Foreword by the Saker: Kakaouskia has been a regular contributor to this blog and when I realized that he had first had experience with Western and Russian armor (as a career officer) I asked him to write a short “compare and contrast” between the designs these very different schools of armor design and use. I hope that you will find this exercise interesting and, if yes, I could try to post more such comparisons for combat aircraft and submarines (these two being, in my opinion, systems where the differences in philosophy of design are the most dramatic). Let me know if that is of interest to you.
A bit THANK YOU to Kakaousia for his time and work!
The Saker
——-
Heavy Metal – A comparison of Russian and Western armour
by Kakaouskia
Greetings to the Saker community and readers.
At the request of the Saker, I am presenting you with a brief comparison of Russian and Western armour. This article will focus on the two major schools of tank and armoured vehicle design: Russian and Western (German and the US being the prime examples). I will not go into great technical details as the metallurgy comparison alone is a subject suitable for a thesis. Nor will I compare the T-14 Armata family as so little are known of these vehicles at the moment.
What is a main battle tank (MBT) and what is an infantry fighting vehicle (IFV)?
To put it simply, an MBT and an IFV are moderate to rather complicated weapon systems. The reason I am using the term weapon system is because you need a set of components and people working together for them to be effective; usually in combined operations (as compared with an assault rifle or a pistol).
The main purpose of an MBT is to provide heavy firepower and support to infantry at medium ranges (~5Km) with direct fire. The purpose of an IFV is to transfer infantry safely into harm’s way and stay there to help in the fight. In fact MBTs should NOT enter cities unless absolutely necessary and ALWAYS with infantry support – remember what happened to Russian armoured columns in Grozny.
The video below from Syria indicate the folly of driving around in cities on your own:
Battlefield philosophy
After the end of WWII and the formation of NATO and the Warsaw pact two distinct philosophies of armoured battle were developed. These philosophies played a pivotal role on how MBTs and IFVs were designed until the early 2000s and after the second Gulf war.
NATO’s doctrine was to hold the line against numerically superior forces thus emphasis was placed on armour and ergonomics. The NATO doctrine stipulated that MBTs and IFVs would operate under heavy air-force and artillery cover with the probable use of tactical nukes to thin the Soviet numbers. Reserves were supposed to be utilised to fill possible gaps or take advantage of possible openings for a counter attack.
On the other hand, Soviet philosophy was to “lower battlefield elevation by at least 3m using artillery and then unleash hundreds of pieces of armour in the plains of Eastern Europe and not stop for whatever reason” as it was eloquently put by Russian officers I talked with. The idea was to quickly overrun the NATO defences thus negating the ability of air support due to proximity and for that purpose the reserves were to be used to enhance the units that broke through and not the units that stalled (Russian military doctrine accepts the fact that there is no war without casualties).
The two schools of armour design
The effects of these two philosophies are visible in the designs of that era: the M-48, M-60, M-1 tanks are huge, likewise is the M2/M3 IFV. (IFVs are supposed to match the MBTs as they are operating together and should be able to keep up with each other). Germans with the Leopard 1, Leopard 2 MBTs and Marder IFV are a bit in the middle giving a little more emphasis in mobility; still they are way too heavy.
General characteristics of all the aforementioned is heavy weight (due to the need for better armour), 105mm (early models) to 120mm (later models) main gun (25mm – 30mm for IFVs) with 12.7mm and 7.62mm machine guns as secondary armament. In fact the M-48 and especially the M-60 are so tall that it is difficult to hide them behind hills (thus the M1 being more streamlined). Standard crew is 4 for MBTs (Driver, Commander, Gunner and Loader) and 3 for IFVs. (Driver, Commander, Gunner). The turret design in western tanks has evolved from an oval bubble (M-48, M-60) to turrets utilising sharp corners (M1, Leopard 2).
