First, a disclaimer: I am not a pilot nor an air traffic controller, and I never served with air defense units. I did spend some time with an airforce, but my role was one of electronic intercept analysis. So what follows are just the musings of an uninformed amateur. Caveat emptor.
What I will try to do here is present a possible scenario which takes into account the basic facts established so far. Here goes:
The plan was for the Ukies to shoot down the MH17 using a totally inappropriate aircraft: the Su-25, which is a “tree hugging” close air support aircraft. Why? After all, the Ukies do have some Mig-29s and even some Su-27, but these are much fewer in number and much easier to track. A few of them have been seen in the skies over Novorussia, but only rarely. In contrast, the Su-25 has been a ever-present presence in the skies ever since the conflict began. Some say that the Su-25 cannot fly over 7’000m. That is not true. The problem is that it’s cockpit is not pressurized, but the airframe itself has powerful engines which can bring the aircraft well over 10’000m. All the pilot would need is some good warm clothing and an oxygen mask. No, the big drawback of sending the Su-25 so high is that it’s engines are not designed to be used at that altitude and that it will not be able to fly fast enough to catch-up with a cruising Boeing. But what if the Su-25 carried a missile?
Turns out that the Su-25 can carry the R-60 air-to-air missile which can fly at over 3’000km per hour and thus easily catch up with a cruising airliner. So the Su-25+R-60 combination has a flight envelope which is sufficient to attack a Boeing.
There is something else that the Su-25 lacks to function has an interceptor: a radar. Well, this is not quite true, the Su-25 has a radar, but it is designed for navigation, not air-to-air combat. However, the R-60 missile does not need a radar, it has its own infrared homing warhead. So if the pilot of the Su-25 can point his aircraft in the general direction of a heat emitting target, and if that target is not too fast or too far away, the R-60 will be able to lock on to it and close in. The R-60 is a pretty small missile with a short range, under 8’000m, but it so happens that that Russian radar operators reported the Su-25 at about 3-5’000m from MH17.
Still, it is not easy to visually acquire the correct aircraft from the cockpit of a Su-25, then get within the correct range and then fire. There are clouds, sunlight, other aircraft. And the Su-25 has no air-to-air radar with a search and track mode. So what could the Ukies have done? Provided another radar?
In comes the 3 BukM1 transporter erector launcher and radar (TELAR) and the at least one early warning (long range) radar which all had just been moved in the day before MH17 was shot down, and then immediately withdrawn. The radars of each Buk TELAR and the long range early warning radar whose signal have been detected by the Russians could have easily guided the Su-25 to its target, either by a encrypted datalink or even by radio commands.
Combining all of the above, here is my totally primitive and possibly completely mistaken hypothesis:
The Ukies guided the Su-25 to MH17 by using the Buk radar capabilities. As soon as he was in reach, the SU-25 fire a R-60 missile which hit one of the two engines. At this point, the MH17 sharply turned to one side and lost altitude (the hit engine would lose power and its drag would sharply pull the Boeing to one side). The Su-25 then easily closed in and opened fire with his cannon, which has a range of 4’000m, shredding the cockpit and cabin with 30mm rounds. Had the pilot of the Su-25 failed to catch with MH17 or if the R-60 missile had failed, the Buks on the ground were ready to shoot, but they probably did not have to. Once MH17 was clearly destroyed, the pilot of the Su-25 could have easily landed anywhere in the Ukraine without drawing any attention.
This was a good plan, but it failed to take into account the sharp turn made by MH17 which instead of continuing on its path towards Russia turned around and fell into a contested by Resistance-controlled field.
One more thing: if my hypothesis is correct and the first impact on MH17 was from a rather small R-60 missile (3kg warhead) into an engine, the flight deck did probably not suffer an immediate and catastrophic depressurization. If so, the pilots would have had the time to report an explosion. This is why the recordings of the Kiev ATC were seized by the SBU and why the result of the analysis of the flight recorders takes so much time: the Empire needs to wipe away the recording of the pilots’ last words. Conversely, if MH17 had been destroyed by a BukM1 missile (70kg warhead) the depressurization would have been immediate and catastrophic. The problem with wiping the flight recorders is that if the pilots had the time to send a mayday then it would have been recorded not only by the USA and Russia, but by at least two more West European countries. Even if the latter would comply with the US orders, the Americans are probably terrified that the Russians have the recordings of the MH17’s mayday and they are probably trying to negotiate a deal with Russia. If not, they need to carefully prepare the public opinion by, for example, organizing careful leaks through the Dutch and Malaysian press to say that nothing was recorded in order to denounce any recording presented by Russia as a “fake”. All of this is, again, pure speculation on my part.
Ok, now please feel free to tear this hypothesis into shreds. These are just the musings of an amateur and most definitely not an expert opinion. I submit it only as a basis for discussion.
Kind regards,
The Saker
So if they sent out a mayday Russia would have the recording?
One thing that’s been troubling me greatly about the various given scenarios is the initial description of the bodies as being in a state of decay. This one item has tremendous global implications.
I have no idea how this might be independantly verified.
Saker said..
“the Americans are probably terrified that the Russians have the recordings of the MH17’s mayday and they are probably trying to negotiate a deal with Russia”
After the smearing of Putin & Russia, I don’t think the Americans can afford Russia’s “Price”
You account for many of the known facts, Saker, including the presence of the Buk missiles and the use of their radar but without them being fired.
But if the Ukies expected the airliner to continue into Russian airspace, then that would have given the Russians possession of the black boxes which would have been a problem for the US and the Ukies.
As it was, the Malaysians were conned into handing them over to the Dutch who handed them to the British as planned (without telling the Malaysians that beforehand, of course)
If the Russians did have a “Mayday” recording, shouldn’t they have released it by now?
LOL! Like deja vu all over again.
In a bar discussion 2 nights ago, I was challenged to tell my version of what happened. The “operational” part of the shoot-down was almost word-for-word the same as yours. I guess amateurs seldom differ :-)
I used the fact that the eyewitnesses on the now disappeared BBC video saw no exhaust column from a BUK, but that they did see fighter jet(s) and heard explosions. No exhaust column is the gating fact. It would have been clearly visible in a >20km radius. I imagine it would also make a lot of noise at Mach 4.
After some critiquing, the discussion veered away from Ukraine, but I like your scenarios of likely political developments.
Erebus
I think you’re close to the mark – especially concerning the “mayday” recording (if it exists). Very good chance that the truth will never be revealed, as the Russians may well use their knowledge to “bargain” with the Americans vis a vis a variety of issues, rather than make it public and squander a lovely opportunity for leverage. I’m not under any illusion that the Russian side is above and beyond using the Novorussians as a strategic chip in a much larger game, short term consequences be damned. Putin plays the long game, while the Americans are perhaps prisoners of their “instant gratification” culture. I don’t know much about anything, but I’m fairly sure that what we’re privy to in the MSM as well as the “alternative” is just the tip of an iceberg, and beneath the surface, channels of communication are open, offers and counter-offers are being made, and if a burial of the truth serves a longer term strategic interest, it will be buried indeed.
Might be very tricky in this case, as their are many non-State actors that are privy to the details. How to keep them silent?
Forgive me for saying it so bluntly but not for a moment have I cared about the details of how this particular instance of mass murder was carried out. From the begining I have thought or believed that all terrorism is manufactured by people who profit from it including our digressions into theories and details.
My comment is O/T but related to the community of people who traverse this blog.
I want to talk about something I call the Soul of the Saker blog. A recent post by a contributer who identified himself as a “Yugoslav” got me thinking about my own complicated backround and identity. While I am always encouraged by the knowledge, depth and talent that is evident in our virtual community, I am saddened that most of the resistance to Anglo-Zionist manipulations in Five Eyes nations seems to occur only here, online and almost nowhere else.
I want to encourage everyone, please let’s not forget how critically important this space is for the future of our fight. It is the kernel of the seed of our resistance to a ruthless oppressor and we should all strive to communicate in respect of this reality.
Full disclosure — I have avoided the subject before — I was born into the Yugoslav-Canadian diaspora, a first born son of two ethnic Croatians (cue the barking Chetnik), in a Montreal hospital called Jewish General. In subsequent years I have come to picture the souls of my dead ancestors chuckling to themselves as they presided over the birth of this newest addition to the family. Even when I cursed these real or imagined beings for the rootlessness of my inheritance — or insisted they were just a powerful creation of my imagination, they have been a constant presence in my life and one for which I am grateful. As a child I refered to them as the “blue lights” and many years later I was surprised when my sister, in her thirties and slightly drunk at the time, mentioned she had always believed she was accompanied by “blue lights” which made appearances at the critical junctures of her life.
