by Stephen Karganovic
Similarities in the way the Western coalition is handling the Ukrainian crisis that it engendered and brought to the point of savage conflict and the strategies that the same actors pursued in the nineties to lay the foundations for a brutal civil war and stoke the conflict resulting in the destruction of the Former Yugoslavia are being closely analyzed by Russian experts. Reasons for such close attention abound. For one thing, whenever your unimaginative (or excessively arrogant) opponent repeatedly acts by following a set matrix that gives you a significant strategic advantage. It enables you, within broad limits, to anticipate his moves and to devise effective countermeasures.
While the hubris of Western strategists undoubtedly makes the job of opposing their designs easier, it is nevertheless important, no matter how striking the analogies may be, to carefully outline the major similarities as well as differences in the situations being compared so as not to fall into the trap of fighting the last war, instead of the one at hand.
1. Ethnic and religious fragmentation. Identification of exploitable social tensions and their systematic exacerbation to serve as the detonators of the planned crisis. That means estrangement of constitutive communities from each other, with emphasis on what separates them while downplaying what they have in common.
In Yugoslavia, this process started being implemented long before the visible outbreak of the crisis by engineering new ethnic identities (Muslim, Montenegrin, Macedonian) and encouraging separatist aspirations within the existing ones (Croats, Slovenians). The Ukrainian identity also is an artificial construct which defines itself not in positive terms but primarily in militant contrast to the Russian. In the Ukraine, as in Yugoslavia, Catholic/Orthodox religious cleavages are eagerly exploited to exacerbate existing animosities.
2. Manufacturing illusory material inducements to foster politically desired conduct.
In the former Yugoslavia, which by the late 80s had a decent standard of living, the prospect of an even more prosperous life that would presumably follow upon the dissolution of the socialist state was used as a bait to motivate separatist tendencies. The Catholic west was promised increased prosperity by opting out and making a “civilizational choice” (almost the same phrase that later was launched in the Ukraine) in favor of joining the neighboring Western-block countries. Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo were promised benefits through alignment with rich Islamic countries. In the Ukraine, the illusion of quick incorporation into the European Union was conjured. The majority of the people in western and central Ukraine who responded positively to this false prospect were quite unaware of the real economic and social conditions and, more importantly, trends in the EU and acted on unfounded assumptions.
3. Control of information flow in targeted countries in order to mold mass perceptions and conduct.
In the former Yugoslavia, penetration of media space by Western- affiliated interests, spearheaded by Soros, began as soon as political liberalization in the late 80s made it possible. By the early 90s, as the conflict was being actively stoked from abroad, large segments of the local media in all Yugoslav republics were already under the sway of Western owners. A similar softening up process in the media sphere went on in the Ukraine during the last two decades, with all the major media outlets under the firm control of Western-backed oligarchs. They were propagating an almost uniform and factually false narrative about the benefits that would follow political alignment with NATO and EU and estrangement from Russia.
4. In both the Ukraine and the former Yugoslavia a core element of the population insisted on sticking to its own narrative. They radically rejected the false perceptions that were being encouraged as a prelude to accepting Western-arranged political recomposition. In the Ukraine it was the Russian-speaking East, in Yugoslavia the Serbs.
The refusal of these groups to peacefully accept the loss of their cultural identity and political autonomy led to conflict in both cases. The question that begs a clear answer is whether armed conflict (while being basically foreseeable) was also an intended consequence of the processes that were set in motion. In the case of the Ukraine that is rather doubtful because unequivocal pro-Western realignment of the entire country within the NATO/EU block, under the command of a subservient central authority in Kiev, rather than outright political fragmentation, clearly was the intention of the instigators of regime change. In the case of Yugoslavia, it is possible to argue that a conflict ending in the Serbs’ military defeat definitely was part of the plan, but it may be that a much quicker and more successful campaign was originally envisioned. As it turned out, by giving free reign to their Croat and Muslim protégés the instigators of the Yugoslav crisis may have inadvertently created a clear existential threat to Serbs, dispersed throughout the former Yugoslavia, that greatly stiffened their resistance and prolonged the conflict beyond what was originally envisioned. Besides, that may have led to another unintended consequence: serious questioning, in Russia, of the Yeltsin alliance (albeit as a junior partner) with the West. That came to a head around the time of the Kosovo war, resulting in the rise of Putin and his political vision in reaction to it.
