Today is a beautiful day in Florida. Yesterday we “survived” not one, but two tornadoes (they mostly hit a national wildlife refuge south of us, there never was any real danger, but this sounds better) and today we get one of those perfect Florida days: blue skies with a few white clouds, beautiful warm sunshine (26C/79F), a cool breeze from the northeast and which brings in the always refreshing smell of the Atlantic ocean (were my lucky son spend six hours surfing the waves this morning). I know that I have to work on my promised report on world opinion and media coverage of the Ukrainian crisis, but I want to “seize the day” and go for some nature photography this afternoon (shall I post some pics of sunny Florida here?). The report will have to wait a little. However, I got two questions recently which I find worth answering in a separate post.
[WARNING: these two questions deal with religion so those of you who hate religion – please just ignore this post.]
Here are the two issues I want to discuss today: James wants to know what the Church is while Mohamed wrote in a comment that the Scripture was corrupted. I will take them one by one (though there is a link between the two)
@James: What is the Church?
To reply to this question adequately one could write a PhD thesis. I will try to make a much shorter reply and point you to a few texts, fair enough?
Since you are a former Latin Christian let me begin by saying what the Church is not. It is not an organization nor a formal institution. You probably remember that in the Symbol of Faith (aka the Credo) it says “In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church”. Most people do not seem to be aware that the words at the very beginning “I believe in” also apply to the section “In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church”. In other words, not only do Orthodox Christians believe”in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible (…) “in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made” (…) in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father” but also “In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church“. The Church itself requires and act of faith similar to the confession of the belief in God. Orthodox Christians literally “believe in the Church” and this is why the Church is most definitely not an organization.
In theological language the Church is called the Theandric Body of Christ. Theandric derives from Theanthropos or “Godman” the central dogma of all Christianity. In other words, the Church is literally the Body of Christ no less than the Eucharist. This is also why the only valid Mysteries (called “Sacraments” in western theology) can only be found inside that Church. Just like the Body of Christ, the Church cannot break into parts, have sub-groups, contradict itself, etc. This is why the Symbol of Faith speaks of ONE Church, no more divisible that God Himself. Again, to accept that requires an act of faith.
The Church is called “Holy” because it is the Body of Christ and that it is filled with the Holy Spirit. This is why at the First Apostolic Council in Jerusalem (50 AD) those present wrote “For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us..” (Acts 15: 28). However, its individual members – laity and clergy – are not necessarily holy at all. The Church is also a hospital for sinners and not an elite club of perfect holy people.
The Church is called “Catholic” because of the Greek word καθολικός which means “universal”, especially in the following two meanings: a) which includes and is not limited to one region, country, continent or part of the world and b) acts in a way which includes everybody. The first one is obvious, but the second one is not. In this sense, “Catholic” means “Counciliar” in reference to a “council of all” or, in Greek, a “Ecumenical” (including the whole world) council. The Russian term Соборный/соборность is very accurate here as it clearly points to a council (“sobor” in Russian). So being “Catholic/Counciliar” means that there is no “teaching Church” versus a “taught Church”, no one instance or clerical rank which is the source of “authority” (to use a Latin concept) or unity. It is the whole Body of the Church, down to the last layperson, which acting as one has the “authority” of the Church. Not even a council of, say, 99% of all the Orthodox Bishops – nevermind one bishop or one Patriarch – on the planet can claim to speak for the Church if the rest of the “Body” does not agree with it. There have been plenty of instances in history were the vast majority of bishops which formally appeared to have remained Orthodox had, in fact, lapsed from the Church. These are the so-called “robber councils” which, at that time, looked legit and had all the external signs of legitimacy, but which the Body of the Church – the people, really – ended up denouncing and condemning later. Again, there is no external legitimacy, no authority from which legitimacy can be derived, no person or group of people who can deliver some “certificate of authenticity” to this or that local Church or bishop. So how do we know which is the one true Church as opposed to those who only appear to be so externally. Here are the criteria of truth:
1) Apostolic succession. Simple enough, does not need to be explained.
2) True confession of faith. The local Church has to confess the exact same faith which, in the words of Saint Athanasios “the Lord gave, was preached by the Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers. On this was the Church founded; and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian“. It has to be what I call “backward compatible” meaning absolutely no innovation. In the words of Saint Vincent of Lerins, it has to be exactly and fully the same as that “”which has been believed everywhere, always and by all“. If they did not all believe and confess X in, say, the 5th century or the 8th century, then it is not Orthodox. Simple.
3) Unity of the Eucharist: simply put – if you are not in Eucharistic communion with the rest of the Body of Christ, you are not part of the Church.
I would note here that the unity of faith is a prerequisite for the Eucharistic communion: if you do not have the same beliefs as I do, we cannot share the same Eucharist. Nowadays some got it exactly backward. They say “let us commune from the same cup, and then iron out our secondary differences later”. This is modern nonsense. The Church has never taught that.
In the world the visible part of the Church is, for cultural and practical reasons, organized along several independent religious organizations: local Churches, independent (“autocephalous”) Patriarchates which can be Russian, Greek, Paraguayan or Japanese. The pray in their own language, organize themselves in any way they want, have their own customs and traditions. Just like there were 12 and 70 apostles there can be plenty local and autonomous Churches as long as they maintain the unity of faith and communion. In fact, if the One Church did not allow that it would not be truly “Catholic” either. And just like the Apostles did not have some “Big Boss” over them, the Church has no Head other than Christ Himself. Sure, for administrative and pastoral issues each Church has a senior bishop (put in charge by a council of local bishops) but even that local boss has no more authority in matters of faith, of confession, that any layperson. There have been plenty instances in the history of the Church when Patriarchs and entire councils strayed from the truth, and they were often reproved and even condemned by simply lay people. Speaking of which, there are only 4 clerical ranks in the Church: layperson (yes, that is a rank, a layperson can, in case of emergency, baptize in the name of the entire Church), deacon, priest and bishop. All the other fancy categories are only administrative or honorary. So folks with roaring titles like “His Beatitude the Archbishop of X” is no more than a simple bishop. A Protopresbyter is just a priest and an Archdeacon is just a deacon. Clergymen, by the way, are formally addressed with honorary titles “Most Reverend”, “Your Grace”, etc. but that really applies to the clerical rank, not the person carrying that rank. Same for kissing the hand of a priest – its not because he is so worthy, but because of the high rank (charisma) bestowed on him. He himself might be a dumb jerk (many are) or even a lying hypocritical ignoramus with a bad temper. Remember, the Church is a hospital for sinners, not a club of holy men. There is only one thing that really matters: the confession of faith of this clergyman needs to be 100% Orthodox and his personal sins must not be serious enough to ban him from serving and/or himself receiving the Eucharist (so no pedophilia, no sexual immorality, no killing, no apostasy, etc.).
Okay, I have to stop here even though we barely scratched the surface here. Let me give you a few good readings I recommend:
Online texts on ecclesiology (what is the Church?):
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/christchurchilarion.htm
http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/komiakov_essay.htm
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/gen_church.aspx (any text on that page)
General books on Orthodox Christianity:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Faith-Understanding-Orthodox-Christianity/dp/0964914115/ http://www.amazon.com/The-Orthodox-Church-New-Edition/dp/0140146563/
http://www.amazon.com/Truth-Catholic-Should-Orthodox-Catechism/dp/0964914182/ http://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Dogmatic-Theology-Concise-Exposition/dp/0938635697
http://www.amazon.com/Theosis-True-Purpose-Human-Life/dp/B001UR1SI0/
I hope that this was useful. If not, I am sorry.
@Mohamed: was the Scripture corrupted?
Yes and no. Yes it was, but never successfully. Let me explain why.
First, if you accept that God did communicate with mankind by means of prophecy and that the prophets did put down the prophecies which they received, you would wonder why then God would let men distort or otherwise corrupt the message He sent us. Of course, all man can err, we are all sinful, and either by mistake or deliberately man have corrupted the Scripture, no question here, the pertinent question is rather could these men have gotten away with that?
In the Third book of Esdras we have an interesting episode. Esdras tells God that the Scripture has been burned and asks “If then I have found favor before thee, send the Holy Spirit into me, and I will write everything that has happened in the world from the beginning, the things which were written in thy law, that men may be able to find the path, and that those who wish to live in the last days may live.” To which God replies “Go and gather the people, and tell them not to seek you for forty days. But prepare for yourself many writing tablets, and take with you Sarea, Dabria, Selemia, Ethanus, and As′iel—these five, because they are trained to write rapidly; and you shall come here, and I will light in your heart the lamp of understanding, which shall not be put out until what you are about to write is finished“. And, sure enough, Esdras tells us “So I took the five men, as he commanded me, and we proceeded to the field, and remained there. And on the next day, behold, a voice called me, saying, “Ezra, open your mouth and drink what I give you to drink.” Then I opened my mouth, and behold, a full cup was offered to me; it was full of something like water, but its color was like fire. And I took it and drank; and when I had drunk it, my heart poured forth understanding, and wisdom increased in my breast, for my spirit retained its memory; and my mouth was opened, and was no longer closed. And the Most High gave understanding to the five men, and by turns they wrote what was dictated, in characters which they did not know. They sat forty days, and wrote during the daytime, and ate their bread at night. As for me, I spoke in the daytime and was not silent at night. So during the forty days ninety-four books were written. And when the forty days were ended, the Most High spoke to me, saying, “Make public the twenty-four books that you wrote first and let the worthy and the unworthy read them; but keep the seventy that were written last, in order to give them to the wise among your people. For in them is the spring of understanding, the fountain of wisdom, and the river of knowledge.” And I did so.
Sorry for the long quote, but I want to illustrate a point: when needed God can command his faithful to restore even the full Scripture provided a) that they are worthy to received the guidance of the Holy Spirit and b) that they receive the “drink like fire” which God gives them (note that this book was written long before the times of Christ!). What is certain is that the notion that God would grant a revelation through His prophets and then allow that revelation to remain corrupted for centuries is rather ludicrous.
There was, indeed, one grievous attempt at falsifying the Scripture. It occurred after the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD. At that time the Jewish people were separated into 2 sects: those who believed that Christ was the Messiah and those who did not. The former become known as Christians, while the latter – mostly Pharisees – created their own group which developed a new spirituality which switched focus from the Old Testament to the Talmud, from the Temple to assemblies (synagogues), from priests to rabbis and from the original Scripture to a new “corrected” text. This texts had the official imprimatur of the rabbis who declared that it has been corrected by their sages, the scribes and scholars. Needless to say, what they really did is cut out or alter those parts of the Scripture which were inconvenient to them. At the time there was a great deal of hostility between the two groups and disputations centered around the Scripture, of course. The issue at hand was simple: did the prophesies about the Messiah in the scripture match what actually happened in the life of Christ or not? Could the followers of Christ prove their case by using the Scripture? Well, the “guardians of the tradition”, or “Masoretes” as they became known, “corrected” the Scripture as much as possible to produce a forgery known today as the “Masoretic text” (abbreviated MT).
