by an anonymous resident of Hong Kong
Dear children of Hong Kong:
Most if not all of you are very concerned about the puzzling scenes and conflicting interpretations/comments (some with fake photos) flying around, each perhaps serving some untold purposes. Concerned but not necessarily adequately informed (not as those who have followed the socio-political development in Hong Kong as a cool pursuit of truth rather than passion – to look for sometimes unpalatable truth rather than what you might prefer to believe, and have done so for a considerable length of time), this must have been a difficult time– though to some, they may actually have a privately congratulatory feeling of “being part of history or history making” as they do what they usually cannot on the streets.
It is difficult because you’ve seen friends estranged because of difference of belief. But it could also be excited (as revolution– what some cold minded scholar had labeled the “opium of intellectuals”)– is said to be going. However, deep down you may feel unsure and worry about something may happen to destroy Hong Kong. This is particularly hard for those who are deeply entrenched in their beliefs (because you cannot turn back now), but somehow not really sure if what you have long upheld is true — particularly as things don’t turn out as simple, easy, clear-cut and tangible as originally thought (or led to believe by the so-called “leaders” of civil disobedience).
Here I am not trying to explain the historical metamorphosis of events (for the past 17 to 30 years actually, and accumulated feelings on both sides—actually there is at least one third party few young people would think of—foreign governments). I am only offering a summary analysis plus some recommendations for you to consider.
First, the real bone of contention: “Lack of Mutual Trust”.
The central argument now is all about whether anyone can stand for election to become CE of HK—what pan democrats called “true universal suffrage”. Beijing obviously is worried about this and insists that : First, it must be nominated by the “Nomination Committee” (as spelled out in the Basic Law accepted by both Britain and China); second, only a candidate who claims allegiance to Hong Kong (jargon: “love” Hong Kong), and by extension, allegiance to China of which Hong Kong is a part.
Pan Democrats alleged that this is not true universal suffrage as there is some conditions for who can run. This view is accepted by most youths and some of their parents and teachers (who, because of the British ban of contemporary Chinese history in curriculum during their own school days, are largely uninformed about the development of the country save for its negative – though quite true—aspects). This camp then alleged that the Central Government does not trust Hong Kong people and therefore they are angry. They want CY Leung to step down as they alleged that he had not helped Beijing understand the “true” views of most Hong Kong people.
Let us first remember: trust must come from both sides to be mutual. Pan democrats, on one hand, has never said they trust Beijing. Now, let’s see whether the things they’d done since (actually before) the hand-over till now have laid a solid or even shaky but workable foundation of trust for Beijing? Hell, no! Look at some of the following:
Ever since 1997, from insulting the flag, to challenging the authority of the nation’s congress over the local court, to physically thrusting at then Vice Premier Li (now premier) when he was invited to deliver a lecture on China’s economy at Hong Kong University… and endless blockading and thrusting by force at the Liaison Office of the Central Government at Hong Kong, as well as the fanning up of anti-Mainlanders activities in recent years—apparently all aimed at alienating Hong Kong from Mainland which was united only after 150 years.
Some of them have openly (on TV etc) asserted that they aim at changing China (so much for the principle of “River and Well water stay away from each other 河水不犯井水);
Endless filibuster acts in the Legislative Council (Legco) to block almost all important actions of the government with the purpose of discrediting it — so as to uphold the myth that only elected government can rule. What about the 150 years rule by governors directly sent from London? No argument about democracy but the message is fabricated and therefore not true.
Now, more in focus is the question for candidacy for the CE post. Before judging the validity of the pan democrats’ claim or understanding Beijing’s worries, let us be reminded of the following facts:
The Britain cunningly devised (and Beijing perhaps unknowingly accepted then) a system in which any foreigner who have resided in HK consecutively and legally for 7 years can become “Permanent Residents”. Note: purposefully blurring the distinction between a citizen and just a person allowed to reside and work (who are not considered citizens in any country), the so-called “permanent residents” in Hong Kong can vote and enjoy all privileges of citizens here without any obligation or commitment! Actually, they enjoy more privilege than the “real” Hong Kong people because: a. They need not forsake their original nationality or allegiance/loyalty to it; b. They can vote in both their own country and here; c. if Hong Kong collapses (and causes harm to China), they either could not care less or even secretly congratulate themselves if their countries are at odds with China – and many of their original countries are. A “genuine” citizen’s vote carries only the same weight as these “permanent residents” in Hong Kong who have no commitment to this place!
The Basic Law specifies that only people of Chinese origin or Chinese born in Hong Kong can assume leading positions in the government. Can the highest government post of Chief Executive be an exemption?
The pan democrats has a verifiable record of trying to push for permanent residency status for foreigners. E.g., the South Asians (members of the British Commonwealth) and even Filipino domestic helpers. No offense to Filipinos but — need I remind you of the two nation’s hot argument on south sea isles? They are by definition a foreign interest.
Lai Chi Ying, owner of the notorious (chased out of Taiwan as he tried to meddle in the island’s politics) Apple Daily News, was found to have given HKD 40,000,000 to anti government politicians last year (actually, a lot more money in previous years), including Anson Chan who wanted to be CE and the retired archbishop of Hong Kong (who criticized anything related to Mainland China). The case is now under investigation of the ICAC (Independent Commission Against Corruption). Can Beijing trust these people?
Can Hillary Clinton refuse to pledge loyalty to America if she runs for president? Can anyone in any country do that if he/she runs for a chief public office in their own land? Then how can Beijing accept this to happen in Hong Kong — where it is no secret that Britain and the US want to have influence, in fact, control?
What would happen if we really have a CE who does not put the interest of Hong Kong (and China) above those of other nations?
Beijing, through the local government, ask Hong Kong to “accept for now 袋住先” the rather stringent requirement (most important, that the nominee must be supported by half or more of the Nominating Committee) the People’s Congress (the highest legislative body in China) has announced – hinting that the conditions could be relaxed later. This is a promise it can hardly go back. But this not accepted by those going to the streets.
Regarding voting right — what universal suffrage usually means—there is no argument. Beijing already committed itself to that EVERY eligible voter in Hong Kong (including foreigners who may be against China) can have a vote for the CE —if the present package is accepted by the Legco. This is a required step since the British days. If Legco does not accept it, there will be NO universal suffrage and the old system (through which the previous 3 CEs were elected) would remain.
Next I would like to Beijing’s suspicion and whether it has grounds for it.
Beijing alleged all along that opposition movements (plenty since and before 1997) have been instigated, supported, designed by foreign powers (particularly the US) who provide technical expertise not only on electioneering (seen in previous elections where Democrats often won, though not any more) but also street fight techniques.
