The Ukraine, As We Know It, Is Gone Forever
by MIKE WHITNEY for Counterpunch
The Saker is an ex-military analyst who was born in Europe to a family of Russian refugees. He now lives in Florida where he writes the Vineyard of the Saker blog and is a regular contributor to Russia Insider. The international community of Saker Blogs includes, besides the original Saker blog, French, German, Russian, Oceania and Serbian members and will soon include a Latin American member. —Mike Whitney
Mike Whitney: Is the United States responsible for the troubles in Ukraine?
The Saker: Yes, absolutely, there’s no doubt about it. While it’s true that the Ukrainian people were unhappy with the corrupt Yanukovich regime, the coup itself was definitely CIA orchestrated. The EU was also involved, especially Germany, but they didn’t play nearly as big a role as the U.S. The taped phone messages of (US Undersecretary of State) Victoria Nuland show who was really calling the shots behind the scenes.
Mike Whitney: What role did the Obama administration play in Kiev’s decision to launch a war on its own people in the east of Ukraine?
The Saker: A central role. You have to understand that there is no “Ukrainian” power in Kiev. Poroshenko is 100% US-run as are the people around him. The head of the notorious Ukrainian secret police (the SBU), Valentin Nalivaichenko, is a known CIA agent. It’s also true that the US refers to Poroshenko “our Ukraine insider”. All of his so called “decisions” are actually made by U.S. officials in Kiev. As for Poroshenko’s speech to Congress a few weeks ago, that was obviously written by an American.
Mike Whitney: The separatists in the East have been very successful in repelling the Ukrainian army and their Neo Nazi counterparts in the security services. What role has Russia played in assisting the Novorussia militias?
The Saker: Russia’s role was critical. While Russian troops were not deployed across the border, Moscow did allow volunteers and weapons to flow in. And while the assistance was not provided directly by the FSB (Russia’s Federal Security Service) or the military, it was provided by various private groups. Clearly, the Kremlin has the power to help-out when it choses to do so. In one instance, there appears to have been direct artillery support from across the Russian border (in the so-called “southern cauldron”), but most of the aid has been covert. Besides the covert assistance, Russia has also provided intelligence, logistical and political support for the Novorussians. Without Russia’s support, the Novorussians never would have been able to turn the tide in the war.
Mike Whitney: Did Putin send Russian troops to Crimea and illegally seize the area or is that a fiction that’s been propagated in the western media?
The Saker: It’s actually a technicality. Yes, Putin did send Russian troops to Crimea, but no, they never exceeded the limits allowed under current agreements between Russia and the Ukraine. Remember that the Black Sea Fleet was already headquartered in Sevastopol, so there were plenty of troops available locally. Also, there was a large group of local volunteers who perform essential operations. Some of these volunteers were so convincing that they were mistaken for Russian Special Forces. But, yes, at the critical moment, Putin did send additional special forces to Crimea.
Was the operation legal? Well, technically it didn’t violate treaty agreements in terms of numbers, but did it violate Ukraine’s sovereignty. The reason Moscow did this was because there was solid evidence that Kiev was planning to move against Crimea. (possibly involving Turkey and Crimean Tatars) If Putin had not taken the initiative, the bloodbath in Crimea could have been worse than it’s been in Novorussia. Also, by the time Putin made the decision to protect Crimea, the democratically-elected President (Yanukovich) had already been removed from office, which created a legal vacuum in Kiev. So the question is: Should Putin have abided by the laws of a country that had been taken over by a gang of armed thugs or should he have tried to keep the peace by doing what he did?
What Putin chose to do was allow the people of Crimea to decide their own future by voting freely in a referendum. Yes, the AngloZionist propaganda says that they were forced to “vote at the barrel of a gun”, but that’s nonsense. Nobody disputes the fact that an overwhelming majority of Crimeans (95%) wanted to leave Ukraine and join Russia. All the “polite armed men in green” did was make it possible for the people to exercise their right of self-determination, something that the junta in Kiev never would have permitted.
Mike Whitney: What influence does Obama have on Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko’s decision-making? Is Washington actually running the show?
The Saker: Yes, totally. Obama gives the orders and Poroshenko obeys.
