Though we don’t have all the answers (yet), there is already a great deal of evidence out there about what happened (and did not happen) to MH17. Martin John sent me this very well-made summary of what is known at this time and I hope that you will find this synthesis interesting.
A big thank you to Martin John for this very well-made video!
The Saker
——-
The video claims at 0:45: “The file creation filestamp shows that the
original video was
created on July, 16 […] This file creation timestamp is
fixed when the video is created. It cannot be altered.”
This is wrong. It is easy to alter timestamps. After all they are
just bits.
From my readings this file create date refers to the date on Youtube file upload and that date/timestamp is when it was put on Youtube. Yes it can be altered but not by someone on the outside.
Also, once something hits the internet it leaves a trail in multiple places.
If it were within the power of those who uploaded the file then they’d have changed it.
The file creation in this context might be more accurately referred to as file upload.
The file sharing service from which the spread of the file across the Interwebs started was obviously not under the control of the people who uploaded it.
Conceptually you are correct, practically you are wrong. Indeed the uploaders DID attempt to alter the timestamp by deleting and then reuploading the file. That did not work, perhaps if they had altered the uploaded file they’d have succeeded but they lacked the knowledge to enable their error to be covered up.
Silly isn’t it? For the lack of a small point of information their campaign failed.
Sorry to say it is fatally compromised in the first minute by presenting the SBU YouTube video of alleged communications between the Militia and Russian MI as the key evidence against Kiev. The upload time-stamp issue is NOT definitive and Martin John should have discovered that before presenting it as the clincher. Not to have done so undermines the credibility of the whole thing. See this analysis for details. Mick West has a solid track record with this sort of forensics and cannot be dismissed as a Kiev (or any other) stooge.
All that is not to say that the recordings themselves are genuine either, because I personally think they are indeed cobbled-together forgeries, but I’m afraid that being so adamant about the time-stamps simply destroys the credibility of this presentation.
And, in any event, there is far better and more substantial evidence of US-Kiev guilt in the matter than ridiculous postings on YouTube.
Carlos is another mystery: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdJIVVsw05Y
One doesn’t know what to believe anymore.
(Timestamp of encoding, not quite so easy to alter afterwards. Unless you claim that SBU/whoever had sat their computer to one day late (so 17.july became 16.july).
Dear Saker:
A good video from ZH:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNAPbuwLMHg#t=17
There will be Maidan in St Petersburg – Evgeny Fedorov
This seemed only half way shocking but what didnt occur to me is that Putin didn’t clean away all of the 5th Column. I am not sure if this is the full truth but his points are solid.
What comes to my mind is the recent reshuffling / firings of regional figure heads.
Another point to mention in conjunction with this video is the arrest of Roman Seleznyov in the Maldives by the US who is son to State Duma deputy Valery Seleznyov,
http://rt.com/news/171188-russian-hacker-kidnapped-america/.
Maybe Russia is holding the MH17 card for the upcoming elections?
Interesting for sure and Thanks for posting.
Re: Anonymous 13:04 comment that file creation timestamps can be altered.
It depends since many times the fields are read only.
Even so, the video clip offered as evidence is already been discredited for other reasons. More importantly, it does not change critical physical evidence like the MH17 fuselage, or radar maps.
Also if the Blackboxes recovered from MH17 proved that the Anti Kiev separatists were guilty, it would on the 6 oclock news globally, yesterday. Notice how the western controlled media is silent on this issue. This should tell you something.
Anonymous @13:04
True, but then one wonders why would whoever had access to the file deliberatly tamper with its date raising doubt on the file validity and ultimately the theory it attempts to support.
Then again, the junta has shot itself so many times in the foot that it would be hard to be surprised.
Anonymous 13:04 :
of course timestamp of the file on the filesystemcan be altered to any date.
But once it was uploaded to YOUTUBE, the timestamp of the actual upload is there and user can not alter it.
Only somebody with admin rights on youtube, or youtube employee could possibly change it – but why would somebody do that?
to anonymous 13.04
Lies can last only till they are exposed………………
Maybe it is possible to alter timestamps. But in this case why do it to generate a suspicious time of creation?
Johninmk
Anonymous 13:04
Yes it’s easy to alter timestamps.
However it only makes sense to do that before you upload the original file. If you were to download a copy and then change the timestamp of that copy it would be meaningless because every the original and every other copy of it would have the original time stamp.
So if anyone changed the time stamps it would have to have been the original uploader which was the Ukrainian SBU…
To “Anonymous 13:04”
Yes it is easy to alter timestamps.
