by Alexander Mercouris
I have deliberately helped back on the story about the satellite photos that supposedly show a Ukrainian fighter shooting down MH17 to see what the response would be, whether any more evidence would come to light and what the Russian government and military would say about them .
In the event the Russian government and military have ignored them as I notice to a great extent have Russian media organisations like Sputnik,TASS and RT.
The photos have been widely ridiculed as fakes and I am afraid I tend to agree. My reason for thinking that these photos are almost certainly fakes is not because of the specific criticisms that have been made of the photos (persuasive though some of these criticisms are) but that the photos are quite simply too good to be true. Until and unless we know the actual provenance of these photos (ie. whose satellite supposedly took them – we only know it was not the Russians’) we should pay them no attention.
I would make two more points about these photos:
1. It seems that these photos were part of the evidence used by a body known as the Russian Institute of Engineers that published a report on MH17. I don’t know much about this body but I was frankly unimpressed by the report. If the report did draw on these photos, then I am afraid that is another reason to treat that report with skepticism.
2. From literally the day MH17 was shot down it has been clear to me that an organised attempt is being made by someone to spread the story that MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter. There was the story of the mysterious Spanish air traffic controller for instance that circulated within hours of the tragedy and which effectively got the theory going. Note that we have heard little or nothing from this person since then, which makes his evidence look even more like someone’s fabrication.
It is possible that those behind this operation are the Russians, possibly because they know that that is what happened and they want to draw people’s attention to the fact. However if that were the case then I would have expected them to say as much publicly and to make their evidence public since they have no conceivable reason to keep it secret.
I have to say (and I have been worrying about this for some time) that It seems to me frankly more likely that whoever is behind the campaign to circulate this theory is doing so deliberately in order to create a false trail in the full knowledge that the theory is false and that it will eventually be proved to be false, leaving those who believed it feeling foolish and appearing discredited.
Let me assure people that I know both from history and experience that these sort of provocation tactics really do happen in the world of intelligence and there most definitely are people working in intelligence agencies around the world who really are capable of concocting and carrying out operations of this sort. The fact that these photos appear to originate with a western source strengthen these concerns. .
Let me remind people of my previous comment: we should not let ourselves be hustled into a false binary where fighter=Ukrainians and BUK=NAF. As of today we know for a fact the Ukrainians had both and we do not know for a fact that the NAF had either. That is as far as the facts so far go.
——-
Commentary by the Saker: while I do not have the expertise to state so categorically, I continue to believe that this is a fake. What I am sure of is that it shows a Su-27 and not a Su-25 (or even a MiG-29). The difference between a Su-27 and Su-25 is immense, and if we accept the notion that a Su-278 might have attacked MH-17 then we need to completely revise our model of the flight envelopes of the two aircraft and of the engagement. I am not saying categorically that this is impossible, but only that I am extremely dubious.
The Saker
Wrote a comment about this story on a previous entry as this entry was being posted. As it’s also relevant here, this is a repost of it.
The satellite “evidence” of a Su-27 firing at MH17 are being given coverage by the western zionist media. If this material was legit, can any one imagine these ziofascists giving it coverage?
No way. Not their style with solid evidence, especially that they will have a hard time discrediting.
This material is sourced to western satellites, as well. This further argues against its legitimacy.
To me, it looks like one of those zionist smear campaigns where they “plant” dubious material they created and try to make a claim stick their opponent invented the sham. The zio-media has been taking such a line from what I’ve seen, that Russia is running a scam. Perhaps it might be expedient for Russian media houses to take a close look at who of their staff originally “introduced” this material. Especially those with connections to Israel.
вот так
the “false binary where fighter=Ukrainians and BUK=NAF”.
Absolutely, yes. Well said, Alexander.
This is how it has smelled since ‘Carlos the Spanish-Ukrainian air force controller’, and we’ve watched the hyrdra-heads germinate since then.
http://www.stopfake.org/lozh-sputnikovyj-snimok-ataki-na-malajzijskij-boing-na-pervom-kanale/
http://www.stopfake.org/lozh-sputnikovyj-snimok-ataki-na-malajzijskij-boing-na-pervom-kanale/
Back in the spring or early summer there was a fake Rand Corporation memo making the rounds, which also seemed “too good to be true” (i.e. it purported to be a blueprint to the Ukraine coup government for gross human rights violations). These types of things have been described in another context as “golden apples”. They are too-clever fakes designed to lead people off track and make them look foolish, and ultimately undermine their viewpoint.
shot down by NATO the AEGIS system bin present this time
to start a war with Russia and punish Malaysia for the international criminal court
Don’t know about the NATO bit although probably true in a round about way, but I’ve always thought the selection of Malaysian airlines out of all the potential victims over flying Ukraine was too coincidental, given the court proceedings against Israel which more than likely had something to do with ML370 as well.
The picture is fake. The plane is a boeing 767 not a 777. The inserted picture is an offcial Boeing picture:
It’s this one http://www.boeing.com/boeing/companyoffices/gallery/images/commercial/767200-01.page
Olivier Berruyer has currently the best debunking article with lot of more material showing the (very) obvious fakery
http://www.les-crises.fr/actuukraine-15-11-2014/
This gif should put any discussion to rest
https://veriteperdue.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/img.gif
Those photo’s are part of a campaign of disinformation.
People and researcher become busy with nuts, with sideways instead follow the mainline WHO did it ? and WHY? Follow the money, the interests etc.
Btw MH17 seems to me be fabricated on the spot and none real flying aircraft is/was involved!
The false trail is the BUK version. This is what the Ukies and the west have been pushing from the moment MH17 crashed.
Russian military is the one who de facto gave official Russian support for the air-to-air missile version. Russian military used its own data, so it’s extremely unlikely that they fell for a false trail.
The story of the photo in question is simply „fabricate a fake and then expose it in order to discredit your opponent“. This strategy is very common in this war, they just use photos from Bosnia, Syria etc, then write in some twitter account that it’s from Donbass, then another account exposes the fake as „Russian propaganda“ in order to discredit a magnitude of genuine evidence.
The sad thing is that the Russian engineer was stupid enough to fall for it.
The other curious thing is that the fake came just a few days after a Russian newspaper published a credible radar-picture (which Saker talked about in an earlier post) that confirmed the info which the Russian military published on 21st of july. So the fake at hand is possibly an attempt at discrediting the new genuine data.
Fake probably – the interesting thing is why it is getting more press space in the western media than the original russian military briefing 4 days after the event which made more or less the same point and more.
“What would it take to convince you that Putin is truly the leader of the world-wide resistance to the Empire and, therefore, the leader of the (truly) Free World?”
Err, ok:
1. Stop calling America his “partner”
2. Stop making excuses for not fulfilling Iran’s purchase of defensive weapons that even the US admits are not part of the sanctions regime.
3. Stop making excuses for not fulfilling Syria’s purchase of defensive weapons… Especially now when the US is bombing Syria!
