First, the disclaimers: no, I am not naive enough to believe that it is possible to make a truly representative survey in the Nazi-occupied Ukraine. Yes, I do understand that each article, survey or opinion piece published in the Ukraine has been paid for by some interest group. And no, I do not believe that the people living under the Nazi junta are given enough information to make up their own opinion about these topics. But still, I think that even with all these caveats the following survey is fascinating.
The survey was made by the Ukrainian based Center for Sociological Studies. The survey itself is entitled “The results of the survey “Socio-political orientation of citizens“. The full survey can be seen here in Ukrainian:
http://www.sofia.com.ua/page167.html
and here in machine-translated English:
There are many interesting responses in this survey, but here are the most interesting ones (I have bolded out in red some of the most interesting figures)
Generally speaking, do you think that things in Ukraine are in the right or wrong direction?
| Definitely in the right direction |
4.1 |
| Rather in the right direction |
21.2 |
| Rather in the wrong direction |
31.4 |
| Definitely in the wrong direction |
34.6 |
| Do not know / do not know |
8.7 |
In your opinion, to what extent the President and government to blame for the economic problems that the country is going through?
| Fully to blame |
40.4 |
| Partly to blame |
47.9 |
| Not not blame |
5.6 |
| Hard to say |
6.1 |
In your opinion, which tasks should be a priority for the president and the government?
| Improving the economic situation and job creation |
15.6 |
| Uniting the country, overcoming contradictions, |
6.0 |
| Stopping the war in Donbass |
48.5 |
| Preventing rising prices |
8.9 |
| Corruption Eradication |
7.8 |
| Normalization of relations with Russia |
1.6 |
| European integration, EU membership |
3.3 |
| Increasing social benefits and guarantees |
3.6 |
| Back Crimea to Ukraine |
0.7 |
| Expanding the powers of local government, decentralization of power |
0.6 |
| Ensuring energy independence of Ukraine |
0.6 |
| Cutting taxes |
0.5 |
| Other |
0.2 |
| Nothing indicated |
0.3 |
| Hard to say |
1.8 |
| The government is doing everything in its power to end the conflict |
12.2 |
| The government is doing something, but this is not enough |
48.7 |
| The government practically does nothing to end the war |
33.5 |
| Hard to say |
5.6 |
Some believe that is most important to stop the war in Donbas, even if you have to give up the occupied territories. Others believe that Ukraine should continue to fight until they establish control over all occupied territories. Which view is closer to you?
| The main thing – to stop the war in Donbas, even if you have to give up the occupied territories |
61.8 |
| Ukraine should continue to fight until they establish control over all occupied territories |
22.9 |
| Hard to say |
15.3 |
In your opinion, in what steps can go to stop the war in Donbas and normalize relations with Russia?
|
Fully acceptable |
Rather acceptable |
Rather not acceptable |
It is not acceptable |
Hard to say |
|
| Officially neutral status of Ukraine confirm and declare that it will not join NATO |
14.3 |
21.2 |
18.6 |
32.8 |
13.1 |
| View agreement with the EU on association and free trade zone |
12.7 |
23.8 |
16.0 |
31.9 |
15.6 |
| Embed Ukraine federal structure and expand the powers of regional authorities |
8.2 |
19.7 |
17.4 |
36.6 |
18.1 |
| Provide Russian language official status in Ukraine |
10.0 |
19.9 |
17.2 |
42.5 |
10.4 |
| Officially recognize the Crimea to the Russian Federation |
3.0 |
8.1 |
16.2 |
58.7 |
14.0 |
| Recognize the independence of the DNR and LNR |
4.3 |
8.4 |
17.1 |
56.5 |
13.7 |
To sum thing up:
Even though a strong majority (58.7%) of Ukrainians do not accept the secession of Crimea or the independence of the DNR/LNR (56.5%), an even bigger majority (61.8%) is willing to give up part (or all?) of the Donbass in order to achieve piece.
Furthermore, in spite of the crippling economic crisis, a very strong relative majority of Ukrainians (48.5%) believe that achieving peace should be the top priority of the Ukraine and the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians believe that the government does too little (48.7) or even nothing (33.5%) to end the war.
