[this analysis was written for the Unz Review]
When Zelenskii came to power, there were two fundamental options he could have chosen. These options were, roughly:
Option one or pragmatism above ideology: to make a determined effort to address Ukraine’s most urgent problems. At the very least, Zelenskii could have ordered his forces to stop firing and have them withdraw to a safe distance (Zelenskii had the full authority to do so, as soon as he was inaugurated and he did not need anybody’s help to do so). Obviously, such a move would have to be coordinated with the LDNR forces. And that, in turn, means that at the very least, Zelenskii should have opened a channel of direct communications with the two republics. This option could be described as “beginning to implement at least the very first steps of the Minsk Agreements.”
Option two ideology above pragmatism: to make a determined effort not to address Ukraine’s most urgent problems. The priority here is to declare that the Ukraine will not honor the Minsk Agreements: no talks with the LDNR, no ceasefire, no withdrawal of forces, no amnesty and, most definitely, no discussions about any kind of special status for the Donbass. This option could be described as “more of the same” or “Poroshenko reloaded.”
Prince Otto von Bismarck once famously said that “politics is the art of the possible” and I think that this is an excellent rule to keep in mind when trying to figure out what is going on and what might happen next. There is a lot of hyperbolic rhetoric out there, but no matter how delusional Ukie politicians can be, the reality remains something objective, and that objective reality is what will shape the future, not the empty ideological nonsense spewed by politicians (whether Ukrainian ones or AngloZionists).
As of right now, the overwhelming majority of experts have agreed that Zelenskii is not going for Option #1. This strongly suggests that the Ukraine is going for Option #2. But, as I have indicated above, Zelenskii’s Option #2 is nothing more than, well, “more of the same.” And this makes sense, especially if we consider that:
Even his own presidential website does not work!
1) the same causes produce the same outcomes (after all “insanity is repeating the same thing over and over expecting a different result) and
2) the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior
So what really happened? Why is Zelenskii apparently dead set on repeating all the same mistakes Poroshenko made?
As I have indicated in a recent article, the Ukraine is not a democracy but an oligarchy: ever since 1991 the most prosperous Soviet republic was mercilessly plundered by an entire class (in the Marxist sense of the word) of oligarchs whose biggest fear has always been that the same “horror” (from their point of view) which befell Russia with Putin, would eventually arrive at the Ukraine.
Here we need to make something clear: this is NOT, repeat, NOT about nationality or nationalism. The Ukrainian oligarchs are just like any other oligarchs: their loyalty is to their money and nothing else. If you want to characterize these oligarchs, you could think of them as culturally “post-Soviet” meaning that they don’t care about nationality, and even though their prime language is Russian, they don’t give a damn about Russia or Russians (or anybody else, for that matter!). Since many of them are Jews, they have a network of supporters/accomplices in Israel of course, but also in the West and even in Russia. In truth, these guys are the ultimate “internationalists” in their own, toxic, kind of way.
The other significant force in the Ukraine is the West Ukrainian (Galician) Nazi death-squads and mobs. Their power is not a democracy either, but an ochlocracy. These guys are a minority, a pretty small one even, but they have enough muscle and even firepower to threaten any nominal Ukrainian leader. Furthermore, these folks have profoundly infiltrated all the police and security forces which, in theory, would have been able to control or disarm them (the SBU, especially, is chock full of Urkonazi thugs).
Some fine specimens of “ochlocrats”
Now let’s begin by looking at the oligarchs: their number 1 priority is to continue to plunder the Ukraine. For that, you need the opposite of “law and order”: you need lawlessness, chaos, violence and, most importantly, you need the tiny figleaf of “the Moskal aggression” to hide behind. In other words, while these oligarchs probably do not want an open a full-scale war with the LDNR (or, even less with Russia herself), they simply cannot allow peace to break-out.
The Ukronazis don’t want peace to break out either, lest their influence and power shrink back to something roughly proportional to their share of the population of the Ukraine. Besides, since their entire ideology and worldview is all about hating Russia and being anti-Russia, any peace with Russia is literally unthinkable for them. They and their Polish supporters want Russia to break apart in numerous small state-lets which they (or, in their delusional dreams, the Chinese) could dominate. These folks will always perceive Russia as an existential threat. In their own way, they are absolutely right: Russia will always remain the reality check on their delusions. This was as true in the distant 13th century as it is nowadays.
Finally, let’s keep in mind that neither the oligarchs nor the Ukronazis genuinely want the people of Crimea and the Donbass to be part of “their” Ukraine since the overwhelming majority of these people would categorically oppose both the oligarchs and the Ukronazis. Yes, for prestige and ideological reasons, all these Galician Nazis will always declare that “Crimea is forever Ukrainian” and “we shall reconquer the Donbass,” but what they are genuinely fantasizing about is the territory, and only the territory. As for the 2 million-plus virulently anti-Nazi people currently living on these lands, they simply want them either dead or expelled).
So, while about 70% or so of the people of the Ukraine want peace to return and the horrors of the civil war to finally stop, the only two groups who have real power want the civil war in the East to continue. There are even quite a few Zelenskii nominees who have declared that war with the LDNR is the only way to solve the crisis. Some even want war with Russia!
Reality, however, is a pesky thing and, as the expression goes, if your head is in the sand, your butt is in the air and the collective Ukronazi “butt” has been exposed in the air for several years now. This is also true for the supposed “reforms” of the Ukronazi forces.
Quite a few signs are indicating that most of the so-called “reforms” and “reorganization” of the Ukronazi forces were more about corruption (what else!?) and window dressing than anything else. Galicians are generally famous as world-class torturers and executioners of civilians, but not really military commanders (this is why Ukronazi “historians” are now desperately parsing every year in the history of what is called the Ukraine today to find some kind of “Ukrainian” victory; all they came up with so far are very small, completely irrelevant, local battles). In contrast, the LDNR forces seem to be doing pretty well, and their morale appears to be as strong as ever (which is unsurprising since their military ethos is based in 1000 years of Russian military history). Last, but certainly not least, there is Putin’s rather striking warning during the Olympics when he declared that any Ukronazi attack would have, quote, “very serious consequences for Ukrainian statehood.”
This warning was apparently heeded both in Kiev and in Washington, DC.
The mood of the Russian public opinion seems to be one of total disgust and frustrated anger. It’s not like Zelenskii was ever very popular in Russia, but at least he was no Nazi, and he seemed to be willing to take at least the very first steps towards finally stopping the insanity. That hope is now totally shattered (the Russian media reports all the anti-Russian statements of the various Zelenskii nominees daily).
While the Kremlin more often than not sticks to its traditional diplomatic language, most Russian experts appear to be fed-up with Zelenskii and his antics and are now all pushing for some kind of hardening of the Russian stance towards this 5-year long Banderastan. And the Kremlin has paid attention: Russia is now handing out passports to pretty much any Ukrainian wanting to get one. This is the first step in a time-tested sequence, the next one which would be the recognition of the LDNR as sovereign states (as was done in Abkhazia and South Ossetia).
Many wonder what in the world Putin is waiting for and why Russia has not officially recognized these republics yet?
The reasons for this are as simple as they are compelling:
First, any premature recognition would further fuel the western fairy-tale about “Russia” having “invaded” the Ukraine to grab land. If the AngloZionists did not shy away from making such claims while Russian forces were still in their barracks, you could imagine the hysterical shrieks we would have heard from the “collective West” if Russia indeed had decided to move her forces into the Donbass to stop the Ukronazi aggression!
Second, to the degree that the Empire created an “anti-Russia” with its Ukronazi Banderastan, Russia created an “anti-Banderastan” with the LDNR. This is very important and must never be overlooked: yes, Nazi-occupied Ukraine is a never healing wound in the side of Russia, but Novorussia also is a never healing wound in the side of Nazi-occupied Ukraine. The big difference is that Russia is strong enough to cope with her wound, whereas the Ukronazi Banderastan never had a chance and has already collapsed beyond any hope of survival.
Third, Russia simply cannot afford to pay by herself the immense bill for the eventual reconstruction of devastated Ukraine. Just fixing Crimea is already an enormous and extremely costly task for Russia, especially after decades of Ukie neglect, but at least down the road, it is obvious that Crimea is headed for prosperity and that the returns on investment will be huge. But single-handedly rebuilding the entire Donbass is probably beyond the Russian means. Currently, Russia is already providing vast amounts of aid to the Novorussians, and she is basically maxed out.
Finally, let’s remember here that the UNSC approved the Minsk Agreements and that, as such, they are not an elective: the Minsk Agreements are obligatory under international law. And here is the beauty: Russia is not a part of the Minsk Agreements, only the Ukraine and the LDNR are. Thus while the AngloZionists mantrically repeat that “Russia must be sanctioned for not abiding by the Minsk Agreements” or “Russia must do more” – they all do secretly realize that this is empty, hot, air. Besides, even the duller western leaders now are beginning to realize which side truly does not want to abide by these agreements.