Selina Yip Lau (previous Secretary for Security of Hong Kong, now elected Legco member after studying at Stanford) has just published her findings on techniques including the “firechat” software used in Taiwan students’ previous occupation of its legislative college (which does not need the internet to function, is an excellent field communication and command software which works both on the internet and mobile phones). She pointed out that the “amateur” students were able to break through police blockade in a mere 5 minutes, and their stationing of defense and guard posts cannot be done by non military people. See Yahoo.com.hk or Yahoo it. (Not sure if not blocked in Google)
America’s blockade of China is known by anyone in the study of Geopolitics (not available to HK university students yet). Also, separation of any part of China has always been part of American strategy vs a rising China. Hong Kong has always been a key financial, political, and social-cultural hub for China sitting at the mouth of the Pearl River where it meets the South China Sea.
Beijing is aware of the series of “color revolutions” ranging from the Arab Spring to Yugoslavia, Thailand and Ukraine etc. In both Thailand and Ukraine, the democratically elected presidents were thrown out of office by street protest. All these countries touched upon by America are now in miserable conditions. Will Hong Kong be next?
Whether or not we think Beijing’s suspicion has grounds, when it suspects, it naturally takes a more defensive, conservative attitude towards the election of Hong Kong’s CE.
Conclusion drawn from the above discussion:
Unrestricted universal suffrage including the free choice of candidates is attainable only if a genuine mutual trust between Beijing and all people in Hong Kong is built up. Now what will democrats do to help build this? At any rate, given the loophole in our election system, there is no way a candidate should run without professing allegiance for Hong Kong, and by extension, China.
Personally, I would like to see that the voting system be more open – if Beijing can become less worried and more confident. First, I would like to see the number on the committee to expand by two or even three folds; Second, I would like to see a wider representation of various “sectors” by the committee; Third, I hope to see a less stringent requirement for any candidate to acquire before he/she can actually stand for election — less stringent than the current specified 50% of the Committee. But I will insist that anyone who wishes to be leader of a part of China must pledge allegiance to both Hong Kong and the country — and I reserve the right of the people to replace any government for valid reasons.
For that to happen, the pan democrats must reconsider their strategy: Instead of deliberately putting down both the local and Central Government (often very unfairly) to argue (actually establish the myth) that only a democratically government can govern Hong Kong, they should think about how to build up mutual trust. With that, I will not object if any one of them runs and become our next CE. I just do not see how one without the trust of the central government can help Hong Kong.
Now, a few comments about the current situation for the Children of Hong Kong:
It is a tragedy to alienate your friends , particularly long time associates, just because of difference of opinions in this single matter. You should share what you know, and respect his or her choice even if they do not agree. Though this in some way may affect your evaluation of his/her abilities. We need to stand together now, not fight because things are actually much more complicated than what an average person can comprehend;
Both sides (HK govt & Demonstrators) have learned quickly from the early clashes. The government withdrew the riot control units and is adopting a very soft-handed way of dealing with the demonstrators, using TV explanations as well as pleas to the so-called “leaders” of the Occupy Central movement to deliver their previous claims or promise: that the movement will be non-violent, demonstrators will not resist arrest and that if matters get out of and, they will dissolve the crowd. (Truth is: control of the crowd is no longer in the hands of these scholars living the ivory tower—but in the hands of the radical, young students. The “old folks” are making hardline announcements just to “stay with” the crowd, pretending that they are still leading the movement. Actually, the real leaders are the young student leaders trained and supported by a foreign power)
Demonstrators try to show their civil side now (after the initial violent thrashing at police lines which brought tear gas and criticism from some HK people). They now allow passage of some ambulance and fire service vehicles. Actually, most who participated believed in what Tai (the law teacher of HKU) claimed : to perform a civil, i.e., non violent, disobedience. But mass movements are often dominated by passion, particularly among the young. It remains to be seen how long and how dominating civil acts of students could continue as probably some who had seen the unexpected, ugly and violent scenes may have already left;
The Government is obviously playing a “Wait and Wear” game — waiting to see if a critical mass of the demonstrators can see that they are going nowhere or get fed up with stepped up violence the foreign trained student leaders are advocating, and to see if their TV persuasion, explanation and pleas work; wearing means let the sun, rain and mere physical fatigue to wear out the energy and determination of those on the streets;
The radical student leaders’demands are impossible and unreasonable — may be after all, they do not really want a peaceful solution of the matter. They demand Leung to meet them at a time they specify, with preconditions Leung is powerless to implement etc., and to step down as the “deadline” they set is now over. Leung cannot possible accept terms he as a local official cannot take up to override those of the Central Government. Stepping down in this time of chaos would lead to what? Beijing will not bend — as usual it does not, particularly if it suspects foreign governments are behind. Also, bending means not only a loss of face (or legitimacy), authority towards other local governments (most anti-corruption work is directed at local officials). Also, submission could mean endless more demands. Finally, Beijing suspects this is a crucial step of HK going “independent” – as many in the legal profession and foreigners try to interpret “high degree of autonomy” to mean. If it bends, there will be a widespread riots inside China protesting this and the nation will lose face.
Whether they (or the brains behind them) may change their mind remains to be seen. If peacefully solved, however, this group will continue to aggressively cause problems because that would keep them in the lime light. Without that, their value (to themselves as well as their patrons) will be finished.
Friday October 3 will be an important time: People will return to work after two days of public holidays. What would the street “heroes”do? The Government had just explained detailed with a map on the TV how their present “occupied areas” affect traffic. You can assume that they are persuading demonstrators to occupy elsewhere so as to cause less inconvenience to the public. However, it MAY be hinting to them how they can cause even more severe traffic. Somehow I feel that government seems to want it to continue for some time — no proof, just a gut feeling.
Since the movement, the Hang Seng Index lost several hundred points, meaning 50 billion HKD is already lost. The Mainland has canceled many tours to HK — the National Day “Golden Week” for tourism is lost, affecting approximately 250,000 people working in tourism and related business. Short term impact: there may be a temporary fall on property prices, particularly the high ended units. As China now eases its property purchase policies, why not buy big, comfortable houses up north with better air and less pollution – including noise (political) pollution?
Worst Case Scenario: History shows that many, in fact, most mass movement with clear-cut, noble goals were often hijacked by opportunists who seek their own goals. While the “Old” leaders such as Tai (HKU) has already lost real leadership of the movement, it remains to be seen if the 17-year old Wong Chi-feng can control the whole scene. “Spontaneous” outburst of occupation actions in various areas may reflect that actually, no single group is actually controlling the “wild cat” type movement. If that happens, be prepared for a long term disturbance. Then the Central Government will need to consider whether to use force and risk being criticized as in 1989 Tiananmen Square incident; or allow HK to “sink” as Thailand or Ukraine. It may also consider “clipping the wings” of the local economy. If the Mainland government is persuaded to adopt a policy providing less favoritism or privilege to HK (which it has been doing all these years), our young people may need to spend more time making a living than roaming the streets telling their Central Government as well as the older people who have built up HK in their younger years what to do. Children of Hong Kong, what choices are you leaving for Beijing?