Please remember that these are public opinion figure without the Donbass and without Crimea! In fact, 81.9% of the respondents referred to their nationality as “Ukrainian” and only 26.6% said that they spoke only Russian at home.
In other words, the vast majority of Ukrainians want peace above all else, and the vast majority of the Ukrainians believe that they are not getting it primarily due to the fault of the junta in power. Add to that the whopping 88.3% (40.4%+47.9%) who also believe that the economic mess is also the responsibility of the regime and you will get a sense of how truly unpopular the junta really is!
It is particularly interesting to contrast these results with the result of similar surveys in Russia where well over 80% of respondents consistently fully support President Putin and the political course of Russia.
So who do you think is winning this one?
The Saker
Well this isn’t good news at all and I guess victoria nuland with have to return to hand out cookies. Then an all out rebranding campaign by some genius in state department. Then hand out rose colored glasses to citizens in the Ukraine.
Hell I feel better already;)
Sad:(
In the Real Evil Empire’s satrapies the opinions of the serfs have NO weight. The desires of the ruling, moneyed, elites decide every situation. They just love fascism (corporatism plus state power)and always have done so.
Yip, who wants to be cannon fodder ? Only those who do the sending, of course, as they will not send themselves or their close ones!
this is one of the more hopeful things I’ve seen out of Ukraine, even if the numbers are skewed. Shows that support for the ongoing war is minimal. Maybe there is hope.
Forgot to mention, one question not asked relates to presence of foreign troops in Ukraine, US,Canada, Poland etc including possibility of Chechen and IS personnel. why was that not asked?
They didn’t poll the CIA Station Chief or the US Ambassador. They get 50 million votes each.
There will be no end to the war, no end to the corruption.
There is enormous room for more pain and suffering among the Ukrainians. They will get it.
We see the full suppression of dissent in every major city.
We see very little guerrilla action.
There hasn’t even been an attempt to kill any of these junta criminals.
Ukraine is far from changing its course because of the will of the people.
It is much more likely that the militia could convince the regular military to join them in cleansing Kiev.
It will take an army to chase out the US. Until that time, Ukraine will devolve.
Here is a promotional video of the Azov battalion on parade in Mariupol. This looks eerily similar to the parade of ISIS fighters in Toyotas, except these are Mitsubishi trucks (about 30 secs in). I wonder how bankrupt Ukraine managed to buy a fleet of such trucks. Maybe they had a helping hand (Soros? Kolomoisky?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMRwhePWbUs
This parade has no emotion. The trucks can be expensive but those inside are only psychopaths cheap bought to kill and they do not have neither emotions, nor honor or courage. They do not reach Mozgovoi, Givi or Motorola to the shoe sole.
Spectators and those mad women filming their monstruous honeymoons, rabble.
Agreed – there is little support from other in contrast to Novorossia. My hypothesis is that it appears to be the new color coded approach to regime change. Black = ISIS, yellow = Azov (highly appropriate), What about Greece? Any bets? Blue?
Maybne that was the first thing the Azovs were able to order and buy these material after the 5Bln USD present to please do start a war and please do kill your own citizens and please much much chaos and destruction. (So we can take over the country and call it “Nulandastan”. Amen.
Like ISIS? Well, I think this stinking war is very bad for the good willing people of Ukraine, DNR and LNR, it is a civil war. Created by Nuland and her Clique and EU.
What a mess. And this all for their own greed and world hegemony philosophy.
Thank heavens there is Russia.
I don’t think there’s any country on this planet [and elsewhere], where ordinary people, like you and me, want war or crave for the blood and death of others.
Shouldn’t we start wondering then, why there’s been this much bloodshed, since the dawn of mankind?
It is because the psychopaths love to kill, and under capitalism and the global hegemony of ‘Western moral values’, the psychopaths are in total control. We will drown in blood until they are removed from power, everywhere and forever.
I don’t think there’s any country on this planet [and elsewhere], where ordinary people, like you and me, want war or crave for the blood and death of others.