These agreements are even less popular in Novorussia than they are in Kiev: it is an open secret that the Novorussians will never agree to be ruled from Kiev again. Ever. And, sooner or later, they will join Russia in some shape or form. But that is in the future. For the time being, the Novorussians are smart enough to realize that they should go along and let the Ukronazi idiots openly sabotage these agreements. And since Zelenskii and his nominees are now declaring that they will never negotiate with the LDNR (which the Minsk Agreements require), it is not Russia or the LDNR which destroyed these agreements, but the Ukrainian government, quite officially so.
The sweet irony of Ukie politics: a Ukronazi vandalizes the portrait of the man who created the Ukraine in the first place!
One striking development since the election of Zelenskii is the number of Ukrainian political figures which have openly declared that the Ukraine should simply militarily re-capture the Donbass (some even suggested Crimea). It is thus probably a good idea to revisit the military options on all sides.
Let’s begin with the Ukronazi dream: this is pretty straightforward, and plenty of Ukrainian officials have mentioned the “Croatian option” which refers to the surprise attack of the Croats (fully backed by NATO) against the Serbian UN Protection Areas in Croatia (see “Operation Storm” on Wikipedia). The model is simple: pretend to negotiate in good faith, get (sympathetic) peacekeepers to disarm all the locals, then attack them with everything you’ve got. If the LDNR were all alone, cut off from Russia, there could be a theoretical (if somewhat unlikely) chance of success of such an attack. But we need to remember here that the Krajina-Serbs (and the Bosnian-Serbs too) were betrayed by Slobodan Milosevic who did nothing to protect them. In fact, Serbia even slammed sanctions against the Republika Srpska. Finally, NATO had complete and total air supremacy.
The case of the LDNR could not be more different because far from betraying the Donbass or imposing sanctions as Milosevic did, Putin gave the LDNR the full support of Russia. If the Ukrainians do attack, Russia will have a very wide array of options to chose from including:
- Sending in more humanitarian aid
- Sending in more military equipment (the “Voentorg”)
- Sending in more volunteers (the “northern wind”), especially highly trained professionals
- Sharing intelligence and reconnaissance data with the LDNR forces
- Deploying forward air controllers (FACs) in special forces teams to coordinate artillery strikes on Ukronazi targets from across the border
- Shooting down Ukrainian missiles and aircraft (including UAVs)
- Engaging Russian electronic warfare units to disrupt Ukie signals (radars, including counter-battery, GNSS signals, audio, and video communications, data links, etc.)
So far, this is what Russia has already done in the past (options #5-6-7 only in a few specific instances).
Now what people usually see as the next escalatory option for Russia would be to send ground forces into Novorussia to directly engage the attacking Ukronazi forces.
In truth, Russia has plenty of other options before a ground operation. For example, one further Russian option could include:
- Officially declaring a “humanitarian no-fly zone” à la Libya, in which “all means necessary” will be used to stop the aggression and then immediately send in Russian fixed-wing and rotary-wing close air support & strike aircraft (under cover of interceptors and multi-role fighters, of course) and even bombers to destroy advancing Ukie units.
Russia could very easily declare a no-fly zone over the Donbass without moving a single air defense unit across the border: Russian long-range air defenses are more than enough to “lock” that entire airspace, especially if combined with AWACS and interceptors (with long-range missiles).
Still, these steps, while very visible, would still be limited to the Donbass area of operations. But Russia could take this one step further and strike very specific targets in the rest of the Ukraine. Specifically,
- Russia could sink the entire (tiny) Ukrainian “fleet” in port or on the high seas. That would not be militarily significant, but politically it would send the correct message.
- Russia could decide to also destroy the Ukrainian air force by destroying the main Ukrainian airfields. Russia could very easily do this with long-range cruise missiles. Once enough runways, ATC towers, radars, fuel and oil storage facilities, etc. are destroyed, the Ukrainian airforce as such would cease to exist (even if individual aircraft could be hidden and survive the Russian strikes).
- Next, Russia could get serious with the Ukrainian ground forces and begin striking key command posts, communication nodes, fuel and ammo dumps, bridges, etc. The goal here would not be to kill as many Ukrainian servicemen as possible, but to hit in the right places to make it impossible for the Ukrainian military to engage in coordinated offensive operations.
- Finally, Russia could decide to open the hunting season on key officials and begin executing some of the most odious Nazi officials (just to scare the rest). Again, cruise missiles are probably the most obvious option here, but other options can be very successfully used including the “Dudaev trick” (an antiradiation missile aimed at a Satphone signal) or even go “full NATO” and begin hitting politically symbolic buildings.
I mention these last four options because these are doable, but they are also total overkill.
The truth is that should Russia ever truly intervene, most Ukrainian servicemen will run or surrender (they did not vote Zelenskii for the privilegeto die for a sick, Nazi, ideology and worldview). Again, past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior and the case of the Crimea has shown that once the (relatively small!!) Russian forces intervened, nobody had the courage (or the motivation) to resist.
[Sidebar: the popular joke about this goes like this: ask a Ukrainian nationalist why the Ukrainians are fighting in the Donbass, and the obligatory politically correct answer is “because the Russians are there!”; and if you then ask him why the Ukraine is not fighting in Crimea, he will reply “because the Russians are really there!“. This is very true. The Urkonazis have tried to engage in low-level forms of terrorism (planting bombs, mostly), but with very little success. As for really attacking Crimea (probably one of the best-defended locations on the planet by now!) – that would be a suicide mission for an entire US Marine Expeditionary Force (MEF), never-mind the derelict Ukie military!]
Furthermore, for the Russians, they have been intensively preparing for a major war against NATO for at least five years now (for details, see here) and they are quite ready to take on the united West (that is what Guards Tank Armies are designed to do), so for them to take on the decrepit, corrupt, demoralized, disorganized and generally “mangy” Ukronazi forces would not even represent a significant effort. Every halfway competent military analyst out there knows that. Even the Ukronazi ones.
What this all means for the Zelenskii administration is simple: if you try the “Croatian scenario” you will end up not with a “Croatian outcome” but a “Georgia 08.08.08 outcome”: obliteration of your armed forces in 48 hours, followed by the net loss of 20% of your national territory (probably more in the case of the Ukraine!).
[Sidebar: for many years now I have been explaining that the real goal of any Ukronazi attack on Novorussia would not be to really win, but to force Russia to openly intervene. However, this strategy has failed while the balance of forces, including in political terms, has changed. It is one thing to start a war with the LDNR only to force Russia to intervene, and quite another to expose your entire country to “very serious consequences” for its entire “statehood.” Putin’s (truly quite extraordinary) threat has explicitly raised the bar of the potential Russian retaliation much higher than it was before.]
So is there anything even vaguely resembling *any* kind of solution in sight?
Well, in theory, there would have been the Minsk Agreement solution. The Novorussians would not like it, but Russia could probably impose it upon them. Russia herself sure could live with such an outcome (no, Russia has absolutely no need of any additional territories, especially devastated ones!). But since the Ukronazis are too ideological and delusional to ever accept that option, then there is an obvious Plan B: Russia unilaterally recognizes the LDNR Republics who then vote to join the Russian Federation. In theory, the rest of the Ukraine could realize that there are advantages to this situation, including getting rid of 2 million anti-Nazis. But their ideology (really a local uniquely Galician brand of ultra-nationalism – similar only to the WWII Ustashe regime in Croatia – imposed upon the entire country) makes it absolutely impossible for these rabid nationalists to accept such a loss of territory, particularly in a humiliating civil war against their own people (or so they claim). Simply put, you cannot claim to be the descended of the 200’000 year old “Ancient Ukrs” who built the pyramids, who dug the Black Sea, who gave birth to the Aryan civilization and whose language is the basis of Sanskrit and, at the same time, admit that a big chunk of your own population prefers death to life under your rule. In reality, not only are these folks not willing to accept any loss of territory (whether de jure or de facto), some of them are even claiming territories inside the Russian Federation.
Thankfully, their delusions really make no difference: Novorussia and Crimea are gone, forever, no matter what anybody says.
Frankly, I believe that even without Crimea and even without Novorussia current Nazi-occupied Ukraine is still not viable, if only because the southern regions (Odessa, Nikolaev, Mariupol) will never agree to become Nazi-occupied protectorates of the very same Galician Urkonazis who have already burned people alive in Odessa. The truth is that the Galicians would be much better off severing their (entirely artificial) ties to what is known as “the Ukraine” nowadays and fallback to their true historical lands. Ideology, however, will never allow most of them to see that. The process of disintegration of the rump-Ukraine will probably continue in one form or another.