Christians immediately saw through that and denounced the text as a fake. One of the earliest documents we have showing that Christians at the time were fully aware that the Jews produced a forgery is the “Dialog with Trypho” in which Saint Justin Martyr (2nd century) explicitly makes that accusation. The latter Fathers have also confirmed that.
You might wonder which text is the original and what happened to it. We only have parts of the original Hebrew “Old Testament” (which is, of course, not what they called it). Following the conquests of Alexander the Great much of what is today the Middle-East was “Hellenized” and the language of the elites and the international language of the time was Greek. About two centuries before the birth of Christ, at the request of the local (Greek) ruler, Ptolemy II Philadelphius, a translation into Greek of the Hebrew text was made for the famous Library of Alexandria by 70 translators from the 12 tribes of Israel. This text is called the Septuagint (abbreviated LXX) in memory of these 70 translators. This is the only text ever considered authoritative by the Church. Following the Latin schism, the LXX was almost forgotten in western Europe where the Latin Church used a translation made by Saint Jerome called the Vulgate. Because the Latin believed that only the “learned” clergy should read the Scripture and then teach and explain it to the “simple” folks, this text was no very widely circulated. In contrast, Luther wanted each Christian to have access to the Scripture. Luther, who was opposed to the Latin clericalism and who suspected that the Latins might have corrupted the text, decided to base his teaching on what he apparently sincerely believed was the “original” Hebrew text, the Masoretic forgery. As a result, the vast majority of Bibles available in the Western World are based on a text deliberately forged by Christ-hating rabbis, including the (otherwise beautifully written) King James Version. More recently, newer “corrected” versions of the MT have been made, but there is still only one, rather bad, translation of the LXX in English, the so-called “Brenton translation” (I hear that a new one is being worked on). But until very recently the West was simply too proud and too ignorant of Patristic thought to remember that only the LXX was the true text of the Old Testament.
I am going into all these details to illustrate a point: yes, Holy Writ can, and has been, corrupted both deliberately (Masoretes) or by ignorance (western Bibles). But God never allows the original true text to simply vanish.
I would also note that what the rabbis attempted is first and foremost a substitution: LXX by MT. They never claimed that the MT was the LXX. In fact, some Jewish holidays (such as Hanukkah) have no scriptural basis in the MT but only in the LXX (in the book of Maccabees in this case). Unlike the West, the Jews never forgot about the LXX – they simply did not want to grant it authoritative status, for quite obvious reasons.
There are some sources which claim that an attempt to corrupt the LXX was also made by Jews, but I have seen no good evidence of that. For one thing, the LXX was simply too widely circulated (not as one text, but as a collection of books) to suddenly substitute another text. Really, the creation of the MT was for “internal consumption” and to beat back Christian polemicists.
So here is my main point: there is zero historical evidence to attest to the corruption of the original Holy Scripture. The only known case is the one I outlined above. We also know from the Scripture itself that God would never deprive his faithful from His Word, the example of Esdras (aka Ezra) above also shows that. Furthermore, simple logic suggests to us that it is impossible to corrupt a text which is both 1) widely circulated and 2) very closely analyzed and held for sacred.
Let me conclude here by saying that I personally believe that the Prophet Muhammad did hear about the Masoretic forgery and that this inspired him to look at the Christian Scripture with a strong suspicion that the text had been forged. Obviously, like Luther, he was not aware of the LXX. It is also possible that Muhammad might have had another reason to declare that the Christian scripture was corrupted: the so-called Old Testament has absolutely no prophecy speaking of any figure like Muhammad, this is why some Muslim scholars have had to declare that the “Comforter” mentioned by Christ to His disciples was a reference to Muhammad and not to the Holy Spirit, an interpretation which even a superficial reading of the New Testament immediately invalidates and which not a single Church Father or theologian between the first and seventh century endorsed.
Whatever may be the case, the Muslim theory that the Scripture has been successfully corrupted is both illogical and a-historical. One can, of course, chose to believe it, especially if one accepts that everything, including the historical record, has been forged, corrupted or lost, but at least to me faith and common sense should not contradict each other.
I think that it is undeniable that Christianity grew out of the religion of the Jewish people before the birth of Christ. Christ Himself constantly makes references to the books the Church has united into one volume called the “Old Testament”. If the topic is of interest to you, see all the texts on this page, especially this one and this one. In contrast, Islam has no other scriptural basis that itself or, rather, the book it produced: the Quran.
In conclusion I want to say that a closer look at history shows that the notion of “Judeo-Christian” is simply at least as nonsensical as speaking of a White-Black or a Dry-Wet. As for the so-called “Abrahamic religions” they truly have nothing in common. Modern Judaism is really nothing else but an “anti-Christianity” while Islam is a faith which appeared ex-nihilo and has no basis in either Jewish or Christian scripture or oral tradition.
I hope that I have not offended anybody here, especially not my Muslim friends and readers, but I felt that it was important to lay out here the original Christian understanding of these issues. As any other Orthodox Christian I strongly feel that it is my personal obligation to preserve that which has been passed on to me (the “corporate memory and awareness” of the Church, if you want) and to share it with others if/when it is appropriate. As (hopefully) intelligent and considerate people, we can “agree to disagree”, but to do that, you need to be made aware of the nature of what we might disagree on, right? By the way, I would welcome any offer to present a Muslim view of this – or any other – topic here and if somebody submits it (in the comment section for example) I will be glad to post it.
That’s it for today. I will return to worldly topics tomorrow.
I wish you all an excellent week-end, kind regards,
The Saker
Dearest Saker,
@Saker : Modern Judaism is really nothing else but an “anti-Christianity” while Islam is a faith which appeared ex-nihilo and has no basis in either Jewish or Christian scripture or oral tradition.
Question: What is the different between Scripture and Sunnah of a Prophet?
Let us say what is the different between Quran and Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad (saws).
To Muslims Quran is = Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad (saws). The word, “Sunni” comes from Sunnah. For a long, long time, one of the reasons the Shia were considered heretic, because it was rumored against them that they don’t believe in the Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad (saws). It went like this, “if the Shia believed in the Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad (saws) then they will be Sunni and not Shia” Haha.
A Scripture is given to a Prophet though God’s Messenger, Gabriel. Malika doesn’t mean Angel (bad translation) it means, “Messenger”. A Prophet is a lower grade, and in Islam there are about 140,000 Prophets. The first one being Adam (as) and the last one being Mohammad (saws). The Message was given to them “Verbally” and they are supposed to pass it down “Verbally” too. For this reason they are not called, Prophet (bad translation) but Nabi (Navi in Hebrew). The Nabi is to give Naba (Glad Tidings). Since the Message was “Verbal” and not written, it kept getting corrupted as the time passed, more and more Nabis was raised.
As humans progressed and they begin to read and write then the Message (Risala – Letter) was give to Messengers (bad translation) to Rasool (Receiver of Risala) to be put into writing. First attempts the language was not so developed and the world lacked, “Paper, Ink and Printing”. The Messages got corrupted too, eventually about 1400 years ago it was put down in Quran. Quran is a Scripture. It is said that there are from 5 to 20 Rasools.
Thus, the Scripture is from God to Mankind. One can think of different religions (corporations), where each corporation Policy Manual is same from Adam to Mohammad. Thus, Scripture is from God, and it is same from Day 1 till today without change.
A Prophet is a CEO of the corporations. His job is to explain the Message by Words and Deeds. Each CEO has it own Operating Manual and that is called, the Sunnah of a Prophet. The Prophet lives his life as an example, showing people how to do everything liked by God. For Example, “a Prophet went up the hill and then he came down the hill” is not Scripture of God. It is simply the Sunnah of the Prophet.
Thus, in conclusion The Torah, The Psalms and The Gospel are the Sunnah of Prophet Moses (as), Prophet David (as) and Prophet Jesus (as) respectively.
Just like the Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad (saws) was cooked and cooked, then recooked, and cooked some more. Also, the Sunnah of the above Prophets was cooked too.
Best regards,
Mohamed
Dearest Nora,
@Nora : I’m not jealous, I’m glad! And looking forward to what you write.
I know! BTW, how is MR. Nora.
There is one of my post is still missing a very long one. I guess Dear Saker is still chewing on it.
In the post, I compare a Shia girl and a Hindu girl. Shia believe that God is Just. So, if these two girls have the same good deeds, what will the Shia Just God do with them on the Judgment Day?
BTW, the Hindus are Monotheistic and they believe in Trimurti. Their God name is from TaNaKh and Quran. Or it is other way around?
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Virginia Wolf.‘Modern Novels’ (1919):
< The most inconclusive remarks upon modern English fiction can hardly avoid some mention of the Russian influence […]. If we want understanding of the soul and heart where else shall we find it of comparable profundity? If we are sick of our own materialism the least considerable of their novelists has by right of birth a natural reverence for the human spirit. […] It is the saint in them which confounds us with a feeling of our own irreligious triviality.>
Sick of our own materialism.. good diagnosis.
James was the leader after Jesus and therefore the succession passed to him and not to Peter.
==============================
St. James was simply chosen as the first bishop of Jerusalem. Jerusalem was of course the most important See, but that’s all.
All the Apostles (St. James was not) could consacrate a bishop and every bishop could do the same after.
The power was given to them as the established Church, not to a single individual.
What is so difficult to understand?
Miscellanea
1) It’s the Western Christianity who has a shameful and bloody history. Not only, it has lead to the current almost total apostasy of the West.
It’s normal, as the Holy Spirit did leave them a thousand years ago.
Indeed, the Lord thus said: By their fruits, you shall know them.
2) I’m glad to inform some simpleminds that, by the same method used, has been concluded that Caius Julius Caesar did never exist.
3) A loving father warns his beloved chldren to don’t eat a poisoned fruit, lest they die.
The children do not listen, they eat it, they die.
Do you have a bad father or some very stupid children?
4) Gospel are not in contradiction, if you know how to read them. To understand them take a lot more than reading, because the main problem here is the reader.
This can help to grasp the whole context: http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/gospel_averky_e.htm
5) 9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour.
10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance
11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth.
12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air.
13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”
14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”
15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.”
16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.
Act 10, 1-16
6) The LXX is a built-in translation, because is God-given.
The seventy translators were separated and every of them charged with translating the whole corpus.
When they completed the job, their works were compared and ALL of them coincided. They did come out with seventy equal versions!
Hi again, Mohamed
Mr. Nora is asleep at the moment after spending the day digging up maybe 2 cu. yds. of new veggiebed. (Not bad for a geezer, huh?). I’ll tell him you asked for him whenever he wakes up and wants dinner!
Your question about the Shia and Hindu girl hits home here pretty deeply since I’m finding myself increasingly torn between Native American and Christian spirituality and keep using “the words in red” (said by Jesus in the NT and always printed in red), especially the Two Great Commandments, as my true guide. Really and truly, if you pare everything else away, that’s ultimately His message and all we really need.
Dear Saker,
Very interesting post. A small point on translation. “Theandric” does not really derive from “Theanthropos”. The first comes from the word “andras”, meaning “man”, the second from “anthropos”, meaning “human”.
