Dear friends,
I had seen the Russian text on the OSCE page, and now Gleb Bazov sent me his translation. To say that I am under-impressed by this text would be an understatement. I would also note that many well informed sources spoke of a 14 points plan. Are two more points held in secret? What is certain is that this documents is imprecise, nebulous, ambiguous and otherwise vague to such a degree that I would argue that it is basically impossible to implement. Knowing the degree to which Russian diplomats are normally maniacally fastidious and pedantic with words, I can only conclude that they have deliberately sabotaged this agreement and that it’s sole use what to deflate the bellicose mood of the NATO summit. But as a basis for a real ceasefire it is useless, nevermind a real negotiation for a final status agreement or peace treaty.
The first rule for any kind of ceasefire is to provide a painstakingly accurate timetime for the implementation of unambiguously defined and verifiable de-escalation measures followed by a precise schedule for confidence building measures subject to mutual verification. There is nothing like that here. Points 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11 mean absolutely nothing, the rest are vague and ambiguous at best. This is one of the worst ceasefire agreements I have ever seen.
Either way, numerous reports seem to indicate that the cease-fire has already been violated in many locations. Some kind of deal will eventually be made, and maybe this symbolic first step is, at best, a way to get the process going. But in itself, this document is useless.
The Saker
PS: I will be gone all day tomorrow. I leave you with an open thread.
——-
on the results of consultations of the Trilateral Contact Group
with respect to the joint steps aimed at
the implementation of the Peace Plan
of the President of Ukraine, P. Poroshenko,
and the initiatives of the President of Russia, V. Putin
Upon consideration and discussion of the proposals put forward by the participants of the consultations in Minsk on September 1, 2014, the Trilateral Contact Group, consisting of the representatives of Ukraine, the Russian Federation and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe [OSCE], reached an understanding with respect to the need to implement the following steps:
- Ensure the immediate bilateral cessation of the use of weapons.
- Ensure monitoring and verification by the OSCE of the regime of non-use of weapons.
- Implement decentralization of power, including by means of enacting the Law of Ukraine “With respect to the temporary status of local self-government in certain areas of the Donetsk and the Lugansk regions” (Law on Special Status).
- Ensure permanent monitoring on the Ukrainian-Russian state border and verification by the OSCE, together with the creation of a security area in the border regions of Ukraine and the Russian Federation.
- Immediately release all hostages and unlawfully detained persons.
- Enact a law prohibiting the prosecution and punishment of persons in connection with the events that took place in certain areas of the Donetsk and the Lugansk regions of Ukraine.
- Conduct an inclusive national dialogue.
- Adopt measures aimed at improving the humanitarian situation in Donbass.
- Ensure the holding of early local elections in accordance with the Law of Ukraine “With respect to the temporary status of local self-government in certain areas of the Donetsk and the Lugansk regions” (Law on Special Status).
- Remove unlawful military formations, military hardware, as well as militants and mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine.
- Adopt a program for the economic revival of Donbass and the recovery of economic activity in the region.
- Provide personal security guarantees for the participants of the consultations.
Participants of the Trilateral Contact Group:
Ambassador Heidi Talyavini (signed)
Second President of Ukraine, L.D. Kuchma (signed)
Ambassador of the Russian Federation in Ukraine, M.Y. Zurabov (signed)
A.V. Zakharchenko (signed)
I.V. Plotnitskiy (signed)
Concur, Saker.
It was to stop NATO’s war dance. It was to create fissures in EU.
It is good for target practice.
Commence the hostilities.
I also think it was a product of the Donetsk oligarch-fifth columnists.
When it goes into the shredder, they are undermined.
And it helps keep Kiev unstable, unfit for big loans, unfit for NATO alliance.
It works on many levels that have nothing to do with the words and meanings on the paper.
Basically, could have been written by a junior high school student studying the Liberal path to peace and other such nonsense.
The latest circus of ceasefire was never meant to be implemented. Kiev is not to be trusted and should never be considered for any type of negotiations until it is totally cleansed from the Zio-Nazi hyenas and their CIA handlers. I’m sure everyone in Russia knows that, hence the absolute uselessness of this ceasefire agreement.
Well, I’m glad I just spent all that listing questions on each item — just in case maybe there might have been some smidge of some something maybe perhaps that might have possibly meant… something?
Mr. Nora is in absolute stitches about this thing; he can’t stop laughing. I don’t think the joke’s on Russia or Novorossiya though… Game’s not over but once again, the hunter turned into the prey. And I don’t think Porky Pig’s sleeping real well nowadays…
Nor should he.
It is not enough to rely on the fallacy of somewhere in the middle of opposing arguments. We all know that in information warfare the truth is often no where in the middle. And most often off in left field. Thus, if we include a third source that is independent of the two narratives, we are better able to get a general bearing and a sense of what is more truthful.
But, how do we know if a third source is not another lie of one of the two opposing arguments? Well, in the way that an azimuth affords us a three dimensional location in the triangulation process. Our third source must be outside of the discipline of the argument’s venue. Move the argument to biology, psychology or in this instance economics.
You have to realize that the news is not a simple process of viewing through the looking glass, where black is white; it is more of a kaleidescope of identical political fractals. Syria, Gaza, ISIS and Ukraine are interconnected and very much part of the empire’s true objective. Like most things in life the micro reveals the nature of the macro.
You begin to ask questions like, why was the Gaza operation launched at the exact time that Western media lost control of the MH17 narrative? And it never emerged again from the rabbit hole. We begin to ask question like, Why did the Novorossian Defense Force agree to a cease-fire just as they were about to take Mariupol and route the army of Kiev?
What I am suggesting is that the “third” sensor in this triangulation process is interdisciplinary. You have to move out of your comfort zone and explore the argument in terms of a discipline you know nothing about. You ask why would anybody do that? Why should I give up a lifetime of experience and processes, that I have mastered to solve a problem in a disciplines I know nothing about? Because it forces your mind to approach the problem in an alien manner. In essence, it develops new pathways in your thinking that often open doors in our existing disciplines we never knew were possible.