Conclusion: how one slogan can lead to a very different one
The entire Ukronazi worldview can be summarized in their well-known slogan: “to drown all the Kikes and Polaks in Moskal blood” (or some variations thereof). The problem with this slogan is that there is simply no way the (relatively small) Galician population can ever succeed in permanently defeating their much bigger (and, frankly, much smarter) Jewish, Polish or Russian neighbors. Thus time and again, the policies which begin with this famous Ukie slogan inevitably result in a rather painful variation on another very famous Ukie slogan: “suitcase, railway station, Russia” but, crucially, in a fundamentally different combination: “suitcase, railway station, and back to Canada/Israel!” ;-)
I personally don’t care what happens to these folks or to the lands which they historically inhabited. If the Austrians, the Poles, the Hungarians or the Germans want them – they are welcome to have them. After all, these are the folks who, along with the Papacy, created the Ukraine and the Ukronazi phenomenon. So, bien du plaisir!, as the French say: let them enjoy their offspring!
If the people of some future rump-Ukraine are strong and wise enough to get rid of that Nazi rot – good for them, they can count on Russian help and support for reconstruction. But if they are not – then that’s their problem.
When humans go out of their way to ignore reality, they deserve whatever comes their way.
The Saker
Volker is to meet with Surkov soon. He and Zelensky are trying to get a Normandy Group meeting which then can be expanded with the US and UK joining the four others (Russia, Germany, France and Ukraine).
Can you imagine Putin agreeing to such a bizarre attempt to ditch the Minsk 2 Accords and write a new pathway for Ukraine to gain back its border, the Donbass and Crimea?
The drugs one needs to conceive of this goal I think has not been discovered or created yet.
Of course, the bait for Russia is the US would trade all that for lifting the sanctions on Russia.
And while this was being worked out diplomatically, the shelling and mortars, snipers and kidnappings would continue by the Ukies against the civilians of Donbass.
What is not spoken of is this imaginative touch I will add to their Russophobic fantasy.
The Ukies will get to blow up the Kerch Bridge.
This is probably one of the most positive things that come of the Ukraine situation. The rift between EU and USA. EU forced to act totally against their own interests by obeying USA sanctions and actions in Ukraine, not only is it causing pro-USA politicians to become disgruntled. But it is causing entire populations in the western world to become disgruntled and vote in pro-Russian politicians. Such as in Italy. USA actions is causing the rise of European nationalism and with it the diminishment of US influence and increase in Russia influence.
Two weeks after the USA lifted its sanctions, the Russians would be framed for some new ‘outrage’, and the sanctions would be back on. The USA has always been duplicitous, but today, as its national and imperial dementia reaches the end-stage, it is totally untrustworthy.
L445:
The delusion of the west knows no bounds. By stirring up terror in Hong Kong, Trump envision China to knell and give up all future economic/tech developments in exchange for Hong Kong being left alone for the time being. By restoring sanctions Trump figures North Korea would give up all nuke arsenal and lick his boots in exchange for his considerations of lifting SOME sanctions. By inclusion of Russia in multilateral peace talks the west anticipates Russia to cower and give up Crimea. Etc. etc. LOL! They thought they are so prestigious that a mere gesture of recognizing the others’ existence would result in others handing over all their aspirations.
Arrogance is often blinding.
Any deal with the US of Zionism would be temporary and within a short time they would conjure up new ‘reasons’ for new sanctions.
Any successful (not gonna happen) attempt to destroy the Kerch bridge would result in all of the above Saker-stated options to crash down upon the Ukraine. Can you imagine how fast the Oligarchs would scramble to Israel?
Always searching for your comments Larchmonter445. Keep up the good work.
There is an option nr. 13 too:
Nuke the Euro-trash
The thing about the Ukronazis is that in addition to their manifest insanity, they stick to their fantasy — shared by all the other Eastern European honorary Euro-trash in Poland, the Baltics, Romania, etc. — that ’we matter to Europe; Europe needs us for her own protection’. The West’s ever faster rot, descent, and decline are irrelevant to them, but what if there are no more authentic Euro-trash specimina anymore?
lol? euro-trash? would black-trash and Arab-trash make more sense? Given that anti-white political ideology that rules the western world, someone being declared “honourary non-white” actually sounds like a title that could exist.
Reminds me of all those whites in USA that pretends to be part native american or part black to avoid their racial heritage as it is politically incorrect to be born with white skin in the liberal occupational zone in the western world.
The Eastern Europeans pretend as if Western Europe’s demographics and social composition are the same as in the 1950s, mind you. On this basis, they would be instantly desperate seeing their precious Western Europe going up in flames.
Still, it is the Euro-trash which is most in need of some tangible, literal ”Enlightenment”, nuclear style.
I suspect ‘Ukraine happened’ to try and force Putin into interfering in such a way he could be demonised enough to stage an attack on Russia (a la 1939 Germany, who was triggered into interfering in Poland because Germans living there were getting slaughtered).
Put in knew his history and didn’t fall for it IMO.
Another excellent article by The Saker. Putin is called a ‘chess player’. He certainly is. It is quite obvious that he is playing the waiting card, waiting for Ukraine to disintegrate, as it will. In fact Western analysts have since 2017 been stating that the country will break up into three parts.
What is sad for Ukrainians is that quite a number of them were fooled into backing the 2014 coup d’etat against Yanukovich, hoping to join the EU and get a Western standard of living, as they understood it. What they got Instead was a feudal state, run and plundered by modern day robber barons known as oligarchs, and backed by neo-Nazi elements, the modern day feudal retainers. The standard of living of the population began to fall, is constantly falling, and now the bulk of the population regrets Maidan of 2014.
The West, the EU and NATO, have been very foolish. They forgot about history and the fact that Ukrainians are of Russian origin. In 2014 they applied a pragmatic, colonial approach. They instigated a coup d’etat against Yanukovich, hoping to drag Ukraine into the EU and NATO and place missiles right next to Russian borders. A chain reaction ensued. Putin reunited Crimea with Russia and gave his support for the creation of the Donbass buffer states. We now have stalemate. The Donbass Russians are too well armed and dug in for the Ukrainian ‘military’ to defeat them, as the ‘military’ is made up of demoralized, poorly fed and trained conscripts who have no wish to fight. Should Zelensky order an attack, he would most probably get a Maidan in reverse, as the population would certainly react, while the conscripts would either surrender or run away. The fact that the number of politicians in the Ukrainian Parliament, who are demanding a military solution for the Donbass is on the rise, means nothing, as they have no support or authority, bearing in mind that the Ukrainian Parliament holds politicians who were permitted to participate in elections and not those who were not.
I have been reading that by December of 2017 some 4 million Ukrainians have fled to the West and 4.4 million to Russia, and that currently 100.000 are emigrating every month. I don’t know if the last figure is an exaggeration, but it is a fact that Ukrainians are emigrating and reducing the total work force. On one occasion workers from one manufacturing plant in Ukraine emigrated ‘en masse’ to Russia, forcing the plant to shut down.
Finally, I don’t see Ukraine surviving. It cannot function without Western funds, and the EU has stated that it has no more money to give it, knowing perfectly well that the money it has already given has mostly been embezzled by oligarchs. What Ukraine can expect is either a spontaneous reaction by the population, directed against the Government, or else a passive reaction, where the population will cease to obey the authorities, leading to the break up of the country into three parts. As one analyst has stated, Ukrainians in the end will come begging to Russia, asking it to accept them back. And that is indeed where they belong, the former Galicia excluded.
@B.F: “What Ukraine can expect is either a spontaneous reaction by the population, directed against the Government, or else …”
I hope that happens; and I hope the same will happen in Britain and France.
“You have nothing to lose but your [AZC] chains”.
“On one occasion workers from one manufacturing plant in Ukraine emigrated ‘en masse’ to Russia, forcing the plant to shut down.” They also took all the tooling and machinery with them.
Putin is a chess-player all right, but since he is an adept of Kung Fu also, is is likely that he had a go at the Go (Weiqi) game. And certainly a virtue that he developed by his acquaintance with the ‘East’ is patience, endurance. After all Russia has a history of thousand years in which it grew when it was strong and lost nothing when it was weak and recovered even what was temporarily lost.
I went to Catholic high school sixty years ago, so I recognise all of these hyper-bellicose ferociously anti-Russian ethnic groups you mention (the Croats, the Galicians, the Poles, the Slovenes, the Slovaks, and the Balts–at least the Lithuanians) as historically deriving a huge part of their national identity from their nearly universal Papist faith. The public schools in Chicago never enrolled those kids, they all went to Holy Trinity, Weber, De Paul or Gordon Tech (along with the Irish and the Italians). This is all just a never-ending continuation of the Great Schism, the clash between Rome and Byzantium–though Constantinople fell to the Mohammedans five hundred years ago–is it not? The Catholic Southern Europeans (Spanish, Portuguese, French and Italians) have historically taken the fight against the Protestant apostates in Northwestern Europe. The Irish had their own tiff with the Brits and Scots. Christopher Hitchens was right: religion ruins everything.
“religion ruins everything”
Religious teachings (including most non-religious teachings, with the exception of ideologies like Zionism) are not the cause of hatred, envy, arrogance, greed, death, destruction and chaos. This is a very weak atheistic materialistic (God-less, spiritual-less) myth that does not hold up to basic logic or even common sense.
