If the zionist neocons really were lobbying for the invasion of Iraq it has backfired on them since Iraq has now become an Iranian satellite whereas Saddam Hussein was a secular enemy of Iran.
Yes it seems to have backfired. But while it may seem like a dumb idea, the original neocon plan was that Iraq would only be one of many invaded nations. “Everyone wants to go to Baghdad, but real men want to go to Tehran”
The idea was that from Iraq, they could destabilize (AKA bring democracy to) Syria and Iran, or use it as a springboard for attack.
@Robert & Lysander: you remember the news story that Chalabi was an Iranian agent? That would make sense to me. The Iranians new that the Neocons were gunning for a major war, so the choice was either Iran or Iraq, and by using Chalabi & Co. the Iranians literally deflected the US strike from Iran to Iraq. If that theory is correct, that operation would be one of the biggest intelligence coups of all times. Think of it: using the fanaticisms (and stupidity) of the Israelis, the Neocons and the Israel Lobby to get the USA to eliminate two of the worst enemies of Iran: the Iraqi Baathists and the Taliban.
Unlike many others, I have nevered considered the Israelis or their US Lobby as particularly intelligent or capable. Ruthless – yes. Driven – yes. Obsessive/compulsive – yes. Corrupt and corrupting – yes. Tactically savvy – very. But intelligent? Nope. Strategically thinking? Nope. Easy to dupe? Absolutely.
The entire issue of the Iranian role in the invasion of Iraq has been rapidly shoved down the memory hole as literally NOBODY has any interest in keeping it alive: not the Yanks, not the Israelis, for sure not the idiots at AIPAC/ADL & Co., and not the Iranians themselves. But the fact remains – the main source of pre-war (pseudo-) intelligence which justified the war was an Iranian agent of influence.
@CH: The Iranian regime is disintegrating, even you must have trouble denying this by now.
Actually I don’t think so at all. I see no sign of “disintegration” whatsoever.
However, trying to hijack a religious holiday or the death of a man in order to claim that all those who attended either events are some kind of “opposition” is, I think, I sign of mental disintegration and a clear admission of weakness.
And I also disagree that Khamenei is a “joke”, but I do fully agree with yo that Iranians are not afraid of him.
Sorry, but the Gucci-revolution failed and the government did not even have to use its real force (the Pasdaran) to stop the riots. Even though the Guccis did use a lot of very real greviences of the Iranian people and even though the corporate media monolithically supported the Guccis – this color coded revolution failed to achieve anything.
Venezuela and Iran are two countries which have proven that the people of a country can defeat the imperial goals and strategies of the US Empire. Make not mistake, if Ahmadinejad and Chavez did not have real popular support they never would have been able to survive these color-coded putch attempts. But they did, to your great frustration and to my great joy, I have to say.
I just open that Morales is prepared to face the same test and that the people of Honduras will do whatever it takes to return Zelaya to power.
“However, trying to hijack a religious holiday or the death of a man in order to claim that all those who attended either events are some kind of “opposition” is, I think, I sign of mental disintegration and a clear admission of weakness.”
Understandably, if a man like Montazeri, who is widely respected as a religious leader, is attacked by Khamenei, his supporters are going to protest–its only natural. As for the need to come out during Ashoura, well, that is also going to happen when police break up gatherings of 4-5 people. Every major rally the regime holds during the year has been dismantled and turned against it by the opposition, including “Quds Day” and the anniversary of the US embassy seizure, which is basically just “Death to America Day”.
The refusal to accept Ahmadinejad has lasted over 6 months now…and no amount of rape, torture, imprisonment, or even death is going to make the young people of Iran (and many older people too) like him, his grotesque “morality police”, or his misguided policies. The “Marg bar Amreeka” card went out with Khomeini back in the 1980’s. Iranians revolt against the “Islamic Republic” every time they wear western clothes and download western music…and its taking its toll on the regime.
“Venezuela and Iran are two countries which have proven that the people of a country can defeat the imperial goals and strategies of the US Empire.”
I don’t know about you, but I don’t consider Tehran University students to be agents of the “US Empire”.
“Make not mistake, if Ahmadinejad and Chavez did not have real popular support they never would have been able to survive these color-coded putch attempts. But they did, to your great frustration and to my great joy, I have to say.”
Far from true. Saddam Hussein faced a revolt in 14 of Iraq’s 18 provinces back in 1991 and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people on separate occasions…and he managed to survive. The Iranian regime has failed in quelling the protests…and has now resorted to assassinated political enemies like Mohammadi, the professor, and blaming it on “foreign forces”…just as they did with Neda Agha Sultan and the dozens of others. No ones’ buying it…except for hypocrites who rail against America while living here.
As for your joy…if you get satisfaction out of seeing unarmed young Iranians beaten down on the streets, and if you are happy to see women enslaved by headscarves, then you have allowed your hatred of America to turn you into a very evil person. Do you live in America BTW? If so, shame on you for wishing Khamenei on the brave Iranians who are rotting inside Evin Prison while you criticize a country many of them would give anything to live in. If only you could switch places with them. Just think, you could shore up the Basiji when they rally for Khamenei.
@CH: The “Marg bar Amreeka” card went out with Khomeini back in the 1980’s. Iranians revolt against the “Islamic Republic” every time they wear western clothes and download western music…and its taking its toll on the regime.