Now, I’m not here to convince anyone of anything concerning the nature of our realty. I’m almost never sure of the reality of reality itself so in a very strange way, pinning these things down has always been both an obsession and something I felt ought to be avoided at all costs. I drag it out now on account of the effect that Saker blog has had on my own thinking. These are the ‘interesting times’ of which the Chinese (or is it Russian?) proverb speaks. Sometimes I feel like my whole life has been a preparation for this moment and it is critical I am heard. I get the feeling others who come here feel exactly the same.
Please stay with and bare me one more digression. I hope you’ll see it was worth it when I’m done. A few years back I saw a Ted Talk given by a British scientist that goes by the name of Rupert Sheldrake. I mistrust all well-known British intellectuals, especially if I come to know of them via an elite sponsered talk-fest like the Ted Talk francise but Sheldrake was an interesting speaker elaborating on a non-mainstream idea. He mentioned an experiment where a group of genetically identical rats were seperated into two groups. The first group of rats remained in the UK while the second were shipped to Australia. In the experiment, the UK rats (insert snide remark) were trained to perform a complicated task. It took roughly six weeks for the first group to complete their training and master the task. When the experiment was repeated several weeks later by different scientists in Australia, using the same methodology, the latter group of gentically identical rats, half-way around the world, took just three weeks to master the same complicated behaviour.
The implication being, according to Sheldrake, that we all partake in some kind of mass consciousness at the level of our species.
Love Rupert Sheldrake. Interesting man. Great scientist-philosopher. Friend/colleague/collaborator with Terrance McKenna. He calls his theory Morphic Resonance. That isn’t the subject so much in this presentation, from the Electric Universe 2013 conference, this is concerning tnt subject of his latest book, Science Set Free. Anyone with even a passing interest in science should watch this because there’s a real problem with how dogmatic science has become, and it’s really holding us back as a species. That and every other thing, anyway. From Thunderbolts Project YouTube channel. I hope people will check that out too. Amazing stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0waMBY3qEA4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRKvvxku5So
Part II
I don’t want to get into a long conversation about the possible errors made in construction of this experiment. Sheldrake was pointing to an interesting idea which bares consideration. Is it possible that all of us alive today are part of a greater consciousness that permits some of us learn from the mistakes of others we’ve never met? Do people who learn things the hard way, say those from former Yugoslavia, have something to teach the rest of us even if those events are completely out of space and time? I know people of faith often believe this is so with respect to their own religious experiences. From my own lifetime of experiences, including some remarkable coincidences and shockingingly meaningful syncronicities, I believe it is so. The self-identified “Yugoslav” reminded me of this possibility and how it applies to the current situation in Ukraine, Palestine and elsewhere.
I think that the Saker blog has a presence that goes well beyond our flickering screens. It is hard to quantify but I’ve seen evidence of this everywhere. We are having an effect and we change the conversation in meaningful ways all the time. When I first starting posting here I almost always came with the idea that I had an important message to relay. Now the experience is different as Saker or the commenters always seem to anticipate what I believe is an important or insightful observation that must be spoken. All of us, here together, are nurturing the ‘truth’ and helping to ensure the nightmare vision of the Anglo-Zionists is confronted — not just with ideas but also with our collective soul.
The Yugoslav, as a constructed identity, should not be mourned. He was the progenitor species of the globalist neo-liberal. Still today he is scratching his head wondering what went wrong. The only difference was that the Yugoslav revered Karl Marx or Tito instead of Adam Smith or Warren Buffett. Otherwise he was a dead ringer for the clueless urban Liberals I see floating around North American cities today. In Russia, he would be Medvedev’s biggest fan. In the run up to the Yugoslav Wars, he was running around telling anyone who would listen, that WE Yugoslavs were a unique people. WE Yougoslavs were too sophisticated and too aware of our own history to repeat the cycle of violence and genocide. Even when every peasant from every nationality in former Yugoslavia knew what was coming these folks desperately held onto the rhetoric of “Brotherhood and Unity.”
I grew up in that idealistic and basically wonderful social community of people who called themselves Yugoslavs first. We did this without denying our heritage or being ashamed of it. In my childhood home, every other night my mother would create some fantastic and elaborate meal for an unusual or remarkable dinner guest. One day it was a Slovene cartographer who would share our table while on the next it might be a Serb pathologist, a Macedonian philosopher or a Lutheran Slovak pianist from Voivodynya. Sometimes our family home felt like the United Nations as Canadians, Quebecois, Calabrians or a Mohawk Indian Chief would join us. For many of those gatherings, I can tell you, the whole of Montreal could hear our joyous conversations and rapturous laughter. As a kid I thought little of it but then when the Yugoslav wars errupted in the early 1990’s, I felt and experienced the loss with all my heart.
One day, early in the war, I learned that my grandmother’s house was being shelled by Serb artillery and that her neighbour, a half-Serb half-Croat woman in her sixties, had been blown into a million pieces. I don’t care what you know or you think you know about the history of former Yugoslavia but this was the reality that was presented to us. Suddenly my grandmother, whose husband was one of the FIFTY percent of Croats who initially rushed to join Tito in the fight against fascism during the first days of the World War 2, from Sisak in the Krajina, was an Ustachi pig who would be made to pay for the crimes of her ‘people.’
Part III
It is in a moment like this that you are forced to reassess everything you think you believe in. For myself and others of our friends, Croat, Serb or whatever, now was the time when we would be forced to choose, even as we swore up and down that we never would. Would we line up behind our fellow co-religionists or would we could try to remain blissfully neutral and hope it all went away. I think that the decision is always the same when the shooting finally starts: either you have a side or you don’t but if you foolishly believe you are with everyone then you’re going to be very lonely indeed. Perhaps if you are traitorous or treacherous scum this isn’t such a problem for you but it was a problem for all of us who thought it was ok to be proud of where you were from. Probably we could have sat out the war living in Canada but we didn’t. We sent mostly money and our Serb friends did exactly the same. Lonely and isolated in Canada was very different from lonely and isolated in a war zone in Croatia or Bosnia — especially when ‘Chetniks’ sorrounded your father’s village or home town and the shells began raining down. I hope that everyone here understands what this means with respect to their own situation and identity. Evil people will force you to choose and unless you do something now the day of decision will hit the majority of people the same way it did in Yugoslavia or Ukraine.
My message is this: I hope that everyone who comes here is capable of stretching their hearts and imaginations to include all of the good people. If it’s not about them (us) in the end it will end they same way it always does — with a victory for the tiniest minority of parasites which INCLUDES people like Milosevic, Tudjman and Izbegovic, to name just a few.
And yes, we — Croatians, were proud of our independence and the efforts of our people to defend themselves and liberate ourselves from the gangsters in Belgrade. It was only later that we discovered that our glorious leaders (also gangsters) had sold us to Berlin and Brussels even before the first shot was fired. Everyone in Croatia today can tell you what EU slavery is all about. It is only the despicable parasitical political class that will tell you it’s good.
Many people from all walks of life come to the Saker blog obstensibly to support the people of Novorussia and the Donbas but the majority of attention focuses not on Ukraine or Russia but on the concerns of the Anglosphere and the broader ‘West.’ Everywhere the good people — those who are conscious — are struggling to come to terms with the nature of our enemy and Saker has done as much as anyone I can think of to bring this along. While it is obvious, I have learned with some difficulty, that I don’t know a god-damned thing about the Russian soul (or why Russians don’t like Doestoevsky), it is equally obvious that plenty of Russians don’t know much about Croatians. I hope that everyone will work to remember this and be conscious that neither Croats, nor Ukrainians nor anyone other than the guilty people themselves are responsible for this mess. I will not bow my head for you nor will I cry out in respect of the unique nature of your brand of victimhood because I know how this story goes. I know my tradition and if I say I am with you then you should accept it and stop imagining you know something that you don’t.
Part IV
Let’s also thank the courageous people who have taken it upon themselves to fight the good fight against fascism and let’s not piss on their graves. I will remind you that in every instance up until today the people who fought fascism were betrayed; in Russia, Yugoslavia and Britain alike. How will you work to make sure it doesn’t happen AGAIN? I can promise you you won’t find the answer in Auschwitz or Jasenovac.
