Dear friends,
I am still sick, so I cannot write much, but I am listening to interviews and reading analytical reports. I have a couple of questions I would love to get answers to:
1) did the Ukie ATC ever explain why MH17 was told to take a route to the north of the normal route and at a lower altitude?
2) does anybody know if the transponder of MH17 continued working up to the moment of impact of the missile which hit it?
3) how are these events seen by the Malaysian media, which side does a majority the Malaysian media blame for what happened?
If you come across anything which could reply to these questions I would be most grateful.
Thanks a lot and kind regards to all,
The Saker
olivegreen:
Actually, the specialists have also been expressing serious doubt it was a BUK in the first place that shot down that plane. But the international community for some reason shows little interest in going to the crash site and recovering fragments of the missile that did it.
You won’t find missile fragments (especially not the missile tail section) at the crash site unless embedded in the plane, which is not how SAM systems work – they cut the plane apart with an outward blast of small projectiles/rods. A commercial airliner takes around 3 minutes to fall 10 km, so it will be at least 20-30 km downrange from impact assuming initial forward speed of 900 km/h. The MH17 strike occured around Yenakiyeve given its course and the crash site in Grabovka. Passenger planes don’t fall straight down out of the sky, and a small missile won’t alter the inertia of a 300 ton plane under power (the videos of the crash show the fuel load going up in flames, so the entire mid-section of the plane stayed together, including wings, cockpit, and fuselage, only the tail being lost.
The “how” of this incident is provided by the Russian Ministry of Defense on July 18 and BUK system technical specifications. BUK’s range is 42 km for a full unit operated with tracking units. With a hit around Yenakiyeve, draw a circle there and query where operating BUK’s were on July 17.
To that Ukrainian Armed Forces BUK were located in range at Avdiivka north of Donetsk and near Soledar/Artemivsk on July 17, with additional units located out of range at Styla south of Donetsk and possibly in range at Zoryane east of Donetsk if the plane was hit near Gorlivka and had a more gradual descent than I suppose above. The BUK in supposed NAF possession filmed running alone south down the road T-05-22 south of Snizhne was a single TELAR unit located at least 45 km from the strike point – i.e. out of firing range – and travelling further out of range while filmed. There is of course no proof that it was even filmed on July 17 or was ever put in operation by NAF. Russian MOD noted BUK units around Donetsk were detected by Russian SIGINT linked as a unit and active radar and targetting command control was run from Styla to coordinate their fire activity, with the likely culprit firing unit at Avdiivka. Avdiivka is also located such that if one wanted to truck out an offending BUK unit after incident, it would pass through Krasnoarmiisk on the M04, where the short video of the BUK missing a missile that Ukrainian SBU has been touting is said to have been filmed.
The Black Box data will be interesting as it will tell where the plane’s descent started and thus where it was hit. Once public the Snizhne fairy tale will probably quickly fall apart, and we will proably start hearing that the shot was made from the A-1402 base just south of Donetsk Airport where the NAF supposedly captured BUK systems, or else the range of the BUK system reported in the press will magically increase beyond 42 km. This is also the reason for the initial Russian hesitancy. It is possible a missile launch from A-1402 could be easily mistaken for a missile launch from Avdiivka, less than 5 miles away. Once the Russian military could confirm the truth from data, Putin, Lavrov, and others could confidently speak.
Russian MOD assertions:
http://rmsmcblog.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/russia-confirms-operation-of-ukrainian-long-range-defense-systems-on-day-of-mh17-crash/
Combined with their confident 10 questions to Ukraine, I’d say the Russians are ready to sit back and let this all play out in their favor.
I said several weeks ago to the doubters, with all due respect, this is going to be Putin’s finest hour.
Pardon me if this has already been reported – there is a pertinent analysis to your questions, Saker, at:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/07/mystery-flight-mh17-motives-missiles-flight-plans-media.html#comment-2272725
I have no doubt that the truth is on the side of Russia. I mean 100% on the side of Russia.
At this point, I’m just praying that the Russian leadership is strong enough, competent enough and brave enough to stand up to the most evil and cunning empire in existence.
I think, arguing and trying to prove the truth is a waste of time and energy. The good, awakened people of the world know where the danger to humanity is coming from.
The US wants Russia to be bogged down and on the defensive with this one. Those who committed this crime know who they’re and they know who isn’t. They have all their corporate media blasting the world 24/7 with lies and obfuscations. Obviously, they will not stop, no matter what, until their teeth are pulled out, their heads are chopped off, their limbs are separated, drenched in garlic and burned.
The more they push on Russia, the more Russia should push back.
Putin and Russia people, please kill this serpent and free the world.
This SQ flight flew much further north than usual on the 17th.
http://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/SIA319/history/20140717/1940Z/EGLL/WSSS
Saker,
Just as an example, this SQ flight was much further north than usual on the 17th
http://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/SIA319/history/20140717/1940Z/EGLL/WSSS
http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/ukraine-responsible-for-airspace-safety-iata-20140720-zuzmp.html
Because Ukraine gets money from airlines they say it is safe.
Request to the Saker:
If there is a chance, would you mind to share your ideas and analysis of the Russian leadership?
What are the strengths and what are the weaknesses? Is there any possibility to use the current crisis to get rid of all rotten 5th column, Soros, etc elements? Can this whole horror be used to strengthen Russia ?
Some more soul and beauty coming out from inside Novorossia:
In Odessa destroyed the memorial to those who died on May 2
Ally, Novorus.info, Jul 20 2014
A huge banner of Russia was posted by Odessa immediately after the tragic events of May 2 in Odessa. It is a sign of hope, a symbol of the Russian world for Odessa, the symbol of truth and unkillable historical memory of the people. It quickly took back then, but from a song words not throw it was! And Odessa know about it! At night on Jul 19, with the Kulikovo field was removed created by activists of the memorial in memory of those killed on May 2. This was reported by the activists of the Kulikov field. According to them, stands with photos and names of the dead and wreaths, flowers, lamps and other Kulikovo field was taken employees of municipal services. Removed the flag of Odessa from the flagpole at the House of trade unions. Activists also claim that public utilities were accompanied by activists of Euromaidan. The editor-in-chief editor of the edition, Yuri Tkachev could not restrain his emotions after the incident and commented on his page on Facebook:
They are laying flowers to the victims on board the Boeing and taking to the dump pictures of the dead of May 2. Your society is immoral and ugly. You’re sick. You will never be able to create anything honest, clean and bright.