Grieved, we will just have to disagree. I believe that Xi is going to offer the Dalai a chance to return in exchange for a definitive statement rejecting Tibetan ‘independence’. If that offer arises, despite the current fury of Western attacks on China (Uighur jihadist terror, MH370, Hong Kong compradore agitation, ‘pivots’ to China’s sea borders, egging on the fascist and Holocaust denier Abe etc)I would expect the Dalai, acting on the instructions of his Western controllers, to reject it.
I hope that I am wrong, because Tibet and China are welded together by centuries of shared history. That the West has assiduously sought to foster hatred and animosity between them (as in Yugoslavia, the Middle East etc)is another of their great crimes. The only hope for the world is the end of the principal global aggressor, and that is not China, is it.
Anonymous 18.12, thanks for the sources of information on the CIA control of Tibetan ‘resistance’. I am afraid that the brain-washing of Western publics re. Tibet has been wildly successful. But is that not true about almost everything? For the USA, in my opinion the greatest force for evil in all human history, to still pose as the world’s moral guiding light is almost beyond belief, but there it is, every day, rammed down our throats.
The Tibetans are just ‘collateral damage’ to US machinations to ‘bring China down’, as former US Ambassador to Beijing, Huntsman, insouciantly observed (during a Republican Presidential candidate debate in 2012) was US policy. The Chinese did not help their cause during the 1960s chaos, but since then the situation has markedly improved. An ‘independent’ Tibet would soon be infested by US business and military interests, and we all now how much that improves the lot of local populations.
NotSoFast, the fact that minorities have 8% of the population but 50% of the territory shows that the Han inhabit the most fertile, productive, parts, and the minorities the mountains, high plateaux and deserts, nothing else. One could as easily argue from this logic that the Han deserve to take over the bulk of this territory, as their numbers would indicate. And if you are going to accuse the Han of ‘genocide’ a few historical instances would help in determining the veracity of your claim. Allowing the minorities to ignore the one-child policy, increasing life expectancy and literacy and slashing child mortality rates hardly seem ‘genocidal’ policies to me.
Rootman, if the Dalai’s visit to the Zionist neo-conservative AEI is not proof of his real character, I don’t know what would be. The type of society the AEI envisages would devastate Tibet more thoroughly than China ever could, with neo-liberal savage capitalism policed by the ‘Washington Consensus’, open slather for Western capital, subservience to Washington and Tel Aviv (no doubt a tribe of ‘Tibetan Jews’ will be discovered, and flown to Israel amid much publicity)and the mandatory dozen or so US bases and ‘missile defence’ installations. The Dalai has been a consistent propaganda asset for the USA and its Zionist controllers, over decades. As I have said, I believe the proof of his real nature is his refusal to end the vicious self-immolation campaign. One edict from the supposed ‘beloved’ leader of the Tibetans would end this vicious obscenity. It is a policy, clearly hatched in the West, to demonise China, using Tibetan dupes as cannon-fodder. It will not make any impression on the Chinese but remind them of the fanaticism of their enemies, but plays well in the West, in the minds of those who neglect to consider things calmly and rationally, and who have been brainwashed by decades of anti-Chinese agit-prop. And not a few of those are simply racists, Western supremacists scared shit-less by China’s rise and the eclipse of a clearly crumbling West.
@MulgaMumblebrain
Thanks for your posts as well. As you said, Western MSM has been wildly successful, even with people on this board! Even though I showed them links that are clear and well researched with tons of bibliographs, they choose to ignore it. Nothing much we can do. It’s like in the middle ages where people simply do not want to know that the Earth revolves around the Sun, not the other way round!
@ Anonymous 18.12
re: CIA involvement in Tibet.
Of course the CIA was involved in Tibet, just as they are involved in Hong Kong. You do not expect them to forego that opportunity do you: a brutally colonized country, with the population loyal to their leaders, with the nomads of the higher altitudes known for their fierce independence and their courage – they would have been fools not to try and create difficulties for China there. But they never gave the Tibetans advanced weapons and the revolt died out (litterally – but this is not surprising with CIA support isn’t it). But this revolt does certainly not imply that Tibetans are shills for the AZ Empire: it simply means that Tibetans want to be free and will accept any offered help – wouldn’t you do exactly the same thing in their shoes?
As to the Tibetan buddhism – as far as I know their culture is the only one in history that has declared meditation + inner exploration as its first priority and this is certainly a culture worth protecting.
And I have the clear impression that our Tibet-bashers have not the slightest idea about Tibetan and Chinese mindsets and are basing their opinions not on personal experience but simply on propaganda – just as if Chinese propaganda were an evangelium.Get to know people before you believe them !
Isn’t it amazing how when there are mountains of evidence that the compradore leaders of the Hong Kong subversives are directed, financed, trained and treated as welcome, if inferior, guests in the seat of Evil in Mordor on the Potomac (even starring in hour long videos discussing the ways and means of launching the subversion) that the heroes of the Western Free Press can see none of it. That the BBC sewer still produces plum-voiced English correspondents whose contempt for and condescension to the Chinese is undisguised as they spew their propaganda lies. That the voluminous evidence, naked and unashamed (impudently arrogant in fact) is simply dismissed as a ‘conspiracy theory’ thus ending any prospect of debate, honest or otherwise. Decades of culling everybody but ideologically reliable, morally duplicitous and slippery opportunists, and Rightwing ideological zealots (psychopaths in psychological parlance)has rendered the glorious West brain-dead, like one of those zombies that infest the popular culture. And when, inadvertently, or through some excess of hubris, an Imperial gauleiter like Biden speaks the truth, ie that Turkey and the Gulf despotisms created IS (half the truth-he forget to mention those other midwives and artificial inseminators, the USA, Israel and the West)he immediately back-tracks, apologises for speaking truthfully, and the MSM notices nothing. Yet these human ciphers still proclaim themselves glorious seekers of Truth, incorruptible and brave. Is it any wonder that no-one with half a brain treats these presstitutes with other than contempt these days?
