Interesting news this morning: the Russian newspaper Komsomolskaia Pravda has interviewed a man who claims to have been a witness to the take-off of three aircraft one of which allegedly shot down MH17. Thanks to the incredible work done by Kazzura the full video with English subtitles is already available today. Check it out:
I will notice that there are several mutually contradictory versions circulating out there. For example, one version spoke of a Polish pilot, this one speaks of a Ukrainian (with a very Russian last name), some versions speak of one aircraft, other of two and this one even three, some speak of a SU-25, others of a MiG-29 or even a SU-27 (such as the alleged satellite photo from the student at MIT). There are several reasons for such discrepancies.
For one thing, coming up with a “testimony” is a surefire way to make money. Second, some witnesses might have seen something but not paid attention at the time and then “reconstructed” what they saw. Finally, witnesses are like the folks holding different parts of the elephant – they see only a part of the bigger picture.
I have to say that I still am basically sticking with the version I put forth on August 4th: MH-17 was shot down by a single SU-25, guided towards its target by the long-range “Kupol” radar of a BukM1 battery who engaged MH17 with a single R-60 infrared-guided air-to-air missile which it one of the engines and then who “finished off” MH17 with a volley of gunfire for its canon. Still, I have to add two things:
a) it is possible that even though only one SU-25 engaged MH17 there were another two loitering nearby to make sure to intercept MH17 because the problem with flying an SU-25 at high altitude is not that it cannot get high enough, but that at high altitude the engines of the SU-25 (which are designed for close air support or “tree hugging”) cannot provide much speed thus the flight envelope of a SU-25 at altitudes around 7’000m-10’000m is very narrow.
b) I am aware of the version that Kolomoisky had hired Ukrainians pilots to shoot down Putin’s Presidential Aircraft, but I cannot imagine why they would not have been aware that the transponder of MH17 was signaling that this was a totally different aircraft regardless of the fact that the two aircraft externally appeared similar. Unless that is explained to me I cannot endorse this version.
One thing I am 99% sure of is that MH17 was not downed by a surface-to-air missile like the BukM1 because of the highly visible column of smoke left by such a missile which lingers on for a long time (up to 30min depending one wind conditions). The launch is also very noisy. So while we have seen the recent testimony of a Ukrainian solider who confirmed that the Buk # 312 allegedly belonging to Russia was, in fact, Ukrainian, I do not believe that this Buk was actually used to shoot down MH17.
What is absolutely certain is that the US, the UK, Holland and pretty much all the parties involved are busy covering up what happened and trying to delay any possible relevant findings as much as possible. The only country which is still demanding an independent investigation is Russia which, by itself, tells me all I need to know about “who done it”.
The Saker
Saker Message:
Malaysia is also strongly and repeatedly demanding to be associated to the Dutch-confiscated enquiry.
Allegedly the Americans on the air base feared that the off-course airliner was going to attack them a la 9/11, so they shot it down.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-22/former-airline-ceo-claims-us-military-shot-down-mh370-near-diego-garcia
A second senior airline industry source has revealed his belief that there is some sort of conspiracy behind the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines flight MH370. As The Herald Sun reports, Emirates president and CEO Sir Tim Clark made world headlines in October when he revealed his doubts about the fate of the missing plane, which disappeared early in the morning of March 8 this year. Now a second senior airline industry source has voiced his doubts about the fate of the plane, with the even wilder claim that the Boeing 777 may have been shot down by US military personnel who were fearing a September 11-style attack on the US Navy base on Diego Garcia.
Totally off topic, but would it not be nice to have a poll
1) Blogger of the year?
2) Statesman of the year?
3) Favorite article of the year?
4) Any other poll topics? (suggestions)
My vote: 1) The Saker 2) pres Putin 3) http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.nl/2014_07_01_archive.html
Immediately after this testimony became known the Dutch investigators released a statement that they have evidence that a ground to air missile hit the plane, but couldn’t publish it because of “ongoing investigation” .
Putin is framed and the story is buried in western corporate media and will obviously stay that way…
Mikhas.
Voloshin, the SU-25 pilot who reportedly shot at MH17 was awarded by Poroshenko “For courage” III on July 19th…… http://fb.me/2Q3zMRKiY
riot/protest of regime in Kiev:
https://www.facebook.com/TruthfromUkraine/posts/1588422481381098
Clearly it was NATO-CIA behind this. Crystal clear.
But I don’t like to even discuss the whole issue so much. I find it preposterous that we should waste so much time and energy over the lives of Australian and Dutch civilians, while the fate of people in Odessa or the Donbass or the Ukie conscripts seem to not matter so much for some.
In any case, they will be covering it up. If they managed to keep 9/11 under wraps for so long, then the same will be done here.
Most people in the west are unfortunately retarded. I am not joking or exaggerating here. Decades of brainwashing have done a good job.
The way this story tells it, it may have been ACCIDENTAL after all.
There is reason for the sudden bringing back into service the air to air missiles…the sudden BUK exercises in the area….
THE REBELS DID HAVE AN AIR FORCE
Not an air force exactly, but they CAPTURED a SU-25 together with pilot (or maybe he defected??) on July 5 or 6 and USED IT.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWYGvx6iLe4
“made one flight in early July to bomb positions junta under Aleksandrovka and fate is still unknown. According to the “Russian Spring”, attack was raised in the air on July 13″ says Cassad.
Sadly it is possible NAF themselves may have shot it down, mistaking it for a Ukie plane (which it was unless they repainted it in St George colours).
So, if some Ukie planes go on a sortie and one gets shot down, why should the other not assume it was by the plane he can see approaching him? he’s expecting to see something small, so he thinks a big one far away is a small one closer? it’s cloudy, he just sees “plane” panics and shoots?