So that was a Holy place to which came from Odessa to honor those who died on May 2. But Odessa is not surrendered, she, as the song of B Vysotsky, “hid for a while…” Woe to the occupants, the junta and the Nazis when it will rise. And this time is not far off. Pearl of the sea is not in the former Ukraine, and in the emerging new Russia. Only in Russian state our pearl will be able to Shine with all the colors, it is not repainted in dull colors of fascism, it will be neither black nor brown! Will attain freedom in the new Russia!
The spirit of these beautiful people will never be defeated, in life or death.
This is a revolution bigger than Putin or the USA.
All support to Novorossia!
– from Nazi-occupied Amerika
Taken from Sidney morning Herald (July 21, 2014 – 1:02AM):
Ukraine bears responsibility for keeping its airspace open to flights like the doomed MH17, says the chief executive of the International Air Transport Association, Tony Tyler.
“Airlines depend on governments and air traffic control authorities to advise which air space is available for flight, and they plan within those limits,” he said.
A graphic from Der Spiegel showing that Malaysia Airlines was not alone in flying over the trouble zone.
A graphic from Der Spiegel showing that Malaysia Airlines was not alone in flying over the trouble zone.
“It is very similar to driving a car. If the road is open, you assume that it is safe. If it’s closed you find an alternate route.”
However, an industry source said in this case, the “road” was more like a toll road, as the cash-strapped Ukrainian government was receiving overflight fees for each commercial flight above its territory and therefore had a financial incentive to keep the airspace open as long as possible.
Three days before MH17 was apparently shot down by a surface-to-air missile, Ukraine had raised the minimum altitude open for commercial flights over the eastern part of its country to 32,000 feet, from 26,000 feet previously after a military cargo jet was downed at 21,000 feet.
Tributes to MH17 victims at the Netherlands Embassy in Kiev.
Tributes to MH17 victims at the Netherlands Embassy in Kiev.
The Malaysian Transport Minister, Liow Tiong Lai, said on Saturday that the pilot had requested to fly at 35,000 feet over Ukraine’s airspace but was told by air traffic control to fly at 33,000 feet.
It is unclear, however, whether flying at a slightly higher altitude would have made any difference in this case as the BUK missile system that allegedly shot down MH17 can hit targets with an altitude of up to 75,000 feet.
A graphic compiled by German magazine Der Spiegel with data from FlightRadar24 showed Malaysia Airlines was not alone in flying over eastern Ukrainian airspace in the week before MH17 was shot down.
Despite the ongoing conflict with Ukraine, Russian national carrier Aeroflot flew over the area 86 times, while Singapore Airlines did so the second most at 75 times. Other carriers that used the airspace included Lufthansa, Thai Airways, Qatar Airways, Emirates and Etihad Airways.
However, British Airways, Air France and Cathay Pacific were among the major carriers noticeably absent from that routing.
The Emirates president, Tim Clark, said MH17 had “changed everything” for his airline.
“We will no longer rest on protocols we had in place that we honestly thought were safe,” he told the Wall Street Journal.
Owen Zupp, the author of The Pilots Blog, said Malaysia Airlines and others had been within their rights to fly over eastern Ukraine given it had been deemed safe to fly by IATA and the International Civil Aviation Organisation.
“However, some of the factors to be considered were undoubtedly the restricted airspace below the route and the reason for that restriction and the warnings that had been issued regarding operations in the region,” he said.
“These warnings had prompted other airlines to avoid the Ukraine airspace. There is also the apparent shooting down of other aircraft in the area and the feasibility of flying alternate routes.”
Mr Zupp said there were undoubtedly real threats to consider prior to the loss of MH17.
“That flight through the area may have been legal, but one must wonder whether it was prudent?”
I am just copy&paste of a comment from Liveleak. I think it should make everyone to think pretty deep about the fuck-up that Putin is actually is doing while we all believe he is some genius (although really I hope I’m wrong, I had to write what I feel now):
“Putin was told 2 months ago to secure no-fly zone over Donetsk region. Yes, to ban Ukrop’s military aviation and any aviation at all and thus to help rebels. He refused because he “didn’t want to provoke USA”. Now he can eat shit.”
We are being guaranteed over and over that Putin is smart, intelligent and almost in contact with Divinity. Yet, people from his side are dieing like flies without a single chance to fight back, including many innocent ones and the eastern UKR is being depopulated to allow gas fracking.
While I was somewhere above 60-70% sure that Putin is doing the right thing and he is not a sell-out, I am back to almost 50%.
I really think he should show more respect towards the common russian people and not allow the western media to present them as drunkards or savage gorillas. After all, he received his power from then and it looks he doesn’t care how his own nation is being pictured.
Hey mister Putin, is one thing to not care about your own image because you might be an insider in this game (especially with one daughter living in Holland !!!) and it’s a different thing to not give a shit about how an entire nation is being driven to the slaughter house under your eyesight (in the name of so called restraint) !!!!!
Have to hand it to Putin, after 6 months of screaming, hysterical nonstop bullshit, hate, lies and full-on information/economic/military assaults he remains professional and hardcore as ever.
When will the US learn that the Russian Federation cannot be intimidated? Let’s not forget that the RF can take any military action desired in Ukraine and succeed within about 60 minutes at any time.
That is the advantage that cannot be eliminated and must be taken into account by the enemy.
MSM is saying the separatists are preventing the experts from coming to the crash site.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/malaysias-transport-mi/story?id=24637912
Malaysia’s Transport Minister Is “Deeply Concerned” About Crash Site
The Malaysian government expressed concern today that the crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH 17 is “now under the full control of separatist groups.”
A Malaysian team of 133 officials and experts arrived in Kiev on Saturday morning to investigate the MH 17 crash site but they have been unable to get to the area to recover victims’ remains and retrieve the aircraft’s black boxes, the Malaysian government said in a statement released today.
According to the statement, armed rebels have prevented the Malaysian recovery and investigation team from getting to the wreckage of MH 17. The Ukrainian government says it is unable to guarantee the safety of international investigators in and around the site.
“Malaysia is very concerned that the sanctity of the crash site has been severely compromised,” the statement read.
Why was MH17 re-routed to the north?