Telling admission ideed. First, that “Marg bar Amreeka” “went out” in the 1980s, at least in your imagination. That pretty much sums it all up. That, and the idea that downloading Hannah Montana is a threat to “the regime”. I cannot think of a better illustration of the shallow and fundamentally pro-USraelien ideology underlying this entire “Gucci revolution” (nevermind that Mousavi and Rafsanjani made their careers exactly on “Marg bar Amreeka” and that their late conversion to the cause of the Hannah Montana crowd is less than totally genuine).
You ought to realize that this color coded Gucci revolution had exactly nothing to do with freedom, democracy, human rights or rap. It had everything to do with a real coup attempt by Rafsanjani against Khamenei (note: not Mousavi against Ahmadinejad – the former being a puppet and the latter having no real power). Rafsanjani attempted to overthrow the Islamic Republic and for that goal he enlisted all the frustration one can find in Iran, from the normal people fed up with poverty, to the Gucci students and their iPod dreams. So yes, Mousavi did have a constituency just like the opposition to Chavez did have a constituency. But what you subbornly refuse to admit is that this pro-coup constituency was a MINORITY. hence all the desperate nonsense about “the regime” blowing one of his own scientists (such a dumb theory that even intelligent opponents of the current government immediately realized how stupid that is).
No, CH, ever word you say, every argument you use shows only one thing: the desperate and frustrated weakness of the defeated forces you support. If “the regime” was in any danger at all, you would not have to resort to such silly arguments as you have.
@CH: one more thing: look at all the other leaders of color-coded revolutions – none of them ever openly said “yes, we are pro-American” (well, Yushchenko and Saakashvili came very close, of course). They always said that a) we are patriots and b) we are for freedom. And the “useful idiots” who supported them all had dreams of designer jeans and iPods and, in a very shallow way, they were sincere. But look what that brought to their countries? Do you really think that the Ukraine, Georgia or Lebanon – to name a few – are countries which Iran should emulate? What about Serbia or Kyrgyzstan?
“That pretty much sums it all up. That, and the idea that downloading Hannah Montana is a threat to “the regime”.
Aside from the fact that I have never met an Iranian–and I know many–who watches “Hannah Montana”, I’d have to say that even if it were true, a TV show about independent girls not wearing the hijab sounds like something that would give Khamenei a heart attack–right into the depths of Jahannum where he belongs.
“I cannot think of a better illustration of the shallow and fundamentally pro-USraelien ideology”
Again–there’s no evidence to suggest that the millions of Iranians who have taken part in protests at one time or another during the last 6 months are getting orders from the USA…on the contrary, Obama and many other western leaders have expressed indifference to the suffering in Iran. But in the end, what’s wrong with being pro-US? Is it bad that Iranians desire the freedoms that you have? (Including your freedom to wish religious tyranny over them)
“Mousavi and Rafsanjani made their careers exactly on “Marg bar Amreeka”
No argument there…but 70 percent of Iranians were born AFTER the “Islamic Revolution” came into play.
“You ought to realize that this color coded Gucci revolution had exactly nothing to do with freedom, democracy, human rights or rap. It had everything to do with a real coup attempt by Rafsanjani against Khamenei”
I think that a lot of forces within the regime itself are trying to capitalize on the upheaval. Personally I think the IRGC has emerged as the strongest authority in this conflict…and will consolidate power as the opposition against Khamnenei grows. But I can assure you that for most people who support freedom for Iranians, this has absolutely nothing to do with Rafsanjani…or Mousavi for that matter. Human nature dictates that we don’t want to live in a society that is ruled from a holy book written hundreds of years ago and where an all-powerful dictatorship watches you while you sleep. I have Iranian friends who are too afraid to use their cell phones…is that the type of thing you are “joyful” over?
“But what you subbornly refuse to admit is that this pro-coup constituency was a MINORITY. hence all the desperate nonsense about “the regime” blowing one of his own scientists (such a dumb theory that even intelligent opponents of the current government immediately realized how stupid that is).”
And suggesting that American and Israeli intelligence killed him isn’t ridiculous? Seriously, if the US was running assassination squads inside of Iran, why would they go after a pro-Mousavi reformist who had very little, if ANYTHING, to do with the country’s nuclear program? If they can get into the country, why not go after the IRGC or real nuclear scientists? On the other hand, Khamenei, the Basiji, and the IRGC have everything to gain by assassinating Mohammadi…they take out an opponent, instill fear in reformist professors, get to blame the growing opposition, and resuscitate “Marg bar Amreeka”–which, I will admit, is apparently alive and well…here in America.
@CH: “Marg bar Amreeka”–which, I will admit, is apparently alive and well…here in America
If by “Amkreeka” one means the country itself or its people, then no. But that is not what this slogan meant originally either. Originally, the slogan referred to the Imperial ideology, the political system, the complex of methods used to subvert and subjugate other countries. And yes, in THIS sense, “Marg bar Amreeka” is alive in well in the USA, thanks God! Americans are getting sick and tired of what is done in their name and they are fedup with the parasitical plutocracy which has taken over the USA. Good for them!
Human nature dictates that we don’t want to live in a society that is ruled from a holy book written hundreds of years ago and where an all-powerful dictatorship watches you while you sleep.
Bingo! Yet another interestig admission: your anti-Islamic, secularist, ideology. I sure see that not being Muslim (no real Muslim would utter than kind of words) you would have a beef with the *Islamic* Republic. But this also shows that the so-called “freedom agenda” is, in fact, an anti-Islamic agenda. Now, it is darn clear why a majority if Iranians want nothing to do with your brand of “freedom”, which is only the freedom by and for secularists, not a freedom to live in an Islamic Republic according to the Shia faith.