Russian tanks on the other hand are smaller in all dimensions due to the mobility requirement plus the fact that they have adopted autoloaders. This also reduces the crew number to 3 people (Driver, Commander and Gunner). Since the T-64, the armament of Russian tanks has been largely the same: 125mm primary gun, 12.7mm NSVT and 7.62mm PKT machine guns; each generation improving upon the previous one. Turrets have evolved from a circular design (T-62) to circle with steep edges (T-90) to sharp corners (T-14).
M1A2 compared to T80U. Russian tanks could always utilise the environment better due to size.
Saudi tanks against Houthi in Yemen. Look how easy it is to pick an M-60 from the background while “hiding” and again the folly of operating without infantry. The other tank in the video is a French-made AMX30B2 used by the Saudis.
T90 vs Leopard 2 vs Abrams Notice the difference in turret design philosophy.
Source: http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2074/comparison_abrams_t90_leopard_UPDATE.png2.png
Frontal comparison of modern MBTs. Leopard 2A5 onwards has a completely redesigned turret.
Source: http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8489/sabestrefyfrontbaza2.jpg
Specifications of modern MBTs
Source: http://i60.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/45/7f0668874adaeadeb45c10e9ed8bcc45.jpg
Contrary to its Western counterparts, the BMP series of IFVs features higher calibre guns as primary armament (reaching 100mm on BMP3) with 7,62mm and the 30mm being secondary armament. This heavier firepower is needed as the IFVs are supposed to fight next to the infantry; in fact the BMP3 is unique in this aspect because its armament complex can fire to an elevation of +60 degrees. The reason for this is to engage the odd infantry man with an RPG suddenly appearing from a balcony above you. The down side of having big guns is that there is the need for extra supply chain of munitions.
So, which one is better?
There is a saying at armour school: The best tank is the one with the best crew. This was proven time and again in battle; I urge the readers to have a quick look at Michael Wittmann and the battle of Villers-Bocage on the 13/06/1944. This day is known to tankists as “The day of the Tiger”. Russia organises every year a tank biathlon which is a good indication of the level of training in some areas like driving skills, loading procedures etc but not field repair techniques by the crew. Plus it can demonstrate different tactics in common tank “problems” (for example shooting while stationary which increases accuracy but makes you a target vs shooting on the move).
Generally, in terms of vulnerability the rear of the vehicle is the most vulnerable, followed by the top (hence the existence of A-10 and SU-25), sides and finally the front. Another saying from armour school: Don’t show your ass to the enemy. You are going to get shafted.
Western MBTs have slightly better protection and until the introduction of Thales’s Catherine FC thermal imager in the T-90 (T-80 can be upgraded with it) they enjoyed far better night fighting capabilities. For reasons unknown until Russia cooperated with France in creating the Catherine series, it was suicide to fight at night in a Russian tank.
In terms of munitions, both sides are more or less equal with top of the line shells able to achieve hard kills at 5Km. Russian 125mm shells come in two pieces (propellant and shell) whereas NATO 120mm shells are a single piece so that the loader can load faster. Russian tanks enjoy a small advantage here as the autoloader can sustain a constant rate of fire as opposed to a human loader which will become tired at some point. Russian designers also came up with a novel design for their 7.62mm and 12.7mm bullet cartridges. Since these calibres are used by both NATO and Russia, the Russian machine guns can use NATO munitions while thanks to the special design of the bullets NATO machine guns cannot use Russian ammo, thus giving a small logistics advantage to Russian armour.
Russian guns can also fire guided missiles although the usefulness in the battlefield is still debated as the launching vehicle has to maintain target lock (thus be immobile) until the missile hits the target. Therefore while in theory a BMP3 can kill a Leopard 2 in practice this is difficult. Consider that the most advanced ATGM the BMP3 can fire is the 9M117M1which has a maximum range of 5.5Km. However target acquisition usually takes place around 5Km and to fire a laser-guided missile (SACLOS) you need to be standing still and have a clear line of sight. Which means the enemy can see you. Now ATGMs are fast, but even the fastest needs around 10 seconds to travel to the maximum distance. On the other hand, an armour piercing round (APFSDS) fired from L44 (gun used in M1 and Leopard 2) and L55 (modernised gun for Leopard 2) travels at anything between 1500m/s to 2000m/s (depending on temperature, wind, gun and a lot of other conditions). Therefore the tank gunner, if it spots the BMP3 early enough can acquire target (1.5 seconds) and fire a shot which will need only another 3 seconds to hit the target. And even though kinetic energy shells loose energy over distance, the BMP3s armour isn’t powerful enough to stop a modern APFSDS round. And SACLOS missiles have the downside of missing the target if the laser lock is gone even for a second (same applies to wire-guided missiles like MILAN and TOW; damage or cut the wire and they are gone).