I TOTALLY agree. There is typically a 10%-15% of creeps who stir up trouble and thrive on violence, never the majority (at least to my knowledge). Most people want peace. The sad thing is that the minority of creeps is much more driven than we are, at least most of the time.
Yep – but driven by what? Or, rather, ” who “?
Satan.
The created reality we live within was constructed to imprison us, humanity is sick, it has been infected by a baroque and inhuman intelligence. It may be true that the majority wishes only for peace, but this is a very cursory observation, strife does not always manifest as overt violence, but is found in the home as deceit, jealousy, anger, and often manifests as petty drama’s which in themselves cause a general unease, and lack of peace and harmony. To suggest that the majority wants peace is to overlook the day to day drama’s and personal conflicts that occur everywhere in homes around the world, where spousal and child abuse is far too common, where financial stress causes emotional pain, and even genuinely good and humble people are confused and confounded by the chaos around them.
The situation of humanity is unnatural, we are not in fact realized human beings in any collective sense, we are fumbling through time, from one misery and destruction to another, where the hope of progress always meets the reality of deception and unjust law. Is the majority peaceful? I wish for that to be true, but even in the act of passivity in the face of injustice there is a violence against our souls.
Is the world a better place now than 2000 years ago? Is it more humane? Is it more dangerous? Has humanity evolved socially? I do wonder at these questions, and can’t help but feel that our path to truth has been hijacked.
Churches fight among themselves, freedom fighters fight among themselves, volunteers fight among themselves, politicians fight among themselves, brother fights brother, sister fights sister…
Until we can collectively awaken to our innate sense of justice, and find ourselves in total control of our own defects, as exampled in the behaviours of our highest human examples, we will continue along the path of strife, as lemmings led to slaughter, forever engaged in a death dance in the struggles set forth for us by a controlling hierarchy who view us as unworthy of anything other than a life of servitude.
Angelo, an interesting and thoughtful comment. Thanks.
Yep, as W.B.Yeats said in the Second Coming
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.[
Or:
The nation’s hoop is broken and scattered.
There is no center any longer
And the sacred tree is dead.
Soul mates.
Even the gyre is a hoop.
Totally agree with The Saker here. Even Americans (yes, Americans, America haters) never never want to go to war. They were strongly opposed to both world wars. It was only Yellow Journalism that ever duped them into war euphoria. And false flags. They got fooled every time. Ordinary Americans did not even genocide the Native Americans. That dirty job was done by the U.S. Cavalry – that is to say, it was a government program. Gobments are the problem, not ordinary people, and ordinary people are far from perfect.
Ludicrous, the government cannot hold if the people do not invest their trust.
Ever play cowboys and indians? The meme was prevalent for a long time.
Ever hear of tyranny?
Daniel Rich, Isn’t silly to make war on nations when it’s just a tiny percent at the top who want it?
And deserve it.
Quite correct. However, Pindostan is, as we all know, inhabited by exceptional and indespensable — rather than ordinary — people. Absent humbling lessons on par with the German Nazi rabble seeing the Red Army conquering Berlin, the Pindos will staunchly support war anytime, anywhere abroad on whatever imbecilic pretexts, with or without any UN rubber stamp of approval, period.
Daniel Rich: “I don’t think there’s any country on this planet [and elsewhere], where ordinary people, like you and me, want war or crave for the blood and death of others.”
— You are either intentionally deluding yourself or are not familiar with history at all. My guess is both. Yes, ordinary people crave for war. And blood. And pillage. If you want the latest and closest example: Serbs in 1991. And by that I mean the entire Serbian civilian population in, for example, Croatia.
I really dislike the glorification of “average man” and demonization of “ruling elites”. It usually indicates the person has serious personality issues and wants to be seen as a white knight opposing black knights in power, but the truth is that average men are no knights, they are filthy peasants who are worse than the rulling elites. The proof of that is a democratic process itself, which consists of filthy peasants recognizing the elites as their superiors. I know very well how peasants (or “ordinary people” as you call them) think, and the only difference between them and the rulling elites is that ordinary people are less able, less smart, less daring. Ordinary people have no moral highground whatsoever. Those who are more moral than the rulling elites are those who don’t vote for malicious politicians. And if majority of the population votes over and over for corrupt parties and their members, then these votes have no moral highground. None.