More humans have been slaughtered in the name of imperialism, nationalism and colonialism, then all religious wars in human history combined, just as an example….by the way this is not about “which ideology caused the most death and destruction” game.
People are to blame for wars, not religious teachings, and we know historically speaking that some people are more violent and criminal and destructive then others. People are to blame for corrupting religious teachings and twisting them for their own benefit, just like they use and corrupt the basket full of other -isms that men have came up with.
The “religion ruins everything” mantra is getting very old and rusty, especially as the West is trying to claw its way out out of its decomposing dark liberal black hole.
Not all religions, but catholics, and their splinters, are rabid proletizers. Living in the contact regions between catholic, and orthodox faiths, where the latter ones were put to choose between being murdered, or converting to the “true” faith, quickly dismisses your point.
Not at all…..people still to blame, whether its changing or interpreting teachings as they see fit, or whether to organize the killing of other people.
Your argument, Harry, relies on the presumed fact that religion of whatever stripe, once subscribed to, has the ability to make any human, of whatever stripe, a paragon of virtue, which is known to be untrue. You use the same false arrgument the NRI uses in the U.S.. It’s not guns that kill people, it’s people, which is of course a truism. This is a naive argument that fails to acknowledge the obvious fact that the lack of guns would contribute
to less gun deaths. The argument that I make, on the same lines, is that a lack of religion would contribute in the same way to less fanatics causing all sorts of mayhem in the name of religion. See my point?
Slovenes and Croats are not predominantly anti-Russian. And probably Slovaks as well.
Saker gives too much weight to Vatican and so called PAPACY. Maybe in the distant past Vatican had some role in creation of Ukrainian nation but I think that it was actually Polish nationalism.
Catholic Southern European peoples has far less anti-Russian sentiment then Germanic . and predominantly Protestant northern part of Europe.
Vatican has never recognized Kosovo. And Catholic Church in Latin America is under constant pressure from US and Protestantism which tries to get dominance and push catholic Church aside.. Globalist see Vatican as enemy. In the past they were united in anticommunism stance but it is the PAST now.
And Orthodox world is now more anti-Russian than Catholic world. Not peoples probably but political elites. Greece has always been undisputed part of anti-Russian block, and for the last 27 years Romania, Bulgaria, now even Macedonia and Monte-Negro, not to mention Ukraine and Georgia. Ukrainian Orthodox nationalist priests are very anti-Russian.
Even Armenia has strong anti-Russian feeling but problem with Azerbaijan and historical fear caused by Turkish genocide make that anti-Russian feeling not coming on surface.
So, non stop talking about Papacy as problem for Russia is somehow … obsolete and ridiculous.
I think that there are two main reasons that Russia does not want Ukraine to break up in the pieces. First it is economic problem – Russia cannot support economically devastated lands with tens of millions people.
Second Russia KNOWS that Ukraine cannot survive without Russia and never will be able to survive without Russia. Pure nationalism cannot solve that problem. And Putin and Moscow know that Ukraine will go back to Russia. Putin recently said something like this.
Peskov said – we have to be very patient with Ukraine. And it is absolutely true.
Bosnian Croat,
Interesting comment. Yes, there are several orthodox countries that have anti-Russian sentiment, but not sure these countries represent the “Orthodox world”. None of the countries have populations that exceed 10 M people. Armenia has a population of less than 3 M. Montenegro has a population of only 600,00O (approx) , The big exception is Romania with 20 M (and they have a territorial issue with Russia/Moldova which could also explain anti -Russian sentiment). On the other hand, Poland, a catholic country, has a population of almost 40 M. France and Italy both have populations of over 60M.
Given the size of their respective populations, the anti-Russian sentiment of these Catholic countries is far more indicative of a trend…
Poland does not represent Catholic world. And Polish- Russian historical problems are not necessary related to religious differences.
Catholic world is much bigger than Poland. For example, South America has never been rusophobic, Southern Europe has never been significantly rusophobic, Catholic parts of Africa and Asia have never been rusophobic.
So it is nonsense.The most rusophobic countries are former members of former Eastern Block, and Protestant Germanic and Anglosaxon parts of the world.
But there are differences among countries of former Eastern Block. Czechs and Slovaks are less rusophobic than Orthodox Romania for example. Bulgarians gained freedom from Ottoman Empire by Russian help but they have always allied with Russian enemies.
If we talk about Orthodox countries, rusophobic governments are in all of them with exception of Belarus and Serbia.
And yes, I forgot to say that today is wide gap between governments and peoples in so called rusophobic countries. Their governments are American and British slaves, but peoples have more or less different feeling toward Russia than their political elites which are paid or blackmailed by America.
Russia is gaining popularity all over the world. And Russia has learned from USSR mistakes.
And this is a reason that this situation will not last forever.
Bosnian Croat,
Since you bring up South America, how do you think they became Catholic? The Vatican sent clergy and missionaries to accompany the Spanish colonisers.
In Eastern Europe the conflict is more than just ethnic, ie more than just Croats vs Serbs or Poles vs Russians: The book Magnum Crimen, describes how the Catholic clergy joined the Croatian paramilitary troops to kill/convert/cleanse the orthodox christians living in Krajina.
The Holy See did not recognise Kosovo but they did organise, just recently, in Kosovo, a catholic mass in the Orthodox St Nicholas church at Novo Brdo. This is orthodox holy land, what is the Vatican doing in Kosovo?
The Holy See has recognised the Kiev patriarchate. This is an internal orthodox issue so why is the Vatican weighing in?
Augustine of Hippo, who developed the “just war” thesis, is a saint in the Latin church but not in the orthodox church. Can this doctrine explain the aggressive meddling by the Vatican?
I am not religious and I do not care about priests and their bullshit.
But, Church created some aspects of civilization and cannot be ignored.
This problem is internal problem of Orthodox church in Ukraine but everyone can have his opinion including Vatican. And to recognize this or that Church.
So, if one segment of Ukrainian society want its own Church, then where is the problem. If they want autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church, then they have full right to organize it.
Only, they DO NOT HAVE RIGHT TO FORCE OTHERS to accept that Church if they do not want. Problem with all Churches is absolute lack of tolerance.
Also, Serbian Orthodox Church blocks Macedonian Orthodox Church to become recognized Church and to become a member of family of Orthodox Churches. It is pure national imperialism.
Who are those Serbian priests to take themselves right to behave like that. And that create conflict between two peoples.
Yes, albanian priests served mass in some Orthodox Church but I do not know circumstances and I do not know if anyone in Rome knew about this.
What is Vatican doing in Kosovo? Stupid question, Catholic Church exist in Kosovo for centuries. And you Serbs should not forget that you and your kings used to be Catholics, King Stefan Prvovencani was crowned by Roman Pope. Later he converted to Orthodox Faith and Turned toward Constantinopol under influence of his brother Rastko Nemanjic, called Sveti Sava (Sveti means Saint).
So, today situation where Serbs are Orthodox and Croat Catholics and Bosniak are muslims is consequence of historical coincidence and series of historical accidents. Bosniaks, Serbs, Croats and Montenegrians have the same roots, origin and background. But we had bad luck that all these divisions happened in our lands.
Here is the link about Catholic mass being served in an Orthodox Church.
http://orthochristian.com/122884.html
There is a Latin Church nearby the Orthodox church, so why did they not go there for their mass? Why choose a site which is under special protection of the Serbian Orthodox church?
Bosnian Croat
What you have written is absolute nonsense. Slovaks are certainly not anti-Russian. Slovenes are probably not. However, this cannot be said for Croats, bearing in mind what you did during World War two.
To state that the Orthodox world is more anti-Russian than the Catholic world is unbelievable. Romania, Bulgaria, Macedonia and Montenegro were forced to join NATO, their leadership being pressed to do this. In Montenegro you had mass demonstrations against this. Can NATO rely on these states ? As for Ukraine, a new Ukrainian Orthodox Church has been created, made up of rogue priests and backed by the US. However, when the Russian Orthodox Church organized manifestations in 2018, hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians participated in Kiev alone.
Ukraine has no future, as it is bound to break up. More than 4 million Ukrainians have already fled to Russia. Neither does NATO have any future. Analysts are already stating that Germany is looking towards the East. Merkel’s political days are numbered.
You talk nonsenses.
If we talk about Croatia, there is not strong anti-Russian feelings there. I know that. In Second World War Quisling puppet government sent unit to fight in Stalingrad but it is nothing to do with today situation. There are some groups and far-right minor parties which have openly anti-Russian stabce but they are not capable even to get into Parliament.
Even Croatian government which is sub-servant to America almost never have anti-Russian rethoric except when American masters demand from them to say something in that direction, but even in such situations Kolinda Grabar Kitarovic or A. Plenkovic try to avoid openly hostile comments. Such comments are very unpopular in public.
It is enough to see peoples’ predominantly negative comments on anti-Russian texts in Croatian media which are by the way under globalist control.
