A number of bloggers and media outlets have suggested that maybe the Ukies had tried to down President Putin’s Il-96-300PU which externally looks like a Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777. I am frankly dubious. Yes, the junta in Kiev is evil and crazy, but not suicidal and such an attack is an act of war which would trigger an absolutely devastating retaliation from Russia. Besides, even though their liveries look similar, the Il-96-300PU is a four engine aircraft whereas the Boeing 777 has two engines. See for yourself:
 |
| President Putin’s Il-96-300PU |
 |
| Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777-200ER |
Liveries don’t make much of a difference on radar anyway, but engines are a very strong radar signal reflector.
A far more likely hypothesis would be that the Ukies wanted to shoot down just any Russian civilian airliner not necessarily Putin’s. Shooting down a Russian airliner would be consistent with the pattern of systematic provocation which the junta has been engaged in since months already and which included the kidnapping and beating up of Russian journalists, the assault of the Russian embassy in Kiev, the regular artillery strikes across the border and even one instance of a Ukie Air Force Su-25 straying into Russian air space. It so happens that Russia does operate a number of Boeing 777-300ER every similar to the Malaysian one.
 |
|||
| Aeroflot Boeing 777-300ER |
I am personally inclined to think that this was no error and that the Ukies knew exactly what aircraft they were shooting down. But if we assume a case of mistaken identity, then I say that their real target was not Putin’s presidential l-96-300PU which, according to the FSO has not overflown the Ukraine in a very long time anyway, but a Russian civilian airliner like the Aeroflot Boeing shown above.
There is also the very real possibility that MH17 was not shot by a BukM1 at all, but by a Ukrainian SU-27, at least this is what the pattern of damage on the debris seems to be showing. Of course, we will have to wait to see if this information is correct. The Russian military has declared that Russian signal intelligence had detected the radar associated with a BukM1 operating in the “track” mode right at the time when the Malaysian Boeing was hit. Is that compatible with the notion of a Ukie interceptor shooting down MH17? Yes, absolutely, in fact, it would have to be part of the plan. Think of it – the Resistance has no fighters or interceptors, only one single Su-25 close air support aircraft. But it does seem to have at least some BukM1s (though whether they are operational or not is unknown). If the Ukies did use a Su-27 to shoot down MH17 it would make sense for them to switch on the engagement radar of the BukM1 just to be able to point the finger to a BukM1 battery as the source of the attack.
Right now I have the feeling that the Russians are hoping for the international community and the various investigating teams to come to the correct conclusions without any Russian input. I am not at all sure that this is the right approach, but then I have been frustrated to tears with the Kremlin’s communication policy for a long time already. Just listen to Putin’s latest statement about MH17:
I don’t know about you, but to me Putin looks nervous and even sick. Does he not act as if he was guilty or afraid of being caught? I know, I know, there is zero chance of Russia being guilty of this crime, but to many, especially in the West, appearances matter more than facts and this latest appearance is, in my opinion, a total disaster.
I always “marvel” at how incompetent Russians are in public communications and how they systematically fail to appreciate how important appearances can be. In contrast, the USA, which Chris Hedges correctly calls the Empire of Illusion, has a superb appreciation for the importance of the superficial and uses it against its enemies with devastating effectiveness.
In conclusion of these musings, I will like to repeat here: the tragedy of MH17 is being used by the Kiev junta not only to conceal its recent defeats, but to also conceal the murderous attacks against civilians all across the frontlines. Right now, as the world discusses the fate of MH17 the Ukies have open fire with barrages of heavy artillery on Luganks and Donetsk and in every town and village and they are murdering scores of civilians in an apparent retaliation for their recent setbacks. This is the big story, not MH17. This is why I want to suggest to you all that we wait until some hard facts come out about what really happened, and that we refrain from discussions ad nauseam of every hypothesis or rumor. Since what I posted above is exactly that, then let’s keep the topic of MH17 to the comments section below and let us keep the other posts MH17-free at least until we have some hard facts to discuss, okay?
I wish you all a great week, kind regards,
The Saker
Guru, do you have links for these photos which you say show kinetic (as oppose to explosive) damage?
The presentation by the Russian military in Russian and English is at:
http://www.vesti.ru/only_video.html?vid=610598
Saker,
He does not look like he is ill.
He does look like he has not slept well. Hence, the black circles under eyes.
After a certain age, when we don’t take the needed hours of sleep the dark eyes happens to all of us. Nothing to do with nerves.
Saker, I SEE him as he is. Don’t let fear (or “fever”) cloud your view. VV has everything he needs to demonstrate moral authority.
My previous comment disappeared in a rabbit hole?
Well there is the Robert Parry post at Consortiumnews.com http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/
What did US spy Satellites See?
What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.
Then how about the dubious Carlos’ tweets
now supported:-posted at Zerohedge with details:
Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1
and immediately followed by the messiah desperate attempt.
Anon Mongoose
The US State Dept statement posted on the Kiev embassy site (linked in previous comments) is really an amazing piece using social media postings as ‘proof’ of their conjectures. The other analysis linked in that post comparing the Syrian ‘chemical weapons attack’ is right on – facts didn’t fit the narrative so get out early and often trying to frame the debate with your own version. Intelligence community may not be on board with this.