Taking Mariupol is a major strategic asset. It holds massive amounts of grain ready for export to other nations, that can be used to feed Novorossia for the winter. Seizing the grain would also further cause economic hardship to the Kiev junta as the income from that grain would not be payed. And this is only one commodity. What about coal, Iron, and the various products it depends upon for income and industry?
Being Ukraine’s major port, loosing Mariupol, would be devastating to Ukraine’s teetering economy. Now we begin to understand why Kolomosky threatened the Samson option to blow up the dam further up the Dnieper river. Everything begins to fall in place. Just the threat of taking Mariupol was enough to bring the Kiev junta to its scenes.
Where will the NDF go next? It depends on Kiev. It is obvious they are looking for ways to get Mariupol back. That is why the cease fire is not holding there. Kiev is testing th NDF. Right now Mariupol is in limbo. However, if Kiev does what it has always done, the crazy option, then Mariupol will likely be destroyed. This is the only reason for the cease fire. And when the greatest strategist thinkers of the empire determine that Mariupol can not be taken in tact, and winter is coming, and our army is in shambles, and, and, … There is a slight chance the peace may hold.
If it does not, where will NDF go next? Where it all began, Sloviansk. Why? To throw Royal Dutch Shell out on it ass. Eventually the IMF will understand its strategy of nation theft and the dismemberment of Russia is going to cost a lot more than it ever envisioned..Eventually the NDF will take Odessa. Why? That is where the gas is processed for export.
Do I know what is going to happen next week? No, no one does. There are too many variables. However, I can not be fooled, no matter how much they twist their narrative or try to keep me scared in order to diminish my ability to think clearly and creatively.
Perhaps the ceasefire was to allow time to get the new Ukrainian elite special forces unit positioned for an optimal attack?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUHk2RSMCS8
вот так
Can Jimmy Carter sign agreements for the United States? Where is the legal authorization by the Kiev junta for Kuchma to sign for them?
Hmmm. Had to read it twice to make sure I didn’t miss anything, not that the nazis had the slightest intention of honoring the ‘agreement’ in the first place. They never stopped their bombardments during and after the conference and had no intention of doing so.
We all know what OSCE is worth and whose side they are on. Of interest is their little group down in Mariupol stating this morning that they heard artillery in the distance but ‘didn’t know who was shooting’. Well, here’s a novel thought: get your fat ass off the bar stool in Mariupol hotel and go take a look!
Neither side believed in this cease fire, but both wanted to for their own reasons.
They each signed it without the intention of adhering to it, therefore it didn’t really matter what the document described.
Oh dear heavens. Mr. Nora’s still laughing his head off and me, I’ve got to say that while my all-time favorite international agreement remains the Kellogg-Briand Peace Pact of 1928 (giggle) which, um, outlawed war, this thing clearly comes in second.
Really, what else can you say? ;~)
1. This document was signed between a former Ukraine president with actual no legal authority and the representatives of the Donbass rebels with two ambassadors as witness. Poroshenco didn’t sign the document neither other Ukraine central authority, therefore they are obliged to nothing. All the political weight of the document (whatever it say) is over the shoulders of Zakharchenko and Plotnitskiy who signed the document, therefore they are obliged to everything that the document said.
2. There is not mention of the LPR, DPR or Novorossiya, neither who Zakharchenko and Plotnitskiy are representing (the dynamo of Kiev?).
3. The Saker said “Knowing the degree to which Russian diplomats are normally maniacally fastidious and pedantic with words” This is not a problem between Russia and Ukraine, is an Ukraine internal problem, is a civil war between the peoples of Donbass in rebellion supported by international freedom fighters against an illegal government of oligarchs supported by fascist gangs and international organizations (NATO, EU, UN) who overthrow the last Ukraine president and seized the power.
4. The point that said “Remove unlawful military formations, military hardware, as well as militants and mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine” that means surrender of the militias (for the document the National Guard is so constitutional as Poroshenko) and expulsion of the international volunteers that are fighting for the Donbass people from Ukraine.
This document is very dangerous, when this document arrives to the Novorossiya militias, especially the international fighters probably will start a demoralization of this very brave people.
To be honest, what the hell is that? it is basically a defeat for the whole New Russia cause, i hope this bullshit stop soon.
What ceasefire?
Baboo here, Chatter on recent ZH thread;
http://vk.com/soutukraine?z=video-66621324_169639656%2Fbd0b76f17d1612ba60
“The only question at this point is how long before Russia opens the second front from Moldova… latest news I had from the pro-Russian seperatist province of Moldova was that the conscription was called… and the medias were being told to prep the population for war on Ukraine in late august/early september… so….”
Some folks, including Vineyard, seem to see clever thinking behind some of the maneuvers from Russia. Others see the cunning plan of Yanukovich. Maybe a lot of what is going on is just temporizing, so, for example, this ceasefire could simply have been “nothing” to make it harder for NATO to scream or to give some oligarchs more time to talk.
The drawback with some maneuvers, though, is your own side’s supporters largely need to support what you are up to. At minimum, they need to be told privately and let it spread by word of mouth. Of course, it is a trade-off, as the other side’s problems may be worsened as well.
#6 “Enact a law prohibiting the prosecution and punishment of persons in connection with the events that took place in certain areas of the Donetsk and the Lugansk regions of Ukraine” . . . . Fuck – thats a get-outa-jail-free card for the Azov/ punitive scum if I ever saw one!!
Yep – You are dead right sAker – this isn’t worth the paper it’s written on
Remember the Russian winter offensive of 1941-42?
I’m not sure why but I have this impulse to say:
First they ignore Putin;
Then they laugh at him;
Then they fight him;
Then he wins.
__Blue
I think that there is a secret pact between Putin and Poroshenko.