Just as they do everywhere, the US uses local oligarchs to colonize a country. Take for example Russia between 1991 and 1999. It was run by oligarchs behind a drunken figurehead. (Boris Yeltsin) Everyone knew that Russia had become a American colony and that the US could do whatever it wanted. It’s the same today.
Yanukovich was no more pro-Russian than any other Ukrainian President. He’s just an oligarch who’s been replaced by another oligarch, Poroshenko. The latter is a very intelligent man who knows that his survival depends on his complete obedience to Uncle Sam.
I wouldn’t put it past the US to dump Poroshenko and install someone else if it suits their purposes. (Especially if the Right Sector takes power in Kiev.) For now, Poroshenko is Washington’s man, but that could change in the blink of an eye.
Mike Whitney: How close is the Obama administration to achieving its goal of establishing NATO bases (and, perhaps, missile sites) in Ukraine? What danger does this pose for Moscow?
The Saker: The only place where NATO bases really make sense is in Crimea, and that option is no longer available. But there’s more to this issue than meets the eye, that is, if the US continues to pursue this provocative policy of establishing NATO bases on the Russian border, then Russia will withdraw from the INF Treaty (Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty) and deploy advanced versions of the SS-20 (Soviet Nuclear Ballistic Missile) closer to Europe. The point is, US meddling could lead to a confrontation between nuclear-armed adversaries.
Mike Whitney: The European Commission has created a number of obstacles to prevent Russia from building the Southstream pipeline which will diversify export routes for natural gas from Russia to central and southern Europe. Critics have said that the Obama administration is behind the move, and that powerful US energy giants want to either block or control the flow of energy from Russia to Europe. Is this the broader context of the troubles in Ukraine, that is, are we really seeing an energy war unfold in real time?
The Saker: This is an important part of the equation, but not the central one. The central one is the mistaken belief (put forward by Zbigniew Brzezinski) that without the Ukraine Russia cannot be a superpower, and the equally mistaken belief (put forward by Hillary Clinton) that Putin wants to re-create the Soviet Union. For the AngloZionists, the Ukraine is a zero-sum game in which the US must either control the Ukraine or destroy it, but not allow Russia to have it. The problem with this theory is that Russia doesn’t really want or need the Ukraine. What Russia wants is a stable, dependable and neutral partner with which it can do business. Even now, while the Novorussians are demanding full independence, Russia has been pushing a different plan altogether. Moscow wants a unitary Ukraine in which each region would have de-facto autonomy but still be part of the same state.
Powerbrokers in the West are so maniacally obsessed with controlling the Ukraine, they can’t imagine that Russia doesn’t want the same thing. But Russia doesn’t want the Ukraine. It has no need for a broken, dysfunctional, failed state with massive social problems, that will require billions upon billions of dollars to rebuild.
Sure, there are cultural, historical, religious and even family ties between Russia and the Ukraine, but that does not mean they want to run the place. Russia already got what it wanted, Crimea. As for the rest, Moscow’s attitude is, “You broke it, you own it.”
Mike Whitney: What’s the endgame here? Will Poroshnko succeed in keeping Ukraine together and further isolate Russia from Europe or will Ukraine splinter along political lines? Or is there another scenario that you see as more likely?
The Saker: Crimea is gone forever. So is Novorussia. But in the case of the latter, there might be a transitional phase in which Kiev retains some degree of sovereignty over areas in the east.
In the near term, there could be more fighting, but eventually there will be a deal in which Novorussia will be given something close to independence. One thing is certain, that before reaching an agreement on final status, two issues will have to be settled:
-
There must be regime change in Kiev followed by de-Nazification.
Neither Russia nor Novorussia will ever be safe as long as the Nazis are in power in Kiev. That means that these russophobic, nationalist freaks will have to be removed before final status issues can be resolved. The Russians and the Novorussians are somewhat divided on this issue. While the Novorussians want their independence and say “To hell with the Nazis in Kiev”, the Kremlin wants regime change and sees it crucial for their national security. We’ll have to wait and see how this plays out in the future.
- There will have to be a conference of donors.
