I love the EU and its institutions! They are so, sooooooooooooo “democratic” that each time they take a decision I tell myself “thanks God I stopped believing all this nonsense about democracy, human rights, the rule of law, or even basic fairness in the 1990s. This time around, the European Court of Human Right rejected the interim measures requested by Russia. In other words, the ECHR does not see any need to quickly impose any interim measures to protect the Russian and Russian-speaking population of the Nazi occupied Ukraine. From the point of view of the court, there is no urgency and, therefore, no need for interim (provisional) measures to protect anyone.
See for yourself how even western courts don’t give a damn about Russians or their circumstances:
Note that when liberal pedophiles, homosexuals or 5th columnists from Russia complain to the ECHR, the latter always takes quick action and sides with the plaintiff. That, my friends, is “blind justice” western style :-)
I am still waiting for somebody (anybody!) to release the 300 pages of the Russian application to the ECHR. So far, neither the Russians nor the Court have released anything.
The Saker
Any statement made by the ‘authorities’ in the West may safely presumed to be false – either deliberately so, or merely based on their own insular, retrograde view of world affairs.
william williams
The word “deliberate” is the most accurate. What is the EU ? It is a banker created and controlled entity, existing to curtail the sovereign status of European states. It is a private empire of private bankers. It is also the civilian component of NATO. As NATO moves eastwards, so does the EU. When Yanukovich in 2014 went to sign that Association Agreement with the EU, the EU perfidiously introduced a provision that Ukraine must join NATO (!!!). Yanukovich refused. The EU and NATO instigate a coup d’etat against him, “democracy” and “human rights” are “introduced”, and the population of Ukraine shrinks from 50 million in 2014 to 36 or 25 million today (analysts are not sure which of these two numbers is accurate). Now the bulk of the population regrets the coup d’etat. Too late for that.
For the ECHR to reach the verdict it did is not surprising, but expected, as the Court is anti-Russian, just like the EU. And finally, the EU has still not accepted the Russian Sputnik vaccine, the best on the market. Again, not surprising, as not only would Western corporations lose money, but Russia would gain in prestige. I myself have taken the vaccine and have no complaints what so ever.
This will accelerate the moves to get Donetsk and Lugansk citizenship to enable the citizens to obtain Russian Federation citzenship. If the EU is unwilling to uphold their human rights, then they must protect themselves by obtaining Russian Federation citizenship.
”If the EU is unwilling to uphold their human rights, then they must protect themselves by obtaining Russian Federation citizenship.”
For heaven’s sake, Kaiama — can’t you see this will have the Russophobes respond by imposing ten thousand trillion sanctions, each one more terrific than the previous one?! /sarc off/
The Russians surely anticipated this.
The timing just after the Biden Merkel meeting, and their hope of an extension beyond 2024 for transit fees to Uki,
might have had something to do with it (or not) ! Along the lines of, you want an extension, we want Minsk adhered to, and here’s 300 pages of incentive for you to force it through.
of course the russians anticipated. this was the method they chose in a legalistic way to show the WORLD the ECHR is a sham ”’political ””’ court with little or nothing to do with actual unbiased rule of law and human rights.
if you operate in a legal manner as putin and lavrov do you must first play ”’their”’ game in order to EXPOSE the underlying fraud the ECHR is while pretending to be legitimate.
this also gives them room to use force down the road since they can say to the world …we exhausted all peaceful rule of law avenues and were rebuffed every time.
Agree 👍
Lavrov had his fun. He did not succeed. Now, it is Shoigu’s turn. :)
i agree to. But no force is needed. Russia only needs to protects its people. The west does not want war it wants it population afraid. So they money stays home and they can inflate away their debt. Off course there is always a possibility of war. The western people have now been indoctrinated since 2007 that Russia/Putin is bad. The law is dead in the west. Yes divorce law and local criminal law is still working but the bigger laws do not apply anymore. One tiny western country in Europe government lost a court case in the fist leg and within four hours (4) they won in appeal. The person who one in the first leg was giving press conferences driving back home and received a call that the appeal would take place within 3 hours. The case was about an evening clock because of corona. The government lost in the first round but within 4 hours they could still install the evening clock.