However it only makes sense to do that before you upload the original file. If you were to download a copy and then change the timestamp of that copy it would be meaningless because the original and every other copy of it would have the original time stamp.
So if anyone changed the time stamps it would have to have been the original uploader which was the Ukrainian SBU.
To “Anonymous 13:04”
Yes it is easy to alter timestamps.
However it only makes sense to do that before you upload the original file. If you were to download a copy and then change the timestamp of that copy it would be meaningless because the original and every other copy of it would have the original time stamp.
So if anyone changed the time stamps it would have to have been the original uploader which was the Ukrainian SBU.
@Anonymous 15 AUGUST, 2014 13:04
Yes the timestamp can be tampered with but why would it have been altered the “wrong” way?
@13:04
True, digital timestamps can be altered by people with specialized knowledge, but then why would the Ukies backdate the timestamp on their “evidence”? More likely they blundered by overlooking the timestamp.
It wouldn’t be the first time lies were revealed by a digital signature.
Dear Saker,
Sir would it be possible for you to give the links for YouTube videos as well? YouTube is blocked here, so need to copy paste the link in a proxy site.
This is the first time I have commented on your blog, although I have been avid reader for many months. Your efforts are much appreciated, and you are fighting the good fight. I salute you Saker.
From,
An avid reader from Pakistan.
“But once it was uploaded to YOUTUBE, the timestamp of the actual upload is there and user can not alter it.”
There is another possiblity. The internal clock on the computer that where the film clip was produced could have been a day off. Which could mean that the file was indeed created on the 17’th but the timestamp was 16’th.
Sorry, but the timestamp is no defininitive evidence in any scenario. And presenting it as such downgrades the reliability of this video-argument as a whole.
Several pint. Firstly, if YouTube deleted 24 hours from the upload time on their server then the timing of the videos would still have been wrong – just too late not too early.
Secondly the files were not just uploaded to YouTube. I recall seeing the source of the file on a file sharing site and when I have been referring to the timing it was this site I referenced.
Thirdly, I upload videos to YouTube quite often in my business. My location is in the same time zone as Kyiv and I see no error in upload timings – and yes, I checked.
It seems odd that YouTube would leave a bug like one this on their system.
There are many ‘experts’ out there many of whom have a story to sell. I know that I can trust myself and the timepieces in my home to tell the right time.
@hardcore: the point being claimed is that the Ukrainins did nothing with the timestamp. Their recording was, it is claimed, posted to YouTube six hours after the plane was downed rather than before.
So, in this paradigm, there was no alteration.
There’s all sorts of practical issues here, of course. Just how lucky would the SBU have to be to detect this conversation between people nobody ever heard of?
Then there’s the fact that the recording was in fact a cut and paste assemblage of unrelated conversations formed into an audio montage. What resources would need to be in play to turn round a project such as that between the time of discovering the downing and then getting an order from ‘on high’ to create the fake recording? Then the bureaucratic process of getting approval of the output before uploading it to file sharing sites and YouTube.
Less than six hours for ALL that to happen? Don’t make me larf!
“This is wrong. It is easy to alter timestamps. After all they are
just bits. “
Yes it’s easy, if you know how. But why would that Kiev Junta alter the timestamp to implicate themselves? If they had thought of altering the timestamp they would have set it forward, not backward. But they are incompetent. They can’t even moderate a debate in parliament without it ending up in a brawl.
To anonymous 14:48, who said, “Also if the Blackboxes recovered from MH17 proved that the Anti Kiev separatists were guilty, it would on the 6 oclock news globally, yesterday. Notice how the western controlled media is silent on this issue.”
And they aren’t just passively silent. Agreements are being discussed among the US and EU nations to make the black box data classified.
Who looks guilty in that case?
Hello Saker,
I do believe the conclusion, but some of the evidence is not OK.
I heard before that the time stamp can change if you upload a video again or something like that. Forgot how it was, but sounded convincing.
There is one other thing wrong here. The truck driving through Luhansk is indeed driving through Luhansk. The company that pays the publicity board has his adress in Krasnomirsk, but this board is definitely standing in Luhansk. I studied the following info for a few hours and compared it with Google Earth, and I am convinced: http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-155-train-carrying-mh17-bodies-arrives-in-kharkiv-and-black-boxes-handed-over/#3503
It is all about the info that you find on this picture: https://twitter.com/djp3tros/status/491651820188860416/photo/1
It takes time, but I could not find a way to doubt it.
My explanation is that they may have filmed the truck against a blue background, and then projected it in the Luhansk-background. ( And in other places, as this truck was – miraculously- filmed many times that night, if I remember it well.