Wow! You are very well informed about bad Serbs doing nasty things just for a fun. And what You do suggest to do with us, cruel serbian savages? If You do not know than just ask people from Split who know how to make soccer field prettier with some WWII symbols. Maybe You´ll make good friends;-)
you might be interested to know that even Americans have always voted for presidential candidates who promised to keep them out of war. They just always forget that politicians are liars.
If Americans voted for candidates who are for peace then neither Bush nor Obama would get a second term. Nor would people like McCain get nearly half of the votes. Nor would there be so many (almost all) Senators who are pro-war. Which means that the statement “Americans choose peace” is pure propaganda. If you check the polls (Iraq for example) you’ll see that you can get most Americans to be pro-war within a short period of time, and the rest of the time they simply don’t care which country gets pillages as long as they get the loot. They want to enjoy the benefits of war while being oblivious about it. That’s why people used to move to America. Not because they wanted peace but because they wanted prosperity and didn’t care how it was achieved. If you want peace you don’t go to a country that’s eternally at war with someone.
So you think Romney was less of a warmonger than Obama? And you don’t think that elections are stolen?
Actually, the U.S. was not eternally at war with every former British and European colony until after WW II when they took over the mantle of the British Empire, upon which the sun still never sets. Same Blue Water protection racket, different navy.
@Dongfeng
You forgot to add that before this conflict in former Yougoslavia has exploded, Serbia,Croatia,Macedonia and the rest of the teritories were floded by the CIA agents working like nuts to create and strenghten the hatred against each other even they were these nationalities were intermaried and they were drinking coffee together as a good neighbors and from one day to another they started to hate each other!!!!!!!. Divide and conquer is the correct description and you as a naive swaloved this discusting techniques and started to kill each other for the benefits of Mrs. Albright and the gang.
Very sad, but we can’t return back the clock of the innocent lives lost in this absolutely blody non sense war.
There seem to me to be all too many war lovers around. Check out Slavyangrad.org.
Although I must say they are not draft age.
ZH (not too confident in them) says now here, well after midnight Sunday Athens, that the latest act/play/scene in this long-running drama now says “no deal”.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-14/last-try-greek-bailout-talks-end-without-deal
So, looks like the Greeks picked a helluva week to run out of magic Grecian Formula:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeI5ke0BENw
Anonymous, Tsipras meets w Putin in about a week. If Tsipras is really a leader I haven’t yet seen any indication of it. Below is from World Socialist & they tend to be a little dramatic:
6/13/15 http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/06/13/pers-j13.html EU demanding that Greece repay its debts and further slash pensions as a precondition for new loans. They have replied to Syriza’s brief delay in repaying 300 million euros by threatening to cut off credit to Greece and push its state and financial system into bankruptcy. This could force Greece to reintroduce its own national currency to avert a collapse of its banks and even set into motion the dissolution of the euro currency and the EU itself.
[I personally doubt we’ll see so much drama.]
Penelope,
Tsipras is simply pleading to — and indeed grovelling before — the Eurocretins who are fleecing his country. Tsipras’s performance confirms he’s 100% spineless, clueless, useless as far as the burning issues of anti-austerity and anti-imperialism are concerned. If Tsipras had any stature to speak of, he would simply repeat Victoria Nuland’s beautiful pronunciamento and then turn to Russia without any apologies whatsoever. The only forces in Greek politics that seem to understand the obvious, or at least not pretending ignorance, are the Communists (KKE) and the Nazis (Golden Dawn).
Most likely, Tsipras and his government will behave just like the despicable Bulgarian government did with regard to SouthStream: If anything would benefit Greece along with benefiting Russia, suck up to your Western overlords at the expense of the population by trashing the opportunity deliberately.
It will be KKE(commies) and Golden Dawn who will resolve this not in -VELVET REVOLUTION- in street of Athens….