The mystery of the Logos’ incarnation has been called theandric only because the dogma holds that the Logos was incarnated on a man’s body, Christ’s.
The word “theanthropic” would be more accurate indeed: various Greek Orthodox saints, (such as Gregory Palamas, John of Damascus, Theodore the Studite and others) have openly said that the Virgin Mary also resurrected after three days in the tomb…
Hi Nora,
@Nora : especially the Two Great Commandments, as my true guide. Really and truly, if you pare everything else away, that’s ultimately His message and all we really need.
I don’t know what happened to my post. Maybe, Saker is still chewing on it. Or, maybe it went into abyss and I have to write it again.
It is One Great Commandment and not Two. How one is going to show his/her love of God to extreme. By staying all night long in a Mosque, Church, Mandar, Synagogues …..
No, it is “loving your neighbor like yourself”.
If the Creator is One, then He sent the same Law and Religion on All His Children, whether they are blue, grey, brown, white, red, purple, yellow, black ……
Therefore, the very first Verse of the Quran ….. “Thanks to Allah, who is Rahman and Rahim”. Put a letter “B” in front of Rahman and Rahim.
Do you know what Rahman and Rahim means?
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Dearest Nora,
BTW, the Two Great Commandments are in TaNaKh (OT) too. And, in every religious book out there.
We don’t own God, He owns us. We do think that we own Him, and thus we have exclusive right on Him and no one else.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Dearest Maedhros,
@Maedhros : The LXX is a built-in translation, because is God-given. The seventy translators were separated and every of them charged with translating the whole corpus.
When they completed the job, their works were compared and ALL of them coincided. They did come out with seventy equal versions!
I do realize that all Christians believe that every writer of their Scripture was inspired.
Seventy translators means, 70 Rabbis who had memorized the complete TaNaKh by heart. The Hebrew language was Not so advanced that people can read it. As I have mentioned earlier, Quran was the first Semitic Book, in which the proper grammar was laid, and it could be read. From the Quran, short vowels, other diacritics and letter differentiations were added to TaNaKh during the 12th to 15th centuries.
All the 70 translators got Lucifer wrong as no mention is made of Lucifer in TaNaKh. However, “Morning Star” in TaNaKh is translated to “Lucifer” in LXX. Imagine, Lucifer is not even a Hebrew name.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
James was the leader after Jesus and therefore the succession passed to him and not to Peter…
I am unclear where this leaves the Orthodox Church. Saker has said they share the same succession initially but Saker also says the succession can come from any of the Apostles.
Well, James was appointed by the Apostles the leader of the Church in Jerusalem, not of all the Church. The Apostles were not bishops, every one of them receiving the power to ordain the first bishops.
“21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained” (John 20, 21-23).
Your thesis on the Masoretic text being a forgery and on the LXX therefore being the authentic OT text we have is interesting, and new to me. Can you refer me to any sources that discuss the history and evidence in more detail?
Mohamed,
Well, if you’re still here, I just Googled them — and had always wondered about the inter-relatedness of Hinduism, Islam and Christianity. Mercy and Compassion — two wonderful words, and you don’t even hear them very much in the West anymore, even though they’ve always been most honored in the breach. And yes, when I was talking about the Two — or One — Great Commandments, that was what I was trying to say. Well, that and your last sentence! Imo, Native American spirituality generally takes the interconnectedness of things a step or two further, not just in terms of caring for all parts of our world (don’t you wish American culture had kept THAT???), but also looking both backwards and forwards as well as sideways when deciding what to do — always with those same precepts in mind. Do any of us need more than that for a guide? My personal opinion is that God has spoken to all of us, in language we should (or need to) understand, and His message is constant, even though we tend only to hear parts of it at any given time.
And yes, “We don’t own God, He owns us” — is an excellent corrective for a whole lot of squabbles, and worse, throughout human history, not just on this blog!
Thank you, Saker, for this background on your thinking. It’s useful to know where you’re coming from. I care about your religious values only as they inspire you to honesty and accuracy.
I was too burned by the supposed certainties taught by my tradition, Anglican, to trust any Truth promoted by Authority. What I was told in the 1960s about sexuality was just wrong. “Discerning the will of God” seems to me to take the tradition as a tea cup, and then trying to read the tea leaves of your feelings in it. It’s inescapably subjective. Galileo and Darwin taught us to look at evidence.
Which you do in regard to the Ukraine. I won’t ask what your faith is based on. Just one thing — if you share the retrograde, flat-earth, hetero-centric view of sexuality of official Orthodox teaching, that would be an obstacle for me.
@Murdoch Matthew: Just one thing — if you share the retrograde, flat-earth, hetero-centric view of sexuality of official Orthodox teaching, that would be an obstacle for me.
“Retrograde, flat-earth hetero-centric view of sexuality of official Orthdox teaching?” Seriously? LOL!
As opposed to a progressive, round-earth, homo-centric view of sexuality a la Conchita Wurst I suppose?
You probably don’t even realize how rude and ignorant you come across. Not to mention a fantastic sense of self-righteousness and entitlement. Guess what? I couldn’t care less what you would consider an “obstacle” is only because you clearly have many other “obstacles” you cannot cope with.
Here is some reading for you, just so you see where I stand on the issue of “sads”. See for yourself whether this is an “obstacle” or not :-)
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2012/06/moscow-bans-homosexual-pride-parades.html
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2012/07/will-pedophilia-be-next-paraphilia-to.html
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2013/01/anti-gay-parade-poster-seen-in-moscow.html
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2013/08/why-i-say-that-homo-rights-in-russia.html
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-homos-want-to-boycott-russian-vodka.html
And don’t let the door hit you on the way out!
Most sincerely,
The Saker
Truly stunning, Saker. I’m sure there is much hilarity in Pandemonium right now!
@Latin faith interpretation of Matthew 17:18 as effectively defining the Papacy as leader of the apostolic succession with Peter as its first incumbent, to be a very persuasive piece of Latin exegesis
It is no wonder that for the Latins, the Latin interpretation of Matthew 16, 18 is persuasive. It is less so for the non-Latin.
For the Orthodox the “rock” is the “stone of Thy witness”, the Confession by Peter that Jesus is the Son of God.
Matthew 16, 13-20
“13Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” 15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” 20Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.
It is known that Matthew had a version in Hebrew (or Aramaic). Now in both Hebrew and Aramaic “peter” means an interpreter of dreams, from a radical PTR which means: Interpretation, a revealing of a text or speech in order to understand it, breaking open to reveal fruit (the meaning).
It looks like a play on words, mixing of Aramaic with Greek. The Christ said: Simon, son of Jonah You are “peter” (an interpreter of dreams, oracles) and on the “petra” (stone in Greek and Latin) of this interpretation I will build my church…
The “power of the keys” means then the correct interpretation of the Word. It is what the Apostle says in his second Epistle, where he warned against false teachings: “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost”.
I rather hoped that you’d tell me that I was wrong about “official” Orthodox teaching — I’m familiar with only the Anglican kind. Thanks to the links I didn’t think to search for, I see you’re heavily invested in your worldview, to the point of dismissing counter evidence as “silly” and citing people in extreme costumes as somehow illustrative of homo depravity.
What has a Conchita Wurst to do with people of the same gender finding one another and making lives together? Yes, and raising children in many cases, so much for the procreation cavil. The myriad of same-sex couple now able to live openly aren’t seeking special privileges or demanding your attention — they just want recognition as a part of the social order, as heterosexual couples enjoy as their right — wedding rings, pictures of family, easy talk of spouses at the office. The guys in parades are a sideshow, not the main act.
I’m 82 years old, I’ve been through church (Baptist and Anglican) and conventional marriage. I’ve now had 31 years with a good man and the support of many many gay people who are working to improve their community. My life now works; it didn’t before. I’ll take my experience and a half-century of scientific research (that I’ve followed closely) over the ideology that misled me through half my life. The tide was turned in the psychological community not only by the politics you deplore, but by the increasing visibility of normal gay people not in therapy.
I won’t accept your invitation to stomp out of the Vineyard (it has a door?)– I want the info you offer on US propaganda and the Ukraine. I will now wonder whether the rigidity you display on sexuality says anything about your use of evidence in other areas.
Thank you for the links, which are indeed clarifying. I can’t add to the good objections many commenters raised at the time. Back to the blog!
@ Mohamed
I do realize that all Christians believe that every writer of their Scripture was inspired.
==============================
hg
More exactly, when we are presented by 70 translators, working separately, with 70 perfectly equal texts, till the last word, usually we do not dismiss the thing as a coincidence.
But you know, we are superstitious people.
By the way, I understand that you’ve been teached that no written text of the Jewish Scriptures did exist at that time, and the fact that it is simply not true is not going to change your mind.
P.S. – Could someone please inform poor Darwin, who allegedly taught us to look at the evidences, that after two centuries we have found NONE supporting his fantasies?
Thank you!
Dear Nora:
@Nora : Well, if you’re still here, I just Googled them — and had always wondered about the inter-relatedness of Hinduism, Islam and Christianity. Mercy and Compassion — two wonderful words, and you don’t even hear them very much in the West anymore, even though they’ve always been most honored in the breach.
In Quran Allah, has 99 names (attributes) and allah is not one of them. Allah is not a name. Also, the attributes of Allah are not His names. If God had a name in our language, then our culture will own God.
Imam Ali (as) reminds in his very first sermon in Nahjul Balaqha that these 99 attributes are One for us just to understand God. They should be taken together, and if not then we divide God into more than One and move away from Monotheism.
There are tons of thick books written just explaining the 99 attributes of God.
So, what is Rahman and Rahim means:
Rahman: Rahman is a God, who is like Mother Like. My personal translation is “Unconditional Mercy”. Rahman stands for “unconditional; absolute; unprejudiced; just; justice; unbiased; unlimited; supreme; total; etc……..” It is a God, who does not make difference between his Creations.
God provides for All His Creation, just like the mother cares for her pups with no conditions attached. God Nurtures, Sustains, Nourishes, Cherish everything Created, just like the mother nurtures, sustains, nourishes, cherish her pups in her tummy and outside the tummy.
Rabbi has almost the same meaning, but with the extra word, “my …”. Rabbi, just like Eli, Eloi are possessive pronouns. My Rabb, my El, my Elo.
Rahim: Rahim is a God, who is like Father Like. My personal translation is “Everlasting Mercy”. Rahim means “never-ending; forever; endless; eternal; ever-lasting; ever-merciful; sympathetic; infinite; choosy; prejudice; etc.
It is like a father who is very careful between his children. The good children’s, he encourages and the bad ones, he reprimand. Hell is God’s Kingdom too and He is in Hell too. Thus those unfortunate, who are us in Hell, we can truly repent in Hell to His Everlasting Mercy. And, if He accepts our true repentance, we might be allowed to go into Heaven.
BTW, the above are Shia beliefs only and not the beliefs all all Muslim.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Dearest Saker, WizOZ, Maedhros, Nora or anyone:
I don’t believe that below are Jesus’ words due to their repercussions on Christianity.