I see that as a good thing.Hopefully finally all Russians will see that the ECHR for what it is,just a stooge for the Russia-haters. From now forward Russia won’t have to pretend to care about the ECHR,and only do what is good for them.So going forward Russia just needs to do what’s needed to protect her people,and tell the ECHR to pound sand.
Great! Let the action begin at long last. Smash the abomi-Nation of ”Ukraine” forever.
I really can’t tell for sure if the Ukronazis’ ”intellectual status” really is all garbage as compared to that of the Euro-trash. It’s plain to see they deserve each other.
I think the final “nail in the coffin” of Ukronazi self-respect has to be the Rada’s new law, passed under pressure by the IMF, for Ukraine’s land to be sold out from under the people. What sort of “nationalists” would ever allow that ? Many many times, the Ukronazis have demonstrated their power to bend the Kiev governments to their will. From their lack of action against the sale of the Ukraine, we can conclude that the Ukronazis are very stupid and/or their leaders have been bribed, but either way, they have grossly betrayed their own country.
I too await the publication of, release of, the 300 pages of the Russian application to the ECHR.
These pages may now become the basis of indictment drawn in any Court, but probably Russian Courts, and then… This maneuver is preliminary to the bailiff taking action to enforce Court judgements.
And naturally it exposes the “ECHR” is a lie. As I have pointed out, lies are wonderful ways to discover Truths. In this example Ru has forced “court” to confess it’s a cryptonazi front organization pretending to have legitimacy. That’s a pity, as everyone knows what comes when Law is set aside.
I don’t think Russia expected any action from the court, it was only for the record and to prove once again it’s corruption.
If I may add: this court complaint is documented proof that Moscow is attempting every avenue to resolve problems peacefully. This may come in handy if Moscow ever has to unleash the full power of the Russian military against Ukraine and NATO.
I agree with you.
Part of the answer is here: https://eclj.org/geopolitics/echr/conflits-d-interets-entre-juges-et-ong
From the Russophobes’ dull, tiresome legalese:
That makes sense. Fascist hooliganism has never involved ”a serious risk of irreparable harm of a core right under the European Convention of Human Rights” — it’s literally how these ”Human Rights” are enforced.
Well, if your threshold for ‘serious risk of irreparable harm’ is Operation Shock N Awe-style operations, they are probably right.
Most people would operate a somewhat lower threshold, it has to be said…..
EC”H”R’s judges are a snakery of soros affiliated corrupted individuals, as a study showed some years ago.
No wonder they rejected the Untermenschen’s request.
I LIVE IN EU. AND THIS ECHR DECISION HAS A WORTH OF A DEAD RATS FART. TODAY I AM ASHAMED TO PAY TAXES IN THIS INTERSTATE SH**HOLE!
PS: I truly did not expect anything more, but please leave my post as it is, so that those creatures from ECHR can take some legal measures against me.
Please do not use capitals – breaks site policy. Any further will go to trash. Mod.
I did an internet search on “ECHR” case 36958/21″ and found a attachment to the press release concerning the interstate application. I selected the embedded hyperlink to the Russian Federation General Prosecutor’s Office and arrived at an annex document. It’s about ten pages long.
See: https://european–court–help-ru.translate.goog/mezhgosudarstvennaja-zhaloba-rossija-protiv-ukrainy-ot-22-07-2021-goda-36958-21/?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=ajax,elem
How the ECHR can state it doesn’t have the full application is puzzling since it has been assigned a case number, that being 36958/21.
The complaint filed by Russia primarily focuses on the events that began in 2014 including the MH17 disaster. Since this is Russia’s first interstate application to the ECHR, it might be part of a strategy to submit a multi-count complaint to the court and observe its initial reaction or in other words, “test the waters” of justice, hoping that one or more counts would be judged against Kiev.
I don’t believe the application has been denied. If you look at the ECHR table of active cases, it can be seen there is no annotation under the column titled “Decisions”.
See: https://www.echr.coe.int/sites/search_eng/pages/search.aspx#{%22fulltext%22:[%2236958/21%22]} .
Open the PDF document titled, Inter-State Applications and scroll down to page 3 of 3 “Russia v. Ukraine”
The court chose to decline any interim measure (rule 39, see: https://www.echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=applicants&c=#n1365511916164_pointer ) against the Ukraine since the plea was a historical construct of voluminous detail but did not identify a cause for an immediate order of action for abuses against the citizens of Donbass and Crimea.
