by Zamir Awan for the Saker Blog
Chinese foreign ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying said: “positive consensus” on resolving the latest border issue was achieved following “effective communication” through diplomatic and military channels. New Delhi said the two countries had agreed to “peacefully resolve” the border flare-up after a high-level meeting between army commanders. India’s Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Chinese leader Xi Jinping had sought to ease the tensions at summits over the past two years when they agreed to boost border communications between their militaries.
Tensions flare on a fairly regular basis between the two regional powers over their 3,500-kilometre frontier, which has never been properly demarcated. Thousands of troops from the two nuclear-armed neighbors have been involved in the latest face-off since May in India’s Ladakh region, bordering Tibet – before signs in recent days that a resolution was in sight.
The recent issue arose when India fortified its position in Ladakh disputed territory, which India included in its union territory on August 5, 2019, unilaterally. In contrast, it was a recognized disputed territory, and both countries having a claim over the area. India was illegally trespassing and constructing defense facilities across the border into Chinese territory in the Galwan Valley region, leaving Chinese border troops no other option but to make necessary moves in response. India wants to build an airbase in the disputed territory. It is worth mentioning that, under a defense agreement, between the US and India, both countries can have access to each other’s military bases and have the right to use in case of any war-like situations. It was a direct threat to China if American uses Ladakh Airbase against China. That was the immediate concern of the Chinese side and left with no option to stop construction works in the disputed territory.
In India, the focus has been turned to the Durbuk- Shyok-Daulet Beg Oldi Road (DSBDBO) along the Galwan River — which runs more or less parallel to the LAC (Line of Actual Control) and improves India’s access to the Karakoram Highway — as the possible trigger point for the latest flare-up between China and India. India has designs to cut the land link between China and Pakistan to harm CPEC (China-Pakistan Economic Corridor). That is why India was fortifying its infrastructure close to Khunjrab-Pass, connecting China and Pakistan.
However, China remains much more concerned about the newly constructed 80-kilometer stretch from Dharchula to Lipulekh (the gateway to Kailash-Mansarovar, a site for Hindu pilgrimage in Tibet), completed on April 17 and inaugurated on May 8 by Indian Defense Minister Rajnath Singh. That may have led Beijing to review the situation at the China-India borders.
In the Chinese assessment, India’s construction activity in the disputed areas with Nepal has affected China’s border security in Tibet. By building the 80 km stretch (76 km has been completed recently, and the last 4 km of the road to Lipulekh Pass is expected to be completed by the year’s end), India has moved its frontier vis-a-vis China, gaining direct access to the concrete highway in Purang county in Tibet. It has thereby changed the status quo in the region. China already has border defense roads in Purang county on the middle border, and Cona county on the southern border with India and a Chinese airport in Purang is scheduled to be completed in 2021. Despite its preparedness on its side of the border, China is concerned that India still has much room for maneuver, using Nepal’s geographical advantage to challenge China’s dominant position in the region.
As a matter of fact, India has disputes with all its neighbors like China, Nepal, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Srilanka, and the Maldives. Indian expansionist theory of “greater India” is the cause of real trouble. In the past, India has occupied some of its neighboring independent sovereign states like Sikkim, Nagaland, Jammu & Kashmir, Hyderabad, Juna Garh, etc. India has a track record of aggression and coercion against its small neighbors. But may face a tough time from China. The lesson learned in the 1962 war, Indians should not have to develop enmity with China.
Historically, the border disputes existed since 1947, when India got independence from British rule. This was the era of the Chinese revolution when a weak, corrupt and naïve government of Nationalist Party (Guo Ming Dang) was in power in Beijing, and the Communist Party of China, led by Chairman Mao, was over-engaged in the power struggle. The Government in China at that time was not strong, not stable, or not visionary and were fighting for their own survival. They were least bothered with their International borders, whereas, they were focusing on their grip on Beijing city only, as a symbol of their Government. The Britsh demarcation of the border was unjust and one-sided. There were Chinese territories marked into Indian control and vis-à-vis. The people’s republic of China was established in 1949, since then, China was demanding a rational border, but India was denying and delaying to resolve the border disputes.
It is worth understanding the importance of Tibet, which is a region in East Asia covering Tibetan Plateau spanning about 2.5 million sq.km, with an average elevation of 4000 – 5000 meters above the sea. It is the major source of waters for China, India, Pakistan, Nepal, Myanmar, Laos, Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam. Several major rivers have their source in the Tibetan Plateau. These include the Yangtze, Yellow River, Indus River, Mekong, Ganges, Salween and the Yarlung Tsangpo River (Brahmaputra River). Who rule over Tibet, will control the water. The Yarlung Tsangpo Grand Canyon, along the Yarlung Tsangpo River, is among the deepest and longest canyons in the World. Tibet is one of the most ancient civilizations, with its unique culture and traditions. India sponsored the Tibet Government in exile led by Dalai Lama, based in New Delhi, which is a permanent cause of tension between China and India. CIA classified documents revealed that the CIA helped India to establish Tibet exiled Government and used to pay them funding to date.
Since the last two decades almost, the growing US-India relations were also not considered in Chinese favor. The US was supporting India politically and diplomatically to join UNSC, NSG, and other International platforms to counter China. The US has been extending economic and military assistance to India generously, to strengthen India to contain China. The US-India cooperation in Education, S&T, High-tech, Advance Technologies, especially in Defense, is raising many questions. India has become a “Major Defense Partner” with the US. India is an active member of the Indo-Pacific Treaty with Japan, Australia, and the US. India is openly opposing Belt and Road Initiatives (BRI), which is included in the Chinese Constitution and mega initiative of the Chinese Government. China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC), which is a flagship project of BRI, India, is engaged in sabotaging and damaging it. India opposes China on all issues in the International platforms. Indian over-tilt toward the US is also alarming for China. India has become the largest beneficiary of US aid after the state of Israel. The US will not offer a “free lunch” to India, but rather task India to “Count China,” “Contain China,” and “Resist China’s Rise.”
The current geopolitics, especially the US-China rivalry, may add fuel to Sino-Indian tension. There are possibilities that the US may use this region as a battle-ground against China. Astrologists also predicts war in this region. The region is rather volatile and leading toward the danger of conflicts. It may not be a simple war between China and India but may engulf the whole region and world powers, including Russia and the US. Even it might spread to the Indian Ocean and the Pacific Ocean too. It will not be a simple conventional war but will be high tech, including cyber-war, electronic-ware-fare, Space-Technolgy, and Artificial Intelligence. All the lethal weapons will be used, especially China, India, and Pakistan are all nuclear states and possess enough piles of weapons to destroy each other completely. Extremists have hijacked the Government in India and visibly moving toward rivalry with all its neighbors.
It is worth mentioning that the population of China is 1.4 Billion, India 1.3 Billion, Pakistan 220 Million, Bangladesh 165 Million, the total population of this region is almost half of the Whole World’s population. Any misadventure may threaten half of the World. International Community may take serious notice and may step in to avert any disaster. We must think, not once or twice, but multiple times!
Author: Prof. Engr. Zamir Ahmed Awan, Sinologist (ex-Diplomat), Editor, Analyst, Non-Resident Fellow of CCG (Center for China and Globalization), National University of Sciences and Technology (NUST), Islamabad, Pakistan.
Modi/BJP/Hindutva could be said to be Asia’s rendition of the Ukronazis, indeed giving the same meaning (fascism) to the swastika. Like Ukraine, India is a mercilessly plundered country rife with poverty, oppression, corruption, and reactionary fanaticism. Most importantly, India’s and Ukraine’s so-called leaderships are happy to roll their countries fast and hard right into the gutter while trying to steer up all kinds of trouble to their immensely more successful, bigger, and stronger neighbouring countries. In short: Stupid, proud, and ugly.
Modi is doing what’s best for India, not to please you or your feelings. In a fractitious politics ridden country where coalition governments are the norm, Modi was handed a thumping majority and the first govt in 30 years to have an absolute majority in the lower house. This is second term, so people did have look at his past. When what his people want is what he has to deliver, who are you to question their policies? Just dropping hard right innuendos does not make it a fact.
India has great relations with neighbours. Just won’t take “kindness for weakness” interpretation anymore. The previous gay govt of UPI did and that’s how neighbours remained neighbours. They got what they wanted. No more. Russia is a great partner with big nuclear, defense and oil projects; e-visa travel and so on. The UAE and Iran and SA have invested heavily in the fuel infrastructure. Even Turkey might have been a friend if not for the Sultan shooting his mouth and trying to build a PK-MY-TK triangle that flopped. All the CIS countries get along just well. As you should know, good news does not travel.
China is bit of half and half. You can lay it on Pakistans feet for this mess. Sadly China is stuck with the deal and its like a bad clap. Will not go away and the rash bursts out every now and then. And China sticks to the deal because pakistan gifted a piece of Kashmir that does not belong to them and China was not smart to say no.
Modi is doing what’s best for India, not to please you or your feelings.
rise in hate crimes against minorities since modi came to power:
https://clarionindia.net/sharp-rise-in-hate-crimes-under-modi-2-0-shows-data/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/world/reports-of-hate-crime-cases-have-spiked-in-india/
https://time.com/5617161/india-religious-hate-crimes-modi/
economic slowdown under modi, GDP nearly halved from 7 to 3.1(Q1 2020, before covid19 pandemic):
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/gdp-growth-slows-to-3-1-in-q4-core-sector-output-contracts-38-1-in-april/articleshow/76090944.cms
When what his people want is what he has to deliver, who are you to question their policies?
read his comment again, he didnt question modi’s policies
India has great relations with neighbours. Just won’t take “kindness for weakness” interpretation anymore.
1.relation with bangladesh spoiled due to NRC-CAA
2.relation with nepal spoiled due to indian blockade of nepal during 2015 earthquake, bullying nepal to dictate constitutional changes according to it’s whims and not accepting old indian notes worth millions after demonetization.
(https://www.newsbytesapp.com/timeline/World/8708/49464/indian-demonetization-leaves-foreign-nationals-in-the-lurch)
(https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2015/nov/18/nepal-border-blockade-india-threatens-future-un-unicef)
(https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34968252)
3. relations with bhutan spoiled due to dokalam standoff between india and china, india not accepting back old notes after demonetization and India putting pressure on bhutan to stop it from joining BRI due to friendship treaty.
(https://thediplomat.com/2019/07/is-india-losing-its-grip-on-bhutan/)
4. relations with pakistan and china are always bad
5. relations with Maldives were rocky in between. Srilanka and maldives will eventually shift completely to chinese orbit
it’s nepal and bhutan who took “kindness for weakness” and got stung by india.
Russia is a great partner with big nuclear, defense and oil projects; e-visa travel and so on
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/conveyed-our-concerns-to-india-on-quad-on-multiple-occasions-russian-ambassador/articleshow/73333906.cms
The UAE and Iran and SA have invested heavily in the fuel infrastructure.
Gulf-
there is a big backlash against india in gulf due to indians in india and those residing in gulf indulging in hate against muslims and islam. Kuwait parliament issued a statement condemning the targeting of indian muslims by the modi regime.