“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”
1. Can someone explain me that above are Jesus words and how?
2. And, what repercussions these words have on Christianity.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Dear Nora,
@Nora : My personal opinion is that God has spoken to all of us, in language we should (or need to) understand, and His message is constant, even though we tend only to hear parts of it at any given time.
Fully agree and this is the Shia belief in a nutshell.
It is Islamic belief that before we are conceived God has told us about Himself. So, we are all born knowing God. In case of dire stress or dire calamity, we all turn to Him. We just look up.
Shia go one step further, that before we are conceived (not in fetal development), we are told about Good and Evil. We are born with instinct knowing the difference between Good and Evil. The Sunni believe like other religions, we are taught about Good and Evil by religion.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
The Saker or other religious commentors in the blog, could you please help me with these two questions?
I’ll quote from my first comment in this post, in a condensed form:
‘.. what is the gist of what a Christian belives. I mean, the immutable core beliefs? Is there maybe a web site you could point me to? I found some myself, but i’d like to see one endorsed by you or the religious commenters here.’
‘Now, do you interpret the words belief (in a religious context) and faith as meaning the same or do you make a difference? Is there certitude or not? When religious people ‘believe’ in something (which they cannot provide proof for), do they think of it in the way that they could say as well ‘This is the truth, i am pretty sure, but of course there is the possibility that it could be wrong’, or do they think of it in the way of ‘This is the truth, i am absolutely sure, i am certain, there is no way it could be wrong’.
Also, in case there is no such thing as core beliefs all Christians share, that’s fine, i just would like to know. To the second question, i’d be happy with a very short answer, like: ‘If we believe it, then we are certain that it is the truth.’
Cheers,
-yt
-yt
I’m sure Saker will have a much fuller account, and from an Orthodox perspective which will probably make more sense than the Western traditions I grew up with. So I’ll try, but I’m certainly no expert! The core Christian belief is the Incarnation, that Jesus is both man and God, the Word made flesh. Without that, you really can’t be a Christian. To me, it’s just in the gut though I’ll admit that sometimes I struggle with the next part, which is the Resurrection, why God would create him only to have him suffer and die — frankly, I’m not sure we’re worth it! Which leads right into your question about the, what, totality of believing. There is a wonderful quote from Mark 9:24 when Jesus healed a child suffering from what sounds like epilepsy after having said to its father, “If thou canst believe, then all things are possible.” And this is what the father said back, “I believe; help thou mine unbelief.” So struggling with one’s unbelief has always been a part of the journey of faith; you’ll find accounts of it in some of the best Christian writings. To have one’s faith tried is really not something to be afraid of; the struggle will only deepen your understanding and keep you appropriately humble while hopefully deepening your faith too.
@Murdoch Matthew: okay, a serious and polite reply invites me to reciprocate. Fair enough.
First, and just for the record, I personally have no opinion or interest about what adults do between themselves, provided that
a) They are not Orthodox Christians
b) That they do not insist on my passive/active support/approval
c) That they do not insist on making their model the norm
You have to understand that as a traditionalist Orthodox Christian I do believe that ALL humans, not just homosexuals, have lost their originally perfect nature and that as a result of that what is now “natural” for us is not at all necessarily anything good, desirable or otherwise praiseworthy. I often have the desire to yell at my fellow human beings and I also often have the desire to despair of mankind. So what? Does that mean that that is right? Of course not.
The word “sin” in Greek means “missing the mark” or “not realizing your true potential”. In that sense, homosexuals are not different from most heterosexuals. We *ALL* miss our mark which we can only recover through repentance and a lifelong inner struggle against our fallen nature. In sexual terms, “hitting the target” or “realizing your full potential” means to reserve sex to marriage to one woman for your entire life. The purpose of life, by the way, is to achieve theosis, or union with the energies of God. The purpose of marriage is not to procreate like the Latins claim, but to help each other on the way towards theosis through life. Homosexuals fail here, but so do those who have sex outside marriage, those who cheat on their spouses, those who divorce and re-marry and even those who fail to truly love their spouses like Christ loved the Church or who fail to submit to each other. So, in my flat-earth spirituality, we don’t really single out one group like homosexuals as “failing to meet their full potential” we single out only one group (loving life-long married heterosexual couples) as having achieved it. ALL others we see as having failed. We don’t ostracize or condemn them, but neither to we hypocritically tell them that they achieved the same, only differently. In other words, we don’t lie to them.
to be continued…
… continuation
I personally don’t flaunt my own sexuality in the face of others, I see sexuality as a private matter, why should I accept it from others? Keep your sexuality where – like my own – it belongs – your bedroom – and I will return you the courtesy and never pry into what is yours.
But the in-your-face arrogant and strident campaign which homosexuals are engaged in today? It really does merit nothing but a firm and categorical rejection and I am very happy that folks in Russia are doing just that. As for the notion of homosexual couples raising kids, having had three kids myself, I can tell you that kids do most definitely need TWO CLEARLY DIFFERENTIATED genders at home to be balanced. Anything else screws them up badly. I know, I was raise by my mother alone and my own childhood is a total disaster from which I partially survived and recovered at great personal costs. Took me 50 years and I am still working at it, with great difficulty I would add.
So for me homosexual couples are as much the (usually involuntary) cause of child abuse (not necessarily sexual) than divorced couples, modern “nuclear” families, “re-composed” families and all the rest of the modern horrors we heap on our poor kids.
Finally, I am way too well read to buy the modern canard that there is no link between male homosexuality and pedophilia. There is, there always was, and for all the modern denials thereof, history proves otherwise.
Anyway, I will convince you of nothing other than my own flat-earth bigotry I suppose, but I just wanted to lay out in front of you in a hyper-succinct form what this bigotry actually believed.
Are we retrograde? Yes, absolutely! By 2000 years no less.
Hetero-centric? No. Only Truth-centric.
Kind regards and cheers, (happy that you are staying!)
The Saker
@ Mohamed: I do realize that all Christians believe that every writer of their Scripture was inspired.
It would be more accurate that we believe that the Church is inspired.
Cheers,
The Saker
@-yt
The best book on Christianity without denominational dogma is “Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis.
Written sixty years ago and still far and away the best description of what Chritianity is and why.
‘.. what is the gist of what a Christian belives. I mean, the immutable core beliefs?
============================
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, True God of True God, Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made;
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from the heavens, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man;
And was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;
And rose again on the third day, according to the Scriptures;
And ascended into the heavens, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father;
And shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father and with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, Who spake by the Prophets;
I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
I Confess one Baptism for the remission of sins.
I look for the Resurrection of the dead, And the life of the age to come.
Amen.
Mohamed,
Could you please give us all an English translation of the 99 attributes — it would be very helpful if non-Muslims could get an appreciation of what you have in your faith that we don’t, at least not in that form (I kind of think we probably do but not with your focus). And we SOOOO need to understand your faith better.
And that second Shi’a belief is what I’ve always just believed, though I never connected it to religion! Obviously, I should have; it just never occurred to me…
I don’t believe that below are Jesus’ words due to their repercussions on Christianity.
“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”
1. Can someone explain me that above are Jesus words and how?
2. And, what repercussions these words have on Christianity.
============================
Please let Christians assess repercussions on Christianity of Christ’s words.
After all, we are just that: a repercussion of His words (and deeds).
And be sure, if are reported in the Gospels as His words, they ARE Jesus’ words.
On the matter (John 8, 1-11), let one great Father of the Church speak, St. Nikolai Velimirovich:
http://www.pravmir.com/what-was-christ-writing-on-the-ground/
What’s the meaning to obtain from this Saviour’s teaching?
Mainly three permanent reminders to all of us, in my humble opinion:
1) Show always mercy to sinners.
2) A very good training to this task is to remember constantly your sins.
3) Repentance is the only money that mercy accepts; he who has received mercy has to change his ways and sin no more. God cannot be mocked!
When you say Latins do you mean all Roman Catholics or just the Latin ones?
Since Saker has given us carte blanche to comment on the religious issues he raised, I’d like to add my two cents about Latin Christians, as he calls us, or Catholics as we call ourselves. Since there are over 1.2 billion of us worldwide per Wikipedia (including in the 22 or so non-Latin, Eastern-Catholic parts of the Church), someone should speak for us.
First of all, the name Catholic does indeed mean universal, from the Greek καθολικός, as Saker said. It does not, however, mean “counciliar ”, since a council in Greek is a synod, “σύνοδος”, nothing at all like the word Catholic etymologically. The ancient church, indeed, was coordinated by councils/synods of governing bishops, should still be in my estimation, but the word Catholic does not refer to that. It’s first usage in the literature is dated to 107 AD, by St. Ignatius of Antioch, in his letter to the Church at Smyrna: “Where the bishop is to be seen, let all his people be, just as whenever Jesus Christ is present, we have the catholic Church.” By the mid 100’s AD, the term was used by St. Polycarp of Smyrna, St. Justin Martyr, and others, as “The Catholic Church.” It had become a title, the name given to the universal church, governed by the bishops, heirs to the apostles, the Church that was the same throughout the Roman empire.
Here are two passages showing how the Catholic Church was viewed just after it became legal, from Newman’s “Development of Doctrine” (in his old-fashioned translation) :
St. Cyril in his “Catechetical Lectures”, writing about 350 AD, says: “If ever thou art sojourning in any city, inquire not simply where the Lord’s house is (for the sects of the profane make an attempt to call their own dens houses of the Lord) nor merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of this Holy Body, the Mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Then St. Augustine, in “Against the Manicheans”, writing about 390, says “Lastly by the very title of Catholic, which not without cause this Church has, amid so many heresies, obtained in such sort, that, whereas all heretics wish to be called Catholics, nevertheless to any stranger, who asked where to find the ’Catholic’ Church, none of them would dare to point to his own basilica or home.”
And so it is today. In general usage, the name Catholic still applies to us alone, to “Latin Christians”, as Saker calls us, and to our churches alone, as everyone knows.
(N.B., The term “Roman Catholic” was coined in 1581 by the puritan polemicist Percival Wiburn, in his “Checke or Reproofe of M. Howlet”, using the term to distinguish Catholics from Anglicans: he didn’t like either. Like many pejorative terms, Quaker and Mormon for instance, “Roman Catholic” became a badge of honor. But the official name is still “The Catholic Church.”)
I should add, as I have before, I have the greatest respect for Russian Orthodoxy, and Eastern Orthodoxy in general. When the divine founder of us all, on his last night on earth, prayed for his disciples, his principle prayer was that they be one. And so do the Popes pray, at least since Vatican II, and so do I, and so should we all.
@Nora
Thank you very much for your answers.
About core beliefs, you wrote: “The core Christian belief is the Incarnation, that Jesus is both man and God, the Word made flesh. Without that, you really can’t be a Christian. To me, it’s just in the gut though I’ll admit that sometimes I struggle with the next part, which is the Resurrection, ..”
I thought there would be more core beliefs which all Christians share and maybe there are, but this is a starting point.
