by Tatzhit Mihailovich
By now, even Reuters broke the story about yet another MH17 shootdown theory. Why bother with the details?
In a word, because the Novaya Gazeta report is the ONLY completely consistent version from an unbiased source that we got so far.
Now, that shouldn’t be taken to mean that this thing is the indisputable truth.
Novaya Gazeta is generally Pro-Western, yes, and publishes multiple stories about Russian troops in Ukraine (most famous one translated here by myself), so this goes against NG’s usual bias – reporting can be considered honest.
However, it’s till a crappy newspaper (approximately at the level of UK’s “The Telegraph”), and a lot of NG’s reporting is simply bad and error-prone.
Moreover, the report itself, purportedly written by “Russian military experts”, appears to be compiled from publicly available sources and has no insider knowledge; in other words, it could be compiled by anyone with a good brain and a lot of time.
However, all of that is vindicated by ballistics evidence. Ballistics don’t lie, and here they paint a relatively clear picture.
Moreover, since all the sources used are publicly available, anyone can do the same work and come to the same conclusions. So let me explain their reasoning:
– Buk warheads throw fragments sideways.
This is because the chances of directly hitting a jet moving faster than a pistol bullet are slim; moreover, if that happens, it’s getting hit by a missile the size of a telegraph pole, anyway.
So the warheads are set up to explode when a target is in close proximity and to the side. Previously, the main “Buk impact” scenario was a launch from a rebel-held Snezhnoe, and damage was explained like so, seemingly corroborated by a large hole in the left side of the pilot’s cabin:
– However, there were serious problems with that version.
First off, no one in Snezhnoe seen or heard the launch. Many locals readily admit seeing a rebel Buk, which is visible from maybe a hundred yards in tight city streets, but not a single person has heard or seen the launch, which should be visible and audible for many miles around:
Something is not right – if the locals are lying, why would they admit seeing the launcher in the first place?
– From a ballistics standpoint, there is a lot of damage to left wing & engine, which should have been out of the way of the fragment stream. That can not be explained by colliding with pieces of the missile itself, as the damage clearly indicates multiple small fragments, i.e. main fragment stream.
Moreover, the close-up images of damage to the cab indicate that the fragments were traveling front to back, not left to right:
And the right side pilot’s window was found undamaged, whereas fragments coming from left side should have shattered it to tiny pieces (that is what the question mark in first picture signifies):
– Therefore, the fragments were flying along the axis of plane like so:
This means the missile didn’t come from the front, but from the side: as mentioned before, the direction of fragments is perpendicular to the direction of missile flight.
Based on the damage fields on the plane (refer to full report for pics) calculated angle of the missile was 72-75 degrees horizontal and 20-22 degrees vertical. Based on known course and location of the plane at the moment of hit, as well as BukM1 missile parameters, direction and distance to the launcher can be determined.
The purported location of the launcher is somewhere in the area of Zaroschenskoe.
What’s in Zaroschenskoe? Well, according to satellite images released by the Russian Ministry of Defense last summer, two Kiev government Buk M1 launchers.
Moreover, unlike Snezhnoe with its 50,000 population, Zaroschenskoe was a village of 350 people, mostly deserted during the fighting, so lack of witnesses of the launch is not surprising.
This is the main point of the report published in Novaya Gazeta.
The rest basically describes why they think it’s BukM1, which sensible people didn’t doubt much (yes, it is technically possible a government fighter like Mig-29 shot down MH17 with a long-range air-to-air missile, but it’s a rather far-fetched scenario).
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The only thing left to discuss is the reason for the shootdown. There are basically three hypotheses:
– Training/targeting accident, like 2001 shootdown of Israeli airliner by Ukrainian army under similar circumstances (missile was aimed at target drone, but some other radar was practicing and “painting” the airliner – missile picked the bigger target).
UAF was reportedly conducting anti-aircraft exercises at the time of MH17 shootdown. Basically, training consists of targeting something nearby (normally a civilian airliner as military jets don’t take kindly to being painted with target radar) and going through the launch sequence. The men have been doing this a lot with dummy missiles loaded – this is the first time in at least a decade they had live missiles.
Moreover, the usual failsafe measure would be to switch off the target radar so missile loses guidance – but that would only work if no other Buk is “painting” the target with radar. Considering that UAF had something like a regiment of Buks and multiple targeting stations in the area, plus the rebels may have been practicing as well, that safety measure likely would not work.
– False flag attack. This is going into conspiracy theory territory, but Zaroschenskoe at the time was “no man’s land”, and AA launchers from either side really had no business being there. Of course, they could be there for any number of reasons – ambushing Russian planes at close range, lost their way, etc. – but one reason could be to hit a civilian plane over the rebel hub of Snezhnoe.
– Rebel mistake.
Previously this seemed the most logical, as the shootdown area was heavily bombed at the time and rebels were doing their best to shoot down the attack planes, but ballistics in the NG report look convincing.
Still, it’s possible the rebels had another launcher we don’t know about, somewhere to the side of MH17.
In that case, we can remember that many locals claim they saw a government ground attack plane at the time of MH17 shootdown; while it’s unlikely a SU25 plane could shoot down MH17, someone trying to target it could target MH17 instead. Even if the targeting was correct, if government Buks were training and painting MH17, the missile would very likely pick the larger target.
– So, who’s to blame for the deaths? In all scenarios except False Flag, it’s the war itself, really. It’s not so crucial who was targeting what and who ended up pressing the button; more important is why was a civilian airliner sent though an area of heavy air-to-ground combat in the first place, one that clearly had multiple heavy anti-aircraft systems in the hands of inexperienced UAF conscripts and rebels (both sides announced they’re deploying Buk air defense systems to the area shortly before the tragedy).
And, once we start digging deeper and deeper into the issue, we’ll inevitably come back to the root causes of the war:
– Certain parties misguided belief that an elected government can be overthrown without consequence, and a hostile takeover of the sort that resulted in civil war in Georgia, Moldova, Kosovo, Cyprus, Texas, etc. would somehow be met without protest by the “pro-Russian” half of Ukraine.
– Their opponents misguided belief that the West would not support a government waging an depopulation campaign (yes, forcing a million people to flee the cities to Russia by deliberately shelling power and water stations is depopulation), that Russia will officially intervene on their behalf, or that fighting spirit and some smuggled weapons can beat a real army funded by IMF loans (well, that last one worked – for now – but the rebels have a far harder time replacing their losses).
But I digress, “who’s to blame for the war” is a topic for a separate discussion. Thank you for your time.
Hello All,
Liveleak is being difficult with their weird image hosting, so clicking the images (to make them larger and see the details) does not work at the moment.
However, it still works in the original article.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=21c_1430959206
NG has already confessed to the perpetration with the words “Forgive us, Netherlands” to back NATO propaganda.
http://issuu.com/novayagazeta/docs/novgaz-pdf__2014-081n?e=3174214/8720918
Is there another spelling for Zaroschenskoe so I can find it on google or yandex maps?
“Zaroshchens’ke” in Google Maps.
And here you can see a bit on how the military situation was at that time (take over the names from the video and put them in Google Maps to see clearly where what is)…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOBstNoins0
Dnipropetrovsk-based air traffic controller directed MH17 under missile fire – self-proclaimed Donetsk republic
http://rbth.com/news/2015/05/06/dnipropetrovsk-based_air_traffic_controller_directed_mh17_under_missile__45779.html
Zaroshchenske seems to be the transliteration.
Zaroshchenske seems to be a better transliteration.
Apparently, Google thinks its Zaroshchens’ke
I guess technically using the Ukrainian spelling is correct, but nobody in the area speaks Ukrainian.
Thanks all. Not long after posting I found the place by going to the original article
Two incorrect statements in the article pretty much unravel their conclusions.
First, according to the general in charge of Russian air defense forces, the BUK missile does not throw fragments horizontally; instead, it climbs to an altitude slightly above the target, positions itself above the target and sends its shrapnel down at the target. This is to avoid the armor carried by many military vehicles.
Second, it is not, as claimed, difficult for an SU25 to shoot down an airliner. This meme was started by entities trying to blame the shootdown on rebels, and has been accepted unquestioned by many. They even got to the Wikepedia entry on SU25s and changed the fighter’s operational ceiling to make it seem impossible for the shootdown to have been accomplished by an SU25. While the aircraft was not designed for that purpose, it certainly can accomplish it, especially if the pilot is on supplementary oxygen, and much of the evidence that consists of the condition of parts of the downed airplane strongly support a shootdown by a 30mm cannon — the gun carried by the SU25.
1) If you read NG’s full report, the explosion was slightly above the target. Hence the entrance holes in cabin ceiling and exit holes in the cabin floor.
2) SU25 can technically fly that high, but nothing like that was visible on radar. Moreover, damage suggests attack from the front, which would be extremely difficult to pull off.
Finally, damage looks nothing like 30mm shells: yes, there are some round holes (as well as a ton that are not so round), but they are much too tightly clustered.
Simple physics: The aircraft is moving 250 m/sec, or thereabouts. Gh-30-2 cannon fires 50 rounds per sec. That means impacts will be 5m apart. That’s why modern aircraft cannons are 30mm, so that they down an enemy jet in 1-2 hits – because scoring more than that on a jet is virtually impossible.
Hi Tatzhit Mihailovich I saw that the usual NATO/Kiev trolls were all gloating a few weeks ago when the SU25’s designed allegedly came out and said it would be impossible for a Frogfoot to shoot down MH17. Considering the designer’s advanced age is it possible the ‘5th column’ circles in Moscow put out a statement in his name or put words in his mouth?
You said that a SU25 or Ukrainian jet was not seen on radar. Then why did the Russian Ministry of Defense say they detected one? It seems to me given the truly fanatical efforts Kiev and US government propagandists have put into discrediting any witnesses including those who spoke to the BBC within days of the disaster in the report the Beeb spiked suggest that perhaps there was a jet, even if it didn’t actually bring down MH17.
http://russia-insider.com/en/military_media_watch/2014/11/12/11-48-09am/mh17_witnesses_tell_bbc_they_saw_ukrainian_jet_bbc
Also I’ve noticed NATO media basically interviewing random experts who all agree the Russian MoD radar detection couldn’t possibly be true and all that exists on the screenshots the RuMoD presented on RT or from Rostov ATC were just debris descending to Earth. How exactly pieces of debris could be mistaken for a jet fighter is beyond me (the propagandists rely on the general public’s ignorance regarding ATC and dupe people into thinking that Rostov’s civilian radar would pick up a fighter aircraft over eastern Donbass).
http://russia-insider.com/en/2015/01/15/2428
Again, I was never wedded to either the air to air shootdown or BUK theory, though given the woeful state of the ‘eyewitnesses’ and fake missile trails and made up Reuters ‘confession’ from a witness who accused the wire service of lying, putting words in his mouth…I always leaned towards the air to air shootdown theory. Simply because if it were a rebel BUK the NSA/DIA/NRO could’ve easily leaked sat photos of the launcher driving back to Russia or at least the wreckage burning if not the launch itself taken by space based infrared sensors.
Moscow saying that the U.S. had a satellite directly overhead when MH17 went down to me suggests the Kremlin and RuMoD/GRU were daring the Americans to show their work. But they never did, putting forward Eliot the clown Higgins and SBU photoshopped pics instead. Kodakovsky the rebel who allegedly ‘confessed’ to ‘the separatists having a BUK’ said it was a non-operational trophy captured from the Ukrainian military, which would make sense because if you wanted to create a deterrent against the Ukrainian Air Force you’d tow the thing around and create phantom BUK sightings all over DNR/LNR held territory to scare the Ukie pilots.
Perhaps the way to reconcile these competing versions of MH17’s demise is that the UAF jet was a potential ‘clean up’ crew if the BUK somehow missed in a false flag? Although I can fully appreciate the case for a UAF screw up considering that Kiev had accused the Russian Air Force of shooting down its An-26 spy plane above MANPAD altitude just three days before MH17.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28299334
Note dear Aunt Beeb saying An-26 was hit with a missile ‘probably fired from Russia’ NOT DNR/LNR
Well said Sir. Any intelligent man will agree with your conclusion.
