Intro and caveat
I think that any analysis of the events surrounding the downing of MH17 should begin with the following admission: no matter what, the AngloZionists will blame Russia. Just like 9/11, there is no way, no amount of evidence, which would affect the unanimous chorus of Imperial doubleplusgoodthinkers in their conclusion that obviously it could only have been “the Russians”. So don’t expect to come across The Proof which will prove that the Empire is lying because if 9/11 proved anything it is that even hard, undeniable truth can be easily ignored by the elites and their media.
Second, I have to begin my “kind of analysis” with the following disclaimer: my information on air defense issues is about 25-30 years old which means that not only could my memory fail me, but things might have changed a great deal since I last was exposed to them. Finally, the place from which I observed air defense happening was a rather peculiar one: from a underground army command center’s air defense room which included a live fused (civilian+military) image of all the air traffic over an entire continent. I never got anywhere near a SAM site in my life, and I sure have never seen one being operated. Still, there are a few things which I know which might be relevant to this case.
If I got something wrong, or if things have recently changed, PLEASE CORRECT ME.
How air defense normally works
The control of airspace is done by two completely different networks: a civilian and a military one. The civilian one is the one people think of when they hear ATC (air traffic control). These are the folks who manage flight plans, who talk to pilots on different altitudes, who track the aircraft during the flight and make sure that there is enough distance between them. Depending on an airplane’s altitude and what it is doing, it remains in contact with different ATCs but they all work together. One more thing: the radars used by civilian ATC are very primitive, all they can “see” is a bearing. What helps them is that all aircraft have a so-called “transponder” to transmit a special message which indicates their ID, speed, altitude and course. The ATC then superimposes that info on his screen to get a pretty accurate idea of what the aircraft is doing. The important thing about all this is that the military is normally patched straight into that data and that it can use it to supplement the data military radars acquire by themselves. In other words, a military air defense network “sees” and “knows” everything that a civilians ATC knows and sees.
The task of military air defenses is dramatically different from the civilians ATC: the military expects to deal with aircraft who will do their utmost to remain undetected and once detected, the military air defense network has to figure out a way to hopefully shoot-down the enemy aircraft. As a result, the kind of technology used by the military is very different.
The first “layer” of a military air defense network will be long range detection radars. Their task is to try to detect an airborne target as far as possible. Although one type of radar can do this alone, typically data from different radars (including airborne ones) is fused to create a single picture. Already at this point the air defense command post will be patched in into the civilians ATC and it will have all the flight plans, airline names, aircraft types and expected flight routes. The air defense command post’s first task is to separate civilians (considered neutral) from possible hostiles. These 99% of flights are routine and regular, the folks in charge have a very good idea of what a normal sky looks like, they see the scheduled civilians aircraft doing their thing and they easily track them. Some military radars even have the capability to detect the kind of aircraft they are seeing on their radar simply by analyzing the radar signal bounced back (typically by the aircraft’s engine). If a target is ambiguous, the military can use a very different type of radar to track that target: this target acquisition radar will operate on a different frequency, it will have a much narrower beam, and it will provide the operator with much more info about the aircraft even if the aircraft does not have a working transponder (which would be most unusual for a civilian airliner). Again, modern armed forces have the means to fuse the data from any different radar types (including airborne radars) to calculate a solution to identify and track a target. The next step is the send a special signal, like a password, to check if aircraft might not be one of your own. Civilian aircraft are not capable of this kind if “electronic handshake”. Finally, if the military air defense command post believes that the target his hostile, it selects the best radar and missile combination to engage the target. Typically, this is done yet again by a highly specialized radar which sends a burst of energy to the target which is reflected by the airborne target and which is then caught either by a ground-based radar or even by the missile itself (that is called TVM track-via-missile) which then can guide itself to the target without emitting any signal (alternatively, the missile can use his own active guidance system which sends and receives radar signals). Advanced air defense networks, such as Russia’s, can automatically chose the best radar for each task, the missile most likely to hit, the number of missiles needed for the task, the most threatening target, the mode of engagement, etc. These systems are highly integrated and highly automated, which also means that they are much safer than more primitive systems (more about that later). They are also highly redundant which in practical terms means that if, say, in an ideal environment a missile system like the Buk M1 is just one part of a much bigger network of systems, it can also operate almost autonomously if needed (again, more about that later). Now we need to look at the “who had what” on the day of the tragedy. First, let’s look at
The Russikies and their capabilities.
While, obviously, they don’t share with me the details of their moves, it is a pretty safe guess to say that, especially considering the war going on right across the border, the Russians literally had it all on that day: civilians radars, of course, but also long range radars (ground based and airborne), lots of advanced advanced surveillance (long range detection) radars, lots of tracking and fire control radars numerous radio and signal interception stations. Since all the data from this integrated network of systems could be fused at the higher level command posts we can safely assume that the Russian side had something like “20/20 radar vision”: just about as good as it can get. There is no way the Russian shot down this aircraft by mistake.
What about the Ukrainians?
Here the reality is dramatically different: almost all of the Ukrainian air defense equipment is hopelessly outdated, far in excess of its normal shelf life. The Ukie air defense systems have not trained with live firing for dacades. Unlike the Russian who use contracted professionals on all crucial levels, the Ukies are known to be using conscripts simply due to a lack of funds. To illustrate the bloodly mess the Ukie air defenses are, it is enough to recall here how gross incompetence, mismanagement and outdated equipment resulted in the downing of the Siberian Airlines civilian aircraft in 2001. Since then, things in the Ukie air defenses have only gotten much worse. Still, the Ukies did have an ATC which at the very least should have reported that a civilian airline had a flight plan which would follow the points XYZ. I just cannot imagine a Ukie officer giving the order to shoot at an aircraft without checking for the available flight plans. Also, as far as I know, nobody ever reported that the transponder on the aircraft did not work and, if so, then that means that the Ukie air defense crew should have been receiving a clear signal identifying the aircraft. Let me add here that you can purchase special receivers and antennas which can receive transponder signals on the market and that they are comparatively cheap (1000 bucks range I think). Lastly, but still an option, a Ukie air defense operator could have simply lifted the phone, called the ATC and asked who such and such aircraft was. And even without that: when you see an aircraft flying right around 550 knots at 10’000m in a straight line in a civilian air traffic corridor, you can kinda guess that this is not a military aircraft on a bombing run. So regardless of the state of disrepair of the Ukie air defense forces, there is just no way that they could have mistaken this airliner for a Russian military jet flying on a combat mission. Oh, and did I mention MH17 was flying on west to east course, not from Russia, but towards Russia? Bottom line here for me is this: there is no way the Ukies could have shot down this aircraft by mistake.
The Novorussians now
Well, here again we truly have a dramatically different picture emerging. First, the Novorussians have no ATC. Second, 99% of their air defense systems are either MANPADs (man portable) or heavy machine guns. I did see footage of some kind of air defense radar and command post, but I suspect that this was simply one surveillance radar left by the Ukies. No data fusion here, no integrated air defense network, no long range missiles. Except for the few Buk M-1s which they did get as a trophy when they took control a Ukie base a month or so ago. The fact is that I am still unsure whether they really got anything operable systems at all (the Ukies claim that their soldiers had disabled them, but that might not be true). But we probably have to assume that they got their hands on a least one operational vehicle with its own surveillance radar, engagement radar and missiles. As I mentioned earlier, modern states would integrate the Buk into a full air defense network, but since in war time this might not be possible, it is possible for the Buk to detect, acquire and engage a target all by itself. Frankly, I find it very unlikely that the systems the Novorussians got their hands on would have been operational. I find it even more unlikely that they would also have the people to operate them. Still, just to cover our bases, we have to assume that with Russian aid these systems could have been more or less fixed, and that a crew could also have been sent from Russia. Unlikely? Far fetched? Yes. But, alas, not impossible.
Still, there is the flight profile issue. The real threat for Novorussians comes from close air support (low level) and from reconnaissance (medium level) aircraft. Not those flying at 10’000 meters. Also, a Boeing 777 is much larger than an An-26, Su-25, Su-24 or even Su-27. Also, ask yourself, IF you had such a capable and advanced air defense system as the Buk, would you waste it on a poorly identified target? Probably not. Still, I think that at least in theory the Nororussians could have shot down this aircraft. Now let’s look at the famous
Cui bono?
Well here at least the reply is unambiguous: only the junta in Kiev could have benefited from this tragedy. For the Russians and the Novorussians, this is something between a real pain and a disaster. Just when the Novorussians were winning without any overt help from Moscow and just when Moscow was gradually successful in denouncing the human costs of Poroshenko’s murderous policies – suddenly the entire planet focuses just on one downed aircraft and the imperial corporate media blames it all on Russia. As for Poroshenko, this disaster is God-sent: not only has everybody forgotten that much promised “surprise” turned out to be a disaster, he can now kill scores of Novorussians with no risks of that being reported in the corporate media. Not only that, but that gives the Ukies a golden excuse to ask for “”protection” from their “aggressive and threatening neighbor”. Again, the only party who can benefit from this disaster is the junta. So, in summary, we have this list of candidates:
1) A deliberate or mistaken Russian attack: superlatively unlikely
2) A mistaken Ukrainian attack: most unlikely
3) A deliberate Ukrainian attack: most likely
4) A mistaken Novorussian attack: possible
5) A deliberate Novorussian attack: most unlikely
I don’t know about you, but to me #3 is the one blinking red.
