовича («о нем же ѹкраина много постона»), позднее — в летописях 1189 и 1213 годов (Галицко-Волынская летопись). Эти упоминания относились к окраинным территориям Переяславского (Посульская оборонительная линия[11]), Галицкого и Волынского княжеств. С того времени и почти до XVIII века в письменных источниках это слово употреблялось в значении «пограничные земли», без привязки к какому-либо определённому региону с чёткими границами[12]:183[13], в том числе и далеко за пределами территории современной Украины, к примеру «псковская украина», «окская украина»[14].”
You’ve certainly changed your tune, Uncle Bob.
“[Ukraine] needs to be split up,and the more pro-Russian regions separated from the anti-Russian areas into a new state,or in reunion with Russia”
What happened to your idea of one slavic blood, one DNA, one people all living together or whatever it was? Anyways, it’s good to see you’ve seen the light.
I still “ideally” think that way. But the more time that passes the harder it becomes. The propaganda becomes more destructive as time goes by. A good example was earlier in Ukraine. Before the fall of Imperial Russia most people there considered themselves as “regional” Russians. Those that wanted separation were a small minority. But then the Bolsheviks pandered to minority nationalism in the USSR. And made a separate SSR for Ukraine. They (at first) almost banned Russian. And pushed for people there to think of themselves as “Ukrainians”. Even undoing the centuries of being “Russian” in Novorossian areas. Then when Ukraine became “independent”,the ultra-nationalists pushed that even further and used the educational system to impose a West Ukrainian dialect as the state language. Basically,forcing 70% of the population to adopt another dialect as their state language. Now after maidan its even worse. And they intend to totally do away with any connection with their own people (Russians in Russia). If that had been stopped and rolled back in 2014 it would be different. But the greater the propaganda grows the more the separation grows. It may not be possible to recover all that was lost. So I say save “first” what you can (Novorossia). And then worry over the remainder.
From a Taoist point of view, consciously doing “nothing” IS doing something … i.e. the doing in this case is refraining from action. Same with saying “nothing”, which can be quite an effective tactic.
Also according to taoism and the dual nature of all things (yin yang), the only way to eliminate something is to let it expand. Once it reaches its peak, it starts to turn into its opposite.
Maybe it’s time to leave these toxic ideologies to burn themselves out completely.
Another way of expressing this basic idea:
You can’t change other people; only yourself.
Which is also why it generally or at least very often makes sense to “walk away from a fight.”
Katherine
But when your enemie/s are absolutely crazy, and have shown time and again they will do anything they can you make you kneel, and accept domination and become essentially a vassalage of theirs. You cant simply ‘walk away from a fight’.
As one smart General said once ‘if your on the defensive, the best thing you can hope for is a tie/stalemate’.
I believe Russia goes to town when need be, like the Chechen wars, Georgia, Syria, taking back Crimea. All conspiracies hatched against Russia and/or her allies.
Once in a while, ‘ you got to pick up something really heavy and wave it around, so the Anglo-West knows you mean business. Anything else would be seen as a sign of weakness. Russia is in a struggle for her very cohesive existence. Russia knowns what ‘ perceived weakness’ has meant for her in her past. That’s why they test-fire a heavy payload ICBM once in a while, and unveil new weapons platforms at international arms exhibits.
Also, correctly, they have demonstrated to the world that their Aerospace Forces are elite if not the best (with what they have) in the world.
So yea, Russia needs to take something heavy and throw it against the wall to reiterate herself lest someone assumes weakness.
Cheers.
I assume we can include Zionism as one , if not the most dangerous toxic ideology.
While I would agree in doing nothing towards Ukraine and Poland and no waste efforts to take along with these hostile and extremist regimes, I do not agree in that Russia must just turn to Eurasia only and give the back to Europe, since I very doubt is in the plans of the Russian administration to break ties with Europe, especially when Europe is turning towards Russia in an awaking exercise so amazing as the vertiginous acceleration trascendence of the Empire is happening.
As illustration of my point, some graphics of global survey on global attitudes and trends:
http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/06/26/u-s-image-suffers-as-publics-around-world-question-trumps-leadership/pg_2017-06-26-us_image-01-7/
http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/06/26/u-s-image-suffers-as-publics-around-world-question-trumps-leadership/pg_2017-06-26-us_image-01-9/
http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/06/26/u-s-image-suffers-as-publics-around-world-question-trumps-leadership/pg_2017-06-26-us_image-02-0/
Dear The Saker,
Thank you for this piece – as the saying goes the PBS is like “flogging a dead horse”. They will never change.
I agree detach from Poland, Balts and Ukronazi Ukraine in everyway except for those non-Russophobic everyday people. Leave them to wallow in their hatred. Removing Soviet war memorials; fake history; false accustions etc etc. Its never ending but hey buy our apples and fish please!
It was in the news today that VVP avoided flying over these countries on his way to the G20 – says something
https://sputniknews.com/politics/201707091055383843-putin-plane-avoids-nato-states/
After Trump’s speech in Poland and Tillerson’s in Ukraine today – the US panders to these crazies and frankly are welcome to them. Unfortunately the rest of Europe has to be lumbered with them……
The Germans and French are getting fed up too. Nordstream (which the Poles are already saying they won’t pay any price for US LNG) and Ukraine.
https://sputniknews.com/politics/201707091055391113-merkel-macron-mins-agreementsk/
As you say do nothing (after the steps u mention).
It was in the news today that VVP avoided flying over these countries on his way to the G20 – says something
Excellent example! Yes, modern technology makes it possible to basically bypass these maniacs both physically and psychologically. Just consider them one big toxic landfill and stay away from it. They will love it and so will we :-)
Cheers,
The Saker
Here is another example of the Ukronazi madness – it has a strong whiff of the Nazis in 30’s/40’s Europe:
“Moscow slams Kiev’s move to introduce registration for Russians as ‘wrong step’…..”
http://tass.com/politics/955756
Well it looks like Russia is preparing retaliatory measures to Poland’s amended law on the demolition of Soviet monuments:
https://sputniknews.com/europe/201707191055673832-russia-federation-council-poland/
An interesting comment below the article (don’t know the historic accuracy) – it points out:
“Poland is quick to recall the Katyn massacre of 12,000 Polish officers, but they never talk about how the Polish government starved to death 20,000 Imperial Russian POWs who were interned by the Germans in prison camps on Polish territory during WWI, which the Polish government refused to release After the Kaiser surrendered….”
Looks like the EU is starting to have enough too and state they wouldn’t be concerned if Poland left the EU over controversial legal acts reforming its judiciary system:
https://sputniknews.com/politics/201707191055681825-eu-poland-row/
USA does not PANDER to countries like Poland, Latvia, Estonia etc. You have that ass backwards. Trump has been asked to play the pawn and he flew to Poland. Given that Anglo-Zionists want German cooperation with Russia terminated Trumpster is attacking Merkel every way he can. A-Z are saying, Pipelines “Ich liebe nicht”. Nothing more.
“The Germans and French are getting fed up too. Nordstream (which the Poles are already saying they won’t pay any price for US LNG) and Ukraine.”
I thought the Poles announced that they WILL buy US LNG. As for Ukraine, things are so Talmudic that Ukraine will be buying coal FROM the US. Polish/German coal must have exhausted itself and is not available for Ukraine :-)
There are two big flaws in a do-nothing strategy.
1. The more miserable that life becomes in the Ukraine, the more the oligarchs pushes a hard-line hatred of Russia to prevent the people from turning against them. The last 3 years have shown the oligarchs are winning against the Ukrainian people. Most observers expected that at some point the Ukrainians would have seen the downward spiral and would have revolted against Kiev. This hasn’t happened and apparently never will, because: (1) the SBU is efficient and can jail all the people they want; (2) all the able-bodied men who could take up arms in revolt, have been going off to Russia, Poland, and now the EU, as economic refugees; and (3) omnipresent 24/7 lying propaganda is quite effective, even more so than in the US. Left to fester over many years, there will be literally an army, a rag-tag army, of dead-end haters willing to march east. There’s a danger that the Empire will suddenly equip this rag-tag army.
2. This would leave Western Europe isolated from Eurasia, unable to shake loose from the Empire and unable to participate in OBOR. So Eurasia needs one or two good transportation corridors through these buffer states.
When you have neighbors who are bat-shit crazy and have rather violent tendencies, you can’t afford to just ignore them and let it get worse. You have to intervene very carefully, in ways that mostly don’t stoke their hatred, while understanding that the crazy leaders will try to twist everything to their insane views.
I think Russia could take some inspiration from Ramzan Kadryov who took on the Salafist crazies in Chechnya, and berated them publicly and successfully. After winning the war, that’s how he built the peace. Of course Kadyrov argued the Quran and the basic principles of Islam, and in the buffer states its about different things: what provides is a better material life for their citizens and the desire for democratic governments that are not corrupt.
I do agree with Saker that if Russia were to give any significant amount of material assistance, as it did before 2014, and in the absence of a major public discussion, it would be worse than money wasted. It would be building up Russia’s enemies.
I really don’t know, but I guess Russia has NOT been trying to fight the rivers of lies in the Ukrainian media. If my guess is correct, that would be a serious failure. The only other mistake the Kremlin has made, IMO, was to accept the “elections” of May 2014. I still don’t see how the Kremlin could have found reason to accept an election where major parties were forbidden to run, where candidates were forced to withdrew due to death threats, and the vote counting was chaotic.
I would love to know if anyone has info on how Russia is trying to talk to the Ukrainians and Poles, or putting a spotlight on Poland’s political prisoner, Mateusz Piskorski.
IMHO, only a lobbyist for the batshit crazy neighbours would advise some kind of detente as a solution. The oligarchs tend not to be charismatic, revolutionary idealists who inspire people. They can be bought off. They rule by brutal force or by blackmail or bribery. I’m sure the Kremlin and the Russian Foreign Ministry can grapple with this level of complexity.
lol, ‘like a small dog barking behind the NATO fence’…..too funny.
Beautifully written piece Saker. As always , a pleasure to read and soothing to the heart.
Actually, if you let a dog bark and bark, eventually it will tire out. The Poles and Ukrainian agitators are just posing, posturing and a lot of hollow talk that is not really backed up by much. The Anglo-Zionists cant even extradite the Ukraine from its quite embarrassing fragmentation.
One great thing that did come about due to the sort-sighted and silly moves of the Anglo-Zionists regarding the Ukraine, is that its marks a bond of brotherhood, that is now literally written in blood between the Orthodox Slavic peoples and Russia’s Chechen Muslims. The brutal past has been buried in the past for good. Together, this brotherhood has, and will continue to stand firm in the face of aggression and belligerence. Its quite beautiful actually. It is a gift to Russia, that she can enjoy for the forseeable and not-so forceeable future.
I believe Russia is, and will continue to use the Chechens as Russia’s ambassadors of goodwill to the Islamic world.
As far as the Poles and the Ukies go, ‘ speak softly , but carry a big stick’. Its the only language the Anglo-Zionists understand.
The future, the 21st century belongs to Eurasia. Its clear as daylight. The whole world sees this.
What one might emphasize a bit more here is Poles’ distrust of ethnic Ukrainians. Not so much those living in Poland (whose numbers are significant but those are largely fat, happy, and integrated), but the external Ukrainians. While many Poles hate (more than fear) Russians for being more successful and for thwarting Polish imperialism, more of them hate Ukrainians much more viscerally and instinctively, by an order or magnitude. They remember the Volyn events (not mentioned in polite conversation these days) which resulted in Polish casualties. Poland’s imperial ambitions awoke in recent years, but methinks Poland would be largely satisfied by taking the Lviv region away from the edgeland (i.e., the Ukraine). That desire was voiced several years ago by Poland’s then government minister R. Sikorski in a wishful Freudian anti-Putin outburst.
A Polish-Ukrainian unity is likely not a given.
A Polish-Ukrainian unity is likely not a given.
Fine, who cares? Let them hate and, if they want, destroy each other. Their problem.
“Everybody knows that Russia meddled in our elections. Everybody knows that they’re not just meddling in the United States’ election. They’re doing this across multiple continents, and they’re doing this in a way that they’re trying to cause chaos within the countries,” Haley told CNN’s State of the Union show.”
I beleive this is known in psychology as ‘projection’; also coming from the ambitious bimbette Haley and the CIA’s CNN it has to be fake news almost by definition.
Switch USA and Russia above.
I have to concur with many of the commentators…this is a good analysis. I can’t speak for other nationalities, but from what I have seen, most Poles are not anti-Russian. Unfortunately, it appears that the most extreme Russophobes are in the government. I think that your proposal that Russia keep non-governmental ties open is probably the best solution.
There is no need to build any walls (besides, the Ukrainians and Latvians are already doing that, if not very effectively), or be nasty
Where did they get the money from for such luxuries?!?
(I look forward to reading “The Daily Ponzi” for an update from the other side, or from the fiefdoms, whatever.)
But I digress. Thanks for the incisive article.
Zibignew Brzeziensky (probably not spelt right) is interesting individual whose main goal in U.S is create anti-russian policies. Why does he resent Russia so much?
He died and went to hell recently.
He was Polish. Explains everything.
He was Polish just like Khodorkovsky was Russian. See if you can deconstruct this.
Nothing on this level of The Game is as it seems.
This is what I think of as the fuck off strategy, and it’s a good one, provided you can achieve the separation. However, you not doing anything about them doesn’t mean that they won’t stop trying it on with you. The relevant example being the Ukraine and the Donbass, where Kiev drives right up to the border and shoots at the people on the other side. What do you do about that? A wall would be useful, but there aren’t walls high enough. If you want to avoid shooting right back and descending into WWIII, then you need to go to the traditional alternative, the war by other means, aka politics. That means some sort of engagement, distasteful though it may be.
There are entire segments of modern, non-gangsta civilisation that deal with the management of thugs. The Saker referenced several of them: security forces, Swiss mediators, as two examples. Auslander mentioned another. I’d add lawyers and negotiators to the list, too. Direct engagement is not required, at all. Let the professionals deal with it.
We saw in the Southern Boiler 2014 how to deal with Ukies who come to the border with bad intentions. The 79th Mechanized was reduced to ashes and twisted steel.
Thousands of Ukie soldiers perished. While Russia allowed hundreds to enter Russia in safety.
MLRSs await the next attempt. Meanwhile, there are memories of Debaltsevo and Ilyovaisk boilers which were equally devastating, just not on the border.
No nation so poor living next to successful nations can maintain this Russophobic war footing and self-destruction for too much longer than these 3.5 years of Maidan madness.
Trump will let this play out for six more months. Then, Kiev will be over. They will launch a last attack most likely. Giving in to the nazis will save Porky from assassination. Then something worse will replace him and the whole shebang cascades like someone pulled the flush handle.
Ukraine’s leaders do have a death wish.They gladly will lose another 10,000 men or more in hopes of a miracle. That suits the Russophobes of DC and EU, too, who are waging a permanent hybrid war against Russia that probably will go on for many more years.
I still watch from time to time those video clips related to destruction of Junta army units in summer 2014.
And it is still hard to comprehend the level of destruction seen in these videos. It was something much more powerfull than Grad MLRS that caused such destruction.
For those who have not seen (some graphic images):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Lf3JX83MM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH-E4yqbSxY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=949rziHu4Uc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewYFgTBwOM8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTVaW1VuuXc
Remains of 72nd Guards Mechanized Brigade (Ukraine) at Amvrosievka. 25 July 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldr2fq3xi08
Thanks for the links.
Yes, I also remember watching a long video with interviews of (still traumatized) Ukie soldiers who somehow survived the Battle of Donetsk airport. The descriptions they were giving out were quite amazing. Like some who spoke about the Chechens ( known by their accents, ethnic look and beards) who literally came out at them from air-ducts, dropped on them from the ceiling and all kinds of havoc and mayhem these hard-nosed guys were pulling off on the poor Ukie conscripts.
In 2014, I also watch a video of Novoruss, where an Orthodox priest one day got truck loads of ‘visitors’. These visitors were big, bulky and burly guys with beards, spoke Russian and Chechen dialect, and they were armed to the teeth. They had trucks of new military equipment with them. They presented the Priest with a document from the local authorities saying that they would be staying at the church temporarily. The Priest talked about how nice and well mannered they were, and that they also prayed 5 times a day (Islamic prayers) at the church (we Muslims believe churches to be the ‘house of God’) and after two days, the Chechens left with their trucks and presumably were heading to the front.
In fact, when the Donbass peoples militias first formed, and tried to fight off the Ukie military, they were getting beat pretty bad, understandably. As taxi-drivers, construction workers, bakers, teachers , etc, were not expected to perform against the odds.
Then, lo and behold, Mr. Khadyrov’s men showed up and quickly stabilized the ranks. Soon, the defensive turned offensive and the Ukies got routed at every turn.
To the heroic Slavic and Chechen Russians, I solute you. The Ukie army will never again successfully be able to go on the offensive. Those days are gone.
Regardless if the Chechens were their by way of tacit approval of the Russian MoD, or not, does not matter. But from the videos Ive seen of Mr.Khayrov’s men in Aleppo, Syria, they confirmed that they were there by way of the Russian MoD and report both to the MoD and keep Mr. Khadyrov updated about things there.
Btw, the success story that is Aleppo today, is not even mentioned in the MSM at all, as if Aleppo (a city of about 2 million, give or take) doesn’t exist to them anymore.
@Melotte In the fourth Video at around 2:18 one can see several totally burned out vehicles covered by straw-stacks which are NOT burned, but vehicle is totally burned. That simply means, these vehicles have been somwhere else when they burned out and then been brought there afterwards. I can imagine why….but won’t tell here. There is also a panorama shot which has been post-edited so one cannot see the soil there, which is most probably totally burned in a very large area…..
@HDan at 02:13 there is one or more BM-21 Grad vehicles, remains of them.
Destroyed badly they are, but burned they never were.
I’d suspect thermobaric weapon, but there are no engines remains.
Looted before destroyed? :-)
It is obvious the plan from West is to create foot soldiers from Ukraine and Poland, who are the most willing. What is the sentiment of the people of Ukraine and Poland? If they resent their leaders, Russia should support them like U.S does in other countries, to bring new leaders that are at least neutral.
The muslim “refugees” let in by Frau Merkel are the other infiltration component to be used in the future
Just wait till these head-choppers get started,
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-07-10/merkel-migrant-blowback-begins-chechen-sharia-police-terrorize-berlin.
leave the muslim migrant and refugees alone. its a rad-herring. instead focus on the Talmudic jews all around you.
muslims will not force a sharia on anyone, ok. islam repeatedly tells its adherents to follow the laws of the land they happen to reside in.
btw, Germany, after ww2, was built by Turkish labor. steve jobs, of apple inc. was the son of Syrian Christian refugees. and what did jesus the messiah say once? ‘ I was a stranger and you welcomed me ‘ .
there are 1.6 + billion muslims in the world, and the world/humanity is getting ever more inter-connected. its time for dialogue and positive interaction rather than islamophobia and reactionary racism.
remember, the people who are suffering most by isis wahabi terror and western hegemony are muslims. muslims are literally dying to get out of foreign designed war zones and good for the brave, humanitarian, proud, pragmatic and gracious german people who by far and large welcomed all the refugees in need.
that’s germans for ya. did they do the ‘holocaust’ ? everything ive come to know, learn and admire about them says no.
I cant wait for Germany to break away from nato, u.s. interference and join Russia, china and iran in Eurasia , all connected by way of the OR-OBinitiative.
its the future. its being built right now.
“remember, the people who are suffering most by isis wahabi terror and western hegemony are muslims.”
I agree and I would rephrase, – Are suffering because of US, Britain, France and others in the “Coalition of the Willing” where Poland is a willing member.
For Poland I will qualify what I wrote with this quote by one of their former foreign minsters,
” “…We’ll get in conflict with the Germans, Russians and we’ll think that everything is super, because we gave the Americans a blow job. Losers. Complete losers.”
http://inside-poland.com/t/secret-sikorski-recording-plunges-polands-government-further-into-crisis/”
Poland is a puppet in the Anglo-Zionist camp.
This aspect of the refugee issue is hardly heard in the Media.
@bored muslim
ISIS and the Salafis are the perfect tool to completly poison the well of truth. Never ever do we hear a thorough rebuttal by Muslim authorities, simply because there are none of any weight. Everything is totally corrupted and bogus in the Muslim world, as it is in the Western core. Terror is a Western Invention and now brought to near perfection because almost anybody believes in it. The emergency laws in France will spread throughout Europe as will Terror. Then everybody will be artifically forced to choose phony sides, sides which have been pre-arranged. The real opposition will become a synonym for the Terrorists – you are either with us or against us – will be the question. Europe is a dead corpse and nothing will bring it back to life again – than god himself only, he is able to destroy the Beast. Blessed are the meek who believe in god, for they will be saved.
” Europe is a dead corpse and nothing will bring it back to life again – than god himself only, he is able to destroy the Beast. ”
What I find fascinating is how fast the onset of death was. I say it was clear in the last 1-2 year. The responsible parties in the main sit in Brussels, London, Paris and Berlin.
“ISIS and the Salafis are the perfect tool to completly poison the well of truth.”
They are artificial and if you look back in history you will find them in different costumes and using different props. The Pirates of the Caribbean and Atlantic are one such bunch. Enough is written to show how Britain developed this tool to attack the Spaniards who were getting too rich for England’s taste.
The method is more or less like this,
1) You Create the problem
2) Give the problem a “Unique Image” (this is all theater on one level)
3) You sound the alarm through all available means of sending information to scare the World
4) Propose a solution that is to your liking
5) You implement the solution reaping great benefits to yourself and make others pay
rinse and repeat.
In short: it is time for Russia to move on. There is nothing good coming out of wasting energy with building good relationship with someone who is aggressive against you:
https://sputniknews.com/world/201707101055391991-russia-diplomatic-representation-nato/
Russia is creating a good alliance with China. Furthermore, they can count on economical relationship with many countries purely on business level:
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/saudi-king-visit-moscow-inside-budding-friendship/ri20314
No matter what we think about the Saudis, they are a country that realizes that they have to build industry and not count only on the easy oil (as recently the low oil prices show). In that regard, Russia is clearly a good partner for them.
The Middle East has good chance of cooperation with Russia.
Overall, Russia is a great power of vast resources all over the spectrum. They don’t need to take crap from anyone.
Putin explicitly stated, as far as I remember, that Russia will try to maintain partnership with Europe in general. This is reasonable. There is no need to break all relationship. However, if there is respect between the parties. Otherwise it is meaningless.
The relationships with the US mus exist mostly to avoid nuclear war. Russia should (and this seems to be the plan) detach from the US and let them be and do whatever they want — print dollars or not print them, it doesn’t matter for Russia.
The route of Putin’s airplane and the Nordstream are a clear indication that Russia is avoiding the hateful PBS nations, as suggested in the article.
One thing I would like to say about the often appearing claims that the people of some nation do not hate Russia, it is only the minority in power. While this is probably true, the government represents the nation. So whatever they claim or do, it is in the name of the respective nation and the entire country bares the consequences. It has always been the case throughout the history. If politicians in Poland are aggressive against Russia and it is not a rare but systematic occurrence for quite a while, then this is the opinion of the Polish population, since that did not sanction their politicians by any means. We should be careful with excuses and playing the victims, in general.
Saker
Good idea, minimise state affairs, yet keep non-governmental channels open and operational at the local level for those who still remain human beings. This idea can apply much wider than just to the zionazi colonies in Eastern Europe.
Russia Considering Lowering Level of Diplomatic Representation at NATO
https://sputniknews.com/world/201707101055391991-russia-diplomatic-representation-nato/
“Moscow is considering the possibility of lowering the level of diplomatic representation to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) to the status of charge d’affaires ad interim after current Russian permanent representative to the NATO Alexander Grushko leaves his post, the Izvestia newspaper reported on Monday.
Such a possibility is due to the fact that NATO is not inclined to constructive dialogue, and any discussions turn into accusations against the Russian side, sources in the Russian Foreign Ministry told the newspaper.
“We consider the option of leaving the charge d’affaires ad interim in Brussels after Alexander Grushko returns to Moscow,” the source said.
On July 13, the meeting of the NATO-Russia Council at ambassadorial level will take place at NATO headquarters in Brussels, but Moscow has doubts that this meeting will bring any results, as the alliance “does not want to listen and hear” the Russian position and “again builds an exclusively accusatory line”, trying to expose Russia as the culprit for events in Ukraine.”
Russia recently defunded pace also (though 2 years late). Pulling out or minimising operations in toxic orgs makes equal sense. Why waste the effort on israel’s quislings, put the energy, resources and funds into working with those government’s and orgs that have not been reduced to zionazi adolescent provocateurs.
The only thing Russia really “needs” from Poland is that it not be a base for US/NATO aggression against Russia. I worry that a completely hands off approach might result in a massive arsenal based in Poland and directed against Russia. But what the correct response would be I am not sure.
In full disclosure, I lived several years in Poland, used to speak fairly decent Polish, had a lot of good friends there. They are not bad people and most of them do njot really hate Russia. But they are victims of the media campaign and information war against Russia. The stereotypical ultra-nationalist is certainly there too, but they are not the majority and many Poles are uncomfortable around them.
I would urge Russia to fight back on the information front. Is there a Polish language RT or Sputnik? Can Russian universities invite Polish students to Russia for language and cultural exchange? If not, why not? Why should Russia simply give up and let the fascist narrative win by default without a fight? If such a plan does not work, then Russia is no worse off than it is right now.
And if the Polish government does all it can to censor Russian media and prevent travel by Polish citizens to Russia, that alone would turn many more Poles against their own government. If the Polish government forces its citizens to buy much more expensive US lng instead of cheap Russian gas, that too will be resented by the people.
In my view, it is a mistake to simply give Poland to the ziowest without any fight at all.
The same, BTW, applies to the Baltic states and west Ukrainians. Russia does not simply give up in shooting wars. It should not do so in information wars either.
What Poland did you live in?
The Poland we are talking about is the Poland that is the new number 2 military in NATO, now that Turkey is on a path sort of out.
Poland probably already has some nukes. What do you think the Tomahawks will carry if fired at Russia? Confetti? Tomahawks are the missiles in the “missile defense systems” US placed there.
The US has dispersed its nuclear arsenal all over the place, not just where they are officially.
And Poland is like a few hundred years from wanting to be linked up with Russia.
They’ll be fine. A bad economy, a big military, best friends with Kiev, send lots of their snipers and special operators to kill women and children in Donbass. Even though Putin let 700 of them out of the Debaltsevo cauldron, they still come back in large numbers to kill Russian-speakers in Donbass. They really want to mix it up in Ukraine against the Russians. I hope they get their chance. They’ll be wiped like the Ukies.
As Saker pointed out—both countries have some good people. Just not enough to be worth caring about any longer. Good bye and good luck, vassals.
Where did I say that Poland was NOT a vassal of the US and NATO? I thought we all understood it was. When did i say it would not host an arsenal directed at Russia? I said specifically that it will do exactly that. With all that agreed, what should be done about it?
I suggested one way, (to be tried in combination with other methods) which is for Russia to try to defend itself in the information war against it in those countries where Russia is demonized the most. It should do so for the sake of Russia and not Poland or Lithuania.
Why do you think Russia should not do that?
You have been attacked by someone who has very shallow knowledge of the world. He somehow thinks that NATO is some talk shop nations and does not realize that it is a US Talk shop. He thinks that Polish government driving its policy in Warsaw. He is unable to realize that the personalities he sees are just stooges for the Anglo-Zionists. Well paid ones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rados%C5%82aw_Sikorski
married to Anne Applebaum. Damn, another coincidence.
and
“Sikorski was born in Bydgoszcz. He chaired the student strike committee in Bydgoszcz in March 1981 while studying at the I Liceum Ogólnokształcące (High School).[1] In June 1981 he travelled to the United Kingdom to study English. After martial law was declared in December 1981, he was granted political asylum in Britain in 1982.[2] He studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at Pembroke College, University of Oxford, where Zbigniew Pełczyński was one of his tutors.[3]”
So a guy from “nowhere” ends up in Oxford :-) Yeh, right. Just a coincidence.
Here we have another “regular fella” from Poland. Jacek Rostowski.
“Jacek Rostowski born 30 April 1951, London) is a Polish economist, conservative politician, academic and former Minister of Finance and Deputy Prime Minister of the Republic of Poland.”
Holy smokes. Born in London and rockets to Minister-ship. Amazing ….. NOT !!!
“Jan’s grandfather was Jakub Rothfeld (who left Judaism, changed his surname to Rostowski and regarded himself as a Pole), a professor of neurology at the John Casimir University in Lwów.” We can extrapolate from this as to Jack’s parents ethnicity. Funny how Wiki avoids mentioning his mother. My my…
So lets correct Jack’s name. It should be Jacek Rothfeld. Doesn’t that sounds more authentic ?
“Is there a Polish language RT or Sputnik?”
Sputnik yes.
Red Ryder
“As Saker pointed out—both countries have some good people. Just not enough to be worth caring about any longer. Good bye and good luck, vassals.”
We in the US will also be getting “presence” from Russia at the same time E. Europe is. He seems to think that the battle field is only Eastern Europe.
Of course, there is a Polish-language “Sputnik.” But not much more. Weeklies like “Faktycznie” and “Nie” do fight the official propaganda, but they are clearly in the minority. And everybody here interested in Polish-Russian relations must know what happened to the leader of the only non-russophobic party in Poland, “Zmiana”: Mateusz Piskorski has been in jail for over a year now on bogus charges of spying for Russia and China.
I don’t subscribe fully to the idea of the PBS syndrome. It all seems to point towards culture, history and ideologies. Wars are rarely started on these, imo.
Almost every war’s root cause can be distilled to area control, be it land or sea. To be in control of a piece of land or sea has a profound effect on the human psyche. Manifested in a number of ways; for example, the act of genocide is a consequence, not the cause, when races/tribes fight for control on common lands.
Adding Kaliningrad enclave into the equation, evaluating the current Polish/Lithuanian stance towards Russia, it becomes very predictable. Of course, here you could argue PBS syndrome as pre-condition for the equation (else they’d be on friendly terms), however, it’s much more likely imo, that PBS syndrome originated and is shaped by the constant land exchanges in Polish/Lithuanian history.
Kaliningrad is both a thorn and a diamond to be coveted. Won’t take a lot to convince the Poles/Lithuanian to oppose Russia. Just wave Kaliningrad infront of their eyes, you can almost see their salivas drooling. Russians of course will never negotiate Kaliningrad for they’d lose their strategic Baltic enclave. (it’s indefensible if war breaks out, though not without a bloody fight)
Let’s talk hypothetical and imagine that Kaliningrad is split between Poland and Lithuania. Would the PBS syndrome be enough for Poland/Lithuania to adopt an almost rabid stance towards Russia?
That said, the biggest test for the “do nothing” policy will come when NATO moves its nuclear warheads into Poland/Lithuania. Would Russia be tempted to respond? And how?
It’s defensible if war breaks out. Putin and the Military have indicated they will use tactical nukes. Pretty much will put a real kink in the invasion.
That goes for everywhere Russia has assets. They will use tactical nukes if it is necessary to stop an assault.
“Let’s talk hypothetical and imagine that Kaliningrad is split between Poland and Lithuania. Would the PBS syndrome be enough for Poland/Lithuania to adopt an almost rabid stance towards Russia?”
You already know the answer is yes because the hate is created by outside forces playing on their colonial locals’ prejudices, greed and insecurities. The reasons used in the propaganda to justify the hate are continually adjusted in the zionazi psywar. When a victim conceeds to one of their demands, it only further emboldens the zionazi parasites to demand more.
Sturm:
… PBS syndrome originated and is shaped by the constant land exchanges in Polish/Lithuanian history.
What’s wrong with those people? They’re constantly whining. Should the citizens of other nations also act like spoiled children? Austria could complain constantly about the loss of Hungaria, parts of Czech and of Slovakia, … Germans could bitch about their massive loss of land all day long, too. Think for example of Alsace or parts that are Polish now.
Just wave Kaliningrad infront of their eyes, …
You’re talking about Königsberg? Correct? It’s quite strange that are Polish and Lithuanian nationalists are angry at Russia, when Germans should be the ones.
Someone should tell the those who’re stuck in the past to get over it.
vot tak@4:45am UTC above your comment pretty much answered it.
A society with latent grievances tend to be more easily subverted. Since Germans are on the same side, it’s considered rude to air your grievances to an ally. Let’s be polite :)
Keeping lines open won’t be enough to stymie a barking dog. Russia would need to promulgate an effective way to halt the subversions, lest it spreads to the satellite nations (e.g Belarus, Kazakhstan ..etc). This sort of fight takes decades but I’m sure the Russians are already keenly aware of it.
Sort of makes you question how they lost the Ukraine, but that’s already been discussed to death on this site. Sorry for the offtrack :P
Sturm:
A society with latent grievances tend to be more easily subverted. Since Germans are on the same side, it’s considered rude to air your grievances to an ally. Let’s be polite :)
That’s why I said that people should get over it. Aside from some misdirected ones, Germany’s own PBS faction is part of the Federation of Expellees. It’s difficult to understand what’s going on in their minds – most probably it’s about money and lost status. Nevertheless it makes someone wonder about the mindset of those people. Personally I don’t mind if someone’s great-great-grandpa once stole a chicken out of the coop of my great-great-grandparents.
Sort of makes you question how they lost the Ukraine, but that’s already been discussed to death on this site.
vok tak also included an answer to this rhetorical question: prejudices, greed and insecurities. This approach of dividing people also works on an “atomar level” (families). Only two ways come to my mind to confront this: The first is by educating people (a broad general knowledge and history), explaining interconnections and promoting critical thinking. The second approach is creating unity by patriotism / nationalism. The latter one has a tendency of backfiring (Germany is a prime example). The best would be a combination of the first approach, combined with a society with low inequality or at least several safety mechanisms.
Saker, what do you think of the Polish Orthodox Church? I think PBS will exist as long as Poland remains Papist (“Roman Catholic”).
In the U.S., there is a growing trickle of Catholics converting to Orthodoxy.
I recommend the following podcast to understand some of the differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism/Protestantism:
http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/god_essence_and_energies#574
“In this program, Steve and Kevin conduct this fascinating interview with professor and author Dr. David Bradshaw–professor of Philosophy and the Philosophy of Religion at the University of Kentucky. Dr. Bradshaw explains for us the distinction between God’s “Essence and Energies”.”
What to do with increasingly PBSing Belorussia? Lukashenko is being more and more accommodative of the PBSers, who make up most of the country’s politically active youth.
Speaking as a person who has come across no more than a dozen Poles in a lifetime (and those mainly emigres to FUKZUSA) I seem to recognize the syndrome from Saker’s list 1-7. Moreover I likewise recognize traits 1-3 and 6-7 in Israel. Thus, substituting Arabs for Russia and Israel for Poland: “The big question is this: how do you deal with such hate-filled lunatics when they [the Israelis] are your neighbors? From an Arab point of view, these neighbors [the Israelis] are constantly shifting their position on a spectrum roughly ranging between “minor pain in the ass” to “existential threat”, so this is nothing trivial. The Saker’s ‘dolce far niente’ approach might be right for the Middle East as well. Stay calm but keep your powder dry. Who knows if Israel, which like Poland glories in “our long and sorrowful history”, will not gradually wake up from its collective psychosis of persecution and revanche. After all, there are a few Righteous Jews who help Arabs just as there were a few Righteous Poles who helped Jews in WW2. Like the mustard seed, the tiniest of grains, good things can grow if the climate is favourable.
Why Poles feel like that for Russians but feel admiration and submission for the germans who have been very very worst than Russian with them in History.
The firts wars of the Polish kings were not against Russia but against the Teutonic Order(Prussia later)
When Russia stole half of Poland in the XVIIIe century, ending the Pole Kingdom and state, It was according with the Prussians who stole the other half part.
In the WW2, Germans reduced Poles in slavery and killed 6 millions of Poles, destroying fully Varsaw. Never, never, never Russians did the half of the half of the half of that.
So, why this hate-fear for Russia and admiration-submission for germania?
