Many interesting issues are alluded to in this interview. I wonder if you guys could comment on the following topics:
- The Salafi <-> Muslim Brotherhood relation. Is there a “porous border” between these two groups? Does the MB have a salafist wing?
- The Foreign Ministry <-> Military relation. Is there a real power struggle taking place between these two ministries?
- Assuming that the USA will do all it can to sidetrack, disrupt, undermine, subvert and reverse the Egyptian Revolution (a safe assumption, I would submit), what are the chances of Egypt fully getting out of the US influence in a way similar, but not necessarily identical, to the manner in which Iran got rid of its Yankee overlords?
Any comments/insights would be highly appreciated!
Thanks,
The Saker
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The Salafi <-> Muslim Brotherhood relation. Is there a “porous border” between these two groups? Does the MB have a salafist wing?
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See “Wahhabism” by Hamid Algar for a brief discussion. Note that the word ‘salafi’ is ambiguous. Today in the media it is often used as a synonym for ‘Wahhabi’. However, decades ago it referred to the more progressive Islamic awakening movement in Egypt spearheaded by intellectuals such as Muhammad Abduh and others, who are absolutely not Wahhabi. The MB — a couple of generations after Abduh — was always “salafi” in that sense.
There is a connection between the two senses in that ‘salafi’ means “fundamentalist”, going back to the earliest generations of Islam. But the Egyptian salafis did so critically — e.g. Sayyid Qutb in Social Justice — whereas Wahhabis did so uncritically and for reactionary purposes.
For example, Abduh wrote a commentary on Nahjul Balaghah — compilation of lectures and teachings of Imam Ali –, arguably the most important Shiʿi book after the Qur’an.
Today, however, the term ‘salafi’ has been wholly taken over by Wahhabism, with the mischievous encouragement of the media who play on the ambiguity of the term for its own purposes.
Again, see Algar etc.
Peace
@Ishamid: Note that the word ‘salafi’ is ambiguous
Are you saying that Phyllis Bennis is mistakenly confusing the two terms, or that she is deliberately conflating the two?
Also, I want to ask you what you think about this incident allegedly involving Prof. Algar:
http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/596
http://asbarez.com/39065/uc-berkeley-senate-calls-on-prof-to-apologize/
Of course, even assuming that these events did indeed occur, it does in no way imply that Prof. Algar’s scholarship is not excellent. Yet might it be that this could say something about his ideological biases?
Wahhabiya is to Salafism what Southern Baptism is to Protestantism.
@Guthman: Wahhabiya is to Salafism what Southern Baptism is to Protestantism.
Fair enough. Now how would you differentiate between the two? Besides, there are thousands of Protestant denominations and since they all adhere to sola scriptura combined with the concept of the “universal priesthood of believers” I would argue that each Protestant is his/her “Church”. Would you say that this is also the case with Salafism?
@Ishamid & Guthman: please help me understand the who/why/where/what here:
I read about the Egyptian MB declaring that “Islam is not Bin Laden” (http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2011/05/egyptian-muslim-brotherhoodislam-is-not.html)
and I read about Ismail Haniyeh referring to Bin Laden as a “Holy Warrior” and counting him among the “true believers and the martyrs”.
Should I understand that the former were speaking as Salafis and the latter as Wahabi? But then I was also under the impression that the Egyptian MB had very close ties to Hamas.
So I remain baffled and confused: how to Salafis and Wahabis view each other and how, in turn, do they view Bin Laden and his followers?
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Are you saying that Phyllis Bennis is mistakenly confusing the two terms, or that she is deliberately conflating the two?
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I watched half the interview … She is clearly using salafist in the current sense, i.e., Wahhabi.
About Algar, I would need to ask him myself about this alleged incident. But the way it is presented sounds quite out of character for this Sufi/Shiʿi scholar. If the charge is based on a real event — probably so — I suspect Algar’s statements were taken grossly out of context. He has a very British-style wit and was probably responding sarcastically to some provocation.
But again, I would have to ask him myself. Given his support of Iran and Khomeini I suspect more would have come of this if there had been any meat to it.
Peace
good point about Egypt following Turkey’s lead in regional affairs. but the young MB are not ‘young Turks’. the latter were secular/ atheist and when they came to power in the 1920s tried to dismantle Islam.
1. The Salafi <-> Muslim Brotherhood relation.
-ishamid’s comment is good. the salafis are not the problem (tho copts and the egyptian elite would have you believe otherwise). sure there are wahhabi-style extremists (thanks to saudi/US) but they are few, and of course are hyped in the secular media
2. The Foreign Ministry <-> Military relation.
-it’s not clear what’s going on within the military establishment, but they are not pro-israel. US pressure will slow down the process of returning to a principled regional policy.
3. what are the chances of Egypt fully getting out of the US influence a la iran?
good question. i’m pessimistic at this point. if someone like moussa becomes president i will be very pessimistic. but it’s looking like he’s losing steam.
the big question is – will the leading leftist presidential candidate establish a good relationship with the MB?
there is lots of hostility towards the MB now (jealousy, really). it will take a very farsighted person to overcome this.
elbaradei is the liberal who might be able to reach out, but he is wedded to a benign neoliberal order. the rest of the political scene is too chaotic at this point to make any predictions.
@Ishamid:She is clearly using salafist in the current sense, i.e., Wahhabi
Ok, in that case this means that she is alluding to what I would call a “porous border” between the Egyptian MB and the Wahabis. Is that the case?
Also, could you explain to me how a person like Haniyeh can seriously refer to Bin Laden as a “Holy Warrior” and count him among the “true believers and the martyrs”.