Good thing for everybody that you live in the USA and not in Iran. I say – enjoy your life here and let those who want to live in an Islamic Republic live as they wish. Leave them alone and stop pretending like they want to be like you – they don’t. Iran already had the dubious “opportunity” to live under the Western puppet Pahlavi (yet another pseudo-Muslim pro-Amkreeka billionaire secularist) and the gave him the boot. They did not want your model then, and they don’t want it today. If you are for “people power” accept that the said people do not agree with you and let them live as they want.
“Bingo! Yet another interestig admission: your anti-Islamic, secularist, ideology. I sure see that not being Muslim (no real Muslim would utter than kind of words) you would have a beef with the *Islamic* Republic. But this also shows that the so-called “freedom agenda” is, in fact, an anti-Islamic agenda.”
I could consider myself a secularist, yes…but anti-Islamic? No. There are plenty of Muslims in the world who do not want to be ruled by 7th century dogma, Iran is no exception. Unfortunately, they are usually blown up for it by the minority who believe in the above. Saying that Khamenei represents Islam is like saying that the Taliban and Al-Qaeda also do. Its like claiming that the “Islamic State of Iraq” is really doing God’s work when they strike “The Den of Infidelity” (daycare centers, markets, etc).
“Iran already had the dubious “opportunity” to live under the Western puppet Pahlavi (yet another pseudo-Muslim pro-Amkreeka billionaire secularist) and the gave him the boot.”
Weren’t you just screaming at Hondurans for throwing out Zelaya a few comments above? LOL. This isn’t about Iranians for you…its about you wanting to see demise of the United States, at least in its current form. You see Iranians as a means to an end…for example, Khamenei and Ahmadinejad have given support to Palestine, so you will support them no matter what they do. Most Iranians weren’t even alive during the time of the Shah…what they have been alive for though, is a sadistic government that stones homosexuals, executes for conversion to Islam, and has taken Persia–once the most advanced countries in the world–into the dark ages while the rest of the world modernizes.
“Good thing for everybody that you live in the USA and not in Iran. I say – enjoy your life here and let those who want to live in an Islamic Republic live as they wish. Leave them alone”
Please…I don’t think you would stand behind a word of this. If protests broke out across Saudi Arabia tomorrow demanding an end to Wahabbi rule, freedom for Shiites, and gender equality, you would be cheering for those seeking freedom, just as I would. And why would you do so? Because the collapse of the House of Saud would mean the US could lose any “ally”! Same thing with Egypt and Jordan. I firmly believe that many of these countries fear democracy in Iran because it could weaken their rule, don’t you?
“Americans are getting sick and tired of what is done in their name and they are fedup with the parasitical plutocracy which has taken over the USA. Good for them!”
And, as you can clearly tell, IRANIANS are getting sick and tired of what is being done in their name and they are fedup with their government’s refusal to stop isolating itself from the West and rule them under a perverted form of a religion that many of them adhere too.
They are tired of the madness that has consumed their country.
“They did not want your model then, and they don’t want it today.”
I’ve marched with over a thousand Iranian Americans here in my home city. When I join them in saying “Marg bar dictator!” I mean it…whether its Khamenei or the Shah.
1) The opposition claims massive fraud in the June 12 vote. Since then, the government has posted the results of each ballot box online. Has any of the 10’s of thousands of volunteer election workers disputed the results that they have seen? Did any claim that the ballot boxes were stolen? Or stuffed? That men with guns took them away?
2) Have any of Mussavi’s 40,000 observers disputed those results or claim that they were not allowed to be present for the count?
3) in the 2-3 days following the election, I heard numerous rumors of IRGC/Basiji stealing ballot boxes. Then the rumors died. Why hasn’t anyone verified them since?
4) In Mussavi’s formal complaint to the Gaurdian council, he made no allegations at all about any of the above events taking place. He offered no credible explanation about how the vote was rigged. Why not?
5) Can you construct a plausible scenario on how the government could rig an election in which 45 million people voted without thousands of witnesses seeing it?
An answer of “everybody is scared to speak out” is insufficient as there seem to be no shortage of people brave enough to confront security forces. It also would not explain why Mussavi does not claim he has many such witnesses but they are afraid to step forward.
Thank You
P.S. I have no doubt you can recite a litany of IRI government abuses. Feel free to do so here if you want, but please do address any, or even one of the questions above.
@CH: Saying that Khamenei represents Islam is like saying that the Taliban and Al-Qaeda also do
I never said that, if only because Islam lack a unified corpus of dogmatic theology which could be referred to in trying to establish who, if anybody, “represents” Islam. What I do believe is that most Iranians are quite happy with the type of Republic and Shia religion which Khamenei represents. For me, this has nothing to do with dogma, only with the right of people to live as they want. And you are quite mistaken if you think that I would want to forcibly remove the Wahabi crazies who are running the KSA. If that is really what the Saudis like – let them have it.
Weren’t you just screaming at Hondurans for throwing out Zelaya a few comments above?
Dude, let me tell you that the “Hondurans” did not “throw out” Zelaya – were did you get your facts – from the Heritage Foundation?! Zelaya was overthrown by the Honduran Guccis and with the direct patronage and supervision of the USA. If the Hondurans had voted Zelaya out of office I would have no bones with that. Look at Chile – today the Chileans voted for a multi-billionaire “Gucci-type” President. I say – let them have it. I have no problems with that either.