4. Stop supporting the Fascist Sisi regime in Egypt while claiming to be fighting fascism in the Ukraine.
5. Stop Supporting that Hindu Fascist/Nazi Modi in India
6. Speak out against genuine oppression around the world, not merely that which is politically convenient for him.
7. [This one is for Saker, not Putin] With all due respect: Stop supporting Serbian Fascism from two decades ago while decrying Ukrainian Fascism.
Speaking against the West in a speech or two proves nothing. Putin, while more honorable than his Western counterparts for sure, is just another nationalist politician drunk with his own power and ego (and a personality cult to boot). He is no Nasrallah or even Chavez.
Anti-imperial statements are self-serving, the oligarchs are still going strong, and the whole Eurasionist vs Westernist distinction is not as big as Saker makes it (the treatment of Dugin shows that a lot of this is just for show).
Russia wants “in” the Western tent. Europe and America don’t want Russia “in” and insists on moving its apparatus East. Putin’s anti-Western statements are a reaction to that.
Anyone who cannot see that Putin is using Novorussia as a pawn in his larger geoplitical stakes is being self-delusional, otherwise the entirety of NR would be liberated by now. If it weren’t for all the innocent Russian residents of Ukraine that have been killed one might be justified in making fine distinctions. But here there is no excuse.
We have to stop projecting our own idealist frameworks (“leader of the world-wide resistance to the Empire”) on opportunistic politicians such as, yes, Vladimir Putin.
[And yes, taking the Crimea was a classic act of geo-political opportunism, however odious the regime in Kiev may be. Modulating help to NovuRussia so that it can neither win nor lose is another classic act of geo-political opportunism.]
So it seems like the airplane is way to big compared to the runway. a low earth orbit is like 300 km and the plane is 10 km from earth. Given those distances the plane should look about as big as it would look if it would be parked at the terminal. However it is much much bigger than similar sized objects on the ground (compare to runway). If this isn’t fake it was taken from a spy plane not a satelite roughly 2-4 times the altitude of the plane.
This type of disinformation — to destroy the credibility of one’s enemy, by allowing him to reveal stories that at first are damaging to one’s side, but are later shown to be false, was exactly the modus operandi of Bush’s chief strategist, Karl Rove.
I tend to agree with the Russian General Staff (and the German pilot Peter Haisenko) that MH17 was not shot down by a Buk but rather by another aircraft.
If it was a Buk, where is the vapor trail evidence? where is the eye witness testimony of the Buk approaching and striking the aircraft? Where is the radar imagery of the Buk’s 10km ascent?
However I also don’t see why everyone is fixated on an SU-25 as the assassin. The Russians did not say it definitely had to be an SU-25. It could be some other aircraft maybe an SU-27. Maybe a Mig.
As to the photos. I also suspect that they are fake. The sourcing alone is sufficient to draw that conclusion.
There are probably two reasons for them;
1. get the Russian media/Government to jump on them and “own” them as evidence for their theory. Once that happens the fakery can be revealed and the Russians discredited.
2. By discrediting these pictures the theory that MH17 was shot down by an aircraft will itself be discredited.
The second is by far the most important of the two reasons. I suspect that these fake images are being released now to prepare the way for the discrediting of true evidence of an aerial shoot down of MH17. Such evidence may be about to be, unavoidably, released.
First sentence should read “held back”?
“It is possible that those behind this operation are the Russians, possibly because they know that that is what happened and they want to draw people’s attention to the fact. However if that were the case then I would have expected them to say as much publicly and to make their evidence public since they have no conceivable reason to keep it secret.”
The Russian Defense ministry did release some evidence and a number of very pointed questions, all of which were squarely ignored by most of the Western media.
As others have pointed out, the silence of the Western nations in the face of the many valid questions raised by the Russians, and their clear attempts to obfuscate the crash investigation says more about what happened as any “shoot down” photo.
Hi Saker,
We may still have lots of “fake” news about the MH17… Russia’s intelligence is well above and vastly superior to any NATO/USSA’ one… Other provocations from the Empire for forcing Russia to disclose more of its intelligence is not to be discarded… The Empire is caught right handed within this MH17 false flag. Russia won’t have to offer more info but the Empire will soon or later be obliged to disclose it all and demonstrate to the all-world its commissioning. Russia is playing the “game” of humiliation so dear to the Empire… Isn’t one of fundamental principles within martial art to use the strength of the adversary against himself, is it?
Philippe H.
Sure enough these satellite photos were exploited to accuse Russia and Channel One of “faking” evidence
‘Russia accused of faking pics to shift blame in MH17 disaster.’
http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/russia-accused-of-faking-pics-to-shift-blame-in-mh17-disaster/story-fnizu68q-1227123846130
Saker, does my memory fail me, or did you not post other tweets from the mysterious ‘Carlos’ at Kiev ATC about a month or two before the MH17? I am not a 100 percent certain, but I think you did.
If you wanted to discredit the notion that the Ukies/USA/EU/NATO shot down MH17 and embarass Russia what better way than to put out something that shows the Ukies doing exactly that but which can then be rapidly disproven.
Just good enough to fool people into believing it and then quickly exposing it as fake. Any future attempt at the truth with science and facts is easily smothered by the ‘fake’ meme.
It is amazing how much vilification propaganda mileage is achieved by this MH17 recycled saga. Another marker is the timing coinciding with the G20. Just like Georgia invasion during 2008 Olympics and Ukraine with the Russian Olympics.
Embedded in the wreckage and bodies is the evidence of cannon shells, shrapnel -whatever brought MH17 down. It’s not difficult forensic science and should have been done immediately. That it hasn’t speaks volumes about a cover-up.
Cui bono? And there you have the answer -and the culprits.
The picture is definitely a fake and this French article details why (scroll down): http://www.les-crises.fr/actuukraine-15-11-2014/
The gist of it is that the markings on the plane are in the wrong place for MH17, the weather for that day is wrong, and one of the clouds on the picture matches the shape of the cloud that can be found at the same place on Google Earth. Plus, the missile is coming from MH17’s right side while the plane is (at this point) believed to have mostly suffered damage from the left.
But yes, we shouldn’t forget that Kiev has lots of Buks, while it was never proved that Novorossia ever had any.
Anglozionist media is brilliant on media campaigns. Guess which country of the ME is the world leader in the science of game theory ?
Sorry Saker but you are wrong about one thing and possibly about a few:
– the Spanish air traffic controller was on Twitter for months previous to the shooting down of the aircraft.
– the reason the Russians aren’t saying anything is that they don’t want to get into any details of their satellites and imagery capabilities.
I like you and your Weltanschauung and find you to be an intelligent man, but when you make an argument, you don’t seem to see another possibility to your point of view.
Caution is advised.
Advisement is taken.
We don’t have original sourced material.
We have second and third hand evidence.
We do know the BUK the rebels had was not fully functional with all components to target. So, if it was a Buk and they fired it at a jet fighter and missed and it took down the airliner, it was unlucky, not intentional.