“…The main thing – to stop the war in Donbas, even if you have to give up the occupied territories =61.8%..”
“…Recognize the independence of the DNR and LNR: not acceptable 56.5%…”
This is a survey on bipolarity…
Not necessarily. There could be scenario where they gave up fighting for Donbass but never officially recognized it. Sort of like with South Ossetia and Abkhazia for all those years before Misha launched the war of ’08.
Josh yes this can be a way of conducting policy.
But this is done by governments, when they cannot achieve a goal.
So they continue the rhetoric, and at the same time put the goal on “ice”.
This on the other hand, is a public survey. Simple people cannot want something, and at the same time want to put the very same thing on ice.
Hence the bipolarity.
Or the set up.
Back Crimea to Ukraine – 0.7
The best part of this survey :)
Porky and Yat will never allow a public referendum on the war in Donbass…they know well how people think. Still it is good to know, and things may get worse, and public opinion change for the worse. There was an interesting article on Fort Russ on “disabled Ukraine” in which it looks like the gov. does not care at all about disabled soldiers and their families, they do not even where to find a wheelchair. The time will come when ” a French revolution will start”. But could someone explain to me why President Putin continues giving them gas?
@ Isammart,
Q; But could someone explain to me why President Putin continues giving them gas?
R; If you firmly believe such an act will actually
hearthurt those 2 tribesmen, then by all means, go ahead.My bet would be on ordinary Ukrainians suffering the hardest/most and those 2 clowns not suffering at all.
Aside from compassion there is:
‘You see — we told you Russia is our enemy, and now they have cut off your gas and that proves it’.
Dear Saker
F. William Engdahl’s article “An American Oligarch‘s Dirty Tale of Corruption” is worth reading.
…”The hacker group CyberBerkut has published online letters allegedly written by Soros that reveal him not only as puppet master of the US-backed Ukraine regime……..”
First appeared: http://journal-neo.org/2015/06/12/an-american-oligarch-s-dirty-tale-of-corruption/
Getting organized….
http://fortruss.blogspot.com/2015/06/ukrainian-communists-announced-creation.html
Ukrainian Communists Announced the Creation of the “United Left Opposition”
June 14, 2015
– Rusvesna – translated by Joaquin Flores
The Communist Party (Petro Symonenko), Progressive Socialist Party (Natalia Vitrenko), the Worker’s Party (Svyatoslav Bondarchuk), Leninsky Komsomol of Ukraine, and the Union of Soviet officers signed an agreement to merge.
[…]
HI Blue, boy, I don’t envy those politicians. brave people. brave Ukrainians…Ukrainians at their best….
That is the way.
Citizens’ platforms from the left have got the mayors of the main Spanish cities after the last municipal elections. Left forces have agreed to have most to govern and leave out the PP, which has panicked mode.
In the next general elections, to La Moncloa!
“Colau mayor opens paralyzing evictions”:
http://www.publico.es/politica/colau-estrena-alcaldia-paralizando-desahucios.html
Yes its an interesting set of numbers. But there is no ability left in the country to organise a counter putsch because every force centre has bee. Stripped of neutrality by the embedding of the oliogarchs and the Nazis. External force and defeat would be only way out of trap. But that doesn’t get to happen because among other things a certain country needs its messiah and have begun looking for a red calf heralding his arrival. And the prince of Magog and the prince of Tubal must be dragged against their will into a fight in Syria. That would be Putin and Shoigu possibly don’t you think. So the wheel of time will just keep grinding away at the grist of mortal life till the alignments firm true. The only defence is honour based in compassion. The people’s of the Donbass will fight on and do so with scant regard to their lives and endure it all another two years-ish. .maybe a few months less…but they are called to this fight from the beginning of time…their sacrifice ordained by the most High…as a sign and portent of what is to come…for they stand against the G7…the Dragon which has 7 crowns…Orantos lives amongst them and Michael stands on their side…hmm
re: “So who do you think is winning this one?”
Whoever has more and better firepower, same as it ever was. Khadaffi had overwhelming support; it didn’t matter.