From (http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/07/21/mh-17-beware-of-the-chameleon.html)
“The 10-day NATO exercise code named «BREEZE 2014» has ended in Black Sea. The exercise, which included the use of electronic warfare and electronic intelligence aircraft such as the Boeing EA-18G Growler and the Boeing E3 Sentry Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS), coincided with the shootdown of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 in eastern Ukraine, some 40 miles from the Russian border. NATO ships and aircraft had the Donetsk and Luhansk regions under total radar and electronic surveillance.
MH-17 was shot down over a region where Russian-speaking separatist forces have been battling against the alliance of the Ukrainian armed forces and a private mercenary force answerable to a Ukrainian-Jewish billionaire oligarch.
The U.S. Army has revealed that the 10-day exercise involved «commercial traffic monitoring». Because of the sophistication of the electronic warfare and intelligence used during SEA BREEZE, it can be assumed that commercial traffic monitoring included monitoring the track of MH-17.”
—
Canadian CF18 jets with a recent electronic warfare upgrade on patrol in Romania and Poland may have been the cause of a 4 hour air traffic control blackout in Eastern Europe several weeks ago.
Given the tasking of the BREEZE group, was MH17 moved north to keep it out of the way of Nato tests directed at Crimea?
What is certainly true is that there is a complete record of every electronic twitch in the are, including the targeting and firing of the missile that brought MH17 down.
“The dog that did not bark” is the NATO record that is not publicized. Russia and the Militia did not do it. If they had the detailed data would be everywhere.
Taken from PPPrUNe:
http://images.smh.com.au/2014/07/20/5610315/1405830401939.jpg-620×349.jpg
Finally some meaningful discussion and data in the media.
KLM809 flight-paths are especially revealing. Clearly, they attempted (and twice flown) through what was officially closed airspace of the Crimea restriction zone, which was safe (but officially disallowed), and on other occasions flown the northern Donetsk route, which was officially open, but obviously very unsafe due to confirmed SAM activities. Coincidence, or did they try to steer off the Donetsk route but on some occasions were not allowed to.
Therefore, situation was a complete FUBAR. Local ATC should have closed the airspace in situation such as this and ICAO should always be breathing down their necks when something like this goes on. Instead, it appears everyone was playing politics, as usual. Trying to punish Russia by excluding Crimea space to force the routes over Ukraine did not make any sense as the traffic had to enter Russia space anyway. If someone was determined to play such punishments, restricting all Russia east of Ukraine would have made much more sense.
This is why blaming MH staff for this in any way is insane. How could they do things differently? By having their own intelligence crew for each country they are overflowing? Monitoring press reports about who and when captured SAMs?
Yes, it’s disgusting that any cretins would be shooting at things in the sky without knowing what they were shooting at. But, ironically, for them to know what they were shooting at, they would have to have full support of Russian radar and C&C facilities – meaning full Russian involvement and not silly proxy games.
But, from the rebel point of view, (being bombed and shelled daily) it is easy to see why they would think that one would have to be completely NUTS to fly over that area.
(p.s. – From the maps, next time I’m flying I would go for BA or AirFrance. They obviously sensed the FUBAR, even though were not legally required to do so, and routed clear of it. )
Here are 2 interviews of scientist Dr. Leuren Moret giving her analysis of the Missing Malaysian Plane MH370 . They are both long but I think may shine a light on the use of “space weapons”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUgWhUkkzr4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuWyLgIv1kg
It’s true that this crisis has detracted from Israel’s genocide in Gaza. It’s also coinciding with Israel’s continuation of their Yinon plan to fracture the arab states surrounding Israel enabling them to arrive closer to their Eretz Israel goal. Destruction and genocide of Palestinians being a central part of this plan.
It’s possible that the disappearance of MH370 was a test run for this very scene we are witnessing now. There were many top scientists as passengers on this flight. So who knows what they are trying to cover up.
I would say that these false flags usually are designed to kill more than one stone with one hit….As was 911. 911 achieved several goals…..financial chicanery in stock market. Patriot Act. Militarization of local police. A greater push towards disarming the American public. Theft of negotiable bonds and gold bars from several safes in WTC. Bldg 7 housed documents incriminating Enron officials [and more] Insurance profits for the new owners of WTC. I’m not an expert and there are surely other gains which the public is not privy to.
This makes me conclude that several goals were planned for the downing of this passenger plane MH17. Discredit Putin/Russia and Novorussia leaders. Their response to Putin’s South American tour. and retaliation for Putin’s/Russia’s return to Lourdes. An attempt to sabotage the BRICS initiative to create an alternative to the $. Prevent delivery of the Mistral from France. Retaliation for Russia’s assistance to Maliki in Iraq. Revenge for Russia’s superb counter to Obama’ and Kerry’s “red line” threat. Distract world from realizing the defeat of Poroshenko’s “Surprise”. Probably other goals which.,,,,again the public is not privy to. But the most important or the most immediate goal I think is to protect Kiev/Poroshenko from having egg on their face exposed, which will also be egg on faces of US UK France Germany + NATO and Israel, altho Israel has been very slick here in hiding her involvement.
Saker, I hope that you and your children are recovering from the flu and wish to tell you how grateful I am for putting up this blog, where we can get real information, a very rare occurrence nowadays.
I am not 100% sure of Dr Leuren Moret, let’s say 95% sure of her…. but I AM 100% certain of you Dear Saker.
Here is her home site if any wish to learn more about her. According to her autobiography, Dr. Moret was so overcome when visiting the Nagasaki and Hiroshima museums, that she made the decision to leave the established scientific community because of what she learned there.
According to the article today from the New York Times by Peter Baker there are witnesses (?) who claim to have seen the contrail of a rocket. What also has been ignored is that there were 3 explosions heard by initial witness reports ( within 2 hours right after the event and before the official spin game began). Now one would want to have two jets firing two rockets fairly close together so that if one missed there would be no time for the pilot to say, ” What the hell was that?” and so that leaves the 3rd explosion ( perhaps the plane? or a cover up missile?) At any rate those 3 explosions also could prove to be inconvenient evidence just in case the truth ever is addressed. In English common law one is innocent until proven guilty but it looks like that does not apply to Palestinians or Russians.
How would two jets go about dealing death to an airliner anyway? One missile to the cockpit and one to the fuel tank as close together as possible?
OK, so CIA is stirring the chaos in SE Ukraine and they may be content to continue to do just that but At this point, they may come up with step 2 so my warning is to beware, Putin, in the next 2 week period–pull all your intelligence assets, cross palms with gold and realize these guys have been training in Black ops for YEARS. They have “think tanks” funded with millions of dollars that do nothing but run scenarios like this.