Anonymous 22.11, no amount of evidence will convince closed minds. If I ever saw real evidence that Chinese rule in Tibet was a curse from which the Tibetans wished to be free, I would change my opinion. But I never have. I’ve seen scads of black propaganda that I quickly discovered to be the usual vomitus spewed up by Western agit-prop liars. I am guided by the desire to see people everywhere live free of exploitation, cruelty, foreign interference and economic misery. I very strongly believe that a Dalai regime in Tibet, controlled, as it would be, by the USA, will deliver the same Imperial rule we see everywhere. Poverty, inequality and economic exploitation overseen by the IMF, World Bank, WTO etc, rule by a tiny, corrupt, compradore elite trained in the West, and a base for US subversion and aggression directed at China. The Tibetan exiles, by allying themselves to the greatest force for evil in history, endlessly belligerent and not so secretly contemptuous of non-Westerners (including Tibetans)will get no sympathy from me. After all, who has the right to be involved in Tibetan affairs-China, its contiguous neighbour, with whom the Tibetans have had close, not always amicable, relations for millennia, or the global fascist bully-boy, which exists thousands of kilometres away? But if the Tibetans honestly sought a compromise with China (who are, in my opinion, compared to the USA, the vastly lesser evil)I would change my opinion of them, and wish them every success.
It would be hard to understand the hypnosis that the Tibet/Shangri-La/Shambala/Agartha mythology exercised upon the brainwashed Western minds, without a knowledge of Masonic, Theosophist, Fascist and…yes, crypto-Zionist fictions of the “hidden Masters” ensconced in the wilderness of Central Asia, Pamyr, Tibet, where they control the World from!
And the so much vaunted polyandry of the Tibetans (the delight of feminists who saw in this the “empowerment” of the female!) was in fact the sexual exploitation of a female by a gang of men, the real subjection of women.
@Mulga Mumblebrain: Thanks for pointing out the lies and inconsistences of The Tibet Myth.
The mere facts that the Dalai Lama was publically for the US War on Yugoslavia and Iraq should tell any thinking person (once they know the truth about these two wars) that he is a charlatan and Yankee lapdog.
I wrote the following to a blog about the Dalia Lama after Michael Parenti’s article on The Tibet Myth came out:
I take exception to this lame argument:
“Finally, it should be noted that the criticism posed herein is not intended as a personal attack on the Dalai Lama. Whatever his past associations with the CIA and various reactionaries, he speaks often of peace, love, and nonviolence. And he himself really cannot be blamed for the abuses of theancien régime, having been but 15 years old when he fled into exile. . .”
If we are to take Tibetan Buddhism to its logical end or beginning as the case may be, the current Dalai Lama is a reincarnation of many Dalai Lamas, no?
So, even if he is not responsible for his current incarnation, what about ALL the other incarnations when supposedly he was the other Dalai Lamas?!?
Shouldn’t we hold him accountable for his actions or lack thereof in ALL his previous incarnations???
Either the current Dalai Lama is the current incarnation of ALL the previous Dalai Lama, according to Tibetan Buddhist teachings, OR Tibetan Buddhist teachings are full of SHIT
Sub national self determination is wonderful in Lugansk or South Ossetia (after ethnically cleansing potential no voters). In Tibet and Hong Kong its an evil conspiracy. Doubleplusungoodthink.
Levelling a city is restoring Russian property in Grozny. A far more careful (in terms of civilian lives) campaign in Lugansk is “GENOCIDE”. Which greatly diminishes the word.
Mulga Mumblebrain @23.37
I’d like to echo Anonymous on commending you for straightening out misconceptions spewed here by a few commenters regarding Tibet, and China’s handling of Tibet since the liberation. I don’t know if you are western in heritage. If so, all the more surprising for I have come across very few indeed among westerners who know the background around the Tibet issue as well as you do.
As for Wend, who claims to be Serbian, I am quite disappointed. Here are two versions of discourses on the Tibet issue, one from a friendly nation who suffered on your behalf in having their embassy bombed for being on your side of a conflict; the other from the bombers who incrementally escalated the bomb targets all the way to infrastructures and civilian institutions such as schools and hospitals. And you choose to buy the bomber’s version. What is wrong with you Yugoslavs?
As is generally held, I am beginning to believe that most eastern Europeans simply want to be joined with the west.
‘National self-determination’ in Tibet and Hong Kong, organised, financed and propagandised by an eternally belligerent foreign bully and murderous thug, is entirely fraudulent. We live in a world of Big Lies, but this is one of the biggest.
Mulga Mumblebrain thanks for writing what I wanted to write.
If it were not for western interference and subversion Tibet would never have been invaded. Same with many other states which were considered vassal states. The same goes for India. When China went aggressive so did India, annexing Sikkim. But it was the Crimea style of annexation with no violence. But the US wont talk about that because then the US cant expect to get any kind of support at all to counter China. The parts of India that China invaded were previous Chinese area which Indian states had conquered. But even then the Chinese should not have done it since India until then was not an enemy of China. Compared to the large border area and thousands of years of history, neither side waged large scale wars against each other considering both were powerful states. And there has to be a limit where we do have to say there are people already living there. Otherwise civilization would cease to exist. What ever China was, if they really wanted to conquer the world no one would have been able to stop them. I had posted a map of languages which showed where the European invasions were stopped throughout history, Only southern parts of India and China were not conquered. The main difference between Europeans and easterners is that the Europeans have no qualms about exterminating those they consider their enemies no matter how peaceful or advanced the other side is. I thought there would be no hope but Ashoka (look up Emperor Ashoka the guy who sent messages of peace to the known lands) has shown us that maybe Europeans can also change. They are few and far between. Maybe thats why we need to try to make them see that they can find peace as well. And maybe they are waking up as well. Spiritually.. B
Glad you posted this article. Everyone seems to be completely overlooking the BRIC agreement and its importance in the world and who it liberates.
There is a lot of false equating of political movements to the building and establishment and sustainment of an undeveloped 3rd world country like China and the attempt to resist ongoing US attempts at sabotage all couched in “democracy movements”
A lot of ideological confusion out there but actual anticommunism couched in phony concerns for democracy and “worker rights” not seen for countries like Colombia, Honduras, Guatemala where death squad activity continues.
Excellent post although I wish it were stronger about how Mainland Chinese feel and why. Actually, an interesting article on NPR website on this topic as well. They view these young people as “spoiled”.
I view them as “Westernized” and in the Western camp. They don’t seem to carry that this is an imperialist camp. This article makes an excellent point–they seem to have had no problem when China was a “colony” of Britain.
But it’s more than just about which set of finance capitalists rule. It’s about Western penetration of China and the ability to sow more Color Revolutions through political office.
The US has to keep on talking about lack of “democracy” in other countries to keep Americans brainwashed and assured that we have the best totalitarian “democracy” in the West. What better way to advertise our American Exceptionalism that we are still so great and other countries are still so horrible than to continue to manufacture “democracy” movements.