In the Ukraine, whatever may have been the original design (probably leaning only toward cultural fragmentation while preserving the country’s overall political integrity, albeit with the more reliable western element subjugating the untrustworthy east of the country) it seems to have collapsed once unrestrained force was applied in the subjugation process. As informed analysts have pointed out, power sharing compromises between Kiev and the Russian-speaking East that may have been possible two or three months ago no longer are after the mayhem and destruction wrought by junta forces. A situation is rapidly developing in which regions with a mainly Russian cultural identification are becoming adamant in their refusal to have anything to do with Kiev, whatever the details of the proposed arrangement. In that sense, a stark analogy to the spirit of unyielding resistance which actuated Bosnian and Croatian Serbs in the Yugoslav conflict is now shaping up in the Ukraine. It is conceivable in both cases that a subtler and more flexible initial approach by Western-backed players in relation to the Serbian and Russian population they desired to reduce to their domination would have been more effective in thwarting the radicalization of the resistance. And it may actually have been successful because in both cases initially at least the resistors clearly had no intention of resorting to force.
5. The West has no qualms about using the most unsavory available elements as instruments to execute its designs. In Bosnia the West’s devil’s pact with Iran (shades of Iran-Contra) and other more or less fundamentalist Islamic actors in order to strengthen local Muslim forces responsive to NATO/EC interests and fighting for control over the entire country has been amply documented. To some extent, participation of extreme European right-wing elements in the war effort on the side of the rightist Tudjman regime in Croatia was also tolerated. A similar pattern can be seen in the Middle East, with radical Islamist factions being instrumentalized to undermine secular regimes deemed unfriendly to the West.
In the Ukraine the devil’s pact apparently was made with some of the most odious local fascist elements, literally collaborationist relics from the World War II period. Their task was to provide the mailed fist with which Western-backed oligarchs and politicians in Kiev would demolish their opponents and consolidate their rule. The calculus in both the Yugoslav and Ukrainian situations seems to have been “we’ll use them to get rid of the main opponent now, and we’ll deal with them later.” The possibility that Frankensteins were being created who would not be amenable to dissolution once their usefulness has ended does not seem to have crossed the minds of the creators. The postwar implantation of radical Islam in Bosnia, where previously it had never existed, and the consolidation of a strong and growing fascist undercurrent in Croatia is proof enough of that. As for the Nazi-inspired movements and militias in the Ukraine there seems to be no clear plan how to bring them to heel once the conflict is over and they presumably have served their purpose.
In both the Former Yugoslavia and the Ukraine, the instruments the West amorally employed to achieve its limited objectives have planted the seeds of long term instability and show no disposition of remaining subservient to their creators in the long term. For Russia that presents a serious challenge in the Ukraine as the evil seed planted by the West’s opportunistic meddling bears bitter fruit. It will undoubtedly hamper the eventual full integration of the Ukraine within the bounds of even the most loosely defined concept of the “Russian world” as envisioned by Russia’s current policy.
6. Surreptitious support for the West’s favorites while publically proclaiming a hands-off policy which in practice applies only to others. Another significant similarity is that in both crises the West has initiated embargoes on arms and logistical supplies to the warring sides but sidesteps them regularly in favor of its local clients. Voluminous evidence assembled after the nineties leaves no doubt that Muslim and Croat forces in Yugoslavia were recipients of generous quantities of arms and training, and later invaluable logistical assistance as well, while Belgrade was being criticized regularly for any support extended to its compatriots in Bosnia or Croatia.
Similarly, Russia is the target of a demonization process for extending not just military assistance, but even humanitarian aid, to the Russian speaking Ukrainian regions. Western sponsors insist on an almost unlimited right to prop up their clients while denying Belgrade in the nineties and Moscow now a similar prerogative. Their insistence on a “level playing field” (a phrase often used in the Bosnian conflict) has been exposed for what it really is: sheer hypocrisy.
7. An important difference: Moscow has clearly defined policy goals. It may be argued that one of the chief reasons for the failure of Serbian resistance in Croatia and only partial success in Bosnia was the absence of a clear political concept both in their own ranks and in Belgrade, which was backing them. Arguably, the Russian analysis of that experience was important in ensuring that Moscow and its eastern Ukrainian allies do not get stuck in a conflict without a clear definition of their objectives and the means to achieve them. President Putin undoubtedly does not want to emulate Slobodan Milošević, who delivered a brilliant television address with profound insights into the machinations of his Western opponents but with a timing that could not have been more ill-fated – just days before he was overthrown.