The Ukraine is basically dead, it’s been reduced to rubble. It will take years to rebuild, and immense sums of money. The US, EU and Russia will all have to contribute. If the AngloZionists persist in their maximalist position and continue to support the Nazi junta in Kiev, the Russians will not pay a single kopeck. Russian aid will go exclusively to Novorussia.
Sooner or later the US and EU will realize that they need Russia’s help. And when they finally figure that out, they’ll work together to reach a comprehensive political agreement. Right now, they’re more preoccupied with punishing Putin (through economic sanctions and political isolation) to prove that no one can defy the Empire. But that kind of bullying behavior won’t change the reality on the ground. The West needs Russia’s cooperation, but Russia isn’t going to cooperate without strings attached. The US will have to meet certain conditions before Moscow agrees to a deal.
UKRAINE: “Gone forever”
Though it’s too early to tell, I think the Ukraine as we know it, is gone forever. Crimea will remain part of Russia, while Novorussia will become independent and probably end up in some kind of association status with Russia. As for the rest of the Ukraine, there’s bound to be a confrontation between the various oligarchs and Nazis, after which the pragmatists will appear and lead the way to a settlement. Eventually, there will be some kind of accommodation and a new state will emerge, but I can’t imagine how long it will take for that to happen.
If you want a more systematic analysis of the points above, please see my analysis (here: http://10.16.86.131/the-russian-response-to-a-double-declaration-of-war/)
MIKE WHITNEY lives in Washington state. He is a contributor to Hopeless: Barack Obama and the Politics of Illusion (AK Press). Hopeless is also available in a Kindle edition. He can be reached at fergiewhitney@msn.com.
I suggest you include a link to your new site with each article for those who like to read the comments. Apologies if you have already, I could not find one
Best wishes
Here’s a great video from the Crimean referendum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHJdrKsLo1M&feature=player_detailpage
Hi from Germany, read the Mike Whitney interview recently but despite my consent about many things told concerning Ukr and Russia I feel one issue has been strongly underestimated.
The intention of the US to really “destroy” Europe” as consolidated independent player in the game of big powers.
After WWII the US had the choice to deindustrialize Germany or to rebuild it as an outpost against the Sovjet empire. They chose the latter but had a good chunk of mistrust against such a reemerging economical and political strength of Germany. Therefore they installed a vast network of so-called “Transatlantics”. These are many organisations that have substantial influence in economy, politics and media. They now perfectly dominate political live in Germany. They literally are able to switch political carriers on and off as – for example – they also dominate the media with the broadest coverage. Furthermore they extensively utilize the principle of “divide et impera” and so one could follow “the cut” through parties as well as between parties and even between countries as a whole.
An example of the party level is the US Agent J Fischer, having been rewarded for his pro Iraq intervention position with a good live in the US opposing his own coalition partner Gerhard Schroeder who followed the idea of an axis France-Germany-Russia which endangered the US influence. Look how he is bashed nowadays. On the country level this can be recognized when looking at the difference between Baltikum, Poland and UK, strongly opposing Germany, France, and others which traditionally good relationships to Russia. UK is being on the run to leave the EU which will definitely is weakening Europe.
This US principle worked so well that the US installed the same principle on the EU level. The EU as being a habitat without necessity of democratic legitimation from the citizens is perfectly suited for activities of politicians against their own citizens best interests. So it comes that the green Party but also conservative politicians as well as guys like Barroso, Rompuy or Degucht are fierce enemies of Russia and are promoteing sanctions – even at the price of economic failure of Europe. Furthermore they promote the divorce of Europe from Russia – its logical natural resource base, its market and the access to Asia. Not only by spending billions into non EU Ukrainian trash can, the association of Georgia and Moldavia provides much more future potential regions of conflict once the UKR crises might get solved. Furthermore the funds needed to stabilize UKR will clearly be far beyond what the EU can afford and therefore a lot of internal trouble to distribute funds will arise. Additionally the rise of a Nazi destabilized UKR at the border of Europe will provide additional instability in Europe through potential cooperation of Nazi teroristic activity and proliferation of weapons. All this supports und justifies more totalitaristic NSA efforts in Europe beside damageing Europe.
This is accompanied by the Goldmann Sachs agents in ECB promoting deficit spending and QE to undermine the Euro as reserve currency.