Obama not backing down – still blaming Russia.
My previous comment disappeared in a rabbit hole?
Well there is the Robert Parry post at Consortiumnews.com http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/
What did US spy Satellites See?
What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.
Then how about the dubious Carlos’ tweets
now supported:-posted at Zerohedge with details:
Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1
and immediately followed by the messiah desperate attempt.
Anon Mongoose
It’s his eyes: there are circles under them, and especially, he doesn’t look right into the camera, so that gives off an air of tiredness.
VladTheFluffy says:
Dear Saker
Some facts that are known are that the Malaysian authorities said that the plane was instructed by the UkoNazi authorities to fly lower than normal (down to 30k feet as against the normal 35 – 37k for a normal intercontinental passenger flight. Interesting to compare that to the maximum effective range of a BUK). We have statements from Russia that the UkoNazi military were actively tracking the flight. We also have stories that two UkoNazi SU27’s were “escorting” the flight (very normal, I’m sure this happens with every flight over Ukraine … ). What we don’t have is any answer as to why.
As you’ve said, we have few real facts to go on. However the Cui Bono and MMO (means, motives and opportunity) tests paint a picture clear enough to start arresting people, if there was any law.
Btw…Putin has always had a yellowish tone to his face .
He seems to me, to be containing his anger and again, I repeat, I don’t see him as “ill” nor “nervous”.
On the contrary, he seems to me, as determined, as he has always been.
We must continue to pray for him. Don’t forget. Take a few minutes and pray for him.
A number of comments have mentioned that Putin has the air of a man on the cusp of a major decision. That much I agree.
The nature of that decision is given detailed attention in two articles already mentioned on either this or the earlier ‘A few questions’ thread.
1. Putin, it’s your payback time by M K Bhadrakumar. I my view this accurately identifies deep divisions inside the Kremlin itself, which so clearly constrain Putin’s freedom of action. The CIA-ZOGs will have gamed those divisions to destruction and will be harnessing them to their own agenda in a ruthless and single-minded fashion.
2. What Strelkov is “sad” about on the English language Colonel Cassad site. That identifies some key players who, on any reasonable definition of current Russian national interest, are frankly traitors and have to be dealt with accordingly if Putin’s and Russia are to avoid a humiliating defeat. The most important/influential of them are Vladislav Surkov, and Sergei Kurginyan, together with Ukrainian Oligarch Rinat Ahkmetov.
Putin’s big BIG problem is that, even at this late stage, he still appears to harbour illusions of some kind of reasonable accommodation with the West. He reminds me of Don Corleone (“When did I ever refuse an accommodation”) in his dealings with the heads of the Five Families over Sollozzo’s drugs proposition – his reward, multiple attempts on his life. He wants to be treated as an equal, but he is whistling in the wind because that will NEVER happen. Looks like he is approaching fateful decisions consequent on that realisation.
The other big problem is that the CIA-ZOG’s KNOW he is approaching it and are all lined up ready and waiting – and Putin knows that too. God help us all.
“I don’t know about you, but to me Putin looks nervous and even sick. Does he not act as if he was guilty or afraid of being caught? “
No – like others have already said, he doesn’t look nervous or sick, and most certainly he doesn’t look guilty or afraid of being caught. Caught for what?
I believe he feels sickened by this senseless murder, and he feels betrayed because he just came back from Brazil with the founding of the competition for the IMF by the BRICS – a huge triumph destroyed by those who downed the MH17 plane, and by the willing helpers in the West, politicians and media alike.
He looks burdened by the decision he will have to take, but don’t forget that so far, he has bent over backwards to counter the west’s malice.
Who would want to be in his shoes, having to decide about war and peace, perhaps kicking off WWIII?
Don’t forget that it’s only a few days to the 100-year anniversary of the start to WWI, when the guns started to speak, and when someone said ‘The lamps are going out all over Europe, we shall not see them lit again in our lifetime’. So don’t expect Putin to look and sound like a media performer.
@Anonymous 13:57.
You said:
“I saw another video of Putin and he looked extremely guilty.. his eyes were down, shifting from side to side, and blinking over and over again”.
Then give us the link. Because to be clearly and perfectly blunt–I DON’T trust nor believe you.
Don’t worry about how he looks. The Russian government is going to put one-page explanations of how this whole Ukrainian freak show is an American plot in newspapers all around the world. And they are going to hire PR firms all over, and get their practically unlimited NGOs to work on this full-time. They are probably recruiting half of the people on this site now, as they would work so tirelessly and cheaply to try to prevent WWIII.
So relax.
I have to concure with Nora, he doesn’t look ill or nervous at all. He is terminaly pissed. Total end of patience here.
It’s so hard to keep any perspective in the midst of all these horrors. sigh. But if you really just grit your teeth and look at it all, the Donbass is just one battlefield in a much, much larger war. And in the grand scheme of things, not only has Russia won many bigger battles in both the political and economic arenas but actually, if you really think about, in terms of marketing! Just not by creating a false image, but by presenting the real thing: genuine cooperation and adherence to International Law. Meanwhile our image is in tatters — the Emperor is getting more and more nekkid every darned minute.