Surely the “simple physics” would be more about relative speeds. And while relative speeds would be very high in a dogfight with an enemy military plane, airliners don’t do a lot of sudden maneuvers. Coming to a fairly close course and speed match with an airliner should be trivial for a fighter plane. Then you’re in effect shooting at a nearly stationary target. So I don’t see why such a cannon couldn’t put plenty of holes relatively close.
Which isn’t to say I’m going to claim it was done by an SU-25, just that that particular piece of evidence doesn’t strike me as disqualifying it.
Theoretically you’re right, but in the case damage is to the front of the plane. Which means that a shooter would have to be on a head-on course, so in fact, relative speed would be _more_ than 250 m/s.
Also, SU25s top speed is slightly under MH17s cruise speed. It’s an armored ground pounder, not a fighter. But if we’re talking about planes, UAF did deploy Mig29 fighters to the area – no need to get hung up on very ill-suited SU25s.
The Su-25 is an ill suited mission for this task, but I recall seeing a show (I am sure it is still on utube) with a US pilot praising the Su-25. He mentions that stripped down the Su-25 can exceed mach 1. So I would imagine a S-25 lightly armed with a only a couple of air-air missiles could move much faster and climb higher than a typically configured Su-25. Maybe it wouldn’t go mach 1, but a lightly loaded Su-25 should be able to catch up to and match altitude with an airliner.
Why the Su-25 would be chosen for such a mission when much more suited aircraft are potentially available is beyond me.
First, according to the general in charge of Russian air defense forces, the BUK missile does not throw fragments horizontally; instead, it climbs to an altitude slightly above the target, positions itself above the target and sends its shrapnel down at the target. This is to avoid the armor carried by many military vehicles.
The BUK missile sends its fragments out in all directions in the way of a cone created by the forward momentum of the missile and the sideways force of the warhead blast. This is to maximize damage probability.
BUK missiles also climb way above the target and then drop down on them via gravity. The BUK engine burns out within 20 seconds, but total elapsed flight time can be up to a minute. For this reason, BUK is shot upwards on a ballistic trajectory. So to hit a target at 33,000 ft. at a range of 25 km, BUK would be shot upwards to around 45,000 ft. at a range of 5-10 km and then fall on top of the target by way of gravity and its forward momentum.
If you scroll down on this page you can see an actual ballistics page from a BUK manual.
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/a-detailed-description-of-the-buk-sa-11-which-could-have-shot-down-mh17/
Spot on
I think the su-25 scenario is the most plausible, Peter Haisenko, one german ex-lufthansa pilot, proves days after the crash the 30mm gunshots in the cockpit… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZx4tCqST_U
That Novaya Gazeta (Новая газета) is “an unbiased source” is hogwash par excellence. To start with, it is owned by none other than – the Judas Himself Mikhail Gorbachev, plus the shady oligarch Alexander Lebedev (who also owns the British paper The Independent (!), etc.). Next, recall the … ahem … Zionist Anna Politkovskaya – the notorious poison-pen of that very “unbiased source”, who was croaked for her treasonous activities “by person or persons unknown” to the utmost distress and sorrow of the entire West…
Saying that anything that emanates from that fifth column outlet should not be trusted, would be a gross understatement.
Indeed it was impossible not to laugh at “unbiased” being applied to NG. It is obviously and blatantly biased, more so than any other anti-Russian newspaper (including the likes of the Washington Post and the Economist magazine).
There might be some significance to NG trying to weasel up this little theory though: it sounds like the new western position might be something like “yeah, the UAF shot it down, but it was the rebel’s fault anyway because they had a radar that was on while gov’t troops were exercising”.
Dismissing the fighter plane scenario would be the obvious goal of this new theory, since the air-to-air shoot down would be 100% deliberate. Under the UAF Buk theory, they can at least claim it was an accident (or rebel’s sort-of fault for having a radar that was on).
I agree. The other key piece of evidence that remains hidden for no good reason, if you value the truth, is the pilots autopsy. No doubt this shows clear evidence of air to air machine gun fire and therefore it is not being released by the secret investigation. Anyway whoever heard of a secret investigation into an aircraft tragedy. That is evidence of who is responsible right there.
Totally agree. Spot on.
As I said in the foreword, this report goes against their usual bias, and can hence be considered “good evidence”. Much like a criminal admitting own crimes, for example.
C’mon…
We’ve noticed that the Independent has been relentlessly bashing the UK Independence Party this week ahead of the general elections in which UKIP was probably fraudulently held to just picking up two seats in the British Parliament. I wouldn’t trust them or Novaya Gazeta.
Last but not least could the 30 mm cannon fire that hit near the cockpit have been done AFTER MH17 crashed from a UAF BUK hit? Say by a SU25 swooping in to ‘inspect’ the wreckage?
This is one of the possible scenarios. A lot of witnesses saw other planes nearby. One said a plane “hung around” for a while before leaving, as MH17 was falling. .On this theory, the plane had to make sure, in case the BUK missed or didn’t do enough damage. He’d not have been aiming at the pilots so much, as for the control electronics bay under the cockpit…. this was not long after MH370 so everyone was aware a plane can fly on for hours with dead/disabled pilots, so it would make sense to otry disabling the auto-pilots by shooting up the avionics area.
I wonder if the western papers who usually parrot everything the Gazeta says and does so regularly, would run this?
See the Reuters piece – it focuses on blaming Russia and the rebels, calling them liars, and mentions, in passing, towards the end, that UAF may be involved.
Let’s see. A story is published by a well known, very hostile, western propaganda front whose main purpose is to promote the destabilisation of Russia through the promotion of false information designed to cause doubt and create divisions. But it is:
“In a word, because the Novaya Gazeta report is the ONLY completely consistent version from an unbiased source that we got so far.”
Believe that and have I got a deal on a bridge you wont be able to pass up, either. I was wondering how this zio-propaganda would make it over to this site.
i agree-this article should have been counter balanced by the author with reference to the weight of the professionalism of previous articles even here-Russian aviation analysis, the documentary by ex german pilot, later article re fighter jet etc…this article to me seems to say that just because what N G is consistently presenting this must be the truth, whereas previously Saker and others have been able to debunk Bellingcat stuff and references elsewheres that NATO is relying on social media as evidence for intelligence gathering as reported today is just as incredulous,and Dutch MH17 BUk articles which have also been consistent and insistent and persistent ,….
but no more valuable…
.and just as spurious …
it seems to use similar methods or reportage….quote “Moreover, since all the sources used are publicly available, anyone can do the same work and come to the same conclusions. So let me explain their reasoning:”…… and “Even if the targeting was correct, if government Buks were training and painting MH17, the missile would very likely pick the larger target..”-can military experts confirm that please or is this just a wishful conclusion? Please quote public sources too.
To post the article in order to prove a methodology of thinking -and conclude AFU did this act because there is an opportunity to do so , because simply now persons believe there are grounds to say AFU (and possibly AFN) had BUK , is disappointing for me, considering the other analysis’s available that to many posited the aircraft missile thesis..
If I have misunderstood the intention of the article, then I apologise and welcome a right of reply by the articles author to my comment, but that at this moment is how it seems to me.
Both sides announced that they had Buks in the area prior to the incident. The rebels later said theirs was non-functional, but they definitely did capture one.
@Tatzhit
I have read several articles where Ukraine stated that the captured BUKs were not operational therefore it had to be a Russian system.
To complicate things they have also several times stated that it was a BUK-M1 rather than just a BUK missile. I believe the BUK-M1 is only used in Ukraine and Russia has later models in service?
@ Tatzhit
A couple more questions.
How is the BUK missile guided? From a couple of your comments it seems the missile flies virtually in a straight line on an intersecting course. That would imply that they are guided most of the way from the ground and perhaps lock onto the target when close? I have seen videos of BUK missile launches which usually curve towards the target?
Second. Are there higher definition or larger sat pics 5 and 6 on the net? The two showing the launchers in the field on the 17th and the same position on the 18th.
1. Russia does have later models than BukM1 in service, however I assume they have some older complexes as well. Either way, they definitely have some in storage, so either side could have used em.
2. Online resources suggest the following for Buk guidance: missile guidance system is not sensitive enough for reliable target lock at ~30km, so missile is launched in direction of target with a pre-programmed firing solution (which assumes target travelling at constant speed and direction – google trans the quote below). When close to target, the missile locks onto the biggest radar-painted target it “sees” ahead and does course correction to hit it (so it targets by itself, but the target has to be illuminated with ground-based targeting radar for lockon).
[from BukM1 manual]
“Для обеспечения поражения цели на дальней границе зоны поражения в комплексе используется метод автономного наведения ракеты на цель на начальном участке траектории без радиолокац. контакта с целью.для реализации этого метода в состав ракеты включен бортовой вычислитель(БВ),в который до старта ракеты вводится полетное задание на траекторию .Полетное задание рассчитывается из условия равномерного и прямолинейного полета цели после пуска ракеты .”
3. Appears that no high-resolution versions of that image are available.
Online resources suggest the following for Buk guidance: missile guidance system is not sensitive enough for reliable target lock at ~30km, so missile is launched in direction of target with a pre-programmed firing solution (which assumes target travelling at constant speed and direction – google trans the quote below). When close to target, the missile locks onto the biggest radar-painted target it “sees” ahead and does course correction to hit it (so it targets by itself, but the target has to be illuminated with ground-based targeting radar for lockon).
Note the part I put in bold type above. Below a Yandex translation of the “[from BukM1 manual]” supposedly being quoted below that and used as reference:
“To ensure hitting the target on the far boundary of the affected area the system uses Autonomous homing missiles at the target at the initial part of the trajectory without radiologic. contact with the target.to implement this method in the composition of rockets included the airborne computer(BV),which until the launch of entered flight plan trajectory .The flight task is calculated from the condition of uniform rectilinear flight target after the missile launch .”
While the supposed reference material does mention the first part of what Mihailovich wrote, the portion I bolded above “When close to target, the missile locks onto the biggest radar-painted target it “sees” ahead and does course correction to hit it”, is not included in the source, as one can see. That’s not very honest.
“Even if the targeting was correct, if government Buks were training and painting MH17, the missile would very likely pick the larger target..”-can military experts confirm that please or is this just a wishful conclusion? Please quote public sources too.”
Correctiv also quoted some nameless faceless NATO analysts who said the BUK system is wildly undiscriminating once fired in terms of tracking on a target, and implying that a Russian crew manning a system provided to the NAF would be just as incompetent as their Ukrainian counterparts who accidentally shot down the Israel-bound airliner in 2001. I just don’t buy that for a minute. It’s always been part of the entire problem with Bellingcrap/Bellingcon’s ‘work’ in that they claim Russia’s 53rd Air Defense Brigade provided the BUK to the NAF, but the 53rd’s troops were apparently too incompetent not to cover the damned thing with a tarp or take it apart altogether to get it out of the DNR sight unseen after news spread within hours of the shoot down.
This is completely idiotic, even if one assumes for the sake of argument that the Russian crew misidentified an incoming airliner as some sort of Ukrainian Antonov cargo jet (since the turboprop driven Antonovs do not fly as high or as fast as a B777). If a Russian unit were guilty they would either immediately ask for orders on whether to scuttle their BUK launcher or more likely just cover it with camo tarp (standard issue for all Russian battlefield AD units) and wait for dark to drive it out of the area near Torez. There is no way in hell they would just put it on a white tractor trailer and drive it through town for all to see in broad daylight including the SBU’s alleged spies in the area.
Higgins aka the pudgy lord of NATO/US/UK social media and fake intel trolls is aware of all this, hell he tweeted out the Russia Insider article. He just doesn’t care, anymore than he gives a damn on being called an amateur who doesn’t know what he’s talking about by MIT Prof. Ted Postol and other actual experts or how many times he’s changed his evaluations of the Assad army’s free flight rockets ranges. I believe the Dutchman who posted his article here taking down the likely SBU photoshopped BUK smoke trail pics has also pointed out that between Reuters, Bellingcat and Correctiv there have been at least three ‘separatist BUK’ launch sites listed many miles from each other.
http://russia-insider.com/en/2015/01/15/2428
Since Higgins and the .gov paid army of trolls who support him cannot debate facts or logic, they stick with ridicule, or accuse YOU of being wedded to any particular theory. Or equate the Russian media speculation including the notorious and probably planted to discredit the Russians’ by the CIA et al photoshop of a SU27 firing on MH17 with the Ru MoD presentation. Note the RuMoD said there was a UAF jet near the plane when it went down, but they never explicitly accused Kiev of shooting it down with a plane and the junta and Western media simply denied everything and called it a ‘magical mystery jet’.