About my question of certitude in befief, you wrote: “So struggling with one’s unbelief has always been a part of the journey of faith; you’ll find accounts of it in some of the best Christian writings. To have one’s faith tried is really not something to be afraid of; the struggle will only deepen your understanding and keep you appropriately humble while hopefully deepening your faith too.”
As i interpret your answer: Christian beliefs, or faith, always mean certitude. Not to doubt is always what a Christian wants to achieve, but it’s not always happening. When there is doubt, Christians strive to overcome it and be absolutely sure again. Is that about right?
@james
Thank you for your book recommendation. But i admit, i want to limit the time i spend on educating myself about religions, so i was looking for a web site (there is only so much time at hand, and religion is in competition with so many other topics to study).
@Maedhros
Thanks for the quote. I have read this before, i guess here in the blog or comments, but i have a hard time really understanding or interpreting the meaning of such texts.
Cheers,
-yt
-yt
The Nicene Creed posted by Maedhros above is a pretty fully recounting of Christian belief, though I’m not sure all the Protestant/Evangelical/Fundamentalist churches recite it. But I tried to boil things down to their basic underpinnings, just to get to the kernel of things. Do take another look at the Creed though — it may require more explaining, but everything is pretty much there.
In terms of belief and struggling with unbelief vs. certitude, well, to truly, fully believe at all times would be wonderful, and some people do. Most of us, though, for a variety of reasons, go through stages or periods where our beliefs get challenged. I don’t see that as a bad thing, because blind, unquestioning belief could very well mean a person is simply misbelieving, denying reality or afraid to admit they’re wrong. So you struggle, hopefully honestly, for however long it takes until the issues are resolved. I’ve gone through this a bit over the years — my core faith, the in-the-gut stuff, never seems to get shaken, but my understanding of what it’s all about has deepened and my faith generally has, too. So sometimes it’s shaky, sometimes it’s not, but I always know it’s there and that whatever I’m shaky about I’ll eventually resolve. (I’m old, I’m used to it by now!) A person never stops growing, learning, and to me, anyhow, your faith ought to grow right along with the rest of you. Not always a smooth process, though, I’ll tell you that! And “being sure” is kind of a goal, but to me it’s also got to fit together, make sense. The Saker is a much better person to answer this in more detail though: he’s far more knowledgeable than I am, and I think the Orthodox faith really handles many issues in Christianity far better than any of our Western ones.
And as far as Maedhros’ words on casting the first stone, yes, that incident is definitely in the Bible although some scholars do claim it was a later addition. I grew up with that one, heard it all the time, but have never heard a better exegesis than those three points Maedhros made. They are the essence of how to act like a Christian — and you’re quite right in noting how few of us have ever succeeded!
@-yt
Mere Christianity is a small book and you could read it in an afternoon. It is packed with what you want. Lewis is like no other religious writer. He uses logic , examples and analogies that are easy to identify with. It will help you sort out a lot because you will understand, not just believe as other writers wish you to.
I can’t do better than that and I don’t think you will either :)
Dearest Saker,
Salam,
@Saker : It would be more accurate that we believe that the Church is inspired.
1. So which Church is inspired?
2. Just the Orthodox Church or other Churches too?
3. Who decides which Church is inspired?
Best regards,
Mohamed.
@Catholic, universal
The catholicity of the Church refers to the measure of Truth contained in her teachings.
“In logic, or the consideration of valid arguments, a proposition is said to have universality if it can be conceived as being true in all possible contexts without creating a contradiction:
“To say of what is, that it is not, or of what is not, that it is, is false; while to say of what is, that it is, and of what is not, that it is not, is true.” – Aristotle
The churches which follow the false teachings emanated from Rome are therefore not Catholic.
Dearest Maedhros,
Shalom, Peace, Salam,
@Maedhros : By the way, I understand that you’ve been teached that no written text of the Jewish Scriptures did exist at that time, and the fact that it is simply not true is not going to change your mind.
No dear brother I never claimed that written text of Jewish Scriptures did not exist at that time.
What I claimed is that the written language and grammar was not so much developed at the time. Let me give you an example:
For example eloh means, “God”. Now eloh is a feminine noun and how do we know this? Because, the last letter at the end is a closed “T”, which is pronounced as a “H”. Just like in Chevrolet, which is pronounced as, “Chevroleh”.
So, eloh is God. But in both KJV and NIV (I am not sure about your Bible) Jesus use for “My God” as “eli” in one of the Gospel and in another one as “eloi” Now you see that all “eloh, elo, el” means “God”.
But in those day, due to lack of proper language development, God will be written in Hebrew as “el” and not as “elo, eloh, elot”. It will be always pronounced as eloh.
Even due to lack of diacritics “My God” which will be pronounced as “elohi” will be written simply as, “el”.
Thus, “Emanuel” means, “God with us” and “Israel” means, “Ever Lasting God”. Make senses!
Also, in those days due to lack of Printing, Paper and Ink, each LXX will probably weigh several kilograms. Also, there were no computers then, so no “word processor” or “spreadsheets”. The comparison of 70 LXX for word for word will be almost impossible.
A good book to read on the subject of lack Printing, Paper and Ink is:
Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why is a book by Bart D. Ehrman
Best regards,
Mohamed.
c) That they do not insist on making their model the norm
The sinners feel deep down that they are wrong, but would never admit it because they would not repent. They would find always “scientific” reasons for their wrongdoings, as to make a norm out of their deviations. They would try to bring other people to think and act like themselves in order to prove to themselves that they are right. And they would always abuse those who show them the truth.
We witness in all walks of life a reversal of values. Ugliness is the new Beauty, falsehood is the new truth, normalcy is sickness and so on and so forth. In a world which came to worship a sausage (Wurst) nothing should surprise us anymore.
@The core Christian belief is the Incarnation…I struggle with the next part, which is the Resurrection…
Dear Nora,
The Resurrection is a core Christian belief, if not THE core belief:
“…13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised” (1 Corinthians, 13-15).
“My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence” (John 18, 36).
Why do people have such difficulties to think of their ultimate destiny, the eternal life? Maybe the answer is in the parable:
“16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions”.(Matthew 19:16-22)
Dearest Maedhros,
Peace,
@ Maedhros : Mainly three permanent reminders to all of us, in my humble opinion:
1) Show always mercy to sinners.
2) A very good training to this task is to remember constantly your sins.
3) Repentance is the only money that mercy accepts; he who has received mercy has to change his ways and sin no more. God cannot be mocked!
The above is very excellent explanation, and this is what Muslims believe too!
But Jesus is a Just Judge, taught by God. Basically, Jesus took the words of crowd and pronounced the woman guilty without looking into her crime. And, after pronouncing her guilty, he then forgave her. Being one of the Greatest Prophet, he had the right to forgive provided if she had committed the crime.
I don’t think there was any crime committed. She was accused, but no proof was presented to Jesus. Jesus just took the words of the crowd and pronounced her guilty, which he will never do.
As Saker said that translations are transliterations. Let us take the Major Command:
“Thou shalt not commit Adultery”. Now some of my Christians friends give the definition, that it does not apply to unmarried people. Adultery to them means married people having sex outside the marriage.
No, the real Major Command is “Thou Shalt not commit Zina (Hebrew/Arabic)”.
Q. What is the definition of Zina?
A. Zina means when penetration is taken place either between two men or between a man and a woman, outside the marriage.
Q. How Zina is proven?
A. In Judaism at least two witnesses has seen the penetration taken place. In Islam it requires a minimum of four witness, who would have seen the penetration taken place.
Q. So how the four witness have seen the penetration taken place. Either though one of the below methods:
1. The penetration was committed in open public. The offenders were “Exhibitionists”.
2. The witnesses were “Peeping Toms”.
3. The witnesses were part of the “Orgy” being taken place and they are part of the crime.
Thus, Zina is impossible to prove. It is like trying to find a needle in a large, large the hay stack. Almost Impossible.
Now, when the crowd brought the woman to Jesus:
Q1. Penetration requires two offenders, did they bring the other (man) offender ?
Q2, Which of the witness who witnessed the penetration?
Q3. How did the witnesses come across the crime (penetration)?
Jesus lesson is good to us but the repercussions on Christianity was that Jesus threw out the window the Major Commandments under the New Covenant. Even though Sermon on the Mount, he reaffirms these Major Commandments, they are out of the windows.
Today, heterosexual sex is rampant in Public and we encroach on everyone rights in Public. But when the homosexual demand the same sexual rights in Public, we deny them. BTW, I am not homosexual neither I am for homosexuality. It is one of the greatest sin. But, what people do in their Privacy and not in Public, it is their business and their God’s business.
Even in Churches, the boy and girl friends hold hands or the boy has his arm across her. What kind of worshiping is this. This is Christianity business and not Islam, but the envelope is slowly, slowly being pushed on Islam.
If we have to protect the religion and ethics, the Christians have to change their ways, rather than make the Muslims like themselves. They have to go back to Major Commandments and Obey them.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Dear Nora,
@Nora : And that second Shi’a belief is what I’ve always just believed, though I never connected it to religion! Obviously, I should have; it just never occurred to me…
In Shia the Principles/Pillars of Islam are separate from Acts, such as Salat (Worshiping).
1. God is One (Monotheism), One God for All Creation.
2. He is a Just God.
@Nora : Could you please give us all an English translation of the 99 attributes — it would be very helpful if non-Muslims could get an appreciation of what you have in your faith that we don’t, at least not in that form (I kind of think we probably do but not with your focus). And we SOOOO need to understand your faith better.
Sure, I can only give you “one word” translation of it but it doesn’t do justice. Also, it show in which verses the Allah’s Attributes are shown. But with two caveats. According to Imam Ali (as) in his very first sermon:
1. Imam Ali reminds us that Allah’s 99 Attributes are One, we should not separate them. If we did, we will divide Allah and move away from Monotheism. For example as I already written in my above other post, Rahman is “unprejudiced Mercy” which no human being can be Rahman. Where as, Rahim is a “prejudiced Mercy”, so we humans can be Rahim but not Rahman. But both Rahman and Rahim can be viewed as contradictions, but they are not.
2. Second thing, Imam Ali tries to remind us, Allah’s Attributes are for us to know God, to understand Him. These attributes are created things, therefore the Creator cannot be Creation, thus we have to deny Him these Attributes. The Sunni didn’t understand that, how can we deny God the 99 Attributes which are in the Holy Quran.
Here is one of the site:
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/99names.htm
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Dear Nora,
Peace,
1. Do you know what Shema Ya’ Israel means?
2. Why it is not a prayer, rather twice daily allegiance?
Best regards,
Mohamed.
When the divine founder of us all, on his last night on earth, prayed for his disciples, his principle prayer was that they be one. And so do the Popes pray, at least since Vatican II, and so do I, and so should we all.
============================
The Pope may very well stop to pray for that and start DOING something for that.
It’s not difficult after all. All it needs is to repent, to renounce the many errors and distortions inflicted to the Word of God and to return to the Catholic Faith.