@Frenchy. Certainly, Polish Teutonic war 1308 for starters, as I learnt from my Polish wife. Perhaps the answer to your question might come from item number 2 in Saker’s list? A strong desire to be “part of the West” (as opposed to an imaginary “despotic Asia”) would impel Poles to identify with Western Europe’s Drang nach Oste (as exemplified par excellence by the Napoleonic Empire and the Anglo Capitalist Empire).
“Why Poles feel like that for Russians but feel admiration and submission for the germans who have been very very worst than Russian with them in History.
The firts wars of the Polish kings were not against Russia but against the Teutonic Order(Prussia later)”
Very good observation which leads me to believe that You Read History and understand what you read :-) Excellent.
Information warfare has been very successful it making Germans seem to Poles as being their “friends”. On top of that the labor market in Germany being opened to them causes Poles to fall into an instant amnesia. Heck, they see no problems with the nation that leveled the place to the ground but feel HUGE hurt toward the one that liberated it.
On top of that their confusion as to who is who in terminology of the words Imperial Russia, Soviet Union and Russia today results in excellent results in making Russia a monster. Oh, Catherin the Great was NOT A RUSSIAN. Majority do not even know this.
Alex,
history is not that simple as you put it :…”Heck, they see no problems with the nation that leveled the place to the ground but feel HUGE hurt toward the one that liberated it…”
Stalin “liberated” Poland? are you joking? get real.
Stalin did liberate Poland — it’s quite evident from Poland’s current borders with Germany. It’s even more evident from the fact that there were zero concentration camps/torture dungeons in Poland under Soviet rule (“occupation” as per Pshek parlance). Nazi Germany and the Zionazi West have no such civilizational constraints and, as it seems, the majority Pshek population neither.
Only if you added Croats (Ustasha) to the list of peoples with “pilban syndrome”, the list would have been pretty much complete.
Saker’s own words: (from a previous post)
“In fact, the most rabid atrocities of WWII were not committed by Hitler’s forces, not even the SS, but by the forces fully inspired and supported by the Vatican: the Croatian Ustashe of Ante Pavelic and the Ukrainian nationalists.”
/ukrainian-nationalism-its-roots-and-nature/ Paragraph: Two different Drang nach Osten
A said fact is that nationalities such as Poles, Western Ukrainians or Croats, which have been carved out of larger nations such as Russians or Serbs, serve as Cerberus of the Vatican Hades and act as bridgeheads during regular genocidal raids into Russian and/or Serbian lands.
Catholicsm in those border entities is not the same as catholicsm in let’s say France, Argentina or Brazil.
Poles, Ukrainians or Bielorussians have nothing to do with Russians and were not ‘carved out’. Russia was created later than Poland.
You choose Poland for obvious reasons, relying on the ignorance of the masses. Why not mention that There is no legal entity called The Ukraine until 1918? What do you think that was carved out of if not Russia/Novorossija and bits of the Austro-Hungarian Empire? Here. Use this: http://geacron.com/home-en/?&sid=GeaCron690354 It will show you too that Rus and Poland are roughly coeval (around 900AD).
We have not to forget that a lot and lot of intellectual, scientific or artistic Poles emigrates in the XIXe and XXe century. In France we had the honnor, glory and luck to received people like Chopin or Marie Curie and à lot of brave people for our best.
That has povered Poland.
Then, in the beginning of WWII , German had list of all the polish elite, teachers, lawyers, judge, doctors, mayors, army officers that”s einsatz gruppen assassinate in the first weeks of invasion just behing army.
German project was to decerebrate polish people to have à big mass of lands for their aryans settlers and a big mass of polish slaves to serve them. Nobody cleaver to guide them, just catholics priests to regulate them.
Did the Germans succeded? :)
In Europe, we do”t say that Poles are the Troie’s horse of USA, but the Troie’ donkey.
I have a great deal of sympathy for a lot of what has been said here. Polish people are generally good and intelligent beings. I went to school with Poles and one of my best friends at art college was a Pole. My experiences with Poles have shown me they can be kind, generous, witty and amusing but, and there is a very big but indeed. There is a side to manyPoles that reveals them to be racist in the extreme, arrogant, and full of false pride. Their enmity towards Russia is suicidal, and their contempt for the Europe community they were so anxious to join is palpable. It risks them and the BalticStates dragging the rest of Europe into a war that will definitely destroy all of Eastern Europe and probably Western Europe too. All on behalf of their American masters, who love the idea of Europe being offered up as a buffer zone by the Poles and are all too willing providing the arms that will make it so. No need for God to save America while there are Poles to do it for him.
Bryan Hemming:
… and their contempt for the Europe community they were so anxious to join is palpable.
Their contempt for the European Community probably results from the fact that they’re receiving orders instead of giving them. I rarely hear someone complaining about all the roads – paid for by European tax payers money – that are being built in Poland. I don’t hear them complaining that they’re able to move freely in Europe and that they’re permitted to work in other European countries as well (to be fair I have to add that many of them are being exploited in the Western countries). Those “nationalists” who don’t want to take in refugees – for which Poland is responsible as well (thanks to their participation in Iraq or consuming of products that are based on the exploitation of Africans and Middle Eastern people) – are very fond of all the all the benefits they get from the European Union.
It risks them and the BalticStates dragging the rest of Europe into a war that will definitely destroy all of Eastern Europe and probably Western Europe too.
Replace the word probably with certainly and you’re right on the spot. At least Germany and Italy are partaking in the concept of “Nuclear sharing”. In a conflict France and the UK will be wiped of the map as well. If there’s ever a military conflict in the future, developers will make a hell of a business afterwards – with so many empty land to develop.
“Their contempt for the European Community ”
ad hominem statement removed — mod
The opening of the gates of Europe is a gift that should be taken.
” paid for by European tax payers money”
Get some facts. Each nation must pay in.
https://inews.co.uk/explainers/charts/much-uk-pays-eu-much-get-back/
Yehh your right. But !!!! Each nation MUST OPEN their markets. If you travel throughout Poland you will see a hell of a lot of GERMAN chain stores. When do the same through Czech Republic or Hungary you won’t.
Building a road in Poland ?
“Five other firms have told Reuters they are still in dispute with the road agency over payment: Austria’s Strabag, the Polish unit of Germany’s Bilfinger, Ireland’s SIAC, a joint venture of Ireland’s Sisk and Roadbridge called SRB, and Budimex, a Polish unit of Spain’s Ferrovial. All but one said they had filed suits against the state road agency which were unresolved. Bilfinger’s subsidiary said it was seeking to resolve the dispute out of court.”
They lost money ? I think not. I think Poland did.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-poland-roads-specialreport-idUSBRE99N05920131024
Poland’s national stadium in Warsaw,
“The general contractor of the National Stadium was a German-Austrian-Polish consortium led by Alpine Bau and made up of Alpine Bau Deutschland, Alpine Construction Poland, PBG SA and Hydrobudowa Poland SA. The completion date was set for 24 months from the signing of the contract and the construction process involved approximately 1,200 employees.[9]”
One paper I saw stated that out of every euro transfer to Poland that originates from a German taxpayer, of that euro 85 euro-cents returns to Germany. That’s how the game of “European Community”. So look deeper than the headlines.
Alex:
Get some facts. Each nation must pay in.
I know that each nation must pay in. This doesn’t change the fact that Poland is a net recipient of European tax payers money (http://www.businessinsider.de/brexit-eu-members-net-contributions-and-net-funding-2016-12?r=UK&IR=T). In this aspect my statement had been factually correct.
… of that euro 85 euro-cents returns to Germany.
Maybe the information is correct. I don’t know. This would even reinforce my statement that they’re receiving orders instead of giving them.
Building a road in Poland ?
I had used plural: roads. Not that long ago and acquaintance told me about an ad of the EU beside a highway that’s being built.
So look deeper than the headlines.
I’ve been looking deeper on many occasions and I’m aware that many ordinary people – all across Europe – are being screwed (this includes Germans as well – keyphrase: stagnation of wages).
My comment was intended to elaborate on the phrase “contempt for the European Community“, mentioned by Bryan Hemming.
With regard to sanctioning Russia for some mad up charges Polish politicians had been at the forefront. Along with the other Visegrad countries they had been against a haircut of Greek debt. During the so-called “refugee crises”, they were also opposed to helping. Right at the moment Polish politicians are shrieking because of Nord Stream 2. If that’s not some variation of contempt, then I don’t know. I still can’t comprehend their reason for electing a far right government. Either the compassionate Polish voters had been so discouraged to vote, the brainwashing of main stream media had been so intense or greed is too widespread. Well, in this aspect they’re as stupid as their German counterparts. Chances are very high that Merkel gets to rule another term.
If the contempt for the European Community were based on reasons of compassion, then I could agree. The European Union has to be restructured from top to bottom. The predominant neo-liberalism (which also leads to increasing xenophobia) will sooner or later destroy the EU.
@Anonymus So true for developers. It will come in handy for China to have a permanently operating Moon-Station, the gained Know How will make the development phase of that new terra incognita somewhat easier, all the more that new Moon-Station Components can be pre-tested there.
Putin is like a good schoolteacher. He treats everybody the same. Girls and boys. Geniuses and bad boys. Even children suffering from the Pilban syndrome have nothing to fear – as long they don’t bully the other kids around, or try to set the classroom aflame.
As a Pole I can say this, the Article is 100% correct you can’t fix stupid the Poles have an inbred desire to be “martyrs” no matter the cause they are the “Don Quixote’s” of Eastern Europe give them a windmill and they will fight it.
I am not saying this because I am pro-Russian, I have recused my self from Poland.
The Poles are like that pigeon that will knock over the pieces on the chessboard take a shit on it and strut around as if it won the game – don’t bother with them, given enough time and opportunity the Polish-problem will take care of it self.
Problem: Ukraine is still lying there in between Russia and EU.
Basically, landmass logistics (railways and long haul trucks) can only go via Belarus or Ukraine.
If Ukraine is out, then Belarus is new monopolist and with time would start acting w.r.t. cargo transit just like Ukraine acted during gas wars.
And Russia to EU transit is crucial for being part of Chinese OBOR initiative.
So, i do not think that Lenin-created Ukraine can be just isolated and ignored.
It at least has to be seen decomposing, as that last remnant of USSR should, and then new old logistics routes to be secured through the new land of PBS nomads.
Perhaps we would have to select one or two roads backing up Belarus and sponsor warlords living around those routes for the peace and protection.
Saker, you are correct on the Anti-Russian retoric of the Poles and their positive view on the USA. Its stupidity.
But from a Western perspective I have some admiration for the Poles that they still stand up for their faith, fatherland etc.
The problem is they are not standing up for their Fatherland, they are accepting slavery under the American Empire. As far as their faith is concerned, there’s nothing to be proud of “standing up” for a faith based on a 1000-year old lie, and a whole succession of increasingly worse lies following. They are of course free to worship their human idol in the Vatican as long as they leave the rest of us alone. There lies the issue we’re currently discussing.
Yes they are standing up for their fatherland in not accepting migration etc. like the rest of Western Europe. I said I concur with the saker on the problem with the Americanism.
But on the 1000 year old lie I absolutely do not agree. I like to read the saker, but not on the anti-catholic tendencies and rants.
I like to attend you to the homily of Benedict XVI spoken to a million catholic young pilgrims in 2011:
“Jesus’ responds to Peter’s confession by speaking of the Church: “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church”. What do these words mean? Jesus builds the Church on the rock of the faith of Peter, who confesses that Christ is God.
The Church, then, is not simply a human institution, like any other. Rather, she is closely joined to God. Christ himself speaks of her as “his” Church. Christ cannot be separated from the Church any more than the head can be separated from the body (cf. 1 Cor 12:12). The Church does not draw her life from herself, but from the Lord. ”
https://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/homilies/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20110821_xxvi-gmg-madrid.html
>> But on the 1000 year old lie I absolutely do not agree.
> Bernard of Clairvaux (Latin: Bernardus Claraevallensis), O.Cist (1090 – 20 August 1153) Canonized 18 January 1174
Not 1000 years ago i admit, a bit less.
The driving force behind anti-Slavic pan-European war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendish_Crusade
> The title Doctor Mellifluus refers to Bernard as one whose teaching “is as sweet as honey”
Yep, pledging wars against Slavs was always “sweet as honey”, i can only wholeheartedly agree.
This was one of the many Catholic Crusades against Byzantium Christianity, that culminated in destruction of Constantinopole and had echoes as far as trading Ireland people for slaves.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1449-anacletus-ii-pietro-pierleoni
> The opposition to Anacletus expressed itself in the invention and dissemination of the most slanderous reports concerning him. Bernard of Clairvaux, who was the most zealous supporter of Innocent in France, quite naturally poured forth his indignation in a vehement epistle to Lothaire, to the effect that “to the shame of Christ a man of Jewish origin was come to occupy the chair of St. Peter.”
What a bright man! Christianity can never embrace Jews and should ditch them out, starting with Christ themselves or maybe even with Moses?…
But maybe this was a random fluctuation?
> …with the pagans, until “either the religion or the nation be wiped out (Lat. aut ritus ipse, aut natio deleatur)” [Bernardus abbas Claravallensis, “Epistolae,”
The nation should be enslaved or, if enslavement is not possible, totally genocided.
Really, what is there in Catholicism not to like, if they called to genocide of wrong nations when it was almost 1000 years until Hitler?
Well it is interesting that you mention Bernard of Clairvaux. A lot of his writings and opinions where put totally out of context. You should by example read some work of Régine Pernoud (Pour en finir avec le Moyen Age). She cites a Soviet historian who said that Bernard was the typical defender of feudalism while Abelard was the defender of the new city based burghers.
That is of course complete nonsensical, because both theologians were of aristocratic descent. From a theological perspective Bernard is much more interesting because he was defending the view that you can really have a personal relation and knowledge of God. Abelard on the other hand was defending that God was so transcendent that a personal knowledge of God is impossible. This was a nominialstic point of view and this line actually explains most problems the world has today.
But of course it is possible to have personal knowlegde and a relation with God because God is relation by himself (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit
—
About this so called crusade against the Wendish people I should check this out. But of course it is always better to convert a pagan people to christianity then let them go. There is much criticism of the conquest of the Saxon tribes by Charlemagne. But the Saxons were sacrificing children. So he put this to a halt. (And it is really interesting to start reading some letters of Alcuin who said that it was important to be patient on the Saxons and not be too demanding in the conversion)
—
And the sack of Constantinople was the mistake of the stupid Venetians not of the papacy. The pope was shocked by the sacking because the Venetians used their ships to relocate the crusaders to Constantinople instead of the Holy Land.
Oh, great. Those Venetians “made a mistake”.
Let’s buy it for a moment.
So poor Catholic Paladins found themselves at Christian Constantinople walls rather than Muslim Jerusalem.
Oookay.
Now how does this means Catholic Crusaders should destroy Constantinople?
If you call a taxi and the driver pits you out in the wrong street – does it make you go on killing looting spree? Or does it make you puzzled how to fix the mistake and travel to you destination?
Landing of Crusaders in Constantinople may be Venetian thing.
But destroying the Christian city was what Crusaders did on their own. That can not be shifted upon Venetians.
Well that was a tragic history yes. But I think we should find peace and talk on more interesting things like the theology of St.-Bernard.
Here is a Catholic priest thanking president Putin for his help in Syria :
http://www.globalresearch.ca/without-putin-syria-would-have-ceased-to-exist-interview-with-flemish-priest-living-in-syria/5594692
Sure. The person “on the ground” thanking for help. It is a normal human gratitude.
But that priest does not define Vatican politics.
And then there is Greek-Catholic priest blessing murders of Donetsk people
http://ukraina.ru/news/20140910/1010430525.html
Was he or his Church anathemaed by Vatican? I guess not.
So, see, when I look from the East at the Catholic Church I can only see kind and noble men in far faraway fog and stern trigger-happy ideologists on the borderline.
Yep, there is a lot of absolutely noble persons on the ground in Rome-Catholic Church like in every other society. Surething.
But as a political entity taken as a whole that Church is murderous for us.
“About this so called crusade against the Wendish people I should check this out.”
Easy to find information about the “work” of the Teutonic Order. If you read more about them you will realized that they were basically a Corporation. Business was what they were interested in. As for converting souls, just look at the North American Indians. Religion was used as a crowbar to destroy their cultures and take their land. In broad strokes “Join us and you will be safe.” The trick being that when they join they will eventually lose their land and at worst also their identity.
Read “Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee” by Dee Brown.
“But of course it is always better to convert a pagan people to christianity then let them go.”
This is a very slippery road and so wrong on many levels IMHO.
As to Venetians, take a look at this book, “Financial Vipers of Venice: Alchemical Money, Magical Physics, and Banking in the Middle Ages and Renaissance”. A further question would be “Who exactly were these Venetians?” because I am sure they were not all equal and from the same tribe. And that is something important to differentiate if possible. :-)
PS: How would you answer this question: “What happened to people that GOD put on this planet pre-Moses and all that, who did not believe as there was no Christianity ? They prayed for instance to Thunder ? “
“with the pagans, until “either the religion or the nation be wiped out (Lat. aut ritus ipse, aut natio deleatur)” [Bernardus abbas Claravallensis, “Epistolae,”
Exactly what the Croatian Roman Catholics did to Orthodox Christian Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia between 1941-45. With the Pope’s full knowledge and complicity by silence.
http://serbianna.com/analysis/archives/1182
Ustashe posing with the head of a Serbian Orthodox Priest.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f5/69/d8/f569d83ff4b2d692e7e1081143728118.jpg
Well put, but if I would stand up for my country, the last thing I would allow is to be taken over by another country’s military. Poland does exactly that: it invites NATO to take over foreign affairs. That equals total submission for what purpose? Replenish Russophobia? Run for another war? Good luck with that, dear Polish friends.
The Pilban syndrome reminds me of a similar state here in the Balkans. The Serbia – Croatia relations. Same thing.
think of PBS as a biological weapon
of course the same weapon leaves the same wounds no matter where and when it was used
Unfortunately the Saker is correct in regards to “In truth, both the EU and the US are increasingly becoming irrelevant to Russia whose future is in the South, the East and even the North” and “If we look at the internal components of the AngloZionist Empire, then we can see that for Russia the USA will continue to matter the most, then the European Union”.
The key here is the “AngloZionist Empire” and rather than going in to what that is I will just say that for the average US citizen that has meant the draining of Treasure, Commons and Inalienable Rights. This does not benefit US citizens but places shackles and servitude on them bordering on the life of an indentured servant not in the citizens interest but Empire’s masters.
In our past servants typically worked four to seven years in exchange for passage, room, board, lodging and freedom dues. While the life of an indentured servant was harsh and restrictive, it wasn’t slavery. There were laws that protected some of their rights. How is that any different than what we see in the student loan industry and the bailing out of the very “AngloZionist Empire” of their casino style transnational criminal cabal banking and corporations while denying basic medical care to support the society as they are still left with over 20 trillion in debt (and growing) to be paid by the citizens in the form of taxes to finance it all.
The key for the American citizens would be to cleanse the conspirators (willing or not) from bureaucracy and goverment power, without this there is no future for what is a dying empire ravished by a vampire. It does not take a lot of research to uncover the powers bringing this destruction but there is a tie observed in the neocon/neoliberal that is undeniable to this destruction.
If this was done by the citizens (is it possible?) the country could be restored and the possibilities of US/Russia co-operation is unlimited to what it could produce for both countries citizens and the world for that matter. Imagine a Bering Straight (35 miles wide and shallow) pipeline to Alaska and down through the existing infrastructure to the lower 48 (bye bye ME wars and expenditures).
High speed transportation links across this same route to link up with Russia and possibly the “New Silk Road” would allow for the bringing of most troops home to rebuild the infrastructure (the military already furnishes benefits as medical and the GI Bill). The closing military bases around the world as resources re channeled would indeed finance most if not all of it. The Energy sector must be improved to convert in the long haul into renewable resources, industries and markets diversified to meet the future demands and security of all citizens involved.
Absolutely brilliant article. Leaves nothing to add as far as I can see.
The course of action recommended in this article would make sese if the “syndrome” were an inherent biological trait of poles and ukrainians. Unfortunately, it is merley the result of relentless rusophobic propaganda produced by their governments under the funding the direction of western specialists in the science of mas mind control, a science in which the West made enormous progress during the last 100 years or so.
In any case, Ukraine, Poland and the Baltics are only the most notorious and obvious results of these techniques, but in fact they are being applied relentlessly to the rest of the Western masses as well, and perphaps other peoples.
Therefore, by the logic of this article, the same recommendations proposed in it should be applied to how Russia deals with other countrie once they proceed to fall completely under the hypnotizing power of the phobias being driven into the minds of their populations. It does not strike me as a wise strategy, although it is understandable.
Propaganda can only be fought with counterpropaganda, by which I mean a massive and relentless effort to unmask the bullshit of the russophobia campaign. Russia is largely outgunned in mind control techniques and resources, but it should definitely not take it lying down. It should by all means availalbe get the message across to the populations of those brainwashed countries, including Poland and Ukraine. They are to a certain extent doing that already, which is why the Ukrainian junta is so obsessed with putting a wall around any information coming from Russia.
If Russia follows the recommendations of this article, I gather it will stop trying to reach those polulations, thereby giving the Polish and Ukrainian rulers exactly what they want.
Russia should do the opposite. Keep unmasking the russophobic crap and sending it back to the issuers. Ukrainians and Poles, as a people, are not especially stupid, in spite of all the jokes. They will get the messages.
“Propaganda can only be fought with counterpropaganda, by which I mean a massive and relentless effort to unmask the bullshit of the russophobia campaign. ”
RussiaToday is hated in the corridors of power in Washington because it is being watched by Americans who know that they are being lied to. I would say it is one of the best antidote to FOX/CNN and BBC.
Marx is right. Religion is the opium of the people particularly in Poland. Centuries of eating the biscuit has made them ignore science and swallow propaganda. Poland was the staging area for every attack against Russia from the West.
Vuki:
Marx is right. Religion is the opium of the …
I don’t know enough about Marx to assess situation surrounding his statement. In the course of history Religion had been abused several times, but that’s not the problem of Religion. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are based on the Old Testament and part of it are the Ten Commandments. Several Religious leaders (Rabbis, Priests and Imams) had abused their power and agitated against others, but that’s not the fault of the respective Religion itself. Man in his wickedness misrepresented Thou shalt not kill. I don’t comprehend what’s so difficult with that Commandment to understand.
Thou shall not commit murder.
However if you are not of the tribe than you are less than human and murder is a legal term which only applies only applies to humans. Got it?
Talmudic reasoning where ANYTHING can be explained in the RIGHT WAY.
Anonymous:
By purpose I wrote “Several Religious leaders (Rabbis, Priests and Imams) had abused their power and agitated against others, but that’s not the fault of the respective Religion itself.”
Defining others as lesser human beings or no human beings at all is exactly that abuse I had in mind.
….unless you are one of the savage subhumans who is blind to the shining light of Civilization.
…..with the pagans, until “either the religion or the nation be wiped out (Lat. aut ritus ipse, aut natio deleatur)” [Bernardus abbas Claravallensis, “Epistolae,”]
The guy is now Catholics Saint, no less
12th century, 800 years before Third Reich
Yes, exactly: 8 or 9 centuries ago. That was the politics at the time. So? How is it relevant to today’s politics, unless you want to stir up yet another war between religions, when we need more unity towards general goals like peace and prosperity, rather than dissensions that keep us busy while we’re being enslaved.
How is it relevant to today politics? Because it IS today politics.
Well, that Church is an active TODAY political institution.
That Church clerics are blessing people in Ukraine TODAY to go and kill infidels in Donbass, in full accordance with “natio deleatur” principle. And the person who established that principle is TODAY considered Saint.
That Church also is doing quite funny things TODAY like gay marriage or comparing Christ with Satan. I would not say that is necessarily a bad thing to do for an outsider, but for the clerics of the Church? If they can ignore their holy texts on this, then how they can be expected to abide by them for other matters?
But sure, let’s just embrace everyone everywhere.
Because well what was yesterday is not today and what was hour ago is not now.
> or comparing Christ with Satan.
This seems to be mistranslation stemming from different ambiguos translations of “lucifer” for Latin to modern languages.
This claim is retracted.
There is a deep racialist element to this thing you’ve called PBS? I can’t quite get to the bottom of it. It has the whiff of pre-war cultic super-man ideology.
To explain further: I never have had a[n online] discussion with an Eastern European without astonishment being expressed as to why Britons like myself have an affinity with the Commonwealth, and all that that entails in terms of organic and historical relations with other parts of the world and its people of (skin) colour, and even prefer it to the political arrangement whereby the UK is suddenly colonised by millions with whom there has been no such shared cultural development. At least we’re white, is the main selling point. So what? It doesn’t land, of course – I just can’t get into the head of someone like that to be able to imagine the subsequent frustration. Very rudimentary racism then follows – even from people who appear to otherwise have an intellect. Furthermore, I keep hearing reports about the same unembarrased racism. When I had the misfortune of experiencing it in person, I found it seriously unabashed. There’s something primordal in that strip of mud from whence these folk are coming, and it can’t be got to the bottom of at a distance. This is much to our disadvantage.
“There’s something primordal in that strip of mud from whence these folk are coming.”
Oh really, getting to the bottom :-))))
I note that the coming together of the Polish authorities and the Kiev Junta conveniently doesn’t mention the events of 1943-45 in Eastern Galicia and Volhynia. Of course, it must be acutely embarrassing to the leadership of both countries that the period in question bore witness to a murderous campaign by the Banderite forces, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) which was responsible for the ethnic cleansing and mass murder of Polish peasants estimated to have been between 75000 and 100000. A disgusting piece of political opportunism; but then what do you expect from these people.
very lucid article about a thorny issue-Polish & Ukrainian revanchism-this virus is being used by Germany & France to move towards war-or test the mettle of Russia-disengage and arm-they are so irrational that i do not see how they can compete in the modern world
“this virus is being used by Germany & France”
Nuland and Company is from the US faction of the Anglo-Zionist camp.
Excellent! Especially that third-last paragraph, beginning, “One more thing”…..except that I would sure like to see Canada connected to that Silk Road through our north, somehow.
Great article.
I do hope the Russian people feel that a majority of Americans realize that the current state of Russophobia is a Democrat/Communist invention, meant only to keep the arms factories churning.
At the historical heart of Polish Russophobia, is, (as per The Saker’s point 5), the split between the Catholic and the Orthodox churches. Which, in my unproven opinion, justified the Vatican’s hatred of the Soviet Union, more than of Communism itself. The role of the Polish pope Woytila in the dissolution of the Soviet Union is unquestioned.
There exists in every country a “lumpenproletariat” of the mind – easily steered towards any fashionable insanity. It instinctually refuses any analysis, for it lacks the will and the necessary analytical tools (nor is invited to acquire them). It is exemplified by George Carlin’s skit on advertising and the malls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSDU8Laoi2U
It also exists, of course in the US of A, though here the drivers of Russophobia have a lot to gain by infecting with it the lumpenproletariat of the mind.
I am, however, puzzled and specifically pleased by the stance that the current government of Poland has taken towards the Zionist funded and promoted migrants’ invasion of Europe. Considering that the actual pope is preaching miscegenation, in sync with the Talmudists. And that he even recently included two Talmudist rabbis in an important Vatican congregation.
Should Talmudist goals conflate with Vatican goals and superstition, I am afraid we are fried – and probably Poland too, more than it is already.
“government of Poland has taken towards the Zionist funded and promoted migrants’ invasion of Europe”
Polish government is steered by Zionists. The driving issue being that Poland is taking in a lot of Western Ukrainians and their budgets simply can not handle more free loaders. National Debt is going strongly up.
http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2014-09-03-GDPPolandUkraine.jpg
They know that if they push more with refugees the place might blow. Political party PIS took over from PO (Tusk was rewarded by being sent to Brussels by Merkel) only because shit started to come out. The little guy was catching on and obviously few would vote for them. However I think the Zionist handlers pulled the right strings to make this change happen. Now a US/Israel-centric faction is running the show there.
@alex Thank you for the clarification. I was, of course, only judging superficially and from the outside.
No problem. Its near impossible to follow all that is happening and that did happen :-)
That’s why I like data based comments.
From my understanding and contacts, Poland is in deep dudu and DOES NOT realize it. I am referring to the population because the so called “polish politicians” do know they are in dudu.
““…We’ll get in conflict with the Germans, Russians and we’ll think that everything is super, because we gave the Americans a blow job. Losers. Complete losers.”
http://inside-poland.com/t/secret-sikorski-recording-plunges-polands-government-further-into-crisis/
The puppet and his Jewish wife were rapidly evacuated to US after this came out. Now who wiretapped the restaurant ???????? That is a mystery.
@voltaire1964
Yes, towards the end the elements purify and separate, the slack on top, the gold at the bottom hidden from sight. A very nice move by the Papacy to return to it’s roots, in fact a Rabbi should be the next Pope, then the circle will be closed and a 2000 year period will come to it’s conclusion.
RE: lengthy article about dealing with Polish Syndrome.
First diagnosis.
1. Phobia usually describes fear which has no factual reason. In case of Russia this “phobia” is rather consequence how Soviet Union which author identifies with Russia, dealt with Poland and Polish people, before, during and after WW2. At the beginning of WW2 Soviets cooperated with Hitler and expelled few hundred thousand polish speaking people to Kazakhstan and Siberia. Same of them were my friends. In the period between 1939-1941, when Soviets (Russians?) cooperated with Hitler, Russians (Soviets in KGB and NKVD) shot over 20,000 Polish Officers who were POW in Soviet hands. My uncle was one of them. Soviet blamed it on the Germans, but admitted that they did it in 1998).
2. Yes, Polish consider themselves parts of Western Culture, which in case of Poland is indicated by Latin alphabet and Roman Catholic Church. Poland in history had a long period of elected kings, some of the German origin (Saxons) and others from Hungary (Stefan Batory). Russian through its history had only depots, called Tsars.
3. Poland in the history was not always defeated. Once Poles occupied Kremlin in Moscow (1610-1612) and defeated Soviet Army in 1920 on footsteps of Warsaw, saving this way Western Europe from linking Soviets with Germen communists. In 1989 Polish peaceful workers movement “Solidarity” disintegrated Soviet (Russian) Empire and create Europe as it is, including united Germany.
4. If there is deep seated inferiority complex it is toward the West, never to the East or Russia.
5.No body I know dreams about uniting Orthodox Church with Papacy. For all people I know this maybe important for Pope in Rome, but nobody in Poland.
6. Yes, there is fear in the Government about Russia trying to reestablish control over Poland, which is not shared in most of population. I believe that Poland is not primary target of Russian concerns, as it was in 18,19 and 20 century. Primary object of Russian concern is Ukraine, and there is a place when WW3 may happen.
7. Yes, Poland look for US as a partner who will defend Poland from Russian imperialistic expansion, but again this may be opinion of current Polish government, not majority of People. They would like to travel and trade with Russian with as little governmental obstacles as possible. I am afraid that some circles in US may use Poland and Poles to interfere in Russian-Ukrainian conflict. This will end up with tragic consequences for Poland, and Ukraine and maybe to the rest of Europe.
I would advise author to read more about history of Eastern Europe, specifically Poland and Ukraine, before writing long and full of errors epistle about this region of Europe.
Some have inferiority complexes, some are warped with delusions of grandeur, the pindos suffer a great degree of this malaise, as well.
Since 1998 what effort has been made for Poland to establish trade and travel with Russia?
And why would Poland send troops to Ukraine to kill Russians in Donbass?
And why are you afraid of Russia who for 20 years under Putin has tried everything to get along with all of Eastern Europe?
You don’t really think Russia wants to take the old Soviet empire back, do you?
Clearly, for the near term, Saker’s article and its suggestions make the most sense.
Poland has a lot of internal development to do.
All we see is the militarization and gleeful use of the Polish military as a NATO vassal.
Poles are not as whacked out as the Ukies, but since they line up on the battlefield as brothers with the Ukies, Russia and Donbass has to regard them as a dual menace.
You will be lucky if you don’t trigger a military disaster for yourselves.
NATO has never won anywhere, and Ukraine certainly won’t be any different.
It will be one huge cauldron if your tanks roll there.
Stick to the West and watch Eurasia grow and develop. You might learn that you are just a useful tool for the Hegemon in Washington.
“Stick to the West and watch Eurasia grow and develop. You might learn that you are just a useful tool for the Hegemon in Washington.”
I feel strongly disposed to believe that being a useful tool at the Zionazis’ disposal is exactly what boosts the “national pride” of the Psheks. Total bootlickers.
Janczek says:
> 1. Phobia usually describes fear which has no factual reason. In case of Russia this “phobia” is rather consequence how Soviet Union which author identifies with Russia, dealt with Poland and Polish people, before, during and after WW2.
Good.
Now, this “Soviet Union which author identifies with Russia” hints that Janczek himself tells Russia and USSR apart.
Then all the “consequences of how USSR dealt” should not apply to Russia.
Then expanding fear of USSR into current Russia-phobia is void of factual reasons.
> At the beginning of WW2 Soviets cooperated with Hitler
At the beginning of WW2 Poles cooperated with Hitler, to
1. Push USSR out of European politics
2. Destroy European diplomacy by pioneering and promoting bilateral no-limits pact with Their Reich
3. Repeatedly destroying USSR+UK+France attempts to create anti-Hitler collective defense framework. Molotov-Ribentropp pact was just the LAST of the series of those Poland-crafted pacts.
4. Invading and destroying Checkoslovakia so that Hitler could obtain best European tank plants of the era
Also, before WW2 Poles invaded Ukraine violating internationally recognized Curzone Line and illegally occupying Ukrainian lands. Well, between 1918 and 1937 Poland invaded many of its neighbors, making chilled-out and snobbish Britts to go as explicit as “greedy hyena” took much of effort.
When to mid-September 1939 state of Poland ceased to exists and thus released the previously criminally occupied lands east of Curzone Line, USSR reclaimed them.
But of course, censoring of all those events and pretending the world was CREATED on 17.09.1939 is a required property of PBS…..
2. Yes, Polish consider themselves parts of Western Culture….. Poland in history had a long period of elected kings, some of the German origin (Saxons) and others from Hungary (Stefan Batory). Russian through its history had only despots, called Tsars.
Sure, in the Absolutism era elections were absolutely western thing. LOL.
BTW Romanov family was exactly elected, after Pole-driven coup failed, after few bloody years of trying to violate the negotiated terms and impose Catholic rulers in Moscow.
One also forgets quite a long Russian history before first Tsar (Caesar) emerged.
Typically for PBS, the world was only created where it suits and never existed before.
3. Poland in the history was not always defeated.
Wow, so unique! I bet almost EVERY nation had its moments.
However the global Poland goal of become supreme Slavic power – failed.
Once much stronger than Russia attacked be Germanic Knight Ordeals and Mongolic Hordes, once assimilated Lithuanian (Belarussian) principality, once even negotiating Polish royal family in Moscow throne… At the pinnacle of their might….
….they decided themselves almighty and decided to violate negotiated terms.
> Once Poles occupied Kremlin in Moscow (1610-1612)
…once poles were INVITED into Kremlin, and their backstabbed locals to override the terms.
> and defeated Soviet Army in 1920 on footsteps of Warsaw,
…..after violating Curzone Line and trying to occupy Ukrainian and Belarussian lands since February 1919.
But in total score, Poland indeed did better and managed to keep part of illegally occupied lands until 1939.
> saving this way Western Europe from linking Soviets with Germen communists.
Yep, and when in 1939 Poles invaded Czechoslovakia they just merely prevented Czechoslovakian communists to side with German communists and threated Europe. Sounds legit.
In 1919 Poland not only invaded Ukraine, it engaged two more neighbors – and they did it only to save Western Europe, as usual.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Lithuanian_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Czechoslovak_War
I wonder, if there was a single Polish neighbor but Germany in 1920-s that was not grave threat to Western Europe, requiring Polish saving invasion…
> No body I know dreams about uniting Orthodox Church with Papacy. For all people I know this maybe important for Pope in Rome, but nobody in Poland.
Perhaps true. Maintaining clear split between Byzantine Christianity, which is associated with Russia, and Catholicism should be important for overall “we are West, we are not Russia” Polish identity.