Eliot knows deep down his ‘evidence’ is crap and or there are numerous blog posts showing that the SBU has faked pics of their own BUKs as ‘the separatist BUK’. Each time he dances and comes up with some new line of BS to make people forget the contradictions, problems or outright falsehoods in his previous magic trick bits.
Initial guidance before the missile’s own seeker head locks on would have to be from a Kupola radar. The complete absence of which from Torez, that NSA would easily detect from sensors in eastern Ukraine or even on board the USS Vella Gulf, the AWACs over Poland, or an ELINT satelllite in low earth orbit zipping by, is pretty damning for the Eliot Higgins/NAF/Russia did it with a BUK theory.
Of course Higgins and his army of trolls all claim that this U.S. intel including space based infrared of the BUK’s launch (implied but never stated by anonymous’ intelligence sources’ in the week after the disaster) is being held back so as not to interfere with an active Dutch criminal investigation. Somehow the ICAO rules became a complete gag order that is a convenient excuse for the total absence of any non-social media U.S. intel being presented to the world: http://russia-insider.com/en/2015/01/15/2428
http://fortruss.blogspot.com/2015/05/us-rep-to-nato-gathers-most-intel-from.html
Ridicule is the best weapon against these frauds, and any US official idiotic enough to cite them from Psaki to the US Ambassador to NATO.
Anyway here’s more bits that discredit Higgins and expose all sorts of odd distortions and problems with the authenticity of his BUK pictures, including the ‘separatist BUK’ on the white tractor trailer whose wheels are simply too big and not parallel to the trailer bed to be real.
http://fakemh17photo.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-donetsk-buk-was-photoshopped-w-e.html?m=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErzcyHzIkbA
Plus this as a sort of coup de grace of embarassment for the pudgy young man…can you say some shame in the fact that the Dutch investigators wanted to talk to Graham W. Phillips who’d actually been there versus the NATO/US/UK propagandist who knows it all while sitting on his butt in Leicester, UK?
https://twitter.com/EIiotHiggins/status/560237313327116289
@ JJ
“…if government Buks were training and painting MH17, the missile would very likely pick the larger target…..”
The missile only has a radar receiver. It picks up the target by the scatter/return from radar illuminating it from the ground. If only one thing is painted, it would go for that. If two items are illuminated, it would get a better signal from the larger one, and go for that (if they’re in the same direction of course).
This is what they never admitted to with TWA800 in 1996; a Navy training “decoy” target is heaps smaller than a Boeing 747.
=======
I think Tatzhit’s intention was to go over and double check a new article’s suppositions and methodology..
The article’s intentions? most likely to muddy the waters about the accuracy/consistency of Russian analyses, coming right on top of DPR announcing they captured maps showing Ukrainian BUK locations going back to June.
What many reports have worked on is trying to show where the shot had to come from. This narrows down where the BUK could have been, which might lead to knowing who must have had it. The Ukie Plane theories short-circuit this problem and outright attribute it to Ukraine.
Tatzhit’ dismisses the plane theory (he doesn’t trust the witnesses) but the presence of Ukie planes doesn’t mean it HAD to be them doing the shooting.
Agreed. It took all this time to come up with a piece of useless crap as evidence and solution.
The “facts” are getting to be as ludicrous as Dealy Plaza, Nov. 22, 1963.
Where’s the Ukrainian watermelons exploding in this report like they served up to show us how JKF’s head went backward when it was shot from the rear? First time ever in ballistic history!
Get out the Magic Bullet. Now we have the magic BUK.
This is all nonsense.
I want radar, communications with Tower and satellite photography. You can keep the rest of the sh*t. This is the eighth or tenth serving of crap.
I’m with you BOT TAK.
Exactly.
Its a safe bet no radar, coms, sat imagery, electronic surveillance from Sea Breeze, autopsy report, or projectile analysis will ever be seen by the public.
Forgot to put my name on the no radar no coms comment.
Larchmonter, I wouldn’t accuse Tatzhit Mihailovich of planting any disinfo. I think he has done so much good work in translations and the like for the Saker that he deserves the benefit of the doubt, as he’s not a Johnny Come lately here by any stretch. Vigorous debate is important but the problem is that Western presstitutes and their fake evidence producers like Eliot Higgins try to pretend that knocking down theories presented in Russian media, primarily the SU-25 shootdown theory, automatically equates to exonerating Kiev. Also no matter where or how plausible the Ukrainian BUK locations were on July 16-17 and known to the Russian military these people will lie, deny Kiev’s own statements about an air to air shootdown of the An-26, and fanatically insist the NAF held the new BUK launch site when it was listed on Kiev’s own military maps as firmly controlled (of course the fact that the junta has often lied about the extent of its front lines can be used to maintain the fiction).
I never was wedded to the air to air shootdown theory, but given the paucity of actual, identifiable on camera BUK witnesses and the very dubious nature of Kiev’s SBU pics of their own BUKs presented as the ‘separatist’ model, I always leaned more towards the SU25 theory. Simply because the witnesses saying they saw Ukrainian fighter/s — but not specifying what type as Tatzhit points out — appeared much earlier on camera for the BBC than any supposed BUK story witnesses. It also didn’t help that the people poo pooing the air to air shootdown theory after the initial 24-48 hour news cycle of some mainstream media dutifully reporting it all have track records as NATO propagandists or at least typical Putin bashers. Of course these people spoke to the BBC Russian service reporter after the Ru MoD presentation but as coached fake witnesses they would certainly have to be ginned up in a hurry. And whereas the cloud deck according to Kiev trolls ‘proved’ absolutely that these people were lying, the inverse was never true for the supposed BUK trail witnesses who were never presented at a Kiev press conference with their real names, obviously under the junta’s protection beyond the reach of any ‘separatist’ retaliation.
At the end of the day, I remain completely mistrustful of the junta and 90% certain they did it, based on their track record of either screw ups involving SAMs or false flags. I don’t believe the analog systems of a BUK are subject to remote hacking by the CIA/NSA whomever, so either this was a junta screw up (entirely possible given the incompetence we’ve seen in the ‘ATO’ and piss poor training levels of SAM operators evident from the 2001 Tu-154 tragedy) or this was a false flag. In which case a Su-25 or MiG-29 whatever the jet may’ve been or two of them in tandem were there as ‘insurance’ to finish off the airliner before it crashed in Russia, so ideally it would plummet to earth in the southern cauldron area where the military situation for the junta was desperately in need of a ceasefire and escape clause via Western investigators and/or troops introduced to protect the crash site.
At the end of the day perhaps the only true role for the likes of Higgins, Galeotti, Bill Sweetman of Aviation Week and all the other MSM figures was to establish the false BUK = separatists/Russia vs. air to air shootdown = Ukraine disinfo dialectic. Since we know the bad guys often employ dialectics as one of their basic propaganda/psyop tools, this would not be too surprising.
However, I also have to admit I would not put it past Russia to hold back a bit of what it knows and exploit the Ukrainians downing this plane as leverage to get Porky to back off, and stay at Minsk 2 when he could’ve walked away irrespective of the military humiliations his incompetently led troops were already experiencing. The reasons why the U.S. would hold back what it pretends to have but doesn’t really have because the truth incriminates the junta would be obvious. The reasons why Russia would hold back SIGINT or ELINT of the UAF BUK Kupola emitting just two minutes before MH17 is struck, or why Moscow would allow the Dutch Safety Board to modify/fake parts of the FlightAware and flight path records (so that pissant Higgins can say the Ru MOD is lying rather than the Dutch), are much harder to understand.
Larchmonter is right. Only real deal intel should be accepted this point. By now so much has happened that any ‘new’ eyewitnesses or ‘smoking gun’ social media proof should be regarded as fake until proven otherwise by real intel and autopsy forensics on the victims.
I feel it is futile to keep pointing out the obvious.
Forensic analysis of the wreckage and autopsies would show immediately what weapon brought MH17 down.
A BUK has something like 5,000 pieces of shrapnel and the holes would show the unique shape of them and match their size. These or cannon shells/air-to-air missiles would also show fragments embedded that would with metallurgical/chemical analysis prove the types of metal and chemical traces of propellents/explosives.
All this was known within days at most. Why is everyone, both in Russia and the West, quiet about it, releasing only moronically obvious drivel such as MH17 was brought down by kinetic devices.
Why the silence?!
I had seen the unique cross shaped shrapnel exactly once in my searches. That seems definitive since there is not a single panel I have seen of MH17 that showed that damage pattern.
This seems like the clearest evidence it was not a BUK. I want to know if this is accurate as I think who shot the plane down makes a big difference in Asia if not the west proper.
Would somebody -anybody!- please acknowledge that forensic analysis of the wreckage and autopsies would show immediately what weapon brought MH17 down.Type and shape of shrapnel, explosive traces, tungsten smears etc.etc.
Either that or refute it -there is little or no possibility that there would be any embedded shrapnel/cannon shells or smears in MH17 or bodies of the unfortunate passengers/crew and infra-red spectroscopy, ultraviolet–visible spectroscopy, nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy, gas chomatography, mass spectrometers and quadrupole mass analysis etc.etc. would be therefore futile.
Someone! Anyone! Before I go blue in the face!
YES YES YES. Now BREATHE. More than 50 “high intensity objects” were found in the pilots and one passenger. Some weapons may have used identical parts but some weapons would be definitely eliminated.
Thank-you!
I think it a reasonable supposition that any innocent but associated party not involved in the shootdown, e.g. Russia, would have spirited away sufficient wreckage for analysis ASAP.
The next obvious question then is: Why has this immediately available information been censored -and by everyone?
My guesses would be:
– Either because it’s a BukM1 missile and both sides could have had launchers in range, so releasing the info would not resolve anything
– Or because it’s say R27 A2A missile, in which case the info is being suppressed
If this was planned by the Hegemon I’d have used a stealth bomber with a proximity fused fragmentation warhead air-to-air missile that would mimic a BUK preferably with BUK shrapnel.
I’d also ensure a BUK transporter with only 3 missiles was captured prior by the seperatists and have all the propaganda lined up and witnesses on hand etc. Since that staging never happened I’d discount this theory but the second theory of a fragmentation rather than expanding rods R27 fired by an SU-27 or equivalent has always had appeal as a plausible scenario. The SU-25 was there to either to confuse ground observers and/or to finish off MH17 at a lower altitude.
It still leaves many questions unanswered.
A few questions of mine though:
Do you know what shape of shrapnel the R-27 variants have and which type Ukraine posesses?
Are you implying that a Russian owned jet could have fired an R27 from as much as 60-70 kms away at some lower Ukrainian target and the missile for whatever reason locked on to MH17?
Is this why you think Russia is quiet on the subject? Or was it a private oligarch venture with say Israeli technology/expertise -they appear able to kill with impunity?
No, I’m implying a Ukrainian jet could have fired the R27.
Although I suppose technically a Russian one could too.
So, if then an R27 missile was fired by a Ukrainian jet at MH17 why would Russia want to keep quiet about that?
There’s something missing in the MH17 story regarding Russia. Russia lost the propaganda war on this one completely and unless continued sanctions against Russia allowed/precipitated something long term and positive internally (at a pyrrhic cost, no less) that was otherwise impossible to achieve I am at a loss to understand the silence.
Politics.
If it wasn’t deliberate, they certainly didn’t waste any time making use of it. All Russia’s fault, more sanctions.
While Kiev delayed the Internationale investigator team with excuses about the rebel’s viciousness, at a lower level the Emergency Services sent people in to help pick up the bodies (which the rebs then “took away at gunpoint”.) while everyone screams they’re disturbing the crime scene, meanwhile complaining they’re leaving the bodies to “riot and be eaten by wild animals” (John Kerry). Yeah lots of wild animals in sunflower fields in the middle of villages. Eventually the investigators came in with OSCE and they got shelled on the way in. So they left as fast as they could., They made 3 trips back for more things, the last one just last month.