Perhaps the ECHR would be more receptive under Rule 39 if Russia was more specific and identified citizens by name and how they have been denied human rights.
”Note that when liberal pedophiles, homosexuals or 5th columnists from Russia complain to the ECHR, the latter always takes quick action and sides with the plaintiff.”
Haha, maybe that’s because ECHR actually means Esteemed Company Hating Russia. Indeed, being an EU institution, one may also interpret the rubbish as Euro-trash Can’t Help Russia.
Q.E.D.
Will the inaction of the court give Russia the right, or the legitimacy, to take protective or repressive measures?
The legitimacy — hell yes! And Russia will, finally, settle the scores. The Euro-trash, most notably Gównopolska, will be quite upset. How sad (not).
I bet the Polskie gnoje (if google translated right) are in the Unhinged States like the Unamerican Uncubans in Southern Florida. “People are dying in Cuba” Like drone attacks are going to help matters there, unless you are a neoconservative neoliberal and want more deaths (no one here, except perhaps the occasional troll). Well, I am sure even on a per capita basis it is worse in The Unhinged States, Columbia, and Banderastan.
I’ve heard of claims that people in the U.S. get to vote in elections of some Eastern European countries. Anyone here heard of such a thing? Sources? Are Poles in Poland really the / a problem?
The ECHR has about the same credibility as the OPCW. NONE. Would the latter investigate ZATO’s use of chemical weapons in Syria by UK Proxy White Helmets/HTS aka Al Kid’ya’not or US-Israel depleted uranium attacks these last 2/3 decades in the Middle-East?
So nothing to see here! Best withdraw your representatives from these 4 Letter Anglo-Zionist ANACRONYM Agencies, as they all amount to this one – Removed. Please be careful with your language. Mod.
This was no surprise at all, for anyone. The Russians expected such an outcome from the start. They filled the request just for accomplishing a formality – a necessary step, in a long pathway.
So, like in a chess game, let’s wait for the next move from the Russians.
NaziUkies, just wait and see – you are the ultimate target. Step by step, the Russians will go tightening the grip on you – till time comes for the settling of accounts
Hate to have to say it – “Blind Freddy” could see that one coming…………
Dear Charlie,
I saw this coming just as the Russians would have. We all knew that the court was bent once they couldn’t get Milosevic and they had to suicide him.
In other words, this has to be part of a longer strategy, as per any real chess game.
Sadly, all the human rights discourse, and institutions around it, are just righteous posturing for the real purpose of war propaganda. So, how can a human rights court protect an enemy against an ally? That would be defeating its purpose.
Russia probably expected it ! It is called going through the motions !
I understand that RF is yanking the chains of EU, all in jest.
ECHR must have jumped like a Pavlovian puppy upon hearing the sufferings in Xinjiang !
The ECHR is technically not part of the EU (European Union) but part of the so called Council of Europe (CoE) to which Russia is a member.
But that does not matter.
In the whole “West” there is no longer any search or respect for the truth on the part of official institutions or the mass media. Consequently there no longer is justice or no longer exists any real state of law. Justice in the West has been turned to a sham and Western states are currently descending into a quasi-fascist tyrannies.
I expect nothing to come out of Russia’s application.
In the long run I would expect that Russia will be sued in the ECHR on bogus charges, and convicted. I could imagine that Russia will eventually be forced to leave the CoE and other institutions that are infiltrated and basically run by the Empire.
Right now Russia is doing the right thing: It demonstrates to the world what a hypocritical double-faced lying system the West has become (if it ever was different).
@PaulSch
”Right now Russia is doing the right thing: It demonstrates to the world what a hypocritical double-faced lying system the West has become (if it ever was different).”
At bottom, the West never was different. The special thing about Russia is that unlike the hapless victims of Western aggression elsewhere she wasn’t vanquished by the genocidal scum and their ’European values’. When Russia has strong, perspicacious leaders such as Stalin and Putin, the West’s entire fabric of society — what passes for its ”leadership” in particular — stands out as the ugly, irrefutable garbage which it is. This fact constitutes the very oxygen of Western Russophobia in all its manifestations.
You’re wasting your time.
If y’all can survive without the jewish empire, go for it, if not you’re a Palestinian.