But you are just like the US State Department – when a peopel does not vote like you like, you simply declare the elections rigged and that’s it.
Too bad for you that a) most Iranians don’t agree with you and b) that Iran is not Honduras and that the Empire – and you – will have to live in frustrated rage that you cannot simply use force to remove those whose values you abhor.
You pose some interesting questions…some of which I have heard before, others I have not, until now. Keep in mind that neither of us live in Iran, so I only go by what I’ve heard from people who actually do and conclusions I’ve drawn from talking to them.
“Has any of the 10’s of thousands of volunteer election workers disputed the results that they have seen? Did any claim that the ballot boxes were stolen? Or stuffed? That men with guns took them away?”
I do not know much about the “volunteer” election workers in Iran…its very difficult to tell exactly who these people are when the only people permitted to cover the developments freely are Press TV, Tehran Times, and other state-administered media. News outlets, including Arabic media, have been severely restricted in Iran and, as far as I can tell, many journalists are still prevented from covering anything pertaining to the election or the protests.
“Have any of Mussavi’s 40,000 observers disputed those results or claim that they were not allowed to be present for the count?”
I do not know…I also don’t know of a single incident where they have verified it.
“in the 2-3 days following the election, I heard numerous rumors of IRGC/Basiji stealing ballot boxes. Then the rumors died. Why hasn’t anyone verified them since?”
Quite a lot happened in the 2-3 days following the elections…there were all kinds of reports and rumors flying around. The IRI did an efficient job at shutting down the flow of information and continues to do so. Its impossible for a media figure who is not sympathetic to the regime to do an investigative report about this. Most importanly, I’ve never really believed that ballot stuffing was used in the election…I think the result was already planned–Khamenei and the IRGC never had any intention of allowing Ahmadinejad to be voted out of office. The fact that the election results were announced practically as the ballots closed (in an election without electronic votes) affirms this accusation, in my opinion.
“Can you construct a plausible scenario on how the government could rig an election in which 45 million people voted without thousands of witnesses seeing it?”
“And you are quite mistaken if you think that I would want to forcibly remove the Wahabi crazies who are running the KSA. If that is really what the Saudis like – let them have it.”
So why can’t Iranians have their freedom? I don’t want the US or any other country to forcefully remove Khamenei. As a Homo Sapiens, I have declared my full support to Iranians who have had enough and have done everything I can to help them my home city. Keep in mind that the Shah was overthrown because of a revolt, which you support, no?
“Zelaya was overthrown by the Honduran Guccis and with the direct patronage and supervision of the USA.”
If you have credible evidence the US was involved, please share it with me. What I know, is that Obama condemned Zelaya’s overthrow the morning it happened…he launched a Press conference with the Colombian President as I remember. At the same time, Obama has said very little and kept his distance from the Iranian governments treatment of protesters.
“Too bad for you that a) most Iranians don’t agree with you”
How do you know?
“But you are just like the US State Department – when a peopel does not vote like you like, you simply declare the elections rigged and that’s it.”
Other than Iran, where have I said that? That’s quite an accusation to make.
“you – will have to live in frustrated rage that you cannot simply use force to remove those whose values you abhor.”
I’m in frustrated rage when I see people dying for basic values that people like you and I sometimes take for granted. If someone’s values calls for unarmed protesters to be shot dead and if their values encourage rape as an instrument of torture, then damn straigh I am angry and I abhor those values…and you can bet I will stand up against it.
@CH: What I know, is that Obama condemned Zelaya’s overthrow the morning it happened…he launched a Press conference with the Colombian President as I remember
A government denying involvement is not really proof, or even evidence, of non invovlvement. You are smart enough to know that.
Obama condemning a coup while his own army arms and trains the Honduran army really doesn’t. Mean much.
” I do not know…I also don’t know of a single incident where they have verified it. “
Silence implies consent.
“its very difficult to tell exactly who these people are when the only people permitted to cover the developments freely are Press TV, Tehran Times, and other state-administered media. News outlets, including Arabic media, have been severely restricted in Iran and, as far as I can tell, many journalists are still prevented from covering anything pertaining to the election or the protests. “
True enough after the elections. Not before. Before there was a very large international media presence. If there was a fraud plan in place in advance, there was every chance to catch it.
Again, please, if you know of any credible evidence that Obama was involved in Zelaya’s ouster, please do share it with me as I am very interested in hearing it.
“Again, please, if you know of any credible evidence that Obama was involved in Zelaya’s ouster, please do share it with me as I am very interested in hearing it.”
Well, we know that 1) US state department officials met with the coup plotters prior to the coup. 2) The coup plotters all trained at the Department of Defense run “School of the Americas. 3) The US trains and finances the Honduran military from the ground up.
We also know that while Obama quasi condemned the coup, the rest of the administration moved to rationalize it. The New York Times nearly praised it. Any hint of criticism had to be balanced by criticism of the previous government.
Now All that doesn’t constitute incontrovertible proof, I grant you, but it sure does look bad. If the Iranian opposition had anywhere near that much proof the elections were stolen, I might actually believe them.
If the zionist neocons really were lobbying for the invasion of Iraq it has backfired on them since Iraq has now become an Iranian satellite whereas Saddam Hussein was a secular enemy of Iran.