Now let’s look at some of the crazy rumors which we have heard today.
a) one or two Ukie military aircraft shadowing MH17 before it was shot down.
b) at least one parachute after MH17 was shot down.
c) an air-to-air attack.
d) an attempt as shooting down Putin’s aircraft.
I don’t know if any of these above are true, but what I do notice is that all of them, if true, only ‘fit’ scenario #3: a deliberate Ukie attack. Nobody claimed that MH17 was shadowed by Russian fighters and the Novorussians don’t have any anyway (they only have one Su-25). If somebody was shot down (the parachutes) then it was most definitely not a Russian Air Force aircraft. Ditto for an air-to-air attack. As for shooting down Putin’s aircraft, this seems far fetched to me, even for the crazy freak show in power in Kiev. However, I would not put that kind of trick passed Uncle Sam who can always blame it on the Ukies. What is sure is that the US wants Putin dead. So maybe?
The current version of the Novorussians is an interesting one: they say that a Ukie Su-25 shot down MH17 and that they then shot down the Ukie Su-25. Actually, this is not the most unlikely possibility. Of course, this also means that if the Novorussians attempted to shoot down a Ukie Su-25 they might have missed and the missile might have continued towards the MH17 especially if its radar had gone active. So a Novorussian mistake is still a “possible”, at least in my mind. If, and this is a big IF, this was a Novorussian mistake, I don’t feel that we can blame them very much. The one undeniable fact is that this disaster happened in Ukrainian ATC space and they, the Ukie ATC, had the primary responsibility to keep MH17 in a safe air corridor and not the Novorussians who had neither the technical means nor the legal obligation to do so. Also, just a few days ago the Ukies had announced that they were closing the airspace over the combat zone to an altitude of 9600m (if I remember correctly). If the Novorussians heard this, they could have easily concluded that MH17 was a military recon flight flying towards Donestk from Dnepropetrovsk. Besides, I am not at all sure that the radar on the Buk M1 can differentiate between 9’600m and 10’000m or, if it can, that the operator would have been aware of the difference this could mean.
Again, keep in mind my caveat above. I am not, repeat, not a specialist of air defenses. But I did do some air defense and monitoring work in my past, and on the basis of that experience and of what I have heard so far is here my guess:
I would say that at this point in time I am 90% in favor of the deliberate Ukie attack theory. The remaining 10% I would give to the mistaken Novorussian attack version. I am more than willing to change my mind if I get new facts.
Stuff we should look for
First, the black boxes. Even when hit, most pilots have the time to say something and that something is usually recorded and radioed. Depending on the frequency used, that “something” should have been heard by PLENTY of receivers, not only the Ukie ATC. But at the very least, we should have the voice and data recorders from the last minutes of MH17.
Second, Russian radar tracks. That is a problem. The Russian military is one of the worst offenders in terms of secrecy and short of a direct order by Putin, they are likely to be most uncooperative. Still, these guys probably have it all: ATC chatter, pilot messages, transporter signal, exact location of the missile(s) launched, point of impact, etc. As I said, they most likely had a 20/20 vision of the air space over Donetsk. The trick is to get them to share it, especially with the corporate media and the “independent” experts all already clamoring that the Russians are tampering with the flight recorders. Still, things are changing in Russia, possibly after the PR disaster following the Soviet shooting down of KAL 007 (which most definitely was a US spy mission and deliberate provocation), they are more willing to share data. A spokesman for the Russian Air Force has already disclosed that they had recorded the signals of a Ukie BukM1 battery surveillance radar at the moment of the tragedy. He even identified the exact Ukie unit involved. Hopefully, as this scandal snowballs, the Kremlin will order the Russian Air Force to make more data public. Not to convince Uncle Sam and his EU minions, of course, but at least to convince the rest of the planet.
Speaking of Uncle Sam and his EU minions. They also know. The US and NATO maintains a 24/7 surveillance of Ukie and Russian air space at least to the Urals, possibly even on the other side (though I am not sure). I bet you that Obama was told who done it within 2 hours of the tragedy happening. That info was probably shared with the Echelon countries, but not with the rest of NATO, but even they probably know thanks to their own intelligence capability (Banderastan is chock-full of EU spies not a single one of which was ever caught by the Ukie SBU since independence!). So here again we have a 9/11 kind of situation: everybody knows, but nobody will admit it.
The last question then
There is an obvious last question which we need to ask: if the Ukies did it, could they have done so without the US knowing about it? The answer, in case anybody had any doubts about this, is absolutely categorically and emphatically not. No way Jose, not this regime, not one which is 110% dependent of, and submitted to, Uncle Sam. In other words, if this was a deliberate Ukie attack, then this really was a deliberate US attack. Not quite a “false flag”, but a sneaky dirty trick, a longtime US specialty. The typical US way works like this: organized and planned by Uncle Sam, paid for by the Saudis, executed by the Israelis. At least that is the historical record for US dirty tricks. That is also most likely how 9/11 was done. Why bring in 9/11 several times at the risk of infuriating the doubleplusgoodthinking crowd yet again? No, not just for the heck of it, but to remind everybody that the folks who killed 3000+ people on 9/11 would not hesitate for a nanosecond to kill “only” 300 or so, especially if the risk of getting caught is negligible, which in this case it is. If in the case of 9/11 it is the entire Establishment which by stupidity or by cowardice which was made an accomplice of the crime, in this case the folks who did it will have the support of a rabidly russophobic Establishment which will not care one bit about the truth as long as it allows it to further flame the flames of hatred against Russia.
A provisional conclusion of sorts – Lasciate Ogni Speranza
This crime will never be properly investigated nor will the culprits ever be punished for it. Oh sure, there will be plenty of books in the future who will reveal it all in minute details but, as Michel Parenti always reminds us, history is not only written by victors, it is also written by the elites, the oligarchs, the banking establishment, the 1%ers. If anything, 9/11 has proven that our society is completely indifferent to facts and proof. Our society is ruled by ideological dogma and political expediency. In the case of MH17 the accepted dogma is that the Novorussians are the bad guys and the political expediency says that this latest crime cannot be blamed on the “heroic Euro-Ukrainian freedom fighters” or, even less so, on Uncle Sam.
Just as I wrote this last sentence above, I decided to check my favorite Imperial Mouthpiece and, sure enough, I read this: “US President Barack Obama has said a surface-to-air missile fired from a rebel-held area in east Ukraine brought down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17“. See, it is that simple! How needs flight recorders of radar tracks anyway?! If the US President said so, then it is so. Any other interpretation is a criminal delusion bordering on terrorism. Who needs proof when we got both Poroshenko and Obama saying that the Russikies did it?
I am disgusted beyond words by both of these ugly, evil, clowns.
Well, I hope that that some of you will have found the exercises above useful, regardless of all my caveats. I wish my recollection of working with air defenses was better and I wish my knowledge was not 25 year old. As always, this is the best I can do and I share it to you, my friends, in the hope to resist the imperial propaganda machine the best I can. If there are those amongst you who have a more recent and possibly more hands-on knowledge of these topics, I beg them to share that knowledge with the rest of us.
Kind regards and many thanks,
The Saker
My guess is it is a mix:
100% Chance Ukrainian Kiev intentional directed the plane over that path and lowered its flight path to 1000 m above prohibited space, AND (then 50% Ukrainians shot it down OR 50% the Self Defense Forces shot it down thinking it was a Military Plane. ) In all cases, it is the Ukrainian Kiev failure to indicate that should be a complete no fly zone. Now in return, I have seven apartments in Lugansk being shelled by massive Ukrainian Arty attacks with the Ukrainians Lying Openly and claiming the LPR is shelling their own city. Which mind you many of these LPR people are Lugansk Residents. Lugansk has a much larger percentage of Lugansk residents then Donetsk. Non of the peole I know would ever shell Lugansk willingly. Frankly the decision to NOT have refugee camps for civilians in Ukrainian Territory says it pretty much. The goal is to drive AS MANY of the people (civilians) as possible out of Eastern Ukraine permanently. Unfortunately for the Ukrainians, the officer staff of the DPR is significantly more competent then the ATO forces. Fairly obvious. Yes, I wrote once or twice before. Need to visit Florida.
@ Saker, Thank you for your analysis. I suppose, as usual we will never hear the Russian side of the story. Everything will be drowned in the White House hysteria.
I have a question on a completely different, yet important subject :
If something happens to Putin is there anyone who can step in and carry on as planned? Better yet, carry on with more vigor, determination and fearlessness? Putin has to have someone like this, because it would discourage the Zionists from trying to kill him. If they know that they can corrupt and hijack Russian government, they absolutely will do it. So having somebody who can step in would be an insurance policy. Obviously Medvedev is weak and not truly Pro-Russian, perhaps Rogozin?
A Spanish ATC (Air Traffic Controller) working in Kiev has revealed that he & all other foreign ATC’s where removed from work & the radar/communications,etc. of the flight was confiscated immediately after the shoot down. He implicates the Ukie Military in shadowing MH17. & that the plane was rerouted away from the course it usually takes,south of the conflict zone, and through the Donbass region. Sherrie has a video outlining this and a screen capture of what appears to be “Chaff” falling from the sky through the smoke rising from the burning MH17 (allegedly) She’s not the most eloquent of “reporters” but she has enough info to make it worth while reading. Radio New Zealand said the plane took off 14 minutes late (Bomb planted ???? Probably not but ya gotta consider everything) and it was within an hour or so of the crash that Israhell started their ground invasion of the Gaza Strip.