Same goes for China, but they want to sell stuff.
Else give life another decade, maybe a tad longer, to enjoy the blessing that was life on earth….that so few knew
The ECHR is NOT an institution of the EU. I didnt even bother with the rest.
Not officially ,but it operates as if it was. Only a fool wouldn’t be able to see that.
hah , namecalling: the true hallmark of the wise…
I didn’t mention anyone in particular as not knowing that. If you took that to mean you,then you only outed yourself.
The 300 … each page a Spartan battling swathes of EU russophobes.
TEP.
If any of you watch Russian TV you’ll notice that Putin is being shown on there a few times talking about Soviet arbitrarily drawn borders and now that the Soviet Union doesn’t exist neither should those arbitrarily drawn borders exist. it gives me hope all our lands will be returned
An anonymous commenter posting in another thread on the forum wrote this the other day:
Beg to differ. The fish rots from its head, and as the dismissal of Russia’s filed complaint to the ECHR proves, the all-encompassing stupidity is what allows this playing with fire. At the very least, if the EU’s Russophobes could contain their obsessions just a little longer and pretend being open minded, the Ukronazis would have survived to ”keep up the good work”, however short-lived.
Bottom line: Remunerating people for a very noble cause (Russophobia) that should be a selfless vocation infallibly invites greed, corruption, incompetence, and stupidity. The anonymous submission quoted above is totally wrong. The people setting the West’s policies with regard to any non-Western country are truly dumb and incompetent. Better still: If that is not the case with crucial adversarial countries, the West and the fools in charge of it are doomed.
They want another World War. What part of that do you not understand?
Everything they are doing is towards that objective. You think they can’t make peace with Russia, if they want to?
When faced with an economic crisis you can’t solve, start a World War.
Apart from one or two examples – Switzerland, Austria – Europe is an American occupied zone militarily, economically and culturally, without democracy or sovereignty. There is little point in addressing the monkey when the transatlantic organ-grinder is calling the shots.
@Anonymous.
You nailed right.
Hopefully this time we can annihilate mankind once for all.
We eagerly need a nuclear war.
Questions and answers
==================
Q: They want another World War. What part of that do you not understand?
A: I don’t understand how they can refute Russia’s proven military superiority. World War — well and good — but Putin has made it abundantly clear it won’t be fought on Russia’s soil this time around. While I certainly understand the yearning of the Russophobes for global conflagration, it’s beyond me how they can simply ignore the terms of combat as per Putin’s serious proclamation. He certainly isn’t bluffing.
Q: You think they can’t make peace with Russia, if they want to?
A: Nope. If so, they will have to start searching for somewhat more able people than Navalny, Sobchak, and Pussy Riot to achieve High Treason on the part of Moscow — the only (relatively) peaceful solution to the problem.
Fair enough?
1. What loss to Global Zionism if the West and the East beat eachother to bits? They are counting on Russian military prowess to make things interesting.
2. You are saying that the same people that Biden kneels in front of, if they wanted to make peace between West and East, they couldn’t?
2.1. If they don’t have the power to make peace, then how is it that they have the power to make war between West and Middle East, or West and East as is currently brewing?
2.2. Do you really believe that at the current trajectory, there won’t be a world war involving a likely RIC (Thanks Akram) Axis, and the Western allies?
2.3. What planet do you live on, where there is no WW3 clearly visible on the horizon? Can I move there?
Please take with with you,
It was a really quick response, as if the ECHR would not have to give a hint for any dilemma that it is absolutely biased. The quickness is evidently proportional to the level of prejudice, or to the readiness not only to obeyingly listen to their bosses, but, moreover, to meet their wishes in advance.
It seems that the ECHR with no hesitation ran into the trap set up by Kremlin. And much more.
The full name of the ECHR is European Court of Human Rights. We see the word “Human”.
Consequently, having on mind the diction of the ECHR decision, it means that the Russians are not humans to deserve human rights, and possibly protection of rights. There appears a legal dilemma: how to protect someone’s rights if it has no rights.
On the contrary, members of Azov Battalion (Azov Special Operations Detachment), which was incorporated into the National Guard of Ukraine (on 2014) have a full spectrum of human rights, whether they can be considered as humans or not (judging by their brutal actions against humans). Legally quite understandable (from the standpoint of the ECHR): if you abuse “rights” of those ones who have no rights then you do not break conventions and laws.