In addition, countries are changed by active minorities. The Ukraine has had an active 5-10% who hated Russia. Then perhaps 85% who were apathetic or otherwise indifferent. Perhaps 5% who liked Russia, but they did nothing. So the active 5% won. Of course, that 5% got support from oligarchs (who got a lot of their money from Russia) or the West. The apathetic people and, in this case, the apathetic Russian government, get dragged along.
This is a very astute observation. Even those who are not part of the sheeple crowd are often not willing to fight. There has to be a way to create a culture of active “non-sheeple” who are ready to get together and defend their reality.
It may not be sufficient, but that is why you need organizational activity. With the actual population, not just the oligarchs and politicians. There should have been groups promoting studying in Russia, organizing joint ventures/studies/activities with Russian and Ukrainian scholars/businessmen/sportsmen/etc., and an endless list. Just think of all the NGOs and charities. Plenty of people are willing to participate, but not lead or create. The reason the Western NGOs are so dangerous is that they are led and created by the usual Soros/Langley nexus. One imagines that the Kremlin is getting the idea that they need to ban NGOs, which is understandable, but they also need to see the potential good in having the masses get active.
OT
Hey! Need some good news? New mayors in Barcelona & Madrid have broken the austerity mold.
In Barcelona, 41-year old Ada Colau, an active protest leader, has become the city’s first female mayor. She rose to publicity after helping to organize the Platform for People Affected by Mortgages (PAH) movement, in Barcelona in 2009, to defend citizens against evictions caused by the collapse of the Spanish property market.
Her administration will now draft a list of 30 measures aimed at creating jobs and fighting corruption. Along with her colleague in Madrid, Colau announced that she will slash her salary in half.
Madrid: Carmena, a former communist and rights activist, promised to improve the living conditions for the poor, who have been struggling since the 2008 financial crisis. She also echoed the calls of the massive Indignados (Outraged) protest movement that was formed in 2011 to fight corruption, government spending cuts and evictions.
“We are at the service of the citizens of Madrid. We want to govern by listening. We want them to call us by our first names,” Carmena said after being voted in.
Among her chief promises to the electorate are the development of public transport and increased support for poor families
Both Carmena and Colau secured victory during the May 24 local elections with the support of Pomedos, a new pro-worker and anti-establishment party that emerged last year.
Parties born out of the Indignado protest movement now rule five major Spanish cities: Madrid, Valencia, Zaragoza, Cadiz, and Barcelona.
Forgot to get the link; story is on Sott.net
Yes, Penelope, it’s great.
Manuela Carmena goes to his new job as mayor of Madrid by metro
and there are new councilors who come by bicycle, as they have renounced official cars.
The Vladimirvichi duchies of Kiev numbered 10 and today mirroring this in a strange ond poignant way Kiev is divided into 10 administrative districts and so it seems that fate has done this to point out that Kiev has 10 crowns. That Orantos (Orantos BeRegina) was queen of Kiev but she has fled to Donbass leaving behind the 10 crowns which are taken up by what now rules in Kiev. Her own crown is has 12 stars representing the 12 tribes of man…the 12 partitions of the Zodiac.
Saker, Thank you for the poll. Interesting that they are willing to give up territory to stop the war, but not to formally recognize the loss.
When the going gets tough, the royal “we” gets going—clear outta town.
In fact, at least two news reports say Shell already has notified Ukraine that it’s leaving in a formal “notice of withdrawal.”
The decision by the Anglo-Dutch oil major is more bad news for Ukraine, which had hoped that producing its own gas would make it less reliant on energy from its antagonistic neighbor, Russia, and potentially infuse the country’s distressed economy with much needed foreign investment.
As for Shell itself, sources identified by the Financial Times only as “insiders” said the company had concluded that the project wasn’t worth the effort because of the armed conflict and the precipitous drop in energy prices over the past year, which have made the extraction of oil and gas less cost-effective given the expense needed to ensure efficient output from underground shale formations.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-14/low-energy-prices-and-conflict-drive-shell-out-ukrainian-shale
Off topic, but some surreal satire appropriate for our time:
http://holmogor.livejournal.com/6820213.html
Paul ll …. do you read Russian ?