Saker, there is nothing in the visible debris to indicate either engine was directly hit by a missile…the starboard engine was still running until impact (numerous witnesses heard it) and the port engine only had minor damage. The cowling was damaged and fell off, and some fan blades broke, but on the whole the engine was in fair shape even after impact – dozens of pictures of it, not mangled as you’d expect if it ingested 100s of fragments.
One engine being blown up by whatever means doesn’t cause a modern plane like this to crash, either. Heatseeker missiles work on rear-engined fighters where the missile can knock out all power with one hit, also setting fire to the consequently leaking fuel. But the R-60 is proximity fuze, not heatseeker, so would hit the engine only by happenstance. Also they didn’t say the black box showed any problems with an engine (assuming they’re telling us the truth on that) which it would have had time to record if it was a two-weapon hit.
So, how would gunfire from cannon finish off a plane with a crippled engine? killing the pilots stops them calling for help or saying what happened…but doesn’t stop the auto-pilot flying the plane until fuel exhaustion, a la MH370.
If aiming to kill the plane on purpose and silently, the place to aim for is the avionics bay, just below the cockpit. That kills all communication and all controls, even if the pilots survive. In a military craft, it is enough to go for the pilot as there’s no auto-pilot.
That area DID have a fair bit of damage, ie holes in the cockpit floor had to be caused by something that went through the avionics first. That pattern nicely fits a missile approaching from in front and below. But MH17 didn’t crash from loss of control. It broke up first, with the front centre going first, the cockpit next, the rest going on another 5 miles. This means the centre got ripped out, that is NOT cannon fire. That was a missile blast, causing enough structural damage for the decompression to peel it open like a sardine tin.
So I’m not sure about cannon at all. Two small missiles could have done it. No need for a BUK to be involved at all…which you’d expect to have “seen” the distance. I can’t see Ukies being able to coordinate BUK radar and fighter jets, either, being out of practice on both.
If the pilot was kept on, not likely it was accidental. I mean, surely even there, such a public accident would lead to some disciplinary action?
Diego Garcia
Yeah, if they feared an attack> from a passenger plane> they DO have RADAR and could scramble fighters up to have a look.
The real question still is,WHY was it there? what happened to make it go silent and go off course.
If they scramble the fighters, and find a plane full of dead people, with dead pilots, with a burned hole in the side of the cockpit, and which is obviously going to crash anyway sooner or later…. shooting it down would be sort of an act of kindness. I recall one or two private jets with this problem WERE tailed by fighters, to be able to shoot them down over empty ground, if it looked like they’d crash into a populated area.
Trouble is if they admit to it, nobody will believe them (silly, they should do videos first). BUT… there is NO WRECKAGE anywhere. Where is the wreckage?
Anyone who understands Russian may be interested in this.
299th Squadron ukraine AF Su-25/MH-17 JUL 17.
Channel 5 TV documentary, russia gives out details that Ukrainian pilot, Lt. col. Dmitriy Yakacud shot it down,and was sent to UAR on the 18th July.
cheers.
Has anyone explained the decayed human carcasses which were discovered by First Responders among the wreckage??? Has anyone provided serial numbers of pieces of wreckage which positively identify whether it was MH370 or MH17 which crashed???
Why has Russia waited so long to expose this “False Flag” attack???
The MH17 COVER-UP smells a lot like the 911 COVER-UP (still in progress)!
@ Anonymous who said…
Immediately after this testimony became known the Dutch investigators released a statement that they have evidence that a ground to air missile hit the plane, but couldn’t publish it because of “ongoing investigation” .
please PLEASE put links for this kind of information. It wastes so much time to hunt them down.
so here it is
http://www.nltimes.nl/2014/12/23/new-mh17-photos-suggest-surface-air-missile-launch-separatists/
Conveniently not publishing the images because they’re under investigation. But the description (white plume going up from horizon) sounds familiar. So I look up the “expert” they try to make out they just spoke to and find that
THIS site was not shy to publish one photo (and the black plume one is visible on the guy’s computer
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/hoe-onderzocht-rtl-nieuws-de-nieuwe-mh17-fotos
story from November but
SURPRISE SURPRISE
the picture is the same “rocket plume” that’s been around since JULY 18.
So the Dutch main stream media smear/cover response to new information is…. go right back to DAY TWO THEORIES.
@ JOAT do you have a link to your video????
No, okay, don’t worry, that is last week’s revelations, or 2-3 weeks now. That TV documentary was a bit strange, seeing as it ended up with “Kolomoisky ordered it to shoot down Putin’s plane” for no sensible motive given. It seemed an attempt at putting together lots of known bits and pieces. The supposed pilot’s name was new, his being in another country convenient.
What it looks like to me is, someone DOES KNOW, and a lot of guesses are starting to come out. All from Russia.
This is RUSSIA saying WE KNOW
The first hints, the very first hints from the fake Spanish Carlos TC, were also from Russia…. either Russia or another “line of influence” in the Ukrainian government, where at the time there were 2 lots of military (real and SBU) at odds about most things. It could have been one lot warning the other that they knew or suspected. But equally could have been Russia hinting the same warning. Because of all the nonsense, and multiplication of theories, whoever did it may not have heeded the warning. This all coming up AGAIN with more and more detail each time is interesting timing.
Russia has taken it seriously and has obtained details of the witness from the TV station (maybe they sent him there first)
http://rt.com/news/216871-ukraine-military-mh17-report/
“anonymous”
As Perry Mason always said, “What are the motives… who stands to benefit from the crime?
The clues are many, but, often so many clues are offered, that they are obviously placed there to misdirect peoples’ attention from the criminal act, itself.