Yes it seems to have backfired. But while it may seem like a dumb idea, the original neocon plan was that Iraq would only be one of many invaded nations. “Everyone wants to go to Baghdad, but real men want to go to Tehran”
The idea was that from Iraq, they could destabilize (AKA bring democracy to) Syria and Iran, or use it as a springboard for attack.
Alas, either of these things are still possible.
@Robert & Lysander: you remember the news story that Chalabi was an Iranian agent? That would make sense to me. The Iranians new that the Neocons were gunning for a major war, so the choice was either Iran or Iraq, and by using Chalabi & Co. the Iranians literally deflected the US strike from Iran to Iraq. If that theory is correct, that operation would be one of the biggest intelligence coups of all times. Think of it: using the fanaticisms (and stupidity) of the Israelis, the Neocons and the Israel Lobby to get the USA to eliminate two of the worst enemies of Iran: the Iraqi Baathists and the Taliban.
Unlike many others, I have nevered considered the Israelis or their US Lobby as particularly intelligent or capable. Ruthless – yes. Driven – yes. Obsessive/compulsive – yes. Corrupt and corrupting – yes. Tactically savvy – very. But intelligent? Nope. Strategically thinking? Nope. Easy to dupe? Absolutely.
The entire issue of the Iranian role in the invasion of Iraq has been rapidly shoved down the memory hole as literally NOBODY has any interest in keeping it alive: not the Yanks, not the Israelis, for sure not the idiots at AIPAC/ADL & Co., and not the Iranians themselves. But the fact remains – the main source of pre-war (pseudo-) intelligence which justified the war was an Iranian agent of influence.
Amazing, no?
“Alas, either of these things are still possible.”
The Iranian regime is disintegrating, even you must have trouble denying this by now.
Khamenei is a joke…and Iranians are no longer afraid of him.
@CH: The Iranian regime is disintegrating, even you must have trouble denying this by now.
Actually I don’t think so at all. I see no sign of “disintegration” whatsoever.
However, trying to hijack a religious holiday or the death of a man in order to claim that all those who attended either events are some kind of “opposition” is, I think, I sign of mental disintegration and a clear admission of weakness.
And I also disagree that Khamenei is a “joke”, but I do fully agree with yo that Iranians are not afraid of him.
Sorry, but the Gucci-revolution failed and the government did not even have to use its real force (the Pasdaran) to stop the riots. Even though the Guccis did use a lot of very real greviences of the Iranian people and even though the corporate media monolithically supported the Guccis – this color coded revolution failed to achieve anything.
Venezuela and Iran are two countries which have proven that the people of a country can defeat the imperial goals and strategies of the US Empire. Make not mistake, if Ahmadinejad and Chavez did not have real popular support they never would have been able to survive these color-coded putch attempts. But they did, to your great frustration and to my great joy, I have to say.
I just open that Morales is prepared to face the same test and that the people of Honduras will do whatever it takes to return Zelaya to power.
“However, trying to hijack a religious holiday or the death of a man in order to claim that all those who attended either events are some kind of “opposition” is, I think, I sign of mental disintegration and a clear admission of weakness.”
Understandably, if a man like Montazeri, who is widely respected as a religious leader, is attacked by Khamenei, his supporters are going to protest–its only natural. As for the need to come out during Ashoura, well, that is also going to happen when police break up gatherings of 4-5 people. Every major rally the regime holds during the year has been dismantled and turned against it by the opposition, including “Quds Day” and the anniversary of the US embassy seizure, which is basically just “Death to America Day”.
The refusal to accept Ahmadinejad has lasted over 6 months now…and no amount of rape, torture, imprisonment, or even death is going to make the young people of Iran (and many older people too) like him, his grotesque “morality police”, or his misguided policies. The “Marg bar Amreeka” card went out with Khomeini back in the 1980’s. Iranians revolt against the “Islamic Republic” every time they wear western clothes and download western music…and its taking its toll on the regime.
“Venezuela and Iran are two countries which have proven that the people of a country can defeat the imperial goals and strategies of the US Empire.”
I don’t know about you, but I don’t consider Tehran University students to be agents of the “US Empire”.
“Make not mistake, if Ahmadinejad and Chavez did not have real popular support they never would have been able to survive these color-coded putch attempts. But they did, to your great frustration and to my great joy, I have to say.”
Far from true. Saddam Hussein faced a revolt in 14 of Iraq’s 18 provinces back in 1991 and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people on separate occasions…and he managed to survive. The Iranian regime has failed in quelling the protests…and has now resorted to assassinated political enemies like Mohammadi, the professor, and blaming it on “foreign forces”…just as they did with Neda Agha Sultan and the dozens of others. No ones’ buying it…except for hypocrites who rail against America while living here.
As for your joy…if you get satisfaction out of seeing unarmed young Iranians beaten down on the streets, and if you are happy to see women enslaved by headscarves, then you have allowed your hatred of America to turn you into a very evil person. Do you live in America BTW? If so, shame on you for wishing Khamenei on the brave Iranians who are rotting inside Evin Prison while you criticize a country many of them would give anything to live in. If only you could switch places with them. Just think, you could shore up the Basiji when they rally for Khamenei.
@CH: The “Marg bar Amreeka” card went out with Khomeini back in the 1980’s. Iranians revolt against the “Islamic Republic” every time they wear western clothes and download western music…and its taking its toll on the regime.