This whole thing will spin out based on how much genuine fear the European leaders still have for us vs. both the profit motive of their oligarchs and any real ability their pols may have to outmaneuver us behind the scenes. This revolution won’t be televised, of course; it’ll just emerge. And the only real wild card — with the accent on wild — is how crazy various Zionist nutcakes of the both Jewish and Christian varieties will get. I don’t think there’s a bottom to that pit but I think we’re about to find out.
Black box/es should be handed by Putin to Merkel,very publically.with the express condition that the full findings are presented to the world,and that USA/Ukies do NOT get their blooded hands on them at any stage.
Merkel is not going to kiss ass any longer after the surveillance business became known.
XbNB.
It takes two for tango.. If the perceiver is well aware of the game, does it matter how much lipstick the swine has on it’s snout?
OK no more hypothetical discussion except to say this: IF there is a need for Russia to intervene directly, now the ground is even more difficult because the international community has been lead to believe that Russia is to blame and thus bad and thus “needs to be stopped” whatever that means. So where does that leave Donbass? Russia has been outmaneuvered on this for now. Live and learn and prepare better for the next round. This was just round #1. Putin needs to stop pleading with Poroshenko to talk to the rebels first of all. He needs to tell the West that every escalation into Donbass that they make will be met with equal help from Russia–that mass shelling of civilians will not be tolerated. Know the nature of the enemy, gather good intelligence–battles throughout history have been won or lost on this. Have Lavrov speak. He has a warrior side that will be respected. Deep regrets on the mysterious loss of the plane: at best an accident in the fog of a war zone and at worst a deliberate plot by Poroshenko et al. etc.etc Remember the Maine? USA got all Latin America (Cuba in particular) and the Philippines with that and to this day no one knows whether it was an accident or deliberate.
Desculpe descordar.
Não parece que Putin esteja doente ou abatido, mas tem um semblante que demonstra desgosto com
tantas vítimas inocentes.
Sei que não é o estilo de Putin, mas gostaria muito vê-lo com o dedo apontado para Obama e fazendo
cobranças e alertando das consequências graves dos acontecimentos. Se Putin não quer fazer um
discurso com um tom elevado, pelo menos usasse um assessor com as características necessária para
fazer um pronunciamento oficial.
Putin tem passado uma imagem de ser muito racional, um cristão devoto. Isto trás um segurança muito grande às potências imperialistas. Penso que Putin está passando a imagem errada. Tenho plena certeza que o ocidente
agradece muito por Vladimir Jirinovski NÃO SER O PRESIDENTE DA RÚSSIA. Vladimir Jirinovski faz declarações contundentes e tem uma maneira de ser que intimida. O império e seus capangas tem que ficar assustados.
Não me esqueço de um pronunciamento onde Putin dizia que os EUA pareciam um lobo devorador. E isto não mudou, eles continuam como um lobo devorador em busca de oportunidades para devorar a vítima. Na Europa, o verdadeiro
alvo é a Rússia e na Ásia é a China. Se as oportunidades não aparecer, os EUA vão cria-las de qualquer forma.
Muitos tem falado que uma atitude mais POSITIVA da Rússia pode despertar um aumento dos gastos da OTAN
e um engajamento maior dos seu membros. Mas a OTAN está ai é pra isto mesmo. Os europeus nunca a desfizeram
e nem vai se desfazer da OTAN.
Neste momento as sanções estão aumentando lentamente e vão continuar aumentando até que vejam a Rússia
totalmente enfraquecida pelas sanções econômicas. A Rússia está sendo cozinhada em fogo brando que é pra
não perceber até que aconteça a chance de um golpe fatal para a Federação Russa.
A Rússia juntamente com os outros BRICS entraram num caminho sem volta. Não tem mais recuo! Alguém pode ter
dúvidas que a Rússia é considerada o principal inimigo dos EUA????
Agora fica aqui algumas questões que não consigo entender:
1-Porque a Rússia não aceitou as caixas prestas do vôo MH17 e desmascara tudo? Ou a Rússia realmente tem culpa??
2-Porque não mostra o que a vigilância de radar tem?? Sei que tem muitos segredos de equipamentos que não podem ser mostrado, mas deve existir algo que pode e deve ser feito.
3-A Rússia sabe que o alvo não é somente a Nova Rússia? Sabe que a Crimeia vem logo a seguir???
Os EUA não digeriu a tomada da Crimeia. Mesmo que a Ucrânia se transforme numa Somália, em que isto ajudaria a Rússia?
O plano principal deveria ser o fortalecimento da Nova Rússia para que eles mesmo pudesse partir para tomar a parte ocidental. Não seria interessante existir algo como Coréia do Norte / Coréia dos Sul na fronteira da Rússia, pois certamente será isto que aconteceria se a Ucrânia se dividir.
All my respects to President Putin in those dreadfull days!
Such a burden upon him…
I pray for him, I pray for Russia…
Slava Russia!
Time for a no fly zone guaranteed by Russia over SE Ukraine to put an end to future incidences of incompetence by Kiev air controllers and to preserve the reputation of Russia and the lives of international air passengers. And to stop the mass shelling and bombing of civilians from the air which is a war crime.
Do not let the US lie machine punk you, Putin.
Putin seems to be seriously annoyed and exasperated but still under control.