It seems that events in the Balkans have had a sobering effect on Russian policy on two counts. First, in the late nineties the Kosovo war and the bombing of Yugoslavia clearly rang a huge alarm which contributed to the change of leadership which brought Vladimir Putin and his vision to prominence. But the ill effects of the meandering policy in support of his protégés in Bosnia and Croatia that Milošević pursued have taught the Russians another hugely important lesson. It is that if one does not have a broad strategic vision and the capacity to achieve its realization, it is better to avoid such risky and complex entanglements altogether.
re: “7. An important difference: Moscow has clearly defined policy goals. It may be argued that one of the chief reasons for the failure of Serbian resistance in Croatia and only partial success in Bosnia was the absence of a clear political concept both in their own ranks and in Belgrade, which was backing them. Arguably, the Russian analysis of that experience was important in ensuring that Moscow and its eastern Ukrainian allies do not get stuck in a conflict without a clear definition of their objectives and the means to achieve them.”
What were Serbia’s goals? Are the goals really clear in Novorossiya or Russia? The wishlist is perhaps fairly clear, but you have to set priorities as you can’t always get what you want. For example, you can perhaps keep the country together, but it will definitely lean anti-Russian. The power is in Kiev, and they are going to control the voting and educational systems, and the media will be in the hands of the Western faction. Or Russia can fund the NAF enough to take half of the country, but then you have to expect very serious EU sanctions and a poisoned relationship with the EU for a long time.
1. Yugoslavia was multi ethnic state, and saying “…engineering new ethnic identities (Muslim, Montenegrin, Macedonian)” is what Serbian nationalists are saying all the time: Croats are catholic Serbs, Slovenians are Alpine Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians are in fact Serbs etc. It shows disrespect to other nations and Serbian hegemony over other nations in Yugoslavia.
Exactly
Adfter much study, I concude the war in Donbass was the intended western outcome from the beginning.
The war serves multiple levels of interest to the West in Ukraine:
1) Driving Russians back to Russia as refugees or outright killing them, thus reducing the anti-western political bloc without losing territory
2) Destroying the obsolete and excess capacity represented by Akhmetov’s Metinvest steel mills, thus helping western European and American mills and mills in central Ukraine survive
3) Destroying the unecominc coal industry and its required government subsidies from Kiev
4) Creating a new coal market for American coal in Ukraine deprived of its own domestic supply
5) Destroying obsolete housing stock, especially apartments, not required for the planned smaller future population of Donbass
6) Creating divisive enmity between Ukraine and Russia
7) Poisoning the popular view of the Russian language and culture in Ukraine
8) Opportunity to “legitimately” kill off radicals on all sides
9) Quick utilitarian dump of Ukraine’s non-NATO Russian military technology, allowing rearming of the state to proceed with western style weaponry
10) Humilitation of the Ukrainian Army to legitimate NATO “advisors” in its reconstitution along NATO lines
11) Strengthening the hand of the Ukrainian State Security apparatus
12) Uncovering of Russian moles and “traitors”
I’m sure we could go on with this list …
@hAZE
Agreed.
It’s easy to create enemies when you act like that. On top of that the Serbs dislike the Bulgarians and the Romanians. It’s why NATO was able to play divide et impera game…the Serbs were quite the willing participants in it. In the end everybody lost.
Ethnofiletism is a terrible disease!
I’d add that Yugoslavia was a federal state constituted out of sovereign republics with the right for secession written in constitution. Let us put aside western involvment as they didn’t have a clear single policy toward the issue of secession (it was solely a German playground from before!). If there is something that eastern ukraninas can learn from Yugoslav tragedy then war criminal and any such activity should be prevented or punished by NAF and not supported with “what about their war crimes”. Everyone should take care about his own back yard and keep it clean! Yugoslavia won 2WW as multinational country under the partisan/Tito leadership. Every single national movements in Yugoslavia during IIWW were colloborating with nazis. If ustashe killed around 700.000 people (mostly Serbs), chetnics killed at least half that number (muslims, croats) and both were killing communists. And both of them had a plan how to solve serbs/croats national problem. And guess what they had the same solution: conquer as much land as possible and use 1/3 merit (1/3 to be exterminated, 1/3 to be expeled and 1/3 to be assimilated). Sounds familiar with Ukraine? As banderovits in Ukraine, both Serbs and Croats had their chetnics and ustashe crolling from their darkest holes in 90′(hiding before under western umbrella – in UK, Oz and USA mostly, before that) leaving a lot of people in sorrow. As for leaderhips of national republics – they were looking what “them” are doing, forgeting about look at the mirror and of course feeding the elites (creating them also). So, I’d not go and compare those two cases (UA-YU) as one is left stuck simplifying. Eastern ukranians just have to learn their lesson from mistakes of others and try to be as human as possible toward its enemies, keep their idea in mind (independance) and to be resolute. And people around the world will support it. Best.