The ceasefire agreement “has been made to be broken” and my instinct says that the idea is to help justify a calm down in the western’s media and politics BUT, more importantly, that NAF execute the remaining extremist’s batallions!
My two “pesos”.
Cheers from Chile.
After familiarizing myself with 12points of the Minsk protocols, I am certain that it looks, smells and feels like a soft surrender. People of Novorossiya who witnessed all of the death and destruction at close distance would be excused for calling it TREASON.
It’s still too early to brand Putin a traitor, but he without a doubt endorsed this garbage, since Russian Ambassador in Ukraine signed it as well.
Many unanswered questions at this point. We of course know nothing about all of the conversations going on in private.
However, if what we see is what we get, and events keep unfolding in this direction, Putin will soon envy Hollande’s approval rating. He is playing with real fire. If both Americans and Russian patriots want him crucified, he’ll have nowhere to run.
I’m not too interested in the content of the Ceasefire Protocol signed in Minsk.
I’m plumbing the legal structure of such a Protocol instrument.
Under UN Legal Definition a protocol is similar to a treaty. It can carry the weight of treaty. It is from the work of treaty writing and signing and enforcing.
It usually follows, adds or refines an existing treaty.
But in this case it precedes a treaty.
Now, Treaties are very important documents. They are discussed and approved by each nation signing them. They are made between or among nations, not lesser entities.
So, let’s look at the signees to this document that purports it is a document of truce, a protocol between two equal parties.
Russia would not use an ambassador to sign a treaty or protocol to a treaty. A foreign minister or the head of state would be the signee.
Ukraine is not representative by anyone with power from its Duma or President or Prime Minister.
And the OSCE is a capon, party to nothing.
The two militia/Novorossiya signees have no title, and don’t indicate they sign for any entity.
You or I could have signed it just as well as these two.
So, you have a Protocol that purports some International legal binding intentions. However, it does not rise to the legal level needed to be recognized as Treaty or Protocol to a Treaty.
In fact, officially, Russian refuses to recognize the junta as legitimate. They deal with the junta, but they have not truly recognized them and constantly complain the junta is illegitimate.
So, this is like signing a MOU. That memorandum of understanding has no legal binding to it.
It is not an agreement which is another name in law for contract.
MOU is worth the paper it is written on.
This is of the same worth.
If the Protocols are written on soft paper, they can send it to the troops for toilet paper.
Protocol
A protocol has similar legal characteristics as a treaty. However, protocol is an agreement of a less formal nature than a treaty or convention. Generally, a protocol amends, supplements or clarifies a multilateral treaty. A protocol may be on any topic relevant to the original treaty and is used either to further address something in the original or parent treaty, or to address a new concern. A protocol is also used to add a procedure for the operation and enforcement of the treaty. A protocol is ‘optional’ because it is not automatically binding on States that have already ratified the original treaty and in order to be binding, the states must independently ratify a protocol.
In the legal sense, it is defined as an international agreement that supplements or amends a treaty.
http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/P/Protocol.aspx
Protocol Legal Definition:
International agreements of a less formal nature than a treaty and which amends, supplements or clarifies a treaty.
http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/T/Treaty.aspx
Treaty Legal Definition:
A formal agreement between two states signed by official representatives of each state.
I’m not an international lawyer, not a lawyer of any kind. But I know what words mean and how documents need to be scrutinized.
The entire dance in Minsk was for other reasons and the Protocols is but a souvenir of the event.
Don’t sweat it. The war will carry on.
Protocol, my ass, as Solon would have said in Greek.
Wasn’t the Russian plan a framework for a deal to be negotiated between Novorussia and Ukraine? They’ve been very clear that they are not a party to the agreement.
As for the strategy, my mind keeps going to all those angry, even furious Ukrainian soldiers, Regular Army, conscripts, fascist thugs, storm troopers and corporate mercenaries descending on Western Ukraine, ten times more confused than any of us on this thread. It’s going to be mayhem!
A Humpty-Dumpty moment!
8-)
Interesting Report from the Russian Union of Engineers on MH17. Seems increasingly unlikely that a Buk was responsible as far as I can tell using google translate
http://www.mirumir.com.ua/2014/08/31/rossijskij-soyuz-inzhenerov-rekonstrukciya-ataki-na-boing/
looks like a cease fire in name only. Voice of Sevastopol (voicesevas.ru) reports lots of fighting still going on. One fighter commented: “I would like to say thank you for the wonderful Ukrainian military homemade pickles and grenades they have left us!”
Not sure if the additional points were added in when the agreement was signed by Poroshenko.
But I agree it is not very prescriptive and there is no assurance or timeline for its implementation.
Still it is only worth the paper it is written on if the ceasefire is agreed to.
Much depends on the activities of the lunatic Oleh Lyashko and his ilk
If it stops the killing and destruction it has my support
Mind you this whole war and conflict would not have happened if Ukraine and the International Community enforced the February 21 Agreement which called for constitutional change and fresh elections to be held in October.
If they could not enforce that what guarantees are there that this one will be enforced.
Lyashko is one to watch., He should be arrested and put in prison not in Parliament
I think the most important part of the agreement is the humanitarian corridor. Look at how the situation has changed after Russia decided to go it alone with the humanitarian convoy. Support the civilian population is the most needed moral boost for Novorossians.
Now that it’s in the agreement, it will be much harder for Kiev to oppose future convoys.
Also, the agreement serves as a monkey wrench on the heads of the Kiev gang; they will accuse each other of “treason” etc….