As for Odessa…well, more will be revealed with that situation.
The #1 Police rule is always watch those who are pointing their fingers. These are going to be your real culprits. Those who study criminology know that 99% of the time, finger pointing individuals are the once who are hiding the truth.
The US government was obsessively engaged in finger pointing practices for a very, very long time .
Perhaps it is time for the true criminal to face justice. Too bad, America is catatonic, deeply asleep and clueless.
Andrew,
If you read John on the press conference thread, you will know NAF is not adequately supplied, and many of they perished in Mozgovoi. I would suggest RF fire whoever is over saying the operation, and get some able body in office, and able to be steps ahead of enemy, instead play catch up at every turn. People die because their incompetent. After they win the war, then Putin need to get ride of all those who has not been act on best interest of RF. Maybe after that, he can enjoy whatever. I can tell you I am pretty upset with what is going on.
The Defense Ministry of the Russian Federation released the following statement in connection with the crash of Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777.
“In view of the objective investigation of the air crash of the Boeing 777 that crashed on the territory of Ukraine, it is necessary to conduct thorough investigation with the involvement of representatives of all interested international organizations. According to the Russian Defense Ministry, there are units of the Ukrainian Armed Forces on the disaster area; the units are armed with anti-aircraft missile systems Buk-M1. In the area of northwestern outskirts of Donetsk, divisions of the 156th anti-aircraft missile regiment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are deployed, with 27 Buk M1 complexes. These complexes, on their tactical and technical characteristics, are capable of detecting air targets at distances of up to 160 kilometers and striking them at all altitudes at a range of over 30 kilometers. Moreover, in the skies over the Donetsk region, aircraft of the Ukrainian Air Force equipped with different types of missiles are constantly present. This is an undeniable fact.
“Statements from official Kiev saying that those complexes or aircraft did not open fire on air targets raise serious doubts. In such a short period of time, making such unequivocal conclusions under the conditions of fierce fighting in the area is impossible. Such responsible statements that entail serious legal consequences, require full investigation.
“In connection with all sorts of insinuations concerning the actions of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation on the border regions of Ukraine, we herewith responsibly declare that:
“On July 17, air defense systems of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation were not working in the area.
“The aircraft of the Air Force of the Russia were not performing any sorties on July 17 in the regions bordering on the Donetsk region.
“This information is fully confirmed by means of objective control.
“One should pay attention to the fact that Boeing 777 was conducting the flight beyond the range of air defense systems of the Russian Federation. The aircraft was flying in the airspace of Ukraine, under the control of its air traffic management system.
“We urge the international community to conduct thorough investigation of the disaster.”
Can somebody tell me what is stopping Russia from recognizing the Novorossiya as a legitimate country and stop all this bloodshed? Better, yet welcome these territories back into the Russian fold before the people of this land all get murdered. The West is lost, the whole EU was annexed by the US long time ago and I believe, at this point Russia has nothing to lose but to take back the territories that are Russian to begin with. I’m afraid, if it is not done very soon, we will see things that much more horrifying then MH17.
The official Russian response I just posted supports (by directing) Larchmont’s evidence of an air-to-air missile being the cause of the crash. Russian TV showed a section of wing with linear penetrations that the expert commentator said were likely ATA missile and definitely NOT a BUK…I suppose machine gun fire could also be plausible as a cause. It has some support elsewhere as well:
http://southfront.info/boing-777-sbival-ne-buk-m1/
http://opensxce.blogspot.de/2014/07/abschuss-mh17-zeigt-tragflache.html
Nardami
Air India flight was 90 seconds away when missile struck Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17
Minutes before the crash caused by a missile strike, the AI pilots had also heard the controller give the Malaysian aircraft MH17 what is called “a direct routing”. This permits an aircraft to fly straight, instead of tracking the regular route which is generally a zig-zag track that goes from one ground-based navigation aid or way point to another. “Direct routing saves fuel and time and is preferred by pilots. In this case, it proved fatal,” said an airline source.
Many might want to read the view from Colonel Cassad about the political machinations over the issue of how to sell out Novorossiya:
http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/32315.html
It looks fairly likely that the inability to make a clear decision about what kind of a future Russia wants inside the Ukraine is leading to trouble. Perhaps the resistance army will need to move to inside Russia’s borders. Giving them barely enough to hold on as a negotiating lever only makes sense when the other side wants to negotiate.
“We urge the international community to conduct thorough investigation of the disaster.”
Confirming what I said that Russia is not part of the International Community, which is code for the Westphalia nations and their daughters who invented and control “International Law” and the various treaties and conventions and have moral agency on the international stage – 5 Eyes + Netherlands, France, Denmark, Sweden, Norway. Were Russia demanding she herself be part of the investigation, there would hardly be a need to use this phrase – instead we would hear of a “multinational” investigation.
Similarly, all the hysterics and outrage over 300 western people dying on the plane, yet many multiples of this many innocents have been killed in Novoroosiya without the “International Community” even batting an eyelash, and the horrific criminality and negligence on display in Gaza, Libya, Syria, and Iraq with the mass destruction of human life ongoing for decades. In fact, as we know, this self-same “International Community” is directly responsible for and funds and arms this ongoing slaughter of innocents.
It is nothing more than to reemphasize that the lives of people like Dutchmen, Britons, and Australians are highly sacred, while Russians and Palestinians are subhumans and “supernal refuse” and akin to animals. To these opinion monsters it is “nothing” to kill such a one – it is like going on a hunt or perhaps stepping on a distasteful bug. The real problem for them is cleaning up the mess afterwards, not having pulled the trigger and taken life.
Again, isn’t it amazing they can figure out what happened to Flight 17 in MINUTES, but have yet to figure out where/how/why Flight 370 vanished MONTHS later?
Because one is convenient and serves their purposes, and the other is an embarassment and hopefully forgotten.
Part: 2
Is the Eurmaidan about this?