(https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/3086752/gulf-states-push-back-against-islamophobia-imported-india-modi)
(https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/arabs-speaking-islamophobia-india-200423112102197.html)
(https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/05/gulf-states-backtracking-india/)
Iran-
india has cut oil imports with iran to zero under US pressure.
(https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-25/india-is-said-to-cut-imports-of-iranian-oil-to-zero-in-november-jmhy95z8)
and it’s not investing in Chabahar port as promised to iran.
(https://www.bourseandbazaar.com/articles/2019/8/28/indias-iran-port-plans-languish-despite-us-exemption)
Iran knows that india is USA’s satellite state and israel’s biggest strategic ally
Even Turkey might have been a friend if not for the Sultan shooting his mouth and trying to build a PK-MY-TK triangle that flopped.
lol, turkey won a contract to repair and build indian navy vessels!
(https://www.navaltoday.com/2019/06/10/turkeys-tais-picked-for-indian-navy-fleet-support-ship-design/)
People often compare modi with the buffoon called erdogan. At least erdogan achieved what he wanted. The guy grabed syrian lands, put military in libya to dominate Mediterranean, has alliance with Qatar and defies USA to buy S400 from russia and oil from Iran. Modi doesn’t have balls do to all these.
the quad is PK-MY-TK-IR (pakistan-malaysia-turkey-pakistan), dont forget iran.
China is bit of half and half. You can lay it on Pakistans feet for this mess. Sadly China is stuck with the deal and its like a bad clap. Will not go away and the rash bursts out every now and then.
China secured it’s energy route via CPEC and gained a port to Arabian sea, bypassing Malacca strait. A big strategic and military achievement for china.
And China sticks to the deal because pakistan gifted a piece of Kashmir that does not belong to them and China was not smart to say no.
Paakistan gave a big piece of land and china did accept it.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Pakistan_Agreement)
The usual standard saffron neo-nazis reply. “Please dont question us” ad nauseum. Perhaps battles are better settled on the battle field rather than the usual cyber tiger forums.
I would like to point out that one should look at the genocide of Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh that started in 1947 and continues, where there are any left. Then look again at Indias perceived flaws and see context. Those genocides were enabled by the British, who did similar throughout their Raj period.
It was also Britain and the US that allowed China to take thr Tibetan plateau. Think abouy logistics before railways. How could China claim ownership of Tibet, its absurd.
In addition, was is not US sponsorship of the Chinese communists, in addition to Soviet sponsorship, that helped them rise to power, after having spent WW2 parked out in the north west far from the population centres and the Japanese imperial army?
And this coincided with the US dropping funding for Chiang Kai Shieks nationalists.
Yes, unfortunately, recent events have reveal tge facts are as you say.
@Nussiminen: You don’t know what you’re talking about. India and China are enacting two different developmental models. It’s true that China’s economy is currently larger. However, that development has come at enormous environmental cost, as Western countries outsourced their polluting industries to China. India chose not to go down that path. I suspect that within 10-15 years, it will be widely acknowledged that India made the wiser decision.
By the way, you should watch your tone – describing India’s leadership.
Are you even aware that the pollution levels in Delhi and other North Indian cities is so extreme that even in the pre lockdown period schools had to be closed down because of it?
Indian pollution is worse than China’s and the Indian governments since the 1990s have officially held the position that environmentalists are foreign agents out to sabotage the country’s growth.
Indeed. I remember some major infrastructure accident when I was there in 73 and that too was blamed on A Foreign Power. As do many other Asian nations not just India.
”India and China are enacting two different developmental models.”
Agreed! Chinese model of decreasing poverty versus the Indian model of increasing poverty.
”By the way, you should watch your tone – describing India’s leadership.”
Calm down. In my view, India’s leadership is just like the West’s: It has got its heart in the right place. It’s the brain we gotta find!
Both governments want power, want money and want a docile populace. Your Chinese dream is just a dream, poverty reduction? What a joke! Both couldn’t give less of a ****! The only difference is, that Chinese are quite cunning in their approach to their economy. It’s a simple mercantilist ploy, just as in almost every other country before them (meaning countries from the West to the East). Difference is that Chinese challenge the American centric world system after the 90s. The SSSR did the same and imploded, because of ideological reasons – the Chinese communist, are only superficially communists, it defies even any sense to use labels like these anymore. The CCP is just the mob, colored in red, that’s it. I’m sure India’s government has mob characteristics too, but is nowhere near the heinous criminality and brutality of the CCP, which is in my humble opinion near Nazi-level. Following the economic and now military rise of China, I think all freedom, law, civilization loving people have to recognize, that supporting the CCP is an untenable position. At least with India, there is a fig-leaf of human rights, a semblance of freedom and nominal absence of racism. The Chinese are the complete opposite, at least if the population supports the CCP policies, which I have no reason to doubt. The world should unite around normal countries like Russia, India and smaller non-aligned countries, away from the hegemon and the wannabe Chinese one. I call all the capitalist hogs to unite and divest China and “invest” in smaller countries. Their greed and insatiable gluttony should be also redirected by force.
As the the world is in for a major beating by the elites (which CCP nobles are surely a part of [I recall correctly almost 15000 millionaires fled China in 2018 alone, 7500 Russian millionaires fled to the West!]) I’m not much optimistic about humanities future anyway and writing in a forum won’t change shyat, but it certainly feels good…
Indeed, china regime seems to have only got the brain! But too much brain (without heart) is going to make everyone as one’s enemy.
what tone do you want to use for a leadership that was a tea-boy on a railway platform (fact), statesmen don’t come from street people, that is the very reason they are statesmen because from the very beginning they are trained to lead with wisdom. Modi is going to lead into a disaster where India will fracture into many nations.
So, this blog is all about expressing voice against political overlords – elite families/groups running the world as to their whims and fancies.
> they are statesmen because from the very beginning they are trained to lead with wisdom.
So, you’re actually advocating for those overlords and not for us the common people.
By denigrating Modi’s humble background, you’re just showing disdain for all of us (the common oppressed people of this planet.)
India is the worst country I’ve ever visited. Filthy, full of scams, arrogant.
Xi/CPP/China could be said to be modern rendition of the British empire, colonizing smaller nations in Asia and Africa under the disguise of forging trade relationships. China is mercilessly plundering resources of these nations under the trap of debt causing poverty, oppression and corruption. Most importantly, China’s so-called leadership is happy to roll its country fast and hard right into the gutter while trying to sustain their brutal hold on its own population gasping for breath. It also happy to steers up all kinds of trouble to immensely more open, democratic and resourceful neighboring countries. In short: Stupid, proud, and ugly.
Nice try, but facts are stubborn things. It is very instructive to look at China’s and India’s history, both countries suffering horribly at the hands of British imperialism with China suffering further from the genocidal frenzy of the Japanese.
China got its act together, and it didn’t do that at India’s expense. As an Indian (presumably), you should try to show some common sense and not make slanderous allegations about China acting as the British Empire. British rule was genocide by massacres, famines, and plunder. Modi and his Hindutva movement may have forgotten this, but I’m quite certain their Western overlords have not and wouldn’t mind repeating the lesson to ”make a statement”. You reap what you sow.
Krish this blog is, among many other things, about debunking western propaganda. You are parroting nothing but the narrative fed to you by the masters of the universe. Modi g is touting himselft as a revolutionary toady of of Empire. Dont let emotions get the better of you Krrish. It’s not cool to be a bjp trool in this forum.
here are my two cents on why the west and her minions are finding it hard to embrace globalization with Chinese characteristics.
http://oneworld.press/?module=articles&action=view&id=1517
Thats strange, I’ve never heard about the disputes between India and all its neighbours before, but I’ve definitely heard about disputes between China and all its neighbours. Why nearly every day I read about China ramming and sinking one of its neighbours fishing boats again.
China was counterfeiting India’s banknotes, so India had to withdraw them from circulation and force people into banking and not keep their money under the mattress, so to speak. Bangladesh has been trying to take over Northern India, just like Bangladesh has been trying to do in Burma. While the Burmese are actively killing the Muslim infiltrators, India is just denying those Muslims citizenship. Can’t have Muslims take over Northern India by stealth, Muslims belong in either Pakistan or Bangladesh. Can’t have Muslims thinking that India is as EASY as Europe.
China was been withholding water in the dams in Tibet, while Vietnam has apparently been experiencing drought as a result.
And its China constantly wanting to expand its empire, not India. China is the one always saying “look how the West colonized all over, look how the Jews colonized in Palestine. China must then colonize others also”. Just think about India saying “look how the West colonized all over, look how the Jews colonized in Palestine. India must then colonize others also”, its just absurd, such thinking is not possible in India. But such thinking is alive in China, and actively cultivated. Currently its only the US Navy standing between China and its objectives.
gT says: “Thats strange, I’ve never heard about the disputes between India and all its neighbours before, but I’ve definitely heard about disputes between China and all its neighbours.”
— That means you have read too much western MSM garbage.
China has land border with 14 countries – the most in the world – even more than Russia (which has 13). In 1949, China had land disputes with every single one. But since then, China has settled all border disputes peacefully with all (except India and Bhutan – which is a politically vassal of India). India, on the other hand, has invaded, threatened and annexed plenty of its neighbors. The author of this article already mention quite a few, Reader can look at this link for more examples:
https://www.quora.com/Did-Indians-invade-or-rule-any-country-in-the-past/answer/Thomas-Edward-71
“Why nearly every day I read about China ramming and sinking one of its neighbours fishing boats again.”
— Again, because you are reading western media propaganda “nearly every day”.
“China was counterfeiting India’s banknotes ”
— Again, total non-sense. What is the motivation for China to do that?
“Bangladesh has been trying to take over Northern India,”
— Right, you are talking as if Bangladesh is so much more powerful than India.
“China was been withholding water in the dams in Tibet, while Vietnam has apparently been experiencing drought as a result.”
— A gross distortion of fact. It is of course impossible for China to withhold water indefinitely. The fact is that China build dams in China and South East Asia has helped many countries to manage their flood and drought much more effectively.
“And its China constantly wanting to expand its empire, not India.”
— Big fat lies. Look at the list of countries India has invaded and still occupying. China has border war with India in 1962, won and withdrew. If China wants to “expands its empire”, why withdraw after gaining the land? If China wants to expand, why settle land disputes with so many of its weakest neighbors like Lao, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, etc, but keep picking fights with strong ones like India?
“China is the one always saying “look how the West colonized all over, look how the Jews colonized in Palestine. China must then colonize others also”. ”
— What an idiotic projection. If China really wants to “colonize others”, you think China will come up with such stupid excuses?
“Currently its only the US Navy standing between China and its objectives.”
— LOL, as if US Navy can play a role in land disputes in remote central Asia.
China was not duplicating Indian bank notes? The motive ? Why? The same reason the $ used to duplicated by NK. To pay for arms supplies and insurgency in the country that is being attacked. You want more examples ? There’s plenty where such take place. Go look at operation bernhard.
Please name 1 country that India has arbitrarily attacked and is currently occupying, like you said? Just 1. Come on. Don’t even mention about land boundary disputes because they are just that, disputes. Not occupying and annexing a foreign country. Don’t go about shooting nonsense which is not based on fact. Just because you multiply words, doesn’t mean it’s correct.