Unbelievable that this discussion is dominated by time stamp details instead of the need to spread the video link far and wide.
Imagine what happens if the video goes viral. How then can the Dutch Safety Board dare to conclude that MH17 was downed by a BUK missile? Or that the downing was accidental?
The clock is ticking. In 3-4 weeks the Dutch Safety Board expects to release their preliminary report. We have work to do.
Share it with someone you know.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/EpDKuN3cV_o
Re ATC ‘Carlos’ and the unreliability of the ‘radar’ evidence supplied by Russia –
Thanks to Anonymous at 13:57 above for linking to that YouTube video about Carlos the ‘Kiev Air Traffic Controller’, digging through his web history.
Full name Jose Carlos Barrios Sanchez, with girlfriend Mihaela Nehnici from Bucharest, Romania, hence his Twitter handle ‘SpainBuca’, photos of the two of them in the vid.
Strange thing is Carlos is also listed as working for IAG – International Airlines Group (Spanish-British, British Airways & Iberia), with an address in Washington DC, the heart of the beast … (Video title ‘MH-17 Radar Eyewitness SpainBuca Confirmed – But Mystery Deepens’)
—
Re the Russian radar ‘evidence’, Gene Tatum just ran an article on Veterans Today on ‘Radar Spoofing – Spooky Stuff’, pointing out that spoofing radar with fake aeroplane identities, is by now an old trick for the big boys … was used in the Israeli raid on Syria’s nuclear plant a few years ago for example.
Tatum thinks it was not actually a Ukraine fighter, but an Israeli flighter taking off from Azerbaijan, which helped to bring down MH17 and maybe put the cannon fire bullet holes in its cockpit.
But since both Russia & US-Nato can fake the radar ‘evidence’ … and since ‘Carlos’ is connected to Washington DC … what we have are more pieces for the argument that ‘Putin is NWO – fake opposition – secret partner in creating chaos and failed states and destroying Ukraine’ theory.
so what is russia doing about it?
why has russia not evens tarted media blitz agasint england which is sitting on black box with malicious intent?
The German journal “Junge Welt” just published an article reminding their inclined readers of the fate of the Itavia flight 870 which was shot down by a misguided fighter pilot in June 1980 near Ustica / Sicilia over the Mediterranean Sea.
Eight years later, two of the pilots who had participated in the NATO exercise near Ustica during that night were summoned by the perseverant italian coroner Rosario Priore, but died just a day before the hearing when their squadron called Frecce tricolori collided during an air show at the Ramstein Air Base in Germany, killing 70 and leaving 1000 people from the audience with serious injuries.
I hope native speakers among your audience will improve the machine based translation of the concise article by Gerhard Feldbauer:
http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/de-en.en/www.jungewelt.de/2014/08-16/008.php
Lohengrin said 15 August, 2014 19:48
You might be on to something. I have a hard time there is anyone in the Ukraine AF that could pull this off it’s either a hired gun or an F-16
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16_Fighting_Falcon
http://www.gdatp.com/factsheets/a006_f-16.pdf
Thanks for the idea
Time stamp changing read second comment and as someone point out here the first one is always keep.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07VJZGpus4E
I have compiled a massive thread of many other anomalies with the the Ukrainian side of the story. It includes proof of their misrepresentation in regards to their own BuKs, the BBC’s deleted footage, CyberBerkuts hacking of Kolomoiskys assistants Facebook page, the Russian analysis of the audio recording and the fact that they flew any sorties that day ben though they had done so every day for 45 days previous. The Facebook page is the most damning piece of evidence and it hasn’t seen a lot of daylight as of this time. http://my.firedoglake.com/operationmindcrime/
I have compiled a massive thread of many other anomalies with the the Ukrainian side of the story. It includes proof of their misrepresentation in regards to their own BuKs, the BBC’s deleted footage, CyberBerkuts hacking of Kolomoiskys assistants Facebook page, the Russian analysis of the audio recording and the fact that they flew any sorties that day ben though they had done so every day for 45 days previous. The Facebook page is the most damning piece of evidence and it hasn’t seen a lot of daylight as of this time. http://my.firedoglake.com/operationmindcrime/
Lohengrin,
Huh?
What’s Putin got to do with that plane, or what is happening in Ukraine? The AZ Empire dunnit, and that’s all that matters. Really.
Software slaps time stamp to file when you hit the save button. And it means time and date present in the moment on that computer (aka system time), something what can be changed with little effort. Much easier then meddling with metadata.