All this is to destroy Europe and Russia as petrochemical competitor. Russia is pushed to China to rebuild a new “Eastern block” and to support its Nationalism because this constitutes the perfect “enemy” that justifies further military expenses which had been endangered to be cut in 2013 until spring 2014 exactly when Maidan started. This way the US “military-petrochemical complex” is able to redirect poor US taxpayers funds into their pockets instead of into a health care system that would work.
Finally the US have act now and have to start a war against such a new “Eastern bloc”. In case they will wait another 10 years China will be too strong.
Therefore I really see the future in dark, which will mean reestablishing of trouble in UKR – for ex by a Nazi Putsch against Poroshenko but real trouble to start somewhere in Far-east.
Great interview, one disagreement, however.
You say, “Sooner or later the US and EU will realize that they need Russia’s help. And when they finally figure that out, they’ll work together to reach a comprehensive political agreement.”
Maybe the EU will come to this realization, or at least the Germans and French. But I don’t think the neocons in the US are capable of such an understanding. Their plan is to dismantle Russia, to remove it as a threat to US hegemony and simultaneously open it up to corporate and IMF exploitation.
I worry that they believe they own propaganda to the point where they think they can “win” a nuclear war with Russia. The “nuclear primacy” arguments published in Foreign Affairs 8 years ago may be part of the belief system of these fools.
That is why Putin needs to begin public discussion of the likely consequences of a strategic nuclear war, which peer-reviewed scientific articles predict would wipe out the human race. See the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists article, “Self-Assured Destruction: The climate impacts of nuclear war” by Drs. Alan Robock and Brian Toon at http://climate.envsci.rutgers.edu/pdf/RobockToonSAD.pdf
The US scientists would back Putin up, should he care to initiate the conversation.
http://www.nucleardarkness.org
Dear Saker: Re your “1– There must be regime change in Kiev followed by de-Nazification. Neither Russia nor Novorussia will ever be safe as long as the Nazis are in power in Kiev.”
Unfortunately, like Franco in Spain, the Kiev regime may be around for a long time, especially while the U.S. backs it, with our deep pockets and unforgiving nature. (Like the Bourbons, we learn nothing and forget nothing.) Consequently Russia may need to endure the Kiev Nazis for a long time, while building up its defense, hoping for the best.
The alternatives, possibly leading to WW3, may be worse.
@Ingrian
The same clusterfock foreign policy Obama has regarding ISIS in Syraq.
They make it up as they go along
Same as Bush: assume that the best case scenario is the most likely scenario in Ukraine as it has failed miserably in Iraq
AngloZionists have equally purged the Arabists and Russian specialists at the State Dept.
Icky Vicky Nuland worked for Cheney for Chrissakes.what is she doing in a “Progressive” President’s employ?
Obama deserves these massive failures in Iraq and Ukraine for years of “kicking the can down the road”. Too bad thousands are dying for his feckless weakness and craven arrogance
@Peter
The slaughter of 2 million Vietnamese and 1 million Indonesians came directly on the
—-
Obama’s mother fingered Indonesian leftists for extermination while working for USAID. Obomber’s step father was one of the generals who oversaw the genocide
Truly the acorn doesn’t fall far from the tree
http://www.thesecrettruth.com/obama.htm
@Peter
The slaughter of 2 million Vietnamese and 1 million Indonesians came directly on the
—-
Obama’s mother fingered Indonesian leftists for extermination while working for USAID. Obomber’s step father was one of the generals who oversaw the genocide
Truly the acorn doesn’t fall far from the tree
http://www.thesecrettruth.com/obama.htm
This is OT but I read today in RT or Zerohedge…can’t remember which, that Ebola is now on “count down” to uncontrollable world wide death ….
What do you bet that they will come out with a vaccine in a couple of weeks, that unfortunately is expensive.. ??
I think this mess is created in a lab and that population depletion is ok with the creators…who will of course be the owners of the patent for the vaccine…
But these times are predicted and “this too shall pass” and if, as I’ve said before, they don’t blow us up in the next few years, then we will conquer.