In Croatia there is anti-Serbian feeling, not anti-Russian, there are different things.
All Orthodox countries except Serbia and Belarus are ruled by governments openly hostile to Russia. And it is fact. We can believe that peoples of these countries think differently than their governments but they DO NOTHING TO CHANGE THAT, which is shame.
Yes, those countries were forced by West to behave like that but it is not excuse for doing nothing to change that.
And we can say that also non-Orthodox countries were forced to join NATO and to take anti-Russian stance.
In general, Catholic world TODAY is not very anti-Russian. Poland, and I do not know MAYBE about Hungary, and that is it.
On the other side, predominant part of Ukrainian society is very hostile toward Russia, and Georgians better not to mention. And we all remember anti-Russian eruption in Armenia when one Russian soldier in insanity killed Armenian family several years ago. Romania and Moldova as well. Trayan Basecu former Romanian President said that he was proud on his grandfather for fighting in Stalingrad and that he would do the same today.
Bulgarians do not invite Russian delegation on annual celebration of Bulgarian National Day when they gained freedom from Ottomans. And Russia actually liberated them.
Yes, MAYBE peoples in those countries think opposite but where is public action to change that? NOTHING. NONE. ZERO.
It is very sad fact that Russia have much better relations with Islamic republics of former USSR than Orthodox ones.
Ukrainian religious problem with all this TOMOS nonsense has nothing to do with Vatican and Vatican did not want to support it. But it has to do with USA and UK imperialist actions. USA and UK are predominantly Protestant countries. But I also think that Protestantism is not the most important motivation for their imperialist deeds.
Vatican today is not even a shadow of what Vatican used to be several centuries ago. It used to be absolutely powerful but Reformation in 16. Century reduced that power and after Protestant Revolution power of Pope and Vatican has been decreasing till today.
And West today is everything but not religious.
Bosnian Croat says…
‘On the other side, predominant part of Ukrainian society is very hostile toward Russia,’
I think this is very far from true…
I would say only a small minority, the Galicians, are ethnically hostile to Russia.
Most Ukrainians don’t even know how to speak the Ukrainian language. Everybody speaks Russian. In fact getting even government documents translated into Ukrainian has been comically inept.
The ruling claque is certainly very anti-Russian, for reasons of politics as Saker outlines here. But the average Ukrainian in Kiev consider themselves and Russians as brotherly. That is besides the large part of the population that self-identifies as ethnically Russian.
You made some reasonable sounding comments here, but your take on Ukraine undermines your credibility.
The big picture is that all of Eastern Europe is waking up to the fact that the yellow brick road promised by the west is nothing but bullshit…they have seen their domestic industry dismantled and replaced by German imports. The result is McJobs for the people, same as the under-strata in the US. Job security is non-existent…
The people now realize they’ve been fooled. This goes for East Germany also…
Here is what polls show across the region…
25 years later…Eastern Europe show nostalgia for Communism
Ordinary Ukrainians are with each passing day realizing that the west is all hat and no cattle…it’s all bullshit…and it’s their lives that are at stake…
They will come back to Mother Russia…Putin said it best in a recent interview with Oliver Stone…
‘The Russians and Ukrainians are one people…’
To which Stone replied…
One people, two nations…?
Putin…
No…ONE NATION…
I was talking about Ukrainian part of Ukraine. Half of Ukraine is Novorussia, it should be part of Russia and belongs to Ukraine because of Lenin and his bolsheviks.
So, pro-russian part of today Ukraine are Russians and they can call themselves whatever they want,
Other part of Ukraine, call them nationalists or whatever they want, they are NOT RUSSIANS even if historically they have russian origins. Dmitry Yarosh, for example is not Russian. And that extremist Paruby. And crowd jumping and screaming about killing Moskals, they are not Russians.
MAybe they will be Russians one day, maybe not, but with that hatred, they are not Russians.
And, about Eastern Europe waking up, we will see about that. Anti-Russian feelings used to be very strong there, they are firmly under American control, and I do not think that waking up will happen soon.
If that WAKING UP is presumed as some rebellion against American absolute control and turning to Russian side, then forget about it for our lifetime.
Yes, that anti-Russian feelings decreased and disappointment with EU and West is , they realize miore and more that they are colonized, but it is still far away from some possible turning point.
That’s a reasonable comment.
One important point…the US is an empire that is collapsing…there is no stopping that because its economic system is a house of cards…a Ponzi Scheme…
Read prof Micheal Hudson on this…the foundation is mathematically unsustainable…go to wikipedia and look up exponential growth…under the heading finance you will find two examples…compound interest and Ponzi Scheme…
They are mathematically identical…despite the oligarch bullshit about the ‘magic’ of compound interest…the problem is fundamental because money is created as debt…with interest attached…this is exponential growth of the economy’s money…
But the real economy that produces goods cannot grow exponentially…that is a physical impossibility…eventually the system collapses just like every Ponzi scheme…
As prof Hudson, who is the foremost scholar of ancient economies going back 3000 years has shown…the ancient peoples found a solution to this…it is called wiping the slate clean…debt forgiveness…
This will never happen today…when the system inevitably collapses, then what happens to all those Eastern Europeans who have loaded up on debt that they never had in the communist system…they will be struggling just to literally survive…
Your assumption does not take into account the collapse of the American economic and financial system…which will also take down the major countries of Europe that are tied to it…
All good, but I think that collapse of American system will not happen in my lifetime.
When debt grows faster than the economy for decades, you’re in trouble. When the economy is financialised and workers’ wages suppressed while trillions are siphoned off or created out of thin air to be given to the oligarch parasites, to blow up gigantic asset bubbles, the trouble re-doubles. But when it all happens amidst a global ecological Holocaust that neoliberal capitalism can ONLY worsen-well, then you are well and truly stuffed.
Any Eastern Europeans who saw their future with the EU, NATO and the West, will get a rude shock when the EU implodes under debt, inequality, vicious austerity and internecine hatred. The economic future is in the East, and Ukraine could have been a bridge between West and East, but the Atlanticist thugs, Victoria Nudelman, Brennan and the CIA were having none of that.
Well said Mulga…
The world is moving away from imperialism of the last 500 years, to a new civilizational model…led by the Chinese…Saker got this exactly right in his previous article about the last empire…
Godfree Roberts writes very good analyses on China…for instance Pew research, a western polling outfit found that 80 percent of Chinese trust their government, compared to 20 percent in the US…
He has written a tremendous three part history of Mao’s Great Leap forward…which brainwashed Americans think was a commie tyrant who starved millions of people…the exact opposite is true…
Now they are demonizing China’s Belt Road as some kind of sinister empire building…again, the exact opposite is true…China has lifted 800 million people from poverty to middle class…and their vision is to bring all of suffering Asia into that belt of prosperity and progress…
The west is going backwards in progress…wealth disparity in the US is now the same as it was 100 years ago, after a very good era in the middle of the last century due to FDR and his successors…the Soviet Union played a big part in that because the US had to compete with another system that took care of its people…they had to show they also cared about the people…although vast swaths of the underclass remained…
Western Europe still has some pockets of quasi socialism remnants, ie the Nordic countries…but look at France and the UK…the middle class is disappearing…
Eastern Europe has not benefitted at all from joining the imperialist west, mainly because their role from the beginning was to serve as colonies that could be exploited…even the food they get is second-rate, in the SAME PACKAGING…
Some think the coming collapse of the financialized Ponzi Scheme economy of the west is going to take a long time…but it may come VERY SUDDENLY…I think the ruling elite are very worried right now, which is why they are displaying increasingly desperate behavior…
But look at the big picture…the only power the west still has is in finance and the money game…China’s industrial capacity dwarfs the west…in intellectual power Russia leads the world…a legacy of the Soviet system of academic and scientific rigor…Russia graduates twice as many engineers as the US, according to Forbes…China is quickly catching up in technical potential…
This is the emergence of a new, prosperous and peaceful world order…where exploitative finance capitalism has no role to play…[although Russia is still too capitalistic…hopefully they will progress to a Chinese model, the ideal mix of free enterprise at the street level, but with large, important economic sectors in firm government control…]
Bosnian Croat,
Since you’re allowed to propagate your vile revisionist history and continue to post strawman arguments to compliment your lies, I’ll take the time to help educate the community on the history of the Vatican and the Croats .
I advise anyone curious to do a simple search of croatia/ukraine cooperation. The Croats, experts of the strategy, have even helped instruct them on how to fabricate an entire history and language, by appropriating their victims identity. Converted usurpers, still using the same Austro-German/Roman Catholic policy of ethnicity-creation and falsification
of history, to kill your own brethren. Too ashamed to recognize the monumental betrayal and horrific acts of your forefathers.
The persecution of the Orthodox Christians, by the Vatican and their psychopathic vermin, has continued unabated since the great schism (A religious succession to Roman savagery against Slavs dating back to the founding of the republic):
Let’s start with some quotes from the horses/demons mouth:
From the papacy of Lucious II on, There’s documented accounts from the Vatican archives dating back to at least the 12th century and practiced by Francis still today.