In New Zealand our media is parroting the White House talking points . . .who woulda guessed ??
http://sherriequestioningall.blogspot.co.nz/2014/07/ukraine-air-traffic-control-routed-mh17.html
Cheers
Chris in Ch-Ch
What is happening with the offensive against junta? Was it all stopped because of this, evidently Kiev’s/CIA engineered, crime against the passengers of the Malaysian airline? There is absolutely no news of any kind on this front. It seems to be like this is yet another layer of evil directed at the anti-Nazi resistance of Novorossiya.
Spin isn’t reality. This business will do nothing to change the facts on the ground. I can pretty much guarantee that no popular Western crusade against Russia or the Eastern Separatists will develop as a result of this. The civil war will grind on.
The self-generated media hysteria will accomplish nothing and in a week or so the MSM will be off yipping and hooting at the newest bright and shiny thing.
Nobody will be prosecuted. Someday the facts may come out, but nobody but enthusiasts will care.
Another very, very simple question:
Why would pro-Russian fighters even target an aircraft flying at 33,000 ft. and clearly headed into Russia which is only 20 something miles away.
Personally, I think this is in a realm of total impossibility.
I think it’s safe to say that ultimately there won’t be conclusive evidence about who is responsible for the planecrash.
The positions at the UN security council remained unchanged. Russia’s foes accused Novorussia and/or Russia. Russia’s friends remained neutral and insisted on impartial investigations. Given that there won’t be proof either way I think that ultimately the planecrash is not a gamechanger. The long-term projects (Eurasia, BRICS) will continue. Short-term there will be more sanctions, but they won’t be life-threatening.
Russia has already successfully dealt with at least one such incident (Ghouta), so it is experienced in maneuvering in such stressful situations on the diplomatic front, it also has experience in doing sufficient propaganda work to fizzle out MSM hysteria. Sanctions will come, but Europe didn’t fall for Ghouta, so hopefully they will also not fall for the planaecrash incident. My only concern is that there is a danger that the propaganda work may be overdone, for example „Der Spiegel“ is already portraying Putin as a crazy conspiracy theorist.
What we can expect is that the US increases weapons supply to the junta, maybe even overtly. But I hope it won’t really change anything substantial on the ground. Russia will have to be more careful with supplying Donbass, but I think they will manage somehow.
The worst case is that someone from Novorussian Army mistakenly shot down the plane and that undeniable proof comes out. Is that a gamechanger? I think only if Europe wants it to be. The question is will Russia still be able to support Novorussia? I think yes, they will call for the responsible to face punishment, there will be hysteria, but it could be concentrated on one person, or a small group of persons. And a month or two after that everything will continue like before.
There are other ways to bring the plane down
– hypersonic missile
– Laser weapon
– Narrow focused electronic pulse
— many more ways today rather than the old large SA missile.
Secondly, it could be that the junta is out of it… That is, ZOG contractors or Black project (say space based larer weapon) were done by the secret team, thus the junta believes they didn’t do it and thus it had to be the other side. That’s the way I would do it.
Then, who made the fake tape about the conversation between some rebel and Russian intelligence blaming stupid Cossack checkpoint. Clearly someone had that ready to go, if you can find the source of that you could find at least some portion of the conspirators… though due to compartmentalization probably not the real puppet master.
This whole “incident” has the same smell as the Syrian gas attack false flag.
There will likely be the same kind of bullshit that followed that one.
I agree that the Russian military should have ALL the information on this, especially if Putin’s plane had been in the air ANYWHERE near the area or ANYWHERE close to the time it occurred.
Does any intelligent adult believe anything coming out of the Ukrainian Junta’s propaganda machine anymore?
Pretty Much Everyone Is Pissed at Putin Right Now.
Someone, somewhere must be going, “We ff-ing did it!!!!”
Does the incident come at just the right time or what? The Apartheid State’s slaughtering Palestinians in an ‘offensive’ [wtf?], Putin’s the bloody butcher of innocent, flying civilians, the insurgents/rebels/pro-Russian/whatever are…
Oh, they don’t have an air force?
So… the WUF’s air defense machinery is to…
“Ya, keep zee Rhussianhs oud!”
That loud whining sound is Machiavelli spinning in his grave in Tuscan, coz he hates it when he’s outdone.
Saker,
I am learning toward MH17 is shot by a jet. However, in order to do so, does the Jet need to fly around 10km also? If so, how fast can it get to Manpad level to get shot down by NAF? Can you or any one give a reasonable explanation?
On the internet, there are a lot talk of the way it got hit, and fell down almost intact, point to jet not a surface to air missile.
Thanks for the analysis, Saker! I am truly sickened by this tragedy. All the more so if it turns out to have been deliberate murder of over 300 innocent souls. What enrages me even more are3 the statements by Obama and crew about how the plane went down, the Ukie “recordings” and all of the rest. I smell a rel rate in this. My guess is that they had to do something to try to break up the unity of the BRICs. By the way, Frontline put out a 32 minute “report” on Ukraine that glorifies the Right Sektor and portrays Bandera as a righteous patriot who battled both the Nazis and the Communists. The problem is that these are aimed at the Americans, not anyone else, because it is the Americans that have to be convinced that they must defeat the “mongol Horde” this time around. By the way, have any of you noticed that there are no programs about Russia on PBS channels any more? Is this a coincidence or something more? I smell a real rat here waving the US/US/NATO flag and grinning like a Cheshire cat. How do we stop this?
Again a very interesting article and very smart reasoning.
Let me add something:
– The big picture. 20 years ago the americans feared nobody and felt confident to attack anyone safe the USSR. 10 years ago they only dared to attack militarily insignificant and already badly weakened countries like Iraq. Some years later they did not even dare that much anymore but rather began to have others (like their eu vassals) do the fighting for them.
Short, the usa has been deteriorating badly and is a very much weakened ex-superpower.
Moreover their classical and only way of fighting isn’t working anymore. Their soldiers are worn out and (with solid reason) mistrusting of their government, the usa is all but officially bankrupt, and their “high-tech” weapons are but blabla.
Operation ukraine is of strategic, even of vital importance for usa. Had it succeeded they might have had a chance to uproot Russia (using their 5th colon traitors); now, however, that chance is gone and the usa is facing the very grave danger of not being any longer capable to hide their demise and incompetence. Don’t forget, usa’s power (well, what little is left) is *not* about real power, it’s purely about an *image* of power.
The facts on the ground strongly suggest that ukraine was/is losing against Novorossija – which everyone would immediately understand as the usa having lost against Russia. This couldn’t be allowed to happen, no matter what, no matter the cost.
Again, the usa is about *image* not about facts. The core problem is hence to avoid at any cost serious damage to the image of the usa being a superpower and being in control.
Another, closely related, problem is that there are only 3 parties who (theoretically) could fight the fight. a) the usa; this is a no go because they would under no circumstances dare to directly confront Russia militarily. b) the Europeans; this is theorie as, in fact, an increasingly large group of eu countries is almost openly revolting against usa’s operation ukraine. Yes, they talk the bla bla as commanded – but ret assured that they shy away from action; after all the usa is far away and the eu carries 99% of all risks and consequences. 2 exceptions: the baltic “states” but they are completely insignificant; and poland; but whores aren’t fighters and as the sikorsky case has shown many of them smile while sharpening their knives behind ones backs.
Well, and c) usa’s planned go fors, the ukrainian thug regime.
In other words, usa is out of realistic options and very much in danger of having their “power” image broken. Consequently they (once more and lightheartedly) arranged for a situation at the cost of some hundred innocents.
Oh, and btw: I do not believe the ukrainians did it. a) they are demonstrably completely incompetent and b) the usa would not trust them in such a vital issue. I’m convinced the pilots were americans and the missiles were fired by americans, too (probably mercenaries to have scapegoats if needed).
But – as usual – Russia will turn out to be perfectly well prepared and suffocate the usa thugs with their own “medicine”.
Mr. Pragma
In terms of how this plays out, what bothers me most is the obvious potential to disrupt the ongoing Novorossiyan military successes with all these people and distractions. So many ways to do that there’s no point even trying to list them: you just know various of their maneuvers are already going on. But Russia’s other significant accomplishments these past few weeks seem quite solid, especially when compared to our violent but otherwise quite empty splutter and bluster: do any world leaders take Obama seriously, as opposed to Biden, the NSA, etc.? I don’t really think so; they’re just too well-mannered to show him what they really think or feel. and not quite ready yet to burn any bridges, just in case we do manage to beat the odds and pull out of our self-imposed tailspin.
But I really, truly, profoundly disagree with you, Saker, on one other thing: people all over the world ARE waking up to the truth, and you and all the work you have done and are doing to provide facts, analyze them and educate all of us, are a HUGE part of that process.
On behalf on myself and Mr. Nora and in the memory of every victim of these ongoing atrocities, let me just extend a deep, deep, deep Thank You.
Russian Defense Ministry poses these 10 questions to the Ukrainian authorities:
TEN QUESTIONS FOR THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES
1. Immediately after the tragedy, the Ukrainian authorities, naturally, blamed it on the self-defense forces. What are these accusations based on?
2. Can Kiev explain in detail how it uses Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone? And why were these systems deployed there in the first place, seeing as the self-defense forces don’t have any planes?
3. Why are the Ukrainian authorities not doing anything to set up an international commission? When will such a commission begin its work?