But what do you expect? A perfect crime to came out of retarded nazi brain? Fingerprints of assholes are all around and visible as fog of media uproar left.
Veterans Today is NOT a reliable source — too often they fall for disinfo. I am not going to accuse them of being ‘controlled opposition’ but the naked anti-Anti-Semitism (not just anti-Zionism or anti-non-Gentile NWO Kingpinism) they promote there undermines their reach and appeal to their alleged intended audience, the American and 5Eyes veteran!
I don’t think the Carlos – DC connection is proven at all, and if Carlos was a fake either for the NWO or the Russians and never worked at Kiev ATC he was a darned clever one, because the man was tweeting out details about Ukie jets being close to MH17 before it went down within MINUTES of the crash. In other words, he came across as very real contradicting the Narrative Kiev and Western MSM were instantly prepped to put out that it was the rebels and ONLY the rebels could’ve done this since Kiev ‘wasn’t flying that day’ (why? too many Sus shot down by NAF SAMs?) and ‘didn’t have any SAMs in range’ (a lie, and proven to be a lie by the Russian MoD).
Carlos by all accounts looks real. The fallacy is in assuming he is a Spanish citizen as he claims. There is definitely some sort of tie to Romania, whether a girlfriend or regular travel there. It is possible as others have pointed out here that Carlos is a Ukrainian national who speaks fluent Spanish, hence the Spanish Embassy claiming to a reporter ‘we’ve never heard of him’, as if that disproves his existence! But that’s typical Western MSM — set out with an agenda to debunk a piece of evidence or claim that hurts the Western MSM/Kiev Narrative, and then entertain no other possibilities to the contrary of said half-arsed ‘debunking’. After all, the Ukie ATC AND the Spanish Embassy couldn’t possibly BOTH be lying, could they?
@American Kulak:Veterans Today is NOT a reliable source
I agree 100%. This is why I never ever quote them.
Thanks,
The Saker
@ 16 August, 2014 00:54 Saker,
I meant to say naked anti-Semitism, not anti-anti-Semitism.
What I mean is that as opposed to criticizing individual Jewish NWO evildoers like Soros or Kholomoisky or Paul Singer they allege Israel or Israeli nationals are behind every single bit of NWO badness going on almost everywhere. It undermines the Veteran’s Today case.
One can agree for example that the Mossad has been active in Ukraine and cultivating their people for years, with not a single pre-junta SBU arrest of a foreign spy, Russian, Israeli, or NATO as Saker has pointed out in over twenty years of Ukrainian independence.
I do think Mossad like the 5Eyes intel services have been cooperating in business-like fashion with the psychopaths of their tribe like Kholomoisky. The worst scummiest elements of the German BND that backed the revived Ustashe movement undoubtedly are also involved, seeing Ukraine as a pro-German partner and anti-Russian bulwark against not only future Russian resurgence but also against ‘Russen verstenders’ within Germany’s business elites. In other words, the old Nazis or children of Nazis back their old Ukrainian Nazi allies and their children and grandchildren, as with the Balkan Wars of the 1990s.
We know there were Israeli national and IDF veterans fighting on the Maidan against the Berkut alongside the Right Sector, though whether these were integral to Right Sector’s street fighting tactics like the Poles and Lithuanian trainers or were simply there to ‘Zio-wash’ Right Sector’s Nazi tendencies is debatable. I would argue the IDF vets were there as much to observe as they were to actually fight Yanukovich’s riot police, who at any rate were thoroughly demoralized and confused by having to stand in their shield lines and passively wait to get burned alive day after day for weeks last winter.
We also know Israel has been supplying avionics for Soviet bloc designed jets like the L-39, MiG-21 and Su-25 for years. Thus when Veterans Today says the Su-25 or other Ukie jet that shot down MH17 may have been Israeli piloted, they may be wrong but they’re not entirely crazy. Israel has in fact been supplying avionics to the Balkan nations small air forces, primarily those of Bulgaria and Romania (I can’t say how I know this without giving away more details about my ID and travel history, suffice to say I know).
Since Ukie air force losses have been severe due to MANPADs and now increasingly networked NAF spotters feeding coordinates to radar-guided SAMs and anti-aircraft guns, it is entirely reasonable and in fact extremely likely the Ukies are flying former Warsaw Pact country supplied air frames, especially the Su-25s that have taken the heaviest losses. There is no doubt in my mind Polish pilots are flying Su-25s for the Ukies, so Romanian and Slovak or South African mercenary pilots are all feasible scenarios. But are there Israeli mercs who fly the Su-25? I doubt it. Which is why I considered Veterans Today’s last big scoop about the Ukie Su-25s operating out of Romanian or Bulgarian air bases with Israeli pilots to be at best half right and at worst 80% wrong, being only correct about the Ukies borrowing ex-Warsaw Pact/’New Europe’ jets and ground crews for their operations.