On the other hand, the 25mm and 30mm cannons sported by Bradley and Marder have no hope of destroying a T-80 or a T-90 let alone a T-14 Armata on a frontal assault, which is why they sport ATGM launchers and these ATGMs are subject to the same limitations as the BMP3. Usually the cannons in these IFVs are used to target the optical complex of the gunner as an attempt to blind the enemy tank (no optics => can’t fire) while making their escape. In theory, a barrage of 30mm can kill a tank if and only if is fired at the most vulnerable areas (say rear) at very close distances (less than 1Km). This is something which no sane IFV commander will do.
As the BMP3 can withstand 30mm ammo only in the front quarter, Russia has beefed up T-15 and Kurganets-25 while replacing the 100mm cannon with Kornet-EM launchers which have a reported range of 8Km thus giving them a fighting chance against tanks.
Still, an ATGM is a potent weapon at the hands of infantry as they present far less a target than a vehicle and can hide much easier. Combined with proper training – mainly when to fire, at what and where on the target to aim – ATGM teams can be devastating as experienced by Merkava IVs in Lebanon. It is also rumoured that the US lost quite a few M1s in Iraq to militias carrying classic RPG launchers but equipped with Chinese-made advanced AT rockets. The militias supposedly got close to the M1s taking advantage of the terrain and fired from close distances (<150m) at the rear of the Abrams to disable it.
Inside the turret now, NATO tanks are generally more ergonomic and with more electronics than Russian tanks. In fact, one can describe the turret of the T-80 as Spartan in comparison. Once the firing control system is started the gunner in a T-80 can operate the turret, load shells and fire any gun using a total of 2 levers and 5 buttons.
Since the Russians were aware that NATO would not hesitate to use tactical nukes in Eastern Europe, their tanks are designed to operate in an environment of high radiation and EM interference. Characteristically the navigation system in a T-80 has ZERO electronic components. Another internal difference is the firing mechanism. Western tanks typically use an electrical system for firing the main gun (not sure for M1Ax and Leopard 2s) whereas Russian tanks utilise an electrical and a mechanical firing mechanism which provides a failsafe. From experience it takes a second for a trained gunner to switch from electrical to mechanical firing.
Russians also have the ability to drop the BMP family IFVs by air. While a Bradley weights 27.6 tons and a Marder 1A5 37.4 tons, a BMP3 is only 18.7 tons. This allows for the highly risky (yet effective if done properly) tactic of dropping BMP3s with parachutes while the infantry is in the vehicle. Also all Russian IFVs are designed with the ability to swim across lakes and rivers with little or no preparation (BMP3 employs hydro jets for this).
A distinct advantage of Russian MBTs is the use of active protection systems since the T-80. The first of these systems was Shtora and was deployed on the T-80. It includes a combination of detectors, jammers and special smoke grenades with intent to confuse and distract incoming anti-tank missiles (like MILAN and TOW) or force the gunners / missile operators to lose sight of the tank long enough for it to escape. This system does require sufficient training though to be effective. More modern systems enjoy a higher degree of automation and can employ hard-kill options even for incoming anti-tank shells. While western countries have developed such systems, their use is almost non-existent in NATO tanks.