” Project AERODYNAMIC
CIA project AERODYNAMIC (formerly CARTEL, ANDROGEN, AECARTHAGE) (1949-70) consisted in CIA support for the Ukrainian Supreme Liberation Council ZP/UHVR, a Ukrainian émigré organization, which was established in 1949. ZP/UHVR operational activity concentrated on propaganda and contact operations. CIA helped to establish in New York City the Prolog Research and Publishing Company in 1953 as ZP/UHVR’s publishing and research arm. Prolog, through an affiliate in Munich, the so-called Ukrainian Society for Foreign Studies (QRTERRACE, AETERRACE), published periodicals and selected books and pamphlets which sought to exploit and increase nationalist and other dissident tendencies in the Soviet Ukraine. CIA project QRDYNAMIC/QRPLUMB (formerly AEBEEHIVE) (1970-91) superceded Project AERODYNAMIC and kept on supporting the the ZP / UHVR, the Prolog Research Corporation (QRTENURE, AETENURE) and the Munich Office, now publisher of the monthly journal Suchasnist. CIA terminated QRPLUMB after the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1991 and provided funds to enable Prolog to transition to a privately-funded company. In 1992, Prolog’s monthly Ukrainian journal Suchasnist (Contemporary Times) was successfully transitioned to a publishing company in Kiev, Ukraine and thereafter was published as a collaborative effort between Prolog and a Ukrainian group in Kiev. Ressources Research Aid: Cryptonyms and Terms in Declassified CIA Files Nazi War Crimes and Japanese Imperial Government Records Disclosure Acts Declassified CIA-files about Project AERODYNAMIC (3792 files as of May 2014) Declassified CIA-files about Project QRPLUMB (132 as of May 2014) “
http://operation-gladio.net/euromaidan-timeline
Maedhros:
I could not agree more, and other unquoted section.
“P.S. – The Malaysian airplane has been downed by a air-to-air missile, so that all the talk about BUK systems and who did it is just a waste of time (while civilians in Novorossija keeps on being slaughtered by tens daily). It’s really idiotic to continue playing by the rules set by your enemy, above all when the first of these rules says that they apply only to you.
In any case, whatever happened to the airline the Kremlin knows!”
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?236005-Situation-in-the-Ukraine-Crimea-*Photos-Videos*-ONLY/page228
Some identified by the billboard that this Buk is in Krasnoarmeysk city which is under Ukrainian control since May 11. This same Buk we see on other videos. I believe all these videos of this Buk surfaced on Ukrainian official youtube channels where you cannot even leave a comment (just like those “intercepted calls”).
“On the billboard on the zoom-in you can see “богдан” (Bogdan), it is autosalon in Krasnoarmeysk on Dnepropetrovskaya 34 street. http://rst.ua/autosalons/?city=129&make=661&model=0 You cannot find such autosalon in Krasnodonsk city where this video is allegedly shot via Ukrainian officials/Avakov”
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?236005-Situation-in-the-Ukraine-Crimea-*Photos-Videos*-ONLY/page228
Hi Saker.
A Very, Very good interview of Paul Craig Roberts.
(perhaps the best I’ve read from him.)
-US War Against Russia Is Already Underway- [June 27, 2014]
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/01/us-war-russia-already-underway-pcr-interviewed-voice-russia/
A must read & share in my view!
That’s why I’m writing this ;o).
Seems like lots of video eyes were watching the Ukie sky that day yet none record a missile contrail.
How to explain the reports of parachutes being witnessed and the reports of two Ukie jets shadowing MH17?
Mid-air collision is still a possible explanation, yet is almost never mentioned.
Why isn’t it possible for a jet of MH17’s size to fly without an operable tail section? Is it the loss of lift, directional stability, or a combination of both or neither? (Pictures of WW2 combat aircraft having landed with such a casualty causes the question.)
Cui bono clearly belongs to the Outlaw US Empire, and the already emplaced narrative implies some sort of shoot-down, not a mid-air collision. The choice of a Malaysian plane seems obvious due to that nation’s War Crime’s Court’s judgments.
With so many civilian airliners overflying Novorossiya, what motive would it have to single out just one flight when all should be deemed probable enemies?
These are just a few questions and observations that seem the most pertainent. Given the nature of a BUK or similar system’s contrail, if one did the deed, then the contrail ‘fingerprint” would still be hanging in the air well after the jet hit the ground, yet there’s zero reports of any and NO video recorded evidence of same. Thus, Russia cannot release any radar evidence of a missile track since none exists.
An accident, while possible, seems wrong because of the already prepared media narrative depends of a SAM missile being used. What needs to be produced is evidence of the two or more Ukie jets reported to have shadowed MH17.
There are two possibilities q) It was a mistake or it was deliberate.
There is only on party that benefits from a Deliberate attack, Kyiv – the False flag senario
Kyiv has 27 BUK missile launches, The International community should be insisting that Ukraine make available all BUK missile launchers for Forensic Analysis to determine if any have been fired recently. They should also audit all missile inventory. This would not be definitive But it will be a step that should be undertaken. If there was a murder in a gun shop you would check all the guns. Find the smoking weapon and you find the group responsible.
Kia ora Saker,
Have just ‘stumbled’ across this blog (via Globl Rsrch)& had to have a jak when I saw the .nz suffix. Holy hell, what a plethora of info!! Will take me a while to digest this page.. The pertinent questions you asked will undoubtedly give a highly indepth account of the situation thus far. One would hope that it becomes exponential ie; reaches the point where the Neo-Wotevas (Nastis??) cannot hide the facts of their latest atrocity through their ‘Media Battalion’.
All th best
Mark
Dead bodies in plane theory:
The full list of passengers is now online (https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/mh17-pax-and-crew-manifest.pdf) and if you google, you can see that these are real people. No empty facebook profiles generated in the same day and all other utter bullshit as you wrote before. Apparetnly these stupid stories start to fall apart.
To anyone interested in Malaysian public opinion, visit this link:
http://syedsoutsidethebox.blogspot.ch/2014/07/a-must-read-why-mh17.html
The blogger is a former advisor to the Mahathir administration and I can vouch that he is extremely well informed on Malaysian politics (a Byzantine chess-pit). Be quick though, he has an annoying habit of only allowing current posts to be visible before they are bumped off-page (i.e. you cannot access older posts).
Il Discobolo
In looking the flight path of MH17 for July 17 as shown in flightaware, all people focus on the line plotted above the map. This is not the correct information to look at. One should, instead, open the “track log & graph”.
There are the numbers. There you can see, between other information, the time, in the first column and in the last column the Location/Type of the Reporting Facility.
In the case of MH17 for July 17, you see a strange thing: all rows are given every minute, or so, sometime more than one for every minute. The last row is given at 15:19 (CEST), with the previous one at 14:11 (CEST), more than one hour of gap. Also, the last data ends amost one hour before the Ukraine ATC said it lost contact (14:15 UTC, i.e. 16:15 CEST) with MH17.
Moreover, the last data has no indication of the Reporting Facility.