Actual process would rather be converting Byzantine Christians into Catholics, including forceful re-appropriation of their churches and even communities, including calls to kill them on sight, as Greek-Catholic Church and Kiev Church in Ukraine do.
> Primary object of Russian concern is Ukraine, and there is a place when WW3 may happen.
Just like prospects of WW2 when two most advanced nations of Europe – Poles and Germans – were expecting to push underdeveloped Russian savage from the Ukraine in 1938.
And would Poles not overestimate themselves in Dantzig – that could easily come true.
> Poland look for US as a partner who will defend Poland from Russian imperialistic expansion
No difference from 1938….
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Польша_показала_Ивану_его_место.jpg
Funny thing how that old Polish cartoon shows the typical Doublethink of today.
On one hand, USSR is despotia, which suppresses Russian people (largely true).
On another hand, those are not Georgian dictators but the Russian peoples they dictate upon who are rendered subhumans somehow responsible and needed to be punished.
When one needs to talk bold and pretend White Knight – the USSR is despotia suppressing Russian people. When one stops talking goes to grab neighbor’s lands and subdue dehumanized locals – suddenly USSR becomes true democracy and Russian people responsible for it.
Nothing changed.
> some circles in US may use Poland and Poles to interfere in Russian-Ukrainian conflict.
“may use”
“may”. One summer day. In some future unlucky year.
Like to the moment Poland was not part in EuroMaidan coup and Polish PMC were not fighting in Donbass.
Again, the world was created only yesterday and no prior history ever existed, that is crucial for PBS sectarian world view.
2: Adopting a Middle Eastern cult transforms the Poles into a western people? Really? Had the Poles become Japanese if they had voted instead for shintoism?
You said the use of the Latin alphabet westernized the Poles – if such a thing were possible. Now please tell me why it didn’t turn them into Italians? Or Etruscans, since the Romans took it from them. Or better Greks etc…?
Let’s not mention the archeological and linguistic evidence about their pretended western extraction. Why bother with facts when you can live in your own drramland?
Saker I will agree with most of your 7 points with regard to Poland because they reflect the general psychosis in Poland. That’s what happens when your on the Grinding Axis of History.
But I would be willing to bet (though no way to verify who would win) that Russia would be in a similar condition as Poland today if not a lot worst then it was in 1990 if,
1) it was butting against Germany (Poland never existed) geographically
2) and most importantly coupled with 1), the Russian State was captured by the Zionist element (200 yrs. Together)
As I read history and observed what has been happening in this part of the world since beginning of the XX century I see a damping effect of Poland on the Western Invaders. Thus helping Russia. If the starting point for Hitler’s WWII venture was the border with Soviet Union you might have had half of Russia speaking German today.
Poland is a divided country but from afar one will not see this. A Humpty-Dumpty which for the foreseeable future will not be ALLOWED in peace to heal it’s wounds of 123 yrs. of Partitions. The Partitions of Poland was a germanic affair. Catherin the Great was a german !!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland
Who is stopping Poland from healing and being sovereign? Anglo-Zionists and their Zionist elements in the population taking key position in the running of the country on all levels since start of XX century. Lets look at some obvious examples of this.
President Duda. A common “totem element” used by the Zionists to show the World that THEY are in power is the wife of the leader. This is not a coincidence. I do not believe in coincidences on this level of history.
Agata Kornhauser-Duda, Here is her father’s bio,
“Julian Kornhauser
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Julian Kornhauser (born 20 September 1946 in Gliwice, Poland) is a Polish poet and literary critic.
He was born to Jewish father and a Catholic mother,[1] as a son of Jakub and Małgorzata Kornhauser.” The magic word is here.
Now for a second example that ideally fits with the first. In 2014 Israeli Knesset held a session IN POLAND !!! Could Polish or German parliamentary body hold one in USA ? I bet not. But Israel did it. http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.570333
At this “special” meeting is to be found Duda who will shortly after this become the President of Poland !!!
http://gazetawarszawska.com/images/Knes4.jpg
Coincidence ? CNN/BBC watcher might believe that.
These types of examples there can be found in the hundreds. The language barrier will not allow Westerners to understand what is going on there because the best information describing what is going on in a given country is found on local blogs and websites.
Poland is and was a Captured State. It allowed itself to be captured the moment it allowed the Jews to settle there and gave “these Aliens” a status that even its own people didn’t have. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Kalisz
When the Teutonic Knights fought the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania at Battle of Grunwald the error was made of NOT pursuing them and destroying them to the last knight and last brick in their castles. These two huge errors have haunted this country ever since. The rest is a slow process of removing the bricks from the countries foundation over the centuries. Germany dominates Poland today. Tusk is/was the agent of that.
For people who refer to Poland/Poles as “Euro-trash” or ” pile of vomit” I say look in the mirror. You are describing yourself. If you’re a German just look what Merkel is doing to you. If you’re a Brit enjoy the Kebab and minarets. If you’re American see if your children can change their job today on a dime.
Love reading your website.
Alex,
Thanks for your comment. Some good material here.
I think a major “rub” for East Europeans is the grit, the inner strength of Russian people.
Though many EEs are Slavic, few compare to Russians in the determination of resisting the destruction of their civilization by Liberalism. The Serbs are a great people because, though their national government has been stolen, we all know where the Serbian people stand vis a vis Russia.
The Poles and Baltic people are “free” and yet are enslaved by Russophobia spoon-fed to them by the US/Khazarians who want them, like the Ukies, to be cannon fodder proxies against Russian guns.
LNG is the new LSD. You pay more to America for less and call yourself “free” people.
Prostitutes think this way to survive. They give up their self, their core dignity, in rationalization.
The Russian soul is incapable of such surrender.
Americans once had a bit of that. The last several generations have lost that spirit. And they have spread the disease to their vassals. Submission to godless power of elites is not Liberty.
We who are not Russian admire what is clear and evident today. Russians are truly the most crucial people on Earth at this moment in Time. They saved Syria and its many peoples. They are bolstering China and Iran in the Hegemonic War. The people and governments of Egypt and Libya are begging for their help. They have made a stand against Feudalism which all of Europe, East and West, have embraced. They stand against all of Liberalism and its venal deviations from human norms. And they do it with equanimity.
“I think a major “rub” for East Europeans is the grit, the inner strength of Russian people.”
I think East Europeans are in a trans and simply do not understand where the Devil is hiding. They have been made to believe it is Russia. They are the victoms of an information war that has been going on for centuries.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3011.htm
Russians are no worst than any racist Aussi or a KKK loving southerner. When the shit hits the fan I would rather be around Russians than any current Americans or French. The rugged American is a lost species and the West is a swamp full of pampered kids. I would rather have a Russian friend than a Frenchman as I have first hand experience with both.
Now I have my theory why Russians have not become a “jello” culturally over all these centuries. Their geography. Penetration of cultures (Greek/Latin) radiated West-South-North initially from around the Mediterranean. The North-Eastern regions which we call today Russia did not have hospitable climate and ease of movement to make it a preferred direction of penetration.
Just look at the map of “The trade network of the Radhanites (medieval Jewish merchants)”
http://imgur.com/Nqo1U
You can vividly see this. Thus the processes of “softening up” worked on Poland much more and much longer than on what we call today Russia. Jews had a hand in this softening process. As pertaining to Russia this story is nicely laid out in “200 yrs Together”. Personally I could give a hoot about “antisemitism” label coming out in mentioning this because I know it is used JUST TO SILENCE. Hence it is an indicator of not wanting to debate.
However the effect of the Jews can not be ignored. They had a huge effect but at times this effect was camouflaged. Today they owned the presses and sizable portion of Mass Media. A story not printed does not survive is not heard over the horizon. If heard will most likely not be believed. Hollywood film industry is screwing with American’s and others so elegantly that sometimes the Jews themselves had to come out and say enough. The Image on the screen is magic at its best. That map of trade routs shows that central Europe was in greater contact with the West than the regions of what we call today Russia. Thus Russia was insulated for much longer and what trickled in trickled in slow.
From a different barrel, I came across a great article about slave trade and Jews here,
https://www.darkmoon.me/2017/once-only-blacks-were-enslaved-now-we-all-are/
which eventually (many Google searches) got me to here,
http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/Perspectives_1/article_7181.shtml
I remember this huge spat between the Nation of Islam and the Jewish community in the US. At the time I had no clue what it was all about EXACTLY but today I do. And hell I am shocked how much has been neatly swept under the rug in the US. The same was done in Eastern Europe and Europe in general.
But we got tired. Quite tired.
Good example: 1914: Serbian extremists helped Austro-Hungary start the World War, and Russian Empire set in. And was demolished.
….at least Serbian Church recognized that was a religious war on RI part and commenced the Tsar Nicholas 2 saint. Somewhat soothing.
You may recall Holy Alliance when Russia agreed to be European Police stabilizing against color revolutions of that time. Served us right. Russia is still recognized as oppressor and freedom-hater, because of that.
You may recall Bulgaria. Because their Christian people were suppressed by Muslim Ottoman Empire Russia started the what would be later classified as world wars against Turkey and their allies in oppressing Christians: England and France. Served us right. In both WW1 and WW2 Bulgaria fought against Russia.
Now when we hear that Russia could come and save someone we…
Well, lets calm down and be polite. We are less than enthusiastic.
Those who do not fight for their freedom do not cherish it.
Those who do not cherish their freedom are not to demand someone else fight for it.
I read biography of Tsar Nicholas II by XXXX (sorry but I do not recall the author). What I came away with was that Nicolas should have never been a Tsar. He completely did not understand power and temperamentally was not fit to be a leader of a country. Was probable put to sleep in believing that Russia could do anything because He was loved and Russia was so Big.
Putin is ideal because he understands power from observed what goes on behind the curtain (spy). He was a poor kid who had to learn to fight, tough mind. And he is disciplined which is required if you worked for the KGB.
“Those who do not fight for their freedom do not cherish it.
Those who do not cherish their freedom are not to demand someone else fight for it.”
This is always true. Always. If someone comes to your door and promises to make life a heaven look out. The problem is that the pros at this are NEVER this direct. Thus only history can help you.
Yep, that last tsar is a perfect example for the proverb “good person does not yet constitute a profession”
Hi Saker, thank you for analysing my question and taking the time to issue such a detailed reply. I cannot help but agree with most of the assessments in the piece – Polish literature is littered with examples of glorification of martyrdom, messianism etc. There is a huge degree of pomposity and pathos in Polish cultural heritage, no argument.
Some counter-points, however, if you please:
1. Polish, as a nation, do not harbour any hatred of Russians. It is a view alien to me and I have countless examples from my own life, and my friends’, to show that there is a deep undercurrent of love running between Russians and Poles. Although we are different, we are close enough to appreciate, and admire, the differences. Government propaganda be damned.
2. Exploiting any anti-Russian sentiment is not difficult – as you well know our mutual history is far from straightforward and there are examples of all kinds of violence and treachery form both sides. I read a comment on the thread where I left my question, where readers were adamant Poles lived comfortably under Russian administration during the Partitions. I know from my family history that it was untrue. Someone else suggested that Poland’s most prosperous time was under Stalin; again, that’s simply incorrect. There is a lot of bad blood in collective memory on both sides.
3. The “do nothing” strategy is fruitless and far too risky. The reason I asked my initial question was that I love Russians and Russia like a brotherly nation you are. But, taking into account the tarnished history and also deeper (and trust me, real) love between people on the ground, I would see the “do nothing” strategy as grist for the mill of Russophobic propaganda. In other words – if you do not see Poland and Polish people as a partner, then you only see them as either subservient, or a hostile target. If so, why are you surprised at the negative propaganda? The same goes for Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. No Russian neighbour could face the Russian might, military, or political; given the history they are obviously anxious because there are no constructive messages coming out of Moscow to give traction to pro-Russian sentiments. They’re dealing with a Sphinx, for all they know, and one with massive big claws and teeth.
I dare not justify the vitriol and the idiotic schemes coming out of Polish political sphere (Smolensk crash, the “decommunication” madness) because those are just ramblings of crazy folk. But the more you clam up and withdraw, the more you prove them right, I am sorry to say.
I would suggest that Moscow should issue a formal statement of cooperation and a formal foreign policy strategy towards its neighbours. Show the people on the ground, who are all for peace and good relations all around, that you can compete with the US in terms of influence, that you want those nations in your corner and that you care. I know it must feel like lowering oneself, and it kind of is. But be a bigger man – it will pay off. Doing that would drive a stake through the heart of the propaganda monster in Poland and the Baltics (run from Germany & US, obviously) and give actual framework to a plan for long-term cooperation and reconciliation.
Failing that, there will never be a thaw in the relations because suspicions will linger. Russia should know better. I can only hope that the deepening mistrust is not a deliberate strategy from Moscow and that we can be partners at some point. Maybe I am being desperately naiive but I think we are well overdue for a pan-Slavic awakening and I feel we do not cherish / exchange our mutual cultures any anywhere near enough. There has been enough bad blood already and I know there are plenty enough people on both sides who are more than ready to work together,
Anyway – god bless and thank you for the piece, even if I do pray that your views change with time.
“Doing that would drive a stake through the heart of the propaganda monster in Poland and the Baltics (run from Germany & US, obviously) and give actual framework to a plan for long-term cooperation and reconciliation.”
No it won’t. No way. The Zionist V Column is firmly in control of Polish media. The rest (mainstream) of the media is in German hands.
Current owner of one of the top newspapers in Poland. I suspect the money was to given him from the West as in the case of Khodorkovsky with Yukos.
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grzegorz_Hajdarowicz
Key man in charge of another leading newspaper in Poland Mr. Michnik called “Gazerta Wyborcza”
“Adam Michnik was born in Warsaw, Poland, to a family of Jewish communists.[2] His father Ozjasz Szechter was First Secretary of the Communist Party of Western Ukraine, and his mother Helena Michnik was a historian, communist activist, and children’s-book author. His step-brother on his mother’s side, Stefan Michnik, was a communist judge in the 1950s, during the Stalinist period, and passed death sentences on Polish resistance-movement soldiers. His step-brother on his father’s side, Jerzy Michnik (born 1929), settled in Israel after 1957 and then moved to New York.[2]”
http://legionisci.com/photos11w/11lech2T_f11.jpg
and on and on …..
Now lets look at the German ownership of media in Poland which is seen in a graph here,
https://www.ft.com/content/4344ca44-0b94-11e6-9cd4-2be898308be3?mhq5j=e3
I draw the conclusion (though more data is available) that to affect the mindset of the Polish population will be next to impossible because it is MEDIA that SHAPES peoples opinions.
So I would council Russia by saying “For get it. This is something that Poland needs to work on.” If the Poles can not see that they are being treated as lower class humans by the West then there is no help . To see how they are treated is not hard to do IF one has the natural inclination to be curious because the information is not secret. But also one needs to draw the conclusions from the information which is a bigger hurdle.
1) No visa free entry to US
2) No assistance by West when the Smolensk plane crashed (NONE)
3) On a personal level the case of Mr. Dziekanski in Canada. Man dies and the worst that happened to one of the perps is,
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/robert-dziekanski-taser-death-kwesi-millington-sentenced-to-30-months-for-perjury-1.3122941
(Nice manipulation showing that the mom was happy about this. Sorry but she was not.)
4) The case of Gestapo officer named Frank Walus show how justice is served. The person was 17 yrs. old when the war started in 1939 !!!!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1981/05/10/the-nazi-who-never-was/6632839d-51a9-4067-ac9b-e93027da41b5/?utm_term=.16004bcba6f1
……
You’ve touched on a few important points, I will respond in turn:
1. Yes, it is the media and the political class which fans Russophobia. It’s not hard to do, because of the historical experiences – the partitions, and WWII (Ribbentrop-Molotov, the invasion of 17/09/39, Warsaw Uprising etc.). But the fact that this narrative is now in overdrive (Smolensk, “decommunisation”) demonstrate to me that it is not gaining popular traction. In fact, the ferocity is counter-productive.
2. Media used to shape people’s opinions, yes. But even the fact that we are having this debate here, and not on GW’s website (don’t even know if they allow BTL comments, not been in years) should tell you the centre of gravity has shifted to the internet outlets. read comments on Onet.pl or even WP.pl. Very few are buying the Russian bogeyman story nowadays.
3. Polish feel like they are treated as second-class because of their own complexes. They position themselves in this way, with the constant scramble for attention and recognition; the Poles will hang onto and cherish any mention that gives them credit in Western eyes. Somehow, they need this validation for whatever stupid reason. What is strange, is that the British (especially the English) suffer from the same complex. Anything that validates their place in the world (“small island that punches above it’s weight” BS) is like manna from heaven. However, this is beginning to change for both the Poles and the British, even. I see it up close as I’ve lived in the UK for two decades.
4. I don’t expect Moscow to come with flowers and song and make Poland their bestest friends all of a sudden. What I am suggesting is that they position themselves formally. Make statement of where they stand vis-a-vis Warsaw. What the plan is, what the policy is, what the perceived standing is between the two states. People already get on famously. You should see the amount of Russians visiting Poland all year round; they keep coming back because they are genuinely welcome. What Moscow should do is ping that ball in Poland’s court. The least it will achieve is lay bare the prejudice and I can tell you that if Moscow come out and say “Poland is our valued partner, we envisage close cooperation in economic sphere with full recognition of sovereignty and with enhancing our deep cultural links” that will pull the pants of Russophobes right down to their ankles. There may be silence in the official press but it will resonate massively in Poland and also abroad.
Mateusz Piskorski is still being held under arrest in Warsaw. He leads the “Zmiana” (Change) party in Poland which favours the pivot towards the East over the Atlantic policy. His very existence was deemed so threatening to Polish state’s policy that he has been under arrest with no charges for over a year now. If Russophobia was as prevalent and American factor so potent as it is being said amongst the Poles, there would never be a need to keep him under lock and key. He could be the Polish Nemtsev for all they care, a token jester, laughed at and ridiculed. But both Warsaw, and Washington, know well that the reach of those ideas and traction they get is far too dangerous.
If Moscow come out fighting and formally position their relationship, current and future, versus Warsaw they will force the other side to declare where they stand. That will be horribly inconvenient for them as they would be between the rock (Washington) and hard place (Polish public opinion).
There are some assumptions here:
1. Moscow actually entertains a long-term partnership with Poland. This is a million dollar question. Those guys are mature enough to overlook slights and stupidity if there is a genuine long-term business interest at stake. Moscow, I mean. If they see strategic value in having a partnership with Poland, they will work towards it.
2. There is much we don’t know. If assumption 1 is correct, there may be reasons why Moscow would work in a different way to directly exposing the Polish government. It is safe to say they have a much broader and more detailed picture than we do so I assume there are reasons for that.
One last tidbit – the current political class coalesced around the mythos of their participation in the system change of 1989. They paint themselves as the veterans who fought against the old, “communist” oppressive regime and brought Poland back into the light of democracy. There is a very obvious interest for them to also paint Russia as the aggressor or as a meddler at best. Essentially, they’re pulling a Kim Il Sung / Mao. The propaganda against the PRL past is huge for them because it further cements their image as liberators of Poland from the eastern oppressors. It’s not personal, it’s business. On the flip side, some of the changes in social policy they have brought in are genuinely good and, besides the Russian angle, they have actually shown themselves to represent Polish social interest surprisingly well. In many ways, Polish state is now much more attentive to social ills and wants than PO ever were, or wanted to be. I am convinced there is a way forward towards positive relationship with Russia because not all in the current government are rabid fools they are depicted. Sorry for another long post :-)
Wow, now somehow Russians are guilty of Warsaw Uprising too!
http://www.bards.ru/archives/part.php?id=24512
No really, why wagging the dog is considered a natural right?
Why Big Boys, when it is about decision making, are never Big Boys when it comes to responsibility for their own decisions?
> the current political class…. paint themselves as the veterans who fought against the old, “communist” oppressive regime
oookay….
> There is a very obvious interest for them to also paint Russia as the aggressor or as a meddler at best.
Is it so? Perhaps it is.
To put it together:
!!! There is a very obvious interest for the current Polish political class to paint Russia as a meddler.
And because of that:
> Moscow [should] come out fighting and formally position their relationship, current and future, versus Warsaw
> [Moscow should] will force Warsaw to declare where they stand
In other terms, Moscow should BECOME the meddler, which is “a very obvious interest for the current Polish political class”.
Sounds like a plan…..
> What I am suggesting is that [Moscow] position themselves formally.
> Make statement of where they stand vis-a-vis Warsaw.
> What the plan is, what the policy is,
IOW Russia should surrender its “war plans” to the NATO intelligence, so to speak.
Formally declared “red lines” are nothing but remote control units.
When Obama declared Syrian chemical weapons as the sole reason USA is going at war with Syria – he surrendered the RCU to America into Assad/Putin hands.
And they pushed the button – they made Europe (OPCW) pay for transporting and reprocessing of obsolete Syrian chemical weapons and made America cancel their war plans.
Now, you suggest that Russia would turn itself into the robot, that would predictably react in the documented what to any input West would compile.
Sadly that can not be done. Russia is underdog here. Russia is incomparably weaker in all those matters. It just can not worsen its situation by giving control of its behavior into Western hands.
Once Putin said Russia would support eastern Ukrainians – West started committing demonstrative massacres. Mariupol, Odessa, Lugansk, and so forth.
Putin let himself pull a string out – and that string was momentarily caught by the West. At that point West was demonstrating inhuman ethnocide measure taken towards non-EuroMaidan ukrainians, and Putin was relentlessly attacked for being “soft” and “weak” and “only talk no action” and “traitorous” and “selling Ukrainians cheap” and what not.
He did not even “published officially” his “plan and policies” – and it still was plaued to his huge disadvantages.
Now, you want Putin to make the same blunter w.r.t. Poland? I hope he learnt his lesson hard way.
PS. And the very assumption that Russia being alone can successfully challenge USA and all their vassals combined money-force and PR-force is a bit stretched.
SunriseState: ….because of the [painful Polish] historical experiences ….. Warsaw Uprising etc
So, Warsaw Uprising….
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tempest
The Red Army was mercilessly pushing the Wehrmacht towards the west, and the headquarters of AK decided to launch Operation Tempest (Plan Burza): a series of local uprisings, whose purpose was to seize control of cities and areas where German forces were preparing their defence against the Soviet Red Army, so that Polish underground civilian authorities could take power before the arrival of the Soviets.
“….could take power before the arrival of the Soviets.”
So, the whole point of this action was – anti-Soviet.
The purpose of this action was to subvert Soviet plans whatever those would be.
Who was ordering that anti-Soviet action then?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising
….political objectives were to liberate Warsaw before the Soviets, to underscore Polish sovereignty by empowering the Polish Underground State before the Soviet-backed communist Polish Committee of National Liberation could assume control.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tempest
….the Polish government in exile and the Home Army’s current commander, General Tadeusz Bór-Komorowski, decided that the last chance for regaining Poland’s independence was to open an uprising in Warsaw. On July 21, 1944, Bór-Komorowski ordered that the Warsaw Uprising begin at 17:00 hours on August 1, 1944. The political goal was to emphasize for the Allies the existence of the Polish government and Polish civil authorities. Warsaw was to be taken in order to allow the legitimate Polish government to return from exile to Poland.
So let us make it sink, drop by drop.
The (in)famous Armija Krajowa,
that deserted from German Front to Persia in 1942,
and spending the years there safely while Soviet Army was bleeding destroying Wehrmacht singlehandedly,
now at the order of London Government (of new Poland to be created),
and to the favor of London Government,
and in order to subvert Soviet plans
and intending to take upper hand over Soviet-backed Government
and to reinstate Polish State that was before WW2 anti-Soviet and is today openly anti-Russian
….demands taking control of Soviet Army and to force Soviet soldiers unprepared and unequipped storm German fortress instead of Poles, so that London Poles could implement their anti-Soviet plans.
O_O
What damned kind of chuzpah that is???
You wanted to be anti-Soviet? That is okay, be as you much.
But demanding Soviets to implement your Soviet plans and making fuzz when they don’t – that is something surreal!
PS. http://www.translate.ru -> http://warhistory.livejournal.com/2262694.html
fixing typo
….But demanding Soviets to implement your >>> anti-Soviet<<< plans,…
I hope your optimism wins. I am not optimistic for you guys :-)
I will believe that things are going in a positive direction when,
1) When Poles among themselves start to negatively talk about today’s Germany and not blame Russia first.
2) When Poles see a threat resulting from US presence in Poland
3) When Poles boycott German and foreign stores for preference of Polish ones. The number of Lidl/ Rossman/… you have in Poland is breath taking. End result, Polish stores are disappearing.
4) Border with Ukraine has a restrictive visa regime.
5) Trade with Russia open to all in Poland versus the restrictive regime they have that is directed by Brussels.
I met a guy who had a small business making rod curtains. He was getting huge orders from Russian resulting in employment for 20 people. The Russians would come and PREPAY the full amount and just waited for a call to pickup the product. He tried doing business with some Ukrainians and it went like this. First was a small order and they paid when it was ready. Second time larger but when they picked up they paid only 70%. Rest later. Next order very large but they only paid half. Next order much larger but they never showed up.
When EU sanction on Russia came all lost their jobs and now only 3 people work there.
> Border with Ukraine has a restrictive visa regime.
EuroMaidan was willful destruction of Ukrainian industries by Ukrainian on the promise of Visa-less living and working in EU
A lot of EU officials took part in EuroMaidan, including Germany+France+Poland Foreign Ministers in the Last Supper at 21st February 2014
EU states should be enforced to hold their word, otherwise casserole-headed would rushing into Russia they hate and bemoan that much.
There are already too much of them here.
Hey Alex; I might be coming to late, not sure if anyone is still looking at this. I’ve a pretty busy time at work right now so any of my extra-curricular contributions are bang sketchy.
Anyway – what you mention in points 1. and 2. is already a reality. You mustn’t expect to see this kind of message in the mainstream, I hope so much is obvious. But, as I said, just scan the B TL comments on internet portals and you will see a snapshot of public sentiment. It matches both points.
Number 3. is a bit difficult. Polish stores have no chance in price wars against multinationals, it’s the same in the UK. There are some Polish chains (Zabka, ALTI, Biedronka – although not sure that one is Polish-based, though) but this will be a long way yet. I know more and more people are going back to buying Polish-made stuff but don’t have hard macro data to hand.
4. and 5. are a function of the Washington-driven foreign policy and have nothing to do with the will of the Polish society, I am afraid to say. What won PiS the election was their social program which is actually pretty good. There have been marked improvements in many areas. In the last set of protests they even did away with the ubiquitous masked disruptors (a must for any police showing in the West) so everything went peacefully. Polish tax office now works on a basis that if they fail to respond to an individual in the alloted time, their claim is void. Some long unresolved, massive, economical crimes were finally resolved and monies recouped. Tax collection has been markedly improved and receipt flow has massively improved. Even Macierewicz’s idea of territorial guard (semi-national service) is actually sound. Just goes to show a broken clock is right twice a day, I suppose.
Polish political class is so captured that regardless of who is in power, points 4. and 5. will never be decided in Warsaw. Not yet, at least, not for another few years. There is a long, long way to go but things are improving slowly. I will sounds like a broken record but Russia must make its own side of the story heard. At least give the Polish people and alternative viewpoint to consider.
For the moment the official Kremlin stance is so cryptic that it’s almost a “better the devil you know” scenario that’s being played out in Poland. The silence is deafening. At the same time the contempt in the comments here towards the Poles is rabid (“Poland is a vomit stain on the map”, “Psheks”, “hyenas”) so you can imagine what picture springs to mind. Now I know this is just a tiny, tiny minority and all Russians I know personally have been great guys. Just like all the Americans I know, by the way. But there is just no need for the insults. I’m not going to worry about that because it’s just bitterness talking.
As a last point – I don’t buy the emotional angle from many posters here, including the honorable Saker. I mean the “you’ve let us down, we have nothing to talk about, we don’t need you” angle. Russians are happy to talk to Saudis, Germans, EU, Erdogan – a vast array of states which are more or less dependent on the Empire. Some of them have poked a sharp stick directly in the Russian eye many a time in the past. Somehow, Kremlin can look past that when they need to. So don’t tell me Polish sins are just so grievous and the gulf so deep that we have nothing to discuss. That’s just childish. As I said, I hope this is not a reflection of the expansionist approach from Russia because with the current radio silence it could easily be construed this way.
Take your time as I will return to this page.
I’m not done with it :-)
SunrisesState
Writing comments takes me a bit of time however on this one I will drop you a reference to understand something. It all goes under the rubric “information warfare”.
“Hollywood’s War with Poland, 1939-1945” – by M.B.B. Biskupski
Best examples that come to mind is,
“The Big Lebowski”
“Battle of Britain”
is a 1969 British Second World War film directed by Guy Hamilton, and produced by Harry Saltzman and S. Benjamin Fisz.
“Meanwhile, to supplement Commonwealth forces, the RAF has been forming units of foreign pilots who have escaped German-occupied countries; the main difficulty is their lack of English-language skills. While on a training flight, a Free Polish squadron accidentally runs into an unescorted flight of German bombers. Ignoring the commands of their British training officer, they peel off one by one and shoot down several of the bombers. Park rewards them by elevating them to operational status, leading Dowding to do the same for the Canadian and Czech squadrons as well.”
I hope you know the history of the “London Parade” after WWII.
And I challenge you to watch this film and see if you catch my drift.
“The Looking Glass War (1970)”
Wow, just happened to watch the movie last night.
What is your analysis of Icebreaker.
> Russians are happy to talk to Saudis, Germans, EU, Erdogan
EU – huge economic block, largest foreign trade partner of Russia, can not be ignored
Also, EU includes Poland. So you may say Russia does talk with Poland if it talks with EU.
German – main economic force in EU, needed endpoint for OBOR, potential challenger to US-UK supremacy in EU and counterweight to Poland+Baltics American puppets. Also a gas hub for Europe, maybe the only one. Also Putin’s personal sweet spot, I think.
Saudi – huge financial body, that offered investments to our economy, that offered contracts with one of our core export industries – nuclear power, that is huge force on oil and gas markets important to us, that pulls a lot of strings to Wahhabi terrorists in Russia and Syria. Can not be ignored. Also, AFAIR those were Saudi officials visiting Moscow, how often those were Russian officials who visited Riyadh?
Turkey – large economic and military force at our borders, important destination for our tourists, situated at Russia-Syria logistics way, may be important for our gas trade diversification, is EU outcast so may be interested in creating alternative to EU, pulls strings to terrorists in Syria and Azerbaijan. Can not be ignored.
Also, letting their officials to Moscow is more or less safe. Even in case they would kill themselves over their own stubbornness, they would not make it a case to blame Russia. I can not say this about Poland officials.
If Polish official would visit Moscow it is a potential liability, another Nemtsov. And to counterweight that liability – what is Poland to offer?
I guess, Poland is put on the same shelf as France in terms of politics. A pretense-country, which actually is another American talking head. And one potentially dangerous as provocations engine.
Poland wants Polish politicians spoke with Russian colleagues? No problem, come to Moscow and speak. But I can not imagine WHAT Polish politicians can ever put on the table? If we want to make some negotiation with Poland, we have to do it with American officials, not Polish ones. Then what would be the reason to bear all the risks Polish officials going to Russia imminently has within? Just why to waste your ambassadors’ breath?
“I guess, Poland is put on the same shelf as France in terms of politics. A pretense-country, which actually is another American talking head.”
Sarkozy was no accident (check bio)
Macron is no accident. Hell Macron is even simpler to decipher. A guy out of nowhere takes France by a storm. But, oh that sweet word “but”,
“Macron paid €50,000 to buy himself out of his government contract in 2008, and left to work as an investment banker in a highly-paid position at Rothschild & Cie Banque.”
Just a small detail :-)
Dear SunriseState,
Let me begin with sharing with you something which might very much surprise you: I used to be a supporter of Solidarnosc! I was even a Solidarnosc activist for a while: I was actively involved with Polish emigres in Switzerland were I helped them organize protests and help refugees, especially after the coup by Jaruzelski. Needless to say, in 1981 (I was 18 years old idiot!) I had no idea at all about the role the CIA played in all this. I was a typical rabid anti-Communist totally believing that the “Soviets” were a “threat” to the “Free World”. But nevermind that, my point is that I never harbored any anti-Polish sentiments and that I even was an active supporter of the Polish people and their right to be free. I also know the Polish people very very well, personally.
However, my naive and, frankly, stupid illusions all came crashing down after 1991 when I realize that Poles, as many others, did not see Communism as the threat, but Russia and the Russian people. Nowadays in Russia they often say “show me an anti-Soviet person and I will show you a russophobe”. I am one of these few exceptions: I was always an anti-Soviet activist but, unlike most so-called “dissidents” I never was anti-Russian. Poland however, was not anti-Soviet, Poland was “anti-me”. As were so many other East Europeans.
Now I do understand that a painful history and years of Bolshevik rule could make things worse, just as the German Empire, the Japanese Empire or the AngloZionist Empire often trigger anti-German, anti-Japanese or anti-American feelings, but while this is humanly understandable, this is also totally unacceptable because it ignores the single most important fact about Empires: they are first and foremost terrible for those who host them. The Russians were FAR MORE a victim of the Bolshevik regime than the Poles or the Ukrainians or the Balts, far far more. But that is something our (now former) “brothers in oppression” chose to ignore. Just like the Poles still choose to ignore the truth about the shameful role Poland played in Russian history.
Because of this I, and I believe most Russians, have given up on our western neighbors. We wish them well, but we don’t want to deal with them and their paranoid hatred anymore.
Do you really believe that anybody in Russia believes that issuing a “statement of collaboration” will do any good at all?
I think that we, Russians, are basically done with the West. Keep your Jesuits, your cardinals, your Nazis, your CIA paid democrats, your Zionist politicians, your Anglo imperialists, your capitalist system, your racist contempt for everybody who is not like you (including your belief that “Europe” is “civilized” and “Asia” “despotic) – take all of it and just LEAVE US ALONE!
We won’t invade, oppress, threaten or otherwise aggravate you, but neither do we want to compete with the USA for “influence” – you like them, they like you – enjoy your lovefest! No offense, but we simply don’t need you.
Please understand that these feelings are not directed at the common people, at least not against those who do not buy into the official russophobic paranoia, but centuries of Polish hatred and back-stabbing have convinced us that dealing with your rulers is a futile endeavor.
From a Russian point of view, Trump’s speech in Warsaw is an embarrassment to Poland. He treated you like naive children and you bought it all, hook, line and sinker. And when we look at the genuine elation and pride of the Polish people for having a US President read a text clearly prepared by a Polish emigre we wonder what is wrong with you?! Is that how a great people behaves?
I am sorry to tell you but I also believe that this is hopeless. What can Russians have in common with the people who cheered The Donald for delivering such a clearly and obviously dishonest speech, followed by LNG contracts and Patriot missile deliveries?
We live in different civilizational realms, almost on different planets, and while individual to individual we can (and should!) get along, our people might as well be separated by 10 million miles of uncrossable territory.
If in a very distant future the Polish people come to reconsider all that they nowadays consider as self-evident truths (and I am not holding my breath) and finally muster the true national pride of self-determination (rather the brown-nosing of side A against side B) we might be brothers again. But as long as you chose to be the slaves of an Empire (ANY Empire), then we won’t have anything meaningful in common with you. See, from our point of view, *we* are the freedom-loving, unconquered and sovereign people and we see *you* as voluntary serfs of a despotic regime. We think that ‘Asia’ is were true freedom is, Europe is the place for despotism and hateful ideologies.
Russia suffered from this “western ideological infection” for over 3 centuries and we are done. It cost us millions and millions of lives, and we now want “out”. The good thing is that our land is big enough, we don’t need even as square millimeter of yours (or anybody else’s for that matter). In fact, we even are willing to give up more land which would be historically “ours” to have a buffer between you and us (I am referring to the western Ukraine west of the Dnieper river).
So keep on preparing for our invasion if you want, but you will come to realize one day that far from wanting to invade you, we want nothing in common with you any more. As I wrote, our future is in the South, the East and the North. All we have in the West is our blood-soaked past.