There was no need for the usual aircraft safety investigation, as it plainly was not an aircraft fault. They concentrated on identifying and repatriating the bodies, leaking just enough of the ATC (but nothing of the voice recorder) to indicate there was nothing spoken to indicate who did it. .
It suited the USA to keep slamming Russia with it, so no hurry to investigate. The Netherlands got 120 tons of their gold back from the US as their payment for dragging things out. Secrecy and veto power contracts were signed to “avoid leaks that may jeopardize the investigation”. This was done as soon as the first plausible “Ukraine did it” scenario was published.
It’s absolutely sure they’ve analysed the shrapnel found in the pilots. They are now probably spending their time finding some matching missile that Ukraine can say they didn’t have (ever or recently or in working condition) Maybe they’ll settle for one that could have been anybody’s, which saves them having to look at which brigade or individual pushed the button.
If it has to be admitted that it was Ukraine…. they can always say the button pusher is already dead and it was an accident. Or if ordered, then whoever ordered it is also dead. They have some 15,000 dead to choose from. If it was a Russia-only missile, they’ll never prove whether it was Donbass Russians or Russia Russians who pushed the button. So no satisfaction from that, either.
Meanwhile sanctions and threats of war can continue unabated.
If it turns out to be air to air? well that can’t be accidental. That is then a can of worms. A very small number of possible pilots, and maybe not a local (first rumour said Polish on USA passport, second rumour said Ukrainian who got some bravery medal 2 days later). They can pay off or kill off anybody, so no legal avenue will catch them.
It would take an unlikely change of Government, with SBU records not destroyed, to ever find out who ordered it, if it was ordered. .And then again, they might be long gone, to a grave or to Cyprus etc. At most some future Ukrainian government may pay out some small compensation, having been sued as responsible for not closing the air space completely.
In 20 years or so, which I won’t get to see, someone will come out with the real story. Most likely in writing, posthumously.
There’s a lot of problems in Ukraine which death seems to solve most easily. This is just one of them.
This article doesn’t belong on this site. It is laced with propaganda memes e.g.: (sensible people didn’t doubt…)and lacks arguments to back up its conclusions.
e.g.:
(yes, it is technically possible a government fighter like Mig-29 shot down MH17 with a long-range air-to-air missile, but it’s a rather far-fetched scenario).
What is far-fetched? Fighter aircraft were heard and seen there by many on the ground and they are designed to shoot down aircraft with missiles/cannon. What on earth is far-fetched????
1) No fighter was visible on radar prior to plane being hit (something was seen afterward, but could have been MH17 debris).
2) Yes, technically a plane can fly below radar height and launch a long range radar-guided missile (i.e. R27) at MH17, but that’s a rather hard maneuver to pull off
3) The plane locals claimed to see was SU-25, which has no long-range missiles (see above about the cannon shootdown “theory”)
4) Fragment damage seems to be more consistent with Buk shrapnel than elongated A2A warhead rods
So can we completely rule it out? No. Is it unlikely? Yes.
SanctuaryOne:
What is far-fetched? Fighter aircraft were heard and seen there by many on the ground and they are designed to shoot down aircraft with missiles/cannon. What on earth is far-fetched????
Far-fetched because no fighter airplane yet has made a passenger jet disintegrate in midair.
El Al 402, Libyan Arab 114, KAL 902 and KAL 007 all kept flying after being shot with canon fire and AA missiles. Radio contact with the ground continued, and the flights continued, sometimes as long as 45 minutes.
On the other hand, Iran Air 655 and Siberian Air 1812 both suffered immediate and catastrophic failure after being hit by large SAM’s. Radio contact immediately ceased. Just like MH17.
KAL902 (1978) had minimal structural damage (short piece of wingtip broken) and landed (on ice). The others all crashed, with varying degrees of inoperable control surfaces. KAL997 in 1982 was the last civilian airliner in the world to be shot down by fighters; all the rest since have been with surface to air armaments of various types.
The El Al broke up around 2000 feet and crashed in flames… the attackers were shooting to kill. The Libyan tried to land, but crashed and burned, with a few survivors. The attackers were deliberately aiming at the control surfaces, not the fuselage. THAT is how most military planes shot by others end up crashing too, not because the pilot is killed (actually they often bail out). .
MH17 started to break up because of the decompression, from being hit on the fuselage. With lesser fuselage damage it may have kept flying for a while, but the left wing lost a big section too, so it would not have been exactly level flight. Because the avionics bay (all the computers, under the cockpit) was so shot up, it was going to be impossible to control even if the pilots had been uninjured and had been able to get their oxygen masks on immediately. I don’t think killing the pilots was deliberate or necessary; with the avionics gone all they could have done was say goodbye.
So…. cannon fire is usually aimed at control surfaces (flaps, rudder etc); air to air missile, if heat seeking, will try to hit the engines; proximity fuse ones will get anything’ aiming at a hulking big fuselage to cause decompression would be a better plan than aiming at the much smaller area of engines. Trying to kill the pilots is useless with any weapon; going for the avionics is good.
Kat Kan
So…. cannon fire is usually aimed at control surfaces (flaps, rudder etc);
In air to air combat one cant aim at specific parts unless the opponent is a lumbering air liner making zero maneuvers. Fighters engaged in combat simply aim to hit the other aircraft.
air to air missile, if heat seeking, will try to hit the engines;
Heat seekers use the engine heat to home in on the aircraft. A proximity fuse then explodes the warhead when the missile is a specified distance from the aircraft. The missiles don’t actually aim for the engines.
Andrew, even though you support my arguments, I’d like to point out that we can’t make solid conclusions from such a limited sample: yes, four airliners didn’t break up from A2A hits, but that does not mean a 5th would not. Explosions are weird and inconsistent lots of times. Remember, at Lockerbie a small bomb at an unfortunate location caused the plane to disintegrate in midair.
My rebuttals to the A2A shootdown theory were based more on the fact that the Russian MOD radar spotted no fighters next to MH17 prior to it going down, and the “contact” they saw afterward was much lower and slower.
Now, that still leaves the possibility that something like an R27 could have been launched by a SU27 or Mig29 from below radar coverage; in that case, I’m guessing the damage would look somewhat similar to a Buk because the warhead on those missiles is rather large.
Tatzhit:
I’d like to point out that we can’t make solid conclusions from such a limited sample
I am an engineer. I call it trend analysis. Of course new data points are always possible, but the ones that we have so far point in the opposite direction of such a conclusion, so the probability seems small that in this case we would see something different.
Especially because there are also other instances of shootdowns with other light systems like MANPADS and the Strela system and we all watched recent shootdowns of military craft over Donbass where the planes did not break up but crashed intact until impact.
Now, that still leaves the possibility that something like an R27 could have been launched by a SU27 or Mig29 from below radar coverage; in that case, I’m guessing the damage would look somewhat similar to a Buk
KAL007 was shot by two R8’s (40 kg warhead) and flew for 12 minutes. The R27 you suggest is a 39 kg warhead. I suggest it would have had a similar effect as on KAL 007.
KAL007 was shot by two R8’s (40 kg warhead) and flew for 12 minutes.
That is actually a form of deceptive debate. Andrew obviously knows the missiles that damaged KAL 007 exploded well behind the aircraft. While the Soviet fighter pilot thought they took off sections of airframe, the ICAO 1993 report said evidence indicated they exploded 50 metres to the rear of the aircraft and that the airframe was essentially intact. The damage was internal, to control mechanics of the aircraft. This is even mentioned in wikipedia, Andrew’s main source for his “expert” opinions. At such a distance, it is amazing that such a warhead was able to damage the aircraft as much as it did. The pilots did not mention they were under attack in the subsequent radio messages, nor among each other from the flight recorder data. The indication is they did not even realise the aircraft had been attacked, but thought it was suffering from mechanical failure. Andrew conveniently ignored this because it is not consistent with the propaganda meme he is pushing.
What andrew is doing with these lines about comparing airliners downed by SA missiles and aircraft attack is comparing apples to oranges. It’s a deliberate strawman argument. Each of the incidents was unique and not really comparable to the others. Different weapons, different circumstances involved in the sort of damage done. For example, the small AA missile that damaged KAL 902, took off a third of one of the wings, more air frame damage than the ICAO 1993 report indicates happened to KAL 007, with missiles equipped with warheads much larger. Yet KAL 902 managed to survive the attack, but KAL 007 didn’t. This shows that it’s not the size of the boom boom, but where the boom boom occurs, and the consequences, and this is essentially random chance. Not something
Using just 5-6 examples of widely divergent examples to to claim something is not just bad science, it’s totally dishonest on every level and betrays a pure propaganda motive.
BOT TAK:
That is actually a form of deceptive debate. … Andrew conveniently ignored this because it is not consistent with the propaganda meme he is pushing. …Using just 5-6 examples of widely divergent examples to to claim something is not just bad science, it’s totally dishonest on every level and betrays a pure propaganda motive.
What is it with you and ad hominems and impugned motives? Can’t you discuss anything without attacking the other person? And what propaganda am I pushing? The theory that Ukraine shot down MH17 with a BUK? That is propaganda? Because?
Yet KAL 902 managed to survive the attack, but KAL 007 didn’t.
KAL 007 also survived the attack. It flew for 12 minutes. MH17 did not survive the attack – it clearly was destroyed almost instantaneously and immediately began an uncontrolled crash descent in multiple pieces.
it’s not the size of the boom boom, but where the boom boom occurs, and the consequences, and this is essentially random chanceately began an uncontrolled descent to crash.
No, actually its an engineering demonstration of the robust nature of passenger and cargo plane hulls in the face of aerial combat attacks. Light AA missiles and cannon fire, MANPADS, and light SAM’s like the Strela tend to cripple the airframe, controls surfaces, engines, or instrumentation of a large or small plane and cause it to crash as an intact body structure. Large SAM’s cause aerial break-up and disintegration of the plane. MH17 suffered an aerial disintegration at impact, and its crash signature was like Siberian 1812 and Iran Air 655 (and TWA 800).
Agree
I agree ‘this article is laced with propaganda memes’. We need to ask – Who wrote this? & Why did they write it?
Alexander Downer (ex Foreign Affairs Minister in Oz) said in an 2014 interview
some pretty good advice – especially coming from a politician!
Uhh… I wrote it. It says “by Tatzhit Mihailovich” right at the beginning. The original report was published in Novaya Gazeta for reasons unknown, likely to gain ad revenue.
As for memes – see my response to OP.
Novaya Gazeta is owned by George Soros. Moscow Times, you know that paper that called for sanctions and war on Russia, is owned by some Western consortium from Finland.
Maybe Murder by Death http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_by_Death#Plot
So a ground missile (maybe not a buk) shot the jet while a fighter jet also shot a missile and another shot it down, setting off the concealed explosives n the plane, which was carrying some corpses from the HIV research project, and colliding with one of the fighters on the way down which resulted in the wreckage of the two planes being scattered across many miles.
But I don’t want to try to become an expert in planes and missiles and cannons to sort it all out, and am content to say it was the ‘Americons'” fault (good word used by Motorola in the museum video 3:26), because none of it would have happened without their terrorist imperialism. This is a case where consequentialism is applicable.
It’s all their fault, and MH17 is but a small part of the carnage and destruction. Thousands of people walking on the street, sitting in their houses, playing in their yards, or driving their cars are no less entitled to live than people flying in a plane.
Or millions of people in the Middle East, also victims of the Americons.
Let us not be distracted from what has been happening.
The shooting down of MH17 was used to cause EU to sanction Russia and seperate Europe from Russia. In turn helping to prolong the war.
Even if the shootdown was unplanned, a lot of world “leaders” have had to lie and cover up the investigation in their efforts to blame Russia. All of this just prolonging the war.
Peter, you said “The shooting down of MH17 was used to cause EU to sanction Russia. . . .”