And it serves as a pretext for whichever EU country wants to use as fig leaf to backpedal on the “sanctions”
Chilling interview with Arseniy Avakov, one of the architects of the Odessa mass murder and quite probably (if the alleged Spanish air traffic controller ‘Juan’ was a legit source) was behind the false flag shootdown of MH17 and perhaps was a co-conspirator with Andre Parubiy in the Maidan ‘heavenly hundred’ false flag ‘Yanukovich’ sniper shootings. I imagine these are the type of answers one would receive from a Heydrich or a Himmler cerca January 1942 regarding the Final Solution and GeneralPlan Ost which was still perceived as having suffered only a temporary setback at the Battle of Moscow and with the United States entry into World War II.
http://vladimirsuchan.blogspot.com/2014/09/in-avakovs-eyes-killing-people-small.html?spref=tw
Last but not least early this morning the New York Times has finally woken up to an issue I’ve harped on for a while, the Qatari lobby buying up think tanks in Washington, specifically the Brookings Institute ‘Doha Center’ with its frontman Michael Doran and this general phenomenon of non-Gentile Americans selling out completely to this GCC/Israel axis, creating an astroturfed ‘media’ and de facto Foreign Agents Registration Act-evading lobby for the emirate of Qatar, Saudi Arabia and other parties that have been pushing for Assad’s removal. The fact that the Assad removal crowd almost perfectly overlaps with the Ukraine and anti-Russian lobbies led by neoocon hacks like Michael D. Weiss the editor of the allegedly Khodorkovsky funded Interpreter Mag should not surprise anyone who reads the Saker. But the Qatari embassy basically has a satellite corporate office that is a registered foreign agent only a few blocks away from the Interpreter’s offices in Manhattan. Furthermore Weiss and his cohort James Miller who also has been an advocate for regime change in Syria are currently junketing in Kiev, exactly at the same time as Sen. McInsane. Did they all meet up to plot strategy and how to spin a war against Novorossiya that is taking much longer than planned? How about the whole Wolsangel Nazi symbolism of the Azov Battalion issue, which the crankish former translator of Soviet dissidents Catherine A. Fitzpatrick has taken up in earnest with a rationalization hamster from hell? And finally, most critically, who is paying for these multi-thousand dollar junkets to Kiev at this time when the Institute of Modern Russia, The Interpreter’s umbrella organization, only lists disbursements on its 2012 GuideStar report that would barely pay Weiss’ and Miller’s salaries, much less those of Weiss, Miller, Fitzpatrick, and numerous other individuals? I think it may be time for the Kulak’s first Saker guest post on this topic, if our esteemed host will permit it.
The Saker gets mentioned here: http://www.unz.com/mwhitney/did-putin-just-bring-peace-to-ukraine/
The Saker needs to meet the neocons. The US adventure in the Ukraine is a neocon enterprise. The Bolsheviks included Galacia in the Ukraine so the people wouldn’t get along. And after all these years Trotsky’s ghost has stirred the pot. Meet the neocons: http://takimag.com/article/kristol_strikes_again_james_miller
Quite funny, at Russia TV (Russia24), then even made remarks on grammatical errors in the Russian text!
Indeed a fuck you to Kriegs-Fuherer Anders Faggot Ratmussen and the the other NATO clowns.
But what´s in it for porky and the Nazi regime? Why would they agree to humiliate them? Because their hopless situation on the front? chance to regroup?
Mikhas
Youi may think this a little OT, but bear with me. On September 18th the Scottish Referendum takes place and according to today’s polls it could well be a ‘Yes’ for Scottish independence. Bang goes the concept of th ‘UK’ if it is, as a messy divorce wil be in prospect and don’t expect the Scots to go in for foreign adventures, defence yes, but bullying other small nations, emphatically No. This will alter the UK dynamic somewhat and if they do vote yes expect Cameron and the Bullingdon Boys to be dethroned in a Tory putsch according to the Sunday Times. The timing is sublime, and as a resident in England’s oldest and last colony (I’ll leave you to work that out) I watch the hubris with great interest and no little amusement. I have no doubt that VVP being a shrewd player will have somebody detailed to keep an eye on this as it has implications within NATO for one, and also the EU. Scotland may yet end up using the Ruble and the Yuan as well as other currencies. It’s not as if they don’t know about banking. This could have significance regarding the Ukraine. A standard poodle is no good if it has been gelded….
My understanding was that this was never a 14 point plan. The NY Times announced 14 points two days ago but they were referring to something poroshenko announced well before the ceasefire agreement from Minsk on late Thursday. This confusion was based on a tweet from Poroshenko’s office that was made a few hours after the Minsk agreement was announced. The very first reports talked about a 12 point plan.
Keeping everything very vague is not a bad idea. There are too many people that want to sabotage this ceasefire in the first place so a little creative ambiguity is not a bad approach to get the ceasefire underway in the first place.
Hired guns to leave and monitored by osce.
Now that is going to make some unhappy campers.
I don’t understand Putin and I don’t trust him. Russia has pressed hard to get the Novorrusian sign in this piece of crap when NAF was wiping out the Nazis from the battlefield. WTF? Some vagueries about future laws and nothing else!
I hate to tell everyone that I told you so.
1. No mention of Crimea. Crimea was given to Putin on a Silver Platter on Day One.
2. From Day One Putin wanted a Unified Ukraine but De-Centralized Ukraine. We are getting there.
3. As I have been saying that Putin is being rewarded by the Empire for saving the Empire.
4. For those War-Mongers you cannot see and hope for a Greater Good.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
I hate to tell everyone that I told you so.
1. No mention of Crimea. Crimea was given to Putin on a Silver Platter on Day One.
2. From Day One Putin wanted a Unified Ukraine but De-Centralized Ukraine. We are getting there.
3. As I have been saying that Putin is being rewarded by the Empire for saving the Empire.
4. For those War-Mongers you cannot see and hope for a Greater Good.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Russia is not the only stakeholder here and thus assuming any perceived shortcomings in a document and agreement between the rebels and junta is fallacious.
Yes, the document is flawed, as an amateur I can see it is bloody useless. The chances are that it reflects a lack of commitment to the endeavor from those most affected. Both parties, in effect, saying, ‘yeah, OK, whatever you want because we all know there’s not gonna be a ceasefire’.