However, photography from multiple sources of the debris tells a truth that apparently no expert has challenged. Bullets were hitting the plane before it hit the earth.
BUK destruction has been denied by Russian Military. No one has contradicted them.
That leaves us with bullets hitting the plane in the air, and an air-to air missile hitting the plane in the air, causing breakup in the air.
Thus we have: No BuK hitting the plane.
We have bullets hitting the plane in the air.
An air-to air missile hitting the plane.
No BuK means no militia responsible.
Bullets and air-to-air means no militia responsible.
That leaves the Ukie air force, Polish, or Lithuanian or mercenary contractor flying for the Ukies responsible.
Or some Russian working for Liberals or Fifth Columnists or an Oligarch who had a SU-27 and shot down the airliner to bring hell down on Putin and the Russian Federation.
Or I did it, which is as likely as the last possibility.
I think the proof so exists, so overwhelmingly, that the truth will bust out eventually.
It’s like the rest of the entire Ukraine hell hole. Odessa was not a massacre. It was self-immolation. The women and girls were not raped and murdered. The men and boys of Krasny Liman are not really missing and murdered. And the shelling of millions of people in Donbass is really done by the militia not the Ukies.
Neo-nazis love all humans. Kolomoisky is a philanthropist. And cluster bombs and white phosphorus are really gentle to human flesh and bone.
We know the truth.
They are merely spinning everything and making everyone dizzy and nauseous.
It’s the Hotel California. We are all stuck in it and will never get out. We are programmed to receive, but we cannot leave.
Hotel California
[from Blue]
I can hardly find a legitimate investigation about anything anymore from world events to a shooting in Ferguson, and even lesser events. The primary mode is now spin, obfuscation, and lies. This is part of the general anomie and cultural breakdown in the world — not least that of the media.
Also recall now a common strategy of the empire: initiating agitation and divisions, feeding weapons and aid to both sides of a conflict to get them to wipe each other out, so the imperialist hyenas can move in unimpeded. Should we expect different in the information war? Feed the trolls (of both camps)!
In the meantime everything becomes a matter of ‘opinion’, dysinformation, mystification, obscurantism, confusion — and apathy. Divide and conquer; confuse and conquer.
‘Keep your eye on the prize’ — the end of the US/EU fascist empire.
_Blue
It is frightening which amateurs are allowed to talk about MH17 in russian Media. Even that presentation by the russian defense-ministry is total crap and easily debunked as such.
Who the hell are these guys, and why are they even allowed to do this? I doubt this was sanctioned off by Putin who certainly is not so stupid.
OK, Let me play devil’s advocate here. I agree that it is highly desirable to know more about the source of the photo. Those who have actually seen the photo and consider it as authentic– or at least unadulterted– include:
–itar-TASS . Has anyone followed them for long enough to know if they are reliable? They seem to endorse the photo, but the story did not include where George Beatle an alleged trafic controller got the photo. However, if the photo is legit, his source must remain clandestein; I’m sure you can see why. http://en.itar-tass.com/world/759835
–Ivan A. Andrievskii, who heads up the Russian Union of Engineers. He showed the photo on the Russian Channel One program, so presumably finds it reliable, altho he may have expressed caveats; we don’t know. The report of his organization was published quite some time ago and this photo formed no part of it. I found their report one of the best. It’s here: http://www.globalresearch.ca/analysis-of-the-reasons-for-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-report-of-the-russian-union-of-engineers/5412216
The wikipedia description of the organization is “an all-Russian nongovernmental organization of engineers, design-engineers, builders, inventors, rationalizers, researchers, scientists, scientific and technical employees, and managers of industrial production. It has published several studies on economics, energy and housing related subjects and a paper on Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.”
Often it’s best to admit you don’t have sufficient info for a conclusion.
davidius
There are no photos so I can’t judge for my self.
But if it wasn’t a SU-25 or a SA-11. What brought it down?
The Buk missile was that the US said they had prove for, but no evidence has been shown so far.
From literally the day MH17 was shot down it has been clear to me that an organised attempt is being made by someone to spread the story that MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter.
I have to say that it seems to me frankly more likely that whoever is behind the campaign to circulate this theory is doing so deliberately in order to create a false trail in the full knowledge that the theory is false and that it will eventually be proved to be false, leaving those who believed it feeling foolish and appearing discredited.
Surface-to-air missiles which are capable of reaching an altitude of ten kilometres leave a large white vapour trail which is visible over a wide area; you can easily find videos of this on Youtube. Nobody reported seeing any such thing when MH-17 was shot down. Is this not compelling evidence that it was attacked from the air?
Commentary by the Saker: while I do not have the expertise to state so categorically, I continue to believe that this is a fake. What I am sure of is that it shows a Su-27 and not a Su-25 (or even a MiG-29).
Indeed, the profile of the forward fuselage, particularly around the air intakes, seem to match an Su-27 much better than a MiG-29. It also seems to have the large Su-27 tailboom for the drag parachute.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/images/su-27-vs-mig-29.gif
I think the following argument is definitive: consider the airport runway which appears about halfway between the Boeing and the Su-27. In the photograph, it is about the same length as the Boeing. But a runway like that must be AT LEAST a kilometre long, whereas the length of a Boeing 777-200ER is 64m. Therefore, by simple geometry, the altitude of the camera above the ground must be at least fifteen times its altitude above the Boeing. But the altitude of the Boeing is said to be about 10km, so the camera cannot be more than 700m above that, which rules out a satellite; it might be mounted on some kind of surveillance aircraft.
The distance between the two aircraft seems to be about ten times the length of the Boeing, therefore also about 700m. Both aircraft images seem to be taken from almost directly above. But if the height of the camera above them is comparable to the distance between them, it cannot be directly above both of them. Therefore the picture is artificial.
“””””Anonymous said…’Carlos the Spanish-Ukrainian air force controller'”””””
For what it is worth: Back then this guy had a pretty complete twitter profile still in google’s cache. To falsify this would take some time (impossible). It also still appeared to have texts with +1’s/likes, comments and he had thousands of follerws.
Yes, I’m convinced that somebody managed to smuggle in and to get the “new” sattelite images broadcasted on #1. TV (inside and outise of Russia) in order to make the entire story laughable. But IMHO exactly not because it is so ridiculous, but rather because it may probably (just a guess??) have been the truth.
I am baffled as to why there are two sources for this photo.
–George Bilt, an MIT-educated 26-yr expert.
and
–George Beatle, a 26-year air traffic controller.
Why is one mentioned in some stories and the other in others???
Perhaps the most damming part of all this is that the Boeing in the picture is not a 777-200ER. It looks more like a 767. The resolution between the two planes is different, the airline logo is wrong -and the list goes on.
Very clever Empire/anti-Putin propaganda to confuse and humiliate as it will attract and fool the average TV addict for just long enough for Empire to shred it as a fake with accompanying righteous indignation and vilification.