As for the Soul of the Saker blog, it is good to remember that our enemy is always cheered when we fall into the trap of making assumptions about things and people we know nothing about, especially when we need them to stand by our side. Our project must be universal (nothing wrong with that on its own) and we should always make an effort to understand that what we write, say or do is the only thing that matters.
According to Robert Parry, US Intelligence is starting to narrow in on the conclusion that the Ukranian army was responsible, and that they might have been trying to kill Putin:
“If the U.S. intelligence analysts are correct – that the rebels and Russia are likely not responsible – the chief remaining suspect would be the Ukrainian government, which does possess Buk anti-aircraft missiles and reportedly had two fighter jets in the vicinity of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 at the time of the shoot-down.
Some independent analyses of the initial evidence from the crash site suggest the jetliner may have been destroyed by an air-to-air attack, not by an anti-aircraft missile fired from the ground. Yet, the working hypothesis of the U.S. intelligence analysts is that a Ukrainian military Buk battery and the jetfighters may have been operating in collusion as they hunted what they thought was a Russian airliner, possibly even the plane carrying President Vladimir Putin on a return trip from South America, the source said.
…
The Los Angeles Times article on the briefing took note of the uncertainties: “U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [the Buk anti-aircraft missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.”
That reference to a possible “defector” may have been an attempt to reconcile the U.S. government’s narrative with the still-unreleased satellite imagery of the missile battery controlled by soldiers appearing to wear Ukrainian uniforms. But I’m now told that U.S. intelligence analysts have largely dismissed the “defector” possibility and are concentrating on the scenario of a willful Ukrainian shoot-down of the plane, albeit possibly not knowing its actual identity.”
They blame it on low level figures in the army and say the national government didn’t know, but that could be bullshit. If re-routing Flight 17 really WAS because of weather, it might explain the army’s mistake. They thought only Putin’s plane would be in the area. It’d also explain why they used an SU-25 instead of a MIG: diverting an interceptor to an area where there was no enemy air force would have drawn scrutiny from higher ups.
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/03/flight-17-shoot-down-scenario-shifts/
Saker
There is a couple of other things that have been reported on that you missed that may or may not affect your hypothesis. I have a slightly different idea of what might have happened taking those into account.
Carlos (the ATC) wrote that a couple of Ukrainian aircraft were near the airliner when it disappeared, but he didn’t say how near. My guess those aircraft were shadowing MH17 and perhaps passing the location data on to the Su-25 flying low down below the airliner. A MiG-29 or Su-27 could easily track an airliner from dozens of miles away. Maybe they told the Su-25 pilot when to “pop up” and run his attack?
The other thing is the attacking Su-25 “popped up” in front of, and probably somewhat below the airliner. That means the cockpit of the airliner could have been sprayed with shrapnel from an incoming R-60, or two, and or it could have been hit from the Su-25’s 30mm cannon. But at 3-4 km, an airliner cockpit is a rather small target to reliably hit with cannon.
It’s my guess the Su-25 was stationed so as to intercept MH17’s flight path and was being directed by the shadowing fighters, or ground control, or both. At the right moment, the Su-25 was instructed to gain altitude, so as to come up in front and below the airliner, and out of sight from the latter’s cockpit. Once in the firing position, the Su-25 fired 2 R-60 misiles, which exploded close enough to both an engine and the cockpit (these missiles are proximity fused). This killed the aircrew and damaged one of the engines, causing the aircraft to skew off course, while beginning to break up.
It depends on what is found to have damaged the airliner, shrapnel or cannon shells. So far I’ve only heard speculation, so I don’t think it’s been discovered yet. As the ZPC/NWO are no longer interested in seriously investigating the crash site, they obviously know what downed the airliner and that if that information reached the rest of the world, they would be busted for the crime.
I think if MH17’s pilots had time to get out a mayday, it would have been reported by somebody, especially by the Russians, since that would preempt monkey business with the cockpit recorder later.
вот так
I like everything there as good as any other good theory, except I wouldn’t put it past Russia to use the audio as leverage, if they have it. Good chance they thought they were trying to get Putin, although I still think it possible they shot it down on purpose to blame the rebels and Russia. The numerology aspect is pretty weird. Global Research published a piece on that, and the coincidences with other airline disasters of dubious nature are pretty astounding. And for me that only adds a little more suspicion, I really am not banking on that info as proof of anything.
The Malaysians are complicit in all the chicanery. They showed just how pathetic they were for four months of “search” for their other plane.
Most governments involved in this investigation are tools of the U.S. Netherlands, Australia, the Ukies, the Maylays, the OSCE clowns, all of them are tools. Just like the media covering them and reading the daily handouts.
What is already clear from the disparate reports on the ground is that the plane contains the truth in the large pieces. They have been photographed so even if the Ukies manage to shell the area, the necessary evidence is captured.
What is startling to me is that the Russians have not been seen at the location. Their group is waiting on Netherlands approval. That’s quite interesting.
The Russians have plenty of recordings of radars, electronics and air traffic, civilian and military, to knit together the “event”.
We also know that the Russians immediately sent in experts to the crash site in hours. So they must have recorded everything an investigation would need to reach a scientific analysis.
But it all does not matter. It can’t be blamed on the Russians or the militia. And it won’t be blamed on the Ukies until the war is over.
This investigation will be two years in the making.
What matters is winning the war and destroying Ukraine, Kiev and the entire destabilization project to cripple Russia’s development.
As another amateur, I would think that all twin engined planes are designed to fly adequately on one engine. With one engine on fire, I would think the pilot’s automatic reaction would be to head fro the nearest airstrip it could land on and request permission to land. It would also lose as much height as possible without endangering the plane’s ability to reach the airport. This would bring it within the operational height of the Su-25 in any case allowing for cannon fire to the cockpit.
If he nearest airport was within Ukrainian territory, then it is reasonable for the US to expect the airplane to do a 180 degree turn as it did and not proceed into Russian airspace.
So fellow amateur sleuths out there, where is the nearest airport to the where the airliner was attacked with the missile to its engine? In Russia or Ukraine?
@James,
Proposing a plausinle explaination to your observation “But if the Ukies expected the airliner to continue into Russian airspace, then that would have given the Russians possession of the black boxes which would have been a problem for the US and the Ukies.”
It may well have been to frame the story in such a way as to discredit any/all investigations and analysis by the RF that would be used to directly imply that the findings were rigged to cover their “crime”. This would have been a very easy “sell” to an already captive demographic that has been sold a steady flow of anti-Putin propaganda. We might call it framing the frame, or something to that effect. Just a thought to ponder…
Anon @ 04 August, 2014 04:14
Good point but I think the CIA would be more comfortable if they had possession of the black boxes from the start. See my subsequent comment @ 04:11
Where-Wolf,
Your comment nt may have hit the nail on the head. Those that have theblood of the First Nations flowing through their veins understand that “we” are the culmination all of the experiences of our ancesgors. Deep inside all of us that haven’t been assimilated, thus not infected by the contaminated anglo-zio bloodline, realize this wisdom and knowledge. It is quite difficult to traverse amongst them for this very reason and why they have systematically attempted to exterminate all clans and tribes for the past few centuries. Flashback to the War of 1812 and you’ll find the answers via the words and deeds of the Great Chief Tecumseh and his Confederacy. A true visionary that understood the enemy and that we all have a common bond. The divide and conquer strategy only works, if we allow it to do so. As long as we keep fighting the good fight there will be a time when the illegitimate species will become extinct, one way or another, as they have surpassed their best before date…
” Larchmonter445 said @ 04 August, 2014 04:04″
I can only add to this Saker readers, that I noticed on Twitter today (I am trying to read Tweets about Ukraine less, but still) that some pro-Kiev Twitter accounts were arguing that the rebels had shot up the cockpit after the crash to make it LOOK like 30 mike mike cannon fire from a Su-25. This is interesting and I would imagine ‘Russians tampered with the black box before separatists handed them over’ or ‘a Ukrainian unit went rogue under GRU control shot it down’ are both Empire propaganda talking points being prepared…just in case adverse evidence comes out. You never know, someone on the Dutch or Australian investigator teams COULD have a conscience attack. Even on the BBC World Service early Sunday morning as I was listening in the wee small hours Stateside, the elderly father of one of the Lockerbie bombing victims was talking about how that investigation’s results were tainted and manipulated.