4. Would the Ukrainian Armed Forces be willing to let international investigators see the inventory of their air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, including those used in SAM launchers?
5. Will the international commission have access to tracking data from reliable sources regarding the movements of Ukrainian warplanes on the day of the tragedy?
6. Why did Ukrainian air traffic controllers allow the plane to deviate from the regular route to the north, towards “the anti-terrorist operation zone”?
7. Why was airspace over the warzone not closed for civilian flights, especially since the area was not entirely covered by radar navigation systems?
8. How can official Kiev comment on reports in the social media, allegedly by a Spanish air traffic controller who works in Ukraine, that there were two Ukrainian military planes flying alongside the Boeing 777 over Ukrainian territory?
9. Why did Ukraine’s Security Service start working with the recordings of communications between Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the Boeing crew and with the data storage systems from Ukrainian radars without waiting for international investigators?
10. What lessons has Ukraine learned from a similar incident in 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 crashed into the Black Sea? Back then, the Ukrainian authorities denied any involvement on the part of Ukraine’s Armed Forces until irrefutable evidence proved official Kiev to be guilty.
http://rt.com/news/173976-mh17-crash-questions-ukraine/
Saker
“The current version of the Novorussians is an interesting one: they say that a Ukie Su-25 shot down MH17 and that they then shot down the Ukie Su-25. Actually, this is not the most unlikely possibility.”
First time I’ve heard such a claim. Where did the Novorussians say that?
вот так
This comment has been removed by the author.
Many of us pundits did anticipate a false flag or dodgy manoeuvre brewing.
Trivially this was it.
From all possible scenarios, my gut feeling tells me it is a sophisticated US operation inclusive of these two possibilities:
.entrapment fooling whoever shot the plane that it was a hostile.
.fully US controlled and executed.
Aqui no Brasil você não chega perto de um sistema desses se não for Sargento (para trocar pneus), tenente (para dirigir o sistema) ou capitão (para operar – deve ser Engenheiro).
Você não lança míssil desse tipo sem autorização de General que está em contato com Presidente.
Há uma hierarquia lógica nas Forças Armadas, ninguém dá um tiro sem ordem acima, é básico.
Hollywood mostra o contrário do que é a vida real.
Infelizmente, estão a mostrar um “filme” que não é possível na vida real.
Só um “Sheeple” gordo idiota acreditaria que é possível fazer um Buk funcionar com proscritos recém enganjados (à força).
Isso é coisa de gente que assiste muito filme.
Proftel.
:-)
CDN says:
According to Wikipedia SU-25 has a low service ceiling and would likely be unable to reach FL330 with a full load of fuel and missiles.
Not impossible but not the task the plane was designed for.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-25
Service ceiling: 7,000 m (22,960 ft) clean, 5,000 m (16,000 ft) with max weapons
—
In line with Sakar’s analysis I would ask why the UAF thought it necessary to move their own BUK systems adjacent to the southern front? I cannot find the reports but when the nes of the cauldron came out there was a secondary report of the UAF moving armour to a blocking position to prevent the rebels moving west once they had cleaned up the cauldron. This force included armour and BUK systems.
—
What needs to be done is work the physics of the incident. Work back from the debris field to an estimated missile impact point and then draw a radius around that point representing the engagement range of the BUK. BUK is medium level medium range hardware. It does not have the capabilities of S-300, S-400, or S-500. MUch better than IGLA but still a fairly limited system intended to protect a tactical battlespace not the entire front.
Once you have such an engagement radius then it should be possible to sift through reports from before July 17th and determine which side had the capabilities in place to carry out such an attack.
Cheers!
I saw this go down live on the internet after following this conflict intensely for months and finally getting most accurate reports from @gbazov @ friends, militaryphotos.net, this site. Never was a false flag operation more evident . . . timing, media preparation, UA troll clues, all kinds of things . . . I was in NYC on 911 and I didn’t know about false flags at that time but now I do.
No doubt, for the Russian Federation, this is just another day in the ongoing war. They are thinking in terms of survival, decades . . . so easy for emotions to go up and down.
As an American, I’ve never been more committed to the destruction of America and I support the Russian Federation and Novorussia to do whatever has to be done up to and including wiping the USA off the face of the planet.
Anonymous said :
“As an American Ive never been more committed to the destruction of America”.
Its going to happen and nothing can either stop it or change it. The native Hopi indians said “and on those who dropped the gourd of ashes it will be dropped”, the gourd of ashes being nuclear weapons and America to date has been the only country to use nuclear weapons against another country. The destruction of America is an inevitability. In revelations 19 it is written that the nations of the earth will stand and watch with horror the burning of babylon. Rest assured their fate has long been sealed.
Take it easy. It is the rotted social system that has to go, not the flippin country.
I agree with Sligo at 19 July, 2014 00:07 – spin isn’t reality, nothing has changed the facts on the ground. I hope the freedom fighters will be able to continue their fight unchecked by this.
I hope for two results from this. Something Nora articulated yesterday better than I can, namely that some residual conscience must be operating at some level in the western allies of the US. Who knows where individual tipping points lie? And who knows where the populace of a nation starts to swing the other way from a point of view? So hopefully this massacre of the innocents has an affect of repulsion at some level somewhere.
Secondly, I would settle for a small incremental gain if the term “False Flag” would be introduced into common parlance the way that the Occupy movement brought the “one percent” and “ninety-nine percent” terms into everyday use.
This would open the door for a lot of discussion in social gatherings and more mainstream conversations than currently. It would take the false flag out of the conspiracy realm (even though it seems to me now to have been a standard military method for centuries), and bring it into the realm of the plausible. This would be a great advance in the information war, which is the real war, the war of lies that has been strangling this world, forever I suppose.
So I yet hope for gains from this evil act, towards an eventual justice. And I remain very impressed with Russia’s intelligent understanding of this information war, and its gradual maneuverings in the pursuit of this war.
The MH17 flight was not the first, not nearly the only flight over Ukraine by airliners. To give an idea how often an airliner was above Novorossia:
Virgin Atlantic plane was in same area as MH17: Packed Heathrow-bound airliner was flying through Ukrainian airspace at same time as Malaysia Airlines aircraft was shot out the sky
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2697098/THREE-HUNDRED-planes-scheduled-fly-Ukraine-day-MH17-tragedy.html#ixzz37sKMV0wt
So how come the Novorussians decided to shoot at MH17, but at none of the 100s of others before it?
There is no way Novorussians would see MH17 as anything other than one of the 100s of airliners that have traversed their territory.
вот так
Russia will support the militia because the militia is an adjunct of Russia. They are fighting a war for Russia’s security.
The war will go on. The Militia will drive the Ukies into oblivion.
Propaganda will continue against Russia and Putin for years.
What matters is that Russia is successfully getting the Militia whatever it needs.
The Ukies are successful at destroying the homes and businesses of the Donbass. But they are losing their Army. They are down several thousand soldiers killed, thousands more wounded and deserted. The prisoners are being treated very well and will form into battalion to join the final push against the junta. It’s self-preservation for those conscripts. They can’t go home in safety until Kiev is defeated.
This air disaster got the massive rout of the Ukies off the news. It opens a gap again for Kiev to ferociously attack Lugansk.
But, the real Intel shows no propaganda or sanctions or hot air or Tweets can change the battlefield. The real Intel shows the Russians are determined to win. And the West is backing a loser.
That terrifies the Hegemon. That terrifies NATO.
And they are losing everywhere.
Putin isn’t playing for time. He is playing with time. I think we will see a speedup of events soon.
Denis Pusilin was taken out of office (resigned in Moscow). Consolidation of DNR means Russia is in for good. The internal structure for the future of the region is set by Putin.
The Ukrainian dominoes will be falling like autumn leaves.
CDN says:
Another thought.
There were no Americans on MH17.
The initial reports stated that Americans were aboard but the last issued flight manifest did not show any.
The alleged UAF recording of “chatter” between a rebel and a GRU controller has been shown to be dated the day before July 17th.
Is it possible to determine if there were Americans listed on the flight manifest for the 16th?
The suspect narrative would be that the attack was primed for the 16th but then called off for some reason. This resulted in the supporting evidence being uploaded a day early. The “evidence” was then pulled back and re-uploaded on the day of the actual attack.
I can see Obama and the USSA being willing to sacrifice other foreign nationals but much less willing to sacrifice US nationals.
Cheers!
Bot Tak,
If you go to Gleb’s blog, you can find the Spanish ATC controller claim it is shot down from beginning. Also Eye witness account of Jet shot plane from the very first day. Here also site(s) of analysis points to AA instead of surface to Air. I do have one question that I am asking Saker above regarding if the Jet need to be at 11km? if so, does it make sense for it to decent to 6km to get shot down by NAF after it shot down the plane.
http://bobik-57.livejournal.com/1335504.html
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums…138750-Su-25SM
CDN says:
Unwanted evidence in support of Saker’s NAF theory:
http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/11020.html#cutid1
The above link is dated June 30th 2014 and reports on NAF capture of BUK systems and provides an image of two BUK units.
One unit appears to be a reload unit but the second unit (on the right of the image) is a TELAR which includes the Transporter / Erector / Launcher plus the Acquisition Radar.
Ukies claim the system was / is non-operational. But this capture gave the NAF a rumoured capability that it lacked up to this point.
Cheers!
I fully second the opinion of Larchmonter445 (19 July, 2014 01:07).
Great to see Mr. Pragma commenting, hope to see more . . . Mr. Pragma was the highlight of the now neutered MOA blog.