Propulsion wise most Russian and NATO tanks employ diesel engine and have similar range performance. The only exceptions are the T-80 and M1 which use multi-fuel gas turbines (little jet engines). In my view this is a mistake as these engines are more complicated in their maintenance as the mechanics are forced to think in operating hours vs operating mileage. Moreover, jet engines are thirstier when idle and in a battlefield Jet-A1 fuel is much harder to come by as opposed to diesel. Yes, the engines can consume anything but experience with the T-80 has shown that if the fuel is not clean enough problems arise. Thus the T-90 and Armata are using diesel engines. Finally, as an MBT will be in service for 20 or 30 years it stands to reason that upgrades to the armour or other things that add weight will take place. Therefore the engine needs to be able to grow along with the tank to maintain the kinematic characteristics (although more weight => bigger output from the engine => possibly new gearbox to handle the output and if you reach that point it is time to design a new tank).
Video: a Syrian T-72s trapped in a city street. Interesting is the number of hits this T-72 can withstand.
Video: A nice and rare documentary of Russian equipment in battle with embedded English subtitles. Starting at 3:55 there is an interview with a Russian tank commander during the fighting in Grozny, 1996.
Telling it like it is brother!
Excellent post.
armor= amour…love this stuff. thanks.
A video here of Houthi’s/Yemen militia? attacking armour with little more than assault rifles. Houthi’s win.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX1wJ4qdxR4&feature=youtu.be
I am not sure who makes this bullet but there was one M1 that had a very small bullet hole that went straight through both sides. It could have been a test to see what this new bullet could do. I never heard anything about it after that but the US was concerned by it at the time but since no more they thought it was some kind of fluke from an RPG round that hit it. But the hole was nothing like the holes made by that molten copper penetrating rounds. Even a titanium bullet should not have penetrated it and DU rounds would only make a dent but could be seen as such. But one thing I noticed is it is not just soviet tanks that blows its head off, M1’s can also blow their tops. But as always, no one was even injured.. I wonder what the real casualty figures were, I know crew safety is very important but it sure aint a Ferrari or porsch where it can be totaled and the driver walks out…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-29#2003_Iraq_War
“The RPG-29’s PG-29V tandem-charge warhead is one of the few anti-tank weapons that can penetrate the frontal hulls of Western composite-armored main battle tanks.”
” I never heard anything about it after that but the US was concerned by it at the time but since no more they thought it was some kind of fluke from an RPG round that hit it.”
In Vietnam I’ve seen an RPG-2 exit hole on one of our M-113 APC’s.It was about the size of a silver dollar.For us the biggest worry was that the projectile would hit the stacks of ammo cans and whatever else that we had inside.This would cause a hellish explosion leading to the absolute total destruction of the vehicle.I’ve also seen pictures of a similar small RPG hole on a tank used in the 1st Iraq war.I can’t remember which kind of tank this was though.
I think the M1 armor is like 8-9 feet of steel equivalent? To make an entry and a exit hole would mean this was a new type of penetrator that could do something like this because all the anti-tank weapons can only make an entry. So this is a huge deal if it can be reproduced even if it can only do this to the side armor. Iraq-war was pretty good at bringing us news on such things before putin shut them down to be fiends with boosh the conquerer I looked into his ayes…..
Maybe you are looking for a “explosively formed penetrator” .
“Maybe you are looking for a “explosively formed penetrator” .
You may be correct.
/heavy-metal-a-comparison-of-russian-and-western-armour/comment-page-1/#comment-160721
Saker
Yes, more of these sorts of comparisons, that also include good descriptions of how they work, like this essay, about all sorts of weapon systems would be very useful. Most readers probably are quite ignorant of this sort of material, it’s not really covered outside of specialized sources they would not follow.
Kakaouskia
Thanks. An excellent job. You provided a decent mix of technical and general info, as well a good description how these things work in action. And you did this in an easily accessible manner in which even those who have little exposure to the subject can understand it.
Yeah, I second that.
Plus two more things.
You say in comment on the second vid from the bottom “Video: a Syrian T-72s trapped in a city street. Interesting is the number of hits this T-72 can withstand.” Which side is this Syrian T-72 on, because the attackers yell “death to America, death to Israel”? (or maybe FOR America, FOR Israel :)
Also, you mention a documentary about Russian hardware which there is no link for.