The preliminary Dutch report gives UTC 13.19.59 as the last communication from the crew ended.
Time stamp on the supposed satellite photo says UTC 1.19.59. It doesn’t say PM anywhere.
this image is fake, and it was planted to be called out later- like countless other fabrications later “exposed” by sites like “stopfake.org”. they post pictures on boards, ask people to spread them. they even sometimes uploaded videos to youtube by themselves and claimed they were “shown on russian tv”. they were very amateurish in the beginning, but now they seem to have become rather professional.
to plant fakes and lies to later call someone out if its picked up is a technique as old as it gets.
there is absolutely no reason for the russian/novorussian side to use fake images. none. they had much better real images all the time. this goes for atrocities as well as for showing peoples support for secession.
its not like that the russian/novorussian side is not also using those methods. at least thats what i suspect of them, if they are competent.
f. ex. the infamous “proof” of russian special forces in sloviansk was most likely a case of planted fake-evidence – maybe even from within the SBU. but its not that easy to tell, since they had no real images they could have used easily. my reasoning here is more based on the fact that the fakes were so easy to debunk.
i btw. also suspect that the same thing has been played in some cases on the BBC et. al. in syria.
but of course, there are also guinuine fabrications made by kiev and others. these “crowdsourced” reports on mh17 f. ex. are one case of fakes that were not planted but guinuine- and thats why they prefered to hide behind someone with no official connection.
as readers might have noticed, the us and nato even stoped using any “proof” at all, western media stoped using evidence from kiew some time during summer. they just repeat their claimes as fact, its less risky than using some dubious proof that might turn out fake later. and it seems to work well enough- the media is in lockstep as much as it gets, the “other side” has already been discredited by endless smears, and most effectively by the planting of fakes like mentioned above.
if you want to lie, its better to do it big and loud, to shout it and to repeat it a million times. it has to be concerted to work best- and it seems western media has masterd this in a way that was not imaginable to me just less than a year ago.
“I continue to believe that this is a fake”
why just believe ? all sources for the photoshop-montage have been found, including the googleearth-cloud formations and even the boeing-picture:
http://www.boeing.com/boeing/companyoffices/gallery/images/commercial/767200-01.page
Saker,
I have one single question:
Why doesn’t Putin nationalise the CB? Russia is not even on the board of the BIS?
I do hope I live the day Putin will win this battl but until then I wake up every day eager to see some signs… still I don’t… which makes me sick, sick, sick and hopeless.
The images were allegedly sent in an email by a George Bilt. He is wrong right off by claiming th RIGHT engine was shot (physical evidence is that it was the LEFT engine) and by heatseeking missile (which would cause a fire, but neither engine was on fire).
He follows up his faulty analysis with fake images. (There have been several other right-engine shot-from-both-sides theories around, too, he might be the author of one of them).
Metabunk, which specialises in debunking, very quickly proved the images to be off Google Earth — years before.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/debunked-this-photo-shows-a-ukraine-mig-29-shot-down-mh17.5107/#post-134245
They also found the original image used to make the fake MH17. They found the same composition on a Russian forum from OCTOBER so it isn’t even new.
I’ve worked with those guys on few things. They are VERY thorough and have excellent graphics gear.
I agree that this “evidence” is being used to create a false dichotomy b/w Ukraine shooting down MH17 with a fighter jet or rebels using a BUK. Ukrainians could have shot it down with a BUK alone or together with a jet fighter (for clean-up).
What is most astounding to me is the unprofessionalism of Russia Channel 1TV. It is so obviously fake! Only two items make this clear without having to do any sophisticated analysis: the sun is shining from the south-southeast side of the passenger plane (since the nose is also reflecting), but it should be from the south-southwest given the time of day, 13:19); and from the east-southeast on the fighter jet (the fighter jet and passenger plane are not even aligned).
Moreover, the “logo” on the side of the passenger plane is clearly in the wrong spot, and seems not to have enough letters to spell “Malaysia”, much less “Malaysian airlines”. See e.g. http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/zyalt/10761149/560055/560055_600.jpg
1TV needs to fire or at least demote whoever was responsible for making Russian state-owned media the laughing stock of the world. That is called accountability. (I understand they never presented it as legitimate, but it shouldn’t have been shown at all. I’m not even sure they’ve “updated” the story to indicate it is fake.
Germany’s fast hold on the european continent, by Emmanuel Todd.
http://www.les-crises.fr/translation-germanys-fast-hold-on-the-european-continent-by-emmanuel-todd/
Dorogoi Saker,
I apologize, I never have anything interesting to add to the comments. But I did read your rant against Catholicism, and your bio.
In the spirit of Christmas, does the Soviet Army Chorus or the Russian Army Chorus have a Christmas album available? They have the world’s most beautiful tenors.
Lindka
The nazis are shoooting civilians in the streets of Mariupol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ej_Oq-rbLY&feature=em-uploademail
I agree we shouldn’t fall into the “BUK=Anti-Fascist Resistance did it” trap.
But the points I make are:
1) Preliminary findings of the Dutch investigators are “high energy objects.” If it were shrapnel from a BUK they would definitely say so, because at least it is marginally plausible that a BUK **might** have been fired by the Novorussians, but 30 mm canon fire leaves only one possible culprit. So as far as I’m concerned the investigators (term used loosely) are damned by their silence.
2)If and when an authentic video showing essentially the same thing as this one surfaces, does anyone expect the empire to say “Good one guys, you got us! It was us all along. Well played.” Hint: No. they will do the best they can to impeach it, attack it and destroy its credibility. They will treat it exactly as they would a fake video. People are not experts in these matters and they will not know what to think. And the TPTB will go all Lance Armstrong: Deny Deny Deny. No matter how overwhelming the evidence, Deny.
Details on life in Mariupol from ANNA News
current record
Eyewitness Accounts, Genocide in Ukraine, Ukrainian War Crimes, Ukrainian Crimes Against Humanity, Ukrainian Punitive Battalions
Eyewitness: Murder, Robbery and Rape in Mariupol
Preamble: The first video below documents a telephone conversation between the editor of ANNA News, an independent news agency, and a resident of Mariupol, a port city in the south of Ukraine, which is currently occupied and terrorised by fascist National Guards. It documents heinous crimes being perpetrated against the civilian population, especially against women and girls.
The second video shows a scene, captured on a mobile phone camera, that has become part of everyday life in Mariupol today.
The third video (with English subtitles) shows events that occurred on May 9, 2014, in Mariupol and which demonstrate the mercilessness of the fascist National Guards against the civilian population.
Translators: Russian to German—Fedot Panteleev; German to English—Marcel Sardo
Editor: @GBabeuf
Subtitles: Marcel Sardo
Video: Eyewitness report: murder and rape in Mariupol (08.11.2014)
REPORTER: This is the Voice of Novorossiya, the programme “In Reality”. We are going to talk about what is going on in Novorossiya. First we will speak about the Donetsk and the Lugansk Peoples’s Republics. First we take a look at the Donetsk Republic, an area that is occupied by the “glorious” and “fine” Ukrainian Army. We are connected with the City of Mariupol. Our interlocutor, Olga, comes from this wonderful city. Hello, Olga!