“The question that begs a clear answer is whether armed conflict (while being basically foreseeable) was also an intended consequence of the processes that were set in motion. In the case of the Ukraine that is rather doubtful…”
I’ll have to disagree since I am convinced one aspect of this ZPC/NWO aggression against the Ukraine is to get Russian troops involved inside the Ukraine in order to use that as a pretext to isolate Russia economically and diplomatically.
If one looks at how the ZPC/NWO has conducted their war on the Ukraine, it is obvious they set out from the beginning to antagonise the east, to create some conflict there that could be used as “justification” for a crackdown.
Once that conflict was created, the way the ZPC/NWO has conducted their war makes it clear conquest was a secondary goal. The primary goal is terror of the population. This is to drive them out, like Israel did to Palestinians, and also to suck the Russian military into the Ukraine. Should the junta conquer Novorossia, then there will be little justification for the mass terror they are using, or for Russia to physically intervene. By keeping the war going, the ZPC/NWO is able to pursue its dual goals of ethnic cleansing and enticement of Russian intervention.
Had the Russian responded as the ZPC/NWO gamed it, Russia would be more isolated now, and some destabilization ops of the ZPC/NWO planned to coincide with this “new Russian aggression” in their allies and friends, to carve them off the growing multipolar block, would be more successful right now.
Likewise, the population of Europe would be more willing for a return to a “Russia as enemy” pov. While the ZPC/NWO has had success among their quisling regimes in getting Russia partially isolated, this lack of Russian cooperation on invading the Ukraine has so far foiled their attempt to isolate Russia from most governments, it’s friends and allies and from the people of the ZPC/NWO quisling regimes. So it is clear that Russia invading the Ukraine was a key part of the ZPC/NWO plan. and that by not doing so, Russia has caused that plan to falter.
The target for the ZPC/NWO assault on the Ukraine is Russia, the Ukraine is simply the tool. Much like the “ISIS” rubbish in Iraq, where the real targets of this ZPC/NWO aggression are Syria and Iran (as zio-quisling Obama just made clear), what they are thus able to do with Iraq being of a secondary nature.
вот так
I used to believe Soros was a really smart businessman, Then after following him a few years I realised this guys the biggest crook I have seen. In the case I followed closely, he got a lot of cheap shares and then they started to build a billion $$$ mine. He sold his shares near the top when the company raised cash. 2 years later after the mine was finished the company was bk and sold to the japanese for like under 50 mil. At one time the company was valued as having assets of over $30 bil. So whats 1 bil to build it up. So if he can be a crook when not much money is involved I can imagine the crookedness he would be involved in when real money is involved. He sure fooled millions of small time investors who trusted in the name.. No one noticed how he got out of it with a huge profit until far too late .
This is a fascinating article (and blog), thank you very much for sharing.
I’ve never been satisfied with the official or common narrative on Yugoslavia and its process of Balkinization. I was entering my teens when the war started and never quite understood the competing forces at play.
Could you (or anyone in the community) recommend any starting points, reading materials, books, or authors that could elaborate on the this subject.
Grateful, T.
Putin’s allies in Ukraine/Novorossiya?
He has replaced the leadership twice. Russians sent in firstly, then an adjustment set, now more Donbass natives fill the uncomfortable roles of leaders.
As for working with oligarchs, that is like sculpting with mercury. Surkov can’t get them to perform and they are his allies. Putin will have to get rid of them and Surkov. If Ukraine is to become safe for Russia, only Putin can be the master.
Putin’s internal Ukraine issue is: Russia is hated and there is no leadership on the ground politically.
This portends more military action which the militia does well and which Putin can control.
The best bet is Ukraine will be churned with war for the foreseeable future. It will be, overall, low intensity after the next big offensive by Kiev.
Winter and gas and the imploding Ukrainian economy will be the best allies Putin has in the short term.
Porochenko doesn’t physically look worn out and until he has some assassination attempts on him, he will serve the master in Washington. The junta will change at the edges, but the core is well-protected. Putin must feel he can manipulate the chocolate king for now, despite Washington pulling strings on the junta pig.
EU/USA goal is to hold Ukraine not splinter it. This is fundamentally different than the destruction of Yugoslavia.
Putin would like to fracture Ukraine internally, hollow it out politically, and embrace it as an inanimate whole in his Eurasian market. Basically, Ukraine will become a protected, inert entity. If pieces in the west Ukraine break off from that entity, they will be absorbed and protected by Poland/Hungary. Ukraine is a dead man walking.
Putin’s plan is to dictate Ukraine’s military future (no threat left to Russia), politically (obedient to Moscow) and economically (serving Russia’s needs) producing from its natural resources and paying its bills and ever-so slow development. Novoroissya will fast-develop because China has stakes there, as in Crimea.