The Brazilian socialist presidential candidate Eduardo Campos was aircrashed on Wednesday.
Today, Air Force investigators say the black box recording “does not correspond to the flight”, and are trying to find out why. They don’t think the voice recording is “crucial”.
So Brazil is much faster off the blocks, and much more open, than Britain’s finest. And it’s too late for MI6 to substitute an Abba special or a World Cup commentary.
Time is running out for the British investigation. They must hope an Israeli jet was involved, so everyone will forget about it, as they did when Israel shot down Libyan Arab Airlines’ Flight 114 over the Sinai in 1973.
Dear Saker,
I have a question/observation about this video which with your technical knowledge you may be able to answer.
The theory is that the cockpit was targetter and fired upon from both sides of the 777. I believe that it’s quite hard to hold a tight group of shots with a 12.7mm machine gun from 200 metres so how can a fighter hold such a tight grouping with a 30mm cannon when it is flying at 900kmph and to fire on the cockpit, must have been approaching ahead of the angle of the wing – say 9o – 120 degrees to the body of teh aircraft. As tyhe plane suddenly changed direction and speed both sides of teh aircraft must have been fired on simultaneously or damn near to it. This does not seem possible to me – it feels wrong but I would appreciate your take on it as the Su-25 might have some special facility on that cannon that I know nothing about and that can hold such a tight grouping at the speeds involved.
Thanks
Brian
@Brian:I have a question/observation about this video which with your technical knowledge you may be able to answer.
Let me try to answer.
First, I don’t endorse this theory. My own is that MH17 was shot down by a R-60M missile and then “finished off” by cannon fire. Still,
1) The Su-25 was not flying at 900kmph, and while the MH17 probably did, we don’t know what the exact closing speed between the two aircraft was. Could have been less or even more.
2) The Su-25’s cannon has a range of up to 4’000.
3) This canon is very accurate and the targeting system allows you to shoot short, and very accurate, bursts.
4) The MH17 was initially a very steady target going straight. Yes, it was fast and high, but it was not maneuvering.
Still, my own theory is that the first attack was made by a R-60M missile which hit an engine and only then did the SU-25 use it’s cannon to finish off the plane.
HTH, cheers,
The Saker
Hi Saker,
Thanks for the clarification on the Su-25 armament. I tend favour your theory as it keeps it to the one aircraft that Russian radar saw hanging about and also could explain the sudden deviation in course if, for example, an engine were hit by the R-60M. It could also explain why no mayday was sent as the crew, if not already disabled, would have been trying to figure out what the hell happened and would be trying to control the aircraft. Whatever was said would be at the end of the black box recording and easily lost.
@anonymous 15 August, 2014 13:04
“This is wrong. It is easy to alter timestamps. After all they are
just bits.”
CORRECT. But why would Kiev alter the time stamp to make themselves look guilty? (it was Kiev that had possession of this video)
Maybe Time stamps can be altered (maybe) but it makes no sense for Kiev to alter the time stamp to the day before.
CONCLUSION: The plane was shot down with 30 mm canon fire by Kiev as a false flag operation to implicate the other party in this armed conflict (that’s right they are not considered terrorists, they are ‘parties to an armed conflict’)
BTW 3x the number of civilians were killed in Gaza when the world was looking at MH17. Not trying to minimize the terrible crime against humanity, just trying to show that it was a false flag and as all false flags, designed to distract us from the truth.
The timestamp issue is a bug in the youtube conversion process and very precisely explained here
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/debunked-mh17-video-timestamped-before-the-crash-and-other-timeline-issues.3988/
But nevertheless to present something shortly after the accident without publishing the voice recording between flight controller pins still to a false flag.
from Loehngrin:
‘But since both Russia & US-Nato can fake the radar ‘evidence’ … and since ‘Carlos’ is connected to Washington DC … what we have are more pieces for the argument that ‘Putin is NWO – fake opposition – secret partner in creating chaos and failed states and destroying Ukraine’ theory.’
first there is NO NWO…just the OWO. sorry..next Putin as NWO is just the paranoid conspiracy nonsense that floods the internet from….well the NWO mob!
so no pieces of any arguement…and whos to trust someone with a nickname and who knows who they are?!
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/debunked-mh17-video-timestamped-before-the-crash-and-other-timeline-issues.3988/