As with the Coup D’etat in Dallas, on November 22, 1963, and the destruction of the Twin Towers in the Big Apple, the subsequent trail of events (aftershocks) are often ignored.
The take over of the American Republic by the Military Financial Complex, alloowed an unconstitutional undeclared imperialist War against Vietnam that left 2 million (mostly civilians) dead. In 1965, 1 million Indonesians were slaughtered by the newly empowered (over John Kennedy’s dead body), American Oligarchs.
These facts of horrific butchery are not disputable. They reveal the importance of all that happened before. The checks and balances of the Republic were removed, and the Dogs of War were let loose.
The destruction of the Twin Towers, with the death of 3000 civilians, opened the door for the Oligarchs to butcher Afghanis, Iraquis, Libyans, Somalis, Yemenis, Sudanese, and Syrians. The combined civilian deaths resulting from these imperialist crimes is in excess of 1 million.
The disappearance/destruction of both Malaysian Airliners is highly suggestive of more False Flag terror from the American/Anglo/Zionist Oligarchs. Who the hell else benefits from all this butchery?
The mort American Republic has removed a constitutional safeguard against unbriled American imperialism, which is leading to serious global consequences.
Within America, only a few, such as the Pauls, Kucinich, and Nader, have warned against the militarization of society, (including that of the Police Forces). Just in case the American people are able to shake off generations of exceptionalist brainwashing, a heavily armed and fascized millions strong local Police Forces are waiting to enter into action. The Gulag is in place, and their leashes are being removed as we speak.
Who shot down the MH17 is not as important as who benefits from its being shot down. The imperialist owned Warren Commision and their media have already announced their verdict. Oswald did it. He was a Russian, he shot down the airliner, killed Kennedy, and officer Tippit. He fired on the people in Maidan Square, and he is insensitive on gay Rights.
Fortunately, along with Perry Mason, we know the truth. The Last Will and Testament of the victims leave everything of value to the Rothschilds, Duponts, Rockefellers, Kochs, and the rest of the Oligarchs. After the Bailout what could be more clear? But the Jury is misinformed and intimidated, and except for the Novorossiyan Partisans, unarmed.
Peter J. Antonsen
For the Democratic Republic!
IMAGINE
The decayed corpses and passports etc found amongst the wreckage are easily explained.
Every flight or sailing has a flight or ship manifest,lodged before departure.
Cadavers are routinely transported to the deceased’s homeland along with documents such as death certificates and passports.
The window configuration on MH17 was different to MH370.
Before the WEB was sanitized I saw pictures taken by local villagers minutes after the crash,some of young women near broken seats.
They and the others I saw had white skin Not green and it was a sad thing to see!.
cheers.
An interesting article from Washington’s blog:
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/12/another-mh17-cover-hiding-key-autopsy.html
@ GODSEND
puhleese…
try to tell the difference between real and mistaken, real and totally fake, real and absolutely silly. Please.
a) what we have about “long dead” bodies comes to us translated, just a few words, no context
b) the people reporting it are not experts, any recently dead bodies they’ve bee seeing were freshly ripped apart by shells, blood spattered everywhere
c) what they got at the crash site was bodies cooked (by the missile blast) or frozen (by the decompression) and several minutes dead…so they would NOT have much blood coming out where they were freshly injured by the fall….but they looked quite swollen (you can still find old videos with the bodies showing or just take my word for it)
d) yes the plane had been positively identified, several parts had the body number written on them.
e) all the passengers (except a few not found yet) were identified as being the people who got onto MH17 a few hours before
Russia is a big important serious country. It can’t go around subscribing to every conspiracy theory like we have the luxury of doing. They knows what they knows from their radars, which does NOT tell enough detail to prove who did it. They have tried to shows it could have been,and probably was, someone else. But the world attitude was “you’re just saying that because YOU did it and want to get out of it”.
Then, even if their investigations have shown EXACTLY, the smart thing is to wait for the best time to use that knowledge. Russia is under serious attack on several fronts right now. This knowledge,if they have enough to be proof, is something they can blackmail someone with first, to get concessions that might save thousands of lives. But they have to be 100% certain first.
This is delayed because someone needs to doctor evidence to support a narrative. We’ve seen this before.
After the lying, pedal to the metal open destructiveness of the Bush II Regime, Obama Hussein is quite the dangerous mudshark flyweight who dances in and out of the shadows so as not to alienate his supporters while he quietly wreak havoc in the same vein as his predecessor.
What happens when you keep pouring empty suits into positions of “statesman” is, you get underwhelming yet overrated mental midgets in WAY over their heads who run the nation and subsequently attempt to run the world like a corporate boardroom.
Groupthink doesn’t guarantee results.
USans are desperate for a leader who represents them, and holding on to the coattails of this glorified Wall St. errand boy even though he is 1000% WRONG re: the Ukraine and Russia is a foolish pursuit.
Farflungstar
Zio Occupied AmeriKa
I have read someone altered the performance specs. on wikipedia for the SU25 aircraft. The flight plan for MH17 was also altered to pass over the war zone.
These two facts indicate this was no accident, even if the pilot believed it was and in my opinion point strongly towards a false flag operation by the CIA.
” trying to delay any possible relevant findings as much as possible.”
Delay can be very useful – for example the dentist’s dilemma.
The patient was doing to the dentist’s wife what the cake lady wants to do to the whole EU.
The patient had abscesses and the dentist did nothing.
As for cakes, it is generally better to allow time so they can rise.
Perhaps those with more “PR” experience will be appalled by such approaches instead of enjoying the silence.
Now this looks rather interesting.