Imagine an application submitted to the Court of Human Rights in the Third Reich, complaining about mistreatment of human rights in Auschwitz II-Birkenau.
Now everybody knows what everybody knew about the ECHR, in obvious and bare form. 300 pages of documentation now becomes a monument of human rights or “human rights” (choose what you like).
Not to repeat the same things, I share views given in the comments:
PokeTheTruth on July 26, 2021 • at 4:19 pm EST/EDT (interesting details)
Ruben Bauer Naveira on July 26, 2021 • at 5:52 pm EST/EDT
PaulSch on July 26, 2021 • at 7:16 pm EST/EDT
Here are the type of submissions made to and rejected by the court:
After mass murders, residents of Donbass are not on the way with evil Ukraine – a resident of Horlovka
I grew up in the Great Country of the USSR. History we taught thoroughly. Grandparents-parents saw the war with their own eyes. Therefore, children knew a lot about the Great Domestic and children. But we considered peaceful life something unshakable. Maidan was not taken seriously for the first time. Until they started shooting there. For me, the war began at that moment. Far away, on TV, but dead people are already war.
Next, the Maidan was watched wary. And he became more and more dangerous, and people were insane. In winter, Donbass already realized that we are not on the way with this evil Ukraine. From now on, the war came to us. Tanks and fighters right away. Bloody May 2 in Odessa and May 9 in Mariupol. Then a friend’s call from Donetsk on May 26 He lives on Azotny, near the airport. She couldn’t talk… She repeated a hundred times – airplanes over the house, shells are breaking nearby. I lost my voice from fear… Then the tragedy of June 2 in Lugansk.
Forever crashed into memory with fragments, but still alive, a woman in a red blouse… She didn’t have time to realize that she lives for the last seconds. And then tragic events became a daily reality… Death mowed without analysis… families… The family who hid three children in the bathroom lost all together. The shell got into this tiny room. Family with two children… Everyone died. For the rest of my life, I will not forget on July 27, mommy and baby in her arms in a puddle of blood on the grass… Christina and Kirochka Beetle.
Every day mourning summaries and photos of the deceased… It was so scary… I also have children and grandchildren of the 2 s and 4 s. And the war that is around, above your head… From which there is nowhere to hide. Fear and powerlessness are the feelings of those days. An empty city. Closed stores. Smoke and burning. Abandoned homes, dogs… Collection of medicines for wounded and rations for starving elderly. Both reports on ′′ Korsa ′′ and ′′ Self Defense ′′ from which were not broken day or night. Little grandson sleeping in the hallway on the floor.
It seems safer there. New Year 2015 was celebrated under the screeching of shells. The military map knew to the tooth. We watched a millimeter how slowly and hard the boiler locks in Debaltsevo. And losses, funeral… We didn’t go anywhere. We were in Horlivka all the time. The 14th year can only be forgotten if you completely lose your memory. Our children and our grandchildren have seen and heard everything. You can’t erase everyone’s memory. How did the war change me? When they ask me: how I feel about Ukraine I have one answer – I have nothing to do with it and I do not want to have anything to do with it. Never ever. Under no guise. In general.
Natalia B. Horlovka
The author’s stylistics and punctuation has been preserved.
In the project ′′ How I met the beginning of the war ′′ every resident of Donbass can tell how exactly his life changed, what happened in his fate with the beginning of fighting in Donbass. It is necessary that the whole world learn about the troubled days of 2014 when the civil war began.
You can send your story to us at: pismo@donbasstoday.ru
https://donbasstoday.ru/posle-massovyh-ubijstv-zhitelyam…/
I’ve thought this was the smart answer:
Russia will leave ECHR in case of denial in Ukraine
Russia’s lawsuit against Ukraine in ECHR is a logical step that should have been taken seven years ago, says the correspondent ′′ Donbass Today ′′ with reference to the statement of political scientist Sergei Mikheev on the air of the TV channel ′′ Saviour “.