I say, Or to give Euro-politicos cover to pass the sanctions, which they wanted to do but for reasons of internal politics couldn’t. Sometimes I just can’t stomach the idea that they are being pressured, when they appear to be so conniving.
Also, Ukraine troops were doing very badly on the ground just then– big cauldron, etc. Perhaps it was hoped this “event” could somehow alter that, make the freedom fighters let up on the Nazis.
Merkel and the frenchy I think were happy enough to go along with the coup, but I think the shootdown was pushing it a bit for them. They were keen to “steal” Ukraine off Russia, but I don’t think they wanted to seperate their econmies ect from Russia.
Abbott was in on it and most likely the Dutch.
In the couple of weeks between the shootdown and EU approving sanctions, Kerry and Abbott every time they spoke to the media, it was rebels desecrating bodies, looting, evidence getting destroyed, Russia and rebels hindering investigation, ect, ect.
21st July. New European Sanctions On Russia Over MH17 Seem Unlikely For Now
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/21/russia-sanctions-mh17_n_5605162.html
26th July. MH17: Could be five days before crash site open to investigators
Ukrainian parliament to vote to allow international investigators access to MH17 crash site.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2014/07/26/MH17-Could-be-five-days-before-crash-site-open-to-investigators/6391406424858/
30th July. U.S., EU hit Russia with more sanctions as Ukraine fighting continues
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/29/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html
31st July. Julie Bishop also urged the Batkivshchyna faction to support the draft law on the ratification of the agreement between Ukraine and Australia on sending Australians to Ukraine in connection with the crash of Malaysia Airlines flight 17 and the draft law on the ratification of the agreement between Ukraine and the Kingdom of the Netherlands on an international mission to provide security for the investigation that will provide the legal grounds for the international investigation into the catastrophe.
“The investigation must be independent and objective,” she said, adding that she will be in the Verkhovna Rada during the vote for this bill on Thursday, July 31.
http://www2.tymoshenko.ua/en/news-en/the-mh17-tragedy-can-not-be-forgiven/
31st July. Great news as Dutch-Aussie advance-party of experts have just made it on to #MH17 crash site. At last work begins to bring our people home.
— Julie Bishop (@JulieBishopMP) July 31, 2014
The Rada voted 324 – 32 in favour of allowing the international effort to access the site outside Donetsk even as war rages across ground where up to 100 bodies from the downed 747 are believed to be lying in the open.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-australian-dutch-team-of-investigators-reaches-crash-site-20140731-3cxav.html
It was around the 31st that a uki armoured column pushed up through, I think Torez and put a stop to the investigation. Sorry, can’t dig up the link. I was following the fighting at the time at this site https://vk.com/strelkov_info but a long way to scroll back to around 31/7/14
Just being a troll here, but did anyone go through the links in order? (how do you blow a raspberry on the net?)
I’m tired and yeah, you guessed it. Havin a whisky.
Wind up folks wind up. Surely my little blurb will have a response. Surely somebody on this independent, free thinking blog will knock holes in my links.?? mmmm
[ZAPPER: no bad language no abuse; jousting is ok, put down the glass]
Why did NG run this story?
I thought they claimed this was an official version being sent from Russia to the Dutch authorities and NG ran it because it disproved the fighter claims.
(This it self is an odd story – NG claim a private report not available anywhere else is propaganda.)
All a bit odd.
the Dutch team must have known what happened for about 6 or more months now.
Fragmentation particles go out perpendicular to the missile in the frame of reference of the missile, but since that is itself moving rapidly they form a cone whose axis is along the path of the missile. You then have to add to this the vector of motion of the aircraft, so the diagrams are seriously misleading.
Yep I noticed that too. Not sure of the exact missile speed but somewhere between Mach 2.5 and 3.
850 – 1020 m/sec. 2800 – 3350 ft/sec. About the speed of an average high powered rifle bullet. Not sure what the outward velocity of the shrapnel would be, but it wold seem that the shrapnel would be flying forwards and outwards covering a cone shaped area.
Fragments travel about Mach 7. Missile at that point glides by inertia at about Mach 1. Angular movement of plane relative to fragments is a lot less than Mach 1, since it’s flying at them. So yeah, the angle of spread isn’t 180, but close enough 160-140. The pics actually reflect that, and so do the launch location calculations.
A number of pictures in the link. Scroll down a bit there there are pics of the partial reconstruction of the cockpit. The paint is greyish or blackened in the area around the right hand pilots position. It looks very much like a large missile has exploded about the distance and angle from the cockpit as described in the article.
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/overview-of-damage-seen-on-mh17-debris/
The Peter Haisenko theory I don’t think is right. look carefully at the side panel and what appears to be exit holes is where projectiles have gone in at an angle. The first part of the holes are turned in and the rest has peeled out as the projectile punched through the skin. though a few holes look to be punched straight in rather than at an angle. This pic is high definition and blows up for fine detail
http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/1adc94a3bcfeb61c5a0f6a70670006b9.jpg
There was also a plane in the vicinity, according to both eye witnesses and Russian military.
The original BBC video report from the first day had eyewitness to a military with or very close to MH17 after it was hit. It was saved and put on youtube by somebody, as BBC edited out the eyewitness. I had it save but just found it has been deleted from youtube due to “multiple copyright infringements”
It is most likely still floating around on the net somewhere.
At the moment my thought is it was hit with a BUK- M1 – As stated by Anton Gerashshenko (Advisor to the Minister of Internal Affairs of Ukraine) within 2 hours of the crash. Very good detective work finding it was a BUK-M1 and that Russia had brought one of these (obsolete for Russia but current model for Ukraine) into Ukraine to shoot down a passenger plane.
The military aircraft, SU-25 or whatever was there for backup.
Looking at the pics of the reconstruction, MH17 at Mach 8.4 would have peeled open like a sardine can after a hit like that.
Conspiracy theories? Modus operandi for the US. Plans for Operation Northwoods were only declassified after 50 years as they had not been used. No doubt similar plans that have been use will never be declassified.
http://www.dc911truth.org/flyers/11-11-06-handouts/Operation%20Northwoods.pdf
Forgot to put this link up. Anton Gerashshenko’s face book page from 17th july 2014
https://www.facebook.com/anton.gerashchenko.7/posts/694787050608145?comment_id=695041673916016&offset=0&total_comments=582
Don’t forget ladies and gentlemen the @StateofUkraine twitter account which is probably an SBU disinfo site putting out that a Ukrainian SU25M1 had been shot down the day before, just hours before MH17 went down (this is referenced at the Russia Insider piece about the eyewitnesses to a Ukrainian jet that BBC frantically yanked).
Why did the UAF specify the variant of aircraft shot down, which would make it the most advanced and modernized Frogfoot in the UAF arsenal? The Su25M1 isn’t supposed to fly particularly faster or higher than the older versions but it has more advanced avionics which could include, contrary to Mihailovich, a limited capability to fire air to air missiles bigger than Adders (keep in mind that the SU25M1 was probably being marketed to Gaddafi and Assad’s air forces pre-2013 where some limited self-defense capability for a ground attack jet could be seen as a plus).
Seems to me somebody knew something. There was a UAF jet, MH17 pieces do not levitate or climb before it’s destroyed, and Moscow perhaps most maddeningly Moscow keeps holding back part of what it knows to see if it can catch the U.S./NATO and MSM perhaps in a big lie that it can then expose as a hoax. But it seems to me it’s all too late for that and I for one increasingly find it hard to believe Moscow can extract any blackmail concessions out of the junta with what it knows.
@ Byzantium
I’ll run my thoughts past you. Air to air missiles – one large missile, I haven’t been able to find specs for any air to air that use shrapnel, also two air to air hitting in the same spot? The Air to air that I have found use either expanding rod or loose rod. Some may have a small amount of shrapnel as well.
Also, to set up a large long range type air to on a SU-25 would take a lot of work and a lot of people in the know.
SAM? From an earlier AP report plus the Russian mil presentation we know Ukraine had BUK systems on or near the frontline and according to the military presentation, live radar on the day. From all accounts at the time even from Ukraine, the rebels had captured some BUK units but they were not operational.
Russia move a single BUK launcher into the area – not a system? when they could create a no fly zone halfway to Kiev from Russian territory.
A uki “frontline map” here that gives an indication of positions at the time.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/02/27/world/europe/ukraine-divisions-crimea.html?_r=1
A 9М38M1 missile according to wikipedia has a range of 35km/32miles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system#9K37M1_Buk-M1_.28Ganges.29
According to the Ukies own map they were easily in range even at their so called frontline which is further back than in the above theory. Puts them in a sparsely populated area even in peace time.
R-27, which is the primary long-range missile used by the aircraft UAF have, uses either rod warhead or HE-FRAG warhead, at least according to wiki. No details on what kind UAF deploys but considering they use a lot of ancient Soviet gear, may well be HE-FRAG. It’s also a huge warhead, about 75 pounds IIRC, so the damage would not look that different from a Buk.
Now, as I’ve said in the article, I think it’s unlikely because there’s literally no evidence for this theory except some witness testimony. But it’s in the realm of possibility.
Operation Northwoods plans were discovered and made public during the 1990s by the National Security Archive–I used them in my US History classes prior to 911–that’s about 30 or so years after being made in 1962, not 50.
My info was that it was released in about 2002 – 3 so I was wrong there. Thinking about too many things, and you studied in the 90s so my info was wrong as well. cheers.
Sounds like a compromise fairy tale intended to cover up the western crime. Russia and Novorossia should not settle for any less than the full disclosure of the perpetrators. Peter Haisenko’s version with the fighter plane is still my favourite. I can smell the false flag.
Haisenko’s version is a theory based on a few pics. So is mine which is different.
For me, here’s the giveaway in the article:
“The rest basically describes why they think it’s BukM1, which sensible people didn’t doubt much (yes, it is technically possible a government fighter like Mig-29 shot down MH17 with a long-range air-to-air missile, but it’s a rather far-fetched scenario).”
Wow, I certainly want to be “sensible” & not espouse anything “far-fetched”.
Thanks guys, for all the factual rebuttal.
See the comments above, I believe they clear some of the confusion. I wanted to keep the article short and to the point, and hence did not delve too deeply into the finer points of other MH17 shootdown theories.
Mihailovich — I appreciate you publishing this piece here, but I’m just not convinced that there was no UAF jet. Or that a SU25M1 (see above) could not be modified to carry a missile with a bigger warhead than an R60, including the R27. Mark Galeotti and Bill Sweetman of Aviation Week basically staked their entire argument on the ‘R60s too small’ point.
Agree with everyone who’s said it though that if the pilot and even some forward passenger autopsies were released and the ID’d bodies matched up with where the passengers were said to be seated in the flight manifest, this could be cleared up next week and we’d know without a doubt whether it was a BUK, two RADAR homing (with their own lock on capability if fired close enough to the target) R27s finished off with cannon fire, or something else more exotic that nobody’s talking about (except maybe the folks at Veterans Today, but they’re a fringe site even when they occasionally get plausible intel like that Romanian or Polish pilots were flying SU25s for the UAF).
The fact that there’s been absolutely zero about the pilot autopsies despite the Malaysian press being more skeptical of the Western/Kiev version of events is very suspicious to me. If the Dutch report completely omits that and almost downplays or neglects to mention at all passenger autopsies, perhaps citing the excuse that some bodies decomposed, you’ll know it was a coverrup job. As if we didn’t already sense that was coming once NATO member Dutch were allowed to seize the investigatory lead from the Malaysians whose airliner it was that went down, while the Dutch got their gold back from New York.
If the Malaysian were leading up this investigation instead of being second or third tier parts of it possibly excluded from the most important details I’d feel a whole lot better about the reliability of the final report.
It’s not about what SU25 can carry, it’s about the targeting suite. I suppose it’s theoretically possible, but why is everyone so hung up on SU25? UAF were operating Mig29 in the area at the time, a couple were even shot down. I think the locals call every military jet “SU25” because that’s what they see most often.
It’s not about what SU25 can carry, it’s about the targeting suite.
False claim. Pure disinfo. An Su-25 can carry 2 AA missiles and has the means to fully use them against air targets.
Projectiles and propulsion BT. Facts.