God bless humanity…
http://nsnbc.me/2014/10/16/netanyahu-tries-persuade-ki-moon-halt-international-investigation-gaza/
IMEMC : Israeli media reported, today, that PM Benjamin Netanyahu tried to convince UN Secretary-General Ban Kyi-Moon to eliminate the international investigation regarding the latest Israeli aggression on the Gaza Strip.
Netanyahu_Ban Kyi-moon_Israel_UNSG_UNAccording to the Palestinian News Network, an Israeli paper stated that Netanyahu alongside many Israeli officials during their meetings with Ban, and tried to convince him of not proceeding with an international investigation around the case of Gaza, claiming that Israel is pursuing “private investigations” that ‘will be shown to the UN’.
CONCERNED GERMAN: I wonder if you know about Germany’s secret legal status which is being kept from the German people? Please see ‘Will France and Germany Challenge NATO?’
Also http://nsnbc.me/2014/07/11/germany-expels-u-s-spy-chief-opens-geopolitical-can-of-worms/
Regards, Penelope
Pepe Escobar OCT 15:
Caliph Erdogan’s dangerous play
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MID-01-151014.html
To the Green Zone!
Tehran, for its part, has clearly identified Erdogan’s nasty game. The Sultan knows monster B1-B bombers flying over Kobani are absolutely useless – while The Caliph’s goons deploy massive car bombs and keep advancing. “Boots on the ground” will be needed.
Enter NATO asset Turkey. But with one condition: regime change in Damascus, or at least a prelude, via that “buffer”/no-fly zone over Syria.
The Big Picture remains the same. Sultan Erdogan and the House of Saud want regime change in Damascus (Erdogan dreams of a Sunni puppet as a vassal of Ankara; the Saudis want their own Wahhabi schemer). Israel merrily agrees. And if that comes with a bonus – attacking the new Iraqi government, still supported by Iran, in the American-made Green Zone – even better. The lowdown: “Don’t Do Stupid Stuff” translates as the Gulf Cooperation Council, Turkey and Israel using Washington to advance their quite explicit agenda.
Re Concerned German said…@ 15 October, 2014 18:03
I suggest your present view is perhaps limited.
Strategically there are elephants in the room, namely what/whom did the “Americans” declare war on.
The first elephant is the notion of the “Americans” rather than the opponents, since elements holding other passports are part of the opponents – including various “Germans”.
The second elephant needs slightly more lateral thinking in data interpretation.
I suggest you try an experiment. Get a world atlas using Mercator’s projection and turn it “upside down” – things may look different.
Some see “American” forces in “Latvia”, “Poland”, “Romania”, “Bulgaria”, “Turkey” as a threat to “Russia”, where as lateral thinkers hypothesise that “American” forces in “Latvia”, “Poland”, “Romania”, “Bulgaria”, “Turkey” are positioned on the periphery of that which the “Americans” seek to control.
Some see “American” naval dispositions as a threat to “China and Russia”, but lateral thinkers hypothesise that since Eurasia is a landmass with increasing land-based communications, “American” naval dispositions are a threat to those dependent on sea based communications; islands like Australia, “Great Britain” and Japan for example, and economies integrated into globalisation primarily by sea.
Sanctions are another attempt to control the same targets – some elements of the opponents realising that they
1. Did not win the cold war.
2. Their efforts to control China and Russia in the 1990’s failed.
3. That they needed fall-back strategies to maintain their advantages.
4. That engendering fear was a pre-requisite to facilitate such strategies – strategy of tension, information management etc.
5. That China and Russia cannot be realistically controlled but would have propaganda uses in facilitating the control of others, made easier if control wore the clothes of co-operation against “mutual threat”.
The third and most important elephant is the effect of the opponents socio-economic system on the biosphere – to quote Naomi Klein’s latest book, This changes everything.
The opponents will be transcended, the strategic choice being whether this is achieved at the expensive of much life on this particular planet.
So what can be done – first make the elephants visible and then make use of them in a co-ordinated way.
Concerned German said…@ 15 October, 2014 18:03
Let me pose some questions which might help add to your thesis, that you seem to restrict to Germany post 1945, which I would suggest is self-debilitating.
To restrict the questions to within your paradigm:
1. Why did Albert Speer not hang?
2. Whatever happened to Stepan Bandera?
3. Why RAF and its associates, and what is their significance/uses in 2014?