Rajesh says: “China was not duplicating Indian bank notes? The motive ? Why? The same reason the $ used to duplicated by NK. To pay for arms supplies and insurgency in the country that is being attacked. ”
— Indians are really full of themselves. FYI: China has the largest foreign reserves in the world. If it wants to fund insurgency in India, it does not even need the troubles to duplicate Indian Bank note.
“Please name 1 country that India has arbitrarily attacked and is currently occupying, like you said? Just 1. Come on.”
— Did you read the article before posting? Did you read my post before replying? Did you click on my link before asking? Obviously no, no, and no.
From the article: “In the past, India has occupied some of its neighboring independent sovereign states like Sikkim, Nagaland, Jammu & Kashmir, Hyderabad, Juna Garh, etc. India has a track record of aggression and coercion against its small neighbors.”
From the link I provided:
“….
1948 India invaded the State of Hyderabad….
….
1954 Invaded Nagaland (Independent before India 14Aug1947) by Nehru
…
1961 Indian annex Goa
…
On April 9, 1975, the Indian army disarmed the Guards and imprisoned the King of Sikkim. Subsequently, the Sikkim Parliament, controlled by India, announced the king was deposed and declared Sikkim had become part of India.
…”
And more and more. Learn your own history.
“Don’t even mention about land boundary disputes because they are just that, disputes. ”
— Sikkim etc were independent countries. Sikkim even had a King that had to go exile.
“Don’t go about shooting nonsense which is not based on fact. Just because you multiply words, doesn’t mean it’s correct.”
— you are one that use too many words with non-sense and no fact.
Some basic facts were conveniently left out. Hyderabad was princely state. Goa was princely state. They had a choice sign an accession pact, get a pension (they still get a lot of royalty for being ex-royalty) and go away or lets sort this out.
These quislings reached out to some other past colonialists like Portugal and Turkey to help them maintain their state and subjucate their Hindu subjects. When the colonialists did not go for it and they had a few days to decide, the Indian army was sent to get it done. Sadly they were not put to the sword as that’s what they deserved.
Same with the other itty bitty bits of land to the east of Bangladesh. They all had a choice to accede with anyone but they chose India. This was not that easy after all and the NE states have lot more rights than regular states. Every deal was a decent one and no blood was spilt. (However, the Brits did manage to make it just as hard when they left — with the chicken neck pass — as they have done everywhere).
Goa was not a princely state. Goa was not under the British. Goa was part of a Portuguese colony, later elevated to Portuguese overseas territory, including Daman and Diu, which was invaded by India in December 1961 on the pretext that Goand desperate to join india were being massacred. Foreign correspondents in Goa at the time saw no such massacre.
Those socalled invasions were all during the independence period. Context is important. Should India have left Goa pr Hyderabad separate, things may have gone as far as genocide of certain groups, as occurred in Bangladesh and Pakistan.
Btw why duplicate bank notes? Did you read up on the historical example I sent you? They do this all the time in order to weaken a country from within and make it seem that the illegal funds is coming from a subversive element within the country itself. A country at war against itself cannot stand. It’s good PR. Who wants to be portrayed in the world as financing and supporting terrorists in a neighbor’s country.
Only the US navy standing between China and its objectives? You overestimated the US navy.
Each one of those USD 10 billion aircraft carriers could be sunk with a single hypersonic missile costing (made in China) USD 100K.
It’s because you read all those in western medias and that’s exactly what the west wants you to see and hear, how great they are and how evil China is! By the way name one country China bombed?!
Removed. No attacking the author. Mod.
What the author misses here is China claims a virtual “line of actual control” but will not produce maps for it. Until they do, it’s all he said she said and some fist cuffs. Been the case since 1962 (or depending on who you ask sinec 1953) and will continue to go up and down.
Keep in mind China is India’s #1 trading partner with a surplus of $53B. They’re not going to toss this market away for a couple of miles of contested border. Also, China is investing in a lot of manufacturing (and in tech) to get around some of the origin restrictions. Sure, they can do it in Vietnam where ever but India still has great engineering and english skills.
“India has moved its frontier vis-a-vis China, gaining direct access to the concrete highway in Purang county in Tibet. It has thereby changed the status quo in the region.”
Who’s status quo or what is the status quo? China can build a road in Tibet all the way to Indian border but India cannot build a road within its own border? If Nepal has a problem with the land, they should talk with India like they have before than it becoming China’s problem suddenly.
TS has already admonished another submitter for attacking the author, so I refrain from more.
Its always Indias fault, is a meme in thid forum. You understand that USSR and India had very strong rrlations. And that India has a very strong pro western force in BJP and Congress party both and in nih business. This is not in the interest of actual Indians.
Not to mention Christian and Muslim conversion efforts, massive Bangladeshi illegal immigrants, Pakistan ISI/CIA funded terrorists, so-called Marxist ie. Western or Chinese sponsored terorrists, etc.
The country faces miltiple issues. It is merely a case pf blame India. But being a country filled at least for the moment with Hindooos, they must be blamed, it seems.
Stop being so prickly and childish when it comes to criticisms of India. If India could do so some soul searching and use critical thinking it could move ahead. Always blaming Pakistan or China or this or that for its internal unrest is not going to solve its problems. The fact is India has close to a million soldiers in Kashmir, cut-off all telephone and internet links of Kashmir for months, its armed forces shoot and kill Kashmiris, and its politicians openly despise Muslim Kashmiris. Ask yourself whether this approach will help India in the long run. Ask yourself why some Hindus convert to Christianity and what is wrong about it. Do you want a country that denies freedom of choice in religion? Better learn to do some serious thinking because, the way the world political situation is evolving, Indians may end up becoming the Gurkhas of the American empire.
Ask yourself why Hindu, Christian, Sikh population fell in pakistan after the partition. Stop blaming everything on India and do some soul searching.
The states of Bahrain with 1.7 million population, Qatar with 2 million, Kuwait with 4 million and UAE with 9.8 million of which Arabs constitues just 30% of total population can be independent and sovereign states but not ancient Kurd nation with 35 million population (sandwiched between 4 countries), not ancient Punjabi nation with 150 million population, not ancient Bengal nation with 260 million population, and not ancient Korean nation with 75 million population, and many ancient nations which are either divided into many parts on the basis of religion and political ideologies or merged into other nations so they can’t be independent, like Tibet, Catalonia, Tamil Country, Hijaz etcetera. The colonialist do not want to face many Iran in different parts of the world.
“The global system rigged up by the evil White folks during Pax Britannica and Pax Americana is slowly but surely collapsing. A new global system is emerging … starting with redrawing of the illogical and flawed international boundaries. It has already begun.” — Mamur Mustapha
This article and the comment threads deserves better than the plethora of “Anonymous” comments.
I have begged for years that no ‘default to Anonymous’ be coded and no Anonymous be allowed as an Identity.
I submit the case with this Comment Thread as prime example.
It’s time to end Anonymous
If it remains it has to have a number or some form of suffix. Eg, Anonymous101 or AnonymousZ, etc. Something that makes it unique to one commenter.
The beauty of the Vineyard is the global participation of commenters from different civilizations, cultures, ideologies, religions, philosophies. They give texture and depth to the blog. Most of all, they give individuality to the blog. Anonymous erases all that value.
Sorry Larch I disagree. Anonymous (not really anonymous to who need to really need to know; but for regular people) is what makes people come out and post.
Also, this being the internets anyone can post with any name or handle or there can be Anonymous1-N. What does that buy you? If you think you can thread an identity or a stream of thought by a handle, you’re mistaken.
PS: I still scratch my head as to why there’s no SSL for this website! Letsencrypt gives one for free!
I have always used my real name on this site.
Forget anonymous, I don’t hide behind a pseudonym.
The great thing about anonymity is it makes cyber abuse less easy. I mean, if you have a distinct style or unique beliefs, people may spot you. And literally half the world can access public sites. Cyber abuse can be a hard to escape form of psychological torture — you need to use the internet to have a job. And if you use the internet a lot, anyone with some skills and time can hack, stalk or harrass you. I reckon the people reading the comments are up to 100% anonymous so therefore the comments should be allowed to be 100% anonymous too.
Why is it time to “end Anonymous”? Only the police state mentality (communists and fascists) always need to know who’s expressing their free opinion. The FREE discussion and debate and ideas is predicated on people not feeling observed, recorded, threatened and judged as a result of freely expressing their ideas and thoughts. An anonymous forum facilitates a free exchange.
“I have begged for years that no ‘default to Anonymous’ be coded and no Anonymous be allowed” – how humble and magnanimous of you. If the underhanded efforts of pond scum like yourself were successful, we would’ve never gotten the fortune to read the writings and historical contributions of: Samuel Clemens, Silence Dogood, Clive Hamilton, Ayn Rand, Chanakya, Gabriela Mistral, J. K. Rowling etc. etc.
Now be gone, for we need not your contributions or malice.
Excellent proof of the very arrogant mindset pertaining to the ’cause’. The anti-authoritarian soundbites as substitute for sensible arguments. Strangely, this poster did provide a nick.
And you’ll be the judge of what arguments are “sensible” or not? You’ll be the censor to remove “non-sensible” arguments?
Yeah, I thought so.
As you eloquently put it yourself, kid:
Now be gone, for we need not your contributions or malice.
Also, as long as this forum doesn’t promote any anti-intellectual trash by Ayn Rand, I’m pleased to say the least.
Larch, you nailed it. If someone chooses to be anonymous, I don’t want to read what they have to say.
If you don’t want to be known as the person who said your wonderful thought, then don’t say it. And if you are afraid the bad guys are going to find out what you think, let me put your mind at ease.
They already know.
So, from whom are you hiding?
As an Indian, let me say what I think about this article and this issue.
First: the border between India and China had been repeatedly redrawn by the British during the 19th and early 20th centuries. The historical Kashmir territory had been a Mughal Empire possession, then been taken from it by the Sikh Empire, which in the early 1840s was in turn annexed by the Brits and put under a puppet Hindu Dogra dynasty. The basic importance of Kashmir to the Brits was that it was a frontier state against “Russian expansion” like Afghanistan, which was not at the time (until the Afghan Independence War of 1919) permitted by the Brits to have a foreign policy. The space between Kashmir and Afghanistan was left to Tibet, which in turn was under the control of the weak and powerless Chinese Empire.
After the Chinese Revolution of 1911 the Brits – who had invaded Tibet in 1903 – decided to cut away Tibet from China before the latter could get strong. They therefore called a “Simla Conference” in 1913 at the Indian city of Simla, now Shimla. The participants were the Dalai Lama’s people, the British under one Henry MacMahon, and one single Chinese representative, Ivan Chen. At that conference the Brits unilaterally divided Tibet into two – an Outer (southern) Tibet that was to be under Chinese “suzerainty” but with no Chinese “sovereignty”, and an Inner (northern) Tibet under both Chinese suzerainty and sovereignty. That is, South Tibet would be explicitly Chinese in name only. MacMahon also redrew the border between the two entities of British India and Outer Tibet, claiming what is now the Indian State of Arunachal Pradesh in the east, calling the new border it unilaterally imposed the MacMahon Line. At the same time it explicitly relinquished a large part of its claimed borders of Kashmir in the West, leaving the plateau of Aksai Chin in Ladakh to Outer Tibet. The Dalai Lama’s regime eagerly agreed, but the Chinese did not.