Okay, end of long rant here. I tried to explain how I think most Russians feel at an emotional level, what we feel when we look at you and when we hear what you say today. I don’t know if any of the above makes sense to you, but that is my best try at explaining why “doing nothing, nothing at all” is what I think Russia should do, and has already begun doing.
Kind regards and thank you again for your comment,
The Saker
There were two Solidarnosc movements. The first one which was a true uprising but the majority goal was not to destroy the whole system. It was initially about food prices and some liberalization of general workings of the system. What happened next was a complete surprise to those in the West and the Power Factions (3-4) in the government. They saw something that was getting out of their control. So the decision was made to put it down. The “wrong element” was rounded up and given an option , leave or we will make your life here is hell (career gone, lost positions, family marked). As for those that stayed, well they were “special”.
I will mention Adam Michnik whom I included in a comment of mine above. This is a wolf in a sheep’s clothing,
“Reared in a family of committed communists, Michnik became an opponent of Poland’s communist regime at the time of the party’s anti-Jewish purges”
” His step-brother on his father’s side, Jerzy Michnik (born 1929), settled in Israel after 1957 and then moved to New York.[2]”
“After he was released from prison, he worked for two years as a welder at the Róża Luxemburg (Rosa Luxemburg) Industrial Plant and then, on the recommendation of Jacek Kuroń, he became private secretary to Antoni Słonimski.
In 1976–77 he lived in Paris. After he returned to Poland, he got involved in the activity of Workers’ Defence Committee (KOR), which had already existed for a couple of months. It was one of the best known opposition organizations of the 1970s. He became one of the most active opposition activists and also one of the supporters of the Society for Educational Courses (Towarzystwo Kursów Naukowych).”
We can forget about that idiotic label “communist”. That is there to confuse the masses. He came from a special family which had “family ties” with “their” people in the West. This is the “key”. I doubt this idiot was a welder. And how about the ease of manging a trip to go outside of Poland after being such a “anti-system” guy ? Answer can be only one, A Power Faction made it happen. He became one of the “chosen” to lead the Solidarnosc and that is why he needed to be “prepared”. This preparation was done by “expert” abroad. Just like Trotsky.
His internment and jail times are cover stories which were clown by solidarity people who were close to the truth . His interments were as severe as being sent to a dacha on the outskirts of Moscow. One of the Power factions made sure nothing bad happened to him and nothing bad happened. That’s it, he was anointed to be a key player in the Final Game called the Round Table. But before that happened there was the 7 yrs of sanctions by Regan to destroy the economy. And when that was done Poland was ready for “Solidarity II”. Michnik was there with the rest of his “buddies”.
Very quickly. That Big Hero of Poland called Lech Walesa is also a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Except that he is a pathetic little stupid Pole with a HUGE EGO. These are easy to control and manipulate. In some ways similar to Oswald of 1963. Walesa was sheep dipped to look like a big Patriot but to realize he was not requires looking at the “fruits” of his work,the people he was surrounded by and all the documents that once were secret came to see the daylight. A bit of work.
“I think that we, Russians, are basically done with the West. Keep your Jesuits, your cardinals, your Nazis, your CIA paid democrats, your Zionist politicians, your Anglo imperialists, your capitalist system, your racist contempt for everybody who is not like you (including your belief that “Europe” is “civilized” and “Asia” “despotic) – take all of it and just LEAVE US ALONE!”
I hope your right. My worry is what is going to happen when Putin is gone because “they” are patiently waiting.
@ Alex
You are an amazing source of very good and important material the lesser of us can only dream about! Your copious and reasoned contributions have debunked many “official” versions of events and exposed the lies of conventional wisdom. Thank you for your work helping us to see a bit more of the hidden history.
“They” screwed up and gave us the Internet :-)
“General Order No. 11 decreed as follows:
The XXXX, as a class violating every regulation of trade established by the Treasury Department and also department orders, are hereby expelled from the Department [of the Tennessee] within twenty-four hours from the receipt of this order.
Post commanders will see to it that all of this class of people be furnished passes and required to leave, and any one returning after such notification will be arrested and held in confinement until an opportunity occurs of sending them out as prisoners, unless furnished with permit from headquarters.
No passes will be given these people to visit headquarters for the purpose of making personal application of trade permits.[8] ”
This general was not an idiot in 1862. So who is “XXXX” ?
Good ol’ George could not tell a lie when he chopped that cherry tree. He was such a good guy. Oh really ??
“The Whiskey Rebellion: Frontier Epilogue to the American Revolution –
by Thomas P. Slaughter ”
Some of the best info I found was by reading others comments and then going deeper in the rabbit hole :-)
Well prior to that, good ole ben franklin had some words to say about xxxx. He was weel aware of them thar ran the slave trade.
Might look into xxxx’s “Letter to Washington.”
I was very happy to see SunriseState’s comment. And rather sad to read your reply.
You correctly said: “The single most important fact about Empires: they are first and foremost terrible for those who host them.”
If you think that this is true, you must also realise that this is still the case and that the people of Poland probably do not have such a good time right now. They are very much under the heel of the empire, as far as I can tell.
I am from Germany (also totally under the heel) and I think that German-Russian relations might be quite important with regard to the PBS, especially when Poland is concerned. Ever since Prussia’s rise gained momentum as the nucleus for a modern German Reich, Poland has been caught between a giant and a potential (but still pretty big from their point of view) giant. And they have been all but completely pulverised between them. A significant part of Polish territory today is on historically German land. Some of my ancestors lived and worked on land as German Prussians which is today under Russian control (around Königsberg / Kaliningrad) or Polish control (Danzig / Gdansk). And that is not in the ancient past. I am just a generation too late to have met these people myself.
Of course such a troubled history with wars in which millions were displaced, killed and raped (be it by their own countrymen or foreign armies) makes for bad soil to sow the seeds of understanding and brotherhood. But I think Sunrise has a point when he asks you not to give up on the people in Poland (and other vassal countries). Basically I think that all through the ages people who would in principle have liked nothing more than to live their lives in peace have been set up against each other in brutal conflicts by elites who could not care less about them.
As someone who lives in Europe I can tell you that people are beginning to wake up to the lies and deceit more and more. Slowly… Very slowly, I must admit. But surely. And when the inevitable economic crash comes, this will likely take off exponentially. The only way to prevent this wold be a big war, I guess. Russians should defuse that as much as they can. But I might just be in denial, I am not sure.
Anyway, I wish that the Russian people could find it in their hearts to give the peoples of Europe (who by and large already hate the EU) the time they need to sober up, and not give up on us. The French did not vote for Le Pen, the Dutch did not push Wilders, in Austria they did not elect an FPÖ president. In Germany the AfD will not do very well in the elections. But that is not a bad thing. These people are mostly morons and, I think, often payed pseudo opposition.
Did we make the wrong democratic decisions? Do you think there is a lot of democracy in the EU?
That this was even in the cards as more than a fringe outcome shows that the EU unity front is beginning to crack. And maybe the Italians will do us a big favour and make 5 Stelle a force to recon with in Italy. Unlike most other european protest movements they seem to have worthwhile ideas. (Again that might just be a comfortable illusion.)
You say:
“We live in different civilizational realms, almost on different planets, and while individual to individual we can (and should!) get along, our people might as well be separated by 10 million miles of uncrossable territory.”
Well, I do not know if they might. But they are not. You are neighbours, like it or not. And just pretending the crazies do not exist will not keep idiots from trying to invade Russia again. Having a strong army is of course the best way to prevent that from doing much damage, should it happen. (And deterring the event. Then again you can only deter an enemy if he can understand your threat.) But if you have a couple of dimes to spare on broadcasting some truthful information, it will not hurt. It might save a lot of lives in the end.
Some people do listen. Don’t give up on us.
Thank you, very much my own thoughts and feelings. Russia should make their official policy (if it’s constructive, of course) known to citizens of their neighbour states. This will go some way to defuse Russophobic official narrative. All the best.
” Poland has been caught between a giant and a potential (but still pretty big from their point of view) giant. And they have been all but completely pulverised between them.”
I used a slightly different analogy before here but in spirit of what you say. Now that I think of it I would use a slightly different one that may be useful here. It will only be understood by those who understand regional history well. Poland is like a Russia’s Little Brother (Slavs). The Little Brother not liking being little went looking for friends elsewhere to feel important. He got lost and beaten-up so many times while doing that that now he is a wreck and the condition for old age does not look good. The Big Brother can’t help because the Little Brother is still under the sway of the bad company.
“A significant part of Polish territory today is on historically German land. Some of my ancestors lived and worked on land as German Prussians which is today under Russian control (around Königsberg / Kaliningrad) or Polish control (Danzig / Gdansk).”
I hope you know well the history from around 1410 and on of this region because I think it is a necessity in understanding the Present. In my opinion at around this crucial moment the “grinder” got very serious and the Kingdom of Poland did understand what it was tangling with (easy for me to say). The union with Grand Duchy of Lithuania made the Poles “high” which coupled with a weak understanding of “Western Ways” resulted in not reacting adequately to it. What came at them was “The West”. This battle is the first Big East-West confrontation and it is to repeat itself in history over and over again in the future.
BATTLE OF TANNENBERG – 1410
“The alliance of the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, led respectively by King Władysław II Jagiełło (Jogaila) and Grand Duke Vytautas (Witold; Vitaŭt), decisively defeated the German–Prussian Teutonic Knights,”
First, Lithuanians are NOT Slavs. The Union had problems from the start which continues to this day. The opposing “German–Prussian Teutonic Knights” is a bit misleading here as amongst the knights were ones from far away Western kingdoms !!!! The Knights of the Teutonic Order needed reinforcements to fight effectively in this region. Thus well-armed knights from France, England, Luxembourg, Austria, Hungary, Bohemia and the Low Countries arrived every year to participate in “Lithuanian Crusades”. At the battle of TANNENBERG of the approximately 250 Teutonic Knights, 203 died in battle (80%). Casualties for guests are nebulous. It was a huge win and stopped the West from expanding East. http://www.lituanus.org/1962/62_3_02_Jakstas.html
” And that is not in the ancient past. I am just a generation too late to have met these people myself.”
I offered a small setup in understanding these lands and some of the people there. That should shed some light on your families presence in these lands.
What we observe today and what went on in the XX century IS A CONTINUATION of this battle in 1410. Poland after its 3 partitions lasting 123 yrs and ending in 1918 IMHO has never gotten itself back together mentally. Humpty-Dumpty’s psyche is broken. When I present my views (requires a lot of writing) to Poles to explain what I see today I get very serious s%$t from them. My only defense is “It is my interpretation of this history.” which is not optimistic.
” A significant part of Polish territory today is on historically German land.”
Do not forget that the borders were shifted NOT BY Poland but by Stalin (NOT Russian) with a nod from Brits and US in Yalta. They were to compensate Poland for what Stalin took in Eastern Poland pre-WW II. Many seem to forget this little detail
“On the 600 anniversary of the battle came also The Grand Master of the Teutonic Order Bruno Platter: ”
http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/69/brunoplatter.jpg
Nothing should be forgotten because if you do you WILL pay double !!!!
“Tainted Source” – by John Laughland
“Der stille Putsch” – by Jürgen Roth
“La seconde histoire du nazisme” – by Alfred Wahl
Alex:
> BATTLE OF TANNENBERG – 1410
“The alliance of the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, led respectively by King Władysław II Jagiełło (Jogaila) and Grand Duke Vytautas (Witold; Vitaŭt), decisively defeated the German–Prussian Teutonic Knights,”
First, Lithuanians are NOT Slavs. The Union had problems from the start which continues to this day
This is a bit wrong.
Lithuanians as we know them today (литовцы) indeed are not Slavs.
However, they have NO ANY RELATION to Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
Lithuanians as they were then (литвины) is what is called Belorussians today.
And today Lithuanians were called Jemoitis or Jemaitis back then.
And they were not the only inhabitants of those lands of course, Slavic tribes always were there too.
More so they Jemoitis only got their alphabet when German priests decided to create it, before that they never knew the very concept of writing. And you would think the nation having no idea of scripts could create the huge and strong state?
And they Jemoitis got their libraries, when later Russia under Peter 1st purchased those lands and started translating books to their language orienting it in that German-invented alphabet.
This is just another example of infowars when it come to the History.
Lithuanians were Slavs, it is just later this word was killed in its original meaning and a golem was created with the meaning absolutely opposite to what it was.
Thanks for the clarification. These details could also be extended to who were the “Germans” and what were their lands.
“This is just another example of infowars when it come to the History.”
Most definitely and it was already in full bloom in 1410 thanks to the Teutonic Knights scribes.
:-)
if you would really be interested, then you may open google and search there for >>вкл site:777hawk.livejournal.com< http://777hawk.livejournal.com/804958.html
Some potential “entry points”
http://777hawk.livejournal.com/800290.html
http://777hawk.livejournal.com/32873.html
http://777hawk.livejournal.com/184467.html
this comment was half-destroyed by Saker’s forum…..
Okay, would try to re-create the destroyed points.
1. the links are in Russian and to try to read them use http://www.translate.ru (google-bing translate is worse), if you ever would want to give it a try
2. the guy is very opinionated
3. he also uses lot of sarcasm, the top link was exactly example of it, he took the concept he thinks wrong and “pushes it over eleven”. It is not immediately clear until you read the comments after the post.
4. regardless of #2 an #3 his posts can at least serve as collections of references about Grand Principality Lithuanian
Alex:
> what Stalin took in Eastern Poland pre-WW II
…was Ukrainian lands illegally occupied by Poland in their invasion of 1919-1920
google about Curzon Line, that Poland violated and Stalin almost verbatim restored
Also see my comment above, that was not the only invasion Poland around 1920 did – they assaulted every neighbor they dared.
Think, when snobbish Britts were talked about “greedy hyena” it was not because they has dirty mouth, it was because what just created state of Poland deed confused them to the t.
Think about it, when in 1939 Poles finally awoke and learned that they are not stronger than Germany – who came to their help? No one. Every their neighbor saw Poland as much more grave and imminent danger than Germany. Just after 20 years and a few after being created Poland got a reputation among their neighbor that anything else and even Hitler is less menace.
Number one I do not think Pilsudski is the hero of Poland. I think he is a hidden hero of the Germans. Moves on Wilno and Lvov are adventures that this agent pushed the nation into. Be aware that there was a BLOODY Couete Deta, May 1926. As for his nobility, be very weary of this in this part of the world as well as on the British Island. They are mask which frequently were bought ($$$) to camouflage who the buyer really was. You know, make them more Polish or more British than they really were :-)
In Wiki we have,
“He was the person most responsible for the creation of the Second Polish Republic in 1918, 123 years after it had been taken over by Russia, Austria and Prussia.[2][3][4][5]”
This is BS which requires digging to understand it being so. Yes Pilsudski was at the head of the government but the heavy lifters at Versailles in 1918 were Paderewski and Dmowski. They were doing ALL THE WORK . Dmowski spoke several languages and thus could say exactly what he wanted to say and understand what was being said without a filtering “translator” !!!! So why did Dmowski vanish into the mist and is not a hero of the nation ? Because he was a nationalist (currently a vulgar word) and he was branded a antisemit. Here you get it straight from the Jews,
” Since he was fiercely anti-Russian, he dissociated himself from the pro-Russian antisemite Roman *Dmowski. ”
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/pilsudski-j-x00f3-zef-x00b0
Since Jews know exactly what is going on, let us deconstruct the sentence.
“Since he was fiercely anti-Russian” – Pilsudski would make no deals with Russians but was pro-Jewish.
“pro-Russian antisemite Roman *Dmowski” – well this says it all. Domwski would make a deal with Russians and he was anti-Jewish.
Now we know everything. Dmowski is not a hero. Ask a Pole if he knows who is Dmowski and I bet most would have no clue who he is and what he did.
Pilsudski did not help Kolchakov in destroying the Red Plague because that was not his mission as an agent of the Germans. No, he goes and takes Wilno to p*$$ off the Lithuanians thus opening old wounds. He goes to take Lvove when they are not really ready for. He is dragging the just resurrected and weak country into adventures they were not prepared for. If Warsaw fell Poland would have disappeared off the map of Europe AGAIN.
AND the Poles made him a Hero !!!! I think it is that mustache and serious demeanor that hypnotizes them to think this. I also think it was XXXX that helped in the campaign to make it so. Just watch how destruction of Trump is enabled, through mass media. Well they had their version of mass media in those days too.
The Battle of Warsaw was planned by the Polish Chief of Staff Tadeusz Jordan-Rozwadowski. Frenches had nothing to do with it. In the critical point of the battle (when all looked lost) Pilsudski disappeared and could not be contacted. Explanation that was give was that he went to a baptism !!!! Give me a break. A hint of the truth you will see in Wiki,
“He decided to supervise the attack, personally handing in a letter of resignation from all state functions so he could concentrate on the military situation and so that if he died, it would not paralyze the state.”
He could have gone to the front with or without resigning. The why the hell is a resignation letter needed in such a moment ? It was needed because he had a mental break down. The State was not paralyzed, he was !!! Only when the battle went in favor of the Poles he “miraculous” revived and headed the government once again. The letter of course disappearing but people in high places knew what happened. However after May 1926 they will be rounded up and taken care of. Dead or left the country.
Now just prior to Sept. 1939 Poland made the huge mistake of taking Czech Zaolzie. This was a poison pill because it made Czech enemies to Poland. I do not know who said what when to whom …. but someone push the Polish government to do this. Now look at my comment here,
/how-russia-should-deal-with-the-pilban-syndrome-pbs/#comment-377287
My impression when looking at history is that when you see something very strange like, “lets take Czech Zaolzie” or “Lets do an Uprising of Warsaw even if we only have pistols and bottles with gasoline”
that you need to stop and say I need to look deeper. I admit, for most this is not easy. You might need to cross 3 languages in doing you research. But the info is out there and much easier to reach since “they” made the mistake of giving us the Internet :-)
As for the “Uprising of Warsaw”. Look at Józef Hieronim Retinger, Brits, Katyn massacre, Stalin and the accident on 4 July 1943 in Malta of the plane caring General Wladyslaw Sikorski and ask the question “Why are Brits still keeping documents secret regarding this “accident” ?”
Hell, I think I completely went off track. As to Curzon Line ,you will see in my top comments this being mentioned. Cheers :-)
Alex, yes you told Curzon Line was suddenly bent in last moment.
I don’t know if it is true, nor I know which line would be more factually substantiated, pre-bending or after-bending.
Still, there was the line, and it was internationally recognized.
Poland going across that line was invasion. Poland’s possession of those lands between 1919 and 1939 was occupation. USSR’s repossession of those lands after Poland as state ceased to exist was merely returning to the status quo.
It is funny that when Finland invades USSR with Hitler it is called “Continuation War” and justified be a previously held Winter War.
But when it comes for USSR reclaiming lands lost to the aggressor – suddenly we have another language for it.
The tabula rasa world was created on 17 Sep 1939 and not a minute before. :-/
Нет, важно то, кто дви́нул линию. Еврей сделал это. Льюис Бернстейн, который изменил свое имя на НЭ́МИР. Он один сделал это, a его правительство не знало об этом ! Ну это позиция британского правительства. Позже они дали ему титул “Sir”.
Итак, важно ли знать, что он еврей? Или следует сказать Британия двигла линию потому что другая информация не важна ? :-)
Namier was born in Poland :-)
“Namier was seen as one of the biggest enemies of the newly independent Polish state in the British political environment. He changed the earlier proposed Curzon line by detaching the city of Lwów from Poland with a version called Curzon Line “A”. It was sent to Soviet diplomatic representatives for acceptance. The earlier compromised version of Curzon line which was debated at the Spa Conference was renamed Curzon Line “B”. ”
http://www.jewage.org/wiki/en/Article:Lewis_Bernstein_Namier_-_Biography
Oh, Wikipedia rocks there
> Lighter blue line: Curzon Line “B” as proposed in 1919.
> Darker blue line: “Curzon” Line “A” as proposed by the Soviet Union in 1940.
So, the line marked with lesser letter was proposed 20 years later.
Sounds legit :-D
> people [of Europe] are beginning to wake up to the lies and deceit more and more. Slowly… Very slowly, I must admit. But surely. And when the inevitable economic crash comes, this will likely take off exponentially
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You know, there is a sad cynical joke, about a boy who was mute, and no matter what the family did, what doctors they called, the boy never said a word.
But then one evening when the family had a supper he tried a spoon ands said “it is cold”.
“Oh miracle!” cried the mother. After all those years you finally is healthy again and can talk!”
“Why? I was not sick.”
“Really! My blood and soul, but you never talked to us you parents!”
“Why? It was okay until today.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The sad but absolutely rational and civilized trait in European nations is saving energy for irrational impulses that give no immediate personal profit.
Cry them a river and they would not bay an eye.
Give them one euro less than usual – and they cry a river.
See, it is about ROI afterall.
What Russia can afford to invest into Europe should yield a good return.
Talking does not. It only wastes time and helps Empire to enforce “Russia meddles” story.
Then why bother?
You said it yourself, “when the inevitable economic crash comes” then Europeans finally would care about international situation, but never before it. Then why to invest huge efforts if they would be multiplied by zero anyway? What is ever a point to throw seed onto rocks in the desert?
Only the real prospect of being left behind has some slim chance European citizens would have their wallet feel uncomfortable and inspire them to look around.
On the contrary, if European citizens thinks Russia would never severe its ties to his wallet – then no amount of words, tears and even blood would move that citizen even an inch.
So, ignoring and turning back is really the best and only affordable help Russia can do for awaken Europeans to interest 99% of their peers in the current events. Sad truth. And if Russia would keep kissing up to Europeans as it done before – then that would be the most harm Russia can cause to Europeans, who would read it as “everything is fine and nothing to be changed and Russian attempts at manipulating them should be righteously ignored”
You said, after “inevitable economic crash comes” hearts of Europeans would turn form desert to fertile wet soil. I hope for it. Then it would come time to throw seeds and pour water on them.
But wasting seeds today would only warrant we would be out of seeds when the time comes.
Let’s have a party when the grass shows there where only sands and rocks are today.
The Saker:
Do you really believe that anybody in Russia believes that issuing a “statement of collaboration” will do any good at all?
I don’t know about the Polish-Russian relationship, but I know that President Putin made several attempts to work together with Germany. At the beginning of his career, he even delivered a speech in the German parliament (in German) and got ignored by the dim-wits inhabiting that building at that time.
Russia tried to reach out to the West (EU and US) on several occasions in the past years.
Honestly, I’m wondering why Russian politicians are still working on establishing a partnership with the West, instead of turning entirely to Russia’s Asian neighbors. In my opinion Russian politicians are far better diplomats than our Western counterparts who’re acting like a bull in a china shop.
P.S. I forgot to mention in my long rant – Russian foreign policy doctrine states clearly – “turn enemies into neutrals, neutrals into friends, friends into allies”. Use it, use your political power and capital westwards also. Work constructively and it will pay off. Again – thanks and all the best.
turn enemies into neutrals, neutrals into friends, friends into allies”
Yes, when dealing with sovereign countries. But Poland is just a US colony. And the fact that it volunteered for that role just makes it worse. No offense, but nobody needs a prostitute for a friend or ally.
So what is the US in that case ?
I say the biggest pimp/whore that you can be find. It certainly is not the US that was here prior to WW I. As an example, (if someone read a bit deeper) Senator Lindbergh saw the problem coming and could not do anything about it. His son though he would get in politics but lost his baby in mysterious circumstances and withdrew. US became a complete whore and a pimp in one body in Dallas in 1963.
Can you Ever deal with such a country as a friend or an ally. How many times must the US (Brits are the next best at this) show what it truly is ? In Munich 2007 Putin knew who he was dealing with. When Kursk sunk Putin knew who he was dealing with. When Libya and Iraq fell Putin knew who he was dealing with. He was dealing with a Power Whore who was payed by the FED.
Hi Sake, seems Russia is OK to deal with Saudi Arabia, though. Their flag is in the dictionary next to “garrison state”. I admit your logic baffles me a little here.
*Saker (not Sake). Apologies for the typo, commented from my phone – auto correct struck again..
“No offense, but nobody needs a prostitute for a friend or ally.”
Correct. Whenever prostitutes are involved in the fine art of political plotting, it means that very evil designs are being prepared in which the prostitutes are going to suffer immensely at the malicious glee of the plotters proper. Let it be known that to me, all the peoples that constitute the honorary Euro-trash deserve what’s coming to them. Let them make their “glorious sacrifice” for the Greater Good of the Zionazi West. Too bad Russia won’t be intimidated.
The problem with this Polish or PBS syndrome or whatever you want to call it, is that it is Eastern Europe wide at this point, alluded to in the article, but I think requires some emphasis. It has even infected formally pro-Russian Orthodox Christian states such as Montenegro, the population may not buy into it – yet, but give it time. I ceased watching RTS (Radio Television Serbia/Radio Televizija Srbija) over satellite in the UK years ago because the level of so-called “pro-European” propaganda – & by extension anti-Russian/Serbian is so heavy that I can not tolerate it. Pro-Western parties run elections with slogans like “for a European Serbia” as if Serbia is in the south pole or something. The disgusting RTS I just mentioned used to run – don’t know if it does now – constant messages stating the same thing, RTS for a “European Serbia.” I mean this stuff is pure Nazism. Pure Hitlerite poison. How it has impacted on the psyche there is hard to say, I go there twice a year & sometimes I’m encouraged by the pro-Russian sentiment I come across, at other times I am appalled by the level of material/money obsession there & the way this insiduously lends to pro-Western attitudes – because in Eastern Europe the West means one thing & one thing only – WEALTH. That is it. So I support all the Saker’s suggestions re: Poland, but I would take it further & begin to apply it to pathetic entities such as the governments of Bulgaria, idiot Montenegro (Djukanovic mafia boy) even Serbia to an extent – although at the moment that idiot government (Vucic) seems to be holding some kind of balance, however fake it may be. Dodik (Rep. Srpska) is the business, he deserves max Kremlin support & seems to be getting it. Also, in Serbia the population remains vehemently anti-NATO, which is encouraging considering there is an entire generation now that has gown up & does not remember the NATO bombardment necessarily. Still, I think Russia needs to be far more assertive where Eastern Europe is concerned & I do not have any doubt that she will be. The Duma is already discussion forwarding a resolution to sever all diplomatic ties with Poland, so that is a good start.
So I would council Russia by saying “For get it. This is something that Poland needs to work on.”
—
This conclusion is exactly a surrender. Just because this or that nation’s media is controlled by enemy forces, it makes no sense to say, Okay, you can have it, we give up, we’ll wait until they decide to cancel this propaganda…
What? What kind of a strategy is that?
On the contrary. The way to counter it is to keep showing, in your own international media (like RT, Sputnik etc) how full of nonsense, distortions and outright lies their media is. Maybe much of your point of view won’t make it through their barrires, but some of it will. It is very hard these days to completely prevent unpleasant information from making it through. Of course they will try to censor it, but the more they do so, the more they will show their true colors, and in any case, this is no reason to keep up the efforts to counter the vicious propaganda against Russian. In terms of arguments, it is a relatively simple task because the other side is so full of demonstrable lies.
Tu summarize: abandoning the information war, giving up on that front on account if being fed up with so many lies and such relentless production of hatred, would be almost as bad as abandoning your military readiness to protect yourself. It would be a colossal mistake. They say that mud sticks. It does somewhat, but it certainly sticks much more easily if the one receiving ithe mud makes no effort to remove it from himself. If you are falsely accused of something, and you don’t make any attempt at replying, you are in the eyes of many, acknowledging your guilt. The information war is an essential aspect of war. You can’t surrender there. You can view it as a hygenic process.
> This conclusion is exactly a surrender
You can not surrender what you don’t have yet.
> Tu summarize: abandoning the information war, giving up on that front
There is no information war in Poland from Russian side.
There is no Russian front in Poland.
There is NOTHING to give up yet.
> on account if being fed up with so many lies and such relentless production of hatred,
…that would require comparable amount of “cannon fodder” to shake it, which may be in abundance or may be not.
> would be almost as bad as abandoning your military readiness to protect yourself.
This is a tricky false analogy.
Russian “military readiness” is in Russian soil. And to a part in Belarus and Syria.
There is no Russian military units stationed in Poland.
The real analogy would be merely to “avoid invading Poland with all Russian armies.”. And yes, that is what Russia does. It does not invade Poland with its PR and information armies.
You may argue if Russia could or could not invade Polish informational sphere and if Russia could or could not be successful there and if that would require larger or smaller resource investments (that would consequently have to be denied to other fronts due to starting Poland endeavor).
However, you should not pretend Russia does have some “front” in Poland and is “retreating” from it.
Russia does not and never did have “foothold” there.
USSR maybe had, but lost it 50 years ago.
There is N-O-T-H-I-N-G Russia has in Poland that it could “give up”.
Refusal to invade is NOT retreat.
Saker, All,
“truth is always complex” is a wise statement. This article by Saker is a rare bird (rara avis) in the public discourse, somehow uncomfortable topic to all concerned. The anti-polish tone of the article itself and the many comments shocked me. The tone of comments as I followed the discussion began to change after the entry by Lysander and especially by Janczek, which is to be lauded that there is another side to the story.
I take offense to the derogation of the name Pilsudski by associating it with the name Bandera. Pilsudski was a statesman – who was acting in the interest of Polish nation, in the same league as General DeGaulle was for France; Linking Pilsudski with Bandera is IMO a literary “crime”.
Pilsudski is maybe a saint for you Poles. But for everyone else he was a warmongering maniac and nothing else.
Every time I talk to Poles, they start presenting to me their mythology about Polish people as eternal victims, a people without any sin.
And it is far from the truth. And you know it. If you don’t just inform yourselves a little bit.
Poland today has just returned to their behavior between two world wars. Warmongers with maniacal anti-russian obsession, who are ready to happily take part in war against Russia and join to anyone who is ready to start war with Russia.
This is only truth, everything else is pure demagogy.
And I was especially stunned with ukro-nationalist hatred toward Russia. Now, when I watch what happens in Ukraine, seems unbelievable to me that Russians lived together with them for so long time without having any clue about how much Ukrainians hate them.
The Saker is absolutely right here. The facts are hard and sad, but 100% true.
> And I was especially stunned with ukro-nationalist hatred toward Russia. Now, when I watch what happens in Ukraine, seems unbelievable to me that Russians lived together with them for so long time without having any clue about how much Ukrainians hate them.
There was a clue. There was a lot of jokes about Ukrainians “old crazy nazi” meeting Russian guests.
BUT – they all were parodies. They all were painting those nazi as some 90-years old relics with elders dementia full on. They were laughing the issue off.
On the OFFICIALLY PERMITTED level – that was never the case.
The was many noise and grieves about Khatyn Massacre, for example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatyn_massacre
But it was always told like “look what SS Nazi coming from Germany did”.
Never a word was allowed that Germans were a minority in that death squad and majority were Ukrainians.
USSR was:
1) officially internationalist ( crimes have no race, etc )
2) build upon Korenyzatsya (forceful Belorussization, forceful Ukrainization and other means against “Russian Chaiuvinism”)
3) ruled by Ukrainian Khrushchev, then Ukrainian Brezhnev, then after small gap by half-Ukrainian Gorbachev
Good luck with conveying something not complimentary to Ukrainians in that environment….
And BTW, about “officially internationalist” stances of communist governments…
May i ask if official media in communist Yugoslavia was mentioning srposek weapon?
I traveled throughout ukraine at the time of the first maidan. Having grown up among galichans, I wanted to learn the source of such hatred towards russians.
I was surprised that even in lvov, no one spoke ukrainian. Even in carpathians, on local busses folks used russian.
long story short, this shit in Ukraine Kew was brewed in local pockets and unleased twice by us ngo’s. After 20 yrs and 5 billion the us had ground the economy to a halt.
wish I could add more summary but all I have now is a tiny planchet.
it was second Maidan you were in.
in 2014 it was the 3rd one.
there also was Maidan on Granite in October 1990 where Oleg Tyahnibok (one of the three EuroMaidan leaders) of Social-National Assembly “Svoboda” was let into Ukrainian official politics.
I might add that most of the Uktaininans were politically naive, essentially living in post sov society. They believed their tv’s. No real internet, maidan 2 was organized by cell phone.
I think and hope that they are living through a terribleness brain infection. Never felt anomosity even though I was taken for a russian.
it will take time to see who their freinds are, the us isn’t one.
It’s an insane situation. I told one young guy to ukie military induction point. His mom was terrified, but I thought to myself: who could ukraine war against?
it’s terrible that the damned galichans were orchastrated into power.
Ukrainians had Russia att their shoulders, to look at our life and learn from it.
Instead they used it to brag how they “know how to live” and how we are stupid soviet slaves even after USSR collapsed.
Now that Ukraine shows but all the bad traits of late rotting USSR – they still claims us more soviet then them. Whatever. Was funyn for a while, but got bored and tiresome.
They took part in at least one of Chechek wars – on Chechen side.
They took part in 08/08/08 war – on Georgian site.
They at least could use those activities to learn abut dark sides of world. Instead they used them for believing they are inherently wiser andsmarter than we. No reflection, just boasting. And no matter hwo we cried them to stop in 2014-2015 – they only laughed as loosers off. Whatever, whatever….
It only hurts that all those jokes parodizing “stereotypical ukrainians” suddenly turned all so real.
“Ukrainians had Russia att their shoulders, to look at our life and learn from it.
Instead they used it to brag how they “know how to live” and how we are stupid soviet slaves even after USSR collapsed.”
If there is PBS for the Poles then certainly the non-Russian, none-Polish portion of Ukrainian population has its own.
I guess they could be classified as Western-Ukraines but even that term does not convey true picture of the problem. Nikita Khrushchev stabbed the Russian population in the back and the rest of the damage was done by Gorbi. There was no nation of Ukraine. Ukraine as a nationality is sort of like being American in America in the 18-19 century. Anyone in the West should look into this closer in-order to understand the turmoil in this region because the Anglo-Zionists are playing this “fiddle on the roof” to the max :-)
Brezhnev was also less than perfect.
He fixed most gaping Khrushchev’s follies, but at the same time he entrenched clans-bases corrupt political system. It was 1970-s when people of “make the system work” kind were one by one replaced with people of “make my career safe” kind. Which in the end maybe led to Chernobyl accident in which no one was guilty except person, blasted by the very explosion.
There was a joke at the time, that Russian history consists of three parts: before-Peter (referring Peter the Great), after-Peter, and Dniepro-Peter.
He managed to turn chaotic is acute disease of Khrushchev rule into much slower and much less explicit but chronicle and steady disease of slow clan-ization and de facto feudalization of USSR
“Pilsudski is maybe a saint for you Poles. But for everyone else he was a warmongering maniac and nothing else.”
Good to hear that. But do take the time to see what I have to say about him in one of my comments. For me he is a well selected puppet. He could have supported Denikin in 1919 but did not. Why? The Bolsheviks were the lesser evil ???
“Józef, when he attended the Russian gymnasium in Wilno (now Vilnius, Lithuania), was not an especially diligent student.[18] One of the younger Polish students at this gymnasium was the future Russian communist leader Feliks Dzierżyński, who later would become Piłsudski’s arch-enemy.[19] ”
Coincidence.
“Poland today has just returned to their behavior between two world wars. ” – What yor observing is a disconnect in the information that is supplied to “Poland today” and what the puppet politicians are doing. Poles are being lied to and the politicians are not doing anything in the interest of the country. Listen to this “polish” politician,
““…We’ll get in conflict with the Germans, Russians and we’ll think that everything is super, because we gave the Americans a blow job. Losers. Complete losers.””
http://inside-poland.com/t/secret-sikorski-recording-plunges-polands-government-further-into-crisis/
The same as here in the US. American troops in Syria are NOT an American wish. They are the wish of the V Column in the US.
I take offense to the derogation of the name Pilsudski by associating it with the name Bandera. Pilsudski was a statesman
Right. And that is precisely why we, Russians, are giving up on you. Keep your beliefs, keep your heroes, rewrite history to your heart’s content – we don’t mind. We just don’t want to deal with you, that’s all.
The Saker
Wow Saker, you’re selective on what you tackle but I will get back to that in the future. Living in Florida (if I recall correctly) makes that necessary.