Thanks for a great post, looking for more on the topic. Cheers!
Excellent overview, thank you. I would definitely like to see similar comparisons of aircraft and submarines.
Saker, Kakaouskia, John Rambo, or whoever,
I am fascinated by the projectile featured in a couple of the videos in the article, which appears as a red flare-like object honing in on the enemy tank turret. What is this?! It appears to be extremely “intelligent” and has a highly variable velocity. What exactly is it keying on to find the tank, is it an electronic signal located in the turret?
It’s a TOW missile – wire guided.
Disregard my previous comment! I saw “Konkurs” in the title of one of the videos and Wikipedia did the rest :)
But I forgot to say: I would definitely appreciate more of these comparisons, and the video links are quite instructive.
Speaking of A-10s, the USAF doesn’t like them because destroying ground targets isn’t ‘cool’. Theyre planning to eliminate the A-10s when they finish the F-35s, even though F-35s arnt designed for ground targets…
line removed for language mod-hs
Well, there are many versions of ‘flying brick’ to choose from.
Good Post.
In the section “The two schools of armour design”:
The Soviet MBT’s turret shape comes from their long dislike of bustle magazines. Soviet designers deemed them to be too vulnerable in combat, as 74% of all hits received on MBT’s are on the turret. Having a bustle that sticks out like a sore thumb when you rotate the turret even 30 degrees doesn’t help.
This a a damn good graphic to demonstrate this vulnerability. Keep in mind, 2/3 of all shots are in that red band, i hope you see why having all the crew in the hull is important.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GZLj_hy0-Cs/VS1S0naTsxI/AAAAAAAALHg/rQs0nUhjyFE/s1600/danger.jpg
In the section “So, which one is better?”:
“Russian tanks enjoy a small advantage here as the autoloader can sustain a constant rate of fire as opposed to a human loader which will become tired at some point.”
Stationary, the manual loader can fire a bit faster until he’s exhausted, but when moving on even semi-rough terrain, when the tank and breech are bouncing around, the autoloader is significantly faster that human loader. Manual loading is simply outdated and archaic, the newest “western” MBT’s like the French AMX Leclerc, S. Korean K2, and Japanese Type 10 all feed their 120mm’s with an autoloader.
You mention gun launched ATGM or GLATGM but you didn’t mention the whole reason why they were put on soviet tanks in the first place… range. The effective range for APFSDS is 2km. The effective range for an GLATGM is 5km. This allowed soviet MBT’s to match the range of the latest anti-tank systems NATO had, including their helicopter gunships. Against other MBT’s the Soviet’s GLATGM’s gave their MBT’s the first hit range and accuracy advantage.
“Western MBTs have slightly better protection and until the introduction of Thales’s Catherine FC thermal imager in the T-90 (T-80 can be upgraded with it) they enjoyed far better night fighting capabilities. For reasons unknown until Russia cooperated with France in creating the Catherine series, it was suicide to fight at night in a Russian tank.”
Regarding passive IR optics, throughout the cold war, they were not common enough to make a difference. Only a handful of NATO’s latest MBT’s had them, and night vision for infantry was unheard of at the time. Night time combined ops during the Cold War of 1980 would have been an impossibility. Even today, the Coalition in A-stan prefers to fight at day time because combined ops are just too challenging in the dark, even with the latest technology.
And air-droppable BMP’s are designated as BMD.
“Heavy Metal – A comparison of Russian and Western armour”
The opponents in significant areas exhibit technology fetishes, such fetishes de-emphasising human agency whilst emphasising commodities and relationships of objects.
These technology fetishes not only constitute significant parts of the opponents’ worldview, but are also held to “guarantee” the sustainability of their system of exceptionalism.
Amongst the wider populace this immersion in technology fetishes can be illustrated by the plethora of “gun culture” publications, and in the plethora of publications projecting other commodities whether they be Windows 10, or cosmetics by Dior, or fishing rods.