Here’s a few of the early quotes attributed to the Popes of Rome. From “Terror over Yugoslavia (1953)” , by Avro Manhattan:
“Papal anti-Slavic odium has been virulent throughout the centuries. Pope Lucious II (d.1145) called Serbs “calumniators of the Holy Church”, “plague of the Church” , “thieves of the income of Priests” and invaders. Pope Honorious III (1221) called all Slavs “foxes, rebels, heretics, perfidious destroyers”.
Nothing recent you say? The Saker, citing the mass execution and ethnic cleansing of Serbs, perpetrated by Croatians in Operation storm (1995), already provided very recent proof of the Vatican’s continued persecution of the Orthodox people. The Vatican and their disgusting Polish (Slav) puppet John Paul, played an instrumental role in propagating the lies of their Nazi disciples and even provided material support for their atrocities.
Hey, here’s an article with verifiable quotes and documented evidence of papal/Vatican influence in modern times:
http://www.balkanalysis.com/blog/2005/04/09/another-side-of-the-pope-john-paul-iis-balkan-legacy/
Why don’t you tell people about his deathbed confession? Responsible for the death and mutilation of Orthodox Christians. His Slavic “brothers”. He would have made a perfect Ustasha, don’t ya think? Pope pious XII must have been smiling from Hell.
And finally we get to Pope pious xII, whom the world named “Hitler’s Pope” and the reason that the abomination that is the state of croatia, should be abolished for all eternity. For those that don’t know, the croatian death camps , where well over a million Serbs and thousands of Jews and Roma were exterminated, were considered the most sadistic by both SS officers and Jewish historians alike . They were also built with Vatican instruction and run by croatian Roman Catholic friars. Yes, more than 600 Catholic clergy directly took part in this Holocaust. The Vatican Holocaust! What many SS officers In WWII and Jewish Holocaust historians today, consider the most gruesome genocide in human history.
An excellent article including quotes from Himler himself:
http://churchandstate.org.uk/2015/12/the-role-of-the-catholic-church-in-yugoslavias-holocaust/
For a comprehensive detailing of the Serbian Holocaust, still hidden by the west to this day, please check out the free online version of Avro Manhattan’s Vatican Holocaust:
http://www.reformation.org/holocaus.html
Here’s an English documentary titled the Vatican Ratlines. The real Ratlines. Unfortunately, it predates the British government unsealing WWII records, just a decade ago, revealing Tito and his communists collaborating with Croatian Nazis.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MBm_uD9xFt8
Here’s a few more articles documenting the greatest genocide perpetrated in WWII, against one nation and the croatian attempts (backed by the empire) to falsify and discredit this horrific chapter in human history.
https://adarapress.com/2019/02/03/holocaust-historian-dr-gideon-greif-in-croatia-jasenovic-was-an-empire-of-death-the-auschwitz-of-the-balkans-where-800000-serbs-were-murdered/
/morbid-racist-poster-in-eu-croatia/
The Catholic Church is trying to reward sainthood to this butcher:
https://adarapress.com/2017/07/30/chief-israeli-historian-condemns-effort-to-erase-history-of-croatian-auschwitz-of-the-balkans-and-to-canonize-catholic-war-criminal-archbishop-aloysius-stepinac/
At the Yalta Conference, U.S. President F. D. Roosevelt stated: “The crime of genocide committed against Serbs and Jews in the death camps of Croatia – the Croats should prohibit the possibility of establishing an independent state for the next 1000 years.”
Well, not only was your kind not punished, you’ve been rewarded by the evil empire that controls our world. That has given you the audacity to post your hogwash. But, the day will soon come that croats will be held responsible for their crimes against humanity. And every decent human will understand the disgusting Croatian legacy.
OK, this pile of nonsense above have nothing to do with this topic about Ukraine.
Arguing here with fanatical Balkan nationalists is useless and wasting of time.
I will tell just one thing – this text above is prefect example why Serbian nationalists pushed Serbian nation in bloody conflict with EVERY OTHER ethnic group or nationalities in EX Yugoslavia. And not only Yugoslavia.
Russia and Russians MUST NOT and WILL NOT follow this pattern, because it would destroy Russian Federation.
And my message to author of this text above – this is not place for such discussion. If you wish we can find some other site or forum to discuss about whatever you want. But not here, because such discussion does not belong here. In Serbian language if you wish.
Please leave the personal attacks out of the discussion – mod
Pile of nonesense? These are facts, spawn of Nazis. I will continue to provide FACTS every time I see one of you monsters try to poison the thread with your despicable lies. Its only because croats have never been held to account for your barbarism. You have no shame.
croat, you contradicted the Saker’s argument, pertaining to the Vatican. I have every right to refute your insidious lies and provide a mountain of evidence to the contrary. As long as you’re allowed to post your bullspit, I’ll be here to provide the truth.
Croatians are nothing but Frankish manufactured vermin. How about corroborating your disgusting revisionist history? The only time your sadistic croatia has existed, in history, was during WWII as a Nazi puppet state. The Serbian Nemanjic dynasty was Catholic? Who taught you this ridiculous tripe? Learning history from the most vile butchers, the world has ever known, is no way to go through life.
Tell me any web site or forum and we will discuss about this. But not here.
And you know nothing about your history, it is very sad.
I am sorry to disappoint you. but your beloved King Stefan of Nemanic dinasty was baptized two times, first time as Catholic in Zeta, today Crna Gora which was under Rome, and then in Ortofdox Church ater he returned to Raska.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Nemanja
Quote:
Nemanja was born around the year 1113 AD in Ribnica, Zeta (in the vicinity of present-day Podgorica, the capital of Montenegro). He was the youngest son of Zavida, a Prince of Zahumlje, who after a conflict with his brothers was sent to Ribnica where he had the title of Lord. Zavida (Beli Uroš) was most probably a son of Uroš I or Vukan. Since western Zeta was under Roman Catholic jurisdiction, Nemanja received a Latin baptism,[2] although much of his later life was spent balancing Western and Eastern forms of Christianity
He was also crowned twice, first time by Roman Pope
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronation_of_the_Serbian_monarch
Quote:
Stefan (r. 1196–1228), the son of Grand Prince Stefan Nemanja, was crowned with a crown sent by Pope Honorius III in 1217.[2][4] According to Fine Jr., he was crowned by a papal legate.[5] It is unknown where the coronation took place.[6] J. Kalić believes that it was Peter’s Church, Ras.[7] It has been assumed that Stefan was crowned a second time by Archbishop Sava, his brother.[8] In the second charter to the Žiča monastery dated to ca. 1224, King Stefan ordered for all future kings to be crowned at that monastery.[6] His contemporaries and successors called him “the First-Crowned King
Unneccessary comment removed – mod
Again, tell me where you want to discuss with me, this is not place for that, people here are not interested in Balkan BS.
Bos Croat…you may continue the conversation at the unz.com website, where this article originally appeared, and where Saker is a regular contributor…the link is at the top of the page…
Much looser moderation and bigger community…but a lot of indoctrinated American dolts, plus race haters and anti-semites…
Unz, himself a Jew encourages Holocaust denial and Nazi glorification…for what it’s worth…
I will say I admire your civility in the face of unprovoked attacks…
Here’s the problem with the former Yugoslavia…because it’s FORMER…
I visited this beautiful country in the 1980s and it quickly became my favorite…all you have done is shoot yourselves, collectively, in the foot…
You former Yugoslavs are nothing now…you fell for the oldest trick in the book, divide and rule…
Religion is bullshit and has caused more trouble than anything in human history…nothing good has ever come from religion…
You South Slavs are one people, with a common ancestor and you speak the same language…you were on your way to becoming an important country…now look at yourselves…
Thank you very much.
And yes, South Slavs are basically same people or better to say peoples with same origin and roots. But during the centuries under many foreign occupations we went in little different directions. That need to be respected.
Yugoslavia was optimal solution for all its ethnic groups and peoples, but nationalism destroyed that beautiful country.
And yes, we are colonies now. And we can do nothing to change that.
Bosnian Croat,
There was no military conflict between Serbia and Montenegro and Macedonia. The ethnic conflict was was only between the different religious groups.
The MSM narrative is that these wars.. Serbia -Croatia, Ukraine -Russia are ethnic, localised phenomena, due to the fact that the locals are barbarians/ bears/fill-in insult/ who just can’t get along..
The truth is that these wars are part of a wider global religious war which has flared up in the border zones all over not just E Europe but Middle East.
It’s not about religion per se, which we need for our spiritual well being, but about weaponised religion.
“Weaponised religion” …..well said !
It’s not religion. It’s the people.