I suspect now will be a time for me to get hit on the head but I was meaning to attack this subject much earlier but there were so many other comments here of interest that this is the right time to discuss the “Heroes”.
“The two “great heroes” of the Poland and West Ukrainian nationalists are Jozef Pilsudski and Stepan Bandera.”
Pilsudski reminds me a lot of the Soviet hero Pavlik Morozov or for that matter Lenin. They have these beatiful legends ON PAPER but not when you look up close. Then it starts to stink if not look outright infected. Pavlik still has his statue in St. Petersburg while Lenin will not be move out of Moscow. Heroes are heroes.
Well the same is with marshal Jozef Pilsudski. The “marshal” is added in Poland but that is fiction. He never earned it. Added emphasis should be on “earned” :-)
Now pictures tell a thousand stories and this is also true with Jozef Pilsudski. Take a look how solemnly this “polish hero” (lower case as I don’t think he is one) is glorified by the none-other than the hero of Germany Hitler. Why is that ? School teachers will have excellent explanations in Poland.
http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/adolf-hitler-memorial-pilsudski-1935/
Pilsudski has a very significant characteristic in common with Lenin as to how he was TRANSPORTED to power. In 1917 Germans put Lenin on a train and sent him to Russia to make a revolution while on 8 November 1918 Germans put Pilsudski on a train in Magdeburg and sent him to take power in Poland !!! A German coincident. Or was it German brotherly love of Poles which prompted them to bring the beloved Polish hero home ? I say they sent “their man” to Poland and the “right man” to Russia. Tusk is today’s equivalent Pilsudski.
How about the infamous 1920 Battle of Warsaw. He is the hero. Here we have a fork in the road and I chose that he is NOT. The hero was gen. Tadeusz Jordan-Rozwadowski. The same general who on May 15, 1926 was arrested by Pilsudski military after Pilsudski’s May Coup d’État. Yes, a Coup d’État. Pilsudski is hero of an armed overthrow of the Polish government. Sort of like Maidan in Ukraine. :-) Pilsudski is a Democratic hero.
You and many Poles would need to dig deeper into the historical record to understand WHAT kind of hero Pilsudski really was. Those square jawed with a huge mustache monuments confuse the mind and books in schools reinforce the mighty myth.
Oh and one more thing about Pilsudski. In my previous comment I said,
“A common “totem element” used by the Zionists to show the World that THEY are in power is the wife of the leader. ”
Well here is Pilsudski’s second wife. The hero left the first wife. The first in turn did not give him a divorce which did not stop the hero of the nation from having 2 children with her. The revisionists say she was Jewish.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandra_Pi%C5%82sudska
“The was many noise and grieves about Khatyn Massacre, for example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatyn_massacre
But it was always told like “look what SS Nazi coming from Germany did”.
Never a word was allowed that Germans were a minority in that death squad and majority were Ukrainians.”
Wow, Mr. Arioch has this Royally screwed up. Germans ? Ukrainians ? What is he smoking”
Khatyn Massacre was a Soviet Affair not a Russian Affair, carried out by the most reliable element in the NKVD. I will let Mr. Putin explain,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3plO343bID8
“The Katyn massacre, also known as the Katyn Forest massacre, was a mass murder of thousands of Polish military officers, policemen, intellectuals and civilian prisoners of war by Soviet NKVD, based on a proposal from Lavrentiy Beria to execute all members of the Polish Officer Corps.”
Beria was Georgian NOT Russian. And ..
http://www.polskapartianarodowa.org/images/stories/file/the-jews-who-slaughtered-the-poles-at-katyn2-big.jpg
Time for a beer.
Wow Saker, you’re selective on what you tackle but I will get back to that in the future. Living in Florida (if I recall correctly) makes that necessary.
Well, if this is going to be the usual “Florida is full of Jews and you therefore don’t dare mention Jews” please read /how-to-bring-down-the-elephant-in-the-room/ or this /how-a-medieval-concept-of-ethnicity-makes-nato-commit-yet-another-a-dangerous-blunder/ or even this /why-i-use-the-term-anglozionist-and-why-its-important/ before you accuse me of being a terrified goy, or a covert Jew myself, a Mossad agent or any other of those labels which those who absolutely cannot stomach any article not totally focused on Jews and Jewish-related issues like to label me with :-)
Cheers,
The Saker
” before you accuse me of being a terrified goy, or a covert Jew myself, a Mossad agent or any other of those labels”
No its not that simple Saker.
Reading the article I noticed that you use the labels Ukraine, Poland, etc when referring to governments, parties or a country giving the impression that we are dealing with a homogeneous entity. The V Column is not acknowledged whereas the evidence that the V Column is present is available. Like it or not it is there and thus using these general terms when we are aware of this distinction is to lead the people away from truth. Poles and a V Column among the Poles are two different things. Broad brush-stroke descriptions are very dangerous as they confuse Imagination with Reality. You imagine that the Polish government is acting in such and such way without mentioning that there is an element that is consciously acting on the behalf of another government or an entity. As far as I am concerned this element is not the nation. Now if you are not aware of this fine, I have no issue. I’ll do my job and try to point this out.
Likewise I realize that perhaps I could very well be hallucinating and be wrong. The matter can only be debated reasonably by presenting evidence. Solzhenitsyn did some heavy lift for Russians in this direction The Poles in recent times have no one like this. Americans on the other hand have multitude of people to point out this issue.
My general observation is that the one “element” that never integrates and is frequently in the center of events are the Jews. You can call them Jews, Khazarians or Zionists , it makes no difference. But they are the people who seem to make an insignificant % of the population and yet be present square in middle of utmost important events, Good luck trying to figure which category we are dealing with at any particular time.
But one thing is clear (at least to me) in that this distinction exists and needs to be acknowledged when it is present, as it is no coincidence. As an example , for me, Khodorkovsky is not a Russian, where as Sakharov is a confused Russian. Yelena Bonner on the hand is a handler. To say that a Russian businessman created Yukos is to be spinning yarn of the highest Talmudic caliber. Now you might feel that this need not be mentioned but I do not feel the same way when speaking of the Poles or any other nation.
Cheers :-)
You did not open the link, did you?
For a person who gives so many his links around it is inconsistent to fail opening a link given to him, don’t you think?
That is why you mistake Khatyn and Katyn.
Two absolutely different events in twi different places in two different times.
Please, take some time to actually read what Khatyn Massscre was and stop bringing charged chaos into comments.
Few know about Khatyn so your lamentations about it are about as loud as a fall of a tree in Siberia one minute ago.
“According to Norman Davies, the Khatyn massacre was deliberately exploited by the Soviet authorities to cover up the Katyn massacre, and this was a major reason for erecting the memorial—it was done in order to cause confusion with Katyn among foreign visitors.[13] [14]”
Well, i thought visitors of this place are a bit more sapient than CNN addicts and would be capable to assume there were more historic events than shown on CNN and capable to recognize when context and descriptions of events is so different that it is self-evident it refers some another event. And sometimes capable of following the provided links when they were surprised and want to fact-check me or understand what was i babbling about.
Perhaps i indeed royally screwed when hoping for such a luxury….
The only Pole to have contributed something laudable was Felix Dzerzhinsky, founder of the Russian Cheka. That would indeed be something quite tempting to point out to these obstinate Psheks: “Did you know that it was a Pole who created ‘Putin’s KGB’ ?”
Hi Saker
I live in Poland 21 years now and I agree that the political class in Poland is not very good to say it polite and still today massive amount of crypto Jews have a lot to say here and the media is even worse
But the Polish people I met are very nice open minded and friendly people and me as a German I have only had positive experiences
So your article is right in many aspects.
The political system in Europe and elsewhere at this moment is totally rotten and even Putin is not in a position to save the world from what will eventually come
But than again I think positive and try to make my little family happy as that’s what is important
People in Poland are not really different from Germans Italians Canadians etc I have lived in many places Removed. Please don’t misrepresent what the Saker has said. Mod
Again I agree totally with you that the politicians are criminals and psychopaths here but not only here
I read your very good articles some years now and also the comments section is just amazing
Keep it going
Yes, political elite in Poland is one think, but look at these songs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CgFGVLoFuY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyHFfFZ14dI
Ljube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyYKMJivNWc&list=RDIyYKMJivNWc#t=68
look for Leningrad songs and check subtitles, you will quite often and very fast after release find Czech, Ukrainian, Polish, Bulgarian and then some other languages;-)
This is kind of interesting…
Since the end of WWII and the absorption of the Gehlen Org, it has been the Republican Party that has been the most involved with the fascist nationalists of Eastern Europe. That changed with Bill Clinton. I suggest anyone interested in this to read the articles in this issue of Covert Action Information Bulletin: https://ia800505.us.archive.org/1/items/CovertActionInformationBulletinNo35TheCIAInEasternEurope/CovertActionInformationBulletinNo35-The_CIA_in_Eastern_Europe_text.pdf
There is a lot to mine there.
@ Bob in Portland
Thank you for the link. It is indeed an eye opener into the history of US’s regime change activities and CIA’s operations. What’s going on today is just copybook business as usual. What a sordid state of affairs!
A lot of good info is found here,
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/
“I think that we, Russians, are basically done with the West. Keep your Jesuits, your cardinals, your Nazis, your CIA paid democrats, your Zionist politicians, your Anglo imperialists, your capitalist system, your racist contempt for everybody who is not like you (including your belief that “Europe” is “civilized” and “Asia” “despotic) – take all of it and just LEAVE US ALONE!
We won’t invade, oppress, threaten or otherwise aggravate you, but neither do we want to compete with the USA for “influence” – you like them, they like you – enjoy your lovefest! No offense, but we simply don’t need you.”
———————————
It is a very understandable feeling. It is also extremely naive and unrealistic. A bully, especially a thieving thuggish bully, will not stop bullying just by hearing the words “keep your marbles and just leave me alone”.
This is very naive, Saker. It just won’t happen. There are some methods to dissuade a bully. Sometimes they are risky, and sometimes the bullied party just does not have the means to use them. But just asking the thieving bully to leave you alone will not work. He won’t leave you alone just because you ask him or just because you turn your back on him. In fact, turning your back is the last thing you want to do.
” But just asking the thieving bully to leave you alone will not work. He won’t leave you alone just because you ask him or just because you turn your back on him. In fact, turning your back is the last thing you want to do.”
Yes, the bully will not go away,
“US Approves $3.9 Billion Patriot Missile System For Romania; Putin: “We Will Be Forced To Respond” ”
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-07-12/us-approves-39-billion-patriot-missile-system-romania-putin-we-will-be-forced-respon
and the scares resource we have better be spent on counter-missiles than on the words and please European nations, taken as whole, can only laugh at and never would degrade themselves to listen to
Dear Saker,
Your website is one of my favourites among the independent news sites I rely on. Though I agree with little of the contents of your reasoning in this article, I surely enjoyed reading it. In spite of my disagreements with most of the contents, I did (very well!) recognize your frank and no-nonsense attitude as my own, which I think is best captured by your own exclamation: “Thank god, I’m not a diplomat!”
Because I’m not a diplomat either and your attitude of how to deal with PBS-infected countries reflects very much my attitude of how to deal (but: on a personal level) with nasty neighbours. However, I don’t think those attitudes that are common on a personal level, can be extrapolated one-on-one to an international scale. That’s why, thank god!, the both of us are no diplomats ;-)
To paint a general geopolitical picture, yes: the balances of power are shifting fast. The US world hegemony is crumbling (mostly due to economic decline and political and diplomatic incompetence, compensated by too much reliance on sheer military power [which in fact is a fig leaf for that very impotence]). Russia is (economically, politically, diplomatically and militarily) back on its feet again (though still somewhat shaky, recovering fast under a living legend President Vladimir Putin). China has grown into an economic power house over the past decades and its influence over the Asian continent (SCO and OBOR Initiative) is growing extremely fast, too. Added to this the capital geostrategic mistake of the US to drive Russia and China into each other’s arms, sort of seals the inevitable end of the US-empire (and its European vassals): after 70 years of abuse of power (not to mention the European-lead colonial era before WW2), the emerging SCO won’t give them another chance. For now I applaud this change of the global balance of power, if only for sheer disgust with the past decades of US/Nato-vassals war crimes (though, as a side note, in the long term I don’t trust China-Russia-India to not abuse their power, once the SCO has established its own hegemony: Putin will not always be President, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely…).
According to the present geopolitical background, the US, though declining, is still way too powerful (because of its nuclear arms) to confront head-on. Russia (and China) have to operate extremely (I mean, extremely: walking on eggs!) cautiously, to enable the tipping of the balance of power in their favour, without provoking the US to flip over the geopolitical chessboard (i.e. nuclear Armageddon) rather than to accept geopolitical defeat. Inevitable as this process is, it will be a very painful process to the US and virtually nothing will be needed for the US to single out a scapegoat (and a scapegoat is all the neocons need to flip the chessboard…!).
Because of this extremely precarious and dangerous shift in the global balance of power, I believe it would be very unwise to follow your ideas of Russia ending its diplomatic and economic relations with Poland and the Ukraine at this stage of the power shift (it would be all the neocons need!).
So, indeed, thank god we’re no diplomats ;-) I would not even want to be in the shoes of Sergey Lavrov (infinitely less in those of Vladimir Putin: I would panic instantly!!!). Let me end with my greatest wish: I wish President Vladimir Putin (and Chinese President Xi Jinping and [just as well!] President Donald Trump [he may have inherited the hardest job of all US presidents, to save humanity!]) all the strength and discipline and restraint and wisdom and courage and sheer luck to navigate humanity through these dire straits of shifting balances of global power while avoiding a nuclear Armageddon that few humans could survive, which would set back the clock of human evolution, not to medieval times, but (as Einstein feared: “WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones!”) to the stone age.
“War is just one shot away!” (The Rolling Stones)
RT:
I’m sorry, but-
RT – comparing to the BBC or CGTN appears ( in my opinion and not only !) often to lurid, “overdone”, emotional in presenting its points of view.
It’s (in my opinion) a big minus because it looses its persuasiveness.
I’m deeply impressed by the calm and competent way the Chines inform me as a foreign viewer!
May be there is someone out there to reconsider the case and try to implement a discussion about this.
TV these days of propaganda-battles ist to important not being improved to a higher competent,
professional and persuasive level.
Information Warfare at its best.
Ukrainian fascist murder organization “Azov” sent some of its members to Warsaw to lay flowers on the monument to the massacre victims of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern_Galicia in 1943-44.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia
“Члени полку Азов увіковічили у Варшаві жертв Волинської трагедії
12.07.2017
Члени Азову поклали квіти до пам’ятника жертвам Волинської трагедії у столиці Польщі ”
http://www.polradio.pl/5/38/Artykul/315898
The same Bandera loving “Azov” organization was responsible for the murder and burning of people alive in 2014 in Odessa. Lets be precise, not “people” but Russians.
“What appears to be evident is that the fire and brutality in Odessa, hero city of the Soviet Union for its resistance to Nazi occupation in WW II, was to serve as a lesson to all those who would stand up in opposition to the Kiev junta. Today, after two years, not one of those responsible for the massacre is in jail, but some survivors still are. On March 27, about 100 neo-Nazi Ukrainians attacked a group of relatives of the victims, which every Sunday commemorates the massacre gathering at the House of Trades of Odessa. Though the European Union swear up and down not to be supporting the fascists, their support for Petro Poroshenko belies their vows. Survivors of the fire note that the fascists have become part of institutions: they head the police and the punitive battalions (Azov and Aidar), for example.”
https://www.counterpunch.org/2016/04/22/the-fire-each-time/
As a counter point to this.
It turns out that EVEN though during 1943-44 Hungarian soldiers served in German units in the Volhynia and Eastern Galicia region, they did come to the aid of Poles when called on !!!! So, TO REMEMBER THIS tragic day in Polish history every year, that hated by the EU Hungarian nationalist organization called Jobbik issued a statement referring to these tragic days. Márton Gyöngyösi, deputy leader of the Jobbik parliamentary factions and Ádám Mirkóczki, deputy chairman of the Hungarian-Polish Inter-Parliamentary Friendship Group, signed it.
In this neck of the woods Hungary has done more for Poland in times of trouble ( WW II ) then the average Pole is aware today. Those who know this regions history well will understand why the Hungarians are the only true friends of the Poles in Europe. ONLY !!!!
azov is not “an organization”, it is official police unit
Took me a while but at last I found it.
https://donbass.media/6546-boeviki-pravogo-sektora-i-azova-smenili-soldat-vsu-v-mariupole-razvedka/
they don’t look to me like police.
“it is official police unit” – Disinformation ? :-(
the opposite.
the simple fact that Wolfs Angel is official emblem of police unit is so damning the “civilized” narrative of EuroMaidan that it is prohibited to mention official status of Azov.
Indeed, Azov started as voluntary battalion mostly assembled of ex-jail fighters.
Andrey “White Fuhrer” Biletsky claimed, probably bringing his life as example, that being imprisoned by bloody Yanukovich regime is a seal of quality for Ukrainian patriot.
But it was in 2014. To the late 2017 Biletsky told to journalists that of three columns Azov consists of one is already emancipated to official police unit, and negotiations are in process for other two.
Don’t ask me how that is legally possible to be 1/3rd official and 2/3rds volunteer, I don’t know.
As of 2015 though it is official unit of National Guards which itself is part of Interior Affairs Ministry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion#Current_status
“On 11 November 2014 the Azov Battalion was officially incorporated into the National Guard of Ukraine”
But you would be double and triple cursed to ever mention this fact.
Even to follow your link, what it says:
«Нашей разведкой фиксируются факты замен на линии разграничения
Our reconnaissance/intelligence registers facts (cases, events) on the demakation/separation line of substitions
подразделений ВСУ на националистические бандгруппы, — сказал представитель Минобороны. — Так, в Мариуполе отмечается проведение ротации на переднем крае
of UAF units to nationalistic bandgroups, – said representative
of MoD (of LPR or DPR). – For example in Mariupole reported is a rotation at the frontline
личного состава ВСУ на личный состав из подразделений ДУК «Правый сектор» и полка МВД «Азов»».
of UAF personnel and personnel from Voluntary Ukrainian Corps “Right Sector” and from Police regiment “Azov”
МВД – Министерство Внутренних Дел – Interior Affairs Ministry – Police
https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D1%96%D0%BD%D1%96%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%BE_%D0%B2%D0%BD%D1%83%D1%82%D1%80%D1%96%D1%88%D0%BD%D1%96%D1%85_%D1%81%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2_%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%97%D0%BD%D0%B8
https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%B3%D1%96%D0%BD_%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%86%D1%96%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%D0%9D%D0%93%D0%A3_%C2%AB%D0%90%D0%B7%D0%BE%D0%B2%C2%BB
Dear Saker
I’m a Portuguese Catholic, live in Brazil, and reading this really open my eyes to a Orthodoxy view on ‘Papism’ that I wasn’t aware. I know very well everything related to Fatima. Orthodoxy seems to have a ‘syndrome’ concerning the role of the petrine Ministry established by Christ in the Apostolic College by granting ‘leadership’ and the keys of the Kingdom to a ‘head of His Church’ in the person of Peter, which also stands for the Church’s Unity at the image of the Trinity..
My point is that I don’t believe serious Catholics expect to ‘submit’ no one. If Unity comes one day for Christians, it will be the Work of the Holly Ghost and the Holly Trinity… not a Human endeavor. However the Consecration is not about submission. It is something related to the Era of Peace and God asked for it so to let the World now the Role he gave to Mary (Theotokos) in the economy of Salvation and the last great battle between Hell and Heaven for Souls. The Theotokos will crush the Serpent’s head. A huge grace is coming to mankind, but it must be publicly made available by a ‘Liturgical’ act of the Church in such a way that no christian or whatsoever may dispute the role of Mary after that (today all protestant denominations don’t really care about her, not to mention open hostility). So, it is a conditional Grace that God will grant in such a way that it will be publicly acknowledged that it came from a special Esther like Mary intervention and intercession action before the Trinity Throne.
And for those that were ‘unaware’ the first Gorbachev era changes started in April 1985 (at least in terms of Foreign Policy) after the Polish Pope did the [incomplete, because it didn’t mention ‘Russia’] Consecration of the World in the Vatican in front of the Image of Mary flown from the the Fatima Sanctuary to Rome. East German government announced on the 9th November 1989 that all GDR citizens could visit West Germany and West Berlin.
Lastly, I don’t know what orthodoxy thinks of Marian private revelations (for sure there must be some in Russia’s History), but this Consecration is not a ‘Papal policy’ initiative; it was asked personally by the Mother of God to the seers of Fatima, more than once and actually the Vatican and a long series of Popes refused to do it properly inside the Roman Church (aka, the influence of the infiltrated Ecclesiastic Freemasonry. Even today I don’t think it has really been done according to Mary’s will… and the World will probably face terrible consequences because of this denial, which is holding back the Grace of God for a ‘softer landing’ when the Tribulation unveils in full power.
Note: this is a side subject, but the so called Dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, so criticized by Orthodoxy, has been actually confirmed by the Lurdes Marian appearance. Bernardette in 1858, the half illiterate seer child received this answer from Mary when she asked who she was: ‘I’m the Immaculate Conception [“Je suis l’Immaculé Conception”]’. Of course she didn’t understand a word of it, bur her parish priest immediately recognized it by what it was, especially because some years before, the Pope defined this dogma officially (interestingly, this has been subject of the ‘sensus fidei’ of the people and is clearly seen in my homeland, where the Patron of Portugal is the Immaculate Conception, even centuries before the Church expressed positively the dogma. It was not until 1854 that Pope Pius IX, with the support of the overwhelming majority of Roman Catholic bishops, whom he had consulted between 1851–1853, promulgated the papal bull Ineffabilis Deus (Latin for “Ineffable God”), which defined ex cathedra the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Than four years latter,the Theotokos presented herself with that title to Bernadette Soubirous… I hope you’re not like many Protestants pertaining that these appearances are the ‘work of the Devil One’. I think she did this, exactly because of the enormous amount of controversy related to the subject, even after it was settled by a ex-cathedra magisterial act of the Bishop of Rome.
Jorge Bizarro:
… the role of Mary after that (today all protestant denominations don’t really care about her, not to mention open hostility). …
That’s not correct. In Protestant Church Mary is accepted as the Mother of Christ. Open hostility towards her is news to me. She is also seen as Holy Mary. The major difference with regard to the Catholic Church is that Protestants don’t pray to her.
I would add as regards the Consecration of Russia and the Polish view, that while yes, Orthodoxy would under the promises of these conditions be under the Papacy as the Head and unified.
The Pope being the Vicar (and therefore symbol) of Christ in His Divine Majesty’s absence. No doubt the Orthodox have no issue seeing Christ as their King.
And being modelled on the Davidic Kingdom, the Pope, the successors of Peter hold the Keys to the Kings household with authority in the King’s absence, as also highlighted by the Prophet Isaiah. The power to open and shut the Kingdom’s Doors. Then Christ giving Peter the keys of authority and the commission to feed His sheep and strengthen his bretheren, the Apostles, whom the Orthodox have succession from.
As for the Poles seeing submission of the Orthodox to the Papacy, there is in no way here anything that suggests that Russia itself as a political power suddenly becomes subject to Poland or any other state.
It’s quite the opposite – Russia instead is poised to be a blessing unto the world, which suggests that Russia will become an influential nation. The Consecration of Russia is the same as God requesting the Consecration of David. Consecrations set something apart for divine service to God. Therefore this seems more in line to interpret this as Russia becoming THE world power. Spiritually. Politically. Militarily. Though with the latter a period of peace is to be granted to the world as a result.
Though on the opposite end, the failure to consecrate Russia will see as a result America becoming communist. And a war where Russia will overrun Europe and raise it’s flag even over the Vatican, the Pope fleeing Rome, and possibly martyred. But not before a great Apostasy inflicts the Catholic Church reducing it to a shadow of itself and a remnant. Potentially even a great chastisement that will kill billions.
All very ironic considering the fact that the Popes have failed to obey this Request from God, some even making the ecumenical excuse that the Orthodox would be offended.
Johnno
Though on the opposite end, the failure to consecrate Russia will see as a result America becoming communist.
The US becoming communist? That’s quite a far stretch. The mindset of many – if not most – US citizens always had been in disfavor of taxes. Anything remotely social is being dismantled – in favor for “free markets” (which never have existed and never will). Healthcare is too big of a business to let the state take control of it. Why else are private insurers at the core of Obamacare? In the US you can either afford health care or you can’t. If you can’t, you’re screwed. Housing assistance is underfunded, otherwise you wouldn’t see so many tent cities (in the 21st century!). Feeding homeless is prohibited in many districts. The excuse for this are concerns about the safety of freely distributed food. For many US citizens raising taxes equals socialism/communism. The US always had been purely about capitalism (with a short period of some social elements beginning in the 1930’s and being in decline since the 1970’s). Many in the US pray to Mammon. Why else favoring the building of mega-churches instead of taking care of those in need. The Catholic Church and Protestant Churches are participating in that game as well. Money is more important than human life’s.
USA shows USSR traits indeed. Though those are mostly undercurrents.
Indeed, you would not see hammer and sickle replacing the eagle, but those are cover wraps….
For example USA is growing more and more anti-Christian if not anti-religious.
Is not that far from USSR?
> Feeding homeless is prohibited in many districts.
So, basically the state dictates to the man what he can and can not do with his edible property, right?
How that is “free” market? It is exactly how private food trade was mostly destroyed under Khrushchev. Even more of it.
> For many US citizens raising taxes equals socialism/communism
Exactly. False words with false meanings. So that people could not see what really is happening. 1984.
But would we make real essential comparisons instead of hijacked and misplaced words, there might turn to be more and more similarities. Inner, deep similarities, not at buzzwords level of course.
Then, all USA significant media is strictly censored on political issues – is it not USSR-like?
Then, almost all of industries degraded hopelessly and more than half of GDP is gained by military-related enterprises and services. They may not be directly military, but they would take most their contracts from those. Isn’t making MIC the only vibrant economy sector USSR-like?
Exceptionalism, all that “manifest destiny” BS and export of democracy – how is it different from USSR believe in next historic stage of human development and export of revolutions?
Arioch:
USA shows USSR traits indeed.
With my comment I’ve been addressing the permanent misrepresentation of socialism and communism.
Whilst the practiced Communism was against religions, the concept of that political idea is something entirely different. As far as I know Socialist countries still permitted churches. One of the most prominent persons of an Eastern European Church had been John Paul II.
For example USA is growing more and more anti-Christian if not anti-religious.
You’re forgetting about the so-called bible belt and Creationism. If it hadn’t been in news media about trends in the US I would never have heard about the term Creationism and the associated movement.
> Feeding homeless is prohibited in many districts.
So, basically the state dictates to the man what he can and can not do with his edible property, right?
How that is “free” market? It is exactly how private food trade was mostly destroyed under Khrushchev. Even more of it.
Giving away food for free is no business venture at all, it’s a charity (watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFtfuxMVdVk) It’s about helping those in need – for free. Residents and business owners of the area feared that this act of charity might attract even more homeless people, which would result in (1) property values falling and (2) fewer visitors to the nearby beach area. The term “free market” is an illusion anyway.
Then, all USA significant media is strictly censored on political issues – is it not USSR-like?
The censorship may look USSR like, but that’s the only analogy. US main stream media is privately owned and the owner set the guidelines. You still can avoid main stream media by turning to alternative media. I’m not aware of any existing alternative media in the former USSR.
Then, almost all of industries degraded hopelessly and more than half of GDP is gained by military-related enterprises and services.
Capitalism (the “free market” approach) had always been about making profits. Taxes are an obstacle to profits. Wages are an obstacle, too. It’s only reasonable to move industries to countries with lower wages and lesser environmental standards. Alternatively cost savings can be attained by cutting spending on maintenance. If my information is correct, then the railway system of privately owned US railway companies belongs to the respective corporations (https://insideclimatenews.org/content/boom-north-americas-explosive-oil-rail-problem). So, if almost all industries are hopelessly degraded it’s a result of the “free market”.
> Whilst the practiced Communism was against religions
There were none. Not a single state had reached Communism even if it heralded it as a goal.
> Socialist countries still permitted churches
USSR did permitted some churches too.
There were few in rural areas.
Though under Khrushchev USSR introduced economic stranglehold against religious communities.
But it was not prohibition.
> Giving away food for free is no business venture at all, it’s a charity
Does not matter, if we talk about freedom of managing your property.
> Residents and business owners of the area feared that this act of charity might attract
IOW society is dictating individuals what they can and can not do. Collectivism. Very Soviet thing. American too now.
> US main stream media is privately owned and the owner set the guidelines.
….by 6 super-corporations working in the lockstep and implementing the same censorship rules.
If the cat catches the mice fur color is of less importance.
> You still can avoid main stream media by turning to alternative media.
there was no Internet in USSR, but it was a matter of time…
> it’s a result of the “free market”.
I was talking about the end result, no matter how USA ended there.
The road was different, indeed, but the destination seems similar.
For those in the US check out this book,
“Weapons of Mass Instruction: A Schoolteacher’s Journey through the Dark World of Compulsory Schooling – by John Taylor Gatto ”
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0865716315/ref=nosim/cryptogoncom-20
“John Taylor Gatto’s Weapons of Mass Instruction focuses on mechanisms of familiar schooling that cripple imagination, discourage critical thinking, and create a false view of learning as a by-product of rote-memorization drills. Gatto’s earlier book, Dumbing Us Down, put that now-famous expression of the title into common use worldwide. Weapons of Mass Instruction promises to add another chilling metaphor to the brief against schooling.
Here is a demonstration that the harm school inflicts is quite rational and deliberate, following high-level political theories constructed by Plato, Calvin, Spinoza, Fichte, Darwin, Wundt, and others, which contend the term “education” is meaningless because humanity is strictly limited by necessities of biology, psychology, and theology. The real function of pedagogy is to render the common population manageable.
Realizing that goal demands that the young be conditioned to rely upon experts, remain divided from natural alliances, and accept disconnections from the experiences that create self-reliance and independence.
Escaping this trap requires a different way of growing up, one Gatto calls “open source learning.” In chapters such as “A Letter to Kristina, my Granddaughter”; “Fat Stanley”; and “Walkabout:London,” this different reality is illustrated.”
Now add to that TV, Radio and Movies and you have control over what the “citizen” believes.
@Alex “which contend the term “education” is meaningless because humanity is strictly limited by necessities of biology, psychology, and theology. The real function of pedagogy is to render the common population manageable.”
Interesting, of which follows that “Democracy” than is just a folkloric or should we say fakeloric event which may be actualized by the newest Big Mac Offering and probably a Live Act by Beyonce, or a ritualistic burning of some Russians, whatever is en vogue….
However, all the weight than concentrates on the ‘Managers’, WHO are they, what mechanism constitutes them, it CANNOT be the same constituent as is in effect to control the masses ?
Maybe the potential to total deviance and an intelligent energy to follow it through ? -> eg. a CULT !?
Nations like Poland, Ukraine, etc. are only vassal proxies of the major Euro-American imperial powers like Britain, Germany, and of course the United Snakes of America.
So it’s a waste of time to focus on the puppets like Poland and Ukraine and more important to direct one’s attention to the nations that are directing them.
Without American and European/NATO backing, Poland and Ukraine would not have nearly the courage to bark so loudly at Russia.
In short, go after the Euro-American Enemy, not merely the enemy’s stooge states.
That they are vassals today is without question.
But to explain the countries political behavior using terms like Ukraine, Poland or Russia are frequently inadequate and at best misleading.
The Russian Revolution was not Russian. Trotsky (Lev Davidovich Bronstein), Felix Dzerzhinsky and Stalin (Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili) were Russians ? To say that Russian Oligarchs raped Russian people during Yeltsin reign completely hides what was happening. Maybe when a person has the chance to read that Khodorkovsky transferred his Yukos shares to Jacob Rothschild things may become a bit clearer. But the label “Russian” does not diagnose the illness IMHO. That is why Alexander Solzhenitsyn wrote the book “200 Years Together”. Good Luck trying to find an English version. This book also seems to have problems to be printed in English, “Currency Wars” (vol. I and II) by Song Hongbing. The reasons are related to the above alluded to issues. :-)
I realize that general term is the fast way to go because it saves a lot of writing. But I think it is vital to be aware where the Devil is hiding. When one knows where he is hiding the behavior may be better explained.
This problem is found in all major countries. Yes, I am aware that dealing with this would cause hell for someone when writing on any given subject, But this information is not meaningless and at times quite important. That is why Secret Services keep dossiers where all such details are included to try and understand an individual. :-)
Alex,
For quite some time I’ve been trying to get a discussion going about Suvorov’s book “Icebreaker”.
In my opinion it fits the hidden historical narrative quite well, although from a completely un pc perspective. I can appreciate that it’s a dangerous text. It’s as dangerous to russin stability (perhaps) as the reality of 911 in the US.
I would be very interested in your perspective.
“Suvorov’s book “Icebreaker”.”
Only now I understand what your referring to. I thought you were referring to a this movie,
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0179861/
as I was referring to movies. I did a search and that was the first hit I got. When I saw what it was about I not sure how to react :-)
I have read Suvorov’s books. I’ll get back to you on that tomorrow.
Thanks
“IceBraker” has a number of factual inconsistencies and tries to inspire and then exploit “delusions of grandeur” in pro-soviet ad ex-soviet people.
It greately benefitted from absolutely stupid and overall destructive secrecy USSR imposed about those events. It really felt like a fresh air when first published in USSR, but later…. His later books got more and more “targeted”, tilting or even inventing facts to reach the preset conclusion.
All in all his books are mostly reiterating one concept: Stalin was bigger better smarter stronger meanie than Hitler, and the rest of Europe (UK included) were just no one’s fools.
While this approach is flattering, i must admit, it imposes total eclipse on the collaboration western powers had with Hitler before and in early stages of WW2.
With development of FIDOnet and then Internet and with de-centralizing of book printing there emerged rebuttals to Rezun’s writings, striking out many of his claims.
But i can not deny his controvercial books beign ginfally printed here spurred some interest to the topic and helped to create nuch for independent researchers.
Still, his main goal seems to be mental judo, bait us with “Soviets were most smart and most strong” theme and bait us with “look at those pathetic incompetent Western fools” theme, and softly bring us to the “Hitletr and Stalin, two equals, assaulted naive fair West” dreamworld.
PS. Start with thinking about his pseudonym. Mr. Rezun was hiding behind the Alexander Suvorov shadowm trying to make his glory emotionally back his claims. Not what a real truth seaker and crytical thinking promoter would do.
That wasn’t the take I got from the book at all. I have discussed the book with a guy tht did another translation of the book.
I also spoke with a russian monk who said it was bs. He had an icon dedicated to St Stalin. Wow.
T1 please look at my comment above to Arioch. I just started to answer him and then everything just flowed from there. If you have specific point of discussion put it out here.
“He had an icon dedicated to St Stalin. Wow.”
You know on a certain level I am not surprised and my comment above would explain this. Believe me when I say this, that to get to this stage took A Long Time and an interaction with a lot of people and their opinions :-)
Don’t take Anything For Certain. George Washington and the cherry tree. OK you probable know it is not true. But I suspect you still have this sweet feel for George. Well read this book and you might get a different image of who this guy was,
The Whiskey Rebellion: Frontier Epilogue to the American Revolution – Thomas P. Slaughter
Have a look at this video as it nicely explains “The Game”.
“Rich man’s trick”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1Qt6a-vaNM
> an icon dedicated to St Stalin
Some make icons to Yeltsyn too.
Whether that is genuine craze, trolling or black PR I can’t say
Arioch you raise a lot of good points and I hope that those that return here follow through on them and look for more detail. To explain ideas found in chapters in a few sentences is next to impossible.
Yes, I am aware of those multiple revolts. For brevity sake I just used that term because in the West that term to 90% of the people who know something about Russian history means “Russians revolted against the Tsar.” You and I know that that is a simplistic understanding of what happened. “Drang nach Osten” was and is still alive.
“All in all his books are mostly reiterating one concept: Stalin was bigger better smarter stronger meanie than Hitler, and the rest of Europe (UK included) were just no one’s fools.”