These technology fetishes are oftentimes used as incantations to ward off evil spirits, as salves to ward off doubt, and/or deflection stratigies in respect of issues such as
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article43187.htm
Clausewitz was of the view that war is politics by other means, where as more up to date practice suggests that war is politics.
If that is so technology fetishes are very dangerous.
As far as I am aware this is well understood by the representatives of the Russian Federation.
When addressing 7.62 and 12.7 mm you state Russia can use NATO but NATO cannot use Russian.
That needs clarification; It is oft stated that 7.62x54mm NATO can interchange with 7.62×39 AK; this is tacitly false.
Are you speaking of bullets or loaded cartridges? The difference is important.
Thanks for an otherwise good read.
Cheers
You mean 7.62x51NATO. The 7.62×54 Russian GPMG round is slightly longer and has a rimmed casing…in any case no comparison to 7.62×39…I’m an AK shooter and I know.
The fact remains: Russia can not fire NATO ammo. I’m surprised the author of the article didn’t know better.
Sorry, yes I know, my mistake by 3 silly mm. The myth was, during Nam, that the AK round was interchangeable with the M-14 round. The authors statement regarding 7.62 and 12.7mm one way interchageability with NATO 7.62 & .50 cal is just wrong. Speaking bullets not cartidges I’m assuming, still wrong though.
Cheers
Dear Kakaousia,
Thank you very much for this very detailed and excellent post.
Since Russia started its campaign in Syria all u see are articles about how “surprised” the US is with the Russian army and how good, quick and efficient it is. So these comparisons are very helpful to non military individuals.
Rgds,
Veritas
It has become so corrupt in the USA that making weapons is NOT first and foremost for the defence of America (anymore), but to make as much money as possible for the defence contractors, case in point the F-35.
Beautifully done description of different systems.
Thanks very much.
Similar writing on war planes ans submarines would also be very educative.
Thanks in advance.
Please, do post more of this. Always had an interest in comparisons between Russian and western militairy hardware. Interesting doc on YT: The engines that came in from the cold.
Old, hands down russian engineering, some in the US were shocked.
Saker, this was really refreshing! I would strongly urge you to continue whit articles like this in the future, it was truly an interesting reading!
Regards//Daniel M.
More on Russia’s outstanding ‘jamming’ capabilites:
” Hodges also mentioned area and access denial capabilities that Russia has in Kaliningrad and Crimea. According to the US general, Moscow is quite capable of denying access to the Baltic Sea
“Then they have the ability to create sort of a bubble over a quarter of the Mediterranean with the air defense systems that they have put into Syria,” the general added.”
http://sputniknews.com/military/20151020/1028793303/us-russia-syria-military-capabilities.html#ixzz3p7Ay0uw5
Old Soviet Missile Makes Easy Work of US M1 Abrams Tank (VIDEO)
No Gerbils were harmed in blowing up this M1 tank…
The missile system is designed to destroy advanced and modern tanks fitted with explosive reactive armor from 1,100mm to 1,300mm, light-armored vehicles and fortifications.
It can also engage surface-level marine and low-speed aerial targets at ranges between 150m and 10,000m and offers high immunity against jamming.
http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150908/1026737762/russia-kornet-abrams-missile.html
Saker, when you take a (much needed) break, why not have a weekly sandbox? Then I can mention that I was in Donetsk last week, and spoke to Russell (Texas – Bentley). ;)
Ralph,
Did you get a Selfie? (/snark fun)
Seriously, I do think that some sort of open-thread feature should be considered; but some thought should be given to avoid unintended problems. This blog is, and should be, rather tightly controlled. Allowing the freedom of expression that it does for those genuinely interested has to be balanced with prevention of intentional nonsense (and intentional verbal sabotage).