He must have a d=great deal of self-discipline.
To me Putin doesn’t look nervous or sick, but incredibly angry. He is almost spitting out the words, trying to keep calm and measured. Trust me, this is rage, pure and simple, but controlled.
Bloody hell, that’s one angry man.
He made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
I have never met the guy. I will never meet him but what I have seen of him at long distance shows a man with great control, a man who prides himself on his restraint.
There’s a reason he was not seated today. He COULDN’T sit today.
He is under control and will remain so but somebody is going to pay the price for putting him that position.
What we have seen this afternoon is a public demonstration of private communications and sharing.
Today the second most powerful man in the world put the first most powerful man in the world on notice that there’s a dojo, a mat and a fall awaiting. The first most powerful man in the world may not be all he thinks he is.
I watched Obama’s reply to the revelations about the Ukrainian lies and was watching a completely different man. HE looked embarrassed because he knows that the public disclosures made are for him. Obama and his government have a short time to return the easy ob that Mr Putin gave him before the Russians finish off the job.
Obama has a few hours to save face, the Russians, Mr Putin recognised that enabling that saving of face is essential for the security of the world. I think he would like nothing more than to rip ‘somebody’s’ heart out through his throat for what he has allowed to happen.
There are times when restraint is the only way to proceed, no matter how much we might want something else.
Sorry, forgot to do the translation in the previous post.
============
Sorry to disagree.
It does not seem that Putin is sick or shot, but has a face that shows disgust with
so many innocent victims.
I know it’s not the style of Putin, but would love to see him with finger pointing at Obama and making
charges and warning of the serious consequences of events. If Putin does not want to make a
speech with a high tone, at least wear an assessor with the necessary characteristics to
make an official pronouncement.
Putin has spent an image of being very rational, a devout Christian. This brings up a very great security to the imperialist powers. I think Putin is going the wrong image. I am quite sure that the West
Thank you so much for Vladimir Zhirinovsky NOT BE PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA. Vladimir Zhirinovsky makes scathing statements and has a way of being intimidating. The empire and his henchmen have to be scared.
Do not forget a statement where Putin said the U.S. seemed a ravening wolf. And that has not changed, they still like a devouring wolf in search of opportunities to devour the victim. In Europe, the real
target is Russia and Asia is China. If opportunities do not appear, the U.S. will create them anyway.
Many have spoken to a more POSITIVE attitude of Russia could attract increased spending NATO
and greater engagement of its members. But NATO is there is for this very reason. Europeans never undid
nor will undo NATO.
At this time the sanctions are slowly increasing and will continue to increase until they see Russia
totally weakened by economic sanctions. Russia is being cooked in simmering it’s for
not realize until it happens the chance of a fatal blow to the Russian Federation.
Russia along with other BRICS entered a path of no return. No more retreat! Someone may have
doubts that Russia is considered the main enemy of the U.S.??
Now here is some issues that can not understand:
1-Because Russia has not accepted suck boxes Flight MH17 and debunks all? Or Russia really is to blame?
2-Why not show what the surveillance radar has? I know you have many secrets of equipment that can not be shown, but there must be something that can and should be done.
3-Russia knows that the target is not only the New Russia? Know the Crimea comes on the heels??
The U.S. did not digest the taking of Crimea. Even that Ukraine will become a Somalia, which would help Russia?
The master plan should be the strengthening of the New Russia so they could even take off for the western part. Would not it be such thing as North Korea / South Korea from the border of Russia, for surely this is what would happen if Ukraine split.
Sorry, forgot to do the translation in the previous post.
============
Sorry to disagree.
It does not seem that Putin is sick or shot, but has a face that shows disgust with
so many innocent victims.
I know it’s not the style of Putin, but would love to see him with finger pointing at Obama and making
charges and warning of the serious consequences of events. If Putin does not want to make a
speech with a high tone, at least wear an assessor with the necessary characteristics to
make an official pronouncement.
Putin has spent an image of being very rational, a devout Christian. This brings up a very great security to the imperialist powers. I think Putin is going the wrong image. I am quite sure that the West
Thank you so much for Vladimir Zhirinovsky NOT BE PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA. Vladimir Zhirinovsky makes scathing statements and has a way of being intimidating. The empire and his henchmen have to be scared.
Do not forget a statement where Putin said the U.S. seemed a ravening wolf. And that has not changed, they still like a devouring wolf in search of opportunities to devour the victim. In Europe, the real
target is Russia and Asia is China. If opportunities do not appear, the U.S. will create them anyway.
Many have spoken to a more POSITIVE attitude of Russia could attract increased spending NATO
and greater engagement of its members. But NATO is there is for this very reason. Europeans never undid
nor will undo NATO.
At this time the sanctions are slowly increasing and will continue to increase until they see Russia
totally weakened by economic sanctions. Russia is being cooked in simmering it’s for
not realize until it happens the chance of a fatal blow to the Russian Federation.
Russia along with other BRICS entered a path of no return. No more retreat! Someone may have
doubts that Russia is considered the main enemy of the U.S.??
Now here is some issues that can not understand:
1-Because Russia has not accepted suck boxes Flight MH17 and debunks all? Or Russia really is to blame?