That is the “vibe” that I also get but Stalin WAS (I have no clue how to highlight text) one shrewd guy.
For starters he outsmarted the Top of the League Weasels to take the leadership position, had Trotsky axed and managed to sit tight on the “hot seat” until Soviet Union won the war. You have to be special to do that. So I will make a small bow of respect for this man. Secondly seeing how ferociously the West attacks his image leads me to believe that he must have been doing something right that they hated. He stopped the Russian Empire from exploding into bits. If I had a Time Simulation machine that allowed me to see what would have happened if Trotsky took power I would be willing to bet that Russia today would be a much worst place.
**** This needs more explaining *******
“While this approach is flattering, i must admit, it imposes total eclipse on the collaboration western powers had with Hitler before and in early stages of WW2.”
Uncle Joe was used by the West and he used the West. He played with the Germans and they played with him. It was a waiting game as to which viper would show its fangs first. That delayed entry into Poland was brilliant in 1939. He probable said to himself, “Let the Germans get blooded to the max. Let the Poles get blooded to the max. We will just watch.” Then an excuse and Joe enters to save the Poles.
From my reasoning of what I have read, I am not convinced that the reasons for Hitler’s move on Soviet Union make sense. I sense that something was going on behind the Big Curtain of the World Stage that resulted in Hitler being told a lot of bull**it as to why they must attack the Soviet Union. That is just my impression. Fighting on so many fronts and entering a country with a primitive (relative to the West at the time) road/transport system makes absolutely No Sense. None, to me the amateur historian :-)
Then we have Stalin collaborating with the West. To Americans I say, “See how quickly a Bad guy becomes a Good Guy ?”. Hollywood then starts to crank out films where the American public’s mind is reoriented from “That Bloody Stalin” to “Uncle Joe”. Oh How Sweet :-) And when everyone is sufficiently bloodied and worn out who comes in? The Americans. Ha ha ha.
The rest I leave to the reader to deconstruct and get the details. The Land-Lease, Hopkins, uranium, FDR bio and on and on. Oh, now hang on to your hat, I think McCarthy was a Good Guy. Why ? Well as usual, compile the data and let it gestate in your mind and at some point in time you may get a vision of why that may be so.
“Mr. Rezun” – Viktor Suvorov. The name change shows us that Rezun has a Huge Ego. :-)
I do like his books. “Aquarium” really sucked me in and the image of the smoke coming out of the chimney made sense to me. No way to verify this but if you want to make sure people take “this job” seriously then “the chimney” is the way to go. But, as usual there it is, if Suvorov was in the GRU how is it that he is still walking the Earth ? Ah, because he is the clever Suvorov !!!
What I took away from some of his books was that there is more subtle details to history than the History Channel version and that you need to read Widely. I read his book in the 90’s and it was one of the motivators for me to look more closely at the history of this period and this region.
Suvorov does not have the final word on the Truth. I would take what he serves as just another piece in the puzzle which needs to be carefully considered. There were many hidden actors pulling strings then so simple explanations will not work when looking at this history. This is multi-dimensional chess :-)
My brain keep telling me that there is a meaning to the word “rezun”. Is it traitor, mercenary ? Does it mean something in Russian ?
“Rezun” surname is formed by somewhat west- or south-Russian pattern. Ukrainian? Or maybe west-Slavic? Or maybe archaic Russian? Dunno.
-un(-ун) suffix is not very typical today here. But one may recall шатун – either a connecting rod in piston engine or a roaming winter bear failed to hibernate. Both way it comes from the verb шатать(-ся) to shake something or to swing oneself around. So basically the word denotes a typical action. Just I think this suffix is no more actively used in Russian, does not produce new words.
Rezun comes from резать – to cut. According to https://unotices.com/page-families.php?id=341679 that might mean some master making cutting tools. Personally I can hardly relate to this explanation, for I’d expect person who does cutting instead, but I am living today and centuries ago there could be other language patterns. Anyway, that is what search for etymology shows.
There also are mentioned less probable possibilities for butcher (carving meet) or scar-faced man.
Additionally “rezun” word is vastly used describing UPA grunts who were cutting ethnic Poles during Wolhyne Massacre. I am not sure if that word in this context belongs to Russian, West-Ukrainian or (very improbable but who knows) Polish. The very word “Massacre” is typically translate to Russian as резня, where “-я” is feminine ending, “-н-” here suffix showing non-countability (we do not look at every specific act of cutting, but at the vast mass process “fusing” all those acts into new essence), and рез- is again the same root as резать – to cut.
if “McCarthy was a Good Guy” then what McCarthism was ?
A good process? A good intention run wild and paved road to hell ? An unrelated activity bound to McCarthy without real reason?
“The Russian Revolution” term is sly not only because of many Jews were in Bolshevik party.
It also obscures another fact, that it was the THIRD revolutions in the row.
Okay, revolution 1905 maybe may be considered an isolated event, but in 1917 there still were two revolutions. Pro-european liberal revolution of February and then Bolsheviks + Social-Revolutionaries revolution of October.
Then they go on like evil Reds removed Tzar and pure Whites tried to save good old monarchical Russia. While in reality those were pro-western liberals who implemented anti-tzar coup (well, given almost total corruption of tzar family then, hard to blame them for it), and decomposed the army (in the middle of ww1) and in mere half a year deranged the land into total chaos.
Bolsheviks were utmost marginal nothing in the beginning of 20th century. They were still very small group in 1916. But towards theend of 1917 they had a huge boost, had tacit support from most monarchists, secured support of most Russian Army officers, etc. And started reassembling Russia from shards, quazi-statelets it got split into.
For all their rusophobia and atrocities they committed to reach their vision – they at least had the vision of the strong and sovereign state and pursued it, when pro-Western liberals were busy talking how they are not responsible for stupid Ruissia failed to implement their perfect civilized theories and kissing up to foreiign entities promising them support.
Kind of Jekyll-Hyde, really.
But all that is so complicated and boring, better tell a fairy tale how evil Lenin de-throned tzar and how west-supported White Guards tried but failed to save him. Creates a framework for Red Scare too. Simple and handy.
This conflict can be tracedback to russias defeat of napoleon when Alexander refused to participate in the rothscheild banking schem. Treaty of Paris, iirc.
One of the defining features of PBS according to Saker’s summary reads (emphasis mine):
A strong desire to be “part of the West” (as opposed to an imaginary “despotic Asia”) while in reality having little or nothing in common with the said “West”
Actually, the Psheks and the Ukro garbage along with the Brown And Little Tiny Insect CountrieS have got plenty in common with the West — fascist Russophobia, absolutely unfounded delusions of grandeur, and sense of entitlement. What’s missing is of course the power to be anything but a despicable bunch of honorary Euro-trash. Better still, given the ongoing demographic shifts in Western Europe, PBS peoples come out as hopelessly out of time. What are the notorious ‘saviours of Western civilization’ a.k.a. Psheks going to do about that? Take a stand against the Zionazis in general and their imperialist wars in particular won’t resonate too well with them. The honorary Euro-trash is silly beyond laughable.
Download before it disappears, something that is a constant possibility on FB ;-}
“Лоботомия ”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH9GGEKHMo0
You can laught at Nikita Mikhalkov because that takes no work. However, this will not change the fact that people such as Gorbachev and Yeltsin in the USSR and later Russia shredded the State into pieces and left the people poor and without heating in low low sub-zero winters. Right wrong will leave that alone.
As a result of this “Democratization Process”, the country Russia regressed in civilization progress at least 20 years. For this gigantic catastrophe, not one head rolled officially. Some “fell” but in none official but discreet ways. No accusations were made against these politicians or mafia thieves stealing the most valuable national property. When the “russian elite’s ” (lower case on purpose) Khodorkovsky was dividing gas fields, oil fields, mines and factories between “his family”, the ordinary Russians were on the streets trying to hawk anything and everything they had at home. In the end the “russian partner” West made Gorbachev a World hero, a man who was a traitor to his own nation. The “russian” thief Khodorkovsky was made by the West into a lover of Democracy and the little people while flying around in his private jet.
Information which sheds light on the Bandera’s followers and their ax welding murderers.
http://rusarchives.ru/online-project/kak-i-za-chto-my-boremsya-s-polyakami-antipolskaya-programma-oun-v-arhivnyh-dokumentah
“Трагические события «Волынской резни» 1943–1945 гг. до сих пор привлекают внимание не только историков, но и широкой общественности. Многочисленные монографии и документальные публикации, вышедшие в свет в последние десятилетия, позволяют детально изучить кровавую этническую чистку[1], унесшую от 60 до 200 тысяч жизней польских жителей Волыни и Галиции, описать процесс организованных украинскими националистами массовых убийств поляков на локальном уровне, назвать имена палачей, жертв и спасавших жизни поляков праведников[2]. Нет сомнений, что работа по изучению трагедии будет продолжаться и дальше.”
“«Наше восстание имеет своей задачей не только смену политического строя. Оно должно вычистить с Украины чужой, враждебный элемент и плохой собственный, родной. Только во время восстания будет возможно вымести буквально до последнего польский элемент с З.У.З. [Западноукраинских земель] и таким способом положить конец польским претензиям на польский характер этих земель. Польский элемент, который будет оказывать сопротивление, должен полечь в борьбе, а остальных надо затерроризировать и принудить к бегству за Вислу. Потому нельзя допустить, чтобы после получения З.У.З. польский элемент мог жить здесь рядом с украинцами. З.У.З. будущей Украинской державы должны быть чистыми с национальной точки зрения, потому что эти земли имеют особое значение для будущего украинского государства… Надо помнить, что чем больше пропадет во время восстания враждебного элемента, тем легче будет происходить построение Украинской державы и тем сильнее она будет»
This is ISIS of those times.
The American video streaming service Netflix has a documentary on Mikhail Khodorkovsky that paints him as a “pro-democracy dissident,” who has been unfairly persecuted by Russia and the czar/tyrant Putin–conveniently erasing the reality that Khodorkovsky was the Kenny Lay/Bernie Madoff of Russia to the nth degree.
Of course, Netflix is the same purveyor of propaganda and disinformation, which has promoted that Academy Award-winning documentary about the White Helmets, the jihadist “humanitarian” group in Syria.
As Malcolm X once said, “The media’s the most powerful entity on earth. They have the power to make the innocent guilty and to make the guilty innocent, and that’s power. Because they control the minds of the masses.”
There’s no better example of this dictum than the American fake news/media system in general.
Seems as if it’s going to be a most exciting run-up for the nomination of the 2017 Nobel Peace Prize Award. We have at least the following most distinguished contestants:
a) White Helmets / Syrian Human Rights Observatory (shared nomination)
b) Innocent snow-white dissident Mikhail Khodorkovsky
c) NATO (my true favourite)
d) The Donald / Poor_Old_Shenko (shared nomination)
If the Pilban Syndrome enters into the considerations of the Norwegian Peace Prize Committee, then we can safely ignore alternative (a) as Syria is exclusively hard-core Zio-business. Khodorkovsky is a Jewish oligarch with Russian citizenship who participated openly in the Maidan shitstorm, so his nomination should be a very serious possibility. A Donald / Poor_Old_Shenko nomination would of course be the most pleasing one in the eyes of the Ukronazis themselves — Khodorkovsky might even be discount by them as a “filthy Moskal” who shouldn’t have soiled the glorious Maidan revolution with his presence at all. Finally, a nomination of NATO for the award would seem fair not only to the Ukronazis but to all the other PBS garbage as well.
Jonas E. Alexis is my “go to man” on the deeper aspects of “The Power Game”.
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2017/07/15/the-cia-and-pentagon-behind-over-800-major-movies-and-more-than-1000-tv-titles/
More on Soft Power here,
http://expert.ru/2009/02/6/Soft_Power/
“The Soros Foundation is also providing $100 million to create Internet centers to 33 Russian higher-education institutions. Ekaterinburg University, whose modern Internet center was opened in August this year, is the tenth such establishment to take advantage of the program, while some 300 local scientists and scholars have received grants from the Foundation. ”
In memory of Yeltsin in Yekaterinburg a Museum was built. It is rumored (Nikita Mikhalkov) that Soros and Khodorkovsky chipped in. Yekaterinburg is also the place where the family and Tsar Nichols II were murdered. The place where this happened was ordered to be bulldozed by Yeltsin. Yeltsin knew who to make friends with but at least in the end he made one good decision.
https://rusreality.com/2017/05/07/museum-yeltsin-won-the-prize-of-the-award-european-museum-of-the-year/
As to Misha, it looks to me like they are keep that piece of “cold meat” warm in the minds of the naive. At the right time it will be served to the Russian population.
“ANNE WILLIAMSON AND THE RAPE OF RUSSIA”
http://archives.financialservices.house.gov/banking/92199wil.shtml
https://gizadeathstar.com/2014/08/look-back-anne-williamson-rape-russia/
Misha was right in the middle of this “Operation Rape Russia”.
The same “types” are doing a great job in Ukraine and also proposing “solutions” to the great job they themselves did on Ukraine,
http://hugequestions.com/Eric/TFC/Ukraine.html
I was in the middle of the yeltsin election years, if yeltsin lost my firm would not invest.
I was clueless. People in the streets were saying : the jews are coming back, it’s going to be ok.
such high hopes that finally something go was to happen to Russia. Shortly afterwards a friend was in tears : why are they doing this to us?
I had no answer, now I do.
You are using all the right words in describing this. When I was there at the time I had no clue what was going on. The only things that came to my mind was “The Russian mafia is out of control.” It was quite a few years that passed before I caught on because when you’re busy at the office you have no time to think, “What the heck is going on in Russia.”.
But it is these experiences plus reading a lot of history across several languages that allowed me to start to look in the “Right Places”. The biggest surprise and discovery for me was what was happening to us in the US. Here I have to thank Bush Jr. because Clinton had me completely fooled :-)
“Russian mafia out of control”
Yup, I just walked past Paul Tatum and his two bodyguards when he was murdered.
Russia’s plan when it comes to the Baltic States and Poland today is to remove them as a “threat” by financial means. All the economic cooperation with the Baltic States is canceled. The result is basically that their small economies are dying and today 5-70 people a day leave the Baltic States for Europe and never come back. These countries will be a ruin in the near future and ultimately become “Russia’s backyard” as previously.
When it comes to Poland and Ukraine it’s almost the same thing but even more drastically. The gas pipes through Ukraine and Poland won’t be used after 2019. In Poland’s case that means they will have to pay like 4 times more for gas since they are going for american gas. Ukraine will probably be split up where everything east of Kiev will be Малороссия so that’s a unique case.
The Baltic States and Poland will return to the state they were in before the Soviet Union, with other words, territories in Russia’s backyard. They cannot survive without Russia and are ultimately only a financial burden.
The so called ‘Russian world’ around Russia is today returning to the state that existed before the Soviet Union was created. The Baltic States won’t probably exist in the future and the rest will be in a financial ruin where they depend on Russia to survive basically.
We live in very interesting times.
“The Baltic States and Poland will return to the state they were in before the Soviet Union, with other words, territories in Russia’s backyard.”
Except that they will be quite empty, unless Soros sees to it that they become settled. But, if so, the majority population won’t be PBS anymore.
“The gas pipes through Ukraine and Poland won’t be used after 2019. In Poland’s case that means they will have to pay like 4 times more for gas since they are going for american gas.”
The refined amusement of the Pindos at their proud Polish bootlickers acting in strict accordance with the basest Polish jokes can readily be imagined. I wouldn’t be the slightest surprised if the Poles happily accepted the most horrible, insincere business terms just for the Greater Good of Western Civilization. Serves them right.
Oh well…it is going to be a long one.
So, let start the obvious…Saker is of Rusian descent so anything anti Russian is big no no for him. On another hand I am Pole so I have much better view of what makes Poles tick.
After explaining this let me exhibit Polish point of view.
Let’s start from those five or more points as written by Saker…
“1.Phobia (hatred and fear) for Russia and everything Russian.”
Yes indeed, there is much hatred for Russia but there is no fear. Why should it be? At this point we are “untouchable” not because we are strong and able to subdue military Russia but because Russians (and Poles) know that war between those nations is impossible. Hence, no fear.
“2.2.A strong desire to be “part of the West” (as opposed to an imaginary “despotic Asia”) while in reality having little or nothing in common with the said “West”
I would formulate it little differently…I would say that there is strong desire to NOT be controlled by the east anymore. We have had our experiences with the east (basically Russia) throughout history and we say no, but thanks no, we are not interested. Do we have anything in common with the west? I would say we have WAY MORE in common with the west than with the east. Prove me wrong Saker.
“3.A deep and bitter resentment at having been militarily defeated over and over again and a subsequent hope for a grandiose revanche.
Well, that’s a weird one. Actually the ONLY time Russians “beaten Poland military” was during resurrections in the XIX century. It was not big military achievements as Poland at that time was already erased from the map and on any scale it had a very little chance to succeed. Imagine country with 10 times more human power losing to already occupied locals that did not have any external support, worse all other neighbor powers were keenly interested for Tsar to win.
I have to remind everyone (Saker will not tell you that) that Poland lost sovereignty not because Russia conquered us. It was the result of INTERNAL decay that lead Polish traitors to seek foreign help to dismember Poland so they can keep their privileges. Poland destroyed itself…Russians just come over and helped to speed the process by using “paid for” traitors.
There were only two “true” wars between Poland and Moscow. First, when we took Moscow in the XVI? century to settle pro Polish Tsar on their throne. It was simply done to stop Rusian incursions on our borders. Moscow was taken only two times in a history…first by Poles, then Napoleon. I have to mention hjere that at that time we did not take any Russian territory. We were not interested.
The second “True” conflict was in the 1920 when we soundly beaten Russian Bolsheviks and regained OUR TERRITORIES on the east. Have to mention here that for the second time we Poles have saved Europe from the invaders…first time in Vienna defeating Ottoman empire, then second one, when we kicked up Bolshevik ass in 1920. If we lost, Germany and most of the Europe would be lost to Trotskyist armies. You have to remember that Germany at that time was most pro Bolshevik country in entire continent.
So based on that historical experience the only time we “lost” to Russia was when we either were dismembered as a country or when Russia invaded Poland together with Hitler in 1939.
“4.A deep seated inferiority complex towards both the East and the West as lyrically expressed in the Ukrainian slogan “let us drown the Poles in Russian and Jewish blood!“.”
Ha, that’s the funny one…Because contrary to what Saker says we feel SUPERIOR to Russians in every way. No kidding, that’s the way it is. Ukropians call Russians “waciak” (from the commonly used cotton filled jacket), we Poles call them “Kalmuks” (from Kalmukia oblast) as many of Russian soldiers during WWII came from the Asiatic part of Russia. They were one of the most primitive people that ever invaded Polish territory at the end of WWII.
Yes indeed, there was some inferiority complex with the west. But the true source of that was the result of Russian occupation after WWII that lead to huge impoverishment of our country, hence that was the result of it. But now that altitude changes as we see the horrendous stupidity of western countries ruled by socialists that destroys their nations by inviting social and economic disease called “immigration”. Their future looks dim, ours much better.
“5.A dream of finally submitting the Orthodox Church to the Papacy (or, in its latest iteration, to “consecrate Russia to the immaculate heart of Mary“)”
What? Who has come with such moronic thesis? Never heard of that, guess some Russian insecurity leads to such outrageous accusations. Yes, there are occasional religious exchange between Vatican and Russian ecumenical leaders. But as I understand they aim at lowering religious tensions and more importantly, Poland has absolutely nothing to do with that.
“6.A deep insecurity about itself resulting in a neverending policy of finding external allies, including Hitler, to take on the “big guy”.
Firstly, Hitler was NEVER our ally. Ever. Yes, indeed Hitler at some point (1936?) come with the initiative of creating alliance aimed against Russia but we did not want anything to do with that. As a reminder I want to point that IF we did go for it there would be no Russia anymore,
NONE,ZILCH,NADA,ZERO!!!
again, Russia as we know it would be erased from the face of the earth….
You know why? Because Hitler would conquest Russia in one month or less….
How come? Simple…the road to Moscow would be cut by more than HALF…on top of that Hitler would have safe rear and the help of Polish army …an additional reinforcement of 30 to 40 percent.
Stalin would not stand a chance and the remains of what was left would have to go on the other side of Ural mountains. They would slowly die there on their own…
But what we got? We got Hitler alliance with Stalin AGAINST Poland. I have to say FORCEFULLY here one more time. It was Stalin that opened the gates of WWII. Stalin is equally responsible for that as Hitler is. Why one may ask? Simple…Hitler would never attack Poland not knowing what Stalin would do, moreover, Polish, French, English alliance was more powerful than Hitler’s. He was maniac but he was not stupid…he would never risk war on two fronts at the same time. Ribbentrop-Molotow pact have changed that balance and this is main reason why France and England did nothing when Hitler invaded Poland.
Now about “insecurity”.
Yes, we feel insecure. After countless wars and invasions from east and the west we have rightfully have feelings like that. We do not want war but we want to make it it as costly as possible that nobody ever comes with the idea of invading us again. Throughout history Germany and Russia always collaborated against Poland. We have early symptoms of that again. From their point of view it is natural as their economies are complementary. Germany has technology, Russia has raw materials. We know that and we also know that we are the main obstacle in their endeavors. US knows that too…hence we both are becoming natural allays.
For US, German-Russian collaboration means the loss of Europe and by extension, loss of superpower status. For Poland it means total loss of sovereignty.
There is a thing that Saker would not tell you that but I will…
The MAIN tenant of American-English politics during last 200 years was simple. It could be expressed in one sentence.
KEEP THE RUSSIANS OUT, GERMANS DOWN AND ENGLISH (AMERICANS) IN!
That’s it!
This, more or less is Polish (and most of the Slavic countries as well) political aim. Because to a large degree we all have experienced the taste of Russian whip. All of us, from Bulgaria, Romania trough Slovakia and Baltic republics including Finland! Even half Russian ukropians hate them!They all “feel insecure” because they shared the common fate of Russian imperialism.
Hence the return of “intermarium” and huge Anglo-American support for it.
“7.A willingness to say anything and do anything to get the external ally to extend protection, threaten Russia or, even better, participate in a long-awaited “march on Moscow”.”
That’s a BS invented by Saker. Yes, we will poke Russian eye from time to time the same as they are poking ours. Like “tit for tat” game. All other motives I just explained above.
Now it’s time for conclusion.
I agree with Saker that at this point there is not much that can be changed. Basically it is a waiting game of “who falls first”. Polish influence is restricted to separating Russia and Germany, the rest is inconsequential.
Who will win I don’t know. On one hand Russia despite it’s posturing is a very weak (economically speaking) country. Additionally, it has no choice but submit some of it’s vital interests to China, like allowing them to spread their influence to former soviet republics. It’s a shotgun marriage and both sides know it. On another hand US and the rest of the west is standing on the precipice of economic collapse. China will be affected the most, then western Europe (especially Germany) and after that US. If one can believe some prophecies of well known political analyst George Fredman in 50 years or less there will be three superpowers…Japan, Turkey and….guess who…Poland! There is a lot on it on you tube.You know why? Mostly by default (in Polish case) as it has all social/economic/political ingredients (plus potential huge economic support of English zone).
If there is an early indicator of that then recent visit of Donald Trump here is one of them. It is sort of what Kissinger did with China in the 1970 ties. It was US that built China, China would still ride on oxen if not for US.
Anyway, time will show. In the meantime please recognize that all articles are opinions. Biased opinions. This is the case in both, mine and Saker journalistic excursions.
Now let’s see if Saker allows contrary opinions on his blog.
Your post pretty much confirms everything Saker said.
You mean contradicts not confirms , right? I understand, sometimes words get mixed up for someone using English as a second language. Anyway, it is understood that this is pro-Russian site therefore I could hardly expect any support here. But it’s ok at least some unbiased persons can draw their own opinion even those like you will be somewhat “intellectually shaken”. Because, as they say, there are two sides of a coin and here my post is the only one (among 200 hundred or so) that shows the other side.
Well, it’s a good thing you know english. It will be useful.
Good luck.
No, the appropriate word here is confirms. Your post amounts to a schoolbook example of the average Pshek’s most predictable perceptions, a.k.a. “The Polenocentric Universe” with Poland forever coming to the rescue of Western civilization.
There is a reason why your beloved Pindos resort to Polish rather than Russian jokes, mind you.
BSbuster:
You should try yourself as a comedian.
Anon, words have meanings and ideas should be supported by facts. Would you please explain why in your opinion my views classify me as an comedian? Contrary to what many think I am not anti-Russian, I just present facts as I know them. From other side. It is not my fault that those facts contradict most of what Saker have said. Facts are facts and there is nothing funny about them. Intelligent people should draw their own conclusion based on facts only. Or point where they are false.
In my very short, abrogated view Russians pay now for their hundreds of years of imperial history. They have no friends in near abroad. This is the fate of those who go high on imperial hubris then fall. Todays Russia is classic case of such conundrum. Only time will heal those wounds.
I consider myself as pro-Russian “and” pro-Polish. But you are very “selective” in your recounting of Polish history. And leave out quite a bit of Poland’s relations with Russia. Poland and Russia have fought many more wars than you recount. And it was a back and forth throughout the centuries.Though there were some before Casimir III the Great, we might as well start with him.He was the Polish ruler that turned Poland decidedly towards the East. Instead of trying to reunite the mostly Polish lands in the West (Polish by ethnicity still at that time),Silesia and Pomerania. He allowed them to come under the control of the German Holy Roman Empire.Where over the centuries that followed they were mostly Germanized. And only came under Polish rule after WWII (through the USSR’s patronage BTW). But instead he seized Rus lands (Galicia). And set Poland on the centuries to follow path of trying to take Rus lands.
The Poles after him offered the Polish throne to the Lithuanian rulers. And in exchange were able to Polonize the Lithuanian nobility and gain control over even vaster Rus lands, that the Lithuanians had seized from weak Rus states during the Mongol-Rus wars.With the rise of Russia in Moscow,war after war was fought for control of the Polish-Lithuanian held Rus lands.Finally with Peter I of Russia. Russia became the great power,and Poland with their internal strife sank to almost a vassal of her neighbors.
The great Polish nobles fought among themselves so much that Polands neighbors decided (the idea came from Prussia) to partition the state. Prussia took lands in the North (West Prussia). Austria took Southern Poland (West and East Galicia). While Russia only took back ancient Rus lands. Lands where the population was mostly Rus.The infighting among the Polish nobles continued in the remaining parts of Poland.So their neighbors divided Poland again. And finally later,a third time.But in all three occasions,Russia didn’t take the ethnic Polish lands.But instead,the lands that had been taken from them in the past.
During Napoleon’s wars against Prussia and Austria he took parts of the Polish lands they had got during the partitions and set up a “Duchy of Warsaw” as a Polish state. After his defeat Russia set up the “Duchy” as a Kingdom of Poland. To let the Poles have a form of home rule. Which was much more than the Prussian and Austrian Poles enjoyed. But that wasn’t good enough for the Poles,and they revolted in savage revolts, twice against Russia.After the second time Russia abolished the “Kingdom” and annexed the lands directly into the Russian Empire.One might ask why did the Poles waste their lives revolting against Russia.Where they “at least” had some home rule.And an official nation. While the Austrians and Prussians offered them none of that at the time.Was it maybe because the “Western minded Poles” couldn’t stand being ruled by Orthodox Easterners.Instead of by fellow Catholic Austrians or Protestant Prussians.Whatever the reason,the Poles harmed themselves the most in those revolts.
An few interesting facts followed the revolts. Under Russian rule their part of Poland became very prosperous for the region. With the immense wealth of Prussia from the German industrial boom,the Posen area (Poznan) was probably the richest area of Poland. But it was partly ethnic German.And much of that wealth went to them.The Austrian part of Poland was “dirt poor”. It was notorious in Europe of the era for its poverty.While Russian Poland “hummed” with industry. Lodz was the “Manchester” of the Russian Empire.Warsaw was known for its industrial plants.In total Russian Poland was the most industrialized part of the Russian Empire.Which lasted until WWI destroyed almost all of that.Politically Poles after 1863 had no more rights than the rest of Russia. But economically it was doing well for the average Pole. It had free trade with the entire Empire. And Polish made products were sold throughout the entire country.
With the destruction of WWI most of Poland’s industry was destroyed. And though Poland regained her independence. Her new leaders were no smarter than the nobles of the 18th Century Poland. Not being satisfied with ethnic Polish territory.Poland grabbed (once again) ancient Rus lands in the East. Meaning that she would suffer forever over that. During WWII Poland again became a “killing field”. In which around 6 million Polish citizens died. Around 100-150,000 of them are said to have been killed by the Soviets.Meaning that way over 90% of the Poles killed were killed by the nazi Germans. So the question begs to be asked.How is it that the Russians are hated for what the “Soviets” did. And the Germans are considered friends after killing millions of Poles.Is it once again the Polish lust to be accepted by the “West”. And not to be associated with the “East”.
Another point that needs to be disputed. You seem to imply that the Russians made Poland poor. Poland was poverty stricken in the interwar years. It was one of Europe’s poorest countries. Russia didn’t make it poor. The People’s Poland was far more prosperous than Poland was under the old regime.True Poland wasn’t Germany,Belgium, France,Britain,or the Netherlands. But what on earth makes you think that a backward poverty stricken land would be.Greece and Portugal,which were as rich in prewar days as Poland was at that time ,never became as rich as the Northern Western European states.Way would the old regime Poland be different.Even today without the billions in aid from the EU. And the money from the 5 million Poles that left Poland to make money. Poland would be much poorer today.
Poland today is so Russophobic that they “shoot themselves in the foot” once again.When Europeans have the choice of buying French or German products they buy them before Polish goods (even in Poland).But had “for once” the Poles got smart they could have used their position. And their old ties with Russia to become a part of the Eurasian market.But no,that would mean giving up their mindless hatred of Russia.And they just can’t do that. So instead they make of themselves another potential battlefield. Except this time it isn’t just tanks and planes to destroy them. Its missiles,and possibly nuclear missiles they invite to “visit them”.Does anyone seriously think that in a war Russia wouldn’t smash Poland.The foolishness of thinking so-called “NATO defenses” would stop the missiles from reaching any part of Poland is beyond belief.Whether or not NATO would win in the end (doubtful) the frontline states are set up to be sacrificial lambs.Meant to take the worse damage (utter annihilation),hoping that Western Europe would be spared instead. So again,instead of being smart,and trying to have good relations with her neighbors Poland does everything she can to antagonize them. Why that is,only God knows.
Ok then…let’s define what is Rus. I find (from memory) only two examples…Kievan Rus and Muscovy. All other parts are not Russian historically speaking. Belarusian are not Russian so is most of western Ukraine. You have to add Cossacks, Tatars, Lemks, Hungarians etc. When you cbelieve that Polish Lithuanian commonwealth was mostly inhabited by Rusyns you find out that maybe 20 percent fitted that definition. Those Polish-Lithuanian territories on the east with the exception of Kievian Rus were NEVER Rusian. So yes you might say that those non Russian tribes might consider themselves to be “occupied” by Poland, true Russians can’t. There is one more thing…Most of the cities on former eastern Polish territories were established by Poles and ruled by Poles for at least as long as Russians historically speaking. And no, there were no mass expulsions or mass murderers. Cossacks initially were very pro Polish until Khmelnicky decided he was offended by Polish nobility. Then he turned to Russians and Turks for help. He lost but the myth prevails…that he was “oppressed” pseudo Russian. He was ukropian that enjoyed full freedoms until he rebelled.
Russia simply decided that everyone that speaks semi-Russian and is orthodox he is Russian. By that token we would say that Bulgarians and Romanians are Russians too hence should be part of greater Russia. That’s how we got problems with Moldovia or Russians settled in Baltic republics. Most of indigenous people were forcefully resettled mostly to the far east and replaced with Russians. This is called ethnic cleansing. This was the fate of 95 percent of Poles that lived on eastern territories. Most especially after Russians took control of that land in 1939. They were killed or resettled. Only few remained and those were exterminated by Bandera ukropians.
From that point of view those lands should never be part of Russia. They are as Russian as Chechnya. It’s the same case with most of ukropia, especially south east that was part of Ottoman Turkey and westernmost ukropia mostly part of Poland for centuries. But as I have said forced resettlement removed indigenous people replacing them with Russians. That’s called total conquest by ethnic cleansing. Something that Poland never did. By that I mean we have never removed locals from their land and they always had their religious freedom. Their nobility was treated the same as Polish nobility. Also there never was any kind of forced Polonization.
Poland at that time most free religious freedom in entire Europe. There were Protestants, Orthodox, Muslim, Judaic and Catcholic Christians living side by side without much friction at all. As a matter of fact Catholics were one of the minorities there up to WWII. They never exceeded 50% of population until that time.
When it comes to industrialization you are wrong on many cases. Yes indeed some most western parts of Tsar empire, west of Vistula river did have some industry. But it was result of proximity to the west, not something Russians themselves did. Like Lodz with textile or some parts of Warsaw. But it was still pitiful in comparison to the other parts of former Poland. One look at for example railroad development proves that. Prussian parts of Poland had 5 times more density of railroads that that controlled by Rusian empire. Austrian part does not count as they consisted mostly of mountainous terrain with lots of forest and little agricultural land. On another hand Austrian empire treated Poles as equals in many ways, there was way more freedom there than in Russian part. Many polish generals and ministers in both parts, Prussian and Austrian are proof of that. You could hardly find any on Russian side.
Anyway there are two things I want to mention here. After regaining independence there was common description of Poland as Poland A and Poland B. Guess what.. Poland B was this part of Poland that was the LEAST developed part. That was the part under control of Russia! In many ways this is still the case today, not as drastic but nevertheless western parts are more developed and there are visible differences in for example work ethics.
There is another thing…before regaining independence there was a lot of fear that Poles living under Prussian and Austrian occupation might totally assimilate in relatively short time. There never was such fear when it comes to Russian part. It was out of question as Russians were always seen as “barbarians from the east”. If you look at the history all three uprisings were against Russians not Germans or Austrians. This should tell you something how we were treated there…
> This was the fate of 95 percent of Poles that lived on eastern territories. Most especially after Russians took control of that land in 1939. They were killed or resettled
you means Osadniki strata of Poles, that was forcefully driven into those lands to subdue locals and turn them semi-slaves, right?
Surely when Polish occupation of lands across Curzon Line was shifted, ex-slaves made even with their ex-masters.
Yes, it was ethnocide, planned by Poles, but failed to long long enough to be success.
> Russia simply decided that everyone that speaks semi-Russian and is orthodox he is Russian
Basically, true. There were not idea of ethnic nations until late 19th century.
But Poles, who cling to Catholicism as their self-identity even in 21st century and who took so lot of effort to Catholicise Ukrainian and Belorussian (GDL) lands should not have a problem with it.
> or Russians settled in Baltic republics. Most of indigenous people were forcefully resettled mostly to the far east and replaced with Russians
Same old fakes, boring. Slavic tribes were no less indigenous there
More “selective” recording of history. When writing history its important not to totally take a particular national side. When doing that,you only record facts that fit your agenda.And as you do,and leave out those that don’t.
Poland has no problem with claiming Silesian Slavs as Poles. Or the Kasubs in Pomerania as Poles. And what do they base that on. They base it on “language” and “history”. The same reasons that Rus people are considered as one people.The Germans likewise consider Low German and High German speakers as “Germans”. And the French consider the Northern and Southern French dialect speakers as still “French people”. Its historical nonsense for the Poles,Germans,French,etc,to deny what they claim for themselves,to Russians .Encase you were wondering what makes me and most others consider those regions as one, here is a map for you http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aIMEtnK6g_I/VJH04PKzkjI/AAAAAAAAAXk/O0-s1j9O-vg/s1600/shown%2Bin%2Bthe%2Bmap%2Bbelow.png. Its interesting that Poland claimed (and continues to) the borders of Poland and Germany should match as close as possible to Piast Poland of the year 1000. And yet find it strange that Russia should think their Western borders should be the ancient Rus borders.