I have known many Tibetan Buddhists. I take issue with the notion that Tibetan Buddhism is some sort of Hollywood myth. What a shockingly ignorant position. Tibetan Buddhism is something magnificent – a very high level of spirituality. Anyone who has spent time studying Buddhism – or who has spent time in the company of Tibetan monks – understands this. If the Dalai Lama has made political errors it would be because of a lack of information, not because of complicity with the empire. I once spoke with a Tibetan lama about US policy. They are very aware of the harm our government brings to the world. In no way did I hear any cheerleading for the US government coming from this wise and knowledgeable person.
OleImmigrant, thank-you for your kind words. Don’t be so hard on the Serbs or Yugoslavs because of one individual. There are people in every society who just long to clutch the hem and lick the boot of the Imperial Boss. Australia is full to overflowing with them. I guess it makes them feel tough or important or something. Of course, ironically, the gilded elite couldn’t give a toss whether they lived or died or groveled or not. Do you remember the repellent El Salvadorean fascist (and CIA ‘asset’) Duarte slithering across the White House lawn to kiss the US flag, as Ronny Raygun looked on like a proud owner at a dog show? That kind of person, only even more insignificant.
@Mulga Mumblebrain
“If I ever saw real evidence that Chinese rule in Tibet was a curse from which the Tibetans wished to be free, I would change my opinion.”
If you want personal experience instead of propaganda then go visit any Tibet-support group: you will find no government shills there, just private people who are not paid and who give their time and energy to help a unique culture. And in all these support groups you will find people who have actually travelled to Tibet and/or India and who can tell you what they learned there.
Maybe in the US these groups are different – I would’nt know as I’m a European. But here I’ve met very many people and there was never any form of government interference or propaganda. On the contrary, our group was treated exactly like other humanitarian groups, i.e. we had to show a minimum number of members in the association to get some government help for our general expenses, just like African, South-American and other humanitarian associations.
The Empire of Lies does indeed produce propaganda for Tibet – but (like the CIA involvement) this is simply because it is a juicy opportunity for them to embarrass China. It does not mean that the Empire has any interest in Tibet and it does not mean that Tibetans are AZ collaborators- they simply want to be free and they will accept any help they can get – and if it wasn’t for all those private citizens of many nations going there and seeing for themselves there would be no help except propaganda.
It is my impression that you are honest – but you base your opinion on Tibet (and China) on intellectual considerations (some of which you have backwards) and on written material that you cannot verify yourself. But humans are supreme liars (as Mao said: “A lie fifty times repeated becomes a truth”) and nothing replaces direct human experience in these situations.
@Mulga Mumblebrain: “Tibet when liberated by China …”
Since Mongols built the Eurasian confederation between 1210 to around 1270, Tibet has been part of Chinese Empire as a province or as a satellite kingdom (barring 1900 to 1950 when there were 3 competing factions trying to establish their rule). So in 1950 the Chinese government sent troops to liberate the Tibetan peoples from Dalai Lama’s theocratic oppression (which took root during the lawless period of 1900-1950) and establish State control over the Tibetan region. So, it will reflect historical fact if your phrase is “”Tibetan population when liberated by Chinese government …”
Rest, you have very clearly articulated in your multiple notes in the post.
@NotSoFast: Joining issues with you once again. You haven’t responded to couple of points raised by me in one of the earlier posts:
(1) Why are you whining about territory conquered by Chinese empire? There are so many ‘countries’ apart from China (like USA / Canada / Australia / NZ / Russia / India / Indonesia) which have current boundary due to conquests by their respective kings/queens/emperors during past 500 years! Would you start a campaign to make those conquered territory free ? I’m sure, you will not – because the AngloZionist supporters and disguised supporters will only harp on such regions in Russia and China because these countries are resisting the AngloZionist global Plutocracy !
(2) While you can definitely tell that the Chinese rulers adopt ruthless measures to deal with secessionist groups in Tibet (and Turkestan), just name one sovereign country in the world, who deals with their secessionist movements with cakes & chocolates !
(3) While you can still support Dalai Lama (who supports the invasions done by AngloZionist Plutocracy in Europe and West Asia since 1991, probably with a foolish dream that someday such invasion can happen against China so that Tibet drops on to his lap) and his religious oligarchy (yes, in Tibet entire wealth used to be owned by Dalai and his theocratic gang), Chinese government has every right to deal with them as per law of their State
(4) When the statistics (of Chinese government and Wikipedia) show quite impressive gain in the living standard and education and demography, parroting the AngloZionist propaganda does not make sense, at least in The Sakaer’s blog. I am no fan of communism and I don’t go by rhetoric spread by Chinese government, but I clearly appreciate the fact that Russia and China can lead the Eurasian landmass in freeing from clutches of blood-sucking AngloZionist Plutocracy (read USA and Europe based) & their regional camp-follower Oligarchy (read Dalai etc. etc.)
(5) Tibetan peoples need to understand that AngloZionist Plutocracy is not friend of pro-independence Tibetans, it uses these Tibetans to weaken Chinese government on a geopolitical game. They will prosper living peacefully in China- in health, wealth, education, culture.
Straight-Bat
@The Wend: 06 October, 2014 17:42
“Shame on you who spread the communist propaganda about Tibet! Since 2009. over 150 Tibetans died by self-immolation in protest of Chinese occupation !!! Why would they do that if Chinese system is so good, hey ???”
Shame on you, who doesn’t understand the ‘mind control’ exercised by the religious leaders like Dalai Lama and Wahabi Imams. The fundamentalist followers do whatever their ‘Guru’ says. You haven’t got any idea of how Asian religions work!
“What is happening in Tibet is precisely the communist terror by Chinese government inflicted on the spiritually most advanced society in the world. Tibetans, who have produced possibly the most important spiritual book in the history of the world (The Tibetan Book of the Dead)are brutally terrorized by inferior materialistic communist-marxist Chinese occupators.”
While I don’t have any inclination towards economic philosophies like communism, I must say (a) Tibetan Buddhist philosophy is the most backward sect within Buddhism – you should study ‘Mahayana’ and ‘Hinayana’ etc. to know the details (b) any State power will deal with separatist movements with iron hand (c) China has pulled off world’s most spectacular economic transformation within past 60 years, so I can’t say the rulers are bad.
“All of you who think that China is free from Zionist control, I can say that you are living in an illusion. Even Bakunin, who was an anarchist, described Karl Marx as an absolute Zionist and Rothschild-friend and communism was from the beginning intended to bring the Jewish control of the countries unfortunate enough to be governed by the communists. In Chinese cities they still have pictures of Karl Marx in public places! Would you prefer Marl Marx or Buddha ?”
So you think that, by keeping Karl Marx pictures, China has become Zionist-controlled territory ? Brother, it doesn’t make any difference if you are from Serbia or somewhere else, as long as you are on side of the Lie-Deception-Manipulation ! Stop spreading misinformation, and Start living like a proud human being who seeks truth and justice!