*No Chinese government, Nationalist or Communist, has ever at any time recognised the validity of the Simla Conference or the MacMahon Line.* This is essential to remember. And it did not happen during the Chinese Civil War as this article claims, it happened long before that.
In 1947 India became “independent”, though its military was still equipped and led by British officers. When they left, Nehru began a policy of deliberately promoting incompetent yes-men to the Army’s top ranks so as to not have a military coup. China was still weak and just recovering from the Civil War and was embroiled in Korea, and, seizing the opportunity, in 1951 India invaded Tibetan territory that was explicitly left to Outer Tibet in the east by the MacMahon Line, the monastery town of Tawang, and annexed it. On 1 July 1954 Nehru also unilaterally extended the Indian claim line in Kashmir to re include Aksai Chin, which had been left to Tibet by MacMahon. My father, a young man at the time, himself confirmed to me that before 1954 Indian maps always depicted Aksai Chin in China.
*India cannot simultaneously claim the MacMahon Line in the east and Aksai Chin in the west.* The two are mutually exclusive. It cannot be legally done.
China had repeatedly suggested through the 1950s a straightforward swap – Aksai Chin for the MacMahon Line. Insta refused every time.
During the late 1950s to mid 60s, too, India hosted CIA listening posts in the Himalayas to spy on China. India and the CIA armed and trained Khampa rebels and parachuted and infiltrated them into Chinese Tibet. India – violating its own promise to China to not permit political activities – allowed the fugitive Dalai Lama regime to set up a “government in exile” in Dharmashala near Shimla. American engagement with India against China is nothing new.
As for the current crisis, it’s entirely manufactured by the Modi regime. The regime is desperate to distract attention from a collapsed economy, a ruinous failed lockdown, surging COVID-19 numbers, ravaging locusts, financial criminals who were permitted to escape abroad, rising popular discontent, and no users how to fix things. It therefore chose to pick a fight with China, which boomeranged badly. The regime media has suddenly fallen silent on the topic while those not under the regime claim massive further Indian territorial losses in Aksai Chin. It’s not going to end in war anyway. The Indian army is too weak to take on the Chinese alone, and America is not going to commit suicide for the greater glory of Narendrabhai Damodardasbhai Modi.
Thank you for a well articulated fact based comment
Seconded…thank you Biswaspriya.
The history of Tibet is complex, at one point Tibet was even ruling territory in China. The Mongols conquered both Tibet and China. Tibet’s fortunes fluctuated, and was under some Khanate when the Qing dynasty took over in 1720. The Qing dynasty was Manchu, not Chinese. Finally when the Qing dynasty collapsed in 1911, Tibet got some independence until the Chinese invasion of 1950. So China is claiming territory that was conquered by others, not by Chinese.
gT says: “The Qing dynasty was Manchu, not Chinese. ”
— Haha, posting further non-sense to advance your own agenda.
Fact 1: Most Manchu people call themselves Chinese today.
Fact 2: Most Manchu people are PRC citizens today.
Fact 3: Qing dynasty is as much a Chinese dynasty as any others. The word “Qing” is itself a Chinese word, in the tradition of thousands of years of Chinese dynasties, e.g. Han, Tang, Sui, Song, Yuen, Ming, etc.
Fact 4: Culturally and politically, Qinq was as “Chinese” as you can get. They followed similar systems as all other dynasties, similar traditions, religions. All Qinq emperors spoke Chinese Han and studied Confusian classics, … etc.
Fact 5: Qing dynasty was ruled as much by Han politicians/scholars/military generals as Manchu. Its military conquest of China couldn’t be accomplished without the helps of Han majority.
So, the only difference between Qing and most Chinese dynasties was that its emperors were not ethnic Han. Therefore, saying Qing dynasty was not Chinese is like saying US was not America from 2008-2016 because a non-white man was the President of the country.
gT says: “So China is claiming territory that was conquered by others, not by Chinese.”
— Very convenient and arrogant for you, as a foreigner, to define and decide what is or is NOT “Chinese” for the Chinese and China.
Excellent points.
These disputes are so emotionally charged that facts are obscured – or even twisted. One understands our Indian friends will have a hard time being objective in these matters, but surely they ought to try at least to look honestly at other people’s points of view, as hard as it may be.
Otherwise, rational conversation becomes impossible.
I suppose the Mongols are Chinese also.
gT says: “I suppose the Mongols are Chinese also.”
— Don’t talk too much on issue that you are completely ignorant of.
Fact 1: Most of the ethnic Mongol people today stay in China (i.e. PRC), NOT Mongolia.
Fact 2: Most of them are citizens of PRC.
They are not Han.
But, yes, most Mongols in the world today are Chinese. Just like Obama is American.
So Mongol conquered territory is also Chinese territory?
gT says: “So Mongol conquered territory is also Chinese territory?”
Yes, some of them. For others, China has settled with Russia / Kyrgyzstan / Tajikistan etc.
Next question?
Nah, no more questions, I was just wondering since Manchu conquered territory is Chinese territory whether the same thing applied to Mongol conquered territory as well. You have answered my question.
gT says: “I was just wondering since Manchu conquered territory is Chinese territory…”
— I did NOT say *ALL* Manchu conquered territory is Chinese territory. For example, Vladivostok was once under Qinq, but China and Russia has settled that. Peacefully – I should emphasize.
Tibet, however, has been under China’s rule mostly continuously since Qing. Yes, CIA did try to sponsor a revolution in the 1950s, but no country today – not a single one – recognizes Tibet to be an independent country.
When the anger of the people,
Rises against the King,
On the border,
There will be war,
That’s Internal Diplomacy.
~ O. V. Vijayan, Dharapuranam 1985
A Malyali writer from Kerala.
A very well articulated post, and an excellent grasp of the historical intricacies.
I commend you
Sincerity and truth is important and treasured. I appreciate your comments.
One thing I want to note: in it’s dispute with India, China doesn’t resort to demeaning India. Just watch the media and documentaries in China about India. If anything, there is a reverence for India as a civilization, as a birthplace of Buddhism.
While there is a little contempt for the notion of India as a geopolitical rival, I say that’s just ephemeral politics. China doesn’t do that to Pakistan….for example…
Strategically, China prefers India (and Pakistan) to be brothers. But this desire is not reciprocated by India. India’s advancing of its Northwest Territories has been tragic in terms of destroying Chinese desires for friendship…
It’s sad…
The misinformation and disinformation about China in India is orders of magnitude beyond anything other topic in India save perhaps Pakistan.
It’s truly tragic…
China prefers India and Pakistan to be brothers? Where did you hear that pice of joke? China openly supports Pakistan as a check against India.
The same way the west supports Ukraine to be a thorn to Russia.
Simultaneously, India desires peace too if China stops expanding South West. A relationship is never one sided my man. It is always reciprocal. India knows it cannot destroy China..China also knows it cannot destroy India. Why not respect each other..
Thank you for this balanced and very educated post! These kind of forum posts are what makes the Saker blog so unique. So much above the almost anything out there on the internet!
i admire the way you are referring to the claims of the people of Tibet to self:sovereignty as being the claims of a “regime” whilst simultaneously promoting all the claims of the occupiers of Tibet as impeccable. Quite the mental gymnastics that is.
You’re the Man!
As another Indian, I fully agree with what Biswapriya has said here.
I might add India gaining a seat on the UN Security council might be “part of the deal” with the US, a reward for causing trouble for China, at least short term. US is obviously using Covid19 to turn as much of the world as possible against China. Probably with the eventual aim of breaking China and Russia apart after the disastrous Obama-Hillary policies that drove Russia and China together.
I might also recommend to Saker readers the book “The Noodlemaker of Kalimpong” This is a long interview with Gyalo Thondup, the elder brother of the Dalai Lama, relating his life story. He was the closest thing Tibet had to a foreign minister in the 1940s and 1950s and its a very illuminating geopolitical journey as he was educated in China, knew both Mao and Chang Kai Shek, knew Nehru, and many other international figures.
He concludes that his story makes pretty much everyone look bad: The Tibetan aristocracy, the Americans, the Chinese, the British, the Russians, the Indians all get their turns of infamy. He does single out however “the worst mistake in his life” was trusting the CIA, believing that they actually wanted to help Tibet. With their help he spearheaded the 1959 uprising and when it happened the CIA just vanished and the Chinese crushed Tibet. All they actually wanted was to cause trouble for China and used himself and Tibet to do so.
He settled down in Kalimpong and still makes noodles there to this day. In his 90s now I think.
Thanks a lot Biswapriya! You and people like you literally save the image of India battered horribly by these stupid bjp idiots! Please post more
@An******s,
Pretend you are blind. You depend on your hearing to discern all other people who come into your life. And everyone you converse with sounds exactly the same.
You would have no way of knowing who was talking.
Understand now.
It has nothing to do with your true identity. It has everything to do with investing the time to read your/others comments. If three or four people are on the thread with the same “persona/avatar”, it is all muddled. One could cancel another. Or one guy could post 6 or 7 comments just to troll the readers.
I have generally had a rule. I don’t read any of them.
This blog is about connecting with others on a cerebral level. Anonymous destroys that.
And there is a certain arrogance most users of Anonymous display just because it suits a perverse streak in them. I’ve never been impressed with any Anonymous, and I’ve been on the blog for seven years. Seen them come and go.
But there are plenty of other commenters I cherish and respect, many are exceptional commenters.
Larchmonter445 says: “It has nothing to do with your true identity…”
Well said. Those Anonymous posters here is/are not only arrogant, they are dishonest. They pretend that the use of “Anonymous” is for the purpose of hiding their identity and to allow them “freedom” to speak out their minds. In actual fact, those are BS excuses. Their ONLY reason is to hide their own comment history – thereby preventing any true debate or rebuttal of their points.
I try not to reply to them.
@d dan
Top-notch comment, thoroughly exposing the real motives behind what I would like to call ”the anonymice scourge”. These contributors are dishonest, arrogant, cowardly, as well as flat-out lazy. Imagine if everyone were to post using the same chosen signature. That would lead to an equally intolerable degradation of the forum.
I suggest that the ”Name” field mustn’t be left empty. This would have the additional benefit of preventing posting without the intended signature included. And ”Anonymous” (as explicit choice) doesn’t qualify as such.
“I’ve never been impressed with any Anonymous”.
I would not say ‘never’ but I agree with Larchmonter. Contributors without distinct names seem also to lack distinct personalities; leading to muddle (as Larchmonter says) or to mere run-of-the mill ‘idees recus’ (mainstream opinion).
Solon the Sage (one of the Seven Sages) invented Democracy, and made it a political crime to separate one’s opinion from one’s identity.
Anonymous comments are safer in terms of being stalked and cyber abused. I would not comment without some degree of anonymity, because half the world can see this site if they want.
With the advent of increasingly advanced bots, I hope we will come to abandon much of the internet as nobody will be able to tell the human-generated trash posts from the computer-generated trash posts. Face-to-face interactions are so much more wholesome.
You don’t understand the point I am proposing.
I, obviously, enjoy anonymity. But using “Anonymous” as the name selected for your posting identity or persona becomes a scramble with many others doing the same and the “default” in the website code if no name is entered all of which post as “Anonymous”.