Mikheev believes that if the decision of the ECHR is made in favor of Ukraine, Russia will leave this organization:
′′ If the ECHR says that all this matters at all, it will show its full political engagement, I believe that after that we will get a completely legal excuse to leave this organization. Go out, forget about her, spit on her and pretend it never happened “.
https://donbasstoday.ru/rossija-pokinet-espch-v-sluchae…/
Yes, indeed the EHCR is that: filled by Russophobia. The only sense I see the Russian Federation made such case to EHCR is to wait its foregone Russophobic outcome to definitively get rid of it.
par for the course. Putin and Russia are just laying markers down, for posterity, they make the effort to pursue fairness and justice, the West doesn’t, it shows its institutions and Govts are rotten, corrupt and biased. This is good, it shows citizens that their institutions are no longer viable, and of course if/when this all blows up, the track record will be there for history to note those who made efforts to avoid violence and hatred where in the right, or had no other options, than to do what had to be done. I refuse to get annoyed about this stuff any more, it just proves how the Russians are in the right and the West haven’t a clue what they’re doing even with their own co opted and captured ‘independent’ institutions. The west seems intent on making themselves an even bigger laughing stock almost every week it seems.
Do people not know the ECHR is not part of the EU? It falls under the Council of Europe of which Russia is a member. This seems to be a common error, but not one geopolitical analysts should be making
The ECHR might not be an EU institution. However, what really matters is that it is a 100% Euro-trash institution. Staffed by handsomely remunerated European Russophobes in the service of imperialist and outright fascist reaction. Should not fool anyone with at least half a brain about the identical nature of the ECHR,and the EU.
https://youtu.be/JWFSKAKwLqI. Russia will review it’s Soviet borders if NATO tries anything in Ukraine.
Do you have access to a translation please?
It’s very easy to use YouTube’s own translation facility.
1. Go to the Youtube site you want to watch.
2. Click on Settings, the gear-like icon.
3. Within Settings, click on Subtitles/CC. It says Russian (auto-generated), but hang in there.
4. The next screen gives you two options. The bottom option is Auto-translate. Click that one.
5. Scroll down through the huge selection of languages until you find English, or whatever you prefer.
6. Click on English or whatever language you want.
You will get Englsh subtitles in a few seconds.
It’s machine translation, not perfect, so you may have to re-think what it says. It’s phonetic so sometimes proper names (cities, people, etc.) are translated as if it’s a Russian word. Less often, it’s vice-versa, with a not so common Russian word coming out as a proper name. Translate helps me learn Russian. It’s not a crutch for a beginner like me.
The whole on-line world is at your fingertips, even Chinese and other exotic languages are on Yandex. MOre useful is the Yandex translation service for entire web pages. For that, go to translate.yandex.com/
There is no sense in talking to these people. I don’t know why Russia is constantly legitimizing anything “European” by asking for it’s opinion. What would you expect to happen, the formula is “If Russia complains about anything reject it out of hand” or for short Russophobia. It should have been clear to Russia since the 90s (actually since its existence), but ever since Europe designated Soviet Union as the guilty party in WW2 all talk with them should have stopped. This is stupid. Like Serbs expecting anything out of Hagues.
So now what you have:
1) Russia put in its place.
2) The Ukraine received official blessings for their actions, thanks to Russia.
Russia just owned itself again by thinking there is some “law” or “justice” to be sought after in the west. It should know better and the naivety makes me mad. Just do not deal with these people, full stop.
”Russia just owned itself again by thinking there is some ’law’ or ’justice’ to be sought after in the west. It should know better and the naivety makes me mad. Just do not deal with these people, full stop.”
No naivety except maybe on your part. If you read through the comments posted above, you should be aware that there was no grovelling involved. Russia will give the Ukronazis and their foreign sponsors a taste of resounding violence. That’s precisely how the scum should be dealt with.
I wish you are right, I also agree with you that the only way they should be dealt with is strong military action, but I don’t see a resounding Russian military answer. Like the Saker said many times, Russia doesn’t want to start any real wars with the west over Ukraine because it’s not worth it. Basically Russia is just waiting for the state to disintegrate but that’s not happening anytime soon, even a rump Ukraine can go on for a long time and the last thing they’ll give up is their Russophobia.
Really? So, according to the court, cutting off the water supply and prohibiting a minority from using their mother tongue does not pose “serious risk of irreparable harm of a core right under the European Convention on Human Rights.”
Interesting.
But the Russian government did not do enough to safeguard the life of Navalny, so the ECHR ordered the immediate release of Navalny from custody.
Makes sense.