Ultimately, Putin has to rid the Ukraine of the mafia oligarchs. The formula of using oligarchs for policy goals is fatally flawed. They have to go.
All these goals will take much longer than this year or next or the year or two after that.
Perhaps, Chechnya is a guide to look at. How long has it taken for Russia to feel comfort with the notion and reality of Chechnya as a dependable entity it can trust? Putin turned it from enemy to ally, but it took time. Ukraine will be no faster.
The essential difference is that Russia has simply more power than Serbia to defend itself, period.
And while Jelzin was corrupt enough to cooperate in the yugoslavisation of the Soviet Union, Putin does not cooperate in the bosnification of the Ukraine, which was meant to serbify Russia and eventually milosevic himself.
Thank you Haze for saying it with clarity and clearly. I second your statement.
EX-YU (Macedonian)
P.S.
I stopped reading the BS article after that point. Thank you Stephen, , but you cant educate me about this subject, nor You can tell me something of value obviously.
Anti NWO
Not to let the mass media falls into foreign hand is absolutely important . Control of the mass media allow the western criminal to spin every story in the news to the advantage of the capitalist warmongers.
Who control the mass media controls the public opinion . There should laws preventing the mass media of a country to be taken over by the western criminals.
Andrew
Spot on analysis.
The other byproduct is it squeezes out China if it comes to fruition. Food and energy deprivation.
You can add Iraq in there as well. The US purposely created divides that really radicalized people along tribal, religious, social order.
How is the US going to target the ISIS when they are supported by the sunnis who are former bathists? They are outlawed from government work and allowance. Yet we dont hear anything about reconciliation here. How can the US fight a so called enemy when they themselves created a multi million person enemy. This alone proves the US don’t want to change things. Heck the US shot former iraq soldiers asking for their money.
Colonel Lang in his post presidential speech remarks indicated that one thing that would need to be done to isolate ISIL within Iraq would be to entice the Sunni tribes away from them. This followed his assessment of the difficulty that the new Iraqi unity government will have when trying to appoint the new leadership for the Ministries of Defense and Interior.
One thing that would go a long way to assisting with actually building both a unity government and reorienting the Sunni tribes back towards Iraq would be the passing of the Iraqi de-Baathification Law of 2010** and the rescinding of the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) de-Baathification Edict of 2003.
Per the CPA’s own edicts, any rule, regulation, edict, etc that they promulgated could never be undone by any future Iraqi government. So the US which imposed these rules on all future variants of Iraq will have to rescind this rule in addition to any action the Iraqi government would take.
I am not so optimistic. In Croatia first an armistice was closed and the Serbian was forced to withdraw. Then we saw 3 years where Croatia strengthened its army. And then there was a new attack. It is rumored that Serbia was threatened with NATO attacks if it interfered in Operation Storm.
In a recent article (http://blogs.pravda.com.ua/authors/lucenko/540c20ffeeb44/) Poroshenko’s party leader Lutsenko pled for a similar scenario as what the Croats had done. I consider it likely that his ideas have been developed in consultation with US advisors. Already we have seen that NATO forced Putin to a truce and we can expect that the pressure will stay on. Poroshenko already contently declared that 70% of the Russian soldiers had returned home.
I love when people start talking about Serbian hegemony in the former Yugoslavia. I don’t know who comes up with this shit. 60 percent of the Yugoslav citizens were Serbs, the capital was in Serbia and Serbia had twice given its blood and treasure to save Croatia and Slovenia from occupation and reparations (first in 1918 and then in 1945).
The problem that a lot of commie loving Tito fans dont want to aknowledge is the fact that the partisans were fighting the germans and the other factions in a civil war. WWII was not simply a fight against the fashist occupiers (italy and germany) but also against the different factions whether they were the nazi pupet regiemes or the communists.
The Communist killed over 200k right after the war thats on top all the killings they did during the war. With the exeption that they killed based on class and political affiliation.
Civil wars are dirty things.
Anonyomous (11 September, 2014 14:45):
I was a little older than you were when war raged in Yugoslavia. I was sceptical of the American medias black-hat/white-hat narrative from the start. But back then, I never knew the half of it. Here’s a book that opened my eyes:
Fools’ Crusade: Yugoslavia, Nato, and Western Delusions
by Diana Johnstone
http://www.amazon.com/Fools-Crusade-Yugoslavia-Western-Delusions/dp/158367084X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1410458314&sr=1-1&keywords=diana+johnstone
Enjoy!
Once again, Saker, excellent work. I love your analysis. That’s why I keep coming back to this site.