Not really – more like understand the words but not what the writer is trying to say. But there is always this friend to help:
https://translate.yandex.com/
By the way, Colonel Cassad has posted that comic. As he notes, the Kremlin is getting itself into a serious bind because so many just have to laugh, more or less the way it was at the end of Soviet times:
“The most rational as usual at the end. Propaganda associated with Minsk-2 became frankly ridiculous and ludicrous, and in fact breeds decadent and defeatist moods in a running war. In the form in which the “cunning plan” are trying to serve the public, propaganda is not working. As correctly noted author of the comment, the worst thing for any propaganda, it’s over when it starts to laugh. Here the question is not in the content of the opaque state policy, which of course always includes a significant element of state or military secrets, and in the methodology of propaganda, which does not meet the objectives, even camouflage some action and looks helpless and frankly ridiculous. And when people see day after day, for example to reach the promise of Kiev, and the next day the offer to become part of Ukraine, on what other reaction is calculated agitators for Minsk, hard to say. This could work well, a month, well, two, but when trying to prolong this line to the end, the output is a natural reaction related to the complete lack of understanding of what is happening and decadent mood. This is about the same as in the late Soviet Union, when people are overfed monotonous propaganda style “and so come down.” Propaganda detached from reality and become funny.”
I wonder how Ukraine will vote after the next round of warfare?
Since February, their losses have not been too bad. But there will certainly be another clash across the front lines with months of fighting when both sides engage again.
Another 5-10,000 men lost might change those poll numbers quite dramatically.
We thought the winter gas situation and the collapsing economy would have hurt them more.
What seems to be the Ukie discontent is connected to the war itself.
Thus, more war will shorten the conflict of arms and lead to a reasonable resolution. Quite ironic.
Hi Saker ! Are the residents of Kiev controlled Ukraine able to access Internet sites ? If they are, then there’s not much excuse for not having enough info to make a proper decision…? Is there ?
Ministry of Truth shut down 30,000 websites a few months ago. There were also rumours that people have been arrested, charged with separatist sympathies, just for “liking” pro-separatist statements on Facebook. So they need to be careful.
Besides, the mainstream (including TV and the news sites which are not blocked, tell such different story, they have no way of telling which version is right. Nobody can do a site openly comparing the versions, because that opens them up to “separatism” charges.
I forgot about the ministry of truth…how awful. And I wonder if, leaving Ukraine is dangerous too ? I wonder if people have to sneak out of there ?
Cracker of a image!
Dear The Saker,
Interesting survey – though, as you point out, the issues of Crimea and Donbass seem contradictory. On one hand people are willing to give up all of Donbass for peace and yet later state won’t recognise as independent – hmm. Some other interesting results – they don’t want to view the EU Association Agreement – why not? or remain neutral – if they want peace so much?
On another note an article where you get a mention – it refers to your M Hudson article (they describe you a US military analyst) :
http://sputniknews.com/business/20150614/1023351827.html
Rgds,
Veritas
American military analyst, the author of the leading blog covering the Ukraine crisis
Nice !!
Dear The Saker,
I can say for sure, that the “crazies in the basement” are not the ones winning.
Thank you for all you do to bring us first class truthful information and God’s blessings to you and your family always.
Carmel by the Sea
Typical fools. They want the war to stop but they don’t want to make any concessions to stop the war.
A Russian big shot said recently that Evil Empire aka U.S. sets kind of biological laboratories around Rusia as part of conteiment.
Well, that bring to mind a short story by Jack London ” The Unparalleled Invasion”. If you missed it, read it. It’s about China but can be applied to any countru including Russia.
Western partners, meaning mortal enemies, explor any possibilities. They don’t waste time.
Russia better be ready. You’re the hope of the free world. We count on you to protect freedom and peace on planet earth. Bewere of Gringos Asesinos.
European integration, EU membership =3.3%
Interesting statistic; wasn’t that what the MSM told us the Maidan was all about -leaning away from ‘Russian domination and control’ and towards the freedom of the EU and jobs etc.etc.?
It’s higher than the % of Ukrainians who were in the Maidan.