You claim Poland as some sort of paradise for religious freedom in the past. Strangely enough the common people of that day didn’t share your thinking.As soon as the majority of Poles decided among themselves they would stay Catholic. Let me say actually,once the Polish nobility decided. Since only nobles had any rights in Poland at that time. They began to pressure their fellow non-Catholic nobles to convert.It wasn’t a question for the other classes. The nobles just ordered them.They forced schism in Orthodoxy by the “Union of Brest”. And then oppressed those Orthodox that wouldn’t accept that union.Which was one of the main reasons for the Cossack rebellions against the Poles. And for the reunion of much of “Ukraine” with Tsarist Moscow.The non-Catholic nobles were denied social acceptance and state offices. Which led many (most) of them to Polonize and become Catholic. But lets look at the population of Poland-Lithuania at its greatest extend for a second. Historians record that in 1618 Poland-Lithuania had around 12 million people divided into, Poles – 4.5m, Ukrainians – 3.5m, Belarusians – 1.5m, Lithuanians – 0.75m, Prussians – 0.75m, Jews – 0.5m, Livionians – 0.5m. Certainly a multinational state. With no one having an absolute majority.But with the Rus holding the majority when counted by individual ethnicity,5 million Rus to 4.5 million Poles. ( A History of Eastern Europe: Crisis and Change, Routledge, )
It can only be hatred of Russia that colors your thinking of modern Polish history. As I said before Poles can’t ever see their best interests. Their hatred of Russia dooms them to harm themselves. Polish history repeats that over and over again .The French,Italians,British,etc, have been able to overcome their historical anti-Germanism. Even the Poles have forgiven the Germans trying to exterminate them.And doing such a good job of it that if the Soviets hadn’t stopped them there wouldn’t be a Poland to hate Russians today. Had the Soviets stopped at the Soviet borders with Poland. And left the Germans to deal with Poland.Over a half a million Soviet soldiers wouldn’t have died freeing Poles from the Germans. And since the Germans had already killed around 15% of the ethnic Poles during the years they ruled there.Given a few more years they would have finished off the rest.And those they left alive and assimilated would have their “age old” desire to be “Westerners”,only considered as “Germans” today.
Since the fall of the USSR,Russia has never done anything but be friendly with Poland. They have no claims to territory. They don’t occupy Poland. They don’t even try to interfere in Polish politics. They’ve tried to trade with Poland. And have neighborly relations.But the same can’t be said of Poland.They constantly insult Russia. They make up fake claims of Russia “threatening” them,etc,etc.Personally I think until Poland overcomes their Russophobic insanity, Russia should just accept Poland will be a constant enemy state. And determine their military position to crush any attacks coming from Polish soil.Trying to be friends simply doesn’t work when the other person hates you for just being “you”.
Poland isn’t important for Russia so why worry over it. Just tell the Poles,if you menace Kaliningrad we will destroy you utterly.And then the case is closed. Poland would know clearly what “not to do”. And if they do,destroy them,and move on with life.I guess we’d see if the West would die for Poland. Of course either way it wouldn’t be a comfort to Poland.They would be a smoking shell either way.I’m not sure myself how happy the Germans would be to die for Poland. Especially as it would be the Poles that brought the war on themselves. Though after the war. They (if they survived) would almost certainly be able to reclaim the territory they lost to Poland after WWII.There would be few if any living people there to dispute their claims.And more than likely those alive would be more than happy to join Germany.
“Its historical nonsense for the Poles,Germans,French,etc,to deny what they claim for themselves,to Russians .”
That’s the issue. Majority know history so very poorly that a voted upon and monitored by the EU referendum of Crimea is seen as an act done under the Russian gun. Their views are not based on Facts but from the rinse-and-repeat “news cycles” on BBC/CNN/FOX.
Anyone who wants to take on history seriously must understand the basics of psychology and the art of manipulation. Here is one of my favorite “tribesmen” who was an Einstein of this art. Mr. Edward Bernays, whose “austrian” uncle was Sigismund Schlomo Freud. Freud was no genius and Jung realized it. To Jung BS is BS but he knew that if properly packaged and advertised the Masses will think it is gold. But I digress, Bernays was a true Master and here is some information about him,
” [The] American business community was also very impressed with the propaganda effort. They had a problem at that time. The country was becoming formally more democratic. A lot more people were able to vote and that sort of thing. The country was becoming wealthier and more people could participate and a lot of new immigrants were coming in, and so on.
So what do you do? It’s going to be harder to run things as a private club. Therefore, obviously, you have to control what people think. There had been public relation specialists but there was never a public relations industry. There was a guy hired to make Rockefeller’s image look prettier and that sort of thing. But this huge public relations industry, which is a U.S. invention and a monstrous industry, came out of the first World War. The leading figures were people in the Creel Commission. In fact, the main one, Edward Bernays, comes right out of the Creel Commission. He has a book that came out right afterwards called Propaganda. The term “propaganda,” incidentally, did not have negative connotations in those days. It was during the second World War that the term became taboo because it was connected with Germany, and all those bad things. But in this period, the term propaganda just meant information or something like that. So he wrote a book called Propaganda around 1925, and it starts off by saying he is applying the lessons of the first World War. The propaganda system of the first World War and this commission that he was part of showed, he says, it is possible to “regiment the public mind every bit as much as an army regiments their bodies.” These new techniques of regimentation of minds, he said, had to be used by the intelligent minorities in order to make sure that the slobs stay on the right course. We can do it now because we have these new techniques. ”
http://www.historyisaweapon.org/defcon1/bernprop.html
“regimentation” = “manipulate” !!!!
To help in your effort to educate here is a map of Europe 1000 AD.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/map-europe-1000.jpg
“You claim Poland as some sort of paradise for religious freedom in the past.”
Well I will go one better, I bet majority on this site from the Eastern side of Europe think that their relatives came/were related to the warrior class or better. Bad news, you were most likely Not. If we take a human lifetime as being 60 yrs., then 2 such lifetimes back most people in Eastern Europe lived like this or worst,
“Galicjia in 1920”
http://tinyurl.com/ycgr66hb
http://tinyurl.com/y83z44py
Anyone of us in 1920 would have had a very high probability of being one of the people in that picture. Now try to imagine how it looked even farther East than Galicia :-)
So basically it wasn’t Until After WWII that people seen in those pictures were slowly being integrated into a None-serf-dirt poor peasant World. WW II ended ~72 yrs ago !!!
The text above about Bernays explains ,in my mind. what you have written here,
“It can only be hatred of Russia that colors your thinking of modern Polish history. As I said before Poles can’t ever see their best interests. Their hatred of Russia dooms them to harm themselves. Polish history repeats that over and over again .The French,Italians,British,etc, have been able to overcome their historical anti-Germanism. Even the Poles have forgiven the Germans trying to exterminate them.”
But the one that takes the cake for me in this “Whose Your Enemy ?” show is Germany and Germans. I mentioned in one of my comments “Generalplan Ost” and the good work of German Einsatzgruppen but I bet most here didn’t go any further than my comment. I am almost certain that 95% of East Europeans know nothing about this.
So we have extreme hatred of Russia but nearly brotherly love of Germans and Bandera loving Kiev government in XXI Century. These Banderaits called “Ukrainians” in the West are people that are tolerated by Kiev while in the mean time Poland pretends that nothing is going on there. Now that is Bat Sh*t Crazy.
https://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/r960-5eea67acc9f958c8d6ae3014bef740ca.jpg
From a different country but about the same social-engineering methods,
“President Donald Trump has made an everlasting meme out of the term “Fake News”, or better yet “Really Fake News”. Trump has been the victim of the biggest media smear campaign in history, a smear campaign in which billionaire enemies own and/or operate most of America’s media. This we all know.
But what the genius billionaires who control most of the American government do not realize, is how blatantly obvious the circus of media has become. Or, maybe they simply don’t care? Look at Trump from the pragmatic point of view, just for a second. Half the voters in America selected him as president, but somehow he is the world’s second most evil man for ALL of the media. Let’s examine the media coverage of the Trump-Putin meetup in Hamburg, just for a reference point.”
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2017/07/19/neo-butler-vladimir-putin-and-the-hamburg-testament/
Manipulation, manipulation, manipulation … Repeat after me “Manipulation, manipulation, manipulation … ”
“And doing such a good job of it that if the Soviets hadn’t stopped them there wouldn’t be a Poland to hate Russians today. Had the Soviets stopped at the Soviet borders with Poland. And left the Germans to deal with Poland.Over a half a million Soviet soldiers wouldn’t have died freeing Poles from the Germans. And since the Germans had already killed around 15% of the ethnic Poles during the years they ruled there. Given a few more years they would have finished off the rest.And those they left alive and assimilated would have their “age old” desire to be “Westerners”,only considered as “Germans” today. ”
May be this will help,
“Royals in 1933 saying “Hello” ”
http://tinyurl.com/yatvtygb
“Prince Harry caught mixing up his uniforms”
http://tinyurl.com/yckhd5za
“Poland isn’t important for Russia so why worry over it. Just tell the Poles,if you menace Kaliningrad we will destroy you utterly.And then the case is closed.”
It will not be Poland that will be willingly threatening Russia, that is suicide. To believe that Russia is now threatening Poland is to be in a hallucination state. It will be the US/NATO stationed in Poland that will be ,if it so desires, doing this job with the Poles standing in front of them like Puppets.
“I guess we’d see if the West would die for Poland.”
I mentioned in my previous comments the “Phony War” and Yalta to counter this. So lets just look at one of the generally used explanations by Poland’s Allies why it is that they pretended to be at war and did nothing while they were being smashed to pieces,
“The Royal Air Force dropped propaganda leaflets on Germany and the first Canadian troops stepped ashore in Britain, while western Europe was under a period of uneasy calm for seven months.[8]
When Leopold Amery suggested to Kingsley Wood that the Black Forest (Germany) be bombed with incendiaries to burn its ammunition dumps, Wood—the Secretary of State for Air—amazed the member of parliament by responding that the forest was “private property” and could not be bombed; neither could weapons factories, as the Germans might do the same.[9]”
If anyone in Poland believes any of this nonsense then there is no hope for them to understand anything else. And lets not forget, 90% of German forces were on the Eastern Front when Poland was attacked 09/1939. So Any Serious bombing and movement of troops from the West by the Allies of Poland could have stopped the whole War. But Poland’s Allies say they were not ready. Right, they didn’t have the right shoes and socks to move forward. If you can drop leaflets you can drop bombs or even bottles full of flammable material. BS is BS.
Wake-Up Poland because History Does Repeat !!! The people that make sure that it Repeats are the source of you problems. Try hard to identify them because they are very well camouflaged and very well funded.
“The Worst Ideological Enemy Of The US Is Now Europe”
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-07-20/worst-ideological-enemy-us-now-europe
> But it was still pitiful in comparison to the other parts of former Poland. One look at for example railroad development proves that. Prussian parts of Poland had 5 times more density of railroads that that controlled by Rusian empire. Austrian part does not count as they consisted mostly of mountainous terrain with lots of forest and little agricultural land.
It really is funny.
Russia-taken part of Poland was neglected because it was in worse conditions than other parts of Poland. Except for those parts that were worse than Russia-taken ones, so we would remove them from our unbiased objective comparison.
> After regaining independence there was common description of Poland as Poland A and Poland B. Guess what.. Poland B was this part of Poland that was the LEAST developed part
I see, so somehow Austria-taken part of Poland, that was said above to be underdeveloped even comparing to Russia-taken part, now is counted as A-class developed part. Funny.
Well, well…. In 1939, when Polish invasion was repelled, there came to be two parts of Ukraine. Western Ukraine, and Eastern. And – “Poland W was this part of Ukraine that was the LEAST developed part”
> Most of the cities on former eastern Polish territories were established by Poles and ruled by Poles for at least as long as Russians historically speaking.
Indeed. Native citizens of Poland-occupied western Ukraine had almost no means to move up the social hierarchy.
So, yes, Poles were building cities for Poles.
And here we come to yet another derogatory term: rogul/ragul
This term Poles started to use to describe Ukrainians.
Why? Because it referred to the special rail, blocking the road.
Not only those were Poles building the medieval cities, Ukrainians jsut were not allowed to enter them.
Apartheid state as it was.
And Poles are proud with such a history, and think the oppresses nations of those land should still feel some gratitude to them….
For now just a few comments. It is good that you bring up the issue of Rus. The historical exposition you outlined is a good one. To help understand what was going on for the interested should impress on in these lands it is good to see a map vs. time of Europe. Here’s a good one that I found.
“The History of Europe: Every Year ”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWWLECJnylM
To visitors: Observe especially what starts to happen after 400 AD and on. Look for names such as Germany, Russia, Poland Ukraine etc. Watch the changes in size and how suddenly Poland disappears.
“To help understand what was going on for the interested should impress on in these lands it is good to see a map vs. time of Europe.”
Cursor and cut and past problems :-)
“To help understand what was going on in these lands it is good to see a map vs. time of Europe.”
Well I was going to give a rest to this article but seeing that the comment count went suddenly from 272 to 278 I let myself be sucked in again.
Reading the comments here I come to the conclusion that the majority are not Americans or from the Anglo Family. The reason for this is probable disinterest or simply not knowing the underpinnings of the issues. To have a meaningful discourse one needs to operate with “information” and not with stupid and vulgar terminology such as “prostitute” or “neighbors who are bat-shit crazy “. People who use such terms are operating on a low information level, in this case, of what is going on in Poland (same goes for Ukraine). These terms are thrown about to define a Country but when it suits the writer a different term is used to identify the Group that is being discussed. This is probable done because the author knows more about the internal situation and used this more specific identifier. Example,
“When I speak of the Ukraine, I am referring only to the Nazi occupied Ukraine, not Novorussia or Crimea. “
The above is an accurate picture of what is going on in Ukraine. Not all Ukrainians follow Bandera. In the case of Poland however ( not knowing the internal situation,) no such distinction is made. Instead the “terms” such as “hate-filled lunatics “ are ascribed with a broad stroke brush to the Nation. Well I got News for you Saker, that “distinction” you make above using the term “Nazis” for Ukraine is also true for Poland. But the term that applies for Poland is different. It is “Zydokomuna” which translates as “Jewish-Communism” and not as Wiki says “Judeo-Communism”. So Poles have identified in their midst not “Zionist-Communism” but “Jewish-Communism”. The existence of such a faction surfaced in the public square vividly in Poland during the 1968 “expulsions”. The other (broadly speaking) faction that opposed them was the “Nationalist-Communists”. More here,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBydokomuna
The “expulsion” is one of those frequent events in history that publicly is explained as being X but in reality was all about Y. Curious reader will need to do some work to unravel this.
“Those that wanted separation were a small minority. But then the Bolsheviks pandered to minority nationalism in the USSR. And made a separate SSR for Ukraine. They (at first) almost banned Russian.”
Yes, it is always a “small minority” that seems to tear the house down. Yugoslavia went through the same process but the average American is clueless how this was played out. All it took was for Bill and Hillary explaining it so well to the nation, that one could simple not believe any of those conspiracy nuts who said it was not so.
OK, mu observations.
BSbuster – “know that war between those nations is impossible. “
Instead of “impossible” I would use “suicidal” if started by Poland. Attack by Russia would probable Only occur If Poland was told by the West to do something to provoke this. The supposed “fear” of Russia is more a media generated BS storm. Similar to “Russia hacked US Elections”. The average Pole I suspect fears more losing his job, paying his outstanding credit and house bills.
BSbuster – “I would say we have WAY MORE in common with the west than with the east.”
The only thing I can think of is the Roman Catholic Church and submission to the Pope in Rome. Oh wait, do you mean all the marriages to royal courts in the West ? If so, what fruits has that brought to the Polish people. I say exactly Zero. I would even venture to say that the average Western citizen would find little in common with Poland besides being in the EU.
BSbuster – “resurrections in the XIX century.”
Were a waist of people and led to huge transfers of wealth. One of the beneficiaries of this were a tiny minority who knew how to count shekels and had a lot of them. Also it was a great time to buy nobility titles from the dead or exiled nobles. Once their lands were bought the person would change their identity to a Polish Nobel.
BSbuster – “I have to remind everyone (Saker will not tell you that) that Poland lost sovereignty not because Russia conquered us. It was the result of INTERNAL decay that lead Polish traitors to seek foreign help to dismember Poland so they can keep their privileges. Poland destroyed itself…Russians just come over and helped to speed the process by using “paid for” traitors. “
The 3 partitions of Poland were a Prussian, Russian (with a Prussian as leader) and Austrian Affair made easy to happen by a very poor understanding of the West by the Polish Nobel’s. The height of foolishness was the election of a Austrian drunk to their king. This drunk drained the national treasury to such an extent that steps leading to partitions were a child’s play. There was no money to raise armies to protect the State. The lesson from this has still not been learned in Poland.
You would think that “The Phony War” in 1939 ,where the British strained themselves to fly over Germany and drop leaflets while Poland was bombed by the Luftwaffe, would have made some headway. NO !!!!
BSbuster – “Have to mention here that for the second time we Poles have saved Europe from the invaders…first time in Vienna defeating Ottoman empire, then second one, when we kicked up Bolshevik ass in 1920. If we lost, “
Firstly, no average American or Anglo will understand any of this. Secondly, Western European elites could care less. The best demonstration of this were the 3 Partitions and even more vividly when the Allies made the deal in Yalta. But again, Polish people have not learned anything from this about the West.
BSbuster – “that Germany at that time was most pro Bolshevik country in entire continent.”
You falling into what Saker is doing to Poland. Generalizing to the extreme. Germany was pro-Bolshevik ???? Ok we had this puppet there raising a dust storm, Rosa Luxemburg. She was a fine German women not, who took the theories of her guru Marx and tried to march Germany to Utopia. She, just like Lenin, enjoyed the wonderful life in Zurich at one point. A city where poor revolutionaries frequently rested their bones, before setting off for The Great Struggle.
BSbuster – “we Poles call them “Kalmuks” “
Now this one is way in orbital space as I have no clue where you got this. I have read thousands of articles and comments in the Polish domain and I have never come across this as being a “general” term for Russians. You could have left this out as it helps nothing in this discussion and your country. :-(
BSbuster – “But the true source of that was the result of Russian occupation after WWII that lead to huge impoverishment of our country, hence that was the result of it. “
Now things are getting worst. For starters, you were occupied by the Soviet Union headed by Stalin (a Georgian) Not by Russia. You and many people keep making this mistake. Poland was put under occupation (as were part of China, Germany, Korea and Japan) thanks to the Americans, British and Soviets when they made the deal in Yalta. Don’t blame this on Russia !!!! Lesson completely unlearned in Poland.
Secondly, the Germans completely leveled your country. Einsatzgruppen eliminated a huge section of your intelligentsia and the rest of the job was done in the “concentration camps” used to house workers for IG Farben and other German War Machine Firms. Yes people died there but the primary function of the camps was labor supply, as the Germans were busy conquering the World.
But when the war ended your country was rebuilding. You think you did it alone ? No, certain materials were coming from the East. Oil being one of them. But during all that time under Soviet “occupation” you were building cars, tractors, trucks, ships, helicopters, schools …. Now you Don’t build your own Polish cars , tractors, trucks, ships, …. Poland is closing hospitals, schools, … Today Poland works for The West.
BSbuster – “stupidity of western countries ruled by socialists”
Your diagnoses is extremely weak. The people destroying your country and Europe are Very Smart. Read “Tainted Source” – John Laughlan if your lucky to find it or “Der stille Putsch” by Jürgen Roth if you can find an english version.
BSbuster – “ “5.A dream of finally submitting the Orthodox Church “
This one I will tackle next time.
BSbuster – “ “6.A deep insecurity about itself resulting in a neverending policy of finding external allies, including Hitler, to take on the “big guy”. “
Not sure what Saker was driving at with“finding external “ as that is the normal place to look for them.
This is all if-ology, but to me it would have made more sense then to give Hitler the corridor he wanted AND wait him out while he attacked the Soviet Union. The French had no problem raising their hands Up and save their people and country. Why? Because they were smart. They knew that it was just a matter of time before the Germans would be wasted. You can not fight a war in all directions and expect to win.
Those alliances with France and Britain were setups to bloody Germany and Soviet Union. That is why we have the Abbeville Conference (many documents still secret to this day) and then suddenly ,unknown to many, “The Phony War”. It lasted for nearly a year while Poland was being shredded by Germany (Not Nazis).
To be in alliance with Hitler would have been the Ultimate National Tragedy of All Ages. Why? Because the Germans never saw Poles (Slavs) as equals and continue to see the Poles (Slavs) as a more primitive culture than themselves. A lesson Poland has still not learned and I doubt Russians understand it either. Russia may be viewed by them a bit better than Poland but that is only because Russia is a Nuclear Power and is simply a giant when compared to Germany. For those that can read that is clearly outline here,
http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%206247.pdf
Nothing has changed since on this subject. Slavs are not equals to the people beyound the Oder River and farther. Bad news, I know, but if you have a chance to drink beer with the right people you will find this out.
BSbuster – “ If one can believe some prophecies of well known political analyst George Fredman in 50 years or less there will be three superpowers…Japan, Turkey and….guess who…Poland! “
For me this is dis-informatio (regarding Poland) or Friedman is smoking hash.
BSbuster – “ If there is an early indicator of that then recent visit of Donald Trump here is one of them. “
Trump is indicating what US always indicates to Poland. You are a Pawn. Poland is a pawn to such a degree that its citizens must have a visa to enter the country. Unlike for instance Czechs. A friend of mine in Warsaw told me that the so called crowds for Trump were bussed in and sat on special bleachers when he spoke. The real Poles were busy working their measly average $500-600 a month.
I follow with interest and really enjoy the discussion between BSbuster and Alex – both of you have valid points.
One point is worth to underline – Polish people have no interest to fight Russia, and most Poles do know that they are being used as pawns in geopolitical games. s.c. Russophobia in today´s Poland is a ´fake news´ in my opinion.
“One point is worth to underline – Polish people have no interest to fight Russia, and most Poles do know that they are being used as pawns in geopolitical games. s.c. Russophobia in today´s Poland is a ´fake news´ in my opinion.”
In a nutshell that is it. The point that I am trying to drive is that there is a V Column in Poland (not only this country) and there are plenty of Poles who will betray the country for a bag of gold. The best recent example of this for them is Tusk. Their last true nationalist was a Parliamentary representative named Lepper. He “hung himself” on a Friday and the authorities waited till Monday to perform an autopsy as they did not detect any foul play :-)
You will see similar pattern in Sweden with Anna Lindh, Dag Hammarskjöld and Olof Palme. If your in high position and you go against the Globalists it will be bye bye.
Very heavy Karma is being payed off by Sweden for Olof Palme in my opinion.
Ukropians call Russians “waciak” (from the commonly used cotton filled jacket), we Poles call them “Kalmuks
Funny, funny.
1. Derogatory Ukrainian terms for Russians are Moskal and Katsap (he-goat, probably due to beards not popular in medieval Europe but popular in Russia).
2. Vatnik means anti-maidan person, implying he is still mentally living in USSR (because sure there can be no any other reason to oppose EuroMaidan). It is not necessarily Russian. Well, as Ukrainians are going more and more nazi, the terms overlap more and more. Still those were different terms. Also, it is a VERY recent invasion, coined by Russian pseudo-liberals in 2011 and borrowed by casserole-headed in 2014. This term is so recent that mentioning it in post pretending to give historical oversight is funny.
3. KalmYki (not kalmUki, when those “civilized europeans” would finally master alphabet? ) is a steppe nomadic ethnicity. It is common claim that Lenin has a share of Kalmyk blood, apart of Jewish blood. Traditional part of Hitler’s propaganda, natural compliment to “subhuman asians”, “Bolshevik hordes”, “saving civilized Europe” and so on.
Ukronazi (nationally-aware ukrainians, as they self-identify) flog this horse ever on. Now we have a first hand evidence this force is strong within Poles too (at least within nationally-aware Poles). Like i said above, nothing changed since 1935, not a thing. Just American Exceptionalistan substituted Third Reich for Poles. They try to keep up with times marching :)))
Ill tell you the story as told to me by my mother in law. She comes from village near Sandomierz in southern part of Poland. During the Russian war operation there at the end of 1944, front line run right trough her village and that area have changed hands several times. She spent over a month in the bunker villagers built there. They only left it to relieve themselves, still 4 people died out of twenty something. In her own words she described o me her impression on both sides…german soldiers quiet, disciplined, clean and not stealing anything. Russians were mostly “Kalmyks” free whelling, dirty, stinking, most of the time drunk but still friendly to locals. And they stole everything and anything they could from horses to watches. Officers were mostly Russians. One thing that was deeply ingrained in her mind was when several of them died during unexpected shelling. They were drinking in what was left over from orchard, playing on harmoshka, drinking moonshine and dancing. But they were not aware that there was an enemy artillery observer in nearby half burnt windmill. This sealed their fate. More than twelve died in an instant. Judging from her observation there was at least 3-4 russian soldiers killed for single german one. Russian army was simply one huge poorly disciplined armed mob. They themselves used to say “U nas mnogo ludiej” that could be roughly translated as “we have many people” (so we don’t care how many of us die).
There were two more impressions there. After the front line moved westward they survived from starvation by brewing moonshine thanks to well hidden potato stash russians did not discover. They could get anything for it….bread, tushonka even cow. The second thing she vividly remembers were words of Russian officer. He said;
“Don’t be so happy for us chasing germans away from here. You don’t need to worry about frontline soldiers. But be very worry about those that will come after us”
He was right … Her father was almost beaten to death because Russians found out that one of his sons was member of Polish resistance. What have saved them was immediate relocation to another part of the country 300 kilometres away where nobody knew them.
Those are true stories as remembered by old Polish generation. Germans in Germany got it much worse from both sides, allies and Russians. Russians raped woman and sent males to Siberia, allies starved to death half a million or more war prisoners in open fields.And we have changed oppressors, that’s all. Indeed Stalin lost 600 thousand people chasing Germans away. But in the end he could not stop as at that time he was gaining COLONIES to use in the future at his pleasure. So he did.
“German soldiers quiet, disciplined, clean and not stealing anything”
Ah yes,so clean and disciplined. Very disciplined indeed. No question about that. When they were ordered to execute hundreds of thousands of Poles. There was no question that they were obedient. They just did it. When they were ordered to send millions of Poles to slave labor in Germany,they obeyed without question. When expelling a million or more Poles from their homes in Western and Northern Poland they were “disciplined” in following their orders.And of course they didn’t steal.Why would they. They controlled the food supply. So when they put the Poles on starvation rations. And shipped the rest of the food to Germany.They did that in a disciplined manner.Not directly “stealing”.Just shooting the farmers that didn’t obey them.Of course the cities in Poland were “slightly” different. In a “disciplined” manner the Germans gathered all the historic art works. And anything of industrial value together and shipped it to Germany.But probably they took few watches.They already had a lot of them.
Interesting your relatives fail to remember those days in ” the General Government of Poland”. The German governor used to joke about those “disciplined” days. He said that in some occupied countries when the Germans executed civilians for something they printed wooden signs to announce it. But he couldn’t do that in Poland. There weren’t enough trees in Poland to provide that much wood for the number of signs he’d need. Ah yes,the “good old days” in Poland. The 6 million Polish citizens butchered in 6 years by those “German soldiers quiet, disciplined, clean and not stealing anything”.Here is a Polish movie from 2014 that had a different memory of those “clean,disciplined,Germans”:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFKH4d6pDWA
But as I said before. The Soviets should have stopped at the borders. Let the “clean,disciplined,German soldiers” deal with the “Polish question”. They seemed to have left a fond happy memory behind them.A few more years of those “happy times”,and the Poles wouldn’t be a problem to today’s Russians at all.But instead they wasted their lives driving those “clean ,disciplined” fellows from Poland. And then foolishly gave Poland a quarter of Germany as well. Now if that isn’t a text book of errors,I can’t think of one.
Uncle Bob , looks like you are one step ahead of me. Must be time zones and moderation delay.
Good job of reminding people of those pesky little details.
Cheers :-)
You mix up things. Frontline German soldiers rarely executed anyone. This was the task of special forces that followed…forgot the name.
“Germans in Germany got it much worse from both sides, allies and Russians. Russians raped woman and sent males to Siberia, allies starved to death half a million or more war prisoners in open fields.”
I love your stuff, I really do.
So, Germans, the same ones that stuffed people in barns and lit them up were OK. Nice guys.
Germans that stuffed your people into concentration camps run by Austrian officers and worked your people to death were, —> “german soldiers quiet, disciplined, clean and not stealing anything.”
But the Soviet Red Army that beats back these Invaders from you land, all of the Red Army, were Beast, Smelly, Drunk and Rapists riffraff . Wow, in one case you try to paint the Germans based on a single story ignoring the rest of what they did. For the other side ,that under a gun (NKVD forced the Soviets to move forward), liberated your country and died on your land doing it , you throw them into the trash-bin of Primitive Aliens. I think you have things a bit distorted friend. That is not fair.
By the way, look at one of my comments today to see Who was the Soviet Red Army. Hint, not solely Russians. So don’t repeat this mistake like the West is doing with “Polish death camps” when referring to the German’s handy work !!!!!!
Guess this requires replay. I’m tired of proving obvious (to me) things but I have no choice here.
Let’s get to work then. Ill use the same approach as I did in case of Saker article.
You say
“BSbuster – “know that war between those nations is impossible. “
Instead of “impossible” I would use “suicidal” if started by Poland”
In short that’s a nitpicking. There are many synonyms to be used here. But the main idea is the same. Using your term “suicidal” leads to conclusion that therefore is impossible. There is another reason it is impossible. Any Polish-Russian war leads to total annihilation of the world. This is why I used term “impossible” as it better reflects reality…your term is too narrow in this case.
You quote
“I would say we have WAY MORE in common with the west than with the east.”
then you try to insinuate (not prove…you can’t) otherwise
Well let’s look on it from another side. Would you please quote what we have in common with the east? Nothing, except the genes. Politically, culturally and socially we have always looked to the west. Military we fought with the east and south (Tatars, Turks, Russians). Well if that is what you consider “common” so be it. I want to remind you that brightest polish minds always emigrated to the west, from Chopin, Curie-Sklodowska to Kosciusko and many, many others. West culture always did have huge influence here from painters to architects and culture. You can’t find any significant eastern cultural traces here. The only polish eastern “hero” you could mention here is Felix Dzierzynski but he never was considered polish patriot, just regular scum-back who sold his services to Bolsheviks.
Anyway, it does not matter from the logical point of view how the west looks at us. What matters is where we look for examples to imitate. Surely, Russian examples are not the ones we want to emulate.
Next
BSbuster – “resurrections in the XIX century.” where we lost a lot of everything…
Indeed we did. It might look stupid to you but for freedom you have to pay with blood and material things. As I said (or meant to say) freedom always have a price but you never know how high it is going to be. It was one of the great American heroes (Jefferson?) that have said that “Freedom has to be paid in blood of tyrants” , right? I want you to consider what would happen if we were as docile as say Czechs that licked Nazi boots during whole occupation.We are proud nation and the main reason we got what we got after the end of WWI was mainly BECAUSE west recognized that Poland would never submit to Russia and other occupiers. So the best choice was to give us independence we have earned in many ways and one of them was because we Fought to get it!
Unfortunately patriotism is dirty word nowadays and it seems that you are the one that thinks it is better to hope than fight. We differ so much with the west on that matter. On that point I concede that this is more eastern that western trait.
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BSbuster – “I have to remind everyone (Saker will not tell you that) that Poland lost sovereignty not because Russia conquered us.
Absolutely true. Nothing that you wrote here contradicts that. Internal decay was the main reason we lost our sovereignty. Hence your statement is moot here.
another one
“BSbuster – “Have to mention here that for the second time we Poles have saved Europe from the invaders…first time in Vienna defeating Ottoman empire, then second one, when we kicked up Bolshevik ass in 1920. If we lost, “
you
Firstly, no average American or Anglo will understand any of this. Secondly, Western European elites could care less.”
Well they don’t but we do. Next time we will pay back if circumstances allow us. One of those is our refusal to take “immigrants”. We don’t feel we should pay for the western idiocy. No hiding for Merkel that could point that “everyone takes immigrants”. She has to take it alone.
next;
BSbuster – “that Germany at that time was most pro Bolshevik country in entire continent.”
You falling into what Saker is doing to Poland. Generalizing to the extreme. Germany was pro-Bolshevik ????
Well this is a very disappointing one for me. I have assumed that you know way more about post WWI political situation in Germany. Socialists, nihilists, anarchist, menshewiks, trotskyites-Bolsheviks were the main stream of thought in Germany at that time. Rosa Luxemburg was just but one of many examples. I want to remind you that she was liquidated AFTER Trotsky lost war with Poland NOT before. One must ask if that was coincidence? Even when Hitler got to power in 1932 Berlin was 90 percent anti-Nazi and pro socialist/communist. Goebbels did miracle turning that city around. Germany was VERY ripe for Bolshevik takeover at that time. Look it up so you know more next time this topic comes around.
BSbuster – “we Poles call them “Kalmuks”
Well you are partially right there. This was the term frequently used in my family so that’s why I quoted here. There are many derogatory terms around relating to Russians here but I think it is inappropriate to use them here.
BSbuster – “But the true source of that was the result of Russian occupation after WWII that lead to huge impoverishment of our country, hence that was the result of it. “
You try to prove otherwise so let me straighten that up
Let me first tell you the story.
During my many years spent in US I had the opportunity to talk to many Russians, Ukrainians and the like. When Soviet times come to the discussion one of the main arguments used by them against us was, I quote;
“We were soo poor because all what we have produced went to Poland!”
You know what?
This is EXACTLY the same argument polish apparatchiks used when explaining why people in Poland are suffering.
They said
“We are soo poor because everything we make we must send to Russia!”
So yes indeed we did make those things you mention here. But as an example I tell you few things…
There were about 2 private cars of shitty quality per 100 people in around late 1970-ties.
It was about the same with phones, little better with radios and TV’s. Food sucked because everything that was of semi-decent quality was sold abroad. All what was left was pigs feet and ears. Then things were rationed like 2 kilo of sugar per person or one liter of vodka a month. Even cigarettes. I personally remember getting rationed bag of lose cigarette leaves to make cigarettes myself using whatever paper was available. That’s how “rich” we were! Buddy don’t tell me how developed Poland was under Russian occupation. You know shit about it so better stay quiet on that topic.
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BSbuster – “But the true source of that was the result of Russian occupation after WWII that lead to huge impoverishment of our country, hence that was the result of it. “
you
Now things are getting worst. For starters, you were occupied by the Soviet Union headed by Stalin (a Georgian) Not by Russia.
Huh? Playing word games here? It’s like saying that ISIS good because they changed name as they splitted from Al Queda!
Dud, there is continuity of thought and ideology here. When they hang Zhirnowsky and bury Lenin and Stalin then I start to believe that some important changes are taking place. So far I see growing worship for that Stalin monster there. Why should I believe that much has changed? Russia lies low now but who can say what they will do when they get stronger?
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BSbuster – “stupidity of western countries ruled by socialists”
you
Your diagnoses is extremely weak. The people destroying your country and Europe are Very Smart. Read “Tainted Source” – John Laughlan if your lucky to find it or “Der stille Putsch” by Jürgen Roth if you can find an english version.
Those Very Smart people are Talmudic socialists/communists. This is the case everywhere to a Much Greater extent in Western Europe and US of A than in Poland. So before you point on that Polish problem admit that they have much less influence here than elsewhere. This is why I used term :
“stupidity of western countries ruled by socialists”
Tusk and other PO traitors tried but so far they are unsuccessful.
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you
This is all if-ology, but to me it would have made more sense then to give Hitler the corridor he wanted AND wait him out while he attacked the Soviet Union. The French had no problem raising their hands Up and save their people and country. Why? Because they were smart. They knew that it was just a matter of time before the Germans would be wasted. You can not fight a war in all directions and expect to win.
Two things here;
Look at Polish pre WWII map. Then look at what “German Corridor” would do to Poland.
I tell you one thing. Giving “Coridor” to Hitler was equal to putting hangman’s nose on Polish neck.
I would be instant surrender but not in the name only.
Look at the 1939 map again. Then stop writing such nonsense.