Back in 2014, game theory according to western planners probably went like this. Destabilise Ukraine in the most blatant manner possible. If the Russians move in to stabilise it western agitprop gets all ammunition/’evidence’ of ‘Russian aggression ‘ and a possible ‘Croatia/Afghanistan/albania/ ‘ well, take your pick. This leads to significant strain on Russian state and consequently destabilization. Scenario 2, the Russians do nothing but complain about it (as qween death predicted) the Russian people lose confidence in their leaders, priming them for colour revolution 2.0. Winning either way. Intervention in Crimea was forced. There was no other way there than immediate action. As for the rest of Ukraine Putin found a third way. Putin has stated that ukrainians are Russian. Most of them may have been sceptical of stories about russian invasion in 2014. The sight Russian military in dombas would have made them believe such stories. They would be convinced today that Russia was denying them the nirvana that is European dream. They have been in capable hands of their beloved west for 5 years now. They know now what western integration means. Everyone of their leaders since 91 has failed them. What do they do when the west has nothing good to offer them and no leadership of their own to look to. Remember their roots of course. Herein lies the genius of fast track Russian citizenship. Ukrainians had to learn the lessons of ‘we are not Russian we are europe’ the hard way. It is of course terribly unfortunate that novorosians had to carry the Stalingrad burden in this western blitzkrieg 2.0 but there way no good options from the start.
@Putin School Applicant.
I give that essay A+ for analysis.
Will return next year to assess your PS for prediction.
Every time uncle shmuel sends weapons to the Ukraine the already exhausted Ukrainians probably feel disappointed and frustrated. They want the civil war to end. They Know who to direct their anger at now more before.
Thank you Saker, Auslander has mentioned a few times how, while his wife I think, was on the phone to some friends a missile hit their apartment/house and killed the inhabitants, while his wife was on the ‘communication devise’ (his words) with the people in the house. From that, he became a step parent to some children who now work with Dondas Army. Auslander can correct me if I’m wrong, hey it happens, but once the Saker mentioned the ‘Dudaev Trick’ I will for now presume that’s how they were killed, or a similar type missile.
I suspect the next important date in this Ukrainian fiasco will be the completion of Nord Stream II and Turkstream. There will be no need to transit gas through the Ukraine and they lose some $3 billion in income. Poland is threatening to jack-up it’s transit charges for Yamal, so Western Europe is going to have to make some very hard decisions about its economic survival, and I’m pretty sure which way German industrialists will lean.
Obviously Poland is still harbouring dreams of being a US LNG gas hub for Europe, but apart from the Ukraine and the Baltic Statelets (with their competing Lithuanian gas hub), who in Europe will buy the more expensive US LNG?
It’s not just about the expense of LNG…the big issue is energy security, which means a reliable supply for the next decades…
US fracking is a flash in the pan…every serious energy analyst knows that…here today, gone tomorrow…these resources are already pretty much spent…
Russia is now indisputably the world’s energy superpower…not just in hydrocarbons, but importantly, nuclear…Russia dominates the world here, not just in market share but in technology…new and revolutionary, clean fast breeder tech is already here, which will solve the waste issue…real fusion power is now on the horizon…thanks to Russian technology…
The Ukies are going for “ideology above pragmatism”, just like their Lord and Masters, the NeoCons. And though Russia probably won’t help fix up all of Ukraine, Putin will probably still forgive the sobs anyway, instead of putting them in front of a firing squad.
“An ideologue – one who thinks ideologically – can’t lose. He can’t lose because his answer, his interpretation and his attitude have been determined in advance of the particular experience or observation. They are derived from the ideology, and not subject to the facts” James Burnham
And unfortunately the ideologues’ delusions could become reality, because if someone sticks to their ideology for hundreds of years, the circumstances could eventually come to suit them, especially if they provide nudges in their desired direction over time. Therefore it takes active counter nudges over time to prevent the ideologues’ delusions from becoming reality.
While I am not about to argue, but I believe that Ochlos does not possess any ruling powers, actually never did. Except for make noise and trouble.
The power is in the hands of the kind Zelensky belongs to. They run the fascists (aka misdirected nationalist idiots) and the other ochlos.
Someone in Greece, not to long ago, said: “if you look at who funds the ultra leftists and ultra-nationalists you will see the hand of CIA”. They do not care who makes the trouble as long as the trouble is done. This is why Golden dawn died in last Greek Elections, most people woke up. Mind you not to Syriza yet, but this one is coming as well.
Putin warned of “very serious consequences for Ukrainian statehood” during the 2018 World Cup (football, soccer) – not during the 2016 Olympics.
I agree in every word of this analysis.
There is, however, a point that is worrying, very worrying: it is not addressed and should deserve attention.
How much time this situation will last? Since time is a factor.
Starting form 2014, all very young people in Ukraine are educated (better: dis-educated) in the schools, I mean the schools for very young people, under 13-15 years in an atmosphere filled with the poison of nationalism and hate against everything is Russian (language included).
This climate is also what they hear and see on TV and all other Ukraine news outlets.
Adding to all that, with also History taught on a completely distorted way, national fanaticism will put roots in the young minds and hearths.
More time this will last, more deep this poison will permeate the young people.
A full generation of hate poisoned youths will grow till a point of no-return could be reached.
Especially when the “Empire” is actively encouraging all that.
So, time is a factor.
An information strategy to counter all that is urgently needed.
By some accounts, Ukraine has been thus since the last century’s Leninist Revolution. Certainly, all during WWII the reality inside Ukraine has been shaped ideologically by nazism, Ukie nationalism. And from 1991, it has been fed $5 Billion from the State Dept. to twist itself into the war crimes regime we have seen for the last five years.
That is a long stack of lost generations.
The sane ones have left Ukraine behind.
Trapped inside the Ukraine are millions more waiting salvation, unable to mount a rebellion or safe escape.
@Il Discobolo
Yes, there is substance in these fears. The Ukronazis, like most deranged scum wielding political power, know they have to poison the children right from the very start. But I think the danger posed by Nazi Ukraine is subsiding with each passing day. Firstly, this Abomi-Nation is rapidly depopulating — consequently, much of its fanaticized youth just leaves it without having been put to any real use by the Nazi regime. Secondly, the regime itself has already lost the battle it was tasked to win: delivering Crimea to NATO and expelling/killing off Crimea’s inhabitants. This means that Banderastan’s Western sponsors have lost faith in the cesspit which is contemporary Ukraine.
In a way, the LDNR government can claim to be Ukraine’s legitimate government, since Zelenskii’s government originated in an illegal coup. I think politically Russia has won, since public opinion in Ukraine seems to now have an anti-Nazi tilt sympathetic to Russia. I think the question of Russian military action against Ukraine is complicated, because it would probably need to look at the political outcomes with Ukrainian opinion.
“Well, in theory, there would have been the Minsk Agreement solution. The Novorussians would not like it, but Russia could probably impose it upon them. Russia herself sure could live with such an outcome (no, Russia has absolutely no need of any additional territories, especially devastated ones!). But since the Ukronazis are too ideological and delusional to ever accept that option, then there is an obvious Plan B: Russia unilaterally recognizes the LDNR Republics who then vote to join the Russian Federation..”
This can be presented as the Texas option. This is what the United States did in 1836. The United States urged Texas to become independent from Mexico and later, when Texas chose to join the United States in 1846 and Mexico opposed, the United States defeated Mexico and stayed with half of its territory.
How does the approaching completion of Nord2 and the potential running out of the Ukie gas pipe contract effect the situation for Zelenskii and the oligarchs over the next 12 to 24 months?
The loss of income for Ukraine from the gas transfer is about 2% of GDP. This sum is significant but not enough to be a lethal blow.
The affect of this will first fall more on Zelenskii than the oligarchs because it will be Zelenskii that has to try and balance the books with this shortfall.
Presently Ukraine and Russia are oligarch paradise because both countries have the same flat tax rate of 13% and both have low wage economies, Ukraine being the more favourable. 13% flat rate is very high for the poor and very low for the rich compared to most Western economies. So Zelenskii has room to move there, he could raise taxes on the very high earners and easily make up the difference, but traditionally it has been left for the low paid workers to pay the bill. We will soon see whose side Zelenskii is really on.
”Some fine specimens of ’ochlocrats’ ”
Especially the guy wearing the fur cap. Is he the ’intellectual’ among these slobs?
Ukraine is now just a third world failed state.
Let the US and the EU have this basket case if they want it.
And let them pay for it.
The old GDR reconstruction bankrupted Germany.
Let them sink trillions into this bottomless pit if they want to.
The Ukies thought the streets of the EU were paved with gold.
Maybe they should have asked the Greeks about that first.
What I can’t understand about the Galicians, is how they were never forced out of their homelands like the Jews were by the Romans and Assyrians. They look inbred ffs.
I can recall an article written by an American about them long before 2014, in which he questioned the sanity of the EU if they were to ever allow them to work in the EU, as he called them the worlds greatest cut-throats.
What these animals did to their neighbours when the Nazis turned up in 1941 was despicable. Odessa in 2014 show these animals have not changed their MO.
I can never understand why Stalin let any of them live within the jurisdiction of the Soviet Union, or even just live.