@d dan said it very well: Those Anonymous posters here is/are not only arrogant, they are dishonest. They pretend that the use of “Anonymous” is for the purpose of hiding their identity and to allow them “freedom” to speak out their minds. In actual fact, those are BS excuses. Their ONLY reason is to hide their own comment history – thereby preventing any true debate or rebuttal of their points.
Hiding the comment history is crucial for trolls and bots or for mounting rebuttals against their remarks which may be loaded with misinformation and propaganda.
/the-cause-of-tension-between-china-and-india/#comment-819203
Like really?!
Get a India vs China article written by an ‘Ex-Pakistani’ Diplomat, AND expect it to paint India
in a negative light.
Damn! If there ever were a more cliched cliche.
P.S. @THESAKER – That’s like asking a NeoCon if Russia is a ‘malign influence’ or not.
India needs to have an independent foreign policy instead of trying desperately to be a junior partner to the US Empire.
It is time India realised that the US Empire does not have partners, junior or otherwise. It only has vassals.
Unfortunately India seems very keen to go down holding on to the coat tails of the US.
Indians will be the biggest losers of the collapse of the US Empire. The psychological blow to India will be far worse than any military defeat.
@jiri
Well put. Indeed, just like the Ukronazis before them, the Hindunazis are “victims” of horribly bad timing — joining forces with the AngloZIoNazis just as the latter are descending terminally into the sewers. Good riddance.
LOL, we Indians have a talent for always jumping on the bandwagon that is about to drive off a cliff.
In 2003-4, the then Vajpayee regime, which was run by the same party as Modi’s but was positively leftie in comparison, all but sent troops to join in the invasion of Iraq. It was cancelled at the last possible moment, mostly because Atal Bihari Vajpayee, the prime minister then, was a genial old buffer who preferred agreement to confrontation, and the opposition parties refused to go along with it. Now I’m hearing demands that we should send troops to Afghanistan. That should go well!
That should go very well, Biswapriya! Imagine Modi subduing the Taleban, erecting Hindu temples and destroying Afghanistan’s mosques. His stature will rise higher than the Himalayas. When asked by the MSM how it was possible for Superman Modi to succeed where NATO failed, Modi knows exactly the right answer:
— Hindutva believers high on opiates = total invincibility!
All of this reminds me of the infamous speech of General Chi (taken from IDR though this speech is available on numerous websites, some of them too anti-Russian)
“Hitler’s Germany had once bragged that the German race was the most superior race on Earth, but the fact is, our nation is far superior to the Germans.”
“If the Chinese people are strapped to the present land, a total societal collapse is bound to take place. According to the computation of the author of Yellow Peril, more than half of the Chinese will die, and that figure would be more than 800 million people!”
“Would the United States allow us to go out to gain new living space? First, if the United States is firm in blocking us, it is hard for us to do anything significant to Taiwan and some other countries! Second, even if we could snatch some land from Taiwan, Vietnam, India, or even Japan, how much more living space can we get? Very trivial! Only countries like the United States, Canada and Australia have the vast land to serve our need for mass colonization.”
Also some mention of biological warfare as a means of acquiring land by wiping out the current occupants, highly relevant in this covid-19 period, and where it apparently originated or superspread-ed.
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spotlights/is-nazi-china-emerging/0/
The speech is fascinating. It reads like a Zionist screed through the looking glass. Probably just reflects Chi Haotian’s opinions for the most part, but like many similar neo-con diatribes you might read here in the west, I’m sure there are many others in the Chinese hierarchy who share them. I read it primarily as just a very pragmatic left-brained approach toward geo-political strategy from a Chinese perspective. And yes, bio-warfare is now front and center on the table for attaining strategic goals, no matter who’s employing them. All of which reinforces my opinion that CV19 is a US agent. If the Chinese had employed it as a first strike weapon – unlike the US Zionists who used it primarily as a political weapon of mass deception – it would have been MUCH more lethal, which is also an argument against the Chinese using it as such in isolation against a heavily nuclear armed opponent: the nukes can still be used in all-out retaliation after most of the home population is wiped out.
As to whether the Chinese would feel the need to colonize the US and beyond: 1. They already are (from within), for the most part, and 2.) Much of the western US is simply uninhabitable from the perspective of long term sustainability. Too dry, too hot, and MAJOR water issues. 20th century tech has thus far allowed a civilization to bloom where it definitely should not be, but those days are seriously numbered absent serious population reductions, which belies the Chinese desire to re-colonize it again in the first place.
On RT we learn that 3 indian soldiers died during the last skirmish between india and china.
India Today an indian MSM is claiming that there are 43 casualties among chinese soldiers (43!).
This reminds me the awful turkish propaganda claiming that the turkish army killed 2000 syrian soldiers in idlib in less than a week.
I hope that modi is not an erdogan 2.0. It would be bad for countries around india and for india itself.
This is the article from india today:
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/india-china-face-off-ladakh-lac-chinese-casualties-pla-1689714-2020-06-16
”I hope that modi is not an erdogan 2.0. It would be bad for countries around india and for india itself.”
It would be ’slightly unfair’ to Erdogan/Turkey likening them to Modi/India. Erdogan, for all his reactionary ideology and ugly plotting, rules over something which fairly still resembles a state, and he does it with significant dexterity. Modi, by contrast, is an incompetent fool happily trashing his own country with a mass base of Hindu über-crackpots. A more proper line-up here would be the ”swastika powers” India and Ukraine while Turkey would be more aptly compared to the Gulf states.
I still don’t understand why the Indians are so unwilling to just sit down and discuss border issues with the Chinese. The communists have shown that they are more than willing to compromise in their negotiations. They already have given far too much territory to other neighbor’s. If the Indians are unwilling to negotiate and settle now they may have to deal with a more dangerous and powerful neighbor in the future. Even if they had to sit down and say no, that would at least help smooth things over for the future. Eurasia is slowly uniting, working together can only bring profit and freedom from the Anglo Zionists empire.
Brand says: “I still don’t understand why the Indians are so unwilling to just sit down and discuss border issues with the Chinese… Even if they had to sit down and say no, that would at least help smooth things over for the future. ”
— Agree. Hopefully more and more Indians can come to this common sense conclusion. Revenge for the 1962 is neither possible nor a rational excuse. Negotiation is the way to go. Let’s give peace a chance – it is better than “winning” the next war.
Brand says: “The communists have shown that they are more than willing to compromise in their negotiations. They already have given far too much territory to other neighbor’s”
— This is a fact that is never/seldom reported in the western media. Therefore most Indians are unlikely to know it.
Indian is a racist term invented by the European genociders and looters for the natives of Turtle Islands (North America) and the brown people of South Asia. When these looters set their foot on the continental “India” during 15th century there were 560+ princely states of numerous nationalities and ethnicities coexisting harmoniously. Through cheat and deceit, and guns and bullets, they either toppled down rulers or made them subservient, gradually bringing state by state within their sphere of control and called the whole British India. When it was time for the looters to leave, they handed over the power to a minority people who would continue their colonial agendas of destroying characters of people. So when they wrote constitution, in the preamble, they declared “INDIA, i.e. Bharat shall be a UNION OF STATES”, like the former USSR or the EU. But the differences never been recognized. (China officially recognize 56 ethnicities.) With the imposition of hybrid languages of Hindi in general masses https://caravanmagazine.in/caste/what-hindi-keeps-hidden and Urdu among Muslims, people no more relate themselves with the place their ancestors lived for centuries. Thier ideals have been changed and their views of life completely distorted.
A people with no memory, principles and values, stand for nothing and falls for everything.
“I still don’t understand why the Indians are so unwilling to just sit down and discuss border issues with the Chinese. ”
Because they have no idea what they want. The Chinese don’t care much for territory in these parts as long as it is workable and logical. They seem willing to concede land for the sake of settling the dispute. The Indians seem to want it all and to have it their way all the way.
India instigated the hostile activities in 1962 at the behest of the CIA instead of negotiating peacefully.
They chose to hold on to the coattails of Empire instead of having an independent foreign policy.
Hopefully these events will lead to a settlement.
China is no different than India in any respect.
And it is never about system of governance and economic doctrines that is adopted, like they say in China, “socialism with Chinese characteristics” or whatever fancy slogans invented to suit respective peoples’ mindset. All systems of governance and economic doctrines are anti-people, anti-people and anti-people, nothing else.
Ever wonder what is the cause of extremely huge, very huge population explosion in India and China ever since local colonialists took charge from European thugs? China from 580 millions in 1949 to 1420 millions today and India from 310 millions to 1360 millions today.
The great Dr. Vandana Shiva, an environmental scientist, explains the cause of population explosion…
“The population explosion is an ecological phenomenon of displacement. Unless we solve that ecological problem of displacing people – to build huge dams, to build motorways, to take away what people need in order to survive – we will keep pumping more and more money into population programs. We will have more and more coercive and violent methods through which women’s bodies are treated as experimental grounds for new contraceptives. Yet we will not have a solution to the problem of numbers.” – Vandana Shiva
Here is a beautiful folk song, Gaon chodab nahi (we will not leave our homeland), about sustainability and development from indigenous perspective .
https://youtu.be/8M5aeMpzOLU
I cracked a harmless joke about why India and China have huge populations and it was disallowed by the mod.
This site is turning out to be a rather bland and mirthless site, not even at the “Moveable Feast Cafe” section.
And BTW, I have never come across any really mirthful but authentic Russian jokes. The only Russian jokes I came across are those made by Westerners about Russians at the height of the cold war.
Come on, Russians. Have a good laugh at yourself and others sometimes. The world can be a cheerful place even with the nova coronavirus (i.e. until (God forbid) one gets infected).
Why India refused to settle? Answer: they want Tibet. And behind India is the usual culprit since losing the Korean War.
Who needs a border, the colonialist and not people. Who created border, the colonialist and not people. Who raised the army, the colonialist and not people. Who manufactured weapons, the colonialist and not people.
Such is the level of insanity that all our discourses are about the aspirations, motivations and future of a few megalomaniacs and never about people and life. It is because an environment has been created where people are forced to associate with the aspirations of colonialist as their own. Remember what the criminal of existence, Henry Kissinger once said, “… if you want to control the people, control food.” Control here means not limited access to food, it actually means no access to food. Hence, what people today put in their mouth is not food that is a product of life but something else that comes from laboratory. And everything that comes from the laboratory is acidic and has cyanide. Cyanide changes the images in the brain and impairs vision to see things clrealy. People are sick, confused and lost, and are insane. But they don’t know, because an insane person is the last one to that he is insane.
Border disputes are trump cards of the colonialist to contain people living within their respective monkey-sharing imaginery lines. They are in this together. No, the disputes will never be settled.
“… if you want to control the people, control food.” – This is not original from Henry Kissinger. This is from Li Su, the Prime Minister of Chin state when the King of Chin unified China in 221 BC and became her first Emperor.
Li Su founded the Legalist school of thought which inspired the reorganisation of Chin state into the most powerful of the warring feudal states.
The organisation of unified China under the Chin Dynasty was based on Li Su’s philosophy. The Han Dynasty which succeeded the Chin Dynasty supplemented Li Su’s Legalism with Confucianism. But the foundation of Chinese mindset/psyche was laid during the Chin Dynasty under the rule of the first Emperor – Chin Shi Huang Ti.