A long bleeding guerilla war through the winter . . . maybe Cuba will recognize Novorussia and give humanitarian aid.
Probably some interesting things will happen soon away from Donetsk and Lugansk.
yeh .. presenting evidence won’t change US Regime propaganda one iota. But, intelligent people who are wondering will welcome anything that has basis in reality.
What matters more than convincing the US Regime leaders to face reality, is to convert the people into basing their views on evidence rather than propaganda. Ie. the schism between the Regime and it’s people is in proportion to the difference between the propaganda and reality.
The US Regime rulers have a mindset where they think they can create a reality by controlling information. But we’re all embedded within reality, reality isn’t a figment of the imagination to be controlled by propaganda. we all have an instinct for when propaganda differs from reality .. so, that instinct needs to be helped along by presentation of evidence whenever possible.
/rant
@ Grieved,
Those who let 3,000 die on our soil have no hearts, no soul. Any whistle blower will be maligned or get the Michael Hastings treatment.
Look at what happened after Snowden spilled the beans… Zilch.
I am writing in Portuguese with English translation from Google. My comment disputes the Saker in the following point: the important thing is not knowing who shot down the plane of Malaysia but who put him where he was. And we know that Kiev was the guilty one of this. If the resistance militias shot down, did the legitimate right of defense since it does not have air force or information or air traffic control in the region and thus for them anything that fly over their heads is the enemy attack. But if the forces of the coup regime did so, it is a war crime as they have access to all information of air traffic in the region. It is known that the coup regime of Kiev thinks about war crimes. Thus, anyone who guided the aircraft passengers to the center of the fire, or has allowed it drove there is to blame for the accident. I would think so if any of my loved ones were on that plane.
Saker thanks for this analysis.I do have a probably stupid question for you,but anyway.
I can’t believe that MH has two fatal ”accidents”(one being this missile attack,but nobody knows what happened to the other MH flight earlier in march).
The probabilities of the very same airline,with the very same type of boeing(777)having twice in a such short period of time two fatal crash and or attacks,are near 0.000000000001 pct for me.
I used to work in the airline industry,MH is not a bad company eventhough they are no Emirates or or any other IATA legacy airline.
They don’t have so many flights from Europe to KUL compared to their competitors.They must have been targeted and chosen on purpose.
Do you think Malaysia could have a kind of conflict with the empire?And that maybe because they did not get the RIGHT message(blackmail)with the first crash..we have a second attack over Ukraine…and over the Donbass and indirectly against MH..very very very strange coincidence no?
I’m not a conspiracy theorist fan at all,but I do have difficulties to believe that.
Like we say in french’faire d’une pierre deux coups’.The Empire(US/NATO/UE)having used this flight for both aims,the first being to destroy the credibility of Russia/dpr once and for all,and the second,a second attack on MH and or Malaysia for a reason we don’t know?
Let’ s note that the first MH flight involved China and this time it is Russia..two BRICS countries and the two most and probably last ennemies resisting the anglozio empire.
What do you think about that?
Thanks coop.
nb:just thinking about a mossad or mercenaries possibility as the Oligarchs have very deep connections in Israel and very deep pockets as well,eventhough they are quiet buzy in Gaza for the moment.
But never know..
Dear Mr.Pragma,I missed you for so long!!!!!Your analysis were soo extremely relevant……I agree with your comment and I’m glad to find you at the Saker because you will ad valuable textures to his writing.
(Nobody)
Ps:where have you left “zusa”?
Anonymous said…19 July, 2014 01:12
I’ve seen the evidence that MH17 was shot down by an Ukrainian jet, and that 2 jets were near it before, but only one after wards. And that the parachutes might have been from the jet that went missing.
What I had not seen before was the claim by Novorussians that they shot down the missing Ukrainian jet that had been near the airliner. That’s why I was asking Saker where he got that bit of information from.
вот так
As several people have pointed out, the BUK was sent into the SE for some reason. And the BUK is principally designed to shoot aircraft down. There are not yet SE aircraft. Only Ukes and civilians. I think via Occam’s razor we have it there. The BUK are *inappropriate* for SE battle, period. So I conclude the Ukrainians moved the BUK into SE with the clear intention of shooting a civilian airliner down and blame it on Russia, which they’ve managed to do. They had that flight fly as low as possible, to make certain of the BUK success. Cui Bono + Occam Razor convinces me.
Collateral Damage
I find it far to early for anybody to blame any side.
First one assumes that as with any civilian death in a war-zone that it was unintended collateral damage. To fly into a war-zone that has every day airplanes shot at is a risk no airline should take if alternate routes are available.
At this stage nothing should be excluded. One may speak about probabilities – anybody who claims to know what happened only creates suspicion on himself.
One more possibility would be that a bomb had been placed in the plane which was triggered either by gps or radio-signal to explode over the conflict zone.
The story with a su-25 being the one who shot it down doesn’t sound reasonable. Those planes don’t fly at 10000m and usually have very limited air to air capability. They normally carry only air to ground weapons and are to slow to chase an airliner at 10000m/900+kmh anyway.
One can never exclude pure coincidence but two airplanes in a few month is stressing chance to the limit. Especially as many predicted that MH370 would reappear in a false flag. MH17 is a bit like seeing a ghost plane.
Anyway lets hope that is not another
RMS Lusitania.
Q
Regarding Americans on the plane, there were reports that before Pan Am 103 blew up over Lockerbie that several “important” Americans were advised to not board the flight in London. But there was a CIA team, known as “the McKee Team”, that was returning to the US against orders from Beirut. That five CIA agents were on the plane was reported in the first hours, then ignored in the press.
I can’t remember for sure if it was the Operation Northwoods, but the US military/intelligence people had a plan to blow up a plane and blame it on Castro, so maybe you think that something like blowing up an airliner of innocent civilians is unimaginable, but some people had plans drawn up for it fifty years go.
There is something about that eyewitness report that really bothers me: there was a fair amount of cloud cover that day and that plane was pretty darned high. How well could it have been seen through the clouds? Maybe the fighter planes were lower? But still…
And hello Mr. Pragma! It’s just wonderful to have you around again; I’m hardly the only one who’s missed you! Glad you’re here and speaking up. ;~)
Has there ever been a false flag that didn’t work. This one has done it’s job. It’s confirmed, Putin is Hitler.
Novorossiya will carry on. It will be years before this is over. The west will continue to finance Kiev and Porky will supply the military with cannon fodder. And when all the cannon fodder is either dead or has surrendered, the war will end.
Anonymous said…19 July, 2014 00:56
“CDN says:
According to Wikipedia SU-25 has a low service ceiling and would likely be unable to reach FL330 with a full load of fuel and missiles.
Not impossible but not the task the plane was designed for.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-25
Service ceiling: 7,000 m (22,960 ft) clean, 5,000 m (16,000 ft) with max weapons”
This site says ceiling 7-10000m:
http://en.ria.ru/infographics/20100812/160169830.html
And this one 10000m:
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=195
Wikipedia is mostly rubbish edited by zionists and it wastes people’s time.
The 2 Ukrainian fighter jets may have been Su-27.
вот так
I got some information on the Buk system.
It requires a minimum of four vehicles – five if extra missiles are carried, or the launch vehicle is not loaded.
The three other vehicles are for detection, aiming and control.
A highly trained crew of 15-17 personnel is required, so it all points to the Junta eh, given all else.
Friends, we come from all over the world and meet on this blog. Christians, Muslims, Europeans, Russians, Americans. I also see Hinduists and Buddists posting here. Some wise Catholics and wise Shia Muslims. I much appreciate posts from Australia, Canada and New Zeeland. People in these countries may not understand Europe and Russia as I understand them, there is a severe language barrier, but they understand principles and honour them. I hated having to learn three foreign languages in my youth, but now I am thankful. Later I also learned some Russian.
What I fear most is the unexpected and what it may do to all of us. The loss of the Malaysian plane came from nowhere. Everything I see in Ukraine has been unexpected. The fall of the president, Krim, the civil war, the sanctions.
Tomorrow something else may happen and we may all suffer. We are close to a big confrontation. Led by a hook in the nose, as I wrote some time ago.
Anglosaxons and Russians have had trouble understanding each other for centuries. Rudolf Steiner in Germany said that Germanys destiny was to keep the two apart. Looking back at two world wars, I think he may have been right about that. I hate these wars, so please do not misunderstand me. I know well the suffering and my family also suffered.
When the unexpected rules, I believe Heaven intervenes. There are some old European prophecies, mainly in German, about a third world war starting in an unexpected place in Eastern Europe or the Middle East. Three “big ones” are supposed to fall and then it starts. Prophecies should be treated with caution. However, Ukraine is an unexpected place and I see great danger.
My fellow Americans (as the Oval Office address to the sheep usually goes . . . )
Dont fret over U.S. government policy and actions. Everyone else in the world knows that we lost control and responsibility over the government long ago.
We need to illuminate for the dimwitted among us, and educate the others who hide from reality.
Beyond that, we need to stay connected to good people in the world who have to fight the Hegemon. We are already prisoners.
Beyond decapitating the Elite who power the Hegemon death machine, there is no viable course of action. Beating our chests or crying for the dead will not get it done.
Sniper skills and IED’s in Aspen and Doha meeting places would be ideal, but unrealistic for most to attempt.