For the moment, he has just gone to the Jewish Wall to repent, I’m not able to tell of what precisely.
An internal struggle to the “Rabbinate”, I suppose……
@ Mohamed
With the Saker’s permit, I will answer to your questions.
Answer 1 – There is only One Church!
Answer 2 – There is only One Church!
Answer 3 – See the answers above (or look at their fruits, as the Lord did teach).
The development of human knowledge and memory are in Vedas. Vedas are oldest. Some script mention times when Kashmir was lake. It was some 40 000 years ago when mountain ridge broke due seismic activities. Someone was there, saw it and was passed down to our times. Before this check for Toba catastrophe theory and human DNA bottleneck. Also see Aratta Ukraine, Kamyana Mohyla, Black Sea deluge.
History is absolutely theory only. It was created to fit biblical view. But someone built Gobekli Teppe 14 000 years ago, or Puma Punku. And they were not primitive gatheters or hunters as they teach us in school.
Religion is not made by fairy tales but doctrines: good bad, angel devil etc. All those predate bible for long time. Q: What religion was Jesus? He was Essene. In his times judaism did not exist in form as we think. There were Zealots, saducees, essene and pharisee= parsi,pharsi= persians.
Biological descendants of biblical jews are palestinians. They were imprisoned by pharaoh after Sea people war as Pelesets-Pelestes. Akhenaton was influenced by vedas thru his wife Mitanni princes Nefertiti. She also could be Hittite. But Mitani were vedic. In Baalbec, I think Jupiter temple, there is as ornament swastika and hexagon. Bunch of pharaohs were – moses like Tuthmose etc. There is theory that Akhenaton was itself Moses.
Interesting in Sea people is that Labu-Libu Libya bear their name were blond-red with blue eyes. Vedic goddes Tara-Ishtar, Ostara- was portrayed blond with blue eyes. Hill of Tara in Ireland. But she was also called Terra Mari= Mother of Earth. Mari was center figure in basque religion and their symbol Lauburu is kind of svastika. Must know that basque-r1b DNA- left eurasia 15 000 years ago. Inhabitants of british isles are basques.
Heard Tuatha de Danaan? Ireland? Tuatha transformed to Teuton. Danaan= children of Danu. Danu was vedic goddes of water. All rivers heading to the Black Sea bear her name. Apropo. Lithuanian language is sanskrit as was language of all balto-slavs including Prussians who were genocided by Teutonic knights during Northern Crusades.
Ancient god Perkunos= Perun, Perseus.
10 commandements are from chapter 125 of Egyptian book of dead or Papyrus of Ani/Agni. Russian word ogon or english ignite. Vedic Noah was Manu-english man- he became Menos/Menes in Egypt and Minos on Crete.
All ancient greek scholars studied in Bharat. Vedas are not religious book as we think about bible. Vedas means knowledge-science. Math, geometry etc.
Hebrew language is dialect of Akkadian and was not official in this days Israel since 4BC. It was aramaic as official language of Chaldean empire. Search for pictures of Chaldean patriarch as well. You will see orthodox jew. It is less likely that rulers copy ruled.
Give you some hints.
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/art_photo_fourteen.htm
http://www.richardcassaro.com/
Here are aryans.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:R1a1a_distribution.png
book: Buddha-Messiahs: Yeshu, Essene Jesus Of The Gnostic Nazoreans.
http://agniveer.com/manu-smriti-and-women/
http://euro-synergies.hautetfort.com/archive/2010/01/25/ae60196e49090f6b53e3273e69712217.html
This is very important. You can find origin swastika and kolovrat. I always suspected that it was constelation of stars.
http://www.indoeurohome.com/rohina.html
http://www.michaelsherlock.org/forum/old-testament-frauds-plagiarisms/the-chaldean-genesis/
http://www.pyracantha.com/Z/zjc3.html
http://www.indoeurohome.com/Meluhha-Dilmun.html
http://www.the-truth-seekers.org/ZOROAS~1.htm
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v4/y1883_075.htm
The development of human knowledge and memory are in Vedas. Vedas are oldest. Some script mention times when Kashmir was lake. It was some 40 000 years ago when mountain ridge broke due seismic activities. Someone was there, saw it and was passed down to our times. Before this check for Toba catastrophe theory and human DNA bottleneck. Also see Aratta Ukraine, Kamyana Mohyla, Black Sea deluge.
History is absolutely theory only. It was created to fit biblical view. But someone
@ yt and Nora
You can go here for an explanation of the Symbol of our Faith:
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/creed.htm
I recommend this site generally to get a good Orthodox didactic. Bishop Alexander (eternal memory) has done a wonderful pastoral service with this website.
For the rest, we fall and rise, fall again and again we rise, and so forth and so on.
The Christian task is a permanent struggle, it never ends until our last breath.
Only some of the Saints are able to fulfill what is needed to achieve union with the God’s Energies already in this life.
The rest of us just do their best and for what will be missing (a huge part) we trust the mercy of the Lord, because we love Him with all our heart, notwithstanding our miseries and weakness.
So we “keep our head in Hell but despair not”!
Anyway, to cultivate that incredible gift which is the Faith and make Her blossom, you should stop thinking or studying Christ. What is needed is to start LIVING Christ. Living by His Word.
Living by His Word means also living in the Church, the only One Church.
I can tell you that it’s almost impossible to get the strength you need for the task, to live Christ (the only real meaning of being a Christian) without the help of the Church and of His Mysteries (so-called Sacraments) which the Church only can administrate.
Without Her guide, without communing to His Body and Blood (and DISCERNING Them, lest you eat and drink you damnation), without the support of the Holy Spirit Who only in Her does operate, without rendering the cult to God with the Divine Liturgy, without examining constantly yourself through the Confession, you are on your own and on your own you are lost, dragged down by the bonds of this world and the total deception which rules it.
To paraphrase a very apt metaphor, if we compare the salvation to the crossing of the Pacific Ocean, inside the Church (I must stress it once again, there is only ONE Church) you try it with a galleon, outside Her with a raft without oars.
All of this always remembering that God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy!
WizOz,
When I put the Resurrection second, I was trying to look at it the way it is often practiced since a lot of ostensibly good Christians here either don’t believe in the Resurrection or have doubts they talk about in private among themselves. I thought about starting with it — that’s certainly the standard format (!) — but thought I’d go for what seems to me would be the defining characteristic for an outsider, and then go to the heart of things.
Mohamed,
I Wikied the Shema Yisrael but it sounds like a prayer to me. Where does the allegiance part come from?
@I don’t believe that below are Jesus’ words due to their repercussions on Christianity.
“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”
My friend Mahomed,
I propose you a little exercise. What if you read the text in full and try to figure out yourself what the Christ ment?
“They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and SIN NO MORE”.
@nora
“And we SOOOO need to understand your faith better. “
This is a supplication taught by Ali ibn Abi Talib (as). It contains most of those names Mohammad mentions. It is also believed to contain “Ism Azam” or a Great name of Allah. Something like a password, invoking which can make things happen. It is to be recited with ritual purity. The Arabic sounds amazing, if you understand the words it’s even better.
A back story of the “Dua” is given in the beginning. But it does not mention that the boys father had forgiven him, but died when they were on their way to Mecca. He intended to pray for his son at the Kaba.
Mindfriedo
@nora
http://www.duas.org/mashlool.htm
Mindfriedo
@ Mohamed
My dear, I did provide you with the link to St. Nikolai dissertation about that Gospel passage so that you READ it.
At bottom, though, I must thank you because you have masterfully evoked the difference between Christians and …., well, pretty much everybody else.
Christians are those who listen to the Christ’s Words and try hard to keep them.
The others listen and after will start telling where Christ had it wrong and what should be done about it.
We also have a man in Rome telling us continually since the last millennium that the Revelation is a work in progress (and of course, he is in charge of the progress) and that the Saviour teachings need to be constantly perfected (by the likes of Cesare Borgia and various sodomites among the others). Go figure!
We have never been impressed too much by such pretenses, and yet he (technically) still can boast a succession from the Holy Apostles.
You can understand then, I hope, that what you think about Jesus shortcomings is absolutely insignificant.
Therefore, with your permit, we’ll continue to refrain from stoning to death a sinner (and that woman DID sin, be sure!), no matter how much we despise his/her sin.
I’ve already said it, the Law has been accomplished and overcome by Christ. The Lord did keep the Commandments but discharged about everything else contrived by Pharisees to yoke the people or by Moses because of the “hardness of their heart”.
To the sinner we, keeping His Word, offer mercy and ask repentance. If they don’t change their ways, well, what is waiting for them when they will depart from this life is bad enough.
Our understanding is that there is no repentance in Hell.
For the rest, your points about the Septuagint are barren. It must be because you, as Muslims, are not used to miracles.
Under this aspect, instead, we are literally spoiled. But you must understand: it’s easy to be spoiled when the Lord celebrate His Resurrection every year with you.
https://www.google.lv/?gws_rd=cr&ei=T257U8LQDe_34QTv1YCIBA#q=the+holy+light+in+jerusalem
I don’t know what kind of Christians you know and see where you live. From what you say, they must be those billions of wannabees ruined by their pastors, wolves in sheep clothing.
The Lord DID NEVER FORCE anyone. And we keep His Word!
If you ask, we will gladly teach you about the Saviour, but that’s all!
The Peace of the Lord be with you, if you want.
If you don’t, let that Peace return on me.
Be sure anyway, we pray for everybody.
Dearest Friend WizOZ,
WizOz : I propose you a little exercise. What if you read the text in full and try to figure out yourself what the Christ meant?
“They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Thank you for posting the text again. I have read it lots of times. Yes, according to the mob, she was caught in the very act. Fine:
01. Who did she have the act with?
02. Where is he, why he is not being punished and/or brought for punishment too. Why?
03. How did the mob come upon the very act?
04. Were they both, she and he committing the act in Public?
05. Or, she and he were committing the act behind closed doors?
06. How did the mob know she and he committing the act behind closed doors?
07. Who told the mob, or the mob suspected?
08. Did the mob then witness the penetration with their own eyes?
09. God’s Law and not Moses Law till today demands that that the proven adulterers should be stoned to death. They brought her for stoning, why didn’t they bring him for stoning?
10. Did the mob took upon themselves to forgive him and just only bring her to Jesus for punishment?
11. Why didn’t Jesus ask for him?
12. By Jesus forgiving her, proved her guilt, but the he (man) went guilt free and unidentified, Why?
13. And, many, many more questions?
God’s Laws doesn’t change from Adam till the end of the World. The Major Commandments are still there to be observed until today.
Yes, I can understand about true repentance and forgiveness. But the above story makes mockery of both. Plus:
@WizOz : 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him.
The above basically set up a group of people, a religion, which for the last 2014 years till today is being persecuted by the Christians. Jesus preached Love, but they are consumed by Hate.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Dearest Nora,
@Nora : Mohamed, I Wikied the Shema Yisrael but it sounds like a prayer to me. Where does the allegiance part come from?
It is a prayer, but it considered Allegiance to Monotheistic God, at least twice Daily.