Second;
There is a reason why Americans call French
“Frog eating surrender monkeys”
Tell me you disagree. Tell me how smart they were leaving to others to fight fascists while they were waiting. Looks like Czechoslovakian thing to me. First they collaborated with Hitler during occupation, then when Russians come they run trucks over civilian Germans. To “erase collaborator’s guilt”. Ask any Austrian what they think about Czechs…they hate them most as perverted, traitorous nation because they treated them well during the war.
Oh we Poles fought Hitler in ALL directions and WON. We fought them in Norway, Russia, Africa, England, France, Italy, you name it we fought them there. But most importantly we fought them on our own land. Polish resistance was one of the biggest in Europe, much bigger than in France and most likely bigger than in Yugoslavia. At the end of the war AK commanded about half a million partisans here. Then Russians came and murdered many of them. For ideological reasons. During and after the war. On our own land. Then you come and tell me we should love them. How ironic.
There is one more thing I must mention here. It was (I believe) Churchill who said
“Countries have no friends, countries have interests”
I assure you that this is well understood here. We are smart people, our average IQ (99) places us on the top of Europe and the world (8-ght ranking). Definitely by that measure we are smarter than average Russian or American and most of the Europe. Take it under consideration next time you hear “polish jokes” or think we are stupid.
Last one…
you
“For me this is dis-information (regarding Poland) or Friedman is smoking hash.”
Well it might be true that he smokes or it might be not. But one thing for sure this guy is well placed to know, this is why I mention his thesis. If you are “murican” you should know who he is. He is not “run off the mill” blogger, he is read in State Department and in many other “very important” places. But on totally realistic and logical point of view it makes sense. US needs strong Poland and weak Germany and Russia. They did it with Japan, Korea and China and they might do it with Poland. As I have previously said we have common, vital interests. The way west looks at us is of no consequence here. Koreans were goat herders before US made them economic superpower. We are much better positioned than they were. This is why it is possible. But time will tell.
Hope this will close the topic. My fingers are hurting bad :(
> Oh wait, do you mean all the marriages to royal courts in the West ?
What is there specific Polish in it ?
Russian Empire – almost all queens were from Germany.
This makes Russia perhaps more European than Poland, by this metric :-D
> we Poles have saved Europe from the invaders……. when we kicked up Bolshevik ass in 1920. If we lost,
This BS i already deconstructed above, by the way.
Poland in 1919 invaded three neighboring country, including Ukraine – and all it was “to save Europe from Bolsheviks” which were busy fighting internal civil war.
It really takes DoubleThink – willful and skillfully managed insanity – to repeat this nonsense.
OTOH, USA is every decade invading some small land, incapable to defend itself, and claims that their invasion was done to “save free world”. Poland and USA maybe is really “marriage made in heaven” ?
> Because the Germans never saw Poles (Slavs) as equals and continue to see the Poles (Slavs) as a more primitive culture than themselves. A lesson Poland has still not learned and I doubt Russians understand it either.
Funny, but seems being a universal human trait. Kind of “why good girls like bad boys”. If someone looks at you from-above, you might reflect it and jump out of you pants, to prove him your worthiness. And if someone else accepts you, then perhaps it is because he is inferior and you better distance form him. The animal “pecking order” instinct.
Perhaps it can be generalized to nations level too. Hitler’s Germany wanted to “be approved” by England. Wanted to be seen equal. But all it could gain was second-rate (but not third-rate! so – accomplishment) useful burglar.
Poles wanted to befriend German – and were frowned upon, which made them kiss up to Germany yet more.
Yes, Russian admiration to Europe is perhaps same pathology case.
This coin has another side, though. “We never treasure what we have until we crying over loosing it”
Many ossie today have nostalgy for GDR/FRG split time, as they are second-rate in the new Germany. But – no way back.
One woman blogged how she eveyr summer went to her childhood friend to Baden-Baden. And how she went to pools/saunas and waitresses snorted at her. Until one day she came there to see those medieval pools are all full with migrants. And suddenly the waitress was all love and frendliness, she tried to find last clean cabin for that Russian guest, and all that. But… it was the last time that woman spent summer there. He was accepted by now humble locals – but her personal medieval europe myth popped and she no more had any wish to go to that new migrants-fested Baden-Baden. It was just too late for friendliness.
Good example here Arioch with that Russian women in Baden-Baden. I myself recently tried to initiate discussion with some German people on vacation in Poland. My impression was that they were afraid to talk politics. And likely ashamed of what’s going on in their country. They were very uncomfortable discussing anything especially in company of other Germans. It reminded me the common German posture in GDR under Honecker rule.
In a sense I felt pity for them but at the same time I realised that we Poles are way more free than they are. There are few taboos you can’t openly talk about here. It will be censored but that’s about it. But anything else goes. At least in that measure we are better than Germans if anyone cares about supposed inferiority complex.
There is one more impression I’ve got from my observation of Germans in Poland. They really like to come here because they feel free from the pressures of living in their own country knowing that they are slowly losing it. I personally know many foreigners moving permanently to Poland. They like it here and many would never return to their own country. Just on my street where I live there are two Britons who bought houses here.Two streets away there is an american guy married to Polish woman They all confessed that Poland is perfect country to live with kids. Cities are safe, clean, shops well staffed, communication efficient and the only problem they have is huge bureaucracy. But hey, nothing is perfect.
Please refrain from your racist comments – which have been removed. Note the Saker moderation rules/policy. Mod
I can’t find the reason why everybody thinks we want to be “friends’ with Germans? If you talk politics it’s “politics”, we act friendly to Germans and they do the same the other way around. But only in reciprocal manner. Nothing special here. I would say that the most “German friendly” country in former eastern bloc is Czech republic. By far. But somehow nobody mentions that.
Anyway there is clear insinuation – that’s false in every way. Look how our politicians fight with Merkel. There is nothing “friendly” about it.
“/…/ in 50 years or less there will be three superpowers…Japan, Turkey and….guess who…Poland! There is a lot on it on you tube.You know why? Mostly by default (in Polish case) as it has all social/economic/political ingredients (plus potential huge economic support of English zone).”
Sounds promising! Judging by present trends, Gownopolska will be the “superpower” of exported commodified sex, toilet cleaning, and petty crime. Not much people left in Gownopolska proper. The “potential huge economic support of English zone” — is that NATO bases and CIA torture dungeons, perchance?
Nussiminen:
… in 50 years or less there will be three superpowers…Japan, Turkey and….guess who…Poland! …
BSbuster is quite hilarious, isn’t he? Above all there’s the profound trust in someone who’s trying to read the future in a crystal ball (Friedman). Then there’s the idea of being a superpower. I’m wondering if he’s dreaming of invading Germany and Russia, with tanks made in Germany and oil delivered by Russia.
Whilst Alex got deeply involved in contributing a well-balanced point of view, BSbuster honored his nick and busted Alex’ work. Everyone with a preoccupation against Poland got confirmed by BSbuster. Too sad for the reasonable Polish folks.
Hilarious indeed. As regards the superpower drivel, it doesn’t take much to figure out which country would be doing all the boasting, strutting, and silly provocations among Turkey, Japan, and Gownopolska. Shortest lived superpower in human history.
At one point this was to be my final comment here :-)
Lets outline in a few words how Christianity reached Poland and the Baltic States. In a few words it was by force. The rulers of these lands were basically told either you except Christianity for your People or you will be branded Terrorists. Ooops, it should be Pagan, giving us the Right to destroy you by the Forces of Good. This Force of Good were the Crusaders from the Christian Kingdoms (NATO today) in the West. This basic mechanism is best described by Bush Jr. – “Your either with us or against us.”. How this played out in Russia/Rus was much different and more peaceful. Most importantly it came from a different place. I would describe the two as Spiritual Church vs. Material Church. Shouldn’t be too hard to figure out which is which and Why :-)
“A dream of finally submitting the Orthodox Church to the Papacy (or, in its latest iteration, to “consecrate Russia to the immaculate heart of Mary“) “
Of those 7 points mentioned by you Saker, point number 5 has the biggest problem for me. Why? Because it identifies the Puppet but not the Puppet Master. Of the hundreds of Polish Puppets that I have met not one ever mentioned this “desire”. High and low of their society I never heard it. I am strongly suspect that Poles careless what religion Russia has. Besides, The Puppet doesn’t make any decisions as to its identity or its mission. The identity as well as his mission is given to him by the Puppet Master. Since your diagnosis refers to the nation, on this one I think your off base.
I am convinced however that the Poles have forgotten that they are Slavs. The way they behave gives me the impression that they think they are Anglos without being conscious of this. With more time they may even completely lose their sense of being Slavs (if they are not there already) as this identity construct is useless for a Super State such as EU.
So who is this Puppet Master about whom so little is said IMHO? Little is said because he is seen as being the Agent of Good thus needs implying little need to discuss it (sort of like USA). It is the Vatican.
Vatican is located and operates in Italy. That is the nerve center and in that nerve center Italian is spoken, not Polish. I don’t have have the stats but Italian names dominate in the top positions of the bureaucracy for centuries and for many long centuries also the Pope. This is where the orders come from. Top down Ruling House.
Thus the greatest threat to the identity and any hope of escape for the Slavic Poles (Humpty-Dumpty of the 123 yrs. of Partitions), especially members of the lower social class (mainly the ignorant), is the Vatican.
This agent is firmly rooted in the structures of the State and in the traditions of ordinary folk, for many centuries referred to as the ignorant peasants. This Agent rules the Souls (it intimidates these Souls every Sunday through the thousands of pulpits) of a considerable but currently diminishing population of Poles. This Foreign Agent is ruling over the Poles but they don’t see it and would not even dare to think this way.
In my opinion, it is the breaking of the Polish nation from the clutches of these Vatican Agents that is the crucial key to liberating them from the perpetual indoctrination that you are trying to outline. Stamping out or defeating the Agents of Material Power (your Anglo-Zionists, V-Column, Poles bought with “silver”) , as opposed to Spiritual, will not be enough because close observation of Vatican behavior through the centuries shows this Power Player to be very very clever and very very duplicitous. On the one hand convincing the followers of its Spiritual Mission on Earth while in parallel exploiting with their help and other Power Players the depths of this Material World. The Vatican Agents are the most dangerous Force out there because they hide in Plain Sight.
That’s why I stated in one of my comments that it is a blessing for Russia that the Roman Catholic Church did not get its tentacles firmly planted in Russia. If it had, Russia today would have King Size Problems as we see in Europe. The mighty Europe that supposedly had Christian values as it foundation. Yeh, tell that to Libyans or Syrian people.
Alex,
the last sentences in your comment above are:
“The mighty Europe that supposedly had Christian values as it foundation. Yeh, tell that to Libyans or Syrian people.”
I thought that with your erudition you would not conflate the Middle East problems with the Vatican. Have you not heard of the Yaalon plan? (I may mispronounce that name, forgive). That the annihilation of Syria is done by the “Europe with christian values” – that stretches it too much for me.
“Have you not heard of the Yaalon plan? ”
I am familiar with this. However destruction of Libya I understand along the lines of this article,
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2017/07/16/the-khazarian-bankster-cult-that-destroyed-libya/
+ Oil Business + the fact that Gaddafi started to give the impression that he was not on a chain (suggestion to use gold for oil transactions).
” Christian values as it foundation”
I know that my sarcasm is not coming through too clearly here. But that is what I was thinking of the EU and its average citizen, sarcasm. This picture is the quintessential joke on the People of Europe. The people in there (2004) are not Christians (IMHO) which in 2017 should be very obvious !!!!
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00582/news-graphics-2004-_582238a.jpg
NATA = EU +US bombs people to the Stone Age and does it with a smile. Then their media basically says “Welcome to the Democratic World”. Next the viewer is asked to forget what happen as the latest installment of “The Game of Thrones” is on. The Cycle is repeated with the next high value economic target agreed upon in their Bilderberg Group Meetings.
The Vatican involvement in all this is in the Churches. Here the Vatican agents work hard on the souls with soothing words from the pulpits “Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.”. The meek from France who were raping Africa or the meek Belgians working for King Leopold II in Congo.
God forbid the “sheep” were to be awakened by the priest as to the atrocities committed by their members in places like Iraq or Libya. The method used by the Church is “We don’t talk about that.”. You can physically enslave someone and still not have control over them (Chinese used indoctrination camps). But if you control their soul (what they think) you have full control of the person without the need for physical control.
> it is a blessing for Russia that the Roman Catholic Church did not get its tentacles firmly planted in Russia
From that POV the Megalion (Mongol) Hordes were blessing.
Catholics crashed Byzantium Christianity in Ireland, in Wends lands, in early Poland, in Byzantia itself.
“either faith should be exterminated or nation” as Catholic saint put it.
But in 13th century Russia had what German historics of medieval Russian Empire would claim Mongol Invasion and Mongol Yoke.
The Horde had its power over most eastern of Polish and GDL lands ( pole and lithuanian nobles paid vassal taxes to Horde for ruling there ) and even made incursions into Hungary AFAIR.
So catholicism suddenly found more technologically advanced military machine and stopped.
But Byzantium, Ireland, they did not have such neighbors as the Horde, both militarily strong and only caring about taxation not cultural/religious domination, nor Lebensraum for their sub-nobles. Bad luck.
“I am convinced however that the Poles have forgotten that they are Slavs. The way they behave gives me the impression that they think they are Anglos without being conscious of this. With more time they may even completely lose their sense of being Slavs (if they are not there already) as this identity construct is useless for a Super State such as EU.”
Psheks = World’s most underrated Latin Christians. Never getting the ecstatic approval and admiration they deserve in spite of their Russophobia, “European values”, and shining, absolutely spotless, history.
Apart from consenting to the creation of the Zionazi statelet in Palestine (through Molotov), this is the only thing I have to criticize Stalin for: It was very wrong to spoil the undeserving Psheks by giving them all that German territory. The ideal solution would have been to terminally partition “Poland” between the USSR, Czechoslovakia, and Germany.
Alex you try…
Christianity in Poland come for different reasons. In late to mid IX century there were quite frequent invasion of Slavic lands by German knights. That had nothing to do with Crusaders, it was simply an excuse to invade and rob> To put the stop to it Polish king Mieszko I decided to get baptizedand therefore become Christian King. This was done in 966 after which Otto the ?? had no choice had to recognize that Polish kingdom is Christian country. For the next 100 years there was quite good relationship with German Roman empie. Things started to change when one of the Polish Kings 200+ years later invited crusaders in order to “christen” pagan tribes in the north. That was the beginning of Prussia.
next
“I am convinced however that the Poles have forgotten that they are Slavs.”
You right at this point. But you miss one important thing. Tribalism is gone in my country so I believe that is the case down south in Czech and Slovak republics. Because in the end, what does it mean to be Slave? In short some assume its us-against – everybody else. That’s nonsense, that’s medieval! It’s fighting “religious” wars based on ethnicity. It’s sooo sooo yesterday. We define ourselves people of central Europe, that’s all. Maybe with addition of Christian beliefs and some patriotism/nationalism (aren’t those the same?)
Then there is an issue of “superstate”. I have to admit (with great disappointment) that indeed there are many that are pro_EU. But with qualifier….we want EU without many of EU rules. Just freedom of movement and freedom of goods exchange but all other things should be decided within our country. This causes frictions as EU (mostly German agents) do everything to destroy the image of independent Poland taking their own way as it could “infect” other countries. The expression of our independent thinking is Vyshegrad group consisting of Poland, Hungary, Czech and Slovak republics. In matters that count we stand together resisting Brussels influence. On another front I see another form of alliance, that is British, Polish, American one. This is mostly aimed at containing the rest of western Europe from getting too close to Russia. But in the end my hope is that this obnoxious entity called EU will fall apart with first whiff of economic crisis. I bet it will be “free for all” meaning that all countries would have to copy on it’s own with it. Maybe after that we will be able to create more just union where courtiers will be sovereign but economic exchange will be free from tariffs and people will be free to move around. But no common currency please!
The main fight as I see it is with globalist forces that aim to destroy any notion of independence, sovereignty, local culture and self identity. This is the fight we must win or we all will become slaves on our own land everywhere, in US and Europe. This is the fight I am willing to join forces with Putins’ Russia if, and only if, he really wants the same.
The well-mannered, clean and polite German soldier got some traction only in the Western front. That’s because they didn’t have to do much fighting at all, since the governments of continental Western Europe surrendered with great gusto, as far as I can see. The only resistance the Germans faced was by loosely organized partisans who took to the hills with their guns, mostly communists. When dealing with them, the Germans were not so polite. Otherwise they very much enjoyed life in supinely collaborative, spineless and whorish societies of Western Europe. German officers were known to weep apropiately with sublime emotion when attending concerts where the music of moving German composers was played. They were very refined when exercising their leisure.
Since WW2 happened overwhelmingly in the Eastern front, things were very very different there, and the polite German soldier did not exist in that front. The eastern front was a living hell for all involved. It was were 90% of the war occurred. Refined manners don’t last long in real war. Germans in that front were refined only in the level of monstrosity they showed themselves capable of, especially in Russia. They were particularly nasty in their forced retreat. No wonder the Russian soldiers were a bit pissed off by the time 1944 came around. They had managed to push the Germans back, but it had been very close. Russia had been very very close to disappearing as a nation at the hands of the Germans. Russians giving free rein to their rage after what they’d gone through at the hands of the well-mannered Germans, is not difficult to understand.
Nazism was defeated by the Soviets, mostly Russians. Americans of course have different ideas, which is not surprising after more than half a century of a cloying Hollywood diet. It was a series of energetic and heroic “Private Ryans” that saved the world from the nazis. What would you expect? But now I see that the Poles are not exempt from delusions of grandeur either. They are not to be outdone. They are among the smartest peoples in the world, they have stratospheric IQs and they thrashed the nazis everywhere they went. They must have their own very effective Hollywood or something. What a mess.
“But now I see that the Poles are not exempt from delusions of grandeur either. They are not to be outdone. They are among the smartest peoples in the world, they have stratospheric IQs and they thrashed the nazis everywhere they went.”
Again: Psheks = World’s most underrated Latin Christians, forever coming to the über-heroic rescue of Western civilization. On this basis, being likened to “greedy hyenas” by an irrefutable Westerner such as Winston Churchill becomes quite an embarrassment due to the fairly obvious corollary question:
Could it be that greedy hyenas are the very hallmark of Western civilization?
“No wonder the Russian soldiers were a bit pissed off by the time 1944 came around. ”
Red Army does not mean Russian Army in 1940. 33% of the Soviet Red Army was made-up of other nationalities.
Here is some data,
—————————————————————————————————————-
For the year 1940
Russians – 54.3%
Ukrainians – 21.2%
Byelorussians – 4.8%
Other – 19.7%
“It’s obvious in 1943 there were less Ukrainans, because that time(until 2nd half of 1943) the whole Ukraine was occupied”
—————————————————————————————————————-
“National composition from Krivosheev:
Numbers are averaged over three reports from 1 January of 1943, 1944 and 1945.
Russians – 66,4%
Ukrainians – 15,89%
Belorussians – 2,92%
Tatars – 2,17%
Jews – 1,64%
Kazakhs – 1,45%
Uzbek – 1,36%
Armenians – 0,97%
Georgians – 0,92%
Mordvins – 0,73%
Chuvash – 0,73%
Azerbaijan – 0,67%
Moldavians – 0,63%
Bashkirs – 0,37%
Kirghiz – 0,31%
Udmurts – 0,27%
Tadjiks – 0,26%
Turkmen – 0,25%
Estonians – 0,25%
Mari – 0,24%
Buryats – 0,15%
Komi – 0,13%
Latvians – 0,13%
Lithuanians – 0,13%
People of Dagestan – 0,13%
Ossetians – 0,12%
Poles – 0,12%
Karelians – 0,11%
Kalmyks – 0,046%
Kabardins and Balkarians – 0,039%
Greeks – 0,028%
Chechens and Ingush – 0,026%
Finns – 0,018%
Bulgarians – 0,013%
Czechs and Slovaks – 0,005%
Chinese – 0,005%
Yugoslavs – 0,001%
Other 0,39%
”
Even stupid Finns (0,018%) came with the Red Army as well as an unknown 0.39 % (probably Americans).
I think BSbuster needs to change its name to BSpreader or something along those lines. A tireless propagandist. It may be a case of sincere belief in one’s own bs, in which case the reason why Poles have been the persistent butt of jokes for such a long time may be easier to understand, perhaps there is an abnormally high percentage of BSpreader types over there (with apologies to normal Poles who I have no doubt are in the majority)
Or perhaps
I wanted to avoid saying this because my lamp did turned red when I read this,
“The expression of our independent thinking is Vyshegrad group consisting of Poland, Hungary, Czech and Slovak republics. In matters that count we stand together resisting Brussels influence.”
Ouch
“On another front I see another form of alliance, that is British, Polish, American one. This is mostly aimed at containing the rest of western Europe from getting too close to Russia. ”
I read this twice to make sure I got it right because to say that requires the person to be unable to draw conclusions from past history. In Poland’s case I think it is dead simple to reach the conclusion which would make it next to impossible to make the above statement with a straight face. :-(
I think he is sincere and convinced of what he says. To temper the criticism I will say that I have lots and lots of friends who think the same way about the Russia in the US. They are NOT Polish. Many are very sharp cookies but with such a weak grasp of history that at times they buttress their arguments based on Hollywood movies they saw !!!! In situations like that I think back to this tune and chill out,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94350gEguFI
Namaste :-)
Alex:
“On another front I see another form of alliance, that is British, Polish, American one. This is mostly aimed at containing the rest of western Europe from getting too close to Russia”
That sentence made me cringe, too. If they could move their patch of land somewhere else such an idea could make sense (if someone’s mind is stuck thinking of imperial eras).
In my opinion you can compare people like him to children who had been watching for too long the shop window of a candy store (all the admittedly nice toys of Western countries). Now that they gained access to the candy store they feel like it’s an all-you-can-eat event and don’t realize this will cause them severe belly ache in the future.
For a take on this issue from someone with a bit more experience and stature it might be useful to take a look at Zbigniew Brzezinski’s (a Pole, of course) later writings. Brzezinski saw the rise of China as the principal threat to the current international system based up to this point on US hegemony. His strategy is to form an alliance with Russia to offset this threat. Russia would eventually be admitted into the EU. He has mentioned that normalizing relations between Poland and Russia may be helpful in enabling this strategy.
Zbigniew Brzezinski is Rockefeller’s strategist and nothing else. Yes he was born in Poland but that is the end of it. Sort of like Heinz Alfred Kissinger who was born in Germany but that is it.
Zbigniew Brzezinski was (thank God) a member of Trilateral Commission,
“In his 1970 piece Between Two Ages: America’s Role in the Technetronic Era, Brzezinski argued that a coordinated policy among developed nations was necessary in order to counter global instability erupting from increasing economic inequality. Out of this thesis, Brzezinski co-founded the Trilateral Commission with David Rockefeller, serving as director from 1973 to 1976. The Trilateral Commission is a group of prominent political and business leaders and academics primarily from the United States, Western Europe and Japan. Its purpose was to strengthen relations among the three most industrially advanced regions of the capitalist world. In 1974, Brzezinski selected Georgia Governor Jimmy Carter as a member.[6]”
“purpose was to strengthen relations among the three”
I interpret this to mean “Strategize how to maneuver US policy so as to maximize Profit for Rockefeller’s and Company while Minimizing it for the locals.”. Job accomplished and in the process taking robbing the Middle Class in the US and expanding the Poorest Class. Their money was used to execute the policies devised by people such as Brzezinski.
Toward the end of his life Brzezinski started to publicly sing a different tune than when he was in his prime age. Then the goal was to destroy Soviet Union aka Russia. A job that failed to be accomplish for the Globalist by Napolean and in the process of the two WW. They nearly had all the “pieces” in places thanks to Gorbi and Yeltsin but …. (hell Again the “but”) then came Putin. The “joker” card that they did not expect to be played. They drained Russia in all imaginable ways of needed capital to rebuild and then went all the way to try and trip Putin with “Kursk”. Didn’t Work !!! Zbig started to run out of “Life Juice” and realized that his project will not work. So he started to sing a different tune but no one was listening any more.
“He also taught future Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, who, like Brzezinski’s widow Emily, is of Czech descent, and who he also mentored during her early years in Washington.[15] He also became a member of the Council on Foreign Relations in New York and joined the Bilderberg Group.[16]”
For those “tuned in” seeing that Brzezinski is associated with Madeleine Albright should ring alarm bells as to who we are dealing with. For this I send you to this book —> “Political Ponerology by Andrew M. Lobaczewski . Evil is Evil and their should be no niceties in calling someone Evil. Brzezinski is Evil as is Albright. By association are the people that they worked for.
Another “interesting” person of Polish birth who is related to those in the above text is
“Józef Hieronim Retinger (17 April 1888 – 12 June 1960) was a Polish political adviser. He was a founder of the European Movement that would lead to the establishment of the European Union[1] and was involved in founding the Bilderberg Group.”
Do you see why ? :-)
“In 1944, aged 56, Retinger parachuted into occupied Poland[2](pp16–22) with 2nd Lt. Tadeusz Chciuk-Celt, in Operation Salamander, to meet leading political figures and deliver money to the Polish underground. He survived an unsuccessful assassination attempt by the Home Army command who mistrusted his secret mission into Poland.[3]”
Now this little weasel at the age of 56 parachutes into Poland near Warsaw in April of 1944 Just Before the outbreak of the “Warsaw Uprising”. The uprising breaks out on 1 August 1944. If you parachute at age 56 in a war it must be for a very good reason. To this day it is unclear what exactly was his mission. Saying that he come to deliver money is idiotic and planning can be done by radio. However proximity of his appearance to the Uprising leads some to believe that he came inorder to press for the “controversial” uprising.
Now I put the brackets on “controversial” because there was to be No Uprising in Warsaw in 1944. Most Westerners will not be aware of this. Majority think “Off the Poles went with guns and bottles of gasoline to do battle to the last drop with Germans.” Well that is unadulterated BS.
At around April 1944 the Polish Home Army (AK) was pulling men and arms Out Of Warsaw !!! This was all being sent Eastward !!!! There was no intention to fight the Germans inside Warsaw as the Soviets were approaching the city. Some discussion of Uprising was discussed around mid-June but the commander Tadeusz Bór-Komorowski of the Polish Home Army had no intentions to do it. Then you suddenly have a radical reversal ,that so frequently happen in history (Crimea given Ukraine by Khrushchev), that later is explained in such logical wording that you can’t argue with them, “The decision was taken.”.
The decision was taken At The Last Moment by gen. Bór-Komorowski on 31 of July 1944. The Uprising started on 1 August !!! This was done knowing they did not have the arms and men to effectively fight the well armed Germans!!!! Why ?
What is known is that gen. Bór-Komorowski was put under heavy pressure by few officers in his general staff. A small group was relentlessly pressuring him day and night to give the order to move. They even went to the extreme by telling him LIES that the Soviets tanks were seen crossing Vistula River and entering the city suburbs !!!!! In the end he relented.
One theory as to why this all played out like this is because of Bildergerb-man (Retinger). Appearance of the 56 year old Bildergerb-man was necessary to prepare “select” people to work on gen. Bór-Komorowski. Bildergerb-man is suspect of being a British Agent at that time. This may be why there was an attempt to kill him !!! The Poles heard his “crazy suicide ideas” and rightly suspected that he is a traitor and must die.
“he advised the Prime Minister of the Polish Government in Exile, General Władysław Sikorski.”
Being the advisory to Prime Minister of the Polish Government Bildergerb-man could have used his clout to accomplish the Mission to have the “unwanted” Uprising happen. Find the right patsies, dangle money etc. in front of them and …. and you might succeed.
Bildergerb-man had such Good Luck that although he accompanied General Władysław Sikorski On All journeys he Missed One. The one that the general took to talk to Stalin and then get killed when his plane glided into the waters off Malta !!!!!! :-)
So the Summary Balance of Rewards for Good Deeds stands as:
General Władysław Sikorski and his daughter die in cold waters of the Atlantic. Bodies eventually moved to Poland. To this day many accident related documents are held by the UK under the designation Top Secret :-)
General Bór-Komorowski after the war works as an upholsterer in London and dies in 1966. Body later moved to Poland.
Bildergerb-man was so good that after the War was offered metals from various countries. Then to relax, Retinger initiated the Bilderberg conferences in 1954 and was their secretary until his death by lung cancer in 1960. He is buried in UK where he belongs.
Long thred, much info.
thanks for your work.
Can you point to what happened to the Kursk?
Answer to your question about Kursk is way down. I must have messed up :-)
BSbuster makes me remember the good old days lasting until the fall of 2013 when, sadly, Kim “LaRussophobe” Zigfeld’s PBS online asylum went belly up — it was a hilarious place, believe me!
What was especially amusing was a Polak writing under several pseudonyms such as ‘mccusa’, ‘Magnificent Poland’ and a few others. He/she/it had a Catholic Boarding School mis-education as proof positive of, ahem, “higher spiritual values”, manifest in overly clumsy English littered with swearwords and lively descriptions of Russian public toilets. I tried to flatter him/her/it by making clear that he/she/it seemed to be gifted with an intelligence well above the Polish average IQ that BSbuster was pontificating about.
As fitting for PBS folks, there was much “internal” dispute between them. Russophobia was their only “common cause” but that didn’t really make them like each other. I was further reminded of this when I looked at some other blogs as well. Poles, Ukrainians, and Lithuanians seem to have huge amounts of old grievances to settle; preferably violently, judging by the posts.
Here is a Master’s dissertation on the subject of Rus. There is much more in this work which for those not up to speed on what was going on in Eastern Europe way way beck I think this is required reading.
“Why Rus’ and not Russia: the term Ukraine (Україна) first appeared in 1187 as synonym for Rus’ (Русь) in its narrow sense. Originally, the term Ukraine was used in a geographical sense to refer to the lands on the periphery of Kyiv (Київ in Ukrainian, Киев in Russian). During the historical development it had substituted the term Rus’´ (after term Rossija – Россия started to be applied for Muscovite state from 18th century onwards) used earlier in its nucleus meaning for what is now Ukraine. This is generally agreed not only by Ukrainian but also by major Russian historians, Rybakov for instance, as I read. While the artificial term Rossija (Россия in Russian) had started to be applied for Moscovite state (Госсударство Московское) after the order of reformist tsar Peter the Great only from 18th century, as noted. Thus for objectiveness reasons, it is essential not to confuse the two. This crucial difference exists also in Russian language itself, where two different terms are used: term
“Rus’ – Русь” for old Kyivan Rus’´ state and “Rossija – Россия” for what we know as Russia today. The first of these (Rus’ – Русь) used for Kyivan state is not applied to modern Russia in Russian language at all. While in English, the terms got to be confused and very often are being translated and referred under one term “Russia”, mistakenly mixing two historical traditions ”
https://www.duo.uio.no/bitstream/handle/10852/26680/7245.pdf?sequence=2
Enjoy :-)
With the submarine Kursk it’s a crap shoot. Was it an accident or was it the US ? Here were are in the Land of Smoke and Mirrors, where the smoke changes colors and the mirrors are all distorted. Your question prompted me to look again at this subject as it has been some time since I spent any time researching it. And it is very good that you nudged me to do it because I found some gems along the way.
Kursk happened “underwater” thus it is not as simple as WT-7. Anyone with a little common sense and a good knowledge of science would understand that a high-rise building which is on fire will Not Collapse on its own footprint symmetrically. Probability of that must be some number like this 0.000000000000001.
The Kursk is different. Here anything is possible because we see nothing. There could have been an explosion inside. There could have been a collision. A US sub could have fired “something” at the Kursk. Take your pick. To analyze this incident I think one needs to know much much more than most of us here are capable of knowing. On top of that you need access to the right information. So honestly, for me that is not going to happen but lets not give up.
I once saw the documentary “Kursk: A Submarine In Troubled Waters” which seemed to make sense to me. The problem I had at the time was that I had no way to verify some of the things that were said in it. One such bit of information that had my ears perk up was that CIA Tenet came to Moscow shortly after the accident and had a meeting on the airport tarmac. After jumping around tens of websites I dropped into this one and found this interview. The relevant segment is provided. Apparently it did happen.
http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/153079.html
“– Some European leaders already lament that the USA effectively forced sanctions on them. Europe may break out of the “friendly” American embrace?
– Never. America holds her on several chains: the Federal Reserve printing press, the threat of color-coded revolutions and of the physical elimination of unwanted politicians.
– Are you exaggerating about the physical elimination part?
– Not at all. The Central Intelligence Agency of the USA is not even an intelligence service based on the level of the tasks set before it. The PGU KGB or the SVR of the RF are classical intelligence services: information gathering and reporting to the leadership of the country. In the CIA these traditional features of an intelligence service are at the end of the list of its problems. The main goals are: elimination, which included physical elimination, of the politicians and the organization of coups. And they do this in real time.
After the loss of the “Kursk” submarine, the CIA director George Tenet visited us. I was asked to meet him in the airport. Tenet was slow to exit the airplane, but the apparel was open so I could peek inside his “Hercules”. This was a flying headquarters, the operational computer center, which was full of equipment and communications systems that can track and model the situation in the whole world. The accompanying delegation — twenty people. As for us — we flew and fly regular flights, in 2-5 person teams. You can feel the difference, so to say.”
Read what SVR general Reshetnikov telling us Very Very carefully. This is a man who knows way way better than anyone on this website what the devil is going on in the World. In this one segment he tells us something about who controls who in Eastern Europe. It is not the “citizens” and their representatives in government. He tells us about Tenet. Bingo !!! And he tells us how “The Game is Played”. Viciously.
This was a lucky find :-) However, anyone observing what happens in the world for more than 30-40 yrs should be able to come to the same conclusion “if” they are paying attention.
Here is how I ended up finding the above link. Wanting to recommend the book ” The Intelligence Game” by James Rusbridger, I Used Uncle Google who took me to this link,
https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?4437-Police-find-body-in-bag-at-MI6-man-s-London-flat/page5
Read what happened to Rusbridger and Gareth Williams :-) That is the “Puzzle Palace” we amateurs are trying to understand. The world that these guys in part are shaping. I recommend reading the rest of of the discussion as it is good. Bouncing from one link to another I happened to find the link above with gen. Reshetnikov interview .
Looking around deep-politics-forum some more I noticed this name in the Che discussion,
“H J Dean. former member M-26-7 “.
The name sounded familiar which then led me to this forum where I sometimes drop in. Here is the “gem” I found, – http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23810-a-snapshot-with-che/
OK, it is completely off current topic but it speaks volumes to some aspects of the currently discussed Saker article, if you are a critical thinker. The subject is a Che Guevara documentary.
After watching it the documentary showed me , in a clever way, how a Secret Agent lies and will continue to lie until he dies. The guy is Felix Rodriguez. Watch and see how he does it and has spread his lie all over the world for 40 yrs !!! From 40:11 to 41:13 I believe you can see one of his lies in the way his eyes movement. I learned this from Derren Brown. Have fun :-)
Felix Rodriguez is Only in this photo because he was photo montage-ed into it. Note that his shadow goes onto his left arm. Che’s beard shadow goes forward.
https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/800/1*fdwKDXSFnqNyujPWJHkJAw.jpeg
This website’s , Education Forum, “controversial-issues-in-history” section has researchers/authors discussing issues in a rational way. Highly recommend it.
@ Alex on July 24, 2017 · at 2:32 pm UTC
Thanks for those links, especially the interview with General Reshetnikov: http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/153079.html
Alex:
Thank you for the interesting links. Right at the moment I’m watching the documentary “A snapshot with Che”. It adds even more to the confusion about the real truth. Maybe that’s the intent of the documentation. On one hand it’s appeasing to watch that former “enemies” can get friends, on the other hand you’re wondering what kind of games are being played behind the scenes.
Not sure how good is your English but I picked up a change of mind once Che’s old friend saw the interview with the helicopter pilot. When confronted with the helicopter’s testimonial I believe he realized that what Felix was telling him was a Lie. He says a 50:00 – 50:10 “My friendship with Felix was sincere and untainted. I only wish the same were true in reverse”. The man knows he was fooled by a CIA agent who was only interested in fame and in covering his BS. Maybe even in getting more information from him. Either way, Rodriguez’s story is way way too sweet.
Magnify the Che image and you will see the straight line where the splice was made. You do not get such straight lines in the real world.