Incidentally, ever notice that the figures for the Maidan participants always include the anti-Maidan?
These are close to the figures obtained a few weeks ago by the Kiev International Institute for Sociology, which I believed I posted here or hereabouts.
Political game, set and match to Putin and Zakharchenko.
It’s peace at any price, so long as Ukraine gets a face saver; that is, de facto independence but not de jure. And this is not a bad idea considering how significant a national humiliation has been to the rise of fascism.
Whatever the outcome, DNR has been pursuing an option that could be supported by a strong majority of Ukrainians without more war. It was the correct line and I hope a few jackals will shut up, go hide in their caves and lick their wounds. (But I won’t hold my breath.)
I recall the Saker outlining the options months ago — no predictions but thinking the de jure option was the best.
I wonder if either of these surveys (the KIIS results took 30 pages) were reported in the west or the West.
I see some “interesting” results from the poll.And can’t give them real credence.On the one hand a huge majority wants the war stopped.But on the other hand they don’t want to do what’s needed to stop it.And in a show of the depth of Western and fascist propaganda over 23 years.The vast majority “says” they don’t care about good relations with Russia.While at the same time saying they also don’t care about the EU.What can we make of all this?
Well here is a possible answer to that.The poll was done by a Ukrainian service.So how safe was it to really tell your feelings to them? Some might say “but they trashed the junta”.True,but everyone does that,on all sides.The key things that would bring a visit by the SBU seems to be,”supporting Russian friendship.wanting to speak legally Russian,wanting Federalism in Ukraine.And wanting to recognize Crimea and Donbass as legally gone.Everyone excepts they are gone now.But legally recognizing that fact, is a different story.So on the results that we see as positive,the poll is probably fairly accurate.But on those that are contradictory and make no sense.I think those we can discount.
Maybe we can start with a personal statement of : I do not agree to war. I do not agree to torture of any kind. I do not agree to theft of my personal power. I do not agree to any form of abuse or theft.
They steal power from us, and have done so for ages. But there is strength in taking back whatever they took before by not agreeing anymore. We are all serfs; I don’t agree to that either. I don’t agree with the state controlling all our options for everything. They can’t take what we decide to not give them. Perhaps Greece will realize how much power they really have in saying no.
I was in a really bad financial situation & kept saying: I don’t agree to being financially tortured. It was very empowering and in less than two years the situation ended to my best good, without attorneys or court. Now I do this all the time to limit the governments power to control my life. And it works.
I also find that the universe rewards obstinacy if it is made in good faith and humility and accords with the Golden Rule. Be very stubborn about doing the right thing and you will be rewarded in an unexpected way. Worked for Gandhi. Putin is really stubborn about international law, so good things will come Russia’s way.
Although a lot of Ukrainians don’t want to cede power to the various regions, I believe they are not facing the reality of the situation. If you look at the election results in Ukraine, prior to the coup, it is very obvious that the east and west of Ukraine want totally different things.
If only the USA would allow peace to prevail, Ukraine could prosper.
The results of the last question seem to be at odds with the results of all the other questions. It would appear that even though Ukrainians want peace…they don’t want the logical steps that would produce peace. This means one of two things. Either a) the last question results have been tampered with, or, b) the people of Ukraine are illogical in their thinking.
The people of Ukraine have been taught about visa free travel, EU benefits and other goodies. And they cant get it because of Russians. They don’t know the real story about things. I would think those in power let the population stay ignorant as well. If you look at Romania, life has not really improved. But a life in Britain as a garbage collector seems to be better than staying in Romania. some of the other countries have lost vast populations due to migration. If life was really better then those Baltic states would not look like a war zone. But Ukraine with almost 50 mil people would devastate the EU as they are as poor as the rest and getting millions of people trying to take what ever jobs they can get would break the EU. The US has 10 mil or so of low paid workers who are illegals. Imagine if another 10 mil suddenly dropped by and stayed for years. They cant even take care of their own homeless which are only a few million. Neither can the EU. Its all smoke and mirrors. No one wants people without money or skills to create rockets or the next facebook.