My first thought was WOW someone at the BBC World Service perhaps was slipping a hint ‘between the lines’, or they simply didn’t anticipate what this elderly fellow would say about US/UK government manipulation of the Lockerbie crash site and it got through the usual editorial filters.
And that three parter by WereWolf about growing up Croat-Yugoslav in Canada was beautiful. I will try to abstain from the term ‘Ukies’ and simply pray more, regroup, recharge. It is not an accident I stopped posting here for a while. But it is good to be back and yes we must see things at the true level of battle above governments and NWO globalist oligarchs, at the level of ‘powers and principalities’. Satans’ minions have been busy in Ukraine as well as Gaza and Syria.
It is no accident that the ‘Azov Battalion’ not only uses the Wolfsangel runes of the 2nd SS Das Reich division, they also use Die Schwarz Sonne or Black Sun of the pre-WWI and WWII Theosophic cults that preceded and hailed the coming Third Reich.
From RT:
“….Preliminary examination of flight MH17’s cockpit voice recorder (CVR) revealed “nothing out of the ordinary,” a source close to the international investigation told the New Sunday Times.
The data refers to the UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch downloaded communications between the Malaysia Airlines’ pilot and an unspecified person with an air traffic controller (ATC), the publication reports.
“So far, from what the team has heard, there was nothing unusual. The last voice heard was not the pilot’s. No, there was no indication that the pilots saw or sensed anything off,” the source said.
MH17 disaster:Federal Air Transport Agency’s questions to Ukraine
Asked about the Ukrainian government’s Monday statement that the airliner was brought down by “a massive explosive decompression,” the source said such conclusions, so far have been “unconfirmed.”
The Dutch Safety Board (DSB), which is heading the investigation into the crash, was puzzled by statements coming from Kiev. According to DSB spokeswoman Sara Vernooij, the “premature” release of details of MH17 black boxes is “not in the best interest of the investigation.”
The publication points out it remains unclear if the team had secured the recordings from the Ukrainian air traffic controllers to match the conversations between the ATC staff and the MH17 flight crew.
…”
http://rt.com/news/177708-nato-exerting-pressure-mh17/
@James,
Point well taken. One thing that seems certain is that there are conflicting forces working within the seeEYEeh that may be counter productive to the “official” narrative. From some of our contacts and sources it would seem as if there are small rogue elements that are warring internally as well as with the enESeh. Their internal war is causing great friction as the battle to control the US Military Industrial Complex has entered a stage of multi-mission creep that seems to be setting the stage for something big Stateside as well as the other 4-Eyes. Maybe massive regime change or worse, misguided civil wars and the resulting chaos that would follow. Whomever wins the prize would determine the fate of whatever remains of humanity.
There is a lot of hoax going on trying to get people to believe this or that and to cast doubt so as to throw any semblance of truth.
But I got to wonder, What is up with the photo-shopping the extra window on MH17.. We already know Reuters doctors their news. Seen it with Iran (erasing israel from the map) and having their interview with the vostok militia commander to place blame on the cossacks as having a working buk missile system that came from Russia!
Malaysia is also on the cross hairs of the US and Israel, which condemned Israel as guilty of war crimes. Is also a muslin nation. Is also trying to negotiate with China on the South China sea demarcation problems. All of which means if they were not needed as leverage against china they would be ready for regime change and a lot of pressure is being put on them. The old PM was pretty bad in openly saying how things looked. And he still says a few words now and then. Not on very good terms with imperial ambitions or slaughter. But rather a pretty powerless nation among a whole bunch of them in the area. Exporting palm oil to russia in exchange for fighter jets.
We dont know all what is going on other the the Empire is going ape! We cant even get real news from Russian sources. They still mostly use MSM as a basis for their reporting which is always doctored or slanted. Everyone in the entire world uses it the same way hence it is only necessary to control the major outlets that agencies use as their sources.
As a layperson, I keep it with 2 hypotheses:
1) the resistance did it by mistake (the mainstream opinion) This would lead to a shared guilt by dome resistance fighters and the Ukie traffic control
2)A Ukie false flag
Suspicion goes more and more to Ukraine/ US false flag, as they hold back any data. Even if they come up with some data later, their credibility is questionable, since their track record.
The advantage is of not being framed as a conspiracy theorist.
————-
Same is true in many circles about 9-11. One can discuss this, but not use it as an argument in another topic.
Yellowstone vulcano predictions should also really be left to trained geologists.
It depends very much on audience. on forums I have seen people being framed and served off, the moment they go slighly controversial, off mainstream.
In western Europe nowadays this is even the case, the moment zionism is mentioned: an army of hasbara blowflies descends on you, and most of the time the comment is never placed.
This is becoming a real difficulty, and a severe restriction of free speech.
The RT approach works best: question everything, be truthful and respectable; correct the moment it is found out a mistake has been made.
The past week an incredible favor to Israel has been made by a small minority of wahabi sympathisants of ISIS, by their (slightly) provocative behavior in Gaza demonstrations.
It turned a large portion of Dutch people back pro Israel, and made the blowflies green of envy (but even more active).
Anonymous Where-Wolf – Respect to you.
Yes. The nature of ‘consciousness’ is quantum … and there are many millions of us reaching the ‘Hundredth Monkey’ mark against a miniscule malevolent minority.
I remember hearing of studies along the lines that 3% of a group will affect the next conscious 10% – and that threshold is enough to draw the unconscious masses to the 13% point of view.
Whatever the science may be – the (dis)information aspect of current warfare never more virulent, but equally, never more instantly disputable.
Another aspect I’m finding so much more powerful than time of e.g. Yugoslav war : Online translation capability. For the dominance of English speaking world has for too long left western targets voiceless, unheard, mis-translated / manpulated.
Where Wolf.
Very compelling thoughts. Thank you for that.
To the Saker:
Michael Bociurkiw is the Canadian lead of the OSCE team overseeing the MH17 site. In the following interview he makes an astounding admission to a CBC reporter. It occurs at shortly after 6 minutes into this video. http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-mh17-michael-bociurkiw-talks-about-being-first-at-the-crash-site-1.2721007
Thanks to syrianperspective.com for alerting us to this information, providing pictoral evidence and the following text:
“Bociurkiw (himself of Ukrainian descent) was one of the very first to visit the crash site and conduct an inspection of the wreckage. He has been at the site ever since. What Bociurkiw described in the interview flatly rejects the generally accepted version of Flight MH-17’s demise. When asked if he saw anything which suggested how Flight MH-17 was destroyed, Bociurkiw offered this startling revelation:
“There have (sic) been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked with almost looks like machine gun fire, very, very strong machine gun fire that has left these unique marks that we haven’t seen anywhere else. We have been asked, for example, have we seen any examples of missile. Well, no we haven’t. That’s the answer”.”
Read more at http://www.syrianperspective.com/2014/08/downing-of-malaysian-air-flight-mh-17-smoking-gun-not-a-missile.html#bkbBfrh1rYqOHYDL.99
P.S. given what some previous comments on earlier threads a week or so ago indicated about his background and expected bias, we should make an effort to commend him for his honesty.
Anonymous @03:56,
RT had a story on Putin’s plane quoting a source at Vnukovo-3 terminal, where Putin flys out of:
“Putin has only one jet – Board One, he does not fly other planes. This plane always takes off from Vnukovo-3, but the presidential plane have not been flying over Ukraine for a while”
http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/
———–
Regarding the bullet holes in cockpit, one analysis says that there are entry and exit impact holes of projectiles in the cockpit area indicating it was fired at from both sides.
See story here and click on photo in story for high res download:
http://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2014/shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/
Let’s KISS (keep it strait and simple)!
The point is that the head of the OSCE team that was the first to see the wreckage, Michael Bociurkiw, has declared explicitly in an interview with CBC News that the remains of the fuselage show traces of “very, very strong machine gun fire” and that the team could not see any “example of missile”.
The analysis of the German pilot based on the photo published on the Internet (disappeared)of a fragment of the cockpit gave the same sentence: machine gun fire. This is the primary evidence. All the rest is speculation.
Hi Werewolf
Your post about the breakup of Yugoslavia is very beautiful…And I like the title “Soul of the Saker”…many of the articles and websites for the truthseekers of the world is very atheistic and I like this place here because its not. There’s an element of freedom on this blogsite.
I think Austria also was like what you describe as the great understanding- ethnicity of humanity…. before the first WW..its only been since about the mid 1800’s that the human element of the middle class – is being wiped out.