Someone in Ukraine is trying to steal S300 and modern latest BUK parts from Russia…. wonder what for? and it’s someone associated with the second-last time Ukrainians shot down a civilian plane.
http://tass.ru/en/russia/768631
what are they up to? what do they want to shoot with a definitely Russian missile system? because if they’re just worried about Russian aircraft if there’s a war, surely NATO is giving them NATO gear for protection?
That captain if still alive could be a dead man soon, now that he has been “outed”. Dead man tell no tales!
Dear Saker, your assertion that
“the only country which is still demanding an independent investigation is Russia”
isn’t quite correct.
Since December 5, Malaysia is a full and equal member of the MH17 investigation team.
It is a neutral country that has more proved its independence of Washington’s policies. This implies that chances of laying all the blame on separatists tend to zero.
My guess is that the appearance of “witness Alexander” is a game-changing attempt to represent a premeditated crime as an inadvertent accident, where a key element is Voloshin’s words ‘ne tot samolet’ (wrong aircraft).
Let’s hope this gambit will fail.
“Then, even if their investigations have shown EXACTLY, the smart thing is to wait for the best time to use that knowledge. Russia is under serious attack on several fronts right now. This knowledge,if they have enough to be proof, is something they can blackmail someone with first, to get concessions that might save thousands of lives. But they have to be 100% certain first.”
Russia is not the only party which KNOWS the MH17 and 911 (and 311) TRUTH! MANY KNOW the MH17 and 911 and 311 TRUTH – but ONLY Russia has the global visibility and credibility to make it stick! [and COLLAPSE the entire Western “House of Cards” (aka LIES)!]
Just about NOW is a good time for Putin to play those trump cards!
According to a Stratfor report i found on reddit (but don’t find the exact url right now), the 299th squadron has the ukrainian upgraded jetfighters (the ones with the higher service ceiling). There is a interview with eye witnesses on youtube where a guy says that one fighter came in low after the crash preumably taking pics or verifying and he saw it labeled ’08’ and claimed it was from the 299th. If you google the 299th you will find pictures of the squadron including the infamous 08. Also there are reports on bomb raids etc of the 299th and the person named in this interview is part of it. Its starts to get real certain…
Dear Saker, your assertion that
“the only country which is still demanding an independent investigation is Russia”
isn’t quite correct.
Since December 5, Malaysia is a full and equal member of the MH17 investigation team.
It is a neutral country that has more than once proved its independence of Washington’s policies. This implies that the chances of laying the blame on separatists are minimal now.
My guess is that the appearance of “witness Alexander” is a game-changing attempt to represent a premeditated crime as an inadvertent accident. The key element here is Voloshin’s words “cited” by “Alexander”: ‘ne tot samolet’ (wrong airplane).
Let’s hope this gambit will fail.
Anna-News found Captain Voloshin pretty fast
http://anna-news.info/node/26950
So this anonymous person shows up out of nowhere, long after the incident took place and has been discussed endlessly in the media. He puts forward his own conspiracy theory of what he thinks happened. Backs his claim up with evidence which even the general staff that planned the execution of this crime (if that is what indeed happened) could not have been privy to: namely the detailed description of how the perpetrators prepared, executed, and post execution briefing of the mission. And he obtained all these secret details by somehow being a fly on the wall at every stage of this tragedy. One person in too many places simultaneously to be a credible witness to this crime in my opinion. He could just as easily have heard of or read his version of events in the media, and put his own theory together based on his narrow understanding of what he thinks is happening. What’s the difference between his theory and everyone else in the blogosphere’s opinion of MH17, including this blog. Why is he suddenly more credible than the next conspiracy theorist? Surely being Ukrainian isn’t enough to exempt him from proving his theory with credible evidence anymore than the next conspiracy theorist. In the chaos of war, it is usually the participants on the ground that possess the most limited view/ perspective of the events unfolding around them. Based on that alone, I’ll wager his theory is less credible than internet bloggers who at least have the luxury of researching a broader base of information than the participant on the ground, which this fellow claims to be. You simply cannot have the generals perspective as well as the common soldiers’ simultaneously. Claiming both only undermine your credibility. We are all subject to the same laws of logic concerning the provision of evidence. Even if we accept that he was present at the preparation stage with the planes being armed etc, how could he also be present when the execution occurred miles away and thousands of feet above ground to say definitively which plane shot whom and with what rocket. And to crown it all, he even debriefs the executioner and gets him to basically confess his crime. Too much coincidences and miracles to pass the bar of common sense for me. And it’s even more baffling to see serious people give this fable any credence. C’mon Saker, a little objective screening before posting these smoking gun proofs, at least in the interest of your own credibility
For those interested, here’s the interview transcript:
Meet The Pilot Who Shot Down Malaysian Boeing MH-17 – Vladislav Voloshin: “The Plane Was In the Wrong Place at the Wrong Time”
LINK> http://fortruss.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/meet-pilot-who-shot-down-malysian.html
.
-TL2Q
“it was the wrong plane…wrong time and place”…could this mean Putin’s plane was the original target, as the fighter plane cannot fly? as high as MH17 so could not distinguish clearly the red white blue markings Malaysian airlines? Would it be easy for a controller to say shoot down the blue white red plane as soon as you see that colouring, otherwise the pilot of MH17 would surely be on the radio telling everyone they were being followed/persued by a jet fighter? But I find this report the most credible so far, plausible(rather than the “buk” report couple weeks ago), but so “amazing/synchronistic” it was the second Malaysian airline plane, but if the above words are true then this airline was not being deliberately targeted? Which is even more weird….unless I really believe the total conspiracy, a second Malaysian plane was deliberately diverted and targeted.
re anna news finding pilot-anna-news is currently being cyber attacked 22.00 Uk time my bright stepson has just confirmed.