Russia will, of course, be framed as the villains again, notwithstanding the difference between the agreement here and the framework suggested by the RF a few days ago. Not even accounting for the reality that even this faulty agreement would not have been possible without the personal intervention of V.V Putin.
I do not think that the agreement was any kind of cover for a Ukrainian regrouping because the ceasefire did not last long enough for them to gain any real benefit.
But yes, one thing I am sure is true, the timing of the push for a ceasefire was not coincidental but that does not mean that the intent from the Russian side was not genuine. I also think that Poroshenko may have been trying to kick back against his owners and controllers, sadly, with no more success than his previous efforts.
The agreement is merely political and not operational. Because of the presumed “institutional” decision making in Kiev, these points must translate into specific laws which must likely will not be enacted given the composition of the ultra right forces in the current political structure. The real masters of the Kiev’s authorities will not agree to these points because that implies a cohesive approach to solving the civil war. There is nothing cohesive in Kiev. Under this agreement, the oligarchs are left out or are put at each others throats. There is nothing clear about the political, economic and security independence of Lugansk and Donetsk. Actions on the ground will be the real response to the agreement points. General Winter is approaching and the population in Ukraine knows him well.
@Everybody,
Let us just not to focus on Ukraine only. Ukraine is not World. Look at both Obama and Putin, throughout the World, how they are cooperating with each other, rather than confronting each other.
Even in Afghanistan, the NATO corridor provided by Putin and they both working on Iran.
Isn’t cooperation better than confrontation?
Isn’t cooperation better than blind competition?
This is what the East has to offer the West.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
I think that the 13th and 14th points dealt with motherhood and apple pie, respectively.
Read what it actually says in the introduction:
It’s just a protocol. A result of consultations, an understanding. Held by the trilateral group of representatives of UA, RF, OSCE. Nowhere does it say that representatives of Novorussia (or DNR/LNR, or rebels, or separatists etc) influenced this document.
Afaik Zakharchenko and Plotnitskiy are NOT representatives of Ukraine, or members of the trilateral group. There is even a space between their and the other three’s signatures. In other words, they are just witnesses to the proceedings. Look how even Kutchma, who has no official position, is introduced as “Ukraine’s second president” in the signatures. But Zakharchenko and Plotniskiy aren’t introduced by anything, it’s as if they are just tourists.
I don’t see how this document has any binding force.
Anyone familiar with the ex Yugoslav conflict will know that Western ceasefire agreements are only temporary re-armament agreements.
The fascists were on the verge of collapse and this will only serve to help them reconsider strategies with their NATO advisers.
Obviously Mariupol is holding some serious CIA assets and need some breathing space before they high tail out of there.
There never was a cease fire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QWU0BhaGrw&list=PL5WdALk2_ZNRTN8uFY-adsDaQ2XeRKJgV
Several things seem amiss with ‘Vineyard of the Saker’
For one thing, Saker claims to be a male … but the writing is clearly that of a female mentality. If one knows well the voices of women and how women write, Saker’s words & emotions are extremely female. Some men do have female emotional make-up, so somewhat possible Saker is male … but Saker’s writing is feminine through-and-through.
Saker operates out of Florida not far from international headquarters for CIA-Wikipedia, the ultimate CIA ‘perception management’ hoaxing Trojan Horse used to insert CIA lies … and there is grounds for arguing that Saker is a CIA ‘perception manager’ as well … cleverly helping push the line that Putin is somewhat ok instead of Henry Kissinger’s and Israel’s friend, and ‘New World Order’ fake opposition helping ruin countries. Saker hosts on CIA-Google, tracking all commenters directly for NSA-CIA; Saker promotes CIA-Wikimedia at top of her site.
Saker is obviously aware of much detail about Novorossiya, but readers too-eager for media ‘heroes’ don’t seem to notice Saker is now actually quite sparse and casual on linking to significant developments from there, better picked up from other sites, Colonel Cassad and others … Saker now seems more about herding the anti-Nato crowd into a funnel, which she(he) can do because Saker has huge comment following and readership, because…
Saker has been heavily promoted by major CIA neo-con infested, also semi-‘alternative’ news site, Asia Times Online, which has carried some good stuff ‘mixing truth with lies’ in classic CIA style … but highlights people like the pro-genocidal Zionist David Goldman aka Spengler & CIA’s ‘Radio Free Europe’. Asia Times is run by Anglo-Americans in Hong Kong following a USA gov holiday calendar (!). Yes, Asia Times still runs anti-globalist Pepe Escobar … but Pepe is another guy so far blind to the New World Order aspects of Putin and BRICS, taking the ‘anti-Nato’ surface for what it seems.
It seems that the above document is a thorough and reliable translation of the genuine agreement signed two days ago in Minsk .
Russian is mostly Greek to me ( I’m joking, being a Greek ) so I trust your post and translation of GB.
I agree with the first comment that the document is almost childish and vague in spite of the tragedy that it is supposed to stop , even temporarily.
Some points on the 12 clauses :
1. Reasonable but lacking a definite start time and duration . Probable cause : neither part was ready to confirm the implementation and the endurance of the ceasefire
2. As I can understand the presence of OSCE monitor teams in the region consists of a few men , so until those teams are significantly reinforced the observation of the ceasefire and the subsequent press releases are left to the two opponents’ “good will” to materialize. Remembering the past ( for example, the outcome of the still missing OSCE reports from Ossetia and Abhazia of 2008 ) anyone can understand the futility of this clause.
3. Underlining the “certain areas of” I leave this clause to the “good will” of the Ukie Rada ( recently dismissed ) and the ones who hold the real power behind those puppets ( Zionists , oligarchs , Pravy Sector etc ) They thought , at the time , that they could easily submit the south east and the “Law” was never enacted = applied and I humbly suggest that it is now too late for such shit to be a provision of an agreement.