Telling admission ideed. First, that “Marg bar Amreeka” “went out” in the 1980s, at least in your imagination. That pretty much sums it all up. That, and the idea that downloading Hannah Montana is a threat to “the regime”. I cannot think of a better illustration of the shallow and fundamentally pro-USraelien ideology underlying this entire “Gucci revolution” (nevermind that Mousavi and Rafsanjani made their careers exactly on “Marg bar Amreeka” and that their late conversion to the cause of the Hannah Montana crowd is less than totally genuine).
You ought to realize that this color coded Gucci revolution had exactly nothing to do with freedom, democracy, human rights or rap. It had everything to do with a real coup attempt by Rafsanjani against Khamenei (note: not Mousavi against Ahmadinejad – the former being a puppet and the latter having no real power). Rafsanjani attempted to overthrow the Islamic Republic and for that goal he enlisted all the frustration one can find in Iran, from the normal people fed up with poverty, to the Gucci students and their iPod dreams. So yes, Mousavi did have a constituency just like the opposition to Chavez did have a constituency. But what you subbornly refuse to admit is that this pro-coup constituency was a MINORITY. hence all the desperate nonsense about “the regime” blowing one of his own scientists (such a dumb theory that even intelligent opponents of the current government immediately realized how stupid that is).
No, CH, ever word you say, every argument you use shows only one thing: the desperate and frustrated weakness of the defeated forces you support. If “the regime” was in any danger at all, you would not have to resort to such silly arguments as you have.
@CH: one more thing: look at all the other leaders of color-coded revolutions – none of them ever openly said “yes, we are pro-American” (well, Yushchenko and Saakashvili came very close, of course). They always said that a) we are patriots and b) we are for freedom. And the “useful idiots” who supported them all had dreams of designer jeans and iPods and, in a very shallow way, they were sincere. But look what that brought to their countries? Do you really think that the Ukraine, Georgia or Lebanon – to name a few – are countries which Iran should emulate? What about Serbia or Kyrgyzstan?
“That pretty much sums it all up. That, and the idea that downloading Hannah Montana is a threat to “the regime”.
Aside from the fact that I have never met an Iranian–and I know many–who watches “Hannah Montana”, I’d have to say that even if it were true, a TV show about independent girls not wearing the hijab sounds like something that would give Khamenei a heart attack–right into the depths of Jahannum where he belongs.
“I cannot think of a better illustration of the shallow and fundamentally pro-USraelien ideology”
Again–there’s no evidence to suggest that the millions of Iranians who have taken part in protests at one time or another during the last 6 months are getting orders from the USA…on the contrary, Obama and many other western leaders have expressed indifference to the suffering in Iran. But in the end, what’s wrong with being pro-US? Is it bad that Iranians desire the freedoms that you have? (Including your freedom to wish religious tyranny over them)
“Mousavi and Rafsanjani made their careers exactly on “Marg bar Amreeka”
No argument there…but 70 percent of Iranians were born AFTER the “Islamic Revolution” came into play.
“You ought to realize that this color coded Gucci revolution had exactly nothing to do with freedom, democracy, human rights or rap. It had everything to do with a real coup attempt by Rafsanjani against Khamenei”
I think that a lot of forces within the regime itself are trying to capitalize on the upheaval. Personally I think the IRGC has emerged as the strongest authority in this conflict…and will consolidate power as the opposition against Khamnenei grows. But I can assure you that for most people who support freedom for Iranians, this has absolutely nothing to do with Rafsanjani…or Mousavi for that matter. Human nature dictates that we don’t want to live in a society that is ruled from a holy book written hundreds of years ago and where an all-powerful dictatorship watches you while you sleep. I have Iranian friends who are too afraid to use their cell phones…is that the type of thing you are “joyful” over?
“But what you subbornly refuse to admit is that this pro-coup constituency was a MINORITY. hence all the desperate nonsense about “the regime” blowing one of his own scientists (such a dumb theory that even intelligent opponents of the current government immediately realized how stupid that is).”
And suggesting that American and Israeli intelligence killed him isn’t ridiculous? Seriously, if the US was running assassination squads inside of Iran, why would they go after a pro-Mousavi reformist who had very little, if ANYTHING, to do with the country’s nuclear program? If they can get into the country, why not go after the IRGC or real nuclear scientists? On the other hand, Khamenei, the Basiji, and the IRGC have everything to gain by assassinating Mohammadi…they take out an opponent, instill fear in reformist professors, get to blame the growing opposition, and resuscitate “Marg bar Amreeka”–which, I will admit, is apparently alive and well…here in America.
@CH: “Marg bar Amreeka”–which, I will admit, is apparently alive and well…here in America
If by “Amkreeka” one means the country itself or its people, then no. But that is not what this slogan meant originally either. Originally, the slogan referred to the Imperial ideology, the political system, the complex of methods used to subvert and subjugate other countries. And yes, in THIS sense, “Marg bar Amreeka” is alive in well in the USA, thanks God! Americans are getting sick and tired of what is done in their name and they are fedup with the parasitical plutocracy which has taken over the USA. Good for them!
Human nature dictates that we don’t want to live in a society that is ruled from a holy book written hundreds of years ago and where an all-powerful dictatorship watches you while you sleep.
Bingo! Yet another interestig admission: your anti-Islamic, secularist, ideology. I sure see that not being Muslim (no real Muslim would utter than kind of words) you would have a beef with the *Islamic* Republic. But this also shows that the so-called “freedom agenda” is, in fact, an anti-Islamic agenda. Now, it is darn clear why a majority if Iranians want nothing to do with your brand of “freedom”, which is only the freedom by and for secularists, not a freedom to live in an Islamic Republic according to the Shia faith.