Finally before spreading the AngloZionist slogans like “Free Tibet”, you should raise voice on “Free America”, “Free Australia” etc.
Straight-Bat
re: How honest is China’s propaganda about its minorities?
1. The China national anthem.
I urge you first to check the “translation” in the Wikipedia: it is simply a series of obfuscations. Here is the translation in normal words which you can verify at http://www.jamyangnorbu.com/blog/2008/09/25/toasting-the-olympics-with-toxic-milk/:
Arise! All who refuse to be slaves!
Let our flesh and blood become our new Great Wall!
As the Chinese nation faces its greatest peril,
All forcefully expend their last cries.
Arise! Arise! Arise!
Our million hearts beat as one,
Brave the enemy’s fire, March on!
Brave the enemy’s fire, March on!
March on! March on! On!
Very peaceful, tolerant and truthful isn’t it? And why China had the Wikipedia obfuscate it is also obvious, no?
2. The science of lies in China.
Chinese tradition does not accept the Christian (I’m not speaking of the 1% here) notion of systematic truthfulness. And it has a science of lying which is called “The 36 stratagems” (available at Amazon). It makes for interesting reading – a strategy that I remember well is for example “carry a big knife behind your back and carry a big smile on your face”. Here I mean (again) that the Chinese tradition is quite different from ours.
To sum up this lengthy discussion I am concluding that the pro-Tibet arguments by myself and some other posters (my thanks for their honest efforts) were often underlaid with observed facts and personal experiences, while the anti-Tibet messages were mostly sweeping generalisations (“Tibetans” are AZ stooges”) devoid of any proof or personal experience. To those who honestly believe China’s propaganda I can only recommend searching for people who have enough experience of China (I believe that you need 3-5 years to emotionally understand and partly accept their tradition). And if you want to judge Tibetans too get to know them too – that’s much easier, a few weeks would be enough. My thanks to all the patient readers.
@NotSoFast: You have not responded to my points @14:07 post. Let us debate in a way gentlemen do. My response to your 2 points written at 15:38 is given below. PLEASE RESPOND TO MY POINT (1), (2), (3) @14:07 post.
“1. The China national anthem …”
Every country punch-in so-called ‘patriotism’ and ‘heroics’ in their anthems … some white peoples call God to save their mortal queen, some other brownies call God to save their country, and these yellow chaps are calling themselves to brave the enemy’s fire !!! What’s wrong with it ???
I couldn’t really understand how the ‘Uncle Sam’s Cabin’-boys bring in issues when they can’t find real issues !!!
“2. The science of lies in China …”
Brother, Can you name one country where the ‘State’ power always speaks truth ??? You said ‘Chinese’ tradition is different than yours – you are right, every country has their own style … But will you name ‘your country’ which is always truthful ??? I’m sure, the ‘truth’ you are mentioning is the truth of AngloZionist academicians & media reporters – afterall, they not-so-secretly liked Hitler+Goebels combination (something like KFC burger+crispy chicken) who tried to prove that, Fascist lies if repeated endlessly becomes ‘truth’
“I am concluding that the pro-Tibet arguments by myself and some other posters (my thanks for their honest efforts) were often underlaid with observed facts and personal experiences, while the anti-Tibet messages were mostly sweeping generalisations (“Tibetans” are AZ stooges”) devoid of any proof or personal experience. To those who honestly believe China’s propaganda I can only recommend searching for people who have enough experience of China (I believe that you need 3-5 years to emotionally understand and partly accept their tradition). And if you want to judge Tibetans too get to know them too – that’s much easier, a few weeks would be enough.”
You are making generalisation by saying things like “anti-Tibet message” and that peoples like me and Mulga Mumblebrain commented “Tibetans are AZ stooges”. NONE OF OUR MESSAGES WERE ANTI-TIBETAN – OUR MESSAGES WERE ANTI-DALAI LAMA, ANTI-THEOCRATIC GANG, ANTI-ANGLOZIONIST PLUTOCRACY. NEITHER WE WROTE ANYWHERE TIBETANS ARE AZ STOOGES – WE WROTE DALAI LAMA & THEOCRATIC GANG ARE AZ STOOGES ! I have friends from indo-tibetan ethnic race, and I have some knowledge of Buddhism also. If the Europeans truely want to know what is Buddhism, they must read the subject, and not indulge in Dalai Lama’s politicking !
I call all the peoples to wake up from the world of lie-deception-manipulation. Walk with truth-justice-humanity, for this is what Buddha taught.
Straight-Bat
NotSoFast I have had US soldiers who have told me free speech is very important in the US and that he would die so as to preserve my right to free speech and at the time I did believe it. Being naive and all, 25 years later I believe there is no such thing as free speech in the US other than in some vertical nook and crannies. Maybe free speech is why Faxu news calls itself news instead of faux entertainment. I believe that soldier went to die for his corporate masters to steal from some 3rd world world country. As Butler said it very clearly.
I dont need to meet Tibetans, I have met enough Iraqi’s and Afghani’s to know they thought life would be so much better if they had democracy. After all they were so lucky to have escaped the hell they found themselves in.
Ofcourse now we can see real hell in places like Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan etc.. Before hell froze over I used to fight with some Iraqi’s about their wishes becoming true. And it did come true, they got democracy..
I have always wanted to go to Tibet, it was a dream. To experience the aura.. Its part of my spiritual quest.
So I am not a Chinese apologist. I think Tibet should be given freedom just like freedom for everyone. And if it were not for the US I have doubts the Chinese would have invaded. The Chinese like the Russians always wanted a buffer and making Tibet a part of China takes that away just like making Ukraine a part of Russia would hurt Russia more than anything.
We only know what we can see.. There are many sides to a story. You see Pakistan calls its area Free Kashmir.. They don’t even have elections there. People are much poorer and they are not so free to move around Pakistan. The Indian side is far more advanced and they can move to any other place in India and enjoy life like the rest. After all the area was Chinese anyway until India conquered it and then sold it to the British who sold it to a Hindu king. Yet everyone thinks Indian Kashmir is oppressed and should be given freedom. Heck even I agree with that. But neither the Chinese or Pakistanis will ever allow the area to be free.
So people can believe anything they want, it is their perception of their experiences. Perception is not truth. It is also not absolute. If Tibet is oppressed like you say, I say Blacks in the US are oppressed just as much and the natives in Canada and Australia are oppressed far worse. Considering the US has a Black President and India had a PM who was a Sikh, well Canada has a large Free Sikh community that bombs Indian planes.. Well how the heck can you say Blacks or Sikhs are oppressed? They hold or Held the highest posts in the country.
I believe it, that you think as how you do due to your experiences , but there are many truths.. You only know one of them.