4. This is a wishful clause but on the other hand a very dangerous provision for NR. Ignoring the fact that more than 200 km of the U-R border are now left to the control of the “terrorists” and escaping from the reality of the objective inability of OSCE monitoring , the reestablishment of Ukie front guards in the border checkpoints is no less than a tragicomedy.
5. Who are the “hostages” and the “unlawfully detained” ?????. Some hours before the agreement the entire international community ( my ass ) supported a sovereign Banderastan being attacked by the ugly bear… It is the same language used by Esthonian Waffen for their operative being “abducted” two days ago . I undestand that the Ukies cannot put their signature under a document accepting the term of civil WAR but on the other hand no terms like “terrorists” are used. I see some progress here. Who is the authority to oversee, guarantee and verify the exchange ? Probably a ghost…!
6. Certain acts in certain regions once again. Some questions here: a) This law could prove stronger than International Law ( and prosecution ) about War Crimes etc . HRW testimonies are blatant. b) They sincerely expect to pass such a law by the next to be Rada c) what kind of events are included in this shit ?
I understand that this clause has been agreed onv between “Asians”, under the auspices of an impotent OSCE but it still means nothing to me and most importantly to the NR population.
7. Anecdodal clause of the day , attempting to save Porky’s political stand
Cont’d…
8. Is this including bombing or sapping infrastructures or does the only hope for the NR population lie in the “white tracks” ?
9. Same as 3 … Another attempt to save Porky’s posture and future. Can this shit be applied and supervised correctly on these “certain areas” under current conditions ?
10.This clause hides two important issues : a) there is not a word about the continuous trumpeting of a “russian invasion” , but a straitghtforward confession of the presence of mercenaries instead . That is surprising progress…! b) There is only a polite insinuation about voyentrog .
Keep in mind that most of the “unlawful” formations of the Ukie side have already been pulverised , so Motorolyi etc are bound to be dissolved… ( if this clause is applied in fact, I wonder who will resist in the upcoming next escalation )
11. Here in Greece – Bankistan we have only experienced economic warfare against the low and middle class and we still expect to see the Promised Land of “growth” . Donbass suffered a real war and is not supposed to expect anything of the unsolvent Ukie State , the oligarchs or the West unless they are ready to adopt a newfungled slavery status . Shit clause aswell…
12. Utility clause present in any such document.
As a whole the agreement seems to me a provisional one, that gives time to both sides to regroup and evaluate their options . A lifeline for Porky and associates Ltd , wisely offered by the Russian and rebel side until the inevitable occurs . Most of all it is a sigh of relief for the poor people of NR to whom I hereby send my respect , my sorrow and my support.
The same Greek Supporter of the other day – post
Donetsk airport still not re taken which is being held by these guys.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqqYh7Cl18.
Ukrainian troops regrouping and getting ready for a further assault
Kuchma??
Kuchma represents the Junta now?
I can’t get my head around that.
Surely if the actual leaders of the separatists are present and signing, someone a bit closer to the actual leadership of the Junta ought to be there. Even if Poroshenko himself refused to meet.
So with this ceaseifire it means, no retret, no surrender, reinforcements, converting merc forces into military units and then go on a killing spree?
I dont see a single thing that will help Novorossia. Since the ukies kill most all militia members when caught they sure did not keep any Russians at all. So there arent too many to exchange there. They even seem to go Chechen on the citizens when they get a chance. Except Putin used this to blunt the Nato response at the expense of Novorossia what does it bring? Choco says he will talk, bring aid and make changes when he feels like it. Basically it is the same ole drop the weapons and surrender so we can rush you into the crematoriums and what are 3 mobile ones doing there anyway?
Down with capitalism and oligarchy!
Up with the Underground Red Army of the New Soviet Ukraine!
All support to Novorussia, Strelkov and Gubarev!
– from Nazi-occupied Amerika
@EVERYBODY: Normally I would send the kind of nonsense posted by “Suspicious-of-Saker” to /dev/null, but this one is so funny that I decided to post it. It also suspects me of being a female, which I consider very flattering – so it’s another reason to let it through. Anyway, if any of you missed it, please do read the priceless comment above posted by “Suspicious-of-Saker”.
I will be gone all day, back in the evening, God willing.
Cheers,
The Saker
@Saker Re: Suspicion-of-Saker
Regarding that reader’s suspicion that you write like like a woman, well, you often do, and that can be construed as a compliment, because women tend to have an edge in communications abilities over their male counterparts. I often prefer reading novels by female authors because the style tends to be more descriptive, emotional and detailed with excellent flow (often done so well that you actually feel like you’re in the place being described).
I’m glad you posted that individual’s views, perhaps the emotional swings in your different postings adds to the impression conveyed by the poster. So what? Now if he/she had accused you of being a cross-dressing bi-trans-up-down-left-right gender confused individual with hysterical atheist and messianic tendencies… then you might take umbrage. ;-)
I am beginning to see a pattern.
1. New leaders with clean hands surprisingly installed in Novorossiya. Men with whom Kiev can more easily talk. At least one of them is a lawyer and that is important.
2. Rapid NAF offensive to make Kiev willing to talk. It worked.
A very clear and peaceful signal from both Russia and Novorossiya was sent. Was it a plan? NATO does not listen, but others do. The world watches.
The NATO/EU/US answered the peaceplan with more possible sanctions and Kiev has already broken the ceasefire. The Empire doesn’t care if it looks ridiculous, but the rest of the world takes notice.
If the agreement is broken and the war starts again, are the gloves off? It is much easier for Russia to intervene openly this time with all that means. Also, if the new sanctions are implemented, Russia will respond with unexpected countersanctions. There is a limit to Putins patience.
We will soon know.