Anon:
About the chance of Putin’s plane being MH317…I read an article last week that ruled that out completely because Putin’s plane was NOT flying through that corridor…it had changed flight plans. It was not flying that day through the same air space, so was not a potential target.
Larchmont :
I heard the Malaysian airlines is impeccable and above reproach….
Saker, readers,
Here’s another example of major MSM propaganda #FAIL:
Business Insider and Buzzfeed had run eagerly with the ‘scoop’ that a Russian soldier had been ‘caught’ by his own Instagram posts posting from INSIDE UKRAINIAN TERRITORY!
It’s no secret why the Kiev and NATO propagandists would push this talking point aggressively: they need an excuse for why the 79th and 72nd AirMobile brigades are about to surrender in the Southern Cauldron. It’s the same reason they blamed Russia for alleged direct GRAD fire at Ukrainian units on Ukrainian soil. They need to excuse this monumental military Charlie Foxtrot at the hands of the rebels by saying it wasn’t rebels, it was regular Russian army that destroyed the Southern Cauldron. Hence the sudden Instagram ‘scoop’ being pushed by — guess who? — the ‘unofficial’ NSA spokesman Naval War College Prof. John R. Schindler’s favorite press agents at Business Insider and Buzzfeed (the Daily Beast is probably more a CIA rather than NSA/DIA funded rag). The Business Insider reporter, Paul Szoldra, who pushed the ‘Russian soldier Instagrams from inside Ukraine’ story hard is a former Marine Corps officer and Iraq war veteran.
Now, the War is Boring blog has come out with a thorough debunking of Szoldra and Buzzfeed’s ‘scoop’, suggesting that there’s a much simpler explanation for why a Russian soldier’s Instagram pics were geotagged to Ukraine besides a soldier being stupid enough to violate OPSEC/COMSEC while not so covertly invading Ukraine:
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/2a959f92c23b
The soldier was Instagramming from a smartphone or Pad while INSIDE RUSSIAN TERRITORY WITHIN SITE OF A UKRAINIAN MTS CELLULAR TOWER!
Naturally, when I went to check on Szoldra’s story tonight it had been ‘updated’ and promoted in the Google rankings, but oddly enough, in the latest (but not older) versions of Szoldra’s story, commenting had apparently been disabled. Probably because the BI editors didn’t want angry commenters linking to the War is Boring debunking and making fun of BI and Szoldra. Here’s the older version with comments:
http://www.businessinsider.com/russian-soldiers-social-ukraine-2014-7
Saker, readers,
Here’s another example of major MSM propaganda #FAIL:
Business Insider and Buzzfeed had run eagerly with the ‘scoop’ that a Russian soldier had been ‘caught’ by his own Instagram posts posting from INSIDE UKRAINIAN TERRITORY!
It’s no secret why the Kiev and NATO propagandists would push this talking point aggressively: they need an excuse for why the 79th and 72nd AirMobile brigades are about to surrender in the Southern Cauldron. It’s the same reason they blamed Russia for alleged direct GRAD fire at Ukrainian units on Ukrainian soil. They need to excuse this monumental military Charlie Foxtrot at the hands of the rebels by saying it wasn’t rebels, it was regular Russian army that destroyed the Southern Cauldron. Hence the sudden Instagram ‘scoop’ being pushed by — guess who? — the ‘unofficial’ NSA spokesman Naval War College Prof. John R. Schindler’s favorite press agents at Business Insider and Buzzfeed (the Daily Beast is probably more a CIA rather than NSA/DIA funded rag). The Business Insider reporter, Paul Szoldra, who pushed the ‘Russian soldier Instagrams from inside Ukraine’ story hard is a former Marine Corps officer and Iraq war veteran.
Now, the War is Boring blog has come out with a thorough debunking of Szoldra and Buzzfeed’s ‘scoop’, suggesting that there’s a much simpler explanation for why a Russian soldier’s Instagram pics were geotagged to Ukraine besides a soldier being stupid enough to violate OPSEC/COMSEC while not so covertly invading Ukraine:
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/2a959f92c23b
The soldier was Instagramming from a smartphone or Pad while INSIDE RUSSIAN TERRITORY WITHIN SITE OF A UKRAINIAN MTS CELLULAR TOWER!
Naturally, when I went to check on Szoldra’s story tonight it had been ‘updated’ and promoted in the Google rankings, but oddly enough, in the latest (but not older) versions of Szoldra’s story, commenting had apparently been disabled. Probably because the BI editors didn’t want angry commenters linking to the War is Boring debunking and making fun of BI and Szoldra. Here’s the older version with comments:
http://www.businessinsider.com/russian-soldiers-social-ukraine-2014-7
This is directed primarily at Where-wolf, however for the sake of anyone who want’s to put this struggle into a higher context and make sense of what is happening in terms of the nature of reality i insist that you first read A book called My Big Toe by Thomas Campbell. It will provide an explanation for all the phenomenon mentioned by Where-Wolf and grant a basis by which one may develop themselves to make a large practical difference in this conflict. The book is available for free on Google books here.
http://books.google.ae/books?id=RYHtBPiZVgsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=my+big+toe+thomas+campbell&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_RzfU_zhL8rJ0QWs64DoAQ&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=my%20big%20toe%20thomas%20campbell&f=false
Again i urge all of you interested in making a direct and significant impact, outside of the blogosphere, to read this immediatly.
This is directed primarily at Where-wolf, however for the sake of anyone who want’s to put this struggle into a higher context and make sense of what is happening in terms of the nature of reality i insist that you first read A book called My Big Toe by Thomas Campbell. It will provide an explanation for all the phenomenon mentioned by Where-Wolf and grant a basis by which one may develop themselves to make a large practical difference in this conflict. The book is available for free on Google books here.
http://books.google.ae/books?id=RYHtBPiZVgsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=my+big+toe+thomas+campbell&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_RzfU_zhL8rJ0QWs64DoAQ&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=my%20big%20toe%20thomas%20campbell&f=false
Again i urge all of you interested in making a direct and significant impact, outside of the blogosphere, to read this immediatly.
I think that sakers reflections contain some interesting elements.
I myself have not yet come to a final conclusion other than that, of course, 99,9% certain it was the ukratine regime.
I can, however, introduce some possibly interesting factors:
– This was almost certainly a premeditated attack and not some right sector thugs gone wild. And it seems that relevant usa personel had arrived in kiev not too long before MH017.
Maybe the ukratinians are stupid and incapable but the us-americans are very well experienced in dirty jobs. They must have considered what could give them away as the guilty party and how to avoid that. So, for instance, a type of attack that would *not* allow the pilot the seconds needed to call Mayday.
– *Obviously* the Buk was a setup and an attempt to point fingers at Novorossija. It almost certainly wasn’t a Buk that killed MH017.
– The Militia had the black boxes almost certainly for a number of days. And they could strongly assume that the black boxes could – and probably would – be manipulated to point at them.
I’m strongly assuming that Russia had the black boxes and made copies.
This is no risk. They could always say that they did it because the situation at the crash site made them fear that evidence might be destroyed, possibly even without bad intent simply by artillery and that they wanted to be absolutely sure that the data were not lost to avoid further grieve for the families.
Why did they not yet show anything? Because they give the usa vassals a big fat opportunity to fake and tamper – and to be trapped. Moreover the mere possibility of Russia having copies might “help” the western inspectors to stay honest.
– The 30 mm cannon version of the story is highly doubtful. Those cannons are not for that kind of job in the Su-25 and it would be very, very difficult to train them on a small target 3 km away.
That version might, however, be attractive as a worst case fall-back for ukratine saying “the Militia has anti-air cannons! And that’s how they did it”. Of course that’s highly irrational but then, being rational isn’t an attribute one would think of with the ukratine thugs.
– The Putin version is, Pardon me, utter crap in my minds eyes. For one Putin has not even been flying over ukratine. Moreover his pilot wouldn’t care batshit for ukratine ATC commands. And he needn’t to; playing games like, say forcing Putin airplane on a certain course, would be a highly suicidal act. And btw. it’s not even in ukratine’s interest because if, just assume for a second, Putins airplane would be downed, someone like Rogosin would act intermediately and you bet that Russia’s military would completely destroy and annihilate ukratine and, being at that, poland, too.
After killing Putin, not even the usa could be secure anymore. ANYthing could happen.
– “Nothing uncommon so far” (on the voice recorder) is almost certainly a fat lie. Because when a missile hits your airplane there’s LOTS of noise.