What we see in Novorossiya is the model of action. Slavs from all over Eurasia have come to fight to protect Russia and Russians. They’ve seen the evil, know the history and volunteer for the war. It is a holy war of morals, not religion per se. And they are holy warriors fighting the most satanic creatures to walk the Earth.
Our own military trained warriors in the U.S. have to understand that they need to volunteer to clean out the Elites who fight for Satan’s rule over the globe.
Until that happens, the Hegemon will continue to kill and kill. It is the nature of the Beast.
“It has seven heads and ten horns and came from the sea.” Revelations 13.
But it sort of sounds like NATO and the Hegemon doesn’t it?
Thank you . thank you.
I can fully understand when Russians or others on this blog cheer for the destruction of America. When one suffers at the hands of a “foe” — who claims moral superiority for their actions– revenge is not unexpected. But when I read “Americans” commenting here — cheering on the destruction of America — including ALL ITS GOOD — I take exception. Where were YOU assholes when America lost its moral footing? What in the fuck did you do to change the outcome? You are worse than the ZOG assholes who have purposely decimated this country with their mendacity and deceit. If you can’t help stop Americas moral disintegration — by living a honest and decent life here — helping your neighbor — contributing to your community — then PISS OFF. You’re an asshole carpetbagger. And God help any country that takes you in. You’ll ruin it just as you have America. Fuking diaspora parasite mentality running to the next victim.
Obama has NO MORAL authority. He has fuking destroyed any hope of moral authority during his term. He knows exactly who did this and why. But he isn’t saying. Because he doesn’t HAVE MORAL AUTHORITY to call out who did it. Period.
I don’t know what happened to MH 17. But I seriously doubt it was either Novorussians or Kiev.
I admire Putin’s qualities but I’ve no illusions about him. He’s driven by his desire to unwind Russia’s snarls and burdens of the last 100 years. He wants to strengthen Russia for the long haul. I admire that in him. I have no doubt of his ruthlessness. Shooting down a civilian plane to eliminate a threat is not out of the realm of possibilities.
The inability of America to take a moral stand — because of its OWN actions and complicity in acts of deception and wickedness — is untenable for the survival of America. Americans can’t conceive themselves as the bad-guys. Now that this reality is dawning — we are unable to even “speak” for innocent lives lost. How can ANYONE believe the likes of Victoria Nuland, Dick Cheney, Barak Obama, Hilary Clinton. For fuks sake — even Joe Biden puts his shithead son on the board of a company stealing Ukrainian assets from its people. Have we NO shame? Have we lost all sense of decency? Where is the moral steadfastness?
I have never been one to blame everything on “the Jews”. But Jews have done America no fuking favors. They have made themselves very rich — and America has NO MORAL center. There’s a connection. And LOTS of Americans see it. When we side with Zionists bombing the shit out of innocent people in Gaza we lost all claim to ANY moral authority.
Life in America is changing. Rapidly. Those who wish to see her demise — or are actively conspiring for it — are NOT my brethren. May you rot in hell.
I don’t want America destroyed. I want her REDEEMED. Any American who DOESN’T want that is NOT an American.
Some awkward questions:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/other-airlines-changed-flight-paths-at-start-of-ukraine-conflict/story
“QUESTIONS have been raised over why Malaysian Airlines had continued to fly over eastern Ukraine despite other airlines, including Qantas, shifting their flight paths some months ago…. Airlines had been warned of the dangers of being shot down and companies had been choosing routes to avoid danger zones within reach of the long-range guided missiles possessed by Russian and Ukrainian forces, according to The Times….
But Malaysia Airlines said: “The usual flight route was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organsiation. “(The) International Air Transport Association has stated that the airspace the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions.’’
A reason why some airlines continued to fly over danger zones is that a diversion would entail higher fuel costs. The second is that the the states perceive fees for flying through their air space.
It is therefore not unlikely that the Ukies would have permitted the overflight primarily to make up for the loss of money from the other airlines. And in the expectation that a tragedy would happen.
Now the result is that all airlines would divert their flights from Ukraine starving her further of cash.
In addition we have to look at the very opportune diversion of the “international community”‘s attention from the shenanigans of Israel in Gaza.
Hey, Mr. Pragma is back. Good news. Was a shame he got driven out of that place which shall remain unnamed.
Of course, he is an optimist, and sees the US as being quite weakened. We shall see. It looks to me like the Kiev forces can simply level half of the buildings in the Donbass. Then what? The Ukrainian army is likely to just get bigger and bigger, with more equipment.
As to ‘why’ Malaysian plane, rather than any other out of hundreds that fly that same corridor, I can offer a strong motivation, namely Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal. It passed judgments on a large number of US and Israeli politicians and military officers as mass murderers. And that can not go unpunished.
Regards, Spiral
To anonymous 00:00
You can go on http://www.1tv.ru and you can get the latest news from Russia and Ukraine
MH17 Shootdown Shows Chaff Was Deployed Proving Fighter Jet Was Somehow Involved
http://beforeitsnews.com/war-and-conflict/2014/07/mh17-shootdown-shows-chaff-was-deployed-proving-fighter-jet-was-somehow-involved-2453122.html
On the way to my advanced degree in Communications I studied Mass Communications and Propaganda.
An overarching Law of Communication came from Goebbels.
“He who says it first is right.”
Hitler’s Basic Principles of Communication were simple.
Avoid abstract ideas – appeal to the emotions.
Constantly repeat just a few ideas. Use stereotyped phrases.
Give only one side of the argument.
Continuously criticize your opponents.
Pick out one special “enemy” for special vilification.
Goebbels’ Principles of Propaganda developed the art into science.
Propagandists must have access to intelligence concerning events and public opinion.
Propaganda must be planned and executed by only one authority.
It must issue all the propaganda directives.
It must explain propaganda directives to important officials and maintain their morale.
It must oversee other agencies’ activities which have propaganda consequences.
The Propaganda consequences of an action must be considered in planning that action.
Propaganda must affect the enemy’s policy and actions.
By suppressing propagandistically desirable material which can provide the enemy with useful intelligence.
By openly disseminating propaganda whose contents or tone causes the enemy to draw the desired conclusions.
By goading the enemy into revealing vital information about himself.
By making no reference to a desired enemy activity when any reference would discredit that activity.
Declassified, operational information must be available to implement a propaganda campaign.
To be perceived, propaganda must evoke the interest of an audience and must be transmitted through an attention-getting medium.
Credibility alone must determine whether propaganda output should be true or false.
The purpose, content, and effectiveness of enemy propaganda; the strength and effects of an expose’; and the nature of current propaganda campaigns determine whether enemy propaganda should be ignored or refuted.
Credibility, intelligence, and the possible effects of communicating determine whether propaganda materials should be censored.
Material from enemy propaganda may be utilized in operations when it helps diminish that enemy’s prestige or lends support to the propagandist’s own objective.
Black rather than white propaganda must be employed when the latter is less credible or produces undesirable effects.
Propaganda may be facilitated by leaders with prestige.
Propaganda must be carefully timed.
The communication must reach the audience ahead of competing propaganda.
A propaganda campaign must begin at the optimum moment.
A propaganda theme must be repeated, but not beyond some point of diminishing effectiveness.
Propaganda must label events and people with distinctive phrases or slogans.
They must evoke responses which the audience previously possesses.
They must be capable of being easily learned.
They must be utilized again and again, but only in appropriate situations.
They must be boomerang-proof.
Propaganda to the home front must prevent the raising of false hopes which can be blasted by future events.
Propaganda to the home front must create an optimum anxiety level.
Propaganda must reinforce anxiety concerning the consequences of defeat.
Propaganda must diminish anxiety (other than that concerning the consequences of defeat) which is too high and cannot be reduced by people themselves.
Propaganda to the home front must diminish the impact of frustration.
Inevitable frustrations must be anticipated.
Inevitable frustrations must be placed in perspective.
Propaganda must facilitate the displacement of aggression by specifying the targets for hatred.
Propaganda cannot immediately affect strong counter-tendencies; instead it must offer some form of action or diversion, or both.
These would be principles guiding the conduct of propaganda operations.
AGS said-
I admire Putin’s qualities but I’ve no illusions about him. He’s driven by his desire to unwind Russia’s snarls and burdens of the last 100 years. He wants to strengthen Russia for the long haul. I admire that in him. I have no doubt of his ruthlessness. Shooting down a civilian plane to eliminate a threat is not out of the realm of possibilities.
Could you expand on what I bolded? What do you base this assessment of Putin on?
As a general comment to everyone, our enemy, no matter our nationality or ethnicity or religion, is the psychopaths that inevitably get into control of all nations and institutions with a few notable exceptions. But still they are ever present wherever there is power.
Together, they represent a tiny fraction in numbers of our collective populations. They control us, and can only ever control us, through divide and conquer techniques. False flags and lying propaganda campaigns are the only way they can start wars which pitch us against each other while they sit back and laughingly count their profits.
We should remember this at all times
It has only ever been the psychopaths against the rest of us. So I think it wise to reject all labels they use to divide us and see ourselves as one humanity that instinctively cares for each other.
Beforeitsnews is a well known disinformation site
Earlier MH flights took the more southerly route 300mls away from the combat area. Somebody directed the MH-17 flight over the war zone. As Mario Drummond and Nora in a previous thread said, that can only be the Kiev authorities. Therefore they are the perpetrators of the crime or are at least accessories to it. Everything else is decoration.