There is, of course, one very significant (fateful?) difference between Russia and Serbia here: namely, Russia is VASTLY more powerful and influential than Serbia ever could be. Washington is going after the big game now: countries like Russia and China which can actually defend themselves. Oh, why are we ruled by such utter cretins!
As always, God bless the freedom-loving people of Novorossia!
HAZE, you are trying to excuse barbaric ethnic clansing of the Serbs by the Croats, as well as horrific crimes of the Muslims. Fact is that Croatia butchered or ethnically clansed all the Serbs who inhabited regions within Croatian borders (These borders have been created by the communists and included Serbian ethnic territories in order to cripple Serbian state and nation) . Croatians did not want to grant selfdetermination right to Serbs in these territories, they and their masters insisted that selfdetermination is for Croatians only, while subjugation is for the Serbs. After Croatians declared themselves indipendant from Yugoslavia, Serbs in Croatia and later Bosnia declared themselves indipendant from these genocidal states. Surely, they wanted to join Serbia proper (this is what they fought for, not for Yugolavia ) and they had full moral right to do so. While Serbs were able to defend themselves against Croatians and Muslims, they were not able to resist the NATO that backed both Croatians and Muslims and anyone wishing to kill the Serbs. Milosevic thought that he could save Serbia proper from the most horrible destruction by betraying the Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia. Russia with drunken Jeltsin slept, so it was a free season on Serbs. Today Serbs-Free Croatia is not the consequence of Croatian strength, but consequence of their rediness to side with whoever is a stronger aggressor. This rediness that they share with the Bosnian Muslims is in my view not caused by the religion, but based on fact that a substantial portion of Croats and nearly all Bosnian Muslims are converts who left the Christian Ortodox faith ( not out of personal coviction but under pressure or for sake of getting an advantage on their brothers and sisters. ) Indeed, Croatians not coming from Ortodox defectors are mainly very kind and friendly people. Unfortunately for the Serbs, substantial portion of Croats are Ortodox converts (most of them know very well when the conversion took place and because they had to deny their historical identity their Croatiness is based exclusively on genocidal hater toowards their Serbian Ortodox Brothers. Now, the only reason why You and those like you are on this Forum is that you feel the wind of change. Soon You will be ready to betray your American and German masters (you will deny you have ever sung “Danke Deutschland”, laughed on Russia and enjoyed the humiliation of Serbia and will want to join the opposite side). As a Serbian nationalist, I would like to ensure you that we do not consider you to be Serbs. You are a betrayer and will always stay just that.
Serbian girl
@ EX-YU (Macedonian)
Поздрав, не знаев дека има и други Mакедонци што го читаат блогов на Сакер.
On topic:
I am appalled by the arrogance and outright stupidity of Slavic peoples. We always seem to base our actions on emotions, not thinking of the consequences. We’re such an easy mark to play “divide and conquer” with! Myself and other Macedonians included.
Invented nations?!
All nations are invented at a certain point in history. The Portuguese were once Spanish until a French king ruling Portugal invented the Portuguese language. Today it’s not a big deal, a non-issue. Both nations exist and cooperate as neighbors.
I cannot believe that any serious analyst can disregard the struggle of the people that called themselves “Macedonian” and frequently rebelled against the Ottomans. Yes, Macedonia as a state didn’t exist before 1945, but the idea of a separate Macedonian state existed for generations. Kurds are a good example of this. Their ethnicity is not questionable because thus far they didn’t have their own state, it’s accepted as being self-evident. Not so in the Balkans, I’m sorry to say. I hate that most of us call each other “Orthodox Slav brothers”, but as soon as ethnofiletism kicks-in, we forget all about “brotherhood” and Christianity in general, science and history even… We’re an easy target for the Anglos and the Germans. They don’t need to fight us, all they need to do is give us a little push to fight each other, we’re always happy to oblige.
Also, much as I stand with Novorosiya and their righteous struggle against the fascist junta in Kiev, I think it was all avoidable if people in charge had respect for the analytical thinking of the genius of Solzhenitsyn who almost prophetically anticipated the things that are about to happen in Ukraine. If there were rulers that listened to the genii of such caliber, we’d avoid these fratricidal wars. Sadly – there rarely (if ever) are. I still hope that Putin is one, but I’m still on the fence on that one.
BTW, when you find an American that hates the English with such a zeal like the one shown between the Balkan nations, I’m all ears. Or a Kiwi hating the Canadians, or an Aussie hating the Americans…No this kind of blind hatred is reserved for us Slavs. Sad and ridiculous.