OLGA: Hello!
Olga, tell me, what’s going on there, because one only gets sporadic and inconsistent information from Mariupol. Usually someone has blown up something or killed someone. After that they say: “That’s not true, here all is quiet and well..” Some say that the officials have fled the city and that the “PrivatBank” has shifted its assets and branches. Tell us, what do things look like in Mariupol in reality?
The mood in the city is, of course, far from the best. There are actually people here who describe themselves as Ukrainian patriots. They are in favour of the Ukrainian authorities. But the vast majority of people are hiding their true views on the People’s Republic of Donetsk. After the referendum on May 11, everyone saw how many people came and stood for four hours in line to cast their votes for an independent People’s Republic of Donetsk.
As for the “PrivatBank”—yes, there are rumours that Kolomoisky withdrew his assets. But the branches are still open.
Regarding the killings and abductions of people—it is all true. This is very carefully concealed. There is no one talking about it. The Police work very closely with the criminal battalions, Azov, Dnepr, Shakhtarsk and Holy Mary. That name is, of course, a terrible one—if you ask me—for people who murder their fellow citizens. It is also somehow very stupid, if one can say so.
Recently an incident occurred not far from my home. It was at a bus stop in broad daylight, in the presence of fifteen people. A car full of Nazis pulled up. They chose two girls who looked the youngest, they just threw them in the car and disappeared. We have heard nothing from the girls for four days. One can only guess what has happened to them and whether or not they will ever come back home and in what condition.
Very often one hears about girls, mostly young, fourteen- to sixteen-year-olds, being brought to hospitals, girls who’ve been raped in a bestial manner. In a very cruel manner. I won’t describe it. Their physical condition—mental, at any rate—is terrible. It looks really bad for them. Everything on them has been torn apart. Sometimes to one big pulp. I shudder when I talk about it.
Olya, I’ll tell you something: after this video is uploaded and put online, thousands of Ukrainian “patriots” from across the country will again begin to bark, according to the mantra “Again that old tart told lies on the phone. Where are the facts? Where is the evidence? Where are the medical certificates?” What do you say to these people? To go to Mariupol and go to a particular hospital at a specific address? To check whether these girls are there or not? Should we perhaps send the stations, Channel 1+1 or ICTV there? Which one of our “patriotic” TV channels can still get emails? They should see them, conduct interviews with the parents of these poor little girls and the doctors who treat them.
Yes, they should look into it. But the question is whether our doctors are prepared to tell the truth. You know that those who do not agree with the regime are simply destroyed [killed].
Kidnappings have become common, even in broad daylight. The Nazis, armed with machine-guns randomly stop cars, buses or taxis. Those who they do not like, or the ones they suspect of co-operation with either the DPR or the troops of Novorossiya, get singled out. Near the airport, on the Volodarskaya Highway, there are warehouses with large cellars. I heard the story from a man I know personally. And he is not alone. They were detained there. And girls. The girls were also young. They don’t grab any women over thirty, they prefer “young meat”, as they say.
I know the story of a prostitute. She was a real prostitute who is now dead. She worked the bars and was a whore. I do not condemn her, because everyone can live the way they want. She spent a week with the Nazi Guards. Within that week she was forced to have sex with a hundred men. The hundred men treated her so brutally, she was beaten black and blue, she had to crawl back home. She’d been beaten so badly that she had to crawl back home on her hands and knees.
After three days, she died due to ruptured internal organs and internal bleeding. Well, she was HIV positive. At her own request, when she was picked up at the bus stop, she said: «Guys, let’s at least use condoms. I understand what you want, I’m not refusing…” She was told “What’s that, you Donbass scum? You don’t want a child from us normal guys?” And that was that…
The people, the men who were in captivity, they made it out only because they had savings. Many of them spent a month in the hospital after their release. They have damaged kidneys from being beaten and tortured. Women are not released. A friend of mine has now been missing for four months. It’s like she doesn’t exist. Of course, I cherish the hope that she may still be alive, but, as you surely understand, it’s not very likely.
And the “comrades” who do not believe all this should go there and see by themselves what their sons and husbands are doing. They take things, steal, plunder, beat, harass. They barge into shops and schools with machine-guns.
In the school number 62 of Mariupol—a sports school—they have established their headquarters. At the centre of the “Left Bank” district is a checkpoint. In the Taganrogskaya Street—a residential area—there is another checkpoint. Also in the Vostochniy district, which has been through a lot, there is a huge checkpoint.
And this is how it looks all over the city—the whole city! They don’t care that people are protesting against the construction of checkpoints in residential neighbourhoods. The don’t care, they don’t give a damn! They say they “defend” us? As they said to my sister: “All of you, you Moskals, we’re going to exterminate you one way or another. You’re not humans, you’re scum…”
I understand: “Mariupol is either Ukrainian or depopulated.” I know that, we’re getting used to it. What do you think, when is the Army of Novorossiya expected to enter Mariupol? What do your feelings tell you?
One can discuss this question a lot. I want to say only one thing: we believe and we are waiting for them and we will support them. Not only men but also women, teenagers, young and old. Many believe, wait and hope for the liberators. These are the real liberators who will save us from the yoke of the fascist Junta.
There is so much lawlessness, it is too much to bear.
Prices are so inflated! Pensioners, who rarely receive their pension, nowadays can’t even afford a loaf of bread. Parents with babies cannot afford to buy milk or food for their children, let alone nappies, which now cost hundreds of gryvnia. A bus ride now costs four gryvnia [0.23 Euro -ed.]. Bread costs six gryvnia [0.35 Eur -ed.], sugar eleven gryvnia [0.63 Eur -ed.]. What else can I say?
They [Nazi Guards] claim to fight against Russia. What Russia? I was born in the Novoazovsk district. I’ve lived for seven years in Mariupol, but I go to my home town for visits. How can there be talk of Russia? My God, when I hear the bullshit they say, I have only one wish, to issue each of them a gun and say: “Shoot yourself, you arsehole, just shoot yourself!” It’s terrible!
I thank you, Olga, that you had the courage to be part of our mission and for being live with us to tell us from occupied Mariupol about what’s really happening there. I wish you patience and the faith that very soon we shall liberate the city, and then the people will be able to live a normal life again and won’t any longer be treated like cattle, won’t any longer be robbed or raped. Thank you again! Good luck and many greetings to my fellow countrymen!
I thank you!
Dear friends, that was Olga, from Mariupol. You heard it yourselves.