Furthemore, if one looks at the “track log & graph” for the flights in the previous days, one can see that after some time (it vaies, tipically between 13:45-14:10 CEST), all rows are indicated (in the last column) as “estimated”, with the indication of the Location/Type of the Reporting Facility reappearing only after 19:00 CEST.
That means that we do not know where and how the aircraft was really flying before it crashed (few minutes after 16:15 CEST, if we trust to the Ukrainina ATC) after the last fully reported data at 14:11 CEST.
The conflicting air traffic control instructions as described in the
International Business Times, as of: “In April, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration”, could be the reason why the MH17 Flight Path was redirected to the north.
Anon wrote:
(p.s. – From the maps, next time I’m flying I would go for BA or AirFrance. They obviously sensed the FUBAR, even though were not legally required to do so, and routed clear of it. )
In that case, don’t fly with Aereoflot, because yesterday they were flying over Donetsk. (Flight tracker 24).
TO Andrew,
Ukies have removed their “proof” against self-defence forces. Gee, I wonder why ?
Andrew
Do you have a source for this please? Because the US Embassy in Kiev is citing these recordings as a proof (still). tks
http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2014/07/21/the-mh17-investigation-and-buk-312/
I believe that Mr. Putin still tries to protect his main goal (Eurasia/BRICS buildup). Now, he seemed very tense, exhausted, sweating, and if not sick strongly under pressure in his yesterday statement like «Dead man walking». Did he realized he was left with little choice but the biggest decision? INn this casr let us pray for our souls.
Jim W Dean, Managing Editor of Veterans Today, an intel expert friendly to Russia and Novorossiya … is quite publicly annoyed over the fact that neither Russia nor the US is releasing the results of satellite data which they both have, that very likely clearly tells what truly hit Malaysian flight MH17.
In Dean’s interview with Iran’s PressTV, Dean urges the Malaysian government to press both Russia and the US to release what they know: « … both Russia and the US know exactly what happened … So Malaysia has to step up at the play and they have to demand, they have to know that the satellites collected information and tell us exactly what happened and they should demand that that be released within the next 24 hours. »
Dean’s message to Russia & the USA: « … look, you have got to stop jerking us around like this. We know you know what happened and you cannot waste all of our time like this for whatever public relations that you are trying to manipulate us on »
So scary that Putin & the USA seem to be playing the same game together …
Jim Dean of VT – Russia should release satellite data!
Anonymous @ 20 JULY, 2014 21:24 With Russia handling the media war so badly – and RT Russia Today channel half-imploding – this seems far beyond incompetence, it almost seems purposeful. Am afraid we must revive the dark thoughts that Putin is indeed a sell-out, the most clever of all ‘false opposition’ who has been slowly betraying to the Western oligarch goons. I would hope this is wrong – and maybe I can be diverted again by another Saker pro-Putin pep talk – but my rational mind says something really stinks here, in Russia’s not using the propaganda tools so easily to hand. Putin, Russia and Russia’s key media are just not that stupid. This seems evidence for the worst fears.
It is slowly becoming clear that you are correct.
@ les 01:44
There we go. It’s like clockwork. Everytime there is a big “terrorist” event, there are “exercises” of a similar or identical nature going on at the same time and place or very near.
Let’s refresh some memories:
Exercises on Sept 11 (involving among other things the hijacking of planes, introduction of false data on civilian radars etc)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_government_operations_and_exercises_on_September_11,_2001
London underground anti-terrorist exercises on 7/7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH8MkWK2hmc
Oslo antiterrorist exercises right before the massacre on 7/22
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7R6ck9SLtg
Anti-terrorist exercises by NATO in European capitals, ending one day before the Madrid train bombings on March 11 2004
http://www.nato.int/docu/pr/2004/p04-022e.htm
http://www.belt.es/noticias/2004/marzo/18/otan.htm
And now we have the “Breeze 2014” exercises dealing with “electronic warfare aircraft” and “commercial traffic monitoring” going on in the Black Sea, and we read that “200 US Army personnel normally assigned to bases in Germany were in Ukraine during the time of the MH-17 fly-over. They were participating in NATO exercise RAPID TRIDENT II. Ukraine’s Ministry of Defense led the exercise.”
The probability of these things being chance coincidences is zero.
Read on Strategika51:
L’agitation autour de la destruction du Boeing 777 de la Malaysian Airlines, exploitée par la machine de propagande américaine pour enfoncer Moscou, a soudainement décru après l’envoi à certains pays occidentaux par la Russie de preuves très compromettantes pour Kiev via l’Organisation des Nations Unies. Le secrétariat général de cette organisation se retrouve sous une immense pression.
Strategika 51 a appris de source sûre que depuis la contre-offensive ukrainienne sur Slavyansk, les combattants séparatistes russophones regroupés sous les bannières de NovoRossya et de la République populaire du Donbass se sont repliés sur Donetsk où ils ont eu des renforts de combattants tchétchènes, biélorusses et arméniens encadrés par des officiers des Spetsnaz russes. Ces forces ont infligés aux forces ukrainiennes encadrées par des officiers US, polonais et israéliens de terribles pertes, que nos sources évaluent à plusieurs centaines de tués ou de blessés.
Toujours les mêmes sources, le 14 juillet, un avion cargo militaire ukrainien de type Antonov An-26 rempli d’armes et de munitions a été abattu près de Lugansk par les forces pro-russes. Deux jours plus tard, un avion d’attaque au sol ukrainien Sukhoi Su-25 est descendu près d’Amrosievka.
D’autres appareils des forces aériennes ukrainiennes ont été abattus: un Antonov An-30, un Ilyouchin Il-76, une dizaine d’hélicoptères Mil Mi-8 et plusieurs hélicoptères d’attaque Mil Mi-24, transformant l’est de l’Ukraine en une zone d’interdiction aérienne non déclarée.
Dans les fait, l’avancée des unités d’artillerie et de blindés ukrainien n’est plus couverte par des hélicoptères de combat.
Face à cette situation, Kiev a déployé ses systèmes de défenses aériennes et envoyé ces chasseurs voler de manière sporadique jusqu’à une certaine limite au delà de laquelle les russes risquaient de réagir.