Divide and rule is an ancient technique utilised by elites to rule over their exploited home populations, by invaders and colonialists to suppress the indigenous populations (if genocide was not preferred), by parasitic tribes and other groups to control the host populations of societies they infest and, in recent times, by Uncle Satan to destroy target states. What the USA did in Yugoslavia, and then in Iraq and Libya, Syria, Lebanon etc is quite literally diabolical. Humanity cannot have any long-term future as long as these ‘exceptionalist’ psychopaths dominate the planet from their tiny enclaves of privilege inside the rapidly collapsing ruin of their country. With US aggression growing almost exponentially, in five years, perhaps less, Putin will have gone the way of Allende, Milosevic, Chavez, Lumumba et al, or he will be a world historical figure of colossal significance. By now it must be long plain that every decent, rational, human being must make working for the end of the Real Evil Empire a life or death priority for humanity.
Alien Tech, Uncle Satan ain’t gonna destroy his creation IS/ISIS/ISIL, just like he never harmed his other Frankenstein monster, ‘al-Qaeda’. al-Qaeda served its master well in Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Algeria, Mali, Nigeria, Lebanon, Xinjiang etc, sometimes under new aliases, but always doing its Master’s bidding. The USA will bomb IS a little, then create an excuse to turn its terror on Syria, and bomb the takfiris to power, just as they did under false pretenses in Libya. Nothing is more certain. It’s a nice touch of exquisitely cynical hypocrisy for the Empire of Chaos to enlist ISIL’s creators, Saudi Arabia and the other scurvy Sunni medieval despotisms, to destroy their own offsprin.
One of the greatest talks ever given was Michael Parenti’s 1999 analysis on the US War Against Yugoslavia. In it he explains the real reasons why the US has been doing what it has since WW2.
This article touches some of the reasons why Ukraine today resembles Yugoslavia in the 1990s: It is the total destruction of a sovereign nation for the benefit of the Genocidal Empire and it’s ruling class. By studying what happened to Yugoslavia, maybe Ukraine can be saved from the dire fate of Yugoslavia.
http://www.escapetopatagonia.com/TheU.S.WarAgainstYugoslavia.mp3
Andrew, your list of reasons for Western support for the Nazi attack on eastern Ukraine are, in my opinion, quite convincing. Whenever in doubt about future Western moves I always imagine the most vicious possible actions, those that a psychopath might commit with their lack of compassion and empathy and lust to dominate and harm others, and, marvelous to behold, that is what they will do, every time. The bedrock of this psychology, I would say, is fear and hatred of others, which must have endowed some selective advantage on our hominid forebears on the savannah, and remains hideously intact in our hominid masters to this day.
To the saker
So does Russia having a clearer vision of itself (as depicted in the Olympics), with the resultant health and power, enable other groups that used to/are still in relationship with Russia to have a clearer vision of themselves?
Did the Novorussian vision of what they could become reflect the health of the Russian vision? and did the Serbian lack of vision also reflect the disarray and lack of vision in Russia??
If so, a multi-polar world is well on the way.
@ 4. “by giving free reign to their Croat and Muslim protégés the instigators of the Yugoslav crisis may have inadvertently created a clear existential threat to Serbs” – couldn`t disagree more – Serbs in Croatia were offered wide autonomy, but Serbian moto was “all Serbs in one state” and “Serbia is wherever a Serbian grave is”, all relating to “Greater Serbia” concept http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Serbia . In fact Serbs were armed by Yugoslav army in which Serbs were wast majority. In 1991, areas in Croatia where Serbs were majority were ethnically cleansed of all other nationalities and towns within reach of artillery were shelled (does that ring a bell regarding situation in Ukraine?)
Russia must make a clear decision,whether it wants to protect the Russian and Russian-speaking people in the brother Ukrainian state.And if they are strong enough to do it.The Western sanctions are certainly meant to hurt Russia badly.And they appear to do just that.So the question is.Is Russia willing to accept that pain and do what is right.And stop what is surely an existential threat to Russia itself.The junta is clearly massing their troops and weapons for an offensive on Novorossii.Meant to finish them once and for all.Frankly I don’t know if Novorossii can survive and beat them without massive Russian aid.And with the power of the 5th column inside Russia’s elite.Can Putin disregard those and send that aid,and does he even want to.This is another of the many moments in Russia’s existence that they’ve faced the choice Churchill talked about along the lines of “you had a choice of war or shame.You chose shame,and got war as well”.Leaving aside Novorossii.Having a NATO and neo-nazi influenced Ukraine on Russia’s border.Can and will lead to nothing but future war.Destroying the junta and liberating Ukraine.Will lead quickly to a serious Cold War.Those are Russia’s choices.There isn’t really a viable third one that I see.Creating a tiny mini-state in Donetsk and Luhansk won’t save Russia from heavier and heavier sanctions.And it leaves 95% of Ukraine to NATO.Not a good choice for Russia.So still the question is .Does Russia have the strength,and Putin the will to secure Russia from NATO.And that question is going to have to be answered very soon.Any day the junta could strike.They are probably thinking Russia is cowed by these sanctions and won’t react.We’ll see if they are right I guess.