22.00 uk time-re anna -news finding pilot-stepson confirms http://www.anna-news is currently being cyber attacked-sorry if double posting
===================================================== As a rule of thumb, one can be sure that if the anglos West is hostile to one, then he is probably good for his country. One cannot be good for Russia and the West at the same time.
The Russians should only start worrying when the West starts pouring praise and awards on president Putin. But so far so good! BRAVO VLADIMIR PUTIN!!!
it’s not surprising that people like you would rather have a return to the old 1990’s OSCE endorsed “elections” under which people apparently “voted” for Yeltsin despite the fact that the mafia were terrorising everybody in the country, the country was being looted by the “democracy & freedom fighters” from the USA and EU, Yeltsin had screwed up the Chechen insurrection etc. Yet… despite all this Al Gore still said that “Yeltsin was the best option for democracy”.
Russians had a taste of Luke Harding / Guardian / Economist / Edward Lucas “values” in the 1990’s when Russia was “democratically” looted and nearly steered into the Abyss by Yeltsin and his “democratic” Zionazi Circle such Borizovsky and “business leaders” like Khodorkovsky, heavily supported by the US and EU Governments.
In the 1990’s (under the rule of the heroes of Luke Harding & the Guardian) Russian’s lives were hell on earth faced with shortages, bankruptcy, anarchy, gangsterism, complete break downs in law and order, salaries being unpaid, mayhem on the borders and massive theft from the State on an Industrial Scale.
It’s well documented on the Internet how the 1990’s were “dark times” in Russia, what kind of misery ordinary peoples lives were being made by the oligarchs and their Western Liberal partners.
Only since the 2000’s there’s been a slow return to “normality” even though many problems remain to be resolved. Which country is perfect?
“Allegedly the Americans on the air base feared that the off-course airliner was going to attack them a la 9/11, so they shot it down.”
That Zero Hedge article paints these accusations about an American shootdown of MH370as “wild claims.”
But there is significant evidence suggesting that America did exactly did the same with respect to another commercial airliner, TWA800, which many believe was shot down by the US Navy in 1999.
Then there’s that little thing called 9-11, which many people was an inside job staged by the American regime and its allies.
http://flight800doc.com/
An interesting hypothesis on the strategic military purpose for the MH17 shootdown by Ukraine:
http://quemadoinstitute.wordpress.com/2014/12/22/novorossiya-rolling-analysis-dec-16-22/
Scroll down to the topic “Vineyard of the Saker”, where the hypothesis is explained.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/12/19/ruble-takedown-exposes-cracks-in-putins-defense/
Ruble Takedown Exposes Cracks in Putin’s Defense
by MIKE WHITNEY
“Like we said, Putin might be a great chess player, but in his battle with the US, he’s getting his clock cleaned. So far, he’s been no match for the maniacal focus and relentless savagery of the Washington powerbrokers. Yes, he’s formed critical alliances across Asia and the world. He’s also created competing institutions (like the BRICS bank) that could break the imperial grip on global finance. And, he’s also expounded a vision of a new world in which “one center of power” does not dictate the rules to everyone else. That’s all great, but he’s losing the war, and that’s what counts. Washington doesn’t care about peoples’ dreams or aspirations. What they care about is ruling the world with an iron fist, which is precisely what they intend to do for the next century or so unless someone stops them. Putin’s actions, however admirable, have not yet changed that basic dynamic. In fact, this latest debacle (authored by the RCB) is a severe setback for the country and could impact Russia’s ability to defend itself against US-NATO aggression.
So what does Putin need to do to reverse the current trend?
The first order of business should be a fundamental change in approach followed by a quick switch from defense to offense. There should be no doubt by now, that Washington is going for the jugular. The attack on the ruble provides clear evidence that the US will not be satisfied until Russia has been decimated and reduced to “a permanent state of colonial dependency.” (Chomsky) The United States has launched a full-blown economic war on Russia and yet the Kremlin is still acting like Washington’s punching bag. You can’t win a war like that. You have to take the initiative; take chances, be bold, think outside the box.”
@ Vod Kanockers said…
Anna-News found Captain Voloshin pretty fast
http://anna-news.info/node/26950
that is just the same story, nothing new in it at all.
@MikeJ
There is nothing in the story someone working there would not know. Ground crew, hangar crew, munitions handler…they would see everything and talk about it all day. How many missions, what they went to bomb, the weapons used (all mounted under the wings, clearly visible).
The only bit where he is assuming a reason is
“Yes. Knowing this pilot a little bit… (quite possibly, when the other two airplanes were shot down in front of him), he just had a frightened reaction, inadequate. Could out of fright or in revenge launch the missiles into a Boeing. Maybe he took it for some other combat aircraft.”
Reason for not coming forward? well he’d be silly to, while still working there, don’t you think? we don’t know how long he’s been in Russia now. If I were him I’d move my whole family out as well, before going public with stuff like this.
It is not impossible the Russian authorities have already interviewed him, They say they WILL but that may be a charade, and the interview another attempt at “leaking” information. The “Spanish ATC” may have bee the first attempt at suggesting Ukrainian planes nearby, which they then confirmed with the radar screen images.
Spanish ATC was July 18; Ukrainian SBU already proposed “Aeroflot” on July 17, while Obama screamed “Separatists with Russian help” within an hour of the crash; “Putin’s plane” I think took a week to materialise.. All the main theories have been on the table from the first few days. None of the proofs are totally convincing, but there are degrees to that.