From the last thread
From the last thread incl text this time :)
Espina said…
Nora said @ 07 September, 2014 01:28
Well spotted Nora and according to Prof John Curtis there should probably be around 5% points added to the Yes campaigns numbers, as basically the YOUGOV and other polls are rigged in favour of the Anglo Zionist status quo, I personally believe the YES numbers are even higher. Whilst the Yes vote is made up of all kinds of people from all social classes and backgrounds, the vast majority are the many indigenous poor people who having given up on ever believing that anything would ever change due to voting in an election, the Neo Liberals thought they had us in the bag, permanently! People realise that they can actually change things for the betterment of all in Scotland….. http://radicalindependence.org/ We’ll no be havin any AZ types running anything up here shortly :) Trident will be gone from the Holy Loch asap and oul Lizzie can tak a hike an aw. I live in hope that the NAF prevail in taking Novorossiya aye and maybe the rest of Ukraine too, thereby creating a pole in eastern europe, The Eurasian Union, that neighbouring countries might see as a better alternative than the western european model. We in Scotland will be doing our bit on the atlantic side leading eventually to a trade and security bloc not from Lisbon to Vladivostok but from Árainn Mhór Island off the west coast of Donegal to Vladivostok. May the force be with us all….. Slan to a better world.
07 September, 2014 09:03
This means that the NAF will disband, it means Donbass will stay in Ukraine, it means that the NAF leaders will not be arrested. And it means that the current leadership of Novorussia is 100% puppets of Putin and it means the Putin-haters, and Putin-Bashers were 100% right.
Novorussia will not be, the revolution was betrayed.
Many do not seem to understand what the “ceasefire” says.
It says the Militas will be disarmed.
And is says Donbass will remain inside Ukraine.
And it says the rebels will not be arrested.
It is over. It is not a ceasefire it is a surrender. Whatever Putin wanted, he got, and he is calling off the conflict. Maybe he got some money from an oligarch.. maybe it is part of some long-term plan.. Either way, Novorussia is 100% dead, the war is over, the Novorussians surrendered to the oligarchy and are now forever part of Ukraine.
Read it from the oligarchy perspective.
“Donbas will receive a ceasefire, humanitarian assistance, an internal Ukrainian political dialogue and special status for Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts within Ukraine. “
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/09/07/kyiv-agrees-to-give-special-status-to-donbas/
The timing was crucial as it reduced dramatically the chance of all of NATO (whilst all together in one place) agreeing to intervene in a much bigger way in Ukraine. It is probable that when faced, in private, with what was actually going on rather than the press tales, as well as the ceasefire, it put paid to a lot of hawkish demands.
I very much doubt that there would have been a ceasefire without that NATO meeting and it also flushed out that in reality NATO was not actually prepared to do that much to help. In my mind it was a Putin masterstroke. Russia may get hit with more sanctions this week but it appears to be prepared to take that and respond, probably cunningly like last time.
It is clear from the Minsk discussions that the only way that Mr P will enter real negotiations is when he is facing a proper military defeat.
Whilst all is quiet I would lay good money that all over the area both sides are repositioning their forces ready for the final phase. Given the way that the ‘Border Army Surplus’ store has been operating over the past couple of weeks (with their special ‘comes with operator’ Autumn offer) it looks like the Russians have now judged what NATO will do (not a lot) and are upping the anti. They know now that they are being treated as a wolf tho’ they have been a sheep, so why not be a wolf. Only a provable invasion or air assets can increase the Western reaction now as they have claimed just about everything else so it would not be new.
JohninMK
I fully agree with the view that the document if useless if the intent was to lead to a true, lasting ceasefire. I am sure Russia knows the Ukrainian regime would not abide by any ceasefire. The Pravi Sektor murderers would ensure it did not last, as their supporters have announced prior to the signing of the document. I am also sure that Russia was aware on Obama’s actions at the NATO conference, namely more sanctions against Russia irrespective of any ceasefire. So why would Russia give anything away (e.g. weakening the NAF) when it is going to be punished anyway?
I think this will simply allow the NAF to consolidate there recent gains, finish the cauldrons and take back the last airport. Then with winter the front lines freeze but Putin can fly NAF troops to Abkhazia and train them their ready for round two in spring.
suspicious of “suspicious of Saker”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2jgrGtiYHE
XbNB
Mohamed that kif is too strong for you
Barn Owl 07 September, 2014 07:21
I believe the same, we’re gonna shake the whole gig up. http://radicalindependence.org/2014/08/19/radical-independence-campaign-18k-canvass-sample-released/ Slan
Seems they have bought out the BIG GUNS since Nato turned flaccid..
Amnesty International now gone Jane international says Mounting evidence of war crimes and Russian involvement..
artillery position can be seen in a field northeast of the first, also within Ukrainian territory. Imagery from 26 August 2014 shows six relatively advanced self-propelled howitzers (likely 2S19 Msta-S 152-mm) in firing positions facing southwest at Ukrainian army locations.
Between 26 and 29 August 2014 the artillery has been moved into a west facing firing position still within Ukraine. On August 29 the imagery shows what look like numerous military vehicles in the area along the tree line and in the neighboring field.
“These satellite images, coupled with reports of Russian troops captured inside Ukraine and eyewitness accounts of Russian troops and military vehicles rolling across the border, leave no doubt that this is now an international armed conflict,” said Shetty.
For some really good xbox screen caps see…
http://novorossia.today/publications/world/novorossiya-support/ukraine-mounting-evidence-of-war-crimes-.html
To get back to reality?!
No-one has cracked it til now,haha.
VvP has only one real disadvantage with the Empire,and Im NOT with,S_O_S,and that is propaganga,Freudian slip Mohamed,propaganda. The Empire has that covered I think you agree.So,VvP signs the nonsense doc with ambassador whoever,as it is plainly just bullshit from 1 to 12,14,54.So now Emp cant use the he refused,hes the aggressor ad nauseum
,and we just carry on to Kiev.Hup two three.
XbNB
Read the agreement here for the first time. Saker’s evaluation is absolutely correct. Looks like someone on, say, a train made a few notes to remind himself of what he wanted to talk about on the back of his ticket. If something were to come from this they better all get back together and start talking in earnest (Trying to be optimistic).