2-Why not show what the surveillance radar has? I know you have many secrets of equipment that can not be shown, but there must be something that can and should be done.
3-Russia knows that the target is not only the New Russia? Know the Crimea comes on the heels??
The U.S. did not digest the taking of Crimea. Even that Ukraine will become a Somalia, which would help Russia?
The master plan should be the strengthening of the New Russia so they could even take off for the western part. Would not it be such thing as North Korea / South Korea from the border of Russia, for surely this is what would happen if Ukraine split.
LOL, gallier mon ami
glad I wasn’t alone in thinking he doesn’t look nervous or ill
I thought, rather then pissed, he looked annoyed.
E said…
“I always “marvel” at how incompetent Russians are in public communications and how they systematically fail to appreciate how important appearances can be. In contrast, the USA, which Chris Hedges correctly calls the Empire of Illusion, has a superb appreciation for the importance of the superficial and uses it against its enemies with devastating effectiveness.”
I find that this is true of individual Russians and Americans in general. Russian immigrants here to the West, especially when they first arrive, fail to realize how important appearances are and focus on substance instead, not understanding that in most cases their bosses at work need precisely appearance and not substance. And even once they begin to understand it, many have difficulty adapting.
….You are a a stereotyping moron. Leave immediately and go visit Moscow. You are still living in the 80s, apparently, and this is your shortcoming not the Russians. Idiot.
i agree completely with juliania and the pug–
putin only looks tired not in the least scared.
there is also the possibility that he was sick. even he can get sick, can’t he. he has circle under his eyes. but, yes, as the pug said, he seems completely in control.
anon/at
” I always “marvel” at how incompetent Russians are in public communications and how they systematically fail to appreciate how important appearances can be. In contrast, the USA, which Chris Hedges correctly calls the Empire of Illusion, has a superb appreciation for the importance of the superficial and uses it against its enemies with devastating effectiveness.”
I suggest three points :
1. Any evaluation needs to consider the audience.
2. Any evaluation needs to consider purpose.
3. Any evaluation of effectiveness needs a large dataset and rigorous methods to minimise mental mapping.
In the light of these considerations perhaps your opinions are misguided?
France 24 had a video report on Friday morning showing a section of the nose about a metre and a half across. It was from below the cockpit window. It was peppered with holes (ie Kinetic). The location was a village some distance from the main crash. I think the BBC showed it as well.
Fwd from Canuckistan:
It seems as if the narrative is slowly unraveling. In between the anti-Putin rhetoric the MSM has confirmed that there are pro-Ukie militia, that are uncontrollable, operating in the areas surrounding the “crash” site. The short and sandwiched report was that the rail station and Donesk were being attacked by pro-Ukie militia. The Ukie fighter escort has also been “confirmed” to a certain degree. The very, very, very short detail revealed was that there was Ukie aircraft tailing MH17 approx 3-6 km behind. This is significant in the way that the “world” understands km’s but the US audience only understands “miles” for the most part. This little nugget makes a big difference in perception and allows the Ukie spin to add a lot of distance.
In addition, the Harper Regime has subtly changed the story by redirecting the narrative back towards the “rebel separatists” being backed by RF providing “moral and financial support” angle and away from the plane disaster itself.
The situation that was being presented all weekend has begun to unravel and needs go be respun badly.
As this is typed they are now reporting select bits of both Putin and Obama press conferences. Not sure at this point but is “feels” like there seems to be an invitation for RF forces to do something to contain the situation.
We need to also appreciate the unreported position and power of China. Nothing really “important” in the video below but there are a few tidbits for a broader perspective in the description…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7JA7PXXCJo
(hopefully the above makes some sense but plz appreciate this updates is not via a traditional pc/keyboard with a limited screen view that makes it difficult to proof read and edit accordingly)
You said earlier that you were sure that Americans knew about the Ukie operation. I believe they may have been directly involved. Hint: MH17 had no US citizens aboard. How likely is that on an intercontinental flight? It may be that MH17 was chosen precisely because of this. I do not think the Patriot Act and whatever secret legislation and orders came after it give the CIA authority to murder American citizens, at least not without prior presidential approval.
Agreed Dusty, 100%
The US has been told that Russia knows the facts of the matter – or at least all the pertinent ones required before forensics are completed.
We will see now if the rabid dogs are still determined to win at any/all costs.
It has been in the news that Russia is preparing to launch an early warning satellite very soon to replace the old and crippled set now in space and are relying on ground RADAR to provide this service for areas where the space network is deficient. There have been many strategic exercises on both sides over the past few months.
I always “marvel” at how incompetent Russians are in public communications and how they systematically fail to appreciate how important appearances can be. In contrast, the USA, which Chris Hedges correctly calls the Empire of Illusion, has a superb appreciation for the importance of the superficial and uses it against its enemies with devastating effectiveness.
It suits western public well. We like fluff on Tv as our IQ is dropping fast.
I just don’t want Russia to but all trust on Western “Experts”. They lie, they’ve always lied. They cover up.
Official Russian Defence Ministry Analysis 30min
Malaysian Airlines plane crash: Russian military unveil data on MH17 incident over Ukraine (FULL)
He looks like a man who has understandably been under a lot of stress.