I am interested in reading of your meeting Texas, but as you imply, this seems not to be the logical place for you to write of it. Maybe send email to Saker about a “special report”? [And yes, you should include the selfie. : ) ]
Lowering battlefield elevation by 3m using artillery and then unleashing hundreds of pieces of armour seems like a dumb strategy to me. Anglosphere armies were over 3 time the size of Soviet one (in terms of manpower), yet they weren’t devoted to the idea of mass casulties to achive their objectives, which in my mind are not worth the casulties (and on top of that they weren’t shy about using tactical nukes you say). Why such small respect to the greatest advantage Soviet political and military leadership have had over the Anglosphere one? Reall stupid. Smart leadership can make wonders with such faithful and devoted people, Soviet one managed to ruin and destroy everything their people had been sacrificing themselves for.
Dear Kakaouskia,
You write:
“…in terms of vulnerability the rear of the vehicle is the most vulnerable, followed by the top…”
Well I saw a lot of impacts of TOWs on tanks, like here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1VWPOpYbQI
So the “rocket” explodes exactly when it’s above the tank (2-3 meters). Is this because of the weak armour on top of the tank?
I was wondering, why the TOWs don’t hit the tank directly…
Do the Russians have countermeasures to TOWs?
Do the Russians have an equivalent to TOWs?
Actually, the top of a tank has the thinnest armour, followed by the bottom. This is a practical compromise because of space. To provide the same thickness on top and bottom as front and sides would make the tank much taller and an easier target. Also it would reduce it’s mobility.
The TOW-2B has downward facing explosively formed penetrator warheads (EFP). The missile flies over the target, then fires two slugs 90 degrees downwards towards the thin roof armor.
To answer your questions:
Do the Russians have countermeasures to TOWs?
Yes, numerous methods of protection can counter ATGM’s. In the Cold War, they had Shtora IR dazzlers that could effectively jam the TOW launcher’s guidance system. Many late model Soviet tanks were equipped with laser warning systems that could detect when someone was pointing a rangefinder or laser designator at the tank, and automatically aim the gun at the source of the laser while simultaneously deploying smoke countermeasures to conceal the tank. The Soviet’s also had hard-kill active protection in the 80’s called Drozd, that could intercept ATGM’s before they hit the tank. Even early explosive reactive armor (ERA) like Kontakt-1 is effective against the TOW 2B’s explosively formed penetrator warhead, hence why they added two warheads to give it a better chance against ERA.
The Afghanit active protection suite on Armata is definitely capable of defeating the latest ATGM’s.
Do the Russians have an equivalent to TOWs?
Kornet is the equivalent System.
I think Soviet leadership should have been devoted to the idea of letting the Atlantic armies’ armor in, and then wipe it out via guerilla tactics. The casulties would be much smaller thus and objective achieved. There are much better and smarter ways for something of the greatest importance for the leadership od a nation to be used in a war with the enemy than mindlessly assaulting something. I would have, for example, send several 30-50 megaton nuclear bombs down to the bottom of the Atlantic and several more of lesser magnitude close to Murican west coast, and then detonated them. The wave would be enormous, a couple of kilomters at least, and it would destroy all of Europe and Murica. I would then use all other nuclear weapons to finish them off (would have great stockpiles of nuclear weapons you know; possibly several hundred thousand! *and also wouldn’t forget to nuke all vulcanos in vicinity of their lands, god forbid!*). “So, let them come,” would be my motto. :)
Note to Republika Srpska – i fully understand the sentiment but the planet could not survive the type of onslaught you describe, we would ALL roast…Patton stated something like “there is no merit in our poor dumb bastard dying for our country – the whole purpose is for the other poor dumb bastard to die for HIS country” – so there is a far easier way – ONE thermonuclear bomb right into the Yellowstone Magma chamber…(there are YouTube videos describing the result) and one each on the Pentagon and Langley. I have a high degree of confidence in Russian targeting…
Remember that the ICBM and Minuteman missile silo operators have only recently complained the silos are so badly maintained and the missiles have all lost their fizz-bang so that the systems are not operational. Did they not also say that a whole group of US military guys complained that “aliens have been seen disabling the US silos” ??
Widespread mental illness will destroy the US from within long before any missiles need to be launched at them…
“Analyst”
Perhaps you are showing ambition in the title.
Apprently you like General Patton thought “war” is largely restricted to things that go bang.