Comments of Igor strelkov to the events in Novorossia 18.07.2014
http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.ru/voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2998-kommentarii-igorya-strelkova-k-sobytiyam-v-novorossii-18072014.html
“20:55. Comments from Igor strelkov
[At this meeting of the security Council, have repeatedly sounded a statement that “50 tanks Russia gave” the militia. What can you say about this?]
I.I.:”Not noticed something… But even if passed – then what is 50 tanks compared to 700-800 tanks used by Ukrai? And practically full absence of own anti-tank artillery and extremely small quantities of heavy artillery as I get a “symbolic” help.”
20:50. Comments from Igor strelkov
[How did the news of the collapse of Boeing on militias]
I.I.:“first, no one admits that knocked our. Secondly, all are assured, that brought down Ukra – because they have long been any abominations expect. Third, “geopolitics” the soldiers in the trenches, not typical. Possible consequences brilliant provocation they will feel much later… if they will come, of course.”
[About what it takes to win in DND and LNR]
I.I.:”I wish I had a couple of heavy artivision and at least twenty-three tanks… With them, and with the Truth and with God, to fight wouldn’t be much easier…”
[About St. George Crosses]
I.I.:”basis – only option on CEM. Bow required. The tape is exclusively George, as it Ledger, not “miner’s cross”. May make proposals for minor details.”
20:38 communication from Strelkova
“In the area of Popasnaya nobody “rushing”, although the shelling really intense. The same thing under the Lisichansk: terrorist attacks [okropny] industrial zones and residential areas (about them, unlike the “Boeing”, nobody writes ).
In General, the situation with a broken through the fault of ukrow (it is for them – regardless of who actually knocked down) the aircraft has dramatically worsened the prospects for Russian assistance and, on the contrary, brought punishers to the desired the support of the “peacekeepers” of NATO. One-to-one repeats the picture 1992-1993, in Bosnia, when Slobodan Milosevic did not dare to support the Serbian rebels… the final of the all remember? President mysteriously-suddenly died in prison, and Serbia humiliated and cut “at the most can’t”.
20:33 Igor Strelkov
“In the direction Donetsk-West – demonstration of ukrow tanks. The onset of this is not to call – no infantry. Simultaneously applied strikes “Hail” (1 battery, 4 installation) on the Sands, Thin.
Large forces are concentrated to the South of Donetsk area pologovskiy. Just as if a storm was going to… Well…Continued concentration of armored forces and artillery of the enemy in the area of Grygorivka – in the direction of the Marinovka. Probably the attack plan to start tomorrow.
The aim is to widen the corridor to their grouping in the areas of Djakovo – Zelenopole. Our artillery bombed the area npoiifn when there were several hundred fighters 79th airmobile brigade trying to get out of the “bag”. Tanks and a lot of artillery accumulated [the enemy] a lot in the area of Elenovka.”
вот так
CDN says:
I want to enlarge Saker’s list of potential events and add a sixth possible event.
3a) Deliberate Ukrainian Attack via BUK surface to air missile
3b) Deliberate Ukrainian Attack via fighter air to air missile
and
6) Accidental collision between Ukrainian fighter aircraft and MH17
3a) is the attack mode under general discussion.
3b) is an alternate attack mode suggested by witness statements of seeing parachutes deploy.
It is possible that UAF fighters were vectored on to MH17 and that these fighters engaged in a deliberate shoot down using air to air missiles.
Evidence in favour of this is that there does not appear to be any photographic evidence of a missile contrail such as would normally be produced by a BUK missile as it climbed to altitude. This contrail should have been visible from a considerable distance from the site of the actual missile strike.
3b) is an alternate attack mode. The UAF inventory includes SU-27 air superiority fighter, MIG-29 multirole fighter and SU-24 in both bomber and recon versions. The SU-24 is a two seater.
3b) is conjecture but cannot be ruled out. Under this scenario the UAF decided to follow and track MH17 then engage it and shoot it down. Since all aircraft involved were at high altitude and in an overcast sky the missile launch may not have been observed from the ground but the chase planes would have been visible to military air control radar. Scenario 3b) does not explain the witness claim to have observed parachutes. It does explain why no missile contrail was reported.
Scenario 6 is an interesting one. The Ukies are trapped in a cauldron and seeking to find the exits. Key to this activity is situational awareness of the location of all forces on the ground. In this circumstance, faced with the loss of considerable troops and equipment, it is reasonable to expect the Ukies to attempt a recon flight.
Since the UAF appears poorly trained in all respects it is reasonable to assume their pilots are also inadequately trained. So a SU-24 recon aircraft (perhaps accompanied with a second SU-24 as an escort, is tasked to overfly the cauldron and obtain photo imagery.
The SU-24 proceeds south at altitude in overcast conditions intending to drop below the cloud base as it nears the cauldron. As it descends through the murk it makes contact with MH17. The two aircraft collide, both suffer critical damage. The SU-24 pilots eject but the crew and passengers of MH17 plummet to their death.
Evidence to support this scenario would be found in military air control logs and imagery, possible military coms intercepts and in plane wreckage somewhere in the Donbass area. There are a number of wreckage sites and it is possible that one of those is actually wreck from a fallen interceptor. It is also possible that there exist wreck locations in forest areas etc that have yet to be located.
Not sure this is necessarily true or correct scenario. It does serve to explain the observation of a second aircraft at altitude and also explains the observed parachutes. At this point it is a logical possibility that has yet to be ruled out.
Cheers!
james@wpc said…
It has only ever been the psychopaths against the rest of us. So I think it wise to reject all labels they use to divide us and see ourselves as one humanity that instinctively cares for each other.
Good advice. And the perspective on the Elites as psychopaths is correct. They brag on Wall Street of their own pathology. Books are written of the psychodynamics of these rulers of economy, military and politics.
I think it was DonbassBrussels who asked if maybe Malaysia has vexed the Empire in some way , maybe the fact that they had the audacity to put on trial W and Tone for war crimes in Iraq etc might possibly have something to do with it……..
Spot on. I was thinking exactly the same thing because they are definitely in the bullseye.
From your first paragraph:
“…no matter what, the AngloZionists will blame Russia…”
Earlier today I took a screenshot of an NBCNEWS page. A video had a short descriptive sentence which was spooky, sad and comical all at the same time. It is like watching the movie 1984 but it is real life and I cannot leave the theatre.
“Officials are trying to find out whether Ukrainian separatists or Russians fired the shot that took down Flight 17.
Published July 17th 2014, 6:55 PM”
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-plane-crash/who-fired-surface-air-missile-n158961
Maybe we should also consider a scenario in which a completely outside participant did this false-flag. That will cause everyone involved (ukrainians, russians+novorussians) to feel they are right and the other ones are evil liars.
This will make them even more bitter against each other, to the benefit of the third player.
What if the positioning software of the plane was changed to not indicate the exact flying position ? That will mislead the pilots to believe they are on the proper path, while in fact slowly diverting.
Or, what if the famous remote control that is inside every Boeing-777 was used and the pilots were simply watching how the plane doesn’t respond anymore or how every communication is turned off ???
We all believe mercenaries are operating in Ukraine now, right ? Some of them even fly planes or drones, right ?
What if there was a drone that followed the plane and delivered the airstrike ???
What if ukrainians are also clueless about what really took place. Considering how incompetent they are, some foreign military advisors can easily make useful idiots out of them.
Should we add another hypothesis involving the fearful/skillful mossad ???
Malaysia should be the first country to open and analyze the black boxes. Other nations doing that will be very suspicious, even the dutch.
The rebels on the ground should gather any piece of information and place it immediately on the web to prove their good faith in helping to solve the mystery. Otherwise they will be accused of altering the evidence (already some MSM is doing that).
I repeat again: what if all this was done secretly by a third party ? This might explain why Russia is not providing any conclusive radar or communication data ? They might be baffled as well.
There might some help from a small group from the interior ministry, which are on mossad/cia payroll. And even them maybe got the full-picture of the operation right at the end ?
AGS:
“Life in America is changing. Rapidly. Those who wish to see her demise — or are actively conspiring for it — are NOT my brethren. May you rot in hell.
I don’t want America destroyed. I want her REDEEMED. Any American who DOESN’T want that is NOT an American.”
I’m an American who wants to destroy America and create Novoamerica. The Declaration of Independence can be retained, the Constitution is defunct. We now have the internet and international human rights law. I’m an anarchist with the goal of communism. Fuck America. And I say that in the tradition of the best Americans, the outlaws, criminals, revolutionaries, Thomas Paine . . . The Black Panther Party for Self Defense . . . The Weather Underground. Everybody’s got to pursue their own thing, ‘America’ was built on genocide and slavery, is a domestic police state running on foreign wars and it’s finished. I’m a supporter of Novoamerica and Novorussia.
‘Every good Communist must learn, political power grows out of the barrel of a gun’
AGS,
“I don’t want America destroyed. I want her REDEEMED. Any American who DOESN’T want that is NOT an American.”
AMEN, Sister! Thank you for all you said. God, if we could just all work together developing strategies to regain control of our politicians and rein in the oligarchs instead of bickering and blustering and attacking each other.
james@wpc,
That was an excellent comment. Yes, psychopaths are drawn to power like moths to a flame — but in a system of representative government the constraints on their power, regardless of however well it was designed, still boil down to the same thing: the willingness of the public to get, and stay, involved in the process. That is precisely where we dropped the ball, and while we were busy doing other things, the danged ball got hidden and we don’t even know where to look.