Stalin did go after these scum until his death in 1953. By then, the region had been more or less pacified. As Ukraine is depopulating, Russia should settle her territory by Russians with a view to smash and grab Galicia as ”due payback”.
The next big foreseeable event affecting Ukraine will be the completion of Nord Stream 2. Ukraine stands to lose billions in transit fees once it is bypassed.
Never fear, however. The Danish government is doing its best to thwart the project.
••••••••••••••••••••
Russia could miss the deadline to begin pumping gas to Europe through the controversial Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline, unless Denmark approves construction in its waters in the next few weeks.
The EUR 9.5 bln link that will carry gas from Kremlin-controlled Gazprom to Germany has received authorization from several of the Baltic Sea nations whose waters it will cross, but not Denmark. Permit applications with the Danish Energy Agency for two different proposed routes have been pending for months, throwing the planned year-end launch date into doubt, according to Financial Times.
“If we do not get approval from the Danish in the next few weeks then we will not make the deadline,” a senior official close to Nord Stream 2 told the Financial Times. A second source close to the project said the next month would be critical. “It is almost August and that creates concern if not panic,” the person said.
Any delay would be another blow for a project designed to double the capacity of the first Nord Stream pipeline, fully launched in 2012. Nord Stream 2 is designed to allow Gazprom to reroute the bulk of the gas volumes so far running through Ukraine. The launch of the pipeline was due to coincide with the expiration of an existing gas transit contract through Ukraine on December 31.
However, Poland and the Baltic states have sought to block construction of the export pipeline, saying it will increase Europe’s reliance on Russia, while President Donald’s Trump administration in Washington has threatened to sanction the project. Moscow insists the link it is a purely economic venture.
Alexei Miller, Gazprom chief executive, said last month that the 130km Danish leg of the pipeline would take a maximum of five weeks to complete.
But experts say that testing and filling the pipeline would lengthen the process.
Gazprom had been pumping record volumes of gas into underground storage tanks in Europe, which signaled that the company would enter the peak demand period without either the Ukraine transit route or Nord Stream 2.
@Woog. Looks like Denmark is about to copy Ukraine and lose transit fees. Gazprom begins to re-route Nord Stream 2 outside Danish territorial waters. Radikale party denounces Russian blackmail. Danish parliament split.
https://newsbeezer.com/ukraineeng/nord-stream-2-is-being-built-to-bypass-the-waters-of-denmark/
The Saker is correct that reality and pragmatism are essential ‘when trying to figure out what is going on and what might happen next.’ It is a hard calculation to make in a world increasingly chaotic and dark. The Minsk Accord is probably the only glimmer of light for Ukraine, but then all the lights – across the world – are going out.
https://www.ghostsofhistory.wordpress.com/
”First, any premature recognition would further fuel the western fairy-tale about ’Russia’ having ’invaded’ the Ukraine to grab land. If the AngloZionists did not shy away from making such claims while Russian forces were still in their barracks, you could imagine the hysterical shrieks we would have heard from the ’collective West’ if Russia indeed had decided to move her forces into the Donbass to stop the Ukronazi aggression!”
The West keeps throwing endless tantrums about hoaxes and false flags, blaming these on Russia, so I think the above ’point’ is just plain ludicrous. Ergo: Let the West enjoy some real Russian action! Zionazi fury makes for top class entertainment when the pain and anger are genuine as in the case of that good ol’ ”Russian illegal annexation of Crimea”, LOL.
FB wrote:
“The big picture is that all of Eastern Europe is waking up to the fact that the yellow brick road promised by the west is nothing but bullshit…they have seen their domestic industry dismantled and replaced by German imports. The result is McJobs for the people, same as the under-strata in the US. Job security is non-existent…
The people now realize they’ve been fooled. This goes for East Germany also…”
I respond:
The above is a nice summary why the EU even exists. The EU was originally created to contain Germany and to keep it from becoming a threat to other European countries. Germany may have lost WW 2, but the German elites have effectively used EU legislation and EU institutions to destroy all of the domestic industries of the countries it had once invaded 77 years earlier. And of course German elites have no “need” to annex a neighboring European country if they can extract its wealth through peaceful means.
Does anyone else notice the irony?
In the case of the Ukrainians, their domestic industry is being dismantled and replaced by German imports and the Ukraine does not even have to join the EU!
”In the case of the Ukrainians, their domestic industry is being dismantled and replaced by German imports and the Ukraine does not even have to join the EU!”
And that’s precisely what infuriates the Abomi-Nation of ”Ukraine” — it wants to ”belong to Europe” (with ”Europe” understood as synonymous with the You’re_a_peon Union). I understand the grief of ”Ukraine” — dismissed and ditched despite an exciting flirtation with most of the West’s truly hardcore reactionaries in 2013 – 2014 after failing them badly. For all the Ukros’ Russophobia, Russia wasn’t hurt the least.
The Poles, for their part, were allowed into EU and NATO. The Ukros lost Crimea; will they also lose Lvov? History is certainly not on the side of a dying, rotting corpse.
“Simply put, you cannot claim to be the descended of the 200’000 year old “Ancient Ukrs” who built the pyramids, who dug the Black Sea, who gave birth to the Aryan civilization and whose language is the basis of Sanskrit”
Do they actually believe that?
If they believe in the Holodomor and in the tender, loving care of George Soros and Angela Merkel; why not? Although the quote included in ruca’s post strikes one mostly as a backhanded compliment, even if taken seriously. Today’s Ukros are not just descended from these sci-fi creatures — the formers’ descent is even more breathtaking.
@Do they actually believe that?
They do. “For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths”.
There can be no democracy when politicians are allowed to lie freely. In today’s west, the one thing for certain about any political campaign is that what the politicians say is completely worthless. There is zero connection between what is said during the campaign and what the politician does after being elected. This makes the votes of the people worthless. The only way that a democracy is anything but a sham would be if each candidate had to lay out a platform/manifesto proposing what they’d do if/when elected, and then they must be forced in some manner to stick with what they promised. A more parliamentary style system seems to be flexible enough, and when a party or politician deviates from his/her campaign manifesto, then it is automatically time for new elections. If the elected officials want to do something different from what they told the people, then they have to go back to the people to get it approved in a new election. Short of anything like that enforced in a political system, elections are silly and meaningless because what is being said is simply meaningless.
Ze has no choice – the population wants peace but the Americans will not allow it. If Ze were to choose pragmatism over ideology, expect one or more of the following:
1. Assassination (unlikely, except as a last resort)
2. The IMF to suddenly express dissatisfaction with Ukraine’s anticorruption efforts.
3. Maidan 3.0
4. Western prosecutors to take a very keen interest in Mr. Kolomoiskii’s activities.
Found today on internet, sent to me by a friend from lvov who hates the junta even more than I do.
“My soldiers’ efforts are focused on boosting Yavoriv Combat Training Center and training instructors to see the defense capabilities of the Ukrainian Ground Forces getting stronger each day. However from what I’ve seen here, I have to say, our training mission could be extended beyond 2020. It’s not about the training infrastructure and equipment. It’s mainly about Ukrainian soldiers.
Firstly, they don’t speak English. The truth is, they don’t truly care about actually learning it. Given the amount they seem to care about English, my instructors need an extra platoon of interpreters during training. But it doesn’t work in all cases. Thing is, they don’t have a complete understanding of each other! They are kind of a mishmash of different folks being trained here. Some of them speak only Ukrainian or only Russian, whereas others can only speak Romanian or Hungarian.
Secondly, Ukrainian soldiers are lazy slackers who are reluctant to work, they tend to intentionally sabotage any move of their U.S. instructors. Taking into account their greed for money, one has to be aware that Ukrainian military tend to steal and sell anything once they think they have found a good deal.
Thirdly, heavy consumption of alcohol is a common event. All Ukrainian soldiers at Yavoriv Combat Training Center drink dangerously high levels of alcohol. With that in mind every time we had to start training with a BAC test. But that was of little help. Drunk Ukrainian soldiers who even couldn’t stand up straight because of the booze were banned from training. Some of the training activities were either canceled or rescheduled. What struck me most is their commanders’ omission with regard to that improper behavior. Their unwillingness to tackle alcohol abuse suggests that they could be immersed in a culture of booze together with their subordinates.
Fourthly, most of Ukrainians are poorly educated and of low intellect. The easiest tasks seemed challenging for them. It’s no wonder taking into account that the majority of soldiers come from disadvantaged backgrounds whereas the best part of the population left the country for a better life abroad.
What really blew my mind, however, is not-so-casual corruption. Ukrainian soldiers have to pay bribes for any promotion – either to be promoted from private to corporal or from a lower to a higher position. Their superiors would definitely expect a bribe for that. There’s a certain pay rate depending on the rank and position.Ukrainian commanders take bribes without fear of disciplinary action being taken against them. And this is normal behavior throughout the Ukrainian army.”
https://rktracy.blogspot.com/2019/08/ukrainian-soldiers-is-major-weak-spot.html?m=1