Thanks!
@eric: there is lots of hostility towards the MB now (jealousy, really). it will take a very farsighted person to overcome this.
Well, in my case I have to admit that I am extremely suspicious of any form of Sunni militant Islam. Yet I spend the evening yesterady having dinner with two Palestinians born in Jerusalem, one an Orthodox Christian and one a very secularized person nominally a Muslim who both were telling me that in their opinion both Hamas and the MB are really what they called “socialist” and “communist”, meaning socially progressive movements. They were insisting that the bulk of the people in Hamas and the MB were not at all crazed Wahabis. When I asked them about Haniyeh’s bizarre remark about OBL, they were at a loss. One of them said that maybe Haniyeh had spoken in broken English or that it was a mis-translation of his words. According to them, most of the Hamas leaders are well educated and not crazy at all. It was interesting for me to hear these two clearly not Hamas people saying that.
I am trying to keep an open mind, and I am willing to set my “anti-Sunni islamists” biases aside to look at each case as objectively as I can, but its going to be awfully hard for me to accept that Sunni Islamism is not a natural breeding ground for Wahabism.
But hey, I am a slow thinker (8 years for figure out 9/11!) so please do not expect me to simply gracefully yield without a lot of facts and logical analysis to make me do so :-)
Cheers!
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Should I understand that the former were speaking as Salafis and the latter as Wahabi? But then I was also under the impression that the Egyptian MB had very close ties to Hamas.
So I remain baffled and confused: how to Salafis and Wahabis view each other and how, in turn, do they view Bin Laden and his followers?
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Simple answer: It’s somewhat complicated. Although you will probably roll your eyes, the situation in Gaza is so atrocious that the radicalization of significant segments of the population so as to be influenced by Wahhabist/OBL extremism is an important factor. I think Haniyah was speaking more as a politician needing to keep these radical elements under control in Gaza rather than out of conviction.
The statement of Khaled Meshaal — the actual leader of Hamas — is probably the official Hamas position: Hamas opposes al-Qaeda’s anarchist ideology, but the way OBL was executed and dumped at sea was wrong and offensive to Muslims.
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its going to be awfully hard for me to accept that Sunni Islamism is not a natural breeding ground for Wahabism.
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Did you know that, up to recent times, Wahhabis were not considered to even be Sunni? Without Saudi/imperialist money/dirty-tricks this would not be a issue.
Peace
@Ishamid: Wahhabis were not considered to even be Sunni?
By whom? How would you classify the Wahabis then? Would you even consider them as Muslims then?
Sorry if I am being somewhat anal retentive about this, but unless I get these categories straight I will continue going in circles on this topic.
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By whom?
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By Sunnis in general, particularly Ottoman scholars and other 20th century Sunnis as well.
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How would you classify the Wahabis then?
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They are an extremist offshoot of Hanbali Sunni Islam, and the Hanbali school was always very marginal before Wahhabism came along.
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Would you even consider them as Muslims then?
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They are Muslim. Someone asked Imam Ali (S) the same question about the Khawarij, an early prototype for Wahhabis:
“Are they non-Muslim?”
“No, they are Muslim.”
“Are they hypocrites?”
“No, they are sincere in their beliefs.”
“Then what are they?”
“They are the Maariquun [aimless flyers]. They fly from the Way of God the way an arrow flys when shot aimlessly from a bow”
According to the classification of Imam Ali (S), the Wahhabis are the latest instantiation of the Maariquun.
Loosely: They are fanatics. And you can find Christian Maariquun, Jewish Maariquun, Capitalist Maariquun, Tea-Party Maariquun etc. Fanaticism can be found everywhere, and when funded/sponsored they can wreck real havoc.
Peace
@Ishamid: yet again you have given me a very interesting answer which I need to take time and think about carefully. Thank you *very* much for that!
Salafi and Wahhabism are both linked to Islamic terrorism.
Jordan cleric Abu Qatada protected by MI6 lead a Salafi group in Algeria and was part of Bin Ladin’s Islamic council.
The Muslim Brotherhood who has a long standing with foreign intelligence especially Britain and jihadism with its being known terrorist engaged in foreign US/British proxy foreign wars.
Atta and Sheikh Omar Bakri were/are direct intelligence assets with Bakri’s Al-Muhajirouns still being used today against Russia under a different name and Al-Zawahiri help coordinate Bin Ladins operations in the Balkans and North Caucasus.
All three were recruited and affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood.
Now we have this spontaneous “revolution” in Egypt where the MB the only real organised political force will either come to power or representation in government and military like never before.
Fact of the matter is like every other country when Muslims come to power there is oppression of their Christian and non-Muslim minorities whether it be the genocide of Orthodox Christian Russians and Serbians, Christians in Iraq and now Egypt and murders against Buddhists in Southern Thailand.
@VINEYARDSAKER
”@Ishamid: yet again you have given me a very interesting answer which I need to take time and think about carefully. Thank you *very* much for that!”
Thinking about converting and formerly becoming a Muslim?
I think you should go for it.
Les Salafistes sont plutot de descendance/mouvance algerienne, avec des tendances derivees du sufisme je dirais :D
Look for the word “Khaled Kelkan” an algerian salafist that got his ass kicked in France in the 90s.
@Snoopy: tu te bases sur quoi pour dire ca? J’ai toujours eu l’impression que les salafistes et les sufis étaient au antipodes les uns des autres, non? Tu pourrais préciser ta pensée?
a+ l’ami :-)