He more than most realizes the game plan and what the stakes really are for the world and Russia.
Dublinmick
About this appearance on camera, two things were noticeable for me having worked in TV.
1. His face is shiny especially on both sides of the nose. This is common under TV lighting, which is why everyone gets makeup applied before they go on-air. It is just reflective hot spots, can look like sweat. When guests show up to be interviewed and get a quick make-up application or even skip it, they usually look like hell. Whereas the host will be all done up.
2. He is looking off-camera. There probably were two cameras side by side and he was looking into the other one, to his right, our left. They should have aired that camera and not the one we get to see, unless there was a problem with that footage. When on-air people look into the camera lens or even just below the lens, it has the effect of looking the audience in the eye, much more powerful.
These two simple points, lighting without make-up and using wrong camera angle, change the audience’s perception. I think if he was looking into camera lens without shiny face, you would have had a different impression.
My 2 cents.
The Ukies need a good lawyer pronto. The advice would be say nothing as anything else makes things worse.
For example, they now admit two military fighters were following MH17.
Did two planes follow every flight or just this one? Were the fighters following the path of MH17 or did they direct it along that path? Why didn’t they make use of their radar systems and counter-measures to protect the airliner? Why did they cease trailing MH17 shortly before it was hit? Did they notice the airliner disappearing from their radar? If so, what did they do about it?
Oddly, Malaysia is one of the few countries who refuse to acknowledge the state of Israel & boycott their products.
Just a thought.
To me, Putin does not look nervous, sick or guilty. I see a very controlled anger. And probably disgust at his realization of how evil the Americans are in glibly causing the deaths of hundreds of people to advance their hegemonic agenda. I think Putin has decided to take the gloves off. The Russian bear has been provoked too far this time.
Putin is seriously pissed. There are none of his normal mid sentence pauses, no spurious phrases. Everything is crisp, short and sharp.
I suspect he has just seen the data from the Russian military, and gone on camera without pausing for makeup if he ever uses it. The data he has just seen showed clearly that, in all probability, the Ukrainians deliberately shot down a defenseless civilian aircraft full of people in no way connected to Russia or Ukraine, knowing the passengers would be killed. This was false-flag attack was done deliberately to pass the blame onto Russia.
Man, if I was in his position, I doubt if I could keep my presence under those circumstances.
False Flag Gone Wrong? Suppose the ZioNazi’s had a plan to down MH17- part of plan was to use fighter planes to get MH17 to change it’s flight path without using radios, the plan to set up MH17 was to shoot a buk missile so the blame goes to Russia ‘however the missile hits one of the 2 fighters instead {pilot parachute is seen by witnesses} this requires the other fighter to shoot an air to air missile downing MH17explaining the marks on the remains of the MH17 that resmble air to air missile damage and maybe bullet holes. This possibility highlights the incompetence of the ZioNazi to complete thier evil dispicable plot.
@ Petri Krohn
There was one American on board who had two nationality. One was Dutch the other was American.
They could have overlooked that therefore.
RE: junta defeats.
Saker, you’re delusional. Read the rebel sources, after the airplane disaster, the Ukrainians have the momentum and are advancing rapidly even according to the rebels themselves.
Did two planes follow every flight or just this one?
If they had followed other flights, daytime too, sure as eggs someone who would have taken photos ….
Le Dahu
Putin sick?
“Be this the whetstone of your sword. Let grief
Convert to anger. Blunt not the heart, enrage it.”
I see very.very angry Putin,not afraid,nervous or sick bat very very angry, finally.
Well, Ukies have just confessed!
Now, what about kicking some asses (I agree with most here, that Putin looks just filled up, amin!) under the aegis of the Kazan Icon of the Most Holy Theotokos? It is high time and it is the only language that those cockroaches understand!
“Well, Ukies have just confessed!”
Maedhros – where did you see this?
@Maedhros,
Ukies confessed?
Link please. Where did you see/ hear this?
Thank you.
OK, Nora
Thanks a lot—I am trying your suggestion now.
Russian revelations “countered” in euro-msm by Obama’s bla-bla and quickly digested. Instead of coffee, various additions like “the rebels didn’t allow collecting the bodies” and “Europe finally to take stronger action against Putin”.
UK news worse than US ones. In France a poll on Figaro AFTER revelations shows more than 60% convinced that Putin is liable. Italian and German news similar. Meanwhile Ukri forces press on devastating Donbass capitals.
Let’s face reality: information war is lost. The empire controls all msm worldwide; if Putin could produce a film of the Ukris who shoot down the plane, everybody would say it’s a fabrication. Every fart from Washington is taken as the Gospel.
The only way out is rushing forward: increase help to the Militia, menace intervention, retaliate heavily when the Nazis shoot over the border. Scare them, show that you mean business. All Putin’s self restraint has won him the respect of BRICS leaders, but won’t let him win neither war, the information one and the one on the field.
Rockerduck
Looks like NAF have handed over the “black boxes” to the Malaysian reps.
picture here:
https://twitter.com/jerryliet/status/491345718221606913/photo/1
Someone was looking for a passenger manifest for MH17.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/interactive/2014/07/19/malaysia-airlines-mh17-passenger-manifest/
They have admitted there were their fighter jets on the tail of the Boeing.