@Saker no point in sending messages about the truth in Yugoslavia, the media propaganda here is in on the level of Goebbels, you can’t come through most of ‘Bosniaks'(Muslims) and Croats, but thank you for sharing your view.
@hAZE look at the demographic map of Yugoslavia before WWI, before WWII, in 1991 and now, do you see disapearing of Serbs? You can see the same thing with other nations, but it’s most noticable in case of Serbs. I see that as a century old aggression by the west(mostly germans), through their collaborators (Croats, MUslims, Albanians, etc.). Next, there are multiple ideas of a ‘Great Serbia’, the 1st photo, of your link, is Seseljs idea of Great Serbia, and you are talking about the ‘Great Serbia’ of Garasanin. Garasanin’s idea was about reviving the territory of middle age Serbia, forming a strong and independent state between Austro-Hungaria and the Russian empire, uniting all Serbs in that country and helping countries surrounding Serbia in fight against occupants(Austro-Hungary and Turkey) and forming a unity with Serbia (which is the only free state in that time), creating finally a South-Slavic unity (that’s my view, after I read Nacertanije). About Seseljs model, it’s different, making a basis that all Bosnians are Serbs(Catholic encyclopedia says of 98% of Bosnians being Serbs in the XIX century, check on internet) + Serbs in Krajina(which lived in Croatia since the Turk invasion, and Croats gived them land to live and in return they will defend it and so defend Croatia, meaning, they will be cannon fire). I do think that some, at least 60% of Croats are Serbs without knowing that, and most Muslims are also, but my point of view is like Putins, if you want to be that, it’s ok, it’s your choice, it’s better to let you live in your own country than have you in my country against your will, forcing you to be what you will and creating possible future problems. Frankly speaking, I don’t see whats wrong with the idea of Serbs living in one country, then in, like today, 3-4 (not counting Kosovo), and in all these countries, their government is forcing a policy to get rid of them(counting Kosovo). The ‘surprising’ part is that the main country, Serbia, is doing nothing to defend them. One question, wouldn’t Croats from Bosnia like to join/unite with Croatia, and Bosniaks in Raska also like to be a part of Bosnia? I don’t see a problem here also, if we can’t live together in one state (Yugoslavia), why don’t we simply split in a couple states in which we have our nations are completely seperate (maybe except some minorities), than have a couple of ‘Yugoslavias’. About the war in YU, it’s more than obvious what it was, and I 100% agree with Saker, and if you can’t figure it out objectively by yourself and add up 2+2, then you’re truly hypocritical.
@Serbian girl I agree with you except one part. Serbs are stupid, they believed in Yugoslavia to the end and still do, and they will give again 25% of their population for another Yugoslavia, and again, and again… My point of view is this, Serbia + Republica Srpska + Krajina(with Serbs back) + Montenegro + Serbian part of Macedonia = one state, Yugoslavia = NEVER AGAIN (except if all other countries are ready to give 25% of their population, individually, and Serbia is the one country which is against uniting, needs convincing, not dying AND gets same rights as all other countries in the newformed country, if ALL these conditions are filled, then I’ll be the first person who sings the national anthem of that country)
To Anonymous; 11 September, 2014 14:36
Here is 2hrs documentary by Boris Malagurski: The Weight of Chains
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waEYQ46gH08
The movie is divided in 5 sections: History of Yugoslavia; Croatian war; war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, war on Kosovo and Serbia; the role of USA and EU in disintegration of Yugoslavia.
(While I don’t agree with all comments and interpretations in this docs, factually it is correct. I would include some events which BM has left out, but so would any of 24 mil. ex-Yugoslavs.)
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Cheers, hAZE. Right said!
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To Anonymous; 13 September, 2014; 17:32
I would not approve annexation of any part of B&H, no matter how many ethnic Croats live there. IMO, ethnically clean states stink to heaven high on Goebbels. Besides, in Yugoslavia the right to self-determination up to secession was granted on Republics, not on peoples. (Got it, Serbian girl?)
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Off topic: on one Balkan site, someone posted a comment which was widely forwarded:
“I was watching a porn, and I scrolled down to read some comments. Sure enough, soon some jerks started arguing about who started the war, Serbs or Croats. Motherf*ers, ain’t there anything sacred to you!”