And now I suggest to Ukrainian journalists that they get up, grab their jackets, get into a car, take along their cameras and drive down to Mariupol! If you aren’t shitting your pants, record everything and show it to the whole of Ukraine, how the “Liberators” behave, “Liberators” for whom the entire country now collects money, money for this “Army”. You, Ukrainians, are now raising money for murderers. You collect money to help them fight in comfort and warmth, while they’re killing their fellow citizens, robbing, and behaving like animals. At least you should try not to be animals! Show the Ukrainian Army the middle finger. Say: “We will not help rapists and murderers!”
Here we go … http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30064374
Basically the BBC Spin sounds more like a very weak but effective attempt to discredit this kind of report in the public mind ….. ” However, the Romanian expert believes that it was not a Ukrainian Su-25, as the plane could not reach the altitude of 10,300 meters and strike the Boeing due to the poor level of training of Ukrainian flight personnel and technical imperfection of old Su-25. Vasilescu indicates that radars show Su-25 identically to MiG-29 fighter jet, as the planes have identical reflective surface area. “The altitude limit for MiG-29 is 18,013 meters, so the height, at which the Malaysian plane was flying – 10,300 meters – was easy to achieve.” “The Su-25 does not have enough acceleration due to its maximum speed of 975 kilometers per hour, so it can not catch up with a Boeing-777, and follow it at a distance of 58 kilometers at a speed of 900 kilometers per hour and at an altitude of ten thousand meters, keeping the velocity of about 200-300 meters per second, to attack it from on-board weapons. A Mig-29 has two high thrust engines, allowing it to develop the speed of 2000 kilometers per hour. The fleet of the Ukrainian Air Force has fighter aircraft MiG-29 that are capable of intercepting Boeing-777. The fighters are based near Kiev and in Ivano-Frankivsk,” the expert concludes.
Vasilescu added that MiG-29 of the Ukrainian army are armed with GSh-301, 30 millimeter gun, with a rate of 1,500 rounds per minute. The gun was loaded with 150 shells containing tungsten alloy. “These shells go through targets, leaving traces of perfectly circular shape. They do not explode inside the cockpit, they are not incendiary, but can kill the crew and destroy the cockpit, which can be seen in the presence of holes with their edges opening outside on the opposite wall. ” …http://english.pravda.ru/world/ussr/13-08-2014/128268-boeing_crash_ukraine-0/
The plane logo issue can easily explained if it is a mirror image.
I don’t have the resolution/equipment but suggest copy and paste into MSPaint (or whatever) and do a ‘rotate flip horizontal’ and then see what it looks like.
I found Carlos the air traffic controller very credible. He was interviewed by the ultra-reliable globalresearch.ca. By that time he had been threatened. He lost is job of 5 years in Ukrine, was deported. He may have been threatened in his home country of Spain, too, because Spain had denied his existence until the interview. His tweets of what was occurring in the control tower after MH17 was shot down I found convincing. If you search Carlos Air traffic controller within the globalresearch.ca site you will find all this info.
DAVIDIUS: The photo you haven’t seen is at http://en.itar-tass.com/world/759835
For a discussion of what happened to MH17 I recommend http://www.globalresearch.ca/analysis-of-the-reasons-for-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-report-of-the-russian-union-of-engineers/5412216
Putin weathered the MH17 crap well, imo.
And now he’s on the return trip. Hope the koala hugging was not a viral infection opportunity for little Tony ‘five-eyes’ Abbott.
—-
. . . .
The Russian president was the first leader to depart the summit, before the release of the official communique, saying he had a long flight to Russia and wanted to get some sleep.
“We need nine hours to fly from here to Vladivostok and another nine hours from Vladivostok to Moscow,” he said.
“Then we need to get home and return to work on Monday. There’s a need to sleep at least four to five hours.”
He did, however, thank Prime Minister Tony Abbott for hosting the event and attended the annual forum’s wrap-up lunch, praising the summit’s “constructive atmosphere”, despite the pressure put on him by Western leaders over the Ukraine crisis.
Speaking at a press conference broadcast on Russian television, Mr Putin said “some of our views do not coincide, but the discussions were complete, constructive and very helpful”. …
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-16/putin-says-there-is-a-good-chance-of-a-ukraine-resolution/5895244
In my view, these new photos are not fakes but parody of all American satellite “photos” of BUKs and tank collumns invading Ukraine. Something like “Hey guys, everybody may create stupid fake, stop boring and bothering with it!”. Paradoxically, if this photo from Russian satellite was authentic, it would convict Russia of this crime – who else (than Russia) could have known that something interesting take place in the area – worthy of sending satellite there and taking of pictures?!
One factoid hasn’t been mentioned. Since the photo is an obvious fake, why would they feel the need to do this now? Perhaps it is because the evidence for a Ukrainian Air Force shoot-down is getting stronger, and they want to debunk this idea before it gains any more credence. Why else would they put out this fake now?
Secondly, if the Su-25/27/MIG was shooting 30mm tungsten shells, would it be that hard to find one and conclusively prove the fighter jet theory? Wouldn’t some of these shells get stopped going through the cockpit by some dense metal (or body)? Who is looking for these? Whoever is giving the $30M reward might suggest finding these shells would be conclusive proof. If they shot 1500 rounds/min (25 rounds/sec) wouldn’t there be lots of these at the crash scene.
16/11/2014
why is putin pussyfooting around?
why does he tolerate non entity like canada austrlia and england these nations are nothing-jsut side kick of usa.
putin has to man up and kick these peoples a–s.
so usa /uk can invade iraq 3 times, can invade syria many times, can invade libya and afgansitan with impunity but russia cannot help the resistance fighters in her neighboiur where the democratically elected leader was deposed by anglos controlled and plotted coupe!
by leaving the g-20 meeting early putin has shown another stupidity in international standing of Russia- so that her enemies will make fun that he fled .
putin has done so much damage to Russian prestige in last 6 months all because many people in Russia went on supporting his stupid pandering to anglos west despite anglos declaring war on russia.
did Putin really have to go to g-20?
if yes then he should have been more aggressive rather than justifying to no bodies like austrlaia, Canada and english PMs.
The Russians have advanced the theory that MH-17 was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter, with evidence, in a July 21 press conference held by Lt.-Gen. Andrey Kartopolov of the Ministry of Defense. Links to Yahoo and RT coverage:
http://on.rt.com/2tgzji
http://news.yahoo.com/photos/lieutenant-general-andrey-kartopolov-head-main-operational-department-photo-152950242.html
-Ingrid-
When I first read that the Russian Union of Engineers approved the satellite photo to be true, I thought the story was true. Because the first report from August 8 was well researched. After reading several comments on the satellite photo I began to have doubts, especially because the fighter plane came from the other side then where the bullets in the cockpit were. Then I took a closer look at the website of the Russian Union of Engineers and saw this was an NGO. Further reading confirmed (to me) it is indeed a fifth comumn enterprise, involved as well in high level politics as in regional and city affairs. Unfortunately I could not find out who is financing them.
@Martin Bochnig said,16 November, 2014 02:00,
I honestly do not see what role they might have played Carlos, the Spanish air traffic controller, in this whole MH17. When I saw the reference made by Alexander Mercouris (where he is going with this?) I have been astounded.