@Andrei saying
“attempt to represent a premeditated crime as an inadvertent accident, where a key element is Voloshin’s words ‘ne tot samolet’ (wrong aircraft)”
“It was the wrong plane” cannot be taken to mean “ooops it wasn’t Putin’s” ‘ in the context it is “was mistaken one to shoot, ie wasn’t one attacking me”. Don’t forget the rebels DID have one fighter plane at that time.
If it was deliberate this is the cover story he gives. A “fog of war” story the other pilots would accept. The witness doesn’t clam to know this or whether he was talked to by the commander or stuff like that, just says he remained on duty. But THAT fact, that he was not disciplined, makes it look more deliberate than accident. That he got a Bravery medal 2 days later also doesn’t look like it was a sad accident.
Why not remove him anyway? he might blab where he goes. Better to get his short-term silence with a nice medal. Then hope he’s next to be shot out of the sky by the rebels, who WERE shooting two SU-25s a week.
@ Jonathan Jarvis
use this http://translate.yandex.com/translate and put the anna.news link into that; it will access and translate it that way (apparently they trust yandex).
NO NO NO on Putin’s plane. That is nonsense. Absolutely no benefit to anyone to shoot down Putin. (And if someone wanted to, they’d make 1000% sure they got the right plane and the shooter didn’t survive).
“…a second Malaysian plane was deliberately diverted and targeted….” NOW you’re thinking. For a simple false flag (make Russia look bad etc) any airline would do, although ideally one from a distant country that won’t attack over it.
Malaysian Airlines was partly Government owned, and national flagship airline.
In 2007 Malaysia set up a War Crimes Commission, In November 2011 the tribunal exercised self declared “universal jurisdiction”, and tried in absentia former US President George W. Bush and former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, It convicted both for “crimes against peace” because of what the tribunal concluded was the unlawful invasion of Iraq.
Now if you are the exceptional nation that can do anything, and someone has the cheek to do something like this? what might be a good way to smack them down? wreck the national carrier maybe…..
Having heaps of Dutch on board? off hand I can’t recall if the Netherlands offended anyone in the previous 2 or 3 years.
Doubtless the first of many smoking guns clearly pointing to Ukrainian involvement in the downing of MH17.
Doubtless the US/West will try to bury this new revelation.
“…”Allegedly the Americans on the air base feared that the off-course airliner was going to attack them a la 9/11, so they shot it down.”…”
This is clearly silly. They’d see it from a long way off and could scramble up to check. If they found it a ghost flight, everyone dead, they might shoot it down to finish it off, BUT there would be wreckage, and there isn’t any.
The one time the used the excuse of “we thought it was going to attack us” was USS Vincennes shooting down Iran Air 655 in 1988…obvious lie, they were itching to make trouble.
TWA800 they were not afraid of. They were just conducting navy missile exercises very close nearby…and, as is well known, using civilian aircraft for the RADAR practice is common in many/all militaries. The some idiot went and pushed the button. The CIA and FBI had to come in and cover it up. Their very presence in a routine air crash investigation already says COVER UP, and that already says there IS something to cover.
This is sort of how Ukraine shot down a Siberian Airlines pane in 2001… they aimed at something else, missed by enough that the S 200 missile kept going many miles further until it found this innocent plane with 78 on board. Denied it for weeks, ended up paying compensation.
RUSSIA has never shot down a civilian plane. The USSR did — Korean 902 in l978 (it landed and most on board survived) and Korean 007 in 1983 killing all 269 on board. Both were well inside Soviet airspace at times of high US reconnaissance activity and failed to answerer or get out when ordered.
I have two comments to make:
1.The Dutch report they good the intelligence (oxymoron) from the US.And the US says they have no satellite images of the shootdown.The odds on that,as many people have said are very slim.So if they claim that now.It would appear it was the Ukrainians and they don’t want to admit it.
2.I saw a CNN report on Sony going to release “The Interview”,the movie about the CIA plotting the murder of the North Korean leader.And what would be North Korea’s reaction to that.All of that was trash anyway.But the importance of the Western reporting of this is not about “hackers,Korean reaction,etc”.But that in the US (and West in general) its acceptable to plot the murder of foreign leaders.They think that’s acceptable policy,nothing wrong with it.That thinking is horrendous.And that no one even says that,is even more horrendous.There really needs to be severe retribution for this type of a policy.
Uncle Bob
@Kat Kan
…And than Ukraine republished those Dutch news, without a word on another news of course.
http://uatoday.tv/geopolitics/dutch-media-reports-photo-evidence-that-mh17-was-shot-by-surface-to-air-missile-399188.html
The difference with day 1 is that it was first published in Ukraine, and only later in the Western media. So clearly, great progress has been now achieved!
I remember that one E Ukrainian resident reported that he saw two parachutes at the time of the crash. One he said held something unmoving and the other appeared to hold a man.
He was the only witness I heard of who mentioned the parachutes. I suppose they open lower down & could therefore be visible to fewer people? Certainly if the chute opened higher the person wd die of hypoxia. Also a military chute wd obviously be visible from the ground for the shortest possible time.
Saker,
I’m only pointing out that the evidence provided by this fellow in support of his claim is based solely on his word, and requires his audience to willingly suspend disbelief in order to give it credence. The distance between the occurrence of the crime and his coming forward is hard to explain away with just the “fear of retribution” argument. He’s brave enough to state clearly that he has been against Kiev since the beginning and blames them for the war etc, he basically endorses Russia’s position and is on a Russian TV show. Yet no one from the Russian intelligence apparatus has contacted him. If they have, why pretend as if they haven’t? You wouldn’t want a questionable witness like this guy giving evidence against you at any fair trial, and no sane court of law will permit him either. It’s like a snitch turning state evidence incognito, against his associates to save his own skin, he is too compromised to be taken at his word alone. How do those predisposed to believe him even know who he is, his identity is obscured entirely, he could be Poroshenko’s cousin or Putin’s nephew for all the audience knows. How can you take a phantom’s word at face value? If Russia has serious evidence to implicate Kiev why not simply come out and present it, why take this approach where only those already predisposed will accept at face value what’s being presented. It doesn’t move the ball forward and seems an unnecessary charade.