Good thing for everybody that you live in the USA and not in Iran. I say – enjoy your life here and let those who want to live in an Islamic Republic live as they wish. Leave them alone and stop pretending like they want to be like you – they don’t. Iran already had the dubious “opportunity” to live under the Western puppet Pahlavi (yet another pseudo-Muslim pro-Amkreeka billionaire secularist) and the gave him the boot. They did not want your model then, and they don’t want it today. If you are for “people power” accept that the said people do not agree with you and let them live as they want.
“Bingo! Yet another interestig admission: your anti-Islamic, secularist, ideology. I sure see that not being Muslim (no real Muslim would utter than kind of words) you would have a beef with the *Islamic* Republic. But this also shows that the so-called “freedom agenda” is, in fact, an anti-Islamic agenda.”
I could consider myself a secularist, yes…but anti-Islamic? No. There are plenty of Muslims in the world who do not want to be ruled by 7th century dogma, Iran is no exception. Unfortunately, they are usually blown up for it by the minority who believe in the above. Saying that Khamenei represents Islam is like saying that the Taliban and Al-Qaeda also do. Its like claiming that the “Islamic State of Iraq” is really doing God’s work when they strike “The Den of Infidelity” (daycare centers, markets, etc).
“Iran already had the dubious “opportunity” to live under the Western puppet Pahlavi (yet another pseudo-Muslim pro-Amkreeka billionaire secularist) and the gave him the boot.”
Weren’t you just screaming at Hondurans for throwing out Zelaya a few comments above? LOL. This isn’t about Iranians for you…its about you wanting to see demise of the United States, at least in its current form. You see Iranians as a means to an end…for example, Khamenei and Ahmadinejad have given support to Palestine, so you will support them no matter what they do. Most Iranians weren’t even alive during the time of the Shah…what they have been alive for though, is a sadistic government that stones homosexuals, executes for conversion to Islam, and has taken Persia–once the most advanced countries in the world–into the dark ages while the rest of the world modernizes.
“Good thing for everybody that you live in the USA and not in Iran. I say – enjoy your life here and let those who want to live in an Islamic Republic live as they wish. Leave them alone”
Please…I don’t think you would stand behind a word of this. If protests broke out across Saudi Arabia tomorrow demanding an end to Wahabbi rule, freedom for Shiites, and gender equality, you would be cheering for those seeking freedom, just as I would. And why would you do so? Because the collapse of the House of Saud would mean the US could lose any “ally”! Same thing with Egypt and Jordan. I firmly believe that many of these countries fear democracy in Iran because it could weaken their rule, don’t you?
“Americans are getting sick and tired of what is done in their name and they are fedup with the parasitical plutocracy which has taken over the USA. Good for them!”
And, as you can clearly tell, IRANIANS are getting sick and tired of what is being done in their name and they are fedup with their government’s refusal to stop isolating itself from the West and rule them under a perverted form of a religion that many of them adhere too.
They are tired of the madness that has consumed their country.
“They did not want your model then, and they don’t want it today.”
I’ve marched with over a thousand Iranian Americans here in my home city. When I join them in saying “Marg bar dictator!” I mean it…whether its Khamenei or the Shah.
C.H.,
Permit me to ask you some questions;
1) The opposition claims massive fraud in the June 12 vote. Since then, the government has posted the results of each ballot box online. Has any of the 10’s of thousands of volunteer election workers disputed the results that they have seen? Did any claim that the ballot boxes were stolen? Or stuffed? That men with guns took them away?
2) Have any of Mussavi’s 40,000 observers disputed those results or claim that they were not allowed to be present for the count?
3) in the 2-3 days following the election, I heard numerous rumors of IRGC/Basiji stealing ballot boxes. Then the rumors died. Why hasn’t anyone verified them since?
4) In Mussavi’s formal complaint to the Gaurdian council, he made no allegations at all about any of the above events taking place. He offered no credible explanation about how the vote was rigged. Why not?
5) Can you construct a plausible scenario on how the government could rig an election in which 45 million people voted without thousands of witnesses seeing it?
An answer of “everybody is scared to speak out” is insufficient as there seem to be no shortage of people brave enough to confront security forces. It also would not explain why Mussavi does not claim he has many such witnesses but they are afraid to step forward.
Thank You
P.S. I have no doubt you can recite a litany of IRI government abuses. Feel free to do so here if you want, but please do address any, or even one of the questions above.
Thank You Again
@CH: Saying that Khamenei represents Islam is like saying that the Taliban and Al-Qaeda also do
I never said that, if only because Islam lack a unified corpus of dogmatic theology which could be referred to in trying to establish who, if anybody, “represents” Islam. What I do believe is that most Iranians are quite happy with the type of Republic and Shia religion which Khamenei represents. For me, this has nothing to do with dogma, only with the right of people to live as they want. And you are quite mistaken if you think that I would want to forcibly remove the Wahabi crazies who are running the KSA. If that is really what the Saudis like – let them have it.
Weren’t you just screaming at Hondurans for throwing out Zelaya a few comments above?
Dude, let me tell you that the “Hondurans” did not “throw out” Zelaya – were did you get your facts – from the Heritage Foundation?! Zelaya was overthrown by the Honduran Guccis and with the direct patronage and supervision of the USA. If the Hondurans had voted Zelaya out of office I would have no bones with that. Look at Chile – today the Chileans voted for a multi-billionaire “Gucci-type” President. I say – let them have it. I have no problems with that either.