Ce fut la chute d’un avion cargo ukrainien abattu par les forces séparatistes en plein territoire russe qui a déclenché des tirs d’artillerie ukrainiens contre des postes frontaliers russes. Au moins un obus ukrainein s’est abattu sur une maison sise en territoire russe, causant la mort de deux civils. Nos sources insistent sur l’importance extrême de la cargaison emportée par l’appareil ukrainien dont le contenu était classé secret défense en précisant que des commandos de Kiev ont tenté de pénetrer en Russie pour récupérer la dite cargaison mais ont été accrochés par les milices ou plus certainement par des combattants tchétchènes pro-russes.
Il est à noter que pour nombre d’officiel ukrainiens, les populations du Donbass ne participent pas aux combats. Pour eux c’est des mercenaires pro-russes venus d’autres pays qui se battent contre l’armée ukrainienne.
Le jour où le Boeing 777 du vol MH17 de Malaysian Airlines effectuant la liaison Amsterdam-Kuala Lumpur a été abattu, les forces ukrainiennes battaient en retrait des environs de Donetsk. Mais des unités menées par des SAS britanniques agissaient en pleine zone rebelle.
Nos sources avancent que le choix du vol de Malaysian Airlines est loin d’être fortuit et doit être lié à la disparition du vol MH370 entre Kuala Lumpur et Pékin. Cette compagnie aérienne appartient à un pays, la Malaisie, qui ne reconnaît pas Israël mais demeure également le seul pays où la possession de produits israéliens constitue un délit pénal.
Le mystères des vols MH370 et MH17 risquent de demeurer entiers et sans réponse. Nos sources sont catégoriques: il s’agit dans les deux cas d’une opération d’officines secrètes liés à des puissances de premier ordre.
The United States Intelligence Assessment:
Intelligence Assessment
A comparison with Ghouta:
Comparison with Ghouta
I am going to turn off this crisis on my twitter feed, and on this blog. I can not longer read about death of people in Novorossia, and praise of Putin without feeling boil of blood.
Since first When RF tell people of southwest to postpone the referendum, I felt that Novorossia is been betrayed. I still do. On every turn of crisis, RF caught with its pants down. The insufficient of equipment still on ground after so many month, make me think either RF is total incompetent, a paper bear, want NAF to fail, or just simply have a death wish. What ever RF will get from his inaction are rightly deserved. I only fell sorry for people of Novorossia. Nothing you can do to bring all those dead back, and there going to be more of them.
But I just can not stand the stupidity of RF government. I am just glad Chinese government has been competent, and spare its people so many mishaps as we see here in Novorossia.
In case anyone still wonders why the plane [MH17] was shot down:
“Ukrainian army tanks were reported to be launching an assault to break pro-Russian rebels’ hold on the eastern city of Donetsk on Monday in the first major outbreak of hostilities in the area since Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down last week.” – LINK.
And the soldiers have to guard decomposing body parts in a field? Really?
Effective protest does not appear to be available to anyone – therefore it may seem best to report events only and not discuss because we begin to evaluate people’s emotions? One has to battle with one’s own emotions, become like a stone to reveal aspects of these events? Trouble is emotion can distort values, some become silent, some curse, some evaluate to entrust to long term memory, some criticise certain protests – none should be judged as character values – I favour that, like a child, one must continue asking questions of every kind and search for every clue to facts in order that history may be valuable and that meantime we may be valuable to one another.
@Martin Bochnig 20 JULY, 2014 18:21
Proof, proof, not only do we have Kiev trolls, psyops and hasbaras but we have idiots supposedly “on our side” which worsen the mess.
Did you really look at the video?
It’s the shooting of the ANTONOV AN 30 ON JULY 6TH, the wings of the plane are PERPENDICULAR not slanted as a Boeing 777.
Saker,
Get well soon! Avoid dairy and sugar, drink lots of water and take vit C. You’ll flush it out.
In the meantime, I trust you will enjoy this article: http://chipstone.livejournal.com/792953.html
It is almost exactly two years old, but I think it has not lost an yota of relevance.
Cheers,
Intolerant Bastard
@ Anonymous 09:14
That track log information for MH17 is indeed very odd
Hello…
New here, but found this blog so much better informative and more interesting then most of the alternative media at this moment.
First of all i am one of those people who lost somebody close from this flight (my colleague, his 2 sons and his wife)…so the stories concerning fake travellers etc. will be more difficult to make in my opinion.
Besides of that a very interesting interview CNN just had with Borodai.
You can see the agony on his face with some of the questions they fire at hime.
http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/07/21/newday-intv-russia-rebel-leader-mh17-malaysia.cnn.html
@ hpm29 10:21
Yes, Putin has looked very much out of sorts for the last 10 days or so, all through his South American trip, and now probably even more.
Some more breaking news :
Op de avond van de crash ben ik aanwezig geweest op Schiphol bij de nabestaande bijeenkomst. Hier werd weinig concrete informatie gegeven maar wat er wel gezegd werd;
De piloot heeft contact gehad met een communicatietoren voordat deze van de radar verdween. Het ging om een “distress call” met als boodschap dat het vliegtuig in een snelle daling was.
Bij vertrek heb ik dit nog een keer nagevraagd en werd door een medewerker bevestigd dat de piloot contact heeft gehad.
Google Translate :
On the night of the crash, I was present at the airport when the survivor meeting. Here was little concrete information but what there was said;
The pilot has been in contact with a communications tower before it disappeared from radar. It was a “distress call” with the message that the aircraft was in a rapid decline.
On departure I’ve again checked and confirmed by an employee that has had. Pilot contact
It appears that some contributors to this blog have a notion that the American government is “homogenous” or sing from the same hymn book as the saying goes.
There are contradictions between and within the opponents ranks which have consistently been shown to have strategic utility.
I suggest that rather than engaging in speculation on the basis of no information, allow the opponents to speculate all they will – and they will irrespective of our efforts – allowing the opponents contradictions to fester.
If you want to have an effect stop using credit, boycott US products and services, even those produced outside and branded as US, and as mostly amateurs in matters of intelligence and media, try to conceive that perhaps your opponent’s opponents have some inkling of what they are doing.
Persons in the non Anglo-Saxon world have wide experience of messiahs from the West – try to learn some humility.
Its a sexist remark but premature ejaculation often leads to disappointment.
Anon:
The probability of these things being chance coincidences is zero.
Don’t forget live fire US Naval missile exercises over Long Island Sound during the TWA800 mishap.
News anchors still slip up sometimes and state that it was taken down by a missile instead of the preposterous spark in a fuel tank that is the official scenario.
There is a name for all of this – its called Revelation of the Method. Look it up.