Even today, the Chinese demonstrate a certain discipline, control and order in their mind set and abhorrence to chaos.
That’s funny. Last I saw the Chinese were the ones who were doing the taking and unfortunate countries doing the succumbing.
Today there are reports from both sides of casualties in the present confrontation. Interesting, according to the RT report (https://www.rt.com/news/491977-chinese-casualties-india-border/) no guns were involved. These were hand to hand combat deaths and injuries.
Last year or the year before in a confrontation, the Chinese and Indians troops threw stones at one another.
Thus, we see, their governments have restrained the use of military weapons. But the troops on both sides are still allowed to fight each other like prehistoric foes.
It seems only false pride by both governments is keeping these incidents brewing. It’s long past time to settle the border issues and end this insanity.
Xi and Modi and their counselors need to resolve this and get on with defeating COVID-19 and ending poverty in their nations. Great civilizations have to put down the sticks and stones, guns and bombs, and get on with Eurasia Integration.
I completely agree with you.
However, when I see the confrontation between india and china in 2020, the confrontation between india and pakistan in 2019 (remember the pakistani F-16 vs the indian MiG-21?), japanese territorial claims on russian islands in the pacific, the perpetual confrontations between north and south korea, the confrontations between china vietnam and the philippines in the china sea, the perpetual confrontations between china and taiwan etc, I wonder if the eurasia integration project is really an achievable objective.
The idea of the eurasian integration is great but nevertheless its feasibility remains questionable.
Hello Larchmonter445,
I still have your article about China-Russia Helix. It is still relevant.
On Monday morning 15th June, a high level meeting was held in New Delhi. Among the people who attended were the following. PM Modi, Defence Minister Rajnath, National Security Advisor Doval, Gen Bipin Rawat as Chief of Defence Staff, and the heads of India’s army navy and airforce. A joint decision was arrived at, to take back two heights on the same day, located where the Galwan river meets/flows into the Shyok river. Would you call this a high level national decision?
The two heights — occupied by Chinese troops — to be assaulted overlook the new road north to Daulat Beg/Siachin, between 16K and 18K feet above sea level. The army unit selected for the job was 16th Battalion, Bihar Regiment. Or 16 Bihar. About 300 to 400 men took part in the uphill attack, from afternoon to long after night fall. These men of 16th battalion were not special forces or commandos, just ordinary infantry or militia type troops.
Yes you are correct, no firearms were carried uphill. Indians troops carried melee weapons in the form of iron rods, wooden clubs, and probably a blade on themselves. A bayonet perhaps. The colonel was with with them to talk the Chinese troops into leaving the heights. The Chinese waited for them, and one of their most effective melee weapon of choice in this particular battle were long stout bamboo staves with barbed-wire wrapped around one end.
After the close-quarters fighting the Chinese retreated back up to their positions. Three men including the Indian colonel commanding the battalion, died first while it was still daylight. About 17 men, seriously injured, fell on the slopes, and were left behind by the Indian army as they were chased downhill, and these 17 seriously injured either froze to death or died of their wounds during the night. The Indian army left them overnight to die, same as in 1962.
In the dark about 27 men were chased down slope, where they fell into the fast flowing river waters and drowned. Next day the Indians announced 34 of their men were missing. The Chinese said they had no prisoners in their custody. So far the tally is 47 dead. The Chinese haven’t released a tally of dead/wounded. They never do. The tally of Chinese dead, circulating in India on WhatsApp is fake news, and Indian media are happily lapping it up.
Check out the map of the battle location at 2.25 mark here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hl_Vjd6m6A
Chinese positions in yellow. Indian positions on the road on the left.
Can this fight be described as a skirmish, as Indian media are portraying????
FranciscoX
Thanks to Mr Anwan for this interesting write-up which throws a useful light on this China-India border dispute. Let us hope is doesn’t escalate any further.
3 deaths from combat and 17 from exposure suggests the Indians came out 2nd best. If the Chinese withdrew from the field, the Indian victors would have cared for their casualties, or if the Indians withdrew in good order.
This is, of course, speculation on my part but usually only fleeing troops lose their mates.
43 casualties, if true, on the Chinese side probably means they had no resources (or stomach, or orders) to pursue.
India claims there was no exchange of fire but that the soldiers were “martyred” (India has taken to aping the Pakistani habit of calling killed troops “martyrs”) by Chinese attacking with “wired clubs and stones”. This is automatically proof that you can’t believe the Indian army account because either the poor unarmed Indian troops “killed” 43 Chinese soldiers with their bare hands or else the Indian army is lying about the number of Chinese soldiers “killed”, or both. Having had personal experience of the Indian armed forces I can absolutely guarantee you that anything they say can be almost axiomatically taken to be a lie.
Hi Biswapriya,
I agree the number 43 appears grossly inflated. Speaking as a military officer, you never leave troops behind. For 17 to die of exposure indicates headlong panic leaving the field and a complete breakdown of military discipline , suggesting far fewer casualties on the other side. The only other scenario would be a patrol wiped out which is unlikely.
It’s a shame to see troops, regardless of nation, lose their lives needlessly.
Warfare is the continuation of diplomacy by physical means, it is unfortunate that the diplomats and politicians don’t experience it first hand.
One of my school alumni WhatsApp group members said an interesting thing this morning:
“Valuable human lives lost just for the fallacy of the political leaders. They always think they are the wisest.”
Modi’s manufactured border confrontation doesn’t seem to have impressed anybody.
Don’t worry about India. India is just a side-show for China. China was just “slaughtering the chicken to frighten the monkey”.
Now the monkey is afraid and asking for a pow wow in Hawaii.
Agreed,
I was scanning the chinese media and hardly anyone is giving significance to the recent fight that led to casualties on both the sides. If at all they cover the incident, it’s not highlighted but pushed to a corner. On the other hand, the incident became a big news in the whole south asia
China is in complete control of the narrative now, it’s the dominant player that controls the escalation ladder
”Modi’s manufactured border confrontation doesn’t seem to have impressed anybody.”
That’s very good as far as China is concerned. If it’s mostly for domestic consumption, it won’t help India the slightest. Again, the comparison with Ukraine explains very well how Hindutva misrule works. As fitting for a leader of a collapsing state aligned with Western imperialism, Modi commits himself full-time to clownish provocations against an ’Axis-of-Evil’ neighbour whose inner strength in the form of leadership tenacity, economic muscle, and overall development dwarfs that of the yapping dog. Anti-labour laws are being enacted across India which is already suffocating under COVID-19, rural poverty, and extreme corruption.
It’s natural to assume Modi’s handlers in the West hold him in about the same regard as they do Mr. Greenclown in Kiev. But it would be dishonest not to admit the fact that Ukronazis and Hindunazis are both ”quite combustible people” displaying impressive outbursts of anger worthy of a better cause.
I don’t know about other soldiers, but Chinese soldiers are quite capable of killing with their bare hands. They may not be as big sized as the Indian soldiers on average the Punjabi, from the Indian state of Punjab, especially are usually hefty six-footers; and so are the US soldiers.
But in hand to hand combat, it is intelligence, speed, dexterity, agility, skill and swift concentration of power that counts, not size and certainly not pure muscle size. This requires training which includes toughening the fingers, hands, body, legs and feet. And if fighting bare-footed, toughen the toes as well.
The hefty big-sized people are not as swift in mind or limbs on the average, as the smaller sized people.
That is why the best body type for commandos or special forces is the stout average sized body with strong shoulders and hands.
Those with such body-types are quicker in mind and body on the average – the basic requirement for hand-to-hand combat with bare hands, sticks, batons or with knives, machetes or sword. They will make mince-meat (literally if knives or swords are used) of the big but slower people.
They also have better endurance in almost all environments.
Hi Simon,
All soldiers receive hand to hand training and all body types have advantages and disadvantages in combat. In the end discipline, training, morale, and tenacity are probably the most important.
Harolds shield wall was broken due to his troops lack of discipline. The celts had little training but good morale, and lost to discipline, training and morale every time they faced the Romans. For tenacity, read about Aníbal Augusto Milhais.
Cheers!
Thanks for the reading reference. However, the Chinese have long observed that big sized people are generally slower in both mind and body and lower in intelligence on the average.
So in warfare, the tall big sized (Hollywood types) are just so much cannon fodder.
BTW, I am tall for a Chinese. So I always make the extra mental effort to utilize more my brains when resolving even seemingly simple problems. E.g. when trimming my fruit trees.
Speed, Agility, Dexterity, Technological Prowess..all cool stuff
Just 2 regiments are enough for you. Gurkha and Jat. It’s fun to have people who don’t fear death but welcome it but don’t like to go alone into the pit and prefer a party of opponents to join the ride :)
You left out intelligence – critical in hand-to-hand combat.
If they didn’t have intelligence they wouldn’t be conscripted. Read up on Gurkha and how they single handedly or two, take down armies of 30 and more guerilla trained fighters. FYI, A guerilla fighter is a soldier who believes in what he does. An army soldier is one who does it just to get a pay check.
My friend. Gurkha is not a person. Gurkha is born for one purpose only-taking the enemy’s life. Both of them welcome pain and death with a smile. Trust me you don’t know them. There is a reason why the armies of the world fear them and use them to create maximum destruction and chaos for the enemy.
:)
But I do know the Gurkha well up close in fact, and their weaknesses.
Example, if they were so good, they would not have lost their fight and independence to the Brits.
The gurkhas are very good, tough, anti- guerilla fighters and highly disciplined.
However, they could not stem the Japanese advance into the Malay Peninsula.
Average height of the Japanese soldiers was 5 feet tall.
But the Gurkha’s’ kukris could not beat the Japanese samurai sword.
The battle of Malaya at the beginning of WW2 involved at the most 50,000 Japanese troops including logistic personnel. All in only 36,000 were actually fighting troops.
They drove 200,000 British, Indian (including Gurkhas) and Australian troops 600 km down the Malayan Peninsular and forced them to surrender in Singapore in 70 days.
The British, Aussie and Indian troops were veritable 6-footers. Please google the picture of the British surrendering to the Japanese and you will know what I mean.
The Gurkha’s are very good at fighting hand to hand with their kukris. But I don’t think they are effective enough in modern hand to hand meelees, especially not bare-handed.
India and China just had their deadliest clash since the 1960s
By Alex Ward | June 16, 2020
India and China, the world’s two most populous nations, each armed with nuclear weapons, are in the
middle of their most severe crisis in decades — and it’s unclear how both nations will step back from
the brink.
At least 20 Indian troops were killed in a skirmish with Chinese forces in the Galwan Valley, a contentious territory in the high-altitude Ladakh region, on June 15 and 16, according to the Indian Army. Meanwhile,
there are unconfirmed reports that there were 43 casualties among Chinese troops. Still, it’s the deadliest
clash between the two countries on the border since 1967.
https://www.vox.com/2020/6/16/21293158/india-china-border-fight-dead-army
I recommend these two brief posts for the Indian perspective regarding the details of the incident:
https://stratnewsglobal.com/casualties-on-both-sides-in-lac-clash-says-india-10-points/
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1272962811656732672.html
For updated information, these are (fairly reliable) Indian journalists:
Nitin Gokhale:
https://twitter.com/nitingokhale
Saurav Jha:
https://twitter.com/sjha1618
http://delhidefencereview.com/
Shiv Aroor:
https://twitter.com/shivaroor
India is in cognitive dissonance.