In other words: ukratine did it and usa/cia was involved and they want to play it à la “Strange thing! We just can’t seem to find how MH017 crashed” …
Funny, funny, if Russia had another version of the voice recording … Haha
Also this, from a fanatically pro-Kiev anti-Russia source:
Did Strelkov’s Men Really Execute 14 People in Slovyiansk?
http://3dblogger.typepad.com/minding_russia/2014/08/did-col-strelkov-really-execute-people-in-the-donetsk-peoples-republic.html
@ 04 August, 2014 05:02
Yes, there’s undoubtedly infighting inside the US ‘Intelligence Community’ and the traditional clashing between the State Department and (War) Department of Defense, who ironically seem to have switched their historic roles with the fanatical neocons like Nuland and Pyatt pushing escalation while some in the Pentagon just might be looking for an ‘off ramp’.
Remember while State’s access is limited at to the upper echelons who will can mostly be counted on to keep their mouths shut, DoD has a history of leakage both pre-and-post August 2013 Syria standown. It’s the DIA and NSA (and CIA to a lesser extent without the direct translated SIGINT intercepts) who have access to intel revealing the Ukies literally burying their major casualties in the East. For damn sure the mid to upper echelons of the NSA/DIA and their Russian language specialists are privy to all of the screaming phone calls home from encircled Ukie soldiers to their mothers and the Kiev-censored TV stations.
The now-neocon/neolib led State Dept. can pretend this stuff along with the Ukrainian army’s FUBAR’d situation on the Russian border in Lugansk oblast don’t exist. But the upper to mid-level intel brass in DIA and NSA cannot pretend the US is sending military advisors to Ukraine because victory is imminent.
At the very least, there has to be some nervousness about whether Kiev and the rest of Banderastan will see serious unrest and anti-draft riots. The beat down of Right Sector teenage thugs by Odessa cops may have been delayed payback for Odessa — at the very least there have to be a few cops who are ashamed their colleagues did nothing as 50+ ‘Colorado beetles’ were shot, stabbed and beaten to death inside the Trade Unions Building. A few Odessa cops, if not necessarily representative of the police force as a whole, probably decided to teach the Pravy Sektor Nazi larvae a lesson they wouldn’t forget at that night club this weekend.
I agree with the ideas of air-to-air missile attack combined with cannon fire to the cockpit as the most likely scenario so far. But my tinfoil hat is still wedged firmly in place, so I have to keep asking about the two independent reports of badly decomposed bodies when the plane wreckage had barely hit the ground. The answer to that question has a huge bearing in my opinion on whether it was an accident, an intentional false-flag attack, or a monstrous hoax.
Speaking of hoaxes, which seem to be associated with exercises a lot these days, Operation Rapid Trident was omitted from the flurry of coverage on the shoot-down MH-17.
From the U.S. Army in Europe website:
http://www.eur.army.mil/RapidTrident/
“Rapid Trident supports interoperability among Ukraine, the United States, NATO and Partnership for Peace member nations. The exercise helps prepare participants to operate successfully in a joint, multinational, integrated environment with host-nation support from civil and governmental agencies. Rapid Trident is a part of U.S. European Command’s Joint Training and Exercise Program, designed to enhance joint combined interoperability with allied and partner nations. The exercise also supports Ukraine’s Annual National Program to achieve interoperability with NATO and commitments made in the annual NATO-Ukraine work plan.
Rapid Trident included a full range of military exercises. In addition to U.S. troops in Germany and Italy, the exercise included units from Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Canada, Georgia, Germany, Moldova, Poland, Romania, the United Kingdom and Ukraine.”
Rapid Trident was going on at the same time as the MH17 shootdown, and could explain some potential radar and navigation monkey business.
The repulsive dwarf Rasmussin is spinning more говно. Sounds like the false flaggers are getting worried now that their nazi puppets failed to take over the crash scene.
Россия: Генсек НАТО оказывает давление на следствие по катастрофе Boeing (Russia: NATO Secretary General is putting pressure on the investigation of the disaster Boeing)
http://www.vz.ru/news/2014/8/4/698627.html (trans) http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.ru/www.vz.ru/news/2014/8/4/698627.html
“NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen has decided to put pressure on the investigation of the crash of the Boeing 777 in the Donetsk region, according to the mission of Russia to the Alliance.
“The Secretary General, NATO decided not to wait for the completion of the investigation on MH17 and to exert pressure on him,” – said in a statement posted in the microblog mission of Russia to NATO in Twitter.
Earlier, the head of Russia’s state Duma Committee on international Affairs Alexei Pushkov said that if NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen had reliable evidence that militias allegedly guilty of the crash Malaysian liner over Ukraine, he would have brought them.
Rasmussen in his interview to the French edition Midi Libre stated that provides many detailsthat point to the guilt of the militias in the collapse of the liner. The representative of the Alliance did not specify RIA Novosti, the exact data about wine militias has NATO, saying that “we do not comment on intelligence”…
вот так
I agree with the ideas of air-to-air missile attack combined with cannon fire to the cockpit as the most likely scenario so far. But my tinfoil hat is still wedged firmly in place, so I have to keep asking about the two independent reports of badly decomposed bodies when the plane wreckage had barely hit the ground. The answer to that question has a huge bearing in my opinion on whether it was an accident, an intentional false-flag attack, or a monstrous hoax.
Speaking of hoaxes, which seem to be associated with exercises a lot these days, Operation Rapid Trident was omitted from the flurry of coverage on the shoot-down MH-17.
From the U.S. Army in Europe website:
http://www.eur.army.mil/RapidTrident/
“Rapid Trident supports interoperability among Ukraine, the United States, NATO and Partnership for Peace member nations. The exercise helps prepare participants to operate successfully in a joint, multinational, integrated environment with host-nation support from civil and governmental agencies. Rapid Trident is a part of U.S. European Command’s Joint Training and Exercise Program, designed to enhance joint combined interoperability with allied and partner nations. The exercise also supports Ukraine’s Annual National Program to achieve interoperability with NATO and commitments made in the annual NATO-Ukraine work plan.
Rapid Trident included a full range of military exercises. In addition to U.S. troops in Germany and Italy, the exercise included units from Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Canada, Georgia, Germany, Moldova, Poland, Romania, the United Kingdom and Ukraine.”
Rapid Trident was going on at the same time as the MH17 shootdown, and could explain some potential radar and navigation monkey business.
WizOz said…04 August, 2014 05:43
“The point is that the head of the OSCE team that was the first to see the wreckage, Michael Bociurkiw, has declared explicitly in an interview with CBC News that the remains of the fuselage show traces of “very, very strong machine gun fire” and that the team could not see any “example of missile”.
The analysis of the German pilot based on the photo published on the Internet (disappeared)of a fragment of the cockpit gave the same sentence: machine gun fire. This is the primary evidence. All the rest is speculation.”
Check out these photos and what is said about them:
http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/List_of_MH17_airframe_parts
Without being an expert of projectile damage, I cant say what caused the damage.
вот так
It seems the R-60 can also be fitted with two types of proximity fuse, one optical and one radar. The pilot would know the exact configuration and thus how to appropriately target the missile.
However, if the IR seeker version of the R-60 were used, wouldn’t the expected outcome be that only one of the two engines on the 777 would be hit, causing the aircraft to veer violently off course and begin descending rapidly?
In other words, if the Ukie pilot hit MH17 with this model of the R-60, wouldn’t it be safe for him to expect that the plane would sharply deviate from its original heading toward Russia and come down somewhere in the Eastern Ukraine?
It also makes sense that the pilot would have been prepared to close in and use machine gun fire to finish off the cockpit crew, as they could have survived a missile strike against one of the 777 engines, and might otherwise have more of a chance to report details to ATC.
Saker, I mostly find your hypothesis quite reasonable. But here are some things to ponder:
— If the MH17 pilots put out a distress call, wouldn’t “Carlos” have heard it? Since Carlos said nothing about a distress call, I’m going to assume there was none.
— I’m not a pilot, but I am a rifleman of sorts, and it would be darned hard to hit a 777 cockpit with scoped rifle at 3 – 5 km, never mind using a SU-25 where I presume aiming consists merely of pointing the plane at the target and hoping for the best? More likely the SU-25 would have had to approach within a few hundred yards to hit the 777 with its cannon.
— perhaps the SU-25 did approach the wounded 777 close enough for accurate cannon fire, but the Russians said the SU-25 came within 3 – 5 km. Is there more to the story that the Russians haven’t told us?