It’s like saying you were chasing the victim with a gun, to protect her against an aggression which could not occur (lack of BUK and expertise on the other side) and could not be neutralized if occurred (even if the other side had BUK and expertise, there wasn’t a damn thing anyway those fighters could do).
Case closed!
Well, when Malaysian plane event occurred, just as V.V. Putin was returning from his marathon tour in South America, I thought that if they could not finish him otherwise, in the end, they will kill of exhaustion. Not only a transatlantic voyage, with thousand of miles to visit countries far from each other, but meet receptions, dinners. And after all that, get home and this … not one minute of rest or adaptation schedule. He should be made of iron for not to notice fatigue, to which must be added that this human being, conscious, who has feelings like anyone, feels not only the death of nearly 300 people because of a conflict initiated by others and that he and his government colleagues have worked so hard to avoid, but over try to charge him with guilt.
Simply one person has a limit, even Putin, not only to me does not seem to be a disaster to note some human weakness, but I confirmed my impressions that is a decent person.
The only people who always presents the same face are thouse carrying a mask, the “mask of sanity”.
Anybody feels unwell after the plane tragedy.
History is dead, Marx is dead, is dead democracy, truth and justice have died, and I find myself really bad.
I feel sorry for Vladimir. he looked so happy and relaxed after the meeting with BRICS and his successful tour in South America ….. I think he did not receive so much affection and acceptance for ages.
Psychopaths love to create unrest and spoil the party. Actually, for them any hint of joy is a military target to destroy.
Take care,Saker, V.V.Putin, and people fighting and suffering in Donbass and Gaza. God bless you all. A big hug.
4th June, 2007.
President putin is wrong when he says that russia should or will target the missile on europe if america goes with anti missile defence plan in Europe.in fact it was not America but england which asked for ABM againstt Russia. BBc spy journalists were harassing presidential candidate Gore not to go ahead with Florida recount on ground” ally like britian want to conclude AMB deployment in Yorkshire as soon as possible so there should be no delay in govt. formation.in other word accept fraudulent win of bush for sake of england ! “
Russia must target (rather than should) the nuclear missiles with multiple war heads against all the cities, towns and big villages( including military instalations) of england because this cold war -like the one before- is being started by england for the benefit of english race only-.it is race war between the english parasite race versus the rest of the world-the sooner the rest of the world realizes that better it is for the world.
look how germany wes villified soon after fall of soviet union-look how russia is being vilified immediately after Putin made russia strong.
it is very important to realize and understand the trickery of the english race in manipulating usa to wage wars on behalf of britain which gains most from iraq war and anywar that usa imposes on the third world and even on europe.
Yes, president Putin seems to be – understandably – quite pissed off.
I think, however, the next step to be expected is not military action. For a simple reason: Looking at both Russia and Novorossija there is major problem, namely the 5th colonne and traitors.
In Russia medvedev is to be blamed with bringing lots of doubtful and illoyal “reset” pro weztern people into influential positions and some of those figures are also ruining and fractioning things in Novorossija, for instance by very dirty wheelings and dealing with akhmetov and even the kiev rats.
No doubt, Russia has the strength and the power, incl. the military power, to swiftly change the situation in ukrainia and to show the eu-marionettes their proper place; they are used to obeying anyway.
And Russia has a brilliant, integer, and experienced leader.
Before the Russian bear can do the final step of standing up and using its power to shape things in a healthy and good way, however, Russia must get rid of the traitors and deviants in its fur.
Supporting the people in Novorossija with weapons, intelligence, guidance, and a clear and loyal attitude is important, no doubts. Even more important, however, is to clean Russias own house.
Gladly those two tasks can be combined in a fertile way. Simply listen and watch closely how those (in government, media, etc.) whose loyalty to Russia isn’t beyond doubt when Russia strongly gears up its support for Novorossija. That will provide all necessary answers to the question of whose head in administration, banking, media, etc. shouldn’t be 6 feet above but rather 6 feet below ground.
Once this has been taken care of Russia not only can take care of the rat infestation in ukrainia but it can also “help” zato to keep its promises by cleaning out zato of all ex-sowjet countries, be it by politely suggesting or be it by Iskander missiles, their fine Mig and Su jets, and, of course, with plenty of Jars and Topol-M in position and ready to launch.
Ceterum censeo usa delendum esse!
@elsi,
great comment. Every word of it.
The only people who always presents the same face are thouse carrying a mask, the “mask of sanity”.
Yes! Well said.
Putin seems exhausted and even a bit depressed. I’m wondering what in the world can put such a strong man in such a worry. Does he know something horrific we ignore ?
ann
I think what Putin said was fantastic.
He looks tired, not sick and I hope he gets better soon.
Putin looks very tired, but that shininess is due to the hot lights they probably have on him. Yep, they should use powder and buy some of the newer lights that are not so hot. But I kind of respect that he is not concerned about makeup on camera or how he looks. We are comparing a real man to the cloned puppets we get from the West.
They probably have the old style lights on Putin, which run very hot and make people shiny. Constant powdering is needed to offset this, and he’s too much of a real man to mess with that. They should buy some of the newer lights that don’t give off so much heat. And he does need some sleep, but with all the pressure on him I’m surprised he sleeps at all.