Penelope
For me, here’s the giveaway in the article:
“The rest basically describes why they think it’s BukM1, which sensible people didn’t doubt much (yes, it is technically possible a government fighter like Mig-29 shot down MH17 with a long-range air-to-air missile, but it’s a rather far-fetched scenario).”
Wow, I certainly want to be “sensible” & not espouse anything “far-fetched”.
Thanks guys, for all the factual rebuttal.
Yeah, it’s a very familiar style to those familiar with opinion manipulation. The whole article by Mihailovich is interwoven with these sorts of psychological manipulations where he makes completely unsupported, sweeping statements in support of the disinfo from the propaganda front, Novaya Gazeta’s, article, intended to psychologically sway a reader to a specific viewpoint, rather than inform them. In other words, instead of using facts, the writer uses emotional and psychologically manipulative aides to manipulate the reader. The style of the propagandist. If you look at what he actually writes, rather than implies, you will notice that Mihailovich does not support anything he writes with referenced factual material, both in the article and in his comments, nothing he claims is sourced. You’ll also notice that when other people bother to seriously fact check Mihailovich’s “authoritative” claims, they’ve found and shown them to actually be false. His writing is all literally just advert copy.
For me, the most revealing line in this propaganda piece was this, though:
– Rebel mistake. Previously this seemed the most logical
The accidental shootdown by the rebels scenario is the main propaganda meme of the zionazis intended to “hook” the more rational in the west (not the fox news type marks, who need only be told the Russians shot down the airliner because they are evil and Russian). IE: he obviously accepted that Israeli-American propaganda scenario from the very beginning. Writing that line was a serious screw-up. ;D
1) See above on cannon shootdown theory.
2) Now, it is true that SU25 can reach the required height, but Russian MOD radars did not detect any planes until after MH17 was hit (and those could potentially be MH17 debris). And no, SU25 could not hide behind MH17 because damage came from the front.
3) The R60 missiles that SU25 is armed with can shoot at most 3 miles horizontal, I’m guessing maybe a mile up – no way to stay under radar and reach MH17. Moreover, the damage from R60 is low and looks nothing like extensive fragmentation on MH17.
4) NG report, the initial part (that I thought self-evident and did not translate) deals with the kinds of fragments BukM1 has(3 kinds, as opposed to 2 on older BUK warheads) and points out the holes in MH17 purportedly left by each of the 3 kinds, including some H-shaped ones. Just plug the thing into Google Translate.
Tatzhit Mihailovich,
Delivering this and defending it has eclipsed your credibility.
It should have been wrapped in odor proof packaging.
We are on the verge of an all out assault to eliminate Assad, to witness efforts to disrupt the Moscow events in a few days and the probably launch of a Ukie offensive shortly.
And you come bearing this at this time.
IF you came and destroyed it, torn it apart, that would make some sense.
But you are equipped to defend it.
I said earlier what it now requires, in my opinion, to discuss the event and tragedy.
Radar records, tower communication and satellite imagery. Raw, unedited.
Anything less is a waste of everyone’s time.
Now why is our time and minds being wasted, here of all places?
This is Troll with all caps. Troll by article. Troll by defense of a troll article.
Is this where we are going?
I’m in a bad mood. I’ll stop here.
Larchmonter445,
Sit down, this might come as a shock. Ready?
Some people don’t have an agenda. I try not to have one.
I report plausible evidence and analysis because I think knowing what’s really going on is important.
I wrote this translation/commentary because I think it is a plausible theory.
As I think it’s plausible, I had no intention of “destroying” it.
I “defended” it because I think it’s important to share opinions, explain where others are wrong, and see where I may be wrong.
This theory is backed up by extensive primary evidence – damage analysis, explosion modeling, satellite imagery*. I think it’s far from a waste of time.
Now “destroying” something, like the SU25 cannon “theory” – that would be a waste; what use is debunking one idiotic myth out of many? We know it’s not possible to land multiple cannon hits so close to each other on a plane moving quarter kilometer per second. Might as well debunk the idea that Earth is flat.
I’ll leave the trolling accusations alone.
*Tower comms and radar records that you asked for have long been published BTW, but they were not included in this analysis because they don’t show much out of the ordinary (Russian MOD radar shows a possible plane contact, but much lower, and already after MH17 was hit).
@ Tatzhit
Most of the time since the shootdown I have believed that MH17 was shot down by a large SAM missile. For a short time, I guess because nearly all theories were saying Air to Air I started to think that as I could not see how a Ukie missile launcher could be positioned to the east south/east or to the north and be within range with no witnesses.
Until a dutch photographer/reporter, he seemed also trying to get lay the blame on Russia (perhaps a requirement to get published in western or western/nato oriented press), I put a link to some of his pics above, made it seem very likely that MH17 had been hit by a large missile that detonated roughly the position in your analysis.
The patten of the blast fragments/shrapnel/discolouration makes the the scenario the best I have seen to date.
Much appreciated Tatzhit.
Larchmonter445
Agree 100%.
The article in the zionazi front, the use of it by the western zionazi media to promote their goebbelsian propaganda, the defense of it and promotion of it, with zero credible supporting evidence, or even logical interpretation, and the falsification/ignoring of known factual material by “suspend your critical facilities, just have faith in my expert opinions, what I tell you is the gospel scientific, factual truth” Mihailovich, which coincidentally reinforces the Israelo-American propaganda memes, is classic info and public perception manipulation tactics. This is documented classic disinfo practice from the covert assets of western “intelligence”.
That they used thoroughly discredited Novaya Gazeta, who have about as much credibility in Russia as the tooth fairy, means that influencing Russian 5th columnists was probably only a secondary goal. The real purpose of this propaganda was the well documented old tried and true CIA tactic of having disinfo published in foreign, but owned sources, to give it the false legitimacy of independently derived analysis. Such corrupted sources are used to source planted material in order to distance it’s real source and allow the zio-media (now, though the practice predates the zionazi take-over of western fascist media practices and has been adopted by them) to front the disinfo as legit information.
The main purpose of this disinfo is to discredit analysis that posits an air to air encounter downing the airliner, which the zionazis can not seriously blame on Russia/Novorussia (outside of fox news and Novaya Gazeta type gibberish) and put the emphasis on the zionazi spammed “Buk did it” line. Which can be blamed on Russia/Novorussia in the zionazi western media and colonial regimes with the propaganda ground they have already put their emphasis on.
Damage found on wreckage parts picked up in November is not firm evidence — by then the debris had been exposed to 4 months of heavy fighting, as shown by large shell craters on videos of the November Dutch expedition.
Damage photographed in the first few days is reliably from the shoot-down. This shows all the shooting damage on the LEFT side, confirmed by the later image of the right side cockpit being undamaged (photo above).
Therefore ALL theories concluding it was shot from the RIGHT SIDE are nonsense. Measuring angles and distances is just a red herring, trying to look scientific while ignoring the most basic difference between left and right.
Shooting an H or X shape object straight at a stationary flat target MIGHT produce H or X shaped holes. When both the objects and the wall they hit are traveling at more than 400 miles an hour, in opposite directions, and they meet at an angle, there can be no expectation of a neatly shaped hole. So all guesses along those lines are nonsense, too.
Then saying a hole “looks like” it was from the front or fro the back? “looks like” is another wording for “we are guessing again”. FACT: most the object damage is at the FRONT of the plane. In theory this could be caused by a shot from behind — if luckily flat and level enough to miss the wing — and with fast enough bullets/shrapnel to CATCH UP WITH a target plane flying away from the shooter at 500 miles an hour. Also a shot from behind would have toi curve around to hit the INSIDE of the front engine cowling or break off blades from the main front fan (but these did happen, first-day photos clearly shows both).
=========================
So, if it was a BUK, it had to be ahead of the plane (ie east of it) and somewhere in an arc from head-on to left wingtip. Shnizne just fits for the “head on” location. Adveevka for the wingtip angle. Quite a lot of that area was in Kiev hands at the time; Adveevka actually had a BUK brigade stationed there, on July 15 doing exercises because Kiev thought the AN 26 the day before had been shot down by RUSSIAN Migs.
=========================
Numerous witnesses told TV reporters that day and next day about seeing other planes up there. Even Prime Minister Zakharchenko said several times he saw other planes up there with his own eyes (he was driving some 30 miles away). It was cloudy, nobody saw an actual shot NOR a missile hitting the Boeing. TWO explosions were heard..
=========================
Nobody seeing or hearing a BUKI? are we sure? did anyone interview all 3 million residents of Donbass? One big bang in peacetime they might report to somebody. But there was a WAR going on, with the front line pretty much right there. Rockets and missiles were being fired 24/7, so nobody would particularly notice or remember one any more than another…. nor think it necessary to, say, ring the police about it, as you might do in peacetime. So noticed/not noticed is not evidence in either direction. “Interviews” by sites like Reuters are either false or falsified, or don’t add up (witness digging potatoes in the snow in February???).
Wow! I feel so vindicated, as I have only been saying this very thing on this site since around July 21 of last year once the Russian MOD published the satellite photo and getting viciously attacked for it.
Thank you Saker and Tazhit for this article.
UAF was reportedly conducting anti-aircraft exercises at the time of MH17 shootdown.
Not reportedly. The UAF really were conducting such exercises, and they taped them and showed them on Ukrainian TV. I’ve posted the Youtube link before.
There is still one last scenario not considered – hacking into the UAF Buk firing/radar network by the Americans/NATO forces who were conducting exercises right off the Black Sea coast at the same time, and using that hacked link to shoot down the MH17 plane remotely by an unseen actor within the NATO forces or inside the American security state apparatus.
Going against the flow here it seems. Cheers.
FOUND IT, can’t find English subs version. Russian fighter fires 30mjm cannon at old planes on the ground. Interesting but entry holes seem too far apart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzw363q1N3o
in air to air scenario might be shooting from closer and better aimed, might make a difference to the scatter. .
Nothin much to say. Couldn’t sleep last night and this thread/article popped up. The reason I got onto the saker blog, MH17,. A few months before that our esteemed pm told us and China, that he had found MH370. he had a meeting on a free trade deal with china one or two days later.
MH17 crashed. Overnight here. Next morning our honourable PM told us those bad ruskies had shot down an aircraft with some of our citizens on board.. Yeah right. You found MH370 too
BT, and LcH ? I guess i would get modded out so cheers to all. And always look at everything Bot Talk and Larchmonter.
Abbott is a loud-mouth fool. Diplomacy he can’t even find in a dictionary. He thinks just because Obama can threaten people, he can also. (Which is why 2 boys just got executed in Indonesia — done quietly behind the scenes and started sooner they could have talked Indonesia into not executing them. Once they were publicly insulted, of course they were going to dig in their heels).
Anyway, MH17. There are several main theories, which keep coming up again with small variations. It is harmless to see them put forward again sometimes, as the REAL story we’ll never get anyway. My main criticism of this one is, that AS USUAL they go to a lot of effort but totally overlook vital issues (like it can’t have been shot from the right if all the damage is on the left).
NONE of the stories tries to be a balanced assessment, ALL of them push their own view. That is normal. Usually if a version comes up, it’s better to hunt around to see what ELSE is happening they are trying to divert attention from. This just coincides with the Dutch going back with their final haul of parts..
Andrew
Wow! I feel so vindicated
Vindicated by Novaya Gazeta. That’s like claiming the Russian army is in Donetsk and feeling “vindicated” when fox news confirms it. :D
I had a lot of respect for some of the commenters here. They can write better than me. They can put out there thoughts better than me. They make less silly mistakes than me.
That just dropped like the world bond market.
Pick it up folks. How the f@ck do you get something published in the western orientated MSM if you don’t blame the Russians.
You lot homogenised and pasteurised or thinking.
I knew nothing about Ukraine or Russia before MH17 was shot down. Info is easy to come by these days of www.