Paul Robeson singing the PRC anthem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYGYvQICcks
Enjoy :)
In case there are still open minds here on the Dalai Lama,
here are just 2 links. This is the age of internet, truths are
harder to be hidden now, if open minds wants to look! My suspicions is
that some commentators where would just skip them, that’s ok, too, it’s
not like truth has to be forced upon you!
1. Dalai’s friends that no one wants to know about:
http://www.newspiritualbible.com/index2
2. Persecution of other Buddhist sects (click on other links on the left of this page):
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/video/dalai-lama-shoko-asahara/
In case there are still open minds here on the Dalai Lama,
here are just 2 links. This is the age of internet, truths are
harder to be hidden now, if open minds wants to look! My suspicions is
that some commentators where would just skip them, that’s ok, too, it’s
not like truth has to be forced upon you!
1. Dalai’s friends that no one wants to know about:
http://www.newspiritualbible.com/index2
2. Persecution of other Buddhist sects (click on other links on the left of this page):
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/video/dalai-lama-shoko-asahara/
I am really sad to read insults about me, about Serbian nation and about Yugoslavs, only because I defend Tibet here.
I as 90% of Serbs do NOT want to be a part of a Western world, of Anglo-Zionist nightmare. The whole NATO was bombing my country for 78 days, and we did not have any allies back then. Not even our beloved Russia. Yes, as I said first, NATO also bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade and killed people there.
But does that mean that I have to completely sacrifice my intellect and education in order to accept everything China has to say about destruction of Tibetan culture and religion?
Yes, we have to destroy the Zionists in order to survive on this planet, but should we replace one lie with another?
Russia is now in forced to make a strategic alliance with China. I do not think that Putin wanted that. A better idea was Europe from Lisbon to Vladivostok. A preferred option. Europe refused the idea, because it does not want to be led by Russia.
I will support Russian-Chinese alliance. I would support Russia unconditionally anyway. Almost any Serb would.
This alliance however is not enough to beat the Anglo-Zionists. Therefore it is of uttermost importance that India joins too. And India will.
That can also bring some political solution inside the new alliance for the Tibetan problem since India supports Tibetans.
Everybody satisfied???
Regards from Serbia,
The Wend.
Anonymous 17.41, even better (anything by the great Robeson, destroyed by poisoning and dozens of ECT sessions, by the Real Evil Empire, is wonderful)is him singing the Soviet Anthem. The music is, of course, the current Russian anthem, as it is a stirring tune. The Yeltsin anthem was a soul-less dirge, as one would expect. Can you imagine a greater contrast in humanity than between Robeson and Obama?
Anonymous 17.41, even better (anything by the great Robeson, destroyed by poisoning and dozens of ECT sessions, by the Real Evil Empire, is wonderful)is him singing the Soviet Anthem. The music is, of course, the current Russian anthem, as it is a stirring tune. The Yeltsin anthem was a soul-less dirge, as one would expect. Can you imagine a greater contrast in humanity than between Robeson and Obama?
@ Straight-Bat
This discussion takes up space on a general blog meant for everybody and if you insist then we should continue this discussion on a separate thread on Saker’s new blog. But to sketch some quick answers to your questions:
1. My comments were mainly a reaction to Mumblebrain’s statements which I understand as anti-Tibet.
2. China’s anthem: can you quote a single anthem which is as xenophobic and as us-against-them as this one? Doesn’t it mean anything to you that Wikipedia is being forced to obfuscate the translation? This is a permanent justification for any sort of war. Maybe you should listen to your human intelligence (which is able to handle emotion too) instead of your technical logic.
3.The science of lies: most of the Saker community are aware that the Western 1% are as psychopathic liars as anybody on the planet. But this is never acknowledged in public, and our MSM are making a big fuss about being very moral. This is not so in the Chinese tradition, where the 99% admire and completely agree with the ideas described in the stratagems. This is a completely different tradition – no responsibility to others or to other cultures, strength is the only argument. Interpreting their reactions in our terms is insufficient, you need to understand what /they/ mean in practice.
3. Dalai Lama: I have no special feeling for or against the Dalai Lama. I simply believe he is reacting as a ruler of an invaded country should react,i.e. he tries to get help for his people where he can (and who except the US dares opposing China?). And from what I know about Buddhism and Tibetans I would be very surprised if he were deceived by the AZ lies.
I will stop here because this answer is again becoming too long. If by tomorrow there are no other subjects in this space I will try to address your remaining questions if I can. But I believe we have a basic difference: you look at your questions from our point of view and you are completely unaware that their point of view is vastly different and produces very different reactions and consequences.
StraightBat 16.27, the hysteria of frankly racist Sinophobic hatred expressed by one of the apologists for the Dalai gang and their US controllers is quite nasty. We will need to get used to it, I’m afraid, because the ‘Clash of Civilizations’ mob hate and fear Chinese, primarily as non-European, non-Western ‘Others’ with a maniacal fury.
Tibet and China have been joined together for centuries. They have different cultures, but so too do Scotland and London, New York and Chicago. If the Tibetans were truly determined to be ‘independent’ whatever that means in a globalised world, that would be the best path to follow. But that is rendered impossible at present by US and other Western aggression. The greatest enemy of Tibet, as it is of the rest of humanity, is the USA. Its meddling, its subversion, render Chinese obduracy unavoidable.
The evil psychopaths who rule the USA regard Tibetans, as they do 99.9% of humanity, as untermenschen. They are tools in their machinations against China, nothing more, and, in the right circumstances they would ‘Shock and Awe’ them like Iraqis, Afghans, Indo-Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Filipinos, native American etc, and feel no pain whatsoever.
I recognise that sympathetic and well-meaning people have bought the Dalai gang’s propaganda, peddled so assiduously. I hope China offers the Dalai a compromise, but as US dupes don’t do compromise, I expect it to be rejected. Others, as I say, clearly bear a very nasty animus towards China and the Chinese, which I find despicable. But we are being primed for war with China and Russia-there can be no doubt about it. In decades of MSM coverage of China I can recall no positive stories, despite China’s economic miracle, but that is to be expected from a truly evil and sordid propaganda system infested by human detritus. But lately the negativity has grown, as with Russia, to a real hysteria of hatred.
NotSoFast, it is really quite silly to recommend Tibetan emigre groups as a source for information on Tibet. First there is no way of knowing if they even represent emigre opinion. There is no way of knowing whether they are influenced in any way by Western intelligence. Have they been back to Tibet to see the situation? By definition, by becoming emigres, they have indicated their opposition to Chinese rule, more so by organising against it.