As Anonymous points out, he was already reporting from months ago, I followed him on his twitter for a while and still many well-known journalists, both Spanish and Russian. The Saker himself posted his twitter as source of information.
I have to also say that at times I found it something implausible that he was writing on his twitter while the control tower was occupied by Ukrainian military. Last time, when the MH17 issue, he said they were confiscating their phones. On the other hand, received death threats from some maidanites residents in Spain, that I see in his twitter by myself.
I hope that in the end everything is not resolved blaming a Spanish, that this, the figure of the scapegoat, also have seen many times yet, in fact, between powers “not step on the hose”.
After all, Spain, so punished, and, what’s more slams?. As they say here, “leña al mono que es de goma”.
I just got angry, and I’ve decided that today I will not use as many hours as I usually in the blog.
As I feel better than yesterday, I’m going to skate before it rains.
You, ladies and gentlemen, have a good day!
WRT, ‘Carlos’, I have long believed him to be a created persona designed to provide certain kinds of information while concealing the real identity of the provider-
From my recollection, the info he shared was good and timely. He seemed a reliable source, but the person, or persons, behind the online identity are not named Carlos, are not Spanish and probably not air traffic controllers.
The Tweets from the Carlos persona, at the time of the shootdown were accurate and timely where they were verifiable with later knowledge and so the items not verified by later knowledge are, in my opinion, very credible.
Probably a fake but on a true background……it’s a real puzzle game with some wrong pieces…launched by CIA for at least 2 reasons: to discredit the russians and to entangle the options. I will suggest (if not allready knowed) the article of the Romanian military expert, pilot and former deputy commander of Otopeni military airport here http://ukrainereferendum.blogspot.ro/2014/08/romanian-military-expert-pilot-mh17.html
Again – assuming it is a fake – how come the Daily Mail and Daily Express in the UK ran the story more or less straight?
There is no simple explanation for that.
Maybe Putin and Russia can rest easy for a while. Theirs is for a long term. But in Spain we are holding elections on 2015. Attacks Spain have only just begun. We hope mainly from the cities and centers of power “markets” (Wall Street, City of London …). We are aiming to beat ….. markets are starting to get nervous……
Why? See for yourself:
http://www.comiendotierra.es/2014/11/11/entrevista-en-un-nuevo-tiempo-con-juan-carlos-monedero/
Well this MH17 saga “FAKE’ will now have legs to run. Reuters News Service has the ball…reports in detail:
Russian TV channel says photo shows MH17 shot down by fighter jet
(Reuters) – Russian state-controlled TV has broadcast what it called “sensational” photographs, which it said supported Moscow’s theory that Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet.
Several commentators who have examined the photographs have described them as forgeries, however.[.]
The photographs were aired on a Friday evening news show “Odnako”, which said they had been sent to a Russian expert by a man called George Bilt, who had presented himself as a graduate from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT).
“We have at our disposal sensational photographs presumably made by a foreign spy satellite in the last seconds of the Malaysian Boeing’s flight over Ukraine,” Channel One presenter Dmitry Borisov said.
“The pictures support that version which has hardly been heard in the West.”
Since being aired by Channel One, the photographs have met with widespread scepticism. [.]
= = = = = =
Francois Hollande is reported to have said: Ukraine Crisis should not influence relations between France, Russia
So, Francois, do hurry to deliver the Mistral ship and avoid a $3 bln penalty
= = = = = =
Porky cuts loose Novorussia. The Minsk Protocol is effectively dead.
Mr. Putin has a serious decision ahead. Given Porky’s Saturday decree in violation of humanitarian principles and Minsk accord, Russia, as a neighbor, will see its responsibility increase-to take on the abandoned baby – Novorussia.
My post in the other thread cites Reuters on Porky’s decree; Ukraine to close state offices, bank services in rebel-held east
The rebels, in turn, say Ukraine violated the deal by moving to revoke a law granting the regions autonomy, putting an already fragile ceasefire in doubt.
A decree posted on the president’s website said all state companies, institutions and organizations should end their work within a week and “evacuate workers, with their permission, (and) where possible remove property and documents”.
(emphasis added)
Mr. Putin said The blockade of E. Ukraine a big mistake
Ukraine’s decision to sever economic ties with rebel-held areas and stop funding local public services is a big mistake which does not help the locals gain trust in Kiev, Russian President Vladimir Putin told journalists at the G20 summit.
Some comments above already allude to the following. The simple geometry of similar triangles indicates the photographs are fakes. The ratio of the wing span dimension to the intercepted background landscape dimension (many kilometers) equals the ratio of the viewpoint distance above the aircraft to the viewpoint height above ground. A satellite viewpoint is much too high for the relative dimensions shown and a reconnaissance aircraft flying above with the right viewpoint for the photographs would be extremely unlikely. I don’t know who the “MIT expert” was, but a 10th grade geometry student could figure this out.
Alaxander,
I can back up the comments above about Carlos not being a fake as I too was following his twitter comments beforehand and Penelope thanks for the globalresearch reference will follow up.
Very poor form for the Russian TV channel to be sucked in by this disinformation. George Bilt (according to reddit) isn’t listed at MIT, so at the very least they could have checked sources.
Have you followed up the Lee/Leo Wanta story at all??
http://www.globalresearch.ca/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/5391888
Anyone familiar with the USA false flag procedures would acknowledge that what the USA and the sleazy, untrustworthy MSM did in the immediate aftermath of the downing of Flight 17 and see the commotion for what it was; an attempt to frame the separatists and also Russia.
The lies went on nonstop for days with no proof offered, like the fraudulent ‘conversation’ allegedly recorded between some Russian general and a separatist leader. That got outed within a few days, leaving the US spokeswomen hinting at some revelations to come, but for now, ‘trust us, would we lie to you’ as a way to make and open and shut case.
If you check the ‘paper of record,’ the NYT, you’ll see it shut up several weeks after the psyops and hasn’t uttered a word since about Flight 17, like most MSM outlets, but at first, when they were spinning the Big Lie, they couldn’t shut up about how Russia was the one and Vlad some kind of Hitler reincarnation.
Add in the shelling of the crash site by Kiev to prevent any investigation of the wreckage and it all points toward a USA-Kiev False Flag to demonize Russia and Vlad.
The NWO goons in DC and London want the Crimea badly, and will stop at nothing to steal that prime peace of real estate, even if it involves shooting down a jetliner.