The normal quote from General Patton, also quoted in the film was
“You don’t win wars by dying for your country, but by making the other poor bastard die for his.”
General Patton was sidelined in part for his “political naivete” which was a polite way of saying over-extending his abilities into areas of geo-political strategy. General MacArthur was dismissed for similar reasons.
Analysts not only normally work in teams, but in a collegiate manner discuss with and report to the strategists.
Strategy is always prime in professional organisations, although often the opponents fail to be guided by this principle.
The probable strategic purpose is to transcend the opponents.
Your proposed tactic would not facilitate that.
However your contribution illustrates the validity of comments made in
/heavy-metal-a-comparison-of-russian-and-western-armour/comment-page-1/#comment-161285
and
/heavy-metal-a-comparison-of-russian-and-western-armour/comment-page-1/#comment-160721
You also conflate the opponents with a nation state or a collection of nation states thereby precluding strategic thinking.
Another comparison on tanks, planes and more:
http://web.archive.org/web/20060509044135/http://www.pro-american.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6906
Just a comment, most T-80s do not use gas turbine engines. The Russians realized their mistake early and corrected by replacing it with a trusty diesel.
“Russian guns can also fire guided missiles although the usefulness in the battlefield is still debated as the launching vehicle has to maintain target lock (thus be immobile) until the missile hits the target. ”
I don’t believe that’s a correct assessment.
Russian gun launched ATGM’s are beam riding, not wire guided. TOW has to be stationary because the wire is dragged behind the missile and can be snagged if the launching platform moves, laser and radar beam riders only need an open line of sight for the duration on the missile’s flight.
a point about that destruction of saudi’s M1 Abrams tanks in yemen .. the M1 Abrams export version is the ‘monkey’ model with no additional armour called ‘depleted uranium armour’ inserted in their boxy frontal hull and turret area..
but on another note , the ATGM used by the yemeni patriots are also ‘monkey’ model ATGM export version..
so the russian ‘monkey’ ATGM defeated the american ‘monkey’ tanks..
Only warsaw pact countries got the real weapons just like not even Australia gets the American versions although Israel does and well so does india get similar versions but in case people have forgotten, USSR and India had a mutual defense pact in the 70’s but not with Russia so now india gets the export version which was a major reason for india to look at western weapons. Only Israel sells the real deal to india.. Russia has only now been selling china and india weapons or they say they are but have not yet.. So we don’t really know the capabilities of either American or Russian weapons systems in action against the real thing.
…while in the U.S. armies they use M1s with all the bells and whistles and man them with monkeys.
:D
This site discussed the vurnerability of M1 abrams from incidents in iraq
http://btvt.narod.ru/4/t-90vsabrams.htm
Great work, indeed. I Would certainly like to have more articles like this posted on your site Saker.
Outstanding article!! I also would like, as Saker, to see articles about differences in philosophy of design of submarines and fighters; but also I would like to see an article about the innovations in the design of Armata with respect to previous tanks. It seems Armata radically departs from the previous Soviet/Russian tanks design philosophy.
I also want to congratulate Kakaousia for this excellent article.
Greetings from Argentina
Mon oncle was in tanks WW1 -His advice was-stay in the infantry-at least you have a chance of surving.
Excellent article, but I think in all the tech talk it misses one very important point of comparison:
How much do these things cost?
Shermans were awful, but the Americans could stamp the buggers out on a Ford car assembly line. Their philosophy has shifted over the years, to put it mildly, and now often seems like the idea is, “The more a unit costs, the more the contractor profits and the cushier the procurer’s job will be after he moves to the private sector”.
If my tanks are half as good as yours, but cost 1/5th as much to produce, advantage: Me. If they’re a little better and cost way less to produce, advantage definitely: Me. For as long as I can keep the process relatively low on corruption, anyhow.
Very good piece lots of info.
If anyone is a design nerd like me, I’d recommend this documentary—“The Genius of Design”
specifically, episode 3 “Blueprint for War”
re. WWII, comparing Allies v. German design philosophies, Tiger tank, Liberty ships, Mosquito, etc.