Seein the women and kids, fighting men I could handle, but the women and kids, broken by shrapnel, families first in the Ukraine, Syria, now Yemen
You put up some good stuff larchmonter but people are dying everywhere
Don’t be Fooled by Mainstream Media Journalists, “Independent” Experts and the CIA
Planting stories in the media is a standard CIA technique:
A common Agency tactic was writing editorials and phony news stories to be knowingly published by Latin American media with no indication of the CIA authorship or CIA payment to the media. The propaganda value of such a “news” item might be multiplied by being picked up by other CIA stations in Latin America who would disseminate it through a CIA-owned news agency or a CIA-owned radio station. Some of these stories made their way back to the United States to be read or heard by unknowing North Americans. (Blum, op. cit.)
After their Yeltsin “color revolution”, the ZPC/NWO got the same sort of access to Russian media as they did in Latin America. That’s what Novaya Gazeta is all about.
The CIA and Other Government Agencies Have Long Used Propaganda Against the American People
After 1953, the network was overseen by Allen W. Dulles, director of the CIA. By this time, Operation Mockingbird had a major influence over 25 newspapers and wire agencies. The usual methodology was placing reports developed from intelligence provided by the CIA to witting or unwitting reporters. Those reports would then be repeated or cited by the preceding reporters which in turn would then be cited throughout the media wire services.
The Office of Policy Coordination (OPC) was funded by siphoning off funds intended for the Marshall Plan [i.e. the rebuilding of Europe by the U.S. after WWII]. Some of this money was used to bribe journalists and publishers.
You could get a journalist cheaper than a good call girl, for a couple hundred dollars a month.
The CIA even ran a formal training program in the 1950s to teach its agents to be journalists. Intelligence officers were “taught to make noises like reporters,” explained a high CIA official, and were then placed in major news organizations with help from management.
Once the story is planted, those whose job is to promote it go to work, and as one can see here, they do.
You have some good stuff bot talk, but give it a rest on this one. If you don’t agree move on.
Peter on May 08, 2015 · at 6:27 am UTC
You have some good stuff bot talk, but give it a rest on this one. If you don’t agree move on.
Yes, sod the facts, sod objectivity, we got a job to do, so just shut up and let us spin whatever bs we want in support of our ZPC/NWO betters. I understand, same demand you lot always make.
You’re not spinning. You are saying your mind.
My lot? The lot that believes US was behind the shootdown?
Pick it up Bot. You”re better than that.
I’m too tired too be bothered.
Peter.
And you too Bot talk.
If your gonna be decent and fair, better than the one percenters and Nazi types, you’re gonna take some hits. Not taking hits is putting you in the same league as the Nazi/one percenters. Pick it up bot talk or somebody would think you’re a wimp.
Not sure if you will post this mods/saker
A closed mind is the same as the Nazi stret gangs running Ukraine, The salafists in Middle east and elseware, the one percenters.
Once the story is planted, those whose job is to promote it go to work, and as one can see here, they do.
What are you thinking Bot Talk. You and others have not disproved what Tatzhit is saying with facts. You lot are using propaganda style denigration. Come up with solid facts and numbers. that is something I can work with.
Bloody hell mate mate. I’m an Aussie. Not the Abbott type shit.
Once the story is planted, those whose job is to promote it go to work, and as one can see here, they do…not exactly a worker of subtlety, are you peter. ;D
Subtle is not my middle name. Normally I tread carefully.
The shit we are working against, goes with the flow. Independent types gravitate to blogs like this.
You and me, we have an argument.
Did US/Nato shoot it down with a air to air missile/canon or did they shoot it down with a SAM?
Put up some facts and figures or admit your are surviving on a theory too.
No wonder countries go to war. Wo… er no you’re wound up, like me. Was gonna say cheers mate but does not seem to be in your vocabulary. Important requisite for diplomacy.
Sorry. last bit was not very diplomatic.,
Not sure how far we can go here bot without gettin zapped. Open mind against closed mind. Make your choice.
Peter.
[ZAPPER: no bad language no abuse; jousting is ok, put down the glass]
mmm tomorrow. Cheers BT and KK.
Another view: MH17- was it all about Ebola?
http://thephaser.com/2015/05/mh17-was-it-all-about-ebola/
What is this poor article doing on this site?
Its full of propaganda and blatant lies.
And what really concerns me is, why are the poster obvious defending the articles with even more blatant lies?
No planes on radar then mh17 at the time?
Incorrect. There were atleast 3 planes there. Both on russian radars, on ukranian radars. Atleast 2 planes was seen by eyewitnesses.
And several civilians “felt” the impact when some of them killed and destroyed villages in the vicinity.
So no planes? Eh.. Give me a break.
And why is that video in the article showing a buk beeing launched so “perfectly” included in the article, without any text stating that it was only an example of how a buk missile _would_ have looked like? because that video is not from the mh17 episode (allthough naive readers get the impression that it is).
Not even wasting my time with all the other hogwash.
Expect more from this site.
(Allthough seeing many theories are fine, but BS/blatant lies and then defend crap theory with even telling more lies.. No thnx).
Every time some new “solution” is published we have a look at it. One person “defending” it helps remind everyone why it is not so, as they all bring up their demolitions of the “latest theory”.
That way we slowly work towards the tidying up and sharpening how it could have been, leaving no loose ends.
That is what makes this an analysis and discussion site, rather than a propaganda one. Every view can be posted but it gets examined.
1)The US/Nato was conducting exercises in the Black sea at the time.
2) US has a satelite overhead at the time of the crash.
3) All the nato ships in the exercise area had radar,yet in spite of #1,#2,#3 the US has no images.
4) Within 24 hours,every tabloid rag from London to Sydney, Australia is singing from the same songsheet,extraordinary co-ordination,usually only accomplished by government diktat.(‘national security’ etc)
5) a Malaysian airplane, but the UK(safe hands) get the ‘black’ boxes.
6) ATC controllers and tapes get silenced/removed.
7) The OSCE monitor first on the scene has never been interviewed since he said “There were signs of very heavy machine gun fire on the front” and he is still working in the Donbass.(Canadian,Micheal B…).
8) Since when does a civil aviation crash report have to be a national secret of several countries allied to US interests?.
There are many more points to be made,but….
If the US and it’s poodles had any proofs,we would have been hearing about this tragedy daily.
And finally, if anyone believes that 300 or 3000 or even 3 million lives are of any significance for the ‘elites’ e.g. MH17,911 or IRAQ…
remember what the old zionist Madelaine Albright said about 500,000 Iraqi children dead from sanctions….”we think it was worth it”.
The OSCE monitor first on the scene has never been interviewed since he said “There were signs of very heavy machine gun fire on the front” and he is still working in the Donbass.(Canadian,Micheal B…).
Why not give his full name? Michael Bociurkiw. Son of Prof. Bohdan Brciurkiw of the OUN.
He sounds entirely objective and couldn’t possibly be trying to mislead you. Right?
Kat Kan
That way we slowly work towards the tidying up and sharpening how it could have been, leaving no loose ends.
Unfortunately, not this time. I would have much rather seen a translation of the original article, rather than Mihailovich’s sales spiel about it. The latter’s false, sweeping statements and habit of inventing “facts” to suit his sales pitch only wastes people’s time disproving what are obvious falsehoods and lies already shown to be lies.
1. No military planes detected before MH17 shootdown. Definitely none in position to produce damage we see – from the front-top.
Yeah, there were civilian airliners flying a long distance away. How is that relevant to anything?
As for civilians – eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable, and IIRC most of them mentioned seeing a plane flying much lower than MH17, so below radar. Under these circumstances, the only planes capable of reaching MH17 would be Mig29 or SU27 – which I discuss above as one of possible if unlikely versions.
2. Description of the video says “Training Ground” in Russian. Everybody else seems to have no trouble understanding the video is given as example.
@ Tatzhit
“…1. No military planes detected before MH17 shootdown. …”
None detected by whom? the Russian radar had another (military) plane on it (not sure of time and direction etc as the image was unclear to me). Numerous witnesses said they saw another plane or planes.
“… eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable,…” is no excuse for dismissing it out of hand. None claimed to have seen the fighters shooting at MH17, in fact none even speculated that it may have. They told what they had seen – other plane(s), MH17 going into a cloud bank, something MAYBE one other plane going UP into the same cloud, hearing TWO loud bangs, then MH17 started falling.
At least one witness talked of the other plane “hanging around:” in circles for a while as the airliner was falling. Some of these were people in different villages and not speaking in each others’ hearing, so if the other plane(s) are imaginary they imagined them independently.
“…flying much lower than MH17, so below radar…” what is below radar altitude to you? are you saying an SU25 at 8000 ft or 6000 ft would be invisible to radar?
================
Anyway if there was one there it is not proof that it did anything except look, it just opens the possibility. We can’t dismiss witnesses statements out of hand just for fear of having to consider that possibility.
Look at this instead: just over three hours after the plane came down, the fire still burning, NOBODY from Kiev government having gone there, Ukraine Media Centre adviser Anton Gerashchenko was tweeting separatists had shot it down with a Russian BUK. This was before the cockpit part with all the holes had been found. Or in fact any evidence that it WAS shot down.
But Kiev officially “knew” all about it already. In a few hours when the USA woke up, they started foaming at the mouth blaming the separatists and Putin.
So all this measuring angles and speeds achieves is trying to work out where that separatist Russian BUK might have been, NOT trying to work out what really happened. That is what many others here are objecting to.
NG article is a good one. It is written by knowledgeable people. They did a good job with positioning, and made perhaps the best case so far in the Buk theory.
Indeed problems remain. E.g.it seems all but impossible to get a high density missile shrapnel shot (as it looks like) on the wing flap by a shot from the cabin, without getting similarly high damage on the wing leading there (some 10 m or more worth of it, 1/3 of the total length). But we do not seem to have that much of the left wing missing. We have most of the outer portion of it with only light damage. The engine part seems to have lighter damage in comparison.
Inconsistencies do cast a doubt on a single Buk theory, -but not on the article authors, or the magazine –they did about the best they could, staying in that theory.
1. Fair enough, I guess I should have instead phrased the article to say something more neutral and explain how it’s possible that a Mig29 or SU27 could have reached MH17 while staying under the radar
2. On radar detection of low-flying aircraft – as far as I understand, civilian ATC radar used had serious trouble detecting anything below 10,000 ft or thereabouts. So, yes, it would not detect a government plane at 6000.
3. Kiev government have verbal diarrhea, I don’t find that in the least bit surprising. They claimed Russians may have used nuclear weapons against UAF positions in Lugansk airport, too.
4. The report places the shooter at the location where Russian MOD detected two UAF Buks.
This article is another example of collection of unrelated stories from various sources specifically selected to drive the people’s thoughts into a certain direction.
Conclusion by article : There was no Ukrainian Jets. Must be Buks.
I say, “Who cares?”
All the theories about angle of approach, missile characteristics , blah blah.. cannot explain the following simple facts.
1. There is no open investigation.
2. Radar Station records have been confiscated by SBU (Ukraine Secret Service).
3. US have not released a single Satellite Photo even when they had several monitoring the situation.
4. Pilot autopsy results have not been released.
5. Corpses on plane are never discussed (http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/07/rebel-leader-many-dead-bodies-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-crash-werent-fresh/)
6. Holland, Australia and Ukraine signed agreement not to release any evidence without joint approval of the findings. This by itself is probably unprecedented in Aviation history. (Interestingly Malaysia being left out of the loop even while it was a Malaysian Airlines, that got hit.)
7. Both US and Ukraine which claimed to have clear proof of Russian involvement, have not provided anything expect for support to several hypothetical articles such as this.
I do not have to be accurate about the list I have provided above. It is not my job. But I expect the people paid to do the investigation to do something right.
I can only tell you about the “not fresh bodies”. This is being disregarde3d, after it led to a few weeks of silly stories about the plane being MH370, bodies and all, with various strange inventions about where it had been kept since disappearing etc.
Okay, the people finding the bodies used to be normal peaceful people who’d never seen a dead body except neatly laid out in a coffin. Come the civil war, they started to see freshly killed bodies, mostly from explosions — blood everywhere and arms or legs or heads missing, but clothed.
The MH17 bodies were largely stripped of clothing (by the blast and the wind created by the fall). Sorry if this is going to be gory — the shock wave of the missile blast would compress body cavities, leading to inability to breathe, and internal bleeding in the lungs and abdomen. The sudden loss of circulating blood causes swelling in the brain and liver. So the swollen body gets tossed around some more in the plane, meanwhile getting frozen (as at that height outside temperatures are well below zero). Then if they land in ways that rip off arms and legs, they are already 3 or 4 minutes dead, and all their blood has been removed (internal bleeding) or is frozen in their arteries.