Anon:
So scary that Putin & the USA seem to be playing the same game together …
Again, the Russian Ministry of Defense already stated as plainly as possible what happened according to their data. Ukraine Armed Forces were operating three interlinked BUK units around Donetsk, and the one at Avdiivka fired and hit the plane via relayed radar control data from Styla.
‘Seal’ the border (it cannot be sealed) and state that any violation of the territory of the RF will be met with immediate and harsh response. UA will provide plenty of opportunities – then at a moment of your own choosing, using any assets necessary in UA, act.
Novorossia has to be a dirty war, a people’s war, RF cannot save the people by imposing an artifical situation by military force.
The only reason to impose full military force is a strictly military objective, when it becomes necessary for the defense of Moscow.
That time can come sooner than we think or hope.
Andrew,
The Thirty Years War is a fascinating saga, if you’re interested in blood, avarice, stupidity and suffering. And yes, it would be very nice if we could finally maybe learn something from it. But Russia wasn’t a signatory to Treaty of Westphalia because Russia wasn’t involved in the bloodfest it putatively ended. On the other hand, the various German principalities, uh, hosted a lot of it, including the place where the treaty was signed. That war essentially had to do with issues of succession within the Holy Roman Empire and just a bit of bickering between Catholics, Lutherans and Catholics. The treaty was a precursor to the concept of International Law simply bc it involved so many countries, and while you’re correct that Russia is maybe a junior member at best of what we now call the “International Community”, that has nothing to do with Westphalia per se and everything to do with our our efforts (Nuremburg, Geneva, UN, etc.) to impose whatever hegemony we could. I.e., both International Law and the International Community as they now exist are due to our efforts in the twentieth century, not any signatories in 1648, most of whom could hardly be termed world powers.
There’s one more thing I’d like to say, and it’s related to historiography and the professional practice of history, at least when done properly by people not under the influence of economic or ideological vested interests.
You have a wonderful array of facts at your disposal, but there’s a lot more to the process of sifting through data and reaching reasonably valid conclusions when working with people, than exists in your field where you’re working with fairly static, tried-and-tested tolerances, formulas and measurements. Even the new ones, once they’re tested and developed, simply get used, maybe with various adjustments for various situations but that all turns into a formula too, right? I’m not at all denigrating the process; my father-in-law was one of the brightest men I’ve ever met and my husband’s undergraduate degree in engineering has likewise served him quite well even though his advanced training is in another field.
In history, otoh, there’s not only a big difference between original and secondary source material, but a lot of knowledge is necessary before you can appropriately weigh your data, much less assemble it into any coherent hypothesis. And good historians, like good scientists, offer hypotheses for a long time and see them subjected to a whole lot of external validation of varying kinds before terming them theories. And theories, scientifically-speaking, still aren’t Absolute Truth — hasn’t been one yet re: human behavior past or present that’s remained simultaneously robust and meaningful, to put it in lay terms. That’s very different from engineering, where my late father-in-law’s manuals I am sure could still be used if needed, or adjusted for changes in standards and materials. It’s more like the hard sciences, or genetics really, where new stuff constantly forces new thinking about origins, migrations and human groupings but also new thinking about how to collect, examine *and organize* the data obtained.
In short, in history, a couple of facts do not a conclusion make.
Oops, let’s try “Calvinists” for that second “Catholic” above. dang, need more coffee!
the malaysian press comments are with the presstitude, See this link – http://www.futurefastforward.com/component/content/article/9811.html
title is – MH17 – Another False Flag Operation By The Zionist Anglo-American War Cabal – By Matthias Chang (21/7/14) PDF Print E-mail
Matthias Chang
Monday, 21 July 2014 11:19
Nora:
The treaty was a precursor to the concept of International Law simply bc it involved so many countries
Not only that, but because of who was NOT involved – the Church of Rome.
Also, the primary countries involved are the main western international actors today – France, Netherlands, Sweden, Spain, etc. Germany, successor of Brandenburg/Prussia, does not count right now because they are under continued military occupation by those who do, 70 years after WWII.
Russia was never part of this coterie, and it was Tsar Peter’s attempts to join them some decades later that resulted in St. Petersburg and the window on the west. Similarly, Turkey is not a part, nor China, nor Persia.
You can tell who is the “International Community” by who was and is allowed to maintain overseas colonies and annex overseas territories with impunity, as for example the US did with the Marianas Islands conquered by military force from Japan, and annexed less than 20 years ago, and by who is allowed to start and fight wars with impunity.
BTW, I did respond to you some days ago in that other thread. I hope you got to see it.
Andrew,
But the Church WAS involved up to their eyeballs in both the free-for-all and the Treaty, every which way and at every level from the Pope to various Cardinals to individual priests — it was the Holy Roman Empire, for gosh sakes. Rome just didn’t sign it, that’s all — but was certainly behind every Catholic who did (not being Conspiratoid here, I’m not saying *that* kind of stuff at all; I mean on the operational/strategy level). Read C.V. Wedgwood, The Thirty Years War; if you can handle the blood and guts, there’s more detail in there than even you could probably digest on the first reading! ;~) It’s very old now but still one of the best; she’s quite comprehensive, to put it mildly, and you can see how she utilizes her source material.
Absolutely YES to the rest of what you just wrote, except the current iteration is far more due to the ongoing effects of what we said to Russia via Hiroshima/Nagasaki, i.e., 20th century power politics. Problem is, we’re now hitting the 21st and (hopefully) the end of not just our, but European hegemony.
And no, I didn’t see your response but would love to — do you remember which thread it was on? In any case, you obviously have a very well-trained mind but it’s a different kind of training with (thank God!) some very real absolutes — I wouldn’t want a historian or scientist, behavioral or otherwise, building any bridges I have to drive over or nuclear plants on the same planet I inhabit. Otoh, the better historians, shrinks, scientists of all stripes tend to treat their data less absolutely, even if that’s not the way it’s reported in the press — and they pretty much all used to back in the Stone Ages when I was young.
Effective protest does not appear to be available to anyone – therefore it may seem best to report events only and not discuss because we begin to evaluate people’s emotions? One has to battle with one’s own emotions, become like a stone to reveal aspects of these events? Trouble is emotion can distort values, some become silent, some curse, some evaluate to entrust to long term memory, some criticise certain protests – none should be judged as character values – I favour that, like a child, one must continue asking questions of every kind and search for every clue to facts in order that history may be valuable and that meantime we may be valuable to one another.