Just a hint of some of the stuff that could make a good man with the responsibilities of Mr Putin tired:
‘I hope you can look in the mirror you monster’: Dutch father who lost his only child on MH17 pens heart-wrenching open letter blaming Putin
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2700054/I-hope-look-mirror-monster-Dutch-father-lost-child-MH17-pens-heart-wrenching-open-letter-blaming-Putin.html#ixzz38BRigZjz
God Bless us everyone.
Anonymous is becoming reckless:
“Snowden fraud fully detailed in
Russian intel agency report in Putin’s hands”.
This sounds as if Russian Intelligence has reported to President Putin about Edward Snowden.
But no. “Dr Les (Leszek – Leslie) Sachs” wrote it, and submitted it to
“Alexandre Vasilyevich Bortnikov, Director, FSB, Moscow
Mikhail Yefimovich Fradkov, Director, SVR, Moscow
via care of His Excellency Alexandre Alexandrovitch Romanov
Ambassador of the Federation of Russia to the Kingdom of Belgium
Avenue De Fré 66, B-1180, Uccle, Belgium” (my emphasis)
It has nothing to do with Russian Intelligence. If you got a letter delivered by Royal Mail, would you call it a message from the Queen?
Anyway, “This report is published by the Jewish community of Flanders, as part of response to criminal attacks by the US government and its partners, against a Jewish victim living in our territory”. ‘Nuff said.
As ever Vladimir Putin is focussed on fixing the problem rather than the blame. He has probably not slept much in the past few days and is in the middle of a political storm. He does not warn or accuse. He speaks with reason and dignity calling for cooperation to find the truth of this matter and an end to the conflict that caused it. That’s why those of us who are still part of the ‘reality based community’ will continue to admire this man however unfashionable and naive it may seem to support any politician.
Saker:
Putin is attacked, constantly. Almost daily, now.
Although no man is totally innocent, it is hard to be attacked every day of your life.
Psalm for Mr. Putin:
Psalms 22.
Mr. Putin needs to turn this around and reveal everything that the EU/US govt/NGO’s have done to him, which he has not done.
Showing Pierre Omidyar’s 500K donation to the bogus UKR revolt, John McCain in Kiev, Nuland, etc.
He needs to show who the REAL perps are.
Re: I don’t know about you, but to me Putin looks nervous and even sick. Does he not act as if he was guilty or afraid of being caught?
——-
I don’t see that at all. I see a normal man who is very concerned and probably tired. Americans are so used to plastic talking heads and moronic socioopathic politicians grinning like chimpanzees or hypocritically faking this or that emotion, that they can’t even imagine a normal official. Putin is concerned. Isn’t it obvious? The world is possibly on the brink of war. Isn’t that cause for concern? The US is engaging in false flag operations and building missile stations all over the border from the Baltic down. How would you react?
Putin looks “sick” only in the sense of being sick of the childish immaturity of that bully called America, with its myriad lies and false accusations. Otherwise, Putin looks like the honest leader he is, facing grave challenges and responding appropriately to tragedy.
Again, I believe the Twitter feed @spainbuca of Kiev air traffic controller Carlos closes the case of who shot down MH17. The order was given by Ukraine, apparently from the interior ministry. If you haven’t seen it, the transcript of Carlos’s feed is at:
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/full-text-and-translations-of-spainbucas-carlos-twitter-feed/
The Twitter account @spainbuca has since been erased, but it did exist at the time of the shootdown, as I verified a few days ago from the Twitter cache:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:twitter.com/spainbuca … via @wmiddelkoop
Alas, when I looked today, this cache has too been erased. However, I myself checked that the cache was a genuine Twitter feed and did match the transcript of Carlos’s tweets.
As for Kiev’s motive in the shootdown, please pardon my dark imaginings, but it may have such violent rage at the Novorossiyans it came out as a form of Orwellian torture. To wit: “So the Novorossiyans hate civilian deaths? We’ll give them civilian deaths!”
At a moment of uncontrolled anger, by someone as volatile as, say, Timoshenko, such an order can easily be imagined. It wouldn’t have to be rational. Little in Kiev’s behavior is.
Hi Saker, Yes, I remember at the time Vladimir Putin looked like he hadn’t slept for a couple of days, and no doubt he had a lot to deal with.
I think the UKR knew exactly what jet it was targeting. After all, MH17 had studiously flown around the war zone, not through it, for weeks prior to going down. On the 17th it had a kink in its flight path as if it had been redirected into the war zone. Of course no ATC tapes have been released, which is near a Ukraine admission of guilt after Russia’s challenge for evidence.
I’ve done a court room style analysis of the eye witness evidence from the BBC, and the confirmed radar information from Russia, and realised that from that alone, one can see what has happened.
At first eye witness accounts appear to contradict one another and even the radar data. But on closer examination, they can be reconciled, and show us some important details as to what happened.
I posted my analysis on my new blog here:
http://becircumspect.blogspot.co.nz/p/legal-examination-of.html
Simple stuff anyone can verify. Shows it was an air to air attack with air to air missiles. Very likely rules out a BUK altogether. That of makes it a very obvious deliberate action, not an accident.