Here it is and see about bad it is translated into English language:
“Hear O’ Israel (Jacob), the Lord is our God, the Lord is One” (Shema Yisrael Adonai eloheinu Adonai ehad )
The word to watch here is, “ehad” and see how badly it is translated. Let us see if we see the same word in the Quran and see how badly it is translated too.
The word for “One” in Arabic is “Wahid”, which it is 1 of the 99 Attributes of God.
112.001 Qul huwa Allahu ahad
112.001 Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
112.002 Allahu alsamad
112.002 Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
112.003 Lam yalid walam yoolad
112.003 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
112.004 Walam yakun lahu kufuwan ahad
112.004 And there is none like unto Him.
Al-Qur’an, 112.001-004 (Al-Ikhlas [Sincerity])
Let us see how it is translated in both Shema Ya’ Israel and Quran:
In Shema : “ehad” as “One”
In Quran in Verse 1 : “ahad” as “the One and Only”
In Quran in Verse 4: “ahad” as “unto Him”
All the above are very crude translations. Wikipedia tries to give some kind of hint:
“The literal word meanings are roughly as follows:
Echad — the unified and cardinal number one”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shema_Yisrael
What is the difference between “wahid – one” and “ahad”
“wahid – one” can be multiplied, divided, made into parts, can be made into summation. Thus, “wahid – one” can become Holy Trinity.
But “ahad” as Wikipedia tried to explain it is, “the unified and cardinal number one”. It cannot be multiplied, made parts, can’t be made into summation. Allah (God) is One Unit, and it can not be made into Holy Trinity.
One has to know the language to understand TaNaKh and Holy Quran.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Dearest friend WizOz,
I don’t believe that below are Jesus’ words due to their repercussions on Christianity.
“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”
I do believe that Jesus words are profound, but these were not meant for the occasion, in which they were used. Also, the Anglo Christians in the West have made a mockery of True Repentance. True Repentance is to God Only, just like Jacob wrestling with Elohim and eventually overcoming the Mercy of Elohim. True Repentance requires one should truly change in future for True Repentance to be accepted by Elohim.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Dearest Saker,
Peace,
@Saker : In contrast, Islam has no other scriptural basis that itself or, rather, the book it produced: the Quran.
Islam is very scriptural. Quran is the Scripture from God. Then we have the total Sunnah of Prophet (saws), which consists of:
1.Oral Traditions – which are called, “Sahih Sitta – Six Authenticated Books”. Each One Book of the Six Books, contain massive, massive volumes.
2. Witnessing the Prophet doing something/anything. These Books are again very voluminous.
3. History of the Prophet. Ibn Ishaq was the first person after 80 years from the death of the Prophet, who put the Prophet’s History into Writings. There were hundreds other very soon.
4. Massive knowledge within 100 years of Prophet death. Lots of Books, Books and Books. Within the same period, Islam was at its height in science, philosophy, knowledge and so forth.
@Saker : Obviously, like Luther, he was not aware of the LXX.
But Luther was inspired.
Prophet Mohammad was a True Semite, who spoke the Semitic languages. The Arabs were at the time either Jews, Christians or Idol Worshipers. The TaNaKh was in Hebrew and the umpteen Gospels were mostly in Arabic and some in Aramaic and Hebrew.
Why would Prophet Mohammad need the transliterated LXX, which was cooked by Greeks to control the masses. Mohammad was a True Semite and he had the Original Books in Semitic Languages.
@Saker : Modern Judaism is really nothing else but an “anti-Christianity” while Islam is a faith which appeared ex-nihilo and has no basis in either Jewish or Christian scripture or oral tradition.
When Prophet Mohammad was 52 years old, he moved from Mecca to Yatrib (now Medina) for his last 10 years of life. At the end of his, when Mecca become Islamic, he moved back to his home town of Mecca.
In Yatrib, the Muslims were very, very poor. They used to live at the bottom of the massive mountain. The massive mountain was occupied by 3 very large, powerful and rich Jewish Tribes. You should read about the Constitutions of Medina (Yatrib), which he signed with these Jews. This will give you an idea why Mohammad was a real secularist and for each and every individual rights, including women, without creed, color or race. Allowing women to own properties.
The Jews and Christians used to come to Mohammad to dispense justices based on their laws. They wanted to test and embarrass him the he is not a True Prophet. Mohammad used to listen to them and then he will open their Scriptures and point to the applicable laws. A True Prophet, who performed lots of Miracles.
In the end, of course the same Jews back stabbed him.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
@Mahomed
I can’t but agree with Maedhros:
“You can understand then, I hope, that what you think about Jesus shortcomings is absolutely insignificant”. You are wasting your time, and ours, trying (against the advice of another Muslim friend of ours)to force down our throats the Islamic view of Christianity. Let me tell you again that it is wrong. But don’t be worried, we Christians don’t behead Muslims preaching Islam shouting, Jesus is great!
Dear Friend WizOz,
@WizOZ : “You can understand then, I hope, that what you think about Jesus shortcomings is absolutely insignificant”.
This is my last post. I don’t consider that Jesus had any shortcomings in his entire life. As a Muslim and more as a Shia, I consider Jesus to be Manifest of God and Sinless.
However, I consider this not Jesus shortcomings, but corruption of text.
I just wanted to set the record straight without any hard feeling.
Peace on you and your entire family. And, so is Peace on Maedhros and his entire family. Please forgive me for any of my shortcomings.
Peace,
Mohamed.
@muhammad and WizOz(applies to both of you)
Hawkeye: My father warned me about you…
Cora Munro: [interupting] Your Father?
Hawkeye: Chingachgook, he warned me about people like you.
Cora Munro: Oh, did he?
Hawkeye: He said “Do not try to understand them”.
Cora Munro: What?
Hawkeye: Yes, and, “do not try to make them understand you. That is because they are a breed apart and make no sense”.
@WizOz
“we Christians don’t behead Muslims preaching Islam shouting, Jesus is great!”
I think you mean this out of cynicism and are not being serious. After getting fed up of your friend not knowing when to stop.
But in case you are not, Christians do not behead people and cry Jesus is Great. But they used to take the Lords name and do a lot worse. And, in this day and age, in their lust for wealth and greed they empower dictoators: the Ben Ali’s and the Mubaraks, al Qaeda, warlords, “awakening councils,” Taliban types to plunder and loot the wealth of the Muslims. Then they go and provide aid in the name of their Lord. Their cruelty is a lot more sophisticated than the crudeness of a “raghead.” Also the method they use to convert, when you are down and out and at your most vulnerable, is more sneaky and sinister than a simple choice of a knife to the throat.
For if the takefiris liver eater is a “Muslim” then a zealot melanomaniac like Bush is a “Christian.” I don’t think so and I don’t think you do either.
I think you both, Muhammad and WizOz, and I guess me too, we are all a lot alike. We are all too much in love with our faith and love each other less.
Sorry for being offensive and if I had the chance I would kill that man screaming Allaho Akbar and beheading a Christian.
Mindfriedo
Oh and: the scripture has been very much corrupted, as you can see when comparing it to the dead sea scrolls for example (you wonder why they only released the non-biblical parts – that’s why).
Not that it matters – it is really a book of law and not a religious one. Its sole use was/is to enable kings and tzars via “blessing” their right to rule and it is still the very base of the legal system in the whole western world. You can still walk into a court with a bible in your hand and say “this is my law and it trumps all your laws” and you’ll do fine, provided you know the relevant parts really well.
For if the takefiris liver eater is a “Muslim” then a zealot melanomaniac like Bush is a “Christian.” I don’t think so and I don’t think you do either.
==============================
Most assuredly, a Christian is as Christian does!
I think it’s the same for Muslims (even if, admittedly, I don’t really know what it takes to be a Muslim).
In the first case, they are an absolutely tiny minority. The rest will vainly scream “Lord! Lord!” at that day. The Lord’s answer will be “I do not know you!”.
I suspect it’s the same also in the second case.
@Mindfriedo,
My friend,
You don’t do yourself and your coreligionists any favour by excusing the beheading of Christians, the more when you try to explain it as a response to “the method they use to convert, when you are down and out and at your most vulnerable, is more sneaky and sinister than a simple choice of a knife to the throat”.
What has the following to do with the Ben Ali’s, Mubaraks, and others who “plunder the wealth of Muslims”?:
“Meriam Yehya Ibrahim, who has a young son and is married to a Christian from South Sudan, violated Islamic sharia law, the court said. She insists she was raised Christian, not Muslim.
The court also ordered Ibrahim to be flogged for having sexual relations with her husband, since her marriage is not recognized by officials.
Ibrahim refused a court order Sunday giving her several days to renounce her Christian faith, which resulted in the sentencing Thursday.
Ibrahim, currently jailed with her son, will be allowed to give birth and raise her second child until the age of 2 years but then faces execution. Sudanese authorities refuse to allow Ibrahim’s son to reside with her husband because the husband is Christian”. (LA Times 15 May, 2014).
Or with: “Muslim converts to Christianity are even under attack in Europe. In Norway alone, for example, two Iranian converts out for a walk were stabbed with knives by masked men shouting “infidels!” One of the men stabbed had converted in Iran, was threatened there, and immigrated to Norway, thinking he could escape Islam’s apostasy penalty. Earlier, an Afghan convert to Christianity was scalded with boiling water and acid at a Norwegian refugee processing center: “If you do not return to Islam, we will kill you,” his attackers told him”.
Do you think that the revulsion of the Europeans for this kind of behaviour amounts to “discrimination” and Islamophobia?
@WizOz
What has the following to do with the Ben Ali’s, Mubaraks, and others who “plunder the wealth of Muslims”?:
Sudan is a product of Wahabi thought. Saudi Arabia which has educated and enlightened the Sudanese is an ally of the USA and hence of your Europeans that feel repulsed. Evil begets evil. The Muslims in these countries keep getting robbed by these despots in the name of the Islam the “Christians” have helped spread. It becomes an issue when a Christian woman is being stoned to death. How the faith of a person makes a difference.
Two Iranian converts…
If kangaroo courts run in the name of Islam pass for sharia law, I guess then Islam is to blame.
Let’s make life in Iran as hard as possible. Let’s blame the mullahs for all of this. And soon Iran will be a Christian country. It’s all headed in the right direction.
You don’t do yourself and your coreligionists any favour by excusing the beheading of Christians…
I’m not excusing the act. I am pointing out the difference in the level of callous cruelty and sophistication of both acts. In one case there’s a madman chopping off someone’s head(not just Christians) which is easy to blame and say is wrong, and impossible to justify, and in another there is a seemingly planned process. First bomb them, than aid them. The latter is harder for anyone to condemn even if it is more sneaky.
You are right though. There is no need for me to defend or dissociate the actions of zealots with Islam. The crazies in Islam are too many and the propaganda/vilification against Islam, not the crazies, too great.