But the answers to this dilemma are out there just waiting for us to get our act together enough to.. act together and get something done that really matters, to everyone eveyrwhere. Please folks, let’s get going on at least getting along and trying to decide what we really want, and the best means of achieving it.
The DPR militia did aquire a BUK system.
http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/11020.html
But, here is the kicker. Notice the red tips on the missiles. This designates they are training rounds with inert warheads. Red tips on missiles to designate training or test rounds is a standard practice for all ex-Soviet states including Russia and Ukraine. The DPR leaders, or anyone knowing how to use this equipment, would know this and would never try to use them to actually shoot something down.
If you look at any deployed BUK launchers, they always have white tips. These are live. I have not seen any evidence that the militia have aquired live missiles to replace the test rounds. This could be a good reason why we have not seen them deployed or talked about since they were aquired. This could also explain the conflicting reports from Kiev about the militia having them and then not having an active system.
@Larchmonter445
You are unfair to the real father of Propaganda, Edward Bernays, the nephew of Dr. Freud, who wrote in 1928 a book entitled “Propaganda”!
I stumbled upon the following @http://open.salon.com/blog/rw005g/2010/08/24/propaganda_part_i_bernays_and_goebbels
“I remember a book I read called PR: A Social History of Spin. The author discussed how the Nazi Minister of Propaganda, Dr. Josef Goebbels, was an ardent student of Mr. Bernays, despite the fact that Mr. Bernays was Jewish. Goebbels desperately wanted to meet Mr. Bernays and apparantly sent numerous books to him to be autographed. We don’t know if Mr. Bernays autographed them, but Goebbels claimed that he did. Goebbels, who had a PhD in philosophy (which is crucual in terms of understanding how he was able to understand Bernays and apply his writings in the way that he did), apparantly had an even larger library on propaganda than Mr. Bernays and had not only read all of his books, but had largely memorized a good deal of them as well. Goebbels was able to utilize Bernays’ ideas on propaganda in a manner that was the most malicious and homicidal ever seen in the 20th century: to support the Final Solution”.
Actually you find a good presentation of Stuart Ewen’s book “PR!A Social History of Spin” @PR! A Social History of Spin; Mapping out the Development of PR” (pdf).
Fwd from Canuckistan
@Larchmonter445
Thx for that excellent summary re: propaganda. It will surely help “us” in our collective quest to counter and challenge “our” yellow journalists that repeat the narrative and precanned scripts that fuel the politicos suspicious motives.
@Saker et @all, thx for your continued efforts and keep fightin’ the good fight!
“Propaganda is as propaganda does,eh?”
FYI – KIA/WIA of Ukranian Army for 9-15 july (in red circle). Poor people. http://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2014-07/1405738997_8espjwuxez0.jpg
Saker,
Listing and comparing all possibilities is good logical discipline and a useful exercise in any confusing situation. With that in mind, one possibility has not been adequately examined, an attack using interceptor aircraft. To understand why, compare the characteristics of an interceptor to a surface-to-air missile.
A manned interceptor allows a visual identification of the target. (This is particularly important in peacetime operations.) It also allows confirmation of destruction, with repeated attack, if necessary. And it allows (at altitude) the use of guns rather than guided rockets. While none of these may have been an issue in this case, there is another characteristic that makes an interceptor attack quite distinctive: it can be done at long range.
This means (in principle) that anyone within a thousand kilometers (or more) could have attacked that aircraft. Of course, this goes “down the rabbit hole” quite far, but it is a possibility, and should be considered.
Having said this, and together with everything else that has been said on this subject, one might ask, what was the purpose of this attack? Besides the propaganda value, it is a distraction from what is actually happening “on the ground”, so to speak. It allows the media, and whole societies, to focus on something of little significance while ignoring important developments. In that respect, it has been successful, even here in this forum.
Perhaps this war has a similar function, in a wider context.
I don’t believe I’ve seen this hypothesis before:
What if Kremlin insiders (Putin’s enemies) sent their own people, well versed with the Buk system, to the separatists?
They could say ” We’ re here to help.” Who would challenge them?
Putin gets blamed.
@it is reasonable to expect the Ukies to attempt a recon flight.
Could the MH-17 have been mistook for an AWACS?
“Meanwhile, NATO said Friday it was concerned by the “increasing sophistication” and number of weapons deployed by pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine, following the crash of a Malaysian Airlines jet there.
“We are concerned about the growing number of heavy weapons being operated … as well as the increasing sophistication of these systems,” a NATO official said, according to AFP.
“We have seen that Russia continues to allow mercenaries and heavy weapons to flow across its borders into Ukraine,” the official added.
Asked about what the U.S.-led military alliance knew of the circumstances of the crash of flight MH17 with the loss of nearly 300 lives, the official said he could not comment on intelligence matters.
However, the official said NATO did have two AWACS surveillance aircraft on patrol over Poland and Romania at the time of the incident.
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/world/2014/07/18/Russia-denies-downing-Malaysian-plane.html
I am very concerned about the following report from Strelkov, if it is true:
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.it/2014/07/evidence-continues-to-emerge-mh17-is.html
—–Extract—–
#9 – 11:53-12:40 – July 18, 2014 – Information Regarding the Boeing from Igor Strelkov
Igor Strelkov: According to the information received from the people who collected the corpses, a large number of the corpses are “not fresh” – these are people who died a few days ago. I cannot vouch for complete accuracy of this information – of course, we will have to wait for conclusions from forensic specialists.
– “Somebody of course must have been piloting this plane, which, to boot, would be impossible to leave. The theory that the plane was full of dead people is, of course, breathtaking; however, it does not seem to make sense.”
Igor Strelkov: First of all, not all the people in the plane were dead prior to the fall.
Second, a large quantity of medication, including blood serum and so forth, was found in the airplane, which is not characteristic of a regular airliner. It looks like there was some kind of special medical cargo on board.
—–End extract—–
The Novorussian side should consider the possibility, that the plane was deliberately loaded with contagious biological agents. Dead bodies and serum infected with something from the bio-labs of the NWO Satanists. Targeted population cull in action. From their point of view a long latency before appearance of symptoms would be ideal, so the present lack of symptoms means nothing. Remember, Ebola is loose already, so there is a backstory.
It would be wise to immediately send samples in full quarantine to Russian medical researchers. Also attempt precautionary isolation of all those who contacted the crash site and victims. I realize this will be impossible, but try. It may gain you time. Pray it’s not something airborne, that was spread on the winds from 30,000 feet high.
Document the state of the bodies, and begin public warnings that this may have been a biological attack, using the shootdown.
Are the identifiable bodies actually those on the passenger list? If yes, investigate their movements in the days prior to supposedly boarding the flight. They can’t have been both dead on a gurney somewhere, while also taking a taxi to the airport.
Also collect serial numbered parts from the wreckage and check against aircraft timed-replacement maintenance records. Is that actually Flight MH17, or is this yet another swapped plane?
Something horrific like this, is exactly what I’d expect from the US-Zionists.
TerraHertz
PS I am sorry to have to suggest this.
@Daniel Rich
“Look at what happened after Snowden spilled the beans… Zilch.”
I beg to disagree. For american tech companies it was devastating blow, especially for companies serving enterprise solutions – IBM, Cisco, Microsoft and others (Google, Facebook et al to lesser extent as ordinary people don’t bother much and even if they do, they find it difficult to change their habits). They’ve been kicked out from huge markets in many countries with big economies (China, Russia, to some extent Germany).
I also think that latest spy scandal in Germany (and subsequent limits regarding US technologies used in german security apparatus) wouldn’t happen without Snowden revelations. It would swept under the rug.
This was huge enough to have huge repercussions to american hegemony. Maybe because of sheer size of this thing changes are slow – at least from human point of view. In other words, cogs are grinding slowly but surely. Expect Snowden revelations to haunt the Hegemon for years to come.
Thanks so much saker for your assessment. Even if it was on an “old” knowledge base there is nothing comparable “out in the open” cyberspace. Professional military and even civilian flight controllers must have a much better
“vision”, but alas they are not allowd to share it. Andreas, Vienna
Larchmonter445: “It is a holy war of morals, not religion per se. And they are holy warriors fighting the most satanic creatures to walk the Earth.”
I would like to know the truth about what has happened to a civilian airliner plunging people to their deaths in a war zone in Ukraine. I realize this is a fraught situation, with territorial problems for the separatist forces, but I am disturbed that they are not letting the teams in to discover what has happened, if that is indeed the case.
Both Putin and Obama are calling for a cease fire, and as with the situation in Gaza, I would wish for that to be enforced as soon as possible, to save innocent lives – we see how easily in a war it is the innocent who suffer, and surely we must ask all sides to think of the innocent first and foremost.
I do not believe Russia is complicit in this tragedy, and I am tending to think it has been a mistake on the part of the separatists, especially after reading their descriptions of the crash scene, which are extremely troubling. They are not the people that should be examining that scene. I am sorry to have to say that, but it is true.
God be with the families of the dead – and compassionate forebearance be with both sides of the conflict, as much as they can forbear while matters are resolved.
“The death of about 300 people fully lies at the Ukrainian government’s door,” Matviyenko said. The incumbent authorities in Kiev “are like thimble-riggers – they say one thing and do a totally opposite thing.”
“Independent investigation will give all the necessary assessments and we hope it will cool off the hotheads in Kiev and will bring them back to senses and will show them that it’s impossible to continue the combat actions because a full-blown civil war will be the next phase,” she said.