— in general, the Russian PR strategy seems to be “wait for the West to tell a lie, and then release just enough evidence to debunk their lie.”
Spot on. Exactly what I said to someone a week ago. What clued me in was one of the first Novorossiya men on sight stated the cockpit remains were covered with blood, other areas of the fuselage were not.
There was no mayday because the moment the Su jockey fired the missile he hosed the cockpit with 30 mike mike, twice from the looks of it. His MG’s are very accurate from a goodly distance. It is possible there was no missile fired, just the tank killer 30 mike mike did the job.
Good work, Saker.
Some commenters were puzzled by the part about continuing into Russian airspace. What I took that to mean is that the airliner was meant to crash in the southern pocket where the Ukrainian army was trapped. This is the thesis of Zhilin and/or Haisenko. If that had worked, it could have been used to relieve their troops there, who would also retrieve the black boxes.
It’s still a bit odd they didn’t use a Buk to shoot it down to start with since they made all the effort to set up the charade with the Buk in Torez. Perhaps the concern was with wreckage of the missile being found in rebel-held area and identified – that could be why this offensive to secure the crash area. Haisenko thinks they used the Su 25 first and after that was botched, a SA 11 to deliver the coup de grace.
I’ve been working on similar lines to your hypothesis here http://progressivepress.com/blog-entry/dirty-war-ukraine .
The extreme range of an R60 missile is 12 miles..they are “garuanteed” to strike their targets inside 6 miles… From Russian milltiary signals data one Su25 appeared to climb sharply toward the 777 before turned sharply (because one engine failed)…Probably, the pilot of the Su25 fired 2 missiles, one hit the engine another hut the cockpit area (or the second Su25 launched withing a second or two of the first aircraft…REMEBER THE Su 25 CLIMBED STEEPLY TOWARD THE 777 FROM UNDERNEATH (PROBABLY TO TARGET AND FIRE) !!! HE WOULD NOT HAVE HAD TO BE AT THE SAME ALTITUDE !!!!
The Buk missile hype is irrelevant..if the Su25’s were equipped with R60 systems they wouldn’t need any ground radar to “track” the target
I have a question for our Dutch readers: Where are the outraged relatives of the MH-17 victims?
It has been already more than two weeks and the initial narrative has been disproven. So why is none of the relatives demanding the release of the air traffic controller and radar data that the SBU confiscated?
After MH-370 was lost 4 months ago, the relatives of the victims were the ones questioning the initial explanation of a crash shortly after launch. Only through the constant pressure of the relatives we found out that MH-370 continued flying for hours.
I am missing this with MH-17, but maybe I am not aware of the Dutch media coverage. What I have seen in statements from relatives so far seem all to support the official narrative.
Mike Tyson used to say that everybody has a plan until they get hit. The US alliance will remain ascendant so long as all Russia does is try to roll with the punches; reacting to wave after wave of assaults in the hope that an opportunity will present itself to turn the tables (e.g. Crimea) or that good sense will prevail. (Not going to happen!!). Its impossible to prevail against a strong opponent if all you do is stay backed in a corner. If you don’t find ways to put him on the defensive you can never seize the initiative.
@MJ 5:36
That story cites conflicting information from different anonymous sources. Has there been a definitive acknowledgement or denial of Putin flying over East Ukraine from any official sources?
Either way, I think it’s pretty clear by now that the Ukranian Army is the chief suspect here. If Parry’s source is right it seems like the intelligence services realize that too. Hopefully they’ll be able to talk Obama off a cliff like they did in Syria. He’s put a lot more of his reputation at stake then he did then, though, which makes me worried.
Important philosophy from Mr. Where-Wolf. Thank you – immensely moving. and perceptive.
For my part – I wonder about my g’g’g’… grandmother in Africa as the anthropologists say where most of humanity evolved … eh – other hominid species branched into, and then branched out again … What would g’g’g’ … grandmother have to say? or might have thought about all her descendants??. I can’t seem to connect with any ancestors, except in a theoretical sort of way.
But I do know, based on history, that I have relatives – albeit distant ones – in Turkey (slave raiding was a HUGE business), Crimea (Kaffa) was great slave marketplace once upon a time, and guess who helped run it?), and these captured people were sold all over, some to Egypt.
*****************
As for Michael Bociurkiw and his comments about the crash site, the plane, etc. – I LISTEN to tones of voice. I think I detect , from what I heard of him on RT – that he is not happy, but very careful and precise in what he says.
I wonder how long he will last in the job …
— Medea
I have a question for our Dutch readers: Where are the outraged relatives of the victims of flight MH-17?
It has been more than two weeks now and the official story has been falling apart. But I’m missing any notion that the relatives push for an investigation. That seems to be strange. All comments from relatives so far seemed to support the initial accusations.
When flight MH-370 went missing months ago, the relatives questioned the official story. That lead to the revelation that MH-370 continued flying for hours after the contact was lost.
Maybe I’m missing something, but shouldn’t there be Dutch relatives questioning the course of their government? Asking for the release of the ATC tapes and the radar data that the SBU confiscated?
One additional factor:
The Su-25 pilot was brought in specially for the task, (possibly a Polish mercenary pilot with CIA experience?). He comes in for the hit with a false identity, and disappears with a new identity immediately afterwards.
A Russian military spokesman has stated that a Buk rocket exhaust would be visible from 20-25 km away and the targeting mechanism is designed such that the warhead explodes when the missile is above the target. The warhead fragments into cubes which would then shower down from above the target.
One thing is absolutely clear. The plane was shot down by Buk.
You are mimicing the opponents methods and inciting others to do likewise.
As a self confessed amateur your practices may hinder publication of professional findings as well as placing others at hazard.
I suggest we all wait until a professional investigation is completed and the findings published.
Caveat emptor is not usually cited in criminal matters but in civil matters.
It may have some significance that a blog from the US uses the notion of buying.
It does seem like whatever missile it was hit the cockpit (the damage seems particularly heavy there, though obviously we don’t have a full picture of it yet.) Would this make sense for a heat-seeking missile?
Where-Wolf … we are with you !!!! … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiHAJQsK5Rs
explain the cocpit riddled with bullets and another two or three parts riddled with bullets.
the bullets imply, that the attacking plane was at a distance of several hundert meters….
Where-Wolf,
This Anglo-Saxon (me) read every word and appreciated hearing something written from “inside”.
The official US-version how MH17 went down has been proven conspiracy think without any solid evidence. It is therefore very appropriate to construct all kids of hypothesis that fit the facts better. As new data and facts emerge, the various hypotheses can be fine tuned or dismissed and replaced by a better reconstruction.
Saker’s ‘wild guess’ fits perfectly in my analysis of July 30th, posted by Pepe Escobar on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/pepe.escobar.77377/posts/10152586069621678
Specific issues:
– More than one attack spot possible
– More than one weapon used possible
– Explanation why Kupol radar (BUK) was switched on by Kiev forces (according to Russian MinDef)
– BBC’s deleted repo with eye witness account
1.Could the plane made a U turn after a hit with a Buk ?
2.When the SU 25 plane has a lower speed than the MH17 , than it had to attack from the front ? So when it attacks from the back it has to use the missles and that results in giving the crew the option to send a mayday because the small missle can´t destroy the aircraft on point. Makes it a bad strategy for a false flag operation.
3. Does the U-tern mean that the cocbit was intact, I mean was that a controlled U turn ?
4. Why are there so much wrecks on a wide areal ? That means that MH 17 didn´t come down in one piece –> that means it was destroyed in the air –> are the cannons and the small rockets strong enough to destroy the Boring in many pieces in the air ? May thought on this : The rocket is not enaough to destroy MH 17 , the rocket aims for the jet engine and the plane hull remains intact. The canon of the SU 25 can kill tanks so it maybe could be strong enough to destroy the plane in the air maybe trigger a explosion with the fuel of the plane.
I think what is happening now is the ‘reorganization’ of the army of the state formation known as Ukraine. Mass desertions, defections, results of infiltration, growing recognition that a partition is inevitable, anti-war sentiment, agendas of various oligarchs . . . the faction running the government does not have popular support, even among the death squads. The US and NATO can’t overcome these internal contradictions. Army equipment will be destroyed or transferred to NAF, resistance will grow. Only missing ingredient is political support for Novorussia, from Russia and/or otherwise.
@Where-Wolf
Compelling story indeed, but a few questions arise.