I could list cases in which The prophet and His successor spared people, just as Jesus spared the adulteress, but i don’t think there’s any more need. I can post links to videos of how the American Christian marines were wonder struck by the etiquette of their Shia opponents in Iraq, but I doubt that will make any difference either. I could point out that it’s mostly Muslims who are protecting the Christians against “Muslims who are allied to Christians” in Syria. I could point out that Iran is the strongest ally of Armenia and that when Armenia fought Azerbaijan, a Shia country, Iran sided with Christian Armenia.
It does not make any difference because wherever I look there are more examples of Muslims embarrassing their faith. And to those whose minds are made up, these are the examples that matter.
I feel you know the difference but you see a link between the practices of these individuals and their faith. That there are too many instances to disassociate or differentiate. That the fundamental flaw is with the system. My apologies for assuming. All I can say is that for me the only examples to emulate are my imams. And I see no flaw in them.
Your friend
Mindfriedo
@Maedhros
Yes it’s like you say for Islam also.
We believe that the punishment for one who is guided will be more severe.
Say Jesus(as) or Muhammad(sawa) preached to a man, and that man sinned, and their message did not reach a second man, and the second man sinned, then the sin of the guided man is greater. He has to answer for more.
In Islam sins against the Creator can be forgiven by the Creator. Apostasy included. But sins against another individual are to be settled between the oppressor and the wronged. Much like the logic in your prayer “as we forgive those who sin against us.” A fundamental belief is that He is a just God.
Mindfriedo
@but you see a link between the practices of these individuals and their faith.
And you are trying to persuade me that there is no link? That Wahabism draw its inspiration from the Christians and not from the Quran?
You lost me then.
Jesus either being God (according to Christians) or being a Greatest Prophet (according to Islam) knew the woman had committed adultery.
However, Justice requires from a Just God, that adultery is an act between two parties (a man and a woman). Thus, the Justice of Just God required they both be brought in front of Jesus and the Crime Scene to be created. With Witness giving proper Testimonies, under Oath and their Testimonies to be proven and then accepted. In Islam, the concept of Innocent until proven Guilty applies. The Women was not guilty because the mobs were screaming she was Guilty. Her Guilt has to be Proven, so is the Guilt of the other Party. It takes two to Tango.
Therefore, I am not saying that Jesus in wrong, as he is one of the Greatest Prophet in Islam. His words are profound and his passions for forgiveness is well known.
What is questioned here is the Corrupt Text.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
@Mohamed
Give it a rest. You have mentioned it umpteen times. Your point was understood long ago.
Did it ever occur to you that Jesus (as) was maybe given Ilm e Ghaib and that he knew whether the woman had sinned or not?
There is a similar incident where a man approached Ali (as) and mentioned that he had sinned. He repeatedly asked Ali to punish him, but Ali told him “go away you have only dreamed.” Ali knew the man was genuinely remorseful, why did he not carry out the just sentence of a just God? He waited to be pushed to do it.
There is that incident where a man approached Mohammad (sawa) and asked if he would be forgiven. Until the point he did not spell out his bad deeds he was forgiven.
These are incidents that are not always as simple as they seem.
Mindfriedo
@WizOz
Maybe.
Wahhabism takes its lessons from ibn Tammiyah and Abdul Wahab. Both are more or less influenced from the Ummayad line of thinking. A distortion of Islam and one flat/literal/uninspired interpretation of the Quran.
No, not influenced by Christianity but backed by regimes who claim to uphold Christian values. A thinking based on the distortion of the Bible if you like.
Here’s a nice line from Princess Mononoke. It’s the basic premise of us being here discussing these issues.
Lady Eboshi: What exactly are you here for?
Prince Ashitaka: To see with eyes unclouded by hate.
Hopefully you will meet some good Muslim whose behaviour might move you more than my empty words.
Mindfriedo
Salam Mindfriedo,
@Mindfriedo : Did it ever occur to you that Jesus (as) was maybe given Ilm e Ghaib and that he knew whether the woman had sinned or not?
1. I have no doubt that the woman was guilty.
2. Neither, I have doubt that Jesus being one of the Greatest Prophet in Islam knew about her guilt. As Jesus was 24/7 connected with God.
3. Also, Jesus words are profound, the way he forgave her. Jesus words, “Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First …” are very beautiful, profound and though provoking.
But:
1. Jesus being the Representative of the Just Ruler on Earth, would have conducted a Proper Just Court, to show How God’s Justice Is Dispensed. To teach all of us a lesson in God’s Justice. Once that was done, then I would have expected him to forgive the culprits, with those profound words, “Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First …”
2. It set up a group of people, mainly Jewish People for persecution throughout centuries. Creating hatred in those beautiful Christians, who so much believe in Jesus 2 Commandments in Red. Jesus Message throughout his life was Love and not Hate.
3. It served as strong purpose to basically throw the 10 Major Commandments out of the Windows.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
@Everyone
Finally found it from Saker’s quote about Septuagint:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint
“The Septuagint is also useful for elucidating pre-Masoretic Hebrew: many proper nouns are spelled out with Greek vowels in the LXX, while contemporary Hebrew texts lacked vowel pointing. One must, however, evaluate such evidence with caution since it is extremely unlikely that all ancient Hebrew sounds had precise Greek equivalents”
See it discusses precisely the state of the Hebrew Language at the time of translation to LXX that, “contemporary Hebrew texts lacked vowel pointing”.
Secondly, “it is extremely unlikely that all ancient Hebrew sounds had precise Greek equivalents”
The above is very, very true as Arabic language has more than 200 sounds.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
@Nora, james and Maedhros
@Nora,
Thank you for explaining belief the way you see it. I was coming more from the angle of trying to understand what is really the true english meaning of ‘belief’ (is it ‘certainty’ or not) in the religious context. Now i see faith and beliefs (and other religious persons as well) are far more a struggle for you than i thought they are.
We all want to _have_ a truth in our brain/mind about things that are important to us for one reason or another. Until we don’t _know_ the truth (based on proven facts), or have _faith_ in the truth (we _believe_ in it without the luxury of proven facts) we feel uneasy to a degree. Some people more than others.
I for myself have developed in a way that for me there is no problem in not knowing the truth to everything right away, also, i do not need (nor want) to believe in something in the absence of proof. I am fine to say ‘i don’t know’ and if i’m really interested in it, i strive to study and investigate further, to come closer to the truth. To me it seems that really the brains (and souls one could say) of humans develop differently, so some people may become religious more easily, while others don’t – depending on the way they have been brought up. I suspect, please correct me if i’m wrong, that religious people find peace of mind with religion and if that faith is shaken for some reason it generates an uneasy feeling. So then they try to solve that problem by restoring their faith.
So, there i see one main difference between religious people and me. A religious person _wants_ to believe, while i sometimes am _forced_ to believe something (for which there is no immediate proof at hand), but i try to avoid that. I scrutinize many (so called established facts) of worldly topics such as physics, medicine, economy and more, just to find out that many of these are outright lies, which the majority of people really believe in.
That is not to say that religious people don’t do that. The religious commenters here and The Saker are a good example. Many intelligent religious people scrutinize everything of importance, strife to find out the real facts of worldly topics – they are not happy to have a fixed opinion in the form of a belief for these. This attitude however, as i observe it, changes dramaticaly with religious topics, where i’d say religious people _want_ to believe. To me, this seems to be an unnatural thing, kind of like a split in the personality. Could it be that this is the struggle you are talking about, or is the struggle different and there is no problem with this (alleged by me) split in attitude?
Of course, i might be wrong in some things i just wrote and am fine to adjust my current opinion with new facts or insight.
@james
I see, sounds good, i guess i will have a look then :)
@Maedhros
Good link, that page is what i was looking for in terms of core beliefs, explaining to me what they are in plain english.
“Anyway, to cultivate that incredible gift which is the Faith and make Her blossom, you should stop thinking or studying Christ. What is needed is to start LIVING Christ. Living by His Word.”
To make it clear, all interest i have in that topic is thinking about it, studying it to a dregree, with the goal to better understand religious people. I won’t become religious, i don’t want to, i don’t miss it. To me it’s incomprehensible how someone can be really believing in what you’ve linked (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/creed.htm). That shows me that i do not understand religious people. At the same time, i suspect that truly religious people _cannot_ understand non-religious people as well. We live in two worlds.
-yt
Thank you, Saker, for keeping comments open on this post. I am coming to it with deep apologies for my rude behavior towards you when you were explaining your views on this subject.
I was conflicted, because many of your opinions about Orthodoxy conflict with mine, until I realized that really this is not important. Many folk with whom I happily converse have opinions much further apart than yours and mine, and whereas you mightn’t think of me as an Orthodox Christian by your standards (and you have a greater sense of the Church canons than I do, that is certain), I most certainly think of you as an Orthodox Christian, even while I disagree with many of your opinions (and might on this very forum – politely I hope!)
I am hoping my apology will strengthen you for the good work you do on this blog. We are still in Easter, and like you I have discovered that Russian Orthodox in Russia can learn much from the Orthodox in America who have kept the tradition ongoing.
I particularly love the coming feast, when the blind man did not know who Jesus was but he did know what he had done for him. I think it is one of the most humorous passages in the Gospels – in the little church where I was chrismated on the Feast of the Samaritan Woman (last week’s feast) the word ‘heretic’ was never spoken. That’s where I am coming from.
Blessings, and Christos Voskrese! for this final Easter Sunday (although all Sundays are Easter, and I remember a Romanian priest shown on tv one time who always used the Easter greeting – what a wonderful man!)
I ask your forgiveness, in the attitude beautifully expressed in the telling of the tale of Saint Mary of Egypt, who was a sinful woman as am I myself, but whose experiences in the desert purified her after long days and nights before her wondrous encounter with Saint Zossima.
I am nowhere near that purification but she is the saint I follow.
@Juliana: Dear Juliana, Christ is Risen!
I am immensely relieved and extremely happy that you have decided to come back. The day you left I felt an immense sadness and it is a joy for me to see you back here. One thing though – though I live in the USA since 2002 I never had any contact with “American Orthodoxy”. I always say that my soul is Russian, but my faith is Orthodox (without a national label attached to it). As priest friend of mine once said “when the angels are ministering, what difference does our nationality make?” If anything, my Orthodoxy is supra-national, Patristic and traditionalist, even if my own soul is Russian to the core. So when you say “Russian Orthodox in Russia can learn much from the Orthodox in America” I want to reply “all of modern Orthodoxy can learn much from the Orthodoxy of the Fathers” and it is their heritage which, above all else, I strive to preserve as best I can.
Lastly, those comments which I made about what I see is the current condition of Russian Orthodoxy and which offended and hurt you – I did not make them with hate or glee, but with immense pain in my heart. This is not something that I enjoy discussing because for me this is a topic worthy of tears. But my conscience also compels me to speak out, especially when so many do not. So please forgive me and please understand that my loyalty in matters of Russian Orthodoxy is to the New Martyrs of Russia and to their witness. I do not condemn anybody, I just feel that I have to uphold and repeat that which they died for.
Thank you again for your comment today which truly gives me joy and hope!
Blessings to you and Voistinu Voskrese!!
The Saker