The propaganda machinery cannot fool sane people of the world anymore.
Who are these sane people? I think you’re referring to China/pakistan? The rest of the world seems to be insane by that standard!
Indian lays claim Chinese acted unilaterally on status quo.
https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/india/latest-news-todays-breaking-news-live-updates-16th-june-2020
Now everybody remembers how India acted unilaterally annexing Indian Occupied Kashmir. A disputed region and placing the territories leaders under house arrest and locking down it’s population. Surely, you don’t want to project a headline of double standards!
J&K already belongs to India – it’s anything but an occupation unlike Pakistan which has indeed occupied 1/3 of Kashmir illegally by attacking the independent state in 1948 which forced its king to join India to protect his state.
Once you accept above fact, we can talk about changes in constitution for J&K done last year. Not before that.
Many hundreds of thousands of soldiers with horrendous civilian casualties over decades and it’s but anything like an occupation. Stop following Israel’s lead and engage in proper bilateral talks you keep telling everyone!
Is that why your ideologues killed Ghandi? Would he have objected to your benevolent claims.
You say Kashmir was an independent state. Meaning not yours. Well done.
You say it was the kings possession who was forced to sign a treaty with you? Was it his possession. Wasn’t he the English puppet ruler. Did he consult his people of their wishes.
You say unless you accept it’s ours we can’t proceed? Therein lies the problem. You exposed it well.
Despite the unethical facts above, a puppet ruler with no mandate, signs an accession agreement with a special status, which you decide to abrogate unilaterally, therefore, illegally.
And yet, then till this day despite international assurances that those people would get to decide their fate you have forestalled them.
Isn’t the sensible thing to sit down with Pakistan and China and resolve this issue like adults.
No, your govt claims Pakistan Kashmir too and Aksai Chin. On official record. You want to destabilise the whole region. Derail China’s CPEC and BRI initiatives through Pakistan and Tibet. Disrupt over $70 billion dollars in investments. Are you out of your mind. These are delusions of grandeur. You are being played by an egregious desperate empire to salvage them from a rising foe.
It’s a shame you are choosing this role. It means you haven’t matured but regressed. This applies to radicals on all sides. You won’t have to pay for almost a million soldiers dictating and tyrannising a civilian population and you won’t have an insurgency even fuelled from outside to contend with. Millions that can be spent on the massive poverty that already pervades. It will only end in a catastrophic break up for you and the region. More importantly, devastation upon devastation for the people.
Have a think about it, carefully.
I really appreciate this article and the comments as well!! After reading this I came up with a statement, but because I am not well versed in this I posed it as a question to a Nationalist friend. True or False “Like Israel, India is another imperially trained attack dog of the United States, threatening world security.” My friend had a lot to say about China that was consistent with MSM programming. I’m inclined to believe after reading the article and the comments that the above statement is true. Any more comments?
”Like Israel, India is another imperially trained attack dog of the United States, threatening world security.”
Excellent synopsis, William Spencer. The ”only” difference is that while Israel is a settler colonial implant with artificially high living standards for the Oppressor Jewry, India’s crackpot government gladly rolls the country right down in the gutter, offering horrendous poverty, violence, hatreds, and rampant corruption as Hindutva’s vision of societal progress.
Israel is an attack dog of the US. No doubts on that.
India is not an attack dog of the US. Historically it is a founding member of the Non Aligned Movement. Is it cozying up a little bit too much to the US ? Yes and it shouldn’t. But an attack dog? No.
Dear William, what you’ve read in this article is pure propaganda. It’s only telling you one side of the story and that with lies and unnecessary emphasis. Do you know China has been encircling India with so-called “String of Pearls” since long to contain its rise? Do you know it provides ammunition to Insurgency groups in north-east part of India making peace very difficult in this region?
China has admitted that “Pakistan is our Israel”. As a nation Pakistan has no history (other than that it was a part of ancient Indian civilization). The existence of Pakistan is based on hatred toward India. If that’s gone there won’t be a reason for its existence. Hence Pakistan’s rulers can never make peace with India; whenever there’s some attempt from the civilian government, the military establishment orchestrates a terror attack in India (read about 1999 Kargil war and 2016 Pathankot airbase terror attack).
Once you research the above points you’ll realize this article by a pakistani is plain propaganda.
India was illegally trespassing and constructing defense facilities across the border into Chinese territory in the Galwan Valley region, leaving Chinese border troops no other option but to make necessary moves in response.
Galwan valley was never a disputed territory, it was recognized by the Chinese to be on the indian side of LAC.
The author completely missed the abrogation of article 370 of the indian constitution by india. India moved in unilaterally to declare the whole of ladakh as it’s own last year in august and openly declare in it’s parliament about annexing aksai chin (chinese controlled of ladakh). This move upset the status quo of china.
The author completely missed the abrogation of article 370 of the indian constitution by india. India moved in unilaterally to declare the whole of ladakh as it’s own last year in august and openly declare in it’s parliament about annexing aksai chin (chinese controlled of ladakh). This move upset the status quo of china.
the author did mention about it, i failed to read the article completely. I apologize.
The following retired indian army men have good analysis of the present situation, all of them have one thing in common, they are blamin mody for the current situation.
ajay shukla is the first person who broke the news about chinese incursion and indian chinese escalation along the LAC:
https://twitter.com/ajaishukla
He also writes a blog
Lt Gen H S Panag:
https://twitter.com/rwac48
Pravin Sawhney is an excellent military analyst and editor of a military magzine:
https://twitter.com/PravinSawhney
I think it is high time that India and China solve the border disputes finally by peaceful negotiations and ‘give and take’ approach. The border conflicts will be deleterious to either party and especially India should beware of not falling into the American trap and be used as an anti-Chinese shoulder for America to shoot.
This has been true since the 1950s. China then suggested a straightforward swap; China would renounce claims to NEFA and India to Aksai Chin. This would have prevented the 1962 war and subsequent three decade freezing of relations, but the Nehru regime took it as a sign of China’s “weakness” and refused.
Removed – breaks moderation policy. Mod.
The title of the following article is self explanatory –
Answer to What happened in the Galwan Valley, and how should India respond? by Naman Chakraborty https://www.quora.com/What-happened-in-the-Galwan-Valley-and-how-should-India-respond/answer/Naman-Chakraborty-1?ch=3&share=6bae63f9&srid=u8pug
In America they will be very happy to see India and China involved in a conflict that can increase with nuclear weapons, if India go on war with China, EEUU Will be the winner.
A wrongly informed analysis.
The report says, “The recent issue arose when India fortified its position in Ladakh disputed territory, which India included in its union territory on August 5, 2019, unilaterally. In contrast, it was a recognized disputed territory, and both countries having a claim over the area”
China attacked India in 1962, took away Aksai chin. It was followed by some diplomacy and some ‘Line of Actual Control’ was decided. Yes, the LAC is non-demarcated on maps as China is not ready to do this. But both the countries and their Army knows the area. Since 1962, there had been no claim by China about Galwan valley. The disputed area is where both the armies patrol without firearms separately.
This time, China came up with heavy weaponry and settled in the area, taking control of 60 sq km. they also demanded that Galwan valley is theirs. That is the cause of dispute.
The reason behind this is simple. China has built infrastructure in their occupied area whereas India has not done so in past. Recently, India is making a road within its own territory close to LAC. The road will be for an old airfield (Daulat Beg Oldie).
Modi had tried to woo China and made many China visits. Even India didn’t utter a single word about South China sea. Now Modi is drifting away from china, closer to Russia and USA. That may rattle China too.
The author is right.
This-
The recent issue arose when India fortified its position in Ladakh disputed territory, which India included in its union territory on August 5, 2019, unilaterally. In contrast, it was a recognized disputed territory, and both countries having a claim over the area
led to this-
This time, China came up with heavy weaponry and settled in the area, taking control of 60 sq km. they also demanded that Galwan valley is theirs. That is the cause of dispute.
China has always claimed the whole of ladakh. Galwan valley, which is in ladakh, is agreed by the chinese to be on the indian side of LAC which came in to being in 1993 talks between india and china. It does not mean that china no longer claim ladakh (hense, galwan valley).
drifting away from china
and
closer to Russia
are oxymoron.
India has turned to Russia now to resolve the issue, this speaks volumes about the Russian-Chinese alliance.
Wrong.
China can claim anything. Tomorrow it can claim New Delhi so what, does it get a right to push its troops into Delhi? If both have recognized Galwan valley to be on the India side of the LAC, India can build infra their because China has been doing the same thing on its side of the LAC despite that also being a disputed territory.
China is the aggressor here; no amount of white-washing with cleverness can refute that.
China can claim anything. Tomorrow it can claim New Delhi so what
China claims ladakh and arunanchal pradesh regions of india since the beginning. Does new delhi come within these two territories?
China is the aggressor here; no amount of white-washing with cleverness can refute that.
Kashmir is a international disputed issue and any party involved cannot take decisions unilaterally according to UN convention. India violated this by changing the status of ladakh and kashmir last year in august and it openly boasted about grabing aksai chin from the chinese. This led to the change in status quo of China. China responded back by securing galwan heights.
So india cannot call china an aggressor since india started the aggression first.
The US knew that India violated the UN convention but egged India on knowing full well that China will come down hard.
And what’s in it for the US? To sow enmity between India and China.
Ladakh isn’t “Indian territory” and wasn’t even claimed by India until 1954.
What is now Arunachal Pradesh was entirely Tibetan territory until 1913 and partly (the Tawang tract) Tibetan territory until 1951.
Even the British Simla Conference of 1913 acknowledged Chinese suzerainty over all of Tibet.
contentious statement removed … mod
Excellent bar one tiny glitch. Tiny.’—the Indo-Pacific Treaty with Japan, Australia, and the US.’ The Japanese are being polite while not wishing to get involved. Neither is Australia mainly because India is reluctant this time to engage militarily with Australia. Both countries prefer another way to interact and that is not what is on the US agenda. A surprise perhaps given how craven Australia submits to the US. India recognises this Treaty as far too gauche to consider it. The Amerikans are being as suave as usual and it is not working. As for the research you have revealed much. However I must add it has not been all one way for India either. Pakistan’s belligerence since day one notwithstanding. Kashmir, well I was there decades ago and an eager intelligent Muslim dearly wished the province to by under Muslim rule. Something Muslims revere given what is commanded in the Koran. I was also there after the Bangladesh war in Calcutta as it was written then. Refugees who had no wish to return for obvious reasons. That war too was not sought. India has had a history of many invasions. As for the PRC they truly have no expansionist agenda for the moment to advance militarily. This hot spot, festering for decades can be blamed on Perfidious Albion for sure. They have left a mess globally everywhere. However that was then and this is now. I am sure neither countries leaders will loose the plot. Your research is indeed clarifying and necessary.