But you are just like the US State Department – when a peopel does not vote like you like, you simply declare the elections rigged and that’s it.
Too bad for you that a) most Iranians don’t agree with you and b) that Iran is not Honduras and that the Empire – and you – will have to live in frustrated rage that you cannot simply use force to remove those whose values you abhor.
Tough luck!
Lysander,
You pose some interesting questions…some of which I have heard before, others I have not, until now. Keep in mind that neither of us live in Iran, so I only go by what I’ve heard from people who actually do and conclusions I’ve drawn from talking to them.
“Has any of the 10’s of thousands of volunteer election workers disputed the results that they have seen? Did any claim that the ballot boxes were stolen? Or stuffed? That men with guns took them away?”
I do not know much about the “volunteer” election workers in Iran…its very difficult to tell exactly who these people are when the only people permitted to cover the developments freely are Press TV, Tehran Times, and other state-administered media. News outlets, including Arabic media, have been severely restricted in Iran and, as far as I can tell, many journalists are still prevented from covering anything pertaining to the election or the protests.
“Have any of Mussavi’s 40,000 observers disputed those results or claim that they were not allowed to be present for the count?”
I do not know…I also don’t know of a single incident where they have verified it.
“in the 2-3 days following the election, I heard numerous rumors of IRGC/Basiji stealing ballot boxes. Then the rumors died. Why hasn’t anyone verified them since?”
Quite a lot happened in the 2-3 days following the elections…there were all kinds of reports and rumors flying around. The IRI did an efficient job at shutting down the flow of information and continues to do so. Its impossible for a media figure who is not sympathetic to the regime to do an investigative report about this. Most importanly, I’ve never really believed that ballot stuffing was used in the election…I think the result was already planned–Khamenei and the IRGC never had any intention of allowing Ahmadinejad to be voted out of office. The fact that the election results were announced practically as the ballots closed (in an election without electronic votes) affirms this accusation, in my opinion.
“Can you construct a plausible scenario on how the government could rig an election in which 45 million people voted without thousands of witnesses seeing it?”
Yes…the votes were irrelevant in the “result”.
“And you are quite mistaken if you think that I would want to forcibly remove the Wahabi crazies who are running the KSA. If that is really what the Saudis like – let them have it.”
So why can’t Iranians have their freedom? I don’t want the US or any other country to forcefully remove Khamenei. As a Homo Sapiens, I have declared my full support to Iranians who have had enough and have done everything I can to help them my home city. Keep in mind that the Shah was overthrown because of a revolt, which you support, no?
“Zelaya was overthrown by the Honduran Guccis and with the direct patronage and supervision of the USA.”
If you have credible evidence the US was involved, please share it with me. What I know, is that Obama condemned Zelaya’s overthrow the morning it happened…he launched a Press conference with the Colombian President as I remember. At the same time, Obama has said very little and kept his distance from the Iranian governments treatment of protesters.
“Too bad for you that a) most Iranians don’t agree with you”
How do you know?
“But you are just like the US State Department – when a peopel does not vote like you like, you simply declare the elections rigged and that’s it.”
Other than Iran, where have I said that? That’s quite an accusation to make.
“you – will have to live in frustrated rage that you cannot simply use force to remove those whose values you abhor.”
I’m in frustrated rage when I see people dying for basic values that people like you and I sometimes take for granted. If someone’s values calls for unarmed protesters to be shot dead and if their values encourage rape as an instrument of torture, then damn straigh I am angry and I abhor those values…and you can bet I will stand up against it.
@CH: What I know, is that Obama condemned Zelaya’s overthrow the morning it happened…he launched a Press conference with the Colombian President as I remember
I am giving up.
CH,
A government denying involvement is not really proof, or even evidence, of non invovlvement. You are smart enough to know that.
Obama condemning a coup while his own army arms and trains the Honduran army really doesn’t. Mean much.
” I do not know…I also don’t know of a single incident where they have verified it. “
Silence implies consent.
“its very difficult to tell exactly who these people are when the only people permitted to cover the developments freely are Press TV, Tehran Times, and other state-administered media. News outlets, including Arabic media, have been severely restricted in Iran and, as far as I can tell, many journalists are still prevented from covering anything pertaining to the election or the protests. “
True enough after the elections. Not before. Before there was a very large international media presence. If there was a fraud plan in place in advance, there was every chance to catch it.
Vineyardsaker, Lysander,
Again, please, if you know of any credible evidence that Obama was involved in Zelaya’s ouster, please do share it with me as I am very interested in hearing it.
“Again, please, if you know of any credible evidence that Obama was involved in Zelaya’s ouster, please do share it with me as I am very interested in hearing it.”
Well, we know that 1) US state department officials met with the coup plotters prior to the coup. 2) The coup plotters all trained at the Department of Defense run “School of the Americas. 3) The US trains and finances the Honduran military from the ground up.
We also know that while Obama quasi condemned the coup, the rest of the administration moved to rationalize it. The New York Times nearly praised it. Any hint of criticism had to be balanced by criticism of the previous government.
Now All that doesn’t constitute incontrovertible proof, I grant you, but it sure does look bad. If the Iranian opposition had anywhere near that much proof the elections were stolen, I might actually believe them.
But they don’t.