BTW, has anyone heard the Kiev Tower radio traffic and can anyone explain why Flight 17 was rerouted that day to fly 100 or so km further South, putting it right over the danger zone?
re: intelligence in the air
sometimes we just need a chortle or two- evidently someone with sophisticated equipment ( we won’t say who) is shooting down the OSCE’s recon drones in E Ukraine–oh, complain, complain!
http://stratrisks.com/geostrat/21586
@ MK Ngoyo – it is hard not to become distracted with all of the noise going around about who shot down the plane, but in order for it not to have been shot down by a fighter jet, all of the eyewitnesses on the withdrawn BBC report must be lying. Not mistaken but lying. The old woman who broke down when she described seeing bodies fall from the sky must have been acting. Further, if it were a BUK, those who saw the vapor trail and heard the massive boom from its launch must be in hiding, because not a single eyewitness has so stated. Yes, these latest photos may be a false flag of the shoot down which in itself was a false flag, but the evidence that is beyond dispute – that all of the eyewitnesses told the BBC they saw a fighter jet – has never been countered or opposed.
What happens in Spain is that there is a generation that no longer afraid.
So there are people like the air controller, Carlos, who is willing to risk his life and that of his family, or his job, to fight against fascism, from the very “pitch black”.
Others, with the comfort and security afforded them become heirs of those linked to power forever, can not say the same.
For those who can understand the Spanish language I leave this interesting conversation between the journalist and writer Gregorio Morán and Professor Juan Carlos Monedero. I guess they do not go unnoticed that the audience is mostly made up of young people. Once our eyes open, dropped the veil deployed by the architects of the “Transition” from Franco to this travesty of democracy that has brought us here, new generations are determined to recover the historical memory of their ancestors, their struggles and make the rupture that should have taken place after the death of Franco and had it not been because, as Gregorio Morán says, people were too gripped by fear (yes, of our Gulags; I mentioned once ( or twice ) that we have the largest number missing people after Cambodia. Even the former USSR we exceeded).
http://www.comiendotierra.es/2014/11/13/intelectuales-y-transicion-un-debate-entre-gregorio-moran-y-juan-carlos-monedero/
There might be some useful info in english from Ivanov Chairman of the Russian military Council here, but from October
http://slavyangrad.org/2014/10/10/statement-by-i-b-ivanov-chairman-of-the-russian-common-military-union/
probably people know though?
One good friend of mine, a pilot, told me once about a clever way of how to make some valuable statements look like a load of hogwash. For instance, you talk to someone who insists on the fact that the security services are spying on everyone via social networking, mobile devices etc and continues with something even more outrageous. They say, that same intelligence adds a sort of mind altering substance to jet fuel and this way its getting sprayed from high above, appr 10km up in the sky onto us humans, turning us into mindless zombies who would buy any crap as long as we are under influence of this drug. Sounds like utter garbage, obviously and this way dismisses the first part about spying, which, as Snowden has proven, is very relevant. But you think to yourself, if the guy believes all this rubbish about intoxicating people through jet vapour trails, the spying part automatically becomes same sort of rubbish. Identical story with the images, if the Russians ever step up with this weak photoshop attempt as a piece of evidence, from now on they will become known as indisputable liars. Or so hope those who shoved the pics to the Russian side.
@ Anonymous 16 November, 2014 04:15
Olga’s account is both heartbreaking and infuriating. Those poor girls and women, I cannot even begin to describe how angry I am.
The advance in Moriupol should not have been stopped. This is unforgivable! And I’m not blaming the NAF for not forging ahead; they had their hands tied up and their wings clipped. Hence: their anger at the now infamous Minsk agreements.
And we don’t even know what it’s happening in other areas like Odessa and other dissenting regions, what horrors are being visited upon those innocent people at the hands of these sadistic pieces of filth.
The Minsk agreements have been used to neutralized the NAF and beat Russia over the head with them, while the death/rape squads are free to run amok, to live out their most depraved fantasies.
EU’s Von Rompuy said at the G20: “Russia has still the opportunity to fulfill its Minsk agreements and chose the path of de-escalation, which could allow sanctions to be rolled back,” he said. “If it does not do so however, we are ready to consider additional action.”
(Never mind that Russia wasn’t a signatory to the agreement, merely a facilitator… [others would say: ‘warrantor,’ but quite frankly, that sounds even worse against the Russian case] )
While Obongo said: “If he [President Putin] continues down the path that he is on, violating international law, providing heavy arms to the separatists in Ukraine, violating an agreement that he agreed to just a few weeks ago, the Minsk agreement that would have lowered the temperature and the killing in the disputed areas, and providing us a pathway for a diplomatic resolution then, the isolation that Russia is currently experiencing will continue,” he said.
And waste of oxygen Camoron said, as reported by the Scotsman.com: “Cameron said the Russian president faced a choice between restoring relations with the rest of the world by observing the terms of September’s peace agreement in Minsk or risking further sanctions by continuing to destabilise Ukraine.”
Why are all the usual suspects insisting on the Minsk agreements, if the protocols – as some hypothesized – were such a genius chess move by the Russians?
Nah, ah!
The Russians got beaten at their own game. Same as they did to the US when they let slip a ’loophole’ on Assad giving up his chemical weapons, and Russia latched on it [arguably; rightfully so] to prevent an imminent attack on Syria.
That’s all water under a bridge now, even Obola is admitting; attacks on ISIS are on hold until they ‘deal‘ with Assad first.
The Russians were tricked into brokering a ceasefire [right before the storming of Mariupol, btw] only to find out now, they’ve been conned.
Yet, anybody with any sense could smell a rat from the very beginning. But alas! We’re Putin-bashers if we bring this up, apparently….
But hey, I’m sure those Mariupol young girls with irreparable physical and psychological damage will eventually see the short sightedness of their petty plight and will eventually get to ‘see the bigger picture’…instead of focusing so much on themselves /end sarcasm.
-TL2Q
Here’s the latest BBC propaganda -especially the loaded line at the end.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30073283
I feel sure that only parts of the wreckage that fit the script will be removed and any analysis will be superficial.
It should be obvious to everybody that within days if not hours of MH17 crashing, forensic analysis of the ‘projectiles’ and their propellant lodged in the bodies and wreckage would be available.
Chemical explosive residue, missile shrapnel, expanding rods,tungsten 30mm cannon shell fragments -all material not found in a Boeing 777 and readily available for retrieval and independent analysis by multiple labs.
As I have said before, that this was not done (or done covertly) is indicative of a massive cover-up. Speculation is easy but what are the real reasons?
Truth is sometimes stranger than either fiction or conspiracy theories.
As I understand, to get an idea about events that occurred many decades before many of us had use of reason, you should read all parties.
Thus, rightly considering essential reading the one recommended by our friend and host, The Saker, “Gulag Archipelago”, I also consider interesting, and dare I conclude that a must read, other sources on the same subject.
I leave a link to the comment of a book, in this case in Spanish, but maybe you can find the original work of Ella Rule, for Stalin Society, on that the book commented is based.
http://criticamarxista-leninista.blogspot.com.es/2012/12/las-purgas-del-pc-b-de-la-urss-en-la.html
Of coursethi was put into circulation as a fake to make fool of everybody who is queationing the Buk theory and highlights the air-to-air theory.
They knew that kiselovs and shusters and all the fools around will hop on it.
People think, please!
What you would do if you want to discredit your opponent?