VVP is again seen, by the entire world, as someone who is striving for peaceful resolution of this conflict. And is seen as flexible and accommodating, by allowing modifications by all sides. And his timing is superb. It does not matter what will happen to this protocol, as he has already moved to a new move/initiative , likely based on plan’s failure. Don’t think west has ever had such an opponent. Stalin was not nearly as subtle.
Regards, Spiral
Based on this earlier answer, the question might be “Doesn’t his ceasefire lead to lots of political infighting inside Novorossiya?”
Q: What do you consider the biggest danger for Novorussia right now?
A: Political infighting. I don’t know if this is possible right now, but I would like to see the emergence of an undisputed Novorussian leader who would have the official and full support of Strelkov, Zakharchenko, Borodai, Mozgovoi, Kononov, Khodakovski, Tsarev, Bolotov, Gubarev and all the other political and military leaders. This has to be a truly Novorussian leader, not just a “Putin proconsul”, a person capable of negotiating with Putin for the interests of the people of Novorussia. I don’t mean to suggest that these negotiations cannot be friendly, if only because there can be no Novorussia against Russia, but this leader needs to represent the interests of the Novorussian people, and not the Russian people whose interests are (very well) represented by Putin himself. Right now, the main reason why Putin has so much power in Novorussia is primarily because there is still no real Novorussian political leadership. There is a Novorussian military leadership, and even they probably have to more or less do what the Russian military tells them to do. Far from being weakened by the emergence of such a truly independent and truly Novorussian leader, I think that the Russian-Novorussian alliance would be greatly strengthened by it. Novorussia should not, and cannot, be micro-managed from the Kremlin.
Saker:
I believe that the “suspect-of-Saker” does not know that Pepe Escobar is a Brazilian journalist Kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk! I’m his fan!
I also found it very funny guy call you Kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk CIA agent!
Big hug and good Sunday, recommendations to the family.
:-)
Anonymous at 07 September, 2014 05:07 (I wish people wd give themselves names!)
Can you dump your Google translations on here…even if they’re rough as, it would be v int to read them.
Peace (!)
850 is a tad bit less than 40k KIA/MIA
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/748485
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/748482
How is this allowed by NATO “rules”
What does this do to the rebels? More US trophies to be added to the arsenal?
If the bogus ceasefire causes major reverses to the NAF, how can you not blame Putin?
How can they trust a coup of Neo Nazi/ oligarchs in the first place. Putin isn’t stupid but he is selling out the NAF
Seems obvious that Putin does not want Novorossiyan outright victory
I fully expect the Tuesday MH17 to be full of lies blaming the NAF
http://rt.com/business/185264-russia-bans-confectionary-ukraine/
Is Roshen bankrupted by being cut out of the Russian market?
The Cease-fire that was not: Ruse Exposed.
We now read the document that “Ensures.” Is that the thingy drink that competes with Boost?
I am disappointed with Donetsk PM/(Attorney-at-law) Mr. Alexander Zakharchenko but, I guess, he had no choice but to save face and sign. Mr. Kuchma most likely said, at every proposal, “I have to consult…with Porky and Yatz” So what we got was a non-committal, bland Protocol-everyone-face-save doc. It was a Porky ruse…flushed t-paper
So where are we?….Is there a coup in the brew?
Imagine how the tables have turned! If The CFR-Foreign Policy mag went there …their reporter met with Ukie fighters:
Ukrainian soldiers turn on Kiev—threaten regime change ..”we will close the border and then go to Kiev”
Ukrainian troops encircled outside Ilovaisk want to change Kiev government – US media
World September 07, 11:21 UTC+4
“The army didn’t come to help us we were in the corridor for two days and they didn’t come to help us, and that’s the worst part”, said a fighter from the Donbass volunteer battalion.
WASHINGTON, September 07,/ITAR-TASS/. Fighters of Ukrainian volunteer battalions that were encircled outside the city of Ilovaisk in late August are accusing the Kiev government of not supporting them and threaten to change the regime, Foreign Policy magazine said in an article published on its website on Saturday. The magazine correspondent met some of the fighters.
= = = =
NATO members Military Aid for Ukraine is revealed”
Agreements were reached at the NATO summit on Western military advisers and the delivery of modern weapons from the United States, France, Italy, Poland and Norway, Yuri Lutsenko said
France? not surprised. Mistral ships cancelled?
Note the modern weapons are “precision-guided” ..linked in a comment I made on previous thread yesterday: “Porky refuses to name countries offered to deliver precision-guided weapons.”
Cue up: Reopening of the surplus weapons store Phase ll will need some Islanders
= = = = =
Donetsk Airport now empty
via Reuters ITV reports
“Rebels told Reuters the airport itself was now empty and that the fighting was centred on a nearby military compound.”
~ ~ ~ ~
after Mariupol the war continues to Odessa. Ukraine is where NATO and the USD went to die.
AM
PMC ready
Media reports that President Putin and Poroshenko expressed mutual satisfaction with the fact that the parties to the conflict in the east of Ukraine “as a whole” respect the truce.
My sources say that the staff of American private military companies in Ukraine are ready, and prepare to move ahead
Are they going to break the ceasefire agreement, or ready to act immediately after its termination, is still unknown. Will continue to monitor.
September 7, 2014 – 00:20
Website PRAVOSUDIYA.NET: http://pravosudija.net/article/chvk-privedeny-v-gotovnost
N-V
http://rt.com/business/185264-russia-bans-confectionary-ukraine/
Is Roshen bankrupted by being cut out of the Russian market?
http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/84489.html
Read this and tell me how this in any way benefits the NAF?
Did Putin threaten them to sign? NATO will make up the Uki losses in materiel and strategy.
The bombing never stopped bc Pol Pot Shenko has lost control, he won’t be in charge before their next sham elections
Will he be arrested or murdered in the coup is the only drama to unfold
Dead man walking