Both the neighboring countries provides home to a total of 2.7 billion people. This accounts for third of the world population. The economic development and global influence of both nations have rapidly increased over the recent years. They are somewhat equally progressing towards organizing their defensive aspirations. Most importantly, they hold the deadly nuclear weapons.
This means any delicate escalation in the ongoing conflict arising from this region will have global implications. As much as the peace is required, the current scenarios suggest that it will take lot of compromises and patience from both nations for de-escalating the conflict.
This article by ex-indian diplomat complements the author of this article and puts into some perspective India’s folly:
https://indianpunchline.com/1962-india-china-war-redeux/
The real fact is China illegally took over Tibet where this border zone is and India is quite right wanting to do what it has. China has been the aggressor in most conflicts.
China wants to encroach on previously accepted and agreed Indian territory and is prepared to go to war for that? Go ahead. Let them war.
While China fights India and allocates massive resources to fighting and trying to win in the South West, it will have exposed its other areas very deliciously. Enough for ahem.. the west to stir fry eat and digest it.
So…come along. Welcome.
i see the hindutvah interwebz army occupies the comment section under this article😂
I am almost impressed with their ability to pollute every comment section that dont praise modi and his ilk, it takes commitment to attack so many blogs.
It certainly reinforces my biases against “them” tho, luckily a few sane and reasoned Indians also weighed in so there is still hope for the Indian people i hope.
Very true. As I said, it would be dishonest not to admit the fact that Hindunazis, like their Ukronazi kith and kin, are capable of truly impressive outbursts of anger worthy of a better cause. Indeed, they both share a horribly mistaken belief that perpetual screamfests against the West’s enemies will boost their prospects as ”junior partners”. This approach has long since lost any semblance of credibility. Neoliberalism doesn’t care about public grievances — however retrograde and reactionary the latter — but now it looks even more stupid as the West is losing. Ukronazis and Hindunazis are genuinely happy to descend into the sewers in ’distinguished company’.
The best comment so far in this context was from Bankutsu in Global Times where he said something like ” I don’t quite understand why China and India are fighting, when in this fight the ultimate winner will be America.”
It reminded me of a story from PANCHATANTRA an ancient Indian collection of interrelated animal fables in Sanskrit verse and prose, arranged within a frame story. The surviving work is dated to roughly 200 BCE. —-
A MONKEY AND TWO CATS
Once upon a time two cats found a piece of cheese and cut it into two pieces. But one piece was slightly bigger than the other. Both the cats wanted the bigger piece. Then they went ton a monkey and asked to sort out the matter.
The monkey said, “Don’t worry. I’ll make both the pieces equal. Then it took a bite from the bigger piece. But this made the other piece larger. So it took a bite from the other piece. This continued till the pieces became very small.
Seeing this, the cats pleaded, “Sir! We are satisfied. Let us have the pieces now.”
The shrewd monkey replied, “This is my fee for sorting out the problem.” Saying this, it gobbled up the remaining cheese.
The End.
Removed. Mod.
Big statement by modi:
“No one entered Indian territory, no Indian posts taken over”
(https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/neither-has-anyone-intruded-into-indian-territory-nor-has-anyone-taken-over-any-post-pm-modi/articleshow/76470868.cms)
It means that the indian troops crossed into the Chinese side to destroy the PLA camps and PLA troops retaliated to the indian aggression
Not just that, it signals unconditional surrender by Modi and the implicit ceding of Aksai Chin, which India has been unilaterally claiming since 1 July 1954, to China.
Why not it be according to the agreement reached between them? And what if there is no tension at all? Everybody know, that all the medium of disseminating information is controlled. They feed us what they want us to feed. All the sensations and drama is for the engagement and manipulation of peoples’ minds. They have succeeded in turning people into meat robots, a hollow beings with no original thoughts. For the people, now, a deserted piece of land somewhere in the mountains, thousands of kilometers away where they have never been to and never will be, is more important than their own self. And they will continue to suffer.
The title of the article is incorrect. The article mentions:
>>At the outset, prime minister clarified that neither IS anyone inside our territory nor IS any of our post captured,” the government said in a statement,
(emphasis mine)
It does not mean that no one entered Indian side. What it means that LAC had been restored, irrespective of which side encroached.
What so ever are the objectives by the two regional power, human beings will be going to suffer, we are not living in the 18 century, any misadventure can burn the entire region.
Very good and informative article to under standing the geopolitical situation in the region.
A very well-researched and well-documented analysis. It also covers most of points of China-India historical differences, left over by history, which is proving to be the Achilles’s heal. The future arena of conflict could be much enlarged. Any misadventure of either side will threaten the entire world, not “half of the world,” as predicted by the writer. Let us see how does the international community react?
I am adding location of the bridge where the clash happened. One can clearly see that this place is at least 2 miles from LAC inside India .
https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+Gallowan+River/@34.7613501,77.5381576,9.41z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x38fe8ef048f02ea9:0x2ceab753912f46f1!8m2!3d34.7589668!4d78.1701053
K Chandra says: “One can clearly see that this place is at least 2 miles from LAC inside India .”
— No, it is not. You are using Google – which does NOT have the updated knowledge about the remote borders. Further, Google is well known for being anti-China. Do you want to guess which side is Google always supporting in all the disputes involving China? You are too ignorant if you don’t know the answer.
Fair enough. Here are few other links in decreasing of their affinity to China. Each one of them shows this place clearly inside India.
Coordinates:
34.9681,77.9919
Chinese Baidu:
Location not markable but it is about 11 miles west of this place while Indian territory starts about 1 mile west of this place (as per baidu). You may need to zoom out to see political boundary.
https://map.baidu.com/?shareurl=1&poiShareUid=09185c56a5af655ef1193765
(I have preserved screen grab of this as of today)
Russian Yandex:
https://bit.ly/3hWkFSN or https://yandex.com/maps/?ll=76.657572%2C34.850291&mode=search&sll=10.854186%2C49.182076&sspn=126.914063%2C45.686913&text=34.9681%2C%2077.9919&z=7.95
Open Street maps.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/34.9681/77.9919
American Bing:
https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=e73f2a0d-3fff-452b-9e22-4987e1fb4ffc&cp=34.891559~78.149044&lvl=10&v=2&sV=2&form=S00027
K Chandra says: “Each one of them shows this place clearly inside India.”
— Not true, e.g. Baidu does NOT show it to be “clearly inside India”.
Furthermore, these are all IT companies, which do not have the expertise, authority nor legitimacy to decide national boundaries. Finally, you are confusing disputed national boundaries with Line of Actual Control (LAC) – the conflict occurred in the LAC, which may or may not be the same as the boundaries claim by either countries.
>>Not true, e.g. Baidu does NOT show it to be “clearly inside India”.
I am not sure how clear you want but it is possible that may have looked at something else. I am uploading the screen grab of baidu here:
https://ibb.co/qn4vJWG
>>Furthermore, these are all IT companies, which do not have the expertise, authority nor legitimacy to decide national boundaries.
You should have put this argument right in first post rather than peddling conspiracy theory about Google.
>> Finally, you are confusing disputed national boundaries with Line of Actual Control (LAC) – the conflict occurred in the LAC,
Nothing happened in LAC. Its a line. Incidents happen on one side of LAC.
My assertion is that the incident happened on Indian side of LAC and I am presenting publicly available data to back my assertion. You are indulging in shifting goal posts. From conspiracy, to lack of clarity of map to lack of authority to lack my ability to comprehend.
Cheers and have a nice day.
K Chandra says: “I am uploading the screen grab of baidu here:”
— My screen does not look anything like what you uploaded – it maybe due to different versions or different geographical regions we live. But let’s me concede that Baidu shows that it is within Indian boundary – that still does not negated the point that Baidu doesn’t have the authority, etc to define national boundary.
K Chandra says: “You should have put this argument right in first post rather than peddling conspiracy theory about Google.”
— LOL. You are talking as if they are mutually exclusive arguments: that Google is anti-China and Google has no expertise for territorial disputes. Furthermore, I did make that argument in the first post when I said “Google – which does NOT have the updated knowledge about the remote borders”, didn’t I? Lastly, as I said, it is well known among Chinese Internet users that Google is very anti-China – and you should know the beef that Google has with China. If you think that is just “conspiracy theory”, why don’t you investigate how Google mark Doklam (the other well known dispute recently) to see whose territory does it put in.
K Chandra says: “My assertion is that the incident happened on Indian side of LAC and I am presenting publicly available data to back my assertion.”
— As I said, those lines in the maps of Google, etc are national boundaries that each sides want to claim. They don’t represent the LAC that is being maintained currently, or 2 months, 2 years or x years ago – Google simply does not have that info – and definitely not up to the few kilometers resolution that you take for granted. You are confusing official national boundaries with LAC. Again, take a look at Doklam example. It is well known that Doklam has been under Chinese control for years (and Indians intruded into Chinese LAC to stop the road construction) – but look at the national boundary that being mark there – does it even resemble the LAC that is maintained today?
K Chandra says: “You are indulging in shifting goal posts. From conspiracy, to lack of clarity of map to lack of authority to lack my ability to comprehend.”
— No, I am not. I stand by every single points I made, and each stands on its own even if the other falls – and you have not refuted any single one.
Here is the location of bridge where the clash happened. Look at it and you decide who crossed the border and went to other’s side.
Short link: https://bit.ly/3esIfV3
Long link:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B058'20.2%22N+77%C2%B059'31.1%22E/@34.9311552,77.9751627,12.5z/data=!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x38fe8ef048f02ea9:0x2ceab753912f46f1!2sThe+Gallowan+River!3b1!8m2!3d34.7589668!4d78.1701053!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d34.9722658!4d77.9919682
Too late Mr. Chandra,
Your Supreme Leader already informed the world that “No outsider was inside Indian territory in Ladakh nor had any border post of the Indian Army captured by outside forces.” Was he lying?
>>Too late Mr. Chandra,
Its never too late to know facts. I collected the location of Shyok river bridge and published for the benefit of community here. I have great deal of respect of Saker and what he is doing and I benefit from this site and hope others too do from my post.
>>Your Supreme Leader
I assume you are referring to Prime Minister Narendra Modi. He is not Supreme Leader. He is elected Prime Minister similar. India does not have presidential system but a British style system. He is no more Supreme Leader than President Putin or President Trump.
>>already informed the world that “No outsider was inside Indian territory in Ladakh nor had any border post of the Indian Army captured by outside forces.” Was he lying?
There is a possibility of that. He won’t be first politician to lie. He needs to run a big country. There are several possiblities why he may have lied:
1) He may have developed cold feet about war with China.
2) He may have been advised by his generals to keep it low beacuse they may have developed cold feet or may not be prepared.
3) He may have been advised by other international leader (or potential mediators like Russians/Americans) to keep it low.
4) It may have been instigated by some rouge fifth column element in Chinese army and China may have promised some action.
5) He may be waiting for next election to arrive before he escalates it.
Lets not be under illusion that a war between China and India will be like between US and Panama. No. They both are nuclear and have 1.4 billion people, each. The war is not in anyone’s interest, at least not in China and India’s interest. Although some other countries (Like the ‘free world’ and Pakistan etc) are salivating at this prospect. A conflict with India over remote part of occupied Tibet has zero support in China. An escalation with China over Ladakh is politically very good for Modi and bad for CCP.