Better to travel to Tibet, and even better to get in your TARDIS and check out the social conditions prior to 1950. The apologists for the Dalai gang are quite resolute in refusing to acknowledge the hideous social conditions endured by the vast bulk of the populace then, which makes me suspect their ideological position. There is no doubt that it is immeasurably better today, and compared to the plight of populations in countries under the US boot, like Iraq, the states of Central America etc it is far, far, better, with real prospects amounting to near certainty, of improving further, while the situation in the West and its colonies only grows ever worse. And that, as surely as night follows day, would be the Tibetans’ fate if the Dalai gang and their US overlords returned to power. If they can screw Greece and Mexico into the shit, they will show no compunction in Tibet. The Dalai gang, as loyal stooges, would do rather better, however. PS. Congratulations on the inversion of facts in true Orwellian ‘Free Press’ style, where your completely unsubstantiated assertions are rendered factual, and all the facts outlined by the other side are declared superficial. You don’t work for Murdoch, do you?
Alien Tech @17.08
Wish your hope of visiting Tibet be realized soon. Actually it is not difficult, nor expensive these days.
Just want correct you on one count: China NEVER invaded Tibet. That is evil empire speak. In 1952, People’s Liberation Army (PLA) liberated Tibet, from the old regime of local landlords and Kuomingtong Administration (the Nationalist). It was not that different from PLA marching into Beijing two years earlier. Now have you ever heard of China invading Beijing in 1949? In all books, journals, official document of that time, Tibet was described as part of China if ever mentioned. In western newspapers, there was no mention of invasion when PLA marched in, because common sense says one do not invade one’s own sovereign land. The concept of China “invaded” Tibet was created later after Dalai fled Tibet, under influence of foreign subversion. He fled in 1959, after a West instigated riot (actually a revolt staged by the landed nobles), and that started the the legend of China invading Shangrila.
I also want to apologize to Wend. Did not meant to insult the Serbian nation.
Peace to all truth seekers.
China’s national anthem March of Volunteers was originally composed as a battle hymn against the Japanese invasion.
It was originally written for a movie, and became a war anthem for the Guomindang soldiers. It was banned in the Republic (Taiwan island) only after adopted as the national anthem after the Communist triumph.
There is nothing aggressive or war-like about a tune to arouse an apathetic and apolitical people (as many Chinese were then) to defend the mother land – including Tibet and Xinjiang – against a ruthless foreign invader.
The commenter has simply twisted the facts to suit his alternative reality for propaganda reasons.
re: the invasion of Tibet.
Tibet was never in its history a Chinese province: it was a province of the Mongolian Empire which also conquered China, and at one time a Tibetan ruler married a Chinese princess, but these facts do not make a Chinese province out of Tibet. Tibet had its own language, writing and culture, there were no Chinese populations and Tibetans certainly did not want to be invaded. The Chinese claim that Tibet has always been theirs is a legalistic manipulation designed to spread confusion, just like their new claim that the South China Sea has always been theirs.
As to the theocratic rulers of Tibet before 1950 pls. refer to my comment at 14:57. If the Tibetans were so unhappy with their rulers why are they carrying their pictures, pray for their return and burn themselves to death in protest against the Chinese occupation?
Chinese culture.
To repeat an important part of my arguments: most of the posters who repeat the Chinese propaganda have never in their lives had any sustained contacts with the Chinese culture, and this makes our discussions nearly impossible. If you feel that the members of all the Tibet-support groups in the world are just fools or knaves then maybe you should try and find somebody else who has experienced the Chinese tradition – maybe a diplomat with some years of sevice there, or a businessman. But In your shoes I would probably not understand either – it’s simply another world. Good luck to all of us.
If people want more detailed information on NotSoFast’s points.. It pretty much matches his version of things. To a great extent Tibet was manipulated by the Russians and British to use against china and then the US empire got involved. And as we know from history, where ever the US goes, Organ harvesting is the norm.
http://asianhistory.about.com/od/china/a/TibetandChina.htm
Although the Pope is spiritual, mecca sees every Muslim in the world and Iran is run under a religious diktat.
China also claims many parts of India, Especially those northern parts connected with Buddhism. Even though it was created by an European invader who was also a warrior prince whos tribes enslaved the natives as untouchables.
I dont trust any religion. They are responsible for the most deaths on the planet. Ron Hubbard knew what the tricks were and started his own and now its also a minor deity in its own right.
I dont accept the Chinese versions because they became the Chinese and went east, the Indians settled in the Indus valley and got run off into southern India. So China cant claim those lands just because others invaded it later on and discovered what the Chinese craves. By the same token, Pakistan invaded India and took what was not their’s and China invaded India and took some land they had lost before. But SO what! Everyone invaded everyone else! Europeans would not exist if they had not exterminated everyone else in their path. Considering most everyone here has european blood in them and only the extent of it is different, you dont throw throw stones while living in a glass house.
@China’s anthem: can you quote a single anthem which is as xenophobic and as us-against-them as this one?
Ever heard of La Marseillaise, France’s national anthem?
OleImmigrant, once again I agree with you, and also wish to apologise to wend for upsetting her sensibilities. I’m sure that she sincerely wants what is best for Tibetans, but I simply do not believe that the CIA run Dalai gang is the answer. NotSoFast’s very antipathetic comments re. Chinese culture, not its elites, is, I believe, very regretable, particularly in the context of the Real Evil Yankee Empire’s growing aggression and belligerence. Believe me, I know something about Chinese culture and believe that a world led by China would be markedly better for the majority of humanity than the world dominated by the Yankee Reich
@WizOz: China national anthem
Yes I thought of that one while I was writing the comment, and I could have formulated it better – but here are the differences as I see them:
– I feel the Marseillaise as boastful, aggressive and proud (I did my studies in France) and the China anthem as grim and merciless. Btw why does Wikipedia need to obfuscate the translation? A national anthem is always designed for everybody, it is not a University text that needs complicated dissecting.
– conquest times are obviously over for France but obviously not for China
– in the French colonies the percentage of minorities never decreased to 8%
@ Mulga Mumblebrain:
“Believe me, I know something about Chinese culture and believe that a world led by China would be markedly better for the majority of humanity than the world dominated by the Yankee Reich”
I believe it would be the same.
“Conquest times are over for France”. Where were you when the French were bombing Libya under cover of R2P? Or invading Mali under the pretext of protection (again!)? Oh, maybe they were just excuses for Sarkozy and Hollande to distract from domestic issues!
Yea the Chinese kills foreign politicians all over the place if they don’t toe the line, black mails, bribes, intimidates and threaten people all over the world even in supposedly friendly and neutral countries to sabotage their own development, trains, organizes and funds terrorists to overthrow their governments to gain advantage, spies on everyone mostly for industrial gains and steals talent and intellectual property by scamming and skimming the cream of the crop all the while patenting and copyrighting everything left and right using revisionist history.
So they can act as an exceptional high IQ society.. And they don’t really care about invented here or on that insignificant little island.