Appreciate your response though, keep up the good work
@Kat Kan
I also think that theory is wide, but perhaps the pilot is told that, after all, it is not necessary to tell a pawn the truth…
Absolutely no benefit to kill Putin? Think about what happened after Stalin died “mysteriously”, which is another word for “killed by some mysterious forces”
Imagine after Putin died… Medvedev stood on, together with the other Atlantis Integrationists… and defamed Putin…
And after Medvedev stood, someone similar to Yeltsin, with the help of “mysterious forces”, won the elections…
End of story, I guess i will bleach my skin white and pretend to be American.
The reason that Malaysia was excluded from the investigation for so long is that she refused to go along with the other 3 or 4 countries which agreed among themselves that the results of the investigation wd not be released if any one of them desired to withhold the info.
The source on this story was a reporter who said he got it directly from a high-level Ukrainian whom he named and who gave him the story openly. I’ve forgotten which minister it was. This was the original release of this story, fully two-three weeks before it was generally carried & it included the fact that Malaysia wd be denied access to the investigation because she refused the censorship.
KAT KAN, Why do you say that Carlos the air traffic controller is fake? You know he was interviewed by globalresearch.ca, right?
Also one of the Saker community was famiiar w his blog before the crash.
He seemed totally credible to me. If you know of a reason that he isn’t, please tell me. Thanks.
I have been guessing that the witness is no longer in Ukraine, but is still hiding his identity as an additional layer of protection– or to protect friends still in Ukraine.
Does anyone know? Is he now outside of Ukraine?
KAT KAN, Involvement of the Netherlands cuz they are deep into the NWO conspiracy, Bilderbergers, etc Therefore they are reliable at covering up.
@ Penelope
Nobody was able to produce a confirmation that “Carlos” was indeed located at Kiev Borisopol Airport at the time of the crash, or even was in Ukraine at all, see below. If you know otherwise, please post links
———–
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2014/07/18/malaysia-plane-shot-down-by-ukraine-claims-mysterious-spanish-air-traffic/
“
But there are serious questions about Carlos’ identity.
The Spain Report, an English-language online newspaper based in that country, contacted the Spanish embassy in Kiev asking about Carlos and was told, “We have no knowledge of ‘Carlos’ having been in Ukraine. There is no record of his passing through the Consulate, and no one from the (relatively small) Spanish colony knows him.”
The statement went on to say that all of the air traffic controllers at the airport where he claimed to work “are Ukranian, and that in any case they have never employed any Spaniard for that or any other task [at the airport].”
Anonymous said…23 December, 2014 17:09 Peter J. Antonsen
“
As Perry Mason always said, “What are the motives… who stands to benefit from the crime?”
Perry Mason was a fictional character created by Earl Stanley Garner.
Perry Mason didn’t live so it is unlikely he “said” anything.
On your notion of cui bono – “who stands to benefit from the crime”
this is an invitation to obfuscation since lateral strategists always seek to benefit irrespective of initiation – as perhaps has become clearer from “developments”.
One of the ways to benefit is to allow the opponent to fill silence with noise, then to facilitate opportunities for them to amplify and embroider on this noise.
As to “motive” I note that you use the singular instead of the plural “motives” and also perhaps infer single agency, thereby limiting perception and contributing to noise.
I remember reading that upon visiting the MH17 crash site, Strelkov commented that the bodies seemed to be of people ‘long dead’ and more importantly, that there was no blood to be seen except for the cockpit.
This would be consistent with machine gun/cannon fire and the bullet holes.
Hence, is the cockpit drenched in blood? This should be easy to ascertain…
More on this story today;
Investigators have evidence of Ukrainian warplane involvement in Malaysian MH17 crash — IC
MOSCOW, December 24. /TASS/. Investigators have received the evidence of a Ukrainian warplane involvement in the crash of the Malaysian passenger Boeing (Flight MH17) over eastern Ukraine, spokesman for the Russian Investigative Committee (IC) Vladimir Markin told TASS on Wednesday […]
According to him, he “personally saw as Voloshin’s fighter ahead of the sortie was loaded with the R-60 type air-to-air missiles with which the Su-25 fighters were not normally loaded for their sorties.” “The witness said there was no need to equip the fighters with such missiles, as the people’s militia (in the south-east of Ukraine) are not armed with aircraft,” Markin said.
“The facts and information cited by the witness without confusion convinced the investigators of the truth of his testimony and a polygraph test confirmed this. This testimony is very significant for the investigation, and most importantly, it matches the data the investigators got from other sources and confirms the fact of the Su-25 flight during the Boeing crash,” Markin said.
He added that “as the witness may be in danger, the investigation is considering the issue of offering him state protection under the witness protection program.” […]
LINK> http://itar-tass.com/en/world/768911
.
-TL2Q
Could the pilot’s statement of “Wrong plane” refer to the other fighter, which it also shot down?
Do you recall that the panel below the pilot seat of MH17 appeared to have both entry and exit holes? Does this mean that it was shot at from both sides, thus making a greater likelihood that one fighter pilot might have shot down the other? Does anyone know if the corresponding panel for the opposite side of the plane was found/photographed?
Don’t forget the report of resident that he saw 2 chutes– one bearing an unmoving object and the other a man. I saw tw airings of this witness report by an older man.