How did you come to the “fifty percent” conclusion, as I understand Croatians only reached fifty percent and over in ethnic composition of partisans in Croatia mid-late 1943. This happened after the capitulation of Italy (a main weapons supplier to Croatian home guard allied to fascist Italy and Germany) and the battle of Stalingrad(a turning point of WW2)?
Sad to hear about your grandmother, I have no doubt this was in reprisal to the mass sackings, the daily murders and ethnic cleansing in majority Croatian cities such as Zagreb (prior to formal hostilities) and off course a constitution being announced and designed to eliminate Serbians from their previous status as constituent people (a trade off Tito gave not to have formal Serbian autonomy in Croatia).
These facts without their omission presented might have molded your thoughts differently. Just a different type of victim hood as you say, but closer to the universal stance you desire.
The gangsters in Belgrade? Croatia as a nation owes a debt of gratitude to those “gangsters” and gangsters. Firstly, at the time of Yugoslavia’s demise, I see most of the leadership in the highest positions was Croatian, ie Markovic (prime minister) and Stipe “we won WW2 twice, we need not apologize” Mesic(president).
Belgrade “gangsters” after WW1 chose to free all southern Slavs it could into a united Yugoslavia not just lands promised to Serbia after WW1.
It was Tito(a Croat & Slovene) and his gangsters that chose to move established factories in Serbia to Croatia and Slovenia and to feed those industries with subsidized minerals, primary products and resources(war reparations etc)from Serbia.
There is a lot to include, but similarities arise in Ukraine as with Yugoslavia before it. Crimea and many other concessions were given to Ukraine under the same theme (unity), it was gladly taken then. The Russians had too and did quickly and rightfully correct that mistake.
The Serbs fought on the land they populated and bled on for centuries, same as the Novorussians, the “Chetniks” seem to be fighting for the Novorussians. On the flip side of the coin, Croatia’s national hero Ante Gotovina leader of the ethnic cleansing of Serbs has vowed to accept the call of friendship from the Junta to fight of the “Russian Yoke”.
There are too many eery similarities to mention, and a tough choice for some.
My impression on your thoughts are they are as interesting and compelling as they are confusing and contradictory.
It seems you are confronted with the same choices as you described in the 90’s.
From a barking Chetnik, hopefully on cue.
Rubbish.
There was more than one airliner in the vicinity.
There were Ukrainian SU27s up there which were in cannon range of MH17.
Why are you guys pushing this thing about the SU24? Were Russian fighters up in the area too?
We also know that the Russians immediately sent in experts to the crash site in hours. So they must have recorded everything an investigation would need to reach a scientific analysis.–
I’m guessing Russia has already recorded the black box, which is why they were OK with letting it go.
I don’t buy your theory. It is possible, but unlikely. Much more likely is that it was shot down by the rebels accidentally. My guess is that the Ukrainian fighter may have been the initial intended target, but somehow avoided the missile and let the passenger jet get hit instead. This is perfectly reasonable since the rebels have been bombed repeatedly and it would only make sense for them to fire on anything that flew close to them. It was complete idiocy for commercial airlines to continue to fly over this part of Ukraine knowing that SU-25s had been knocked out of the sky….regardless of the belief that there was some altitude that was supposed to be safe.
Paul B
My thoughts exactly. The black boxes were in Russian hands for a few days and I would be extremely disappointed if the Russians would not have obtained a copy of the last minute conversation and to keep quiet about it and let Washington walk into it’s own knife by creating the Mother of all Embarrassements and trump the soon to be released audio recordings, with the last two minutes missing and publish the full recordings. Game, set and match Russia. This would dwarf the embarrassement of the release of the telephone conversation of Nicky F**kland.
Kind regards,
Dutch
P.S. all the comments sections in European media are predominantly pro-Russia. Europe is not going to get itself manouvered into a conflict with Russia, no matter how much the NATO clowns would want it.
Erebus hits the nail on the head ruling out a BUK missile…any land to air missile for that matter. It was also my first questioning of the whole event when I first heard about it. Such a BUK missile would have set off such a noise and exhaust trail, that it would have been followed by many onlookers until it hit its target. But of course this did not happen. It all happened way up in the sky, where no one down below can hear or see the fighter jets machine guns fire but the people on the jetliner themselves.
The choice of planes may have purely to do with organization of the enterprise. The false flag aspect is probably true. False flags work only with very small groups involved in planning/execution and in this case who are predisposed to being totally amoral (Nazis). (Maybe they couldn’t get the pilots of the faster jets to sign on to something so low class) Once it occurs, the action will get support amongst all those who may feel they have denial-ability as well as those who are in denial, as in unaware. It would appear that most of the Western press is in this blissful unaware situation where their paychecks and prejudices overrule reality.
The Buks must have been backup as we still have no reliable eyewitnesses of missile trails, nor drive-cam footage.
Saker . . this takes into acccount pretty much all the “facts” that are known or supposedly known Very plausable & very straight forward.
There’s a 6 odd minute CBC recording of Michael Bociurkiw – Canadian lead of the OSCE team – (but I couldn’t get it to play in New Zealand), talking machine gun holes & lack of missile evidence. Below is a link to a shortened Youtube clip where he talks about the bullet holes. I suggest everyone download a copy as it’s liable to be flushed down the memory hole & the man himself killed in a Militia / “TERRORIST” attack on his convoy at some stage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ze9BNGDyk4
As an aside to MH17, re the ongoing atrocities in Donbass AND Gaza ( & Syria for that matter), can we all take the time in the next 24 hours to contact by phone the local synagog, israeli embassy, us embassy, your own govt representitive and at least one media outlet / talkback. Let them HEAR how outraged you are. These scum know that for every person that ACTUALLY contacts them there are another 10 or 20 to feel the same. US & UK residents – let your MP/congresscritter KNOW that unless you hear them speaking out they will lose your vote & donation & that you will actively work & vote for their opponent next time theres a “election”.
Cheers
Chris in Ch-Ch
“So fellow amateur sleuths out there, where is the nearest airport to the where the airliner was attacked with the missile to its engine? In Russia or Ukraine?”
I would say Donetsk. The plane was already passed Donetsk, hence the U-turn.
Again the cockpit:
http://www.anderweltonline.com/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/Cockpit-MH017.pdf
I have not seen other parts so intensely sprayed with shrapnel/30 mm bullets.
Plausible scenario: small missile, hits engine, plane can carry on and decides to land at nearest airport Donetsk, comes at lower altitude in machine gun range of Su-25 and gunners decide to take out pilots. A Buk would have completely disintegrated the plane, which did not happen and no eyewitness on the ground supports the launching of a Buk.
Kind regards,
Dutch
Back home again, off topic but interesting debate on the European left, a couple of weeks ago edition of Fort Apache:
http://youtu.be/35z20k79fII?list=PL7-PRrKey3Ht_b5QcxIdHz2ivScTBCyEV
Enjoy!
To the people who hope Russia / Putin is going to drop the US “in it” with recordings of a possible recorded scene of chaos on the flightdeck, my guess is, don’t hold your breath.
Cast your mind back to Syria around the time of the “Assad gassed his own people” PR campaign. The “no fly zone”/lets attackplan was killed by Overwhelming public opposition in the US, painting Obomba into a corner, stuck over his red line, his size 12’s firmly in his gob. Putin didn’t expose him for the fucking scumbag, no brain liar he is, instead Putin, Lavrov & co. gave the sepos an “out” – the idea of the handing over of the Syrian chemical weapon stocks with Obomba claiming the credit, thus “avoiding” US engagement. Instead of learning a lesson in geopolitics the US learnt nothing
If the russians have got the goods it will all be done behind the scenes, the US again spared their blushes.
@вот так 04 August, 2014 06:53
Thank you. Things are clearer that I suspected. Notice that Malaysian media said that on 25 of July.
@ American Kulak,
Nice to see you again. Missed your postings and was always thinking of you.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Robert Parry seems to have some new infos from his sources:
“Contrary to the Obama administration’s public claims blaming eastern Ukrainian rebels and Russia for the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, some U.S. intelligence analysts have concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame, according to a source briefed on these findings.
This judgment – at odds with what President Barack Obama and Secretary of State John Kerry have expressed publicly – is based largely on the absence of U.S. government evidence that Russia supplied the rebels with a Buk anti-aircraft missile system that would be needed to hit a civilian jetliner flying at 33,000 feet, said the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity.”
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/03/flight-17-shoot-down-scenario-shifts/