The comment, “wrong plane” would seem to infer that there was a RIGHT plane. Was there any plane at all in this war which would have been an “acceptable” target?
Finally, some reports have indicated that the plane was also attacked with a cannon (perhaps first to silence the pilots). Could the presence of the cannon on the fighter be excused as intended to hit ground targets? Or is a cannon strictly used for air-to air?
Roda, the acting head of Donbass ( a Russian whose name I’ve forgotten) volunteered that the cockpit was drenched in blood. His comment occurred at the press conference in answer to a question about bloodless, rotting bodies.
Strelkov gave no indication of having examined these bodies himself, but reported that several of the others who had handled the bodies had reported it to him.
Stavros H said, “But I don’t like to even discuss the whole issue so much. I find it preposterous that we should waste so much time and energy over the lives of Australian and Dutch civilians, while the fate of people in Odessa or the Donbass or the Ukie conscripts seem to not matter so much for some.”
Stavros, the casualty that we want here is media credibility. Also the credibility of Ukraine and expecially of the US. It’s obvious to many people that the US knows what happened, had a satellite pass over simultaneously, etc.
If US lies about a concrete event can be unmasked it will be very powerful.
Before I found the The Saker’s site I came across a file which is supposed to be hacked tanscript of Kolomoisky’s people re the handling of the MH17 crash in the media & includes their conversation about the cause of the crash.
Since I came to the Saker site after this surfaced I don’t know if you all have already seen this or if it’s been debunked, etc.
Accordingly, I show below only the introduction to the 3 hacked conversations.
This file appeared on http://www.ntv.ru
& is no longer there. The intro:
The hacker group “KiberBerkut” hacked personal correspondence of the Ukrainian officials regarding downed July 17 Malaysian “Boeing”. In the correspondence of two lieutenants of the oligarch and part time governor Kolomoisky, as well as the new defence minister of Ukraine Valery Geletey actively discussing Ukrainian fascist AF actions and how the local media should present the circumstances of the crash. Earlier conversations inderectly referring to the doctor who refused to remove organs from wounded Ukrainian National Guard soldiers in one of the hospitals.
If, perchance The Saker shd be interested in this file, I cd e-mail it. It’s in Russian, translated to English para by para.
-Ingrid-
Penelope is this what you mean? http://themillenniumreport.com/2014/08/hackers-learned-who-shot-down-boeing-in-ukraine/
Today from Mr. Lavrov;
Russian FM: US, Ukraine will have to answer questions about MH17 crash
“He was speaking in an evening talk-show on the Rossiya-1 television news channel on Thursday.
“”We still have no replies to the questions: Where are the data from the US satellites that monitored the area on that day? Where are the data from US planes that were flying over that area? Where are the testimonies by Dnipropetrovsk air traffic controllers who were responsible for keeping track of flights in that part of Ukraine’s airspace? We have long requested a logbook of all sorties Ukrainian combat planes based on that area flew on that day,” Lavrov said, adding that nothing had been done.
“We only hear accusations that Russia is to blame for everything, that the militias are to blame for everything, and that our questions are being asked for the sole purpose of misleading the investigation,” Lavrov said.
He is certain, though, that truth will make its way to the surface in the long run.
“It is impossible to pretend ignorant on and on when very specific questions are asked again and again. We have opened a criminal case. It will be impossible to ignore this process. The questions will have to be answered,” he said.
LINK> http://itar-tass.com/en/world/769260
I do not want to pretend that I am samrter than all of you, and know exactly who downed MH-17, but this is what I know for sure:
– DNR had Strela-10 (SA-13 Gopher) vehicle-mounted SAM system, and 9K33 Osa (SA-8 Gecko), both of which are documented, but have trouble reaching aircraft flying at 10’000 m.
– There is no credible evidence the DNR hadoperational Buk (SA-11 Gadfly). The alleged Buks were filmed being carried by a truck, meaning that they were in no condition to move by themselves (which they normally can, at up to 65 km/h), let alone shoot missiles.
– Su-25 has no problem reaching 10’000m. In tests it has reached more than 14’000 m. The reason its ceiling is given as 5’000-7’000 m is that it was designed as a “Shturmovik”, and usually flew sorties over Afghanistan in less than 100m above Ground, so nobody cared how high it could fly, and it therefore does not have a pressurized cabin, or oxygen supply for the pilot for a prolonged time.
Whether it was long-range SAM, or aircraft: the Ukraine had both, while Novorussia had neither, so who was it, is not that difficult a question. It was no “flase flag” operation, thouh: if the colour of the flag of your enemy clearly does not fit.
Was it an attempt to shoot down Putins Plane? not really, as he did not even fly over the territory of the Ukraine. But was the perpetrator told that there is “Chuylo” sitting in the plane? I have no doubt about that.
Yes, anonymous & Ingrid, that’s the file I meant. Thanks for responding. My original link no longer works.
Any idea whether this is legit? I notice it talks about stealing peoples’ organs before any bodies were found with missing organs.
Does anyone know if Novorossiya shot down the other two fighters? I’m sure if anyone shot down a fighter at that time that this is known among themselves.
Really, maybe the fighters were so masterfully deployed that they shot each other down?
It was obvious that the Russians would strike at a moment of their choice to inflict the most damage. As M.K. Bhadrakumar noticed: “just when it seemed that the international investigation being spearheaded by the Dutch (a NATO country and close Cold-War ally of the US) is probably ending in a cover-up” and when “Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has plainly questioned the integrity of the Dutch-led investigation, alleging that it violated the norms set by the International Civil Aviation Organization, and ‘it was dishonest to use a tragedy to achieve one’s geopolitical goals’.”