So they saw grotesque swollen bodies that did not bleed from serious fresh wounds. Add in a nasty acrid smell (burning aviation fuel and burning plastic plane interiors) and their first reaction was, these are old bodies. However, many were quickly identified as matching their documents, and matching people who got on the plane just a few hours before. So this “dead bodies” was never taken seriously by anyone.
Your remaining points all go to an original strong desire to blame Russia (which was already Bogeyman of the Year) coupled with a fear of finding out it was really someone from client state Ukraine (even if only accidental). All parties to the investigation, including the Ukraine, can veto any part of the final report. So the moist we an hope for is “what” caused it, but not who owned it.
Thanks for explaining this. Very valuable, it was used to attack Novorossiyans as kooks.
Thanks for the explanation, I was afraid I’m gonna have to type all that up. Cheers!
Popper, as in Karl. He was right about hypothesis ‘robustness’, though he was talking about experiments, not actual events.
But all of the hypotheses are,as Larchmonter says, worthless without data.
I don’t find the article convincing for that reason alone. The source is as reliable as the Moscow Times, i.e. not at all. Sorry Mr Mi
In the absence of the conclusive data Larchmonter rightly demands, I go with an air-to-air hypothesis as Anonymous implies:
1. Satellite pics of at least one fighter plane – which had to be UAF, the militias had no air force – show they were in the area.
2. A Boeing engineer on this site gave a pretty good account of how two fighter planes deploying missiles in tandem could have brought one down.
3. The cockpit is consistent with machine-gun damage.
But:
The recent report by Eduard Basurin – a source who is trustworthy – do indicate the UAF had BUKs. Specifically, documentation with instructions for deployment in the MH-17 crash time-frame. The NAF are still studying them.
So the possibility of a BUK launch at MH-17 is shifting to probability. That does not exclude the air-to-air attacks, but does make the ‘rebel mistake’ look like disinfo. (Sorry Tatzhit if it’s unknowing on your part.)
Guess Blue gets the gong.
eimar:
The recent report by Eduard Basurin – a source who is trustworthy – do indicate the UAF had BUKs.
The Ukrainain’s Junta ran with a TV essay on the ATO on July 16, 2014 showing their deployment of BUK’s in the Donbass region.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3MomxNHnUA
See the section around 4:50.
We didn’t need Basurin or NG or the Russian MOD to tell us this. The Junta admitted it themselves for the benefit of their own true believers and bragged about it the day before the downing of MH17.
So the possibility of a BUK launch at MH-17 is shifting to probability.
Shifting to? Its always been the most likely explanation. It doesn’t require a delicate balance of circumstances like an air-to-air shootdown. Just one idiot in the control firiing seat accidentally or purposefully pressing a button. The Ukrainians already did this once with Siberian 1812. Their military is obviously incompetent given their failure to supress the NAF and their actual losing to the NAF including the mass loss of armor.
A friend of Novorossiya writes a piece that confirms Kiev’s guilt, but looks at it from a different angle.
He is promptly attacked by a pack of zealots; his irony is proof of heresy–zealots are too patriotically stiff to catch irony: “I was wondering how this zio-propaganda would make it over to this site;” “psychological manipulations;”
”disinfo from the propaganda front;” “zionazi take-over;” “Troll by defense of a troll article;” ”Once the story is planted, those whose job is to promote it go to work, and as one can see here, they do.”
Mihailovich is clearly accused of deviationism; the inquisitors could be doing it to lower the debate level; yet, they seem real, right in the steps of the Red Guards, as they hunt down classical musicians.
“Johan”, on the other side, must be a false-flag: “Zionist Anna Politkovskaya – the notorious poison-pen… who was croaked for her treasonous activities…”
Brilliantly, in one single line, Johan cheers a reporter’s killing, “admits” that she was killed for her anti-state revelations, implies the state (i.e. Putin) is responsible, and tries to tag The Saker as a joohaters’ hangout. Perfect job.
matt
“A friend of Novorossiya writes a piece…”
I have some bad news for you, matt. Your heroine had her pre-trial detention extended yet again:
Russia Extends Arrest of Ukrainian Citizen Savchenko Until June 30
That poor, thweet, innocent girl being abused by the Russian “hitlers”. It must be breaking your heart watching this travesty of justice from afar and not being able to help her. :(
sshhh BT don’t stir
BT remembers that Chomsky had suggested to me a petition; I wrote it and he signed it–the petition was to release a certain prisoner on hunger strike, without giving any personal support for her cause or actions.
I am not a great believer in democracy and petitions, and sure enough it did not work–folks on our side are pure and sure and don’t understand that looking good and being honest is also good propaganda.
If Savchenko is accused of torturing prisoners, she should be tried in Donetsk.
It’s dumb to accuse her in Moscow of being a forward observer in Donetsk or Lugansk. The FSB try to get her to plead guilty to “dis con”, when there is not even evidence she had an open beer container, while a f.o.
Some FSB bigwigs are just trying to avoid admitting stupid error, even though the result is to make Poroshenko look good and to make Putin look like he broke the Minsk prisoner exchange.
These party patriots just have no practical sense. Whether doing a damaging international frame-up or attacking a friendly reporter for not being a double-plus-duckspeaker, party patriots are in a constant war with their self-interest.
Why was she sent into Russia?
For the cause of her cause. You bought into it.
Chomsky is brilliant. But he is ignorant also.
This murdering bitch sniper killed two reporters-cameramen with her skill set.
Since Russia is the only Rule of Law nation in the region and they possess her because she was sent there, they are dealing with her.
It might be worthwhile to return the harpy to Novorussia for trial. Russia does not have a death penalty, Novorussia, I believe still does. ;)
Officially, Savchenko was in Russia because she escaped from Novorossiya and tried to sneak into Russia as a refugee, where she was unmasked by alert border guards as a wanted criminal. Her own story that she was moved to Russia, with a bag on her head, is more likely and is generally admitted to be true… proving that in Russia, just like in the West, prosecutors enjoy the right to present obviously false information to the courts.
The accusation of murder is ridiculous; RT showed the film of the shelling that killed the two reporters, at a roadblock. Even if she had been involved, it’s not a crime to direct fire to a roadblock. They do not have even evidence for that–otherwise they would have tried her in Donetsk. A local Russian bureaucrat must have wanted fame, and NR sent him a prisoner of note, as a personal favor.
This case has parallels to that of Omar Khadr, Guantanamo’s youngest prisoner, victim of a lawyers’ conspiracy, since 2002. In jail should be those who embarrassed America and Canada for 13 years over Omar Khadr; in jail should be the FSB guys who filed false charges.
The whole story shows that in Russia–just as in the US–prosecutors may advance their careers, at the cost of embarrassing the nation in front of the rest of the world… and the leaders explain that they cannot do anything about it, because America made it oh so fashionable to separate powers. In the democratic system that the world is suffering under, national leaders must pretend that they are subject to local crooked judges and to their buddies in the police bureaucracies.
And re the priest who swears she was personally present when people were being tortured?
Quite possible. Then try her in Donetsk. Why fake imaginary charges when you have real evidence?
I was really hoping I would NOT have to machine translate the huge original Novajagazeta article. No such luck.
FIRST let us stop being hard on Tatzhit Mihailovich. He read it and gave a good precis of the main points. It is not his fault it’s a bad report.
SECOND let us stop carrying on about zio disinformation or NG’s general attitude and record.
THIRD let us understand there is no new DATA here, just a reworking of some of the already known items
FOURTH let us see what this purports to be. It is supposedly a report leaked to NG, prepared by Russian experts, to be part of Russia’s submission to the Dutch investigation. Recall the Dutch DID SAY a while ago they have asked Russia to provide everything they have (also same request to other parties, eg Ukraine and USA).
There is NOTHING NEW in the underlying data. And the experts are not only not named, even where they work is not mentioned. Okkay, let’s say it is a real leak, that might make sense.
But if it is in any way an OFFICIAL report, I’d expect to see some new data in it,. eg maybe a better version of the radar reports, or more radar reports (before and after, sort of). Something from a satellite maybe — Russia has satellites up there too. Maybe an actual ATC audio, not just transcript.
The Zaroschenskoe location was already floated by Russia, with the same images, and not taken seriously then either. Apart from some doubts about the authenticity of the images, they are again public satellite, and a launch from there relies on the missile having been fired ass a drop-shot, having to pass above the aircraft and come down on the far side of it giving a top-down scatter pattern that doesn’t match the known holes NOR allows any stray shrapnel to get inside the port engine (but which it did).
==========================
So what we need to look at is…. why does this come out now? what else happened? well NAF showed they have some maps that UAF themselves had marked up for locations of their BUKs. Those maps have known provenance, and are part of a HUGE body of documents too big to have been faked (and all on official UAF stationery and forms).
So someone (who?) comes up with a (maybe real maybe faked) yet another version of evidence that doesn’t quite add up. What are they doing? increasing the weight of the “Russians have faked the evidence so many times” meme??
This is the same how a “new revelation” of the Russian BUK theory comes out (often from the Netherlands) the day after any new Ukrainian Plane theory shows up. This time there’s aq chance a MAP of Ukrainian BUKs has shown up, so out comes a fairly easily discreditable “Russia blames Ukrainian BUK” story to take the wind out of the NAF sails for their map.
____
/ \
/ — O– how they reckon the missile went (facing the plane’s nose, the O) so from south of it
—O\—
\ how it had to go to make the damage it did, so from the north east.
Q.E.D. without google earth or red circles.
Kat Kan:
a launch from there relies on the missile having been fired ass a drop-shot, having to pass above the aircraft and come down on the far side of it giving a top-down scatter pattern that doesn’t match the known holes NOR allows any stray shrapnel to get inside the port engine (but which it did).
I disagree. If BUK and MH17 are approaching each other at roughly a right angle, with BUK dropping from above on a ballistic trajectory and with a side firing of projectiles, then the proximity fuse of BUK is triggered when the missile is in front of and above the plane and the warhead explodes.
The fragments vector of momentum have a forward vector away from the plane following the path and velocity of the missile and the rightward vector into the face of the plane at the velocity caused by the explosion (and of course upward and downward vectors for the fragments at the bottom and top of the warhead and leftward for those on the side away from the plane). This would tend to angle the fragments actually hitting the plane towards the back left of the plane, and this is the angle seen in the left side holes of the cockpit and the reason the port (left) engine is hit alogn with the left wing. At the same time MH17 is running forwards into this cloud of fragments spreading away ftowards the planes left and the left side of the plane would experience significant damage while the right would mostly go unscathed.
What I do not understand is why it is a ‘leaked’ report from the Russian Union of Engineers. On 15-8-2014 they published an earlier technical investigation of the MH17 crash, which was openly published, also here on the Saker.
Report Russian Union of Engineers
Why is this one secret? Can’t it be found on their website? I could not check the site of the Russian Engineers, yandex could not translate it.
It seems it is not the same Union of engineers. It is unnamed engineers from some other association Supposedly experts, but conveniently nobody can check this, as it is a “leaked secret”.
The whole leaked secrets industry is dying. Done sparingly, it may have caused some people to believe they were being allowed into a secret society, therefore can feel self-important, therefore won’t question the “secret knowledge” that gains them entry to this higher status.
But now, “huge secrets” are being “leaked” almost daily. Nearly everyone knows it’s just a trick to make people believe lies, so leaked secrets are looked on with suspicion that than with hope or pride in sharing “inside information”. .
Anyway I am sure this report exists, but it cannot be an official Russian submission to the investigators — anything official should include radar and satellite stuff that is NOT just copied from the internet, as the ones in this report are.
I see, indeed the article says militairy engineers (MIC), not the same engineers as the union engineers. Thank you Kat Kan, I overlooked it.
Please read ” Colonel Cassad’s report” on MH17, especially the sections on the shape of the fermentation elements packed into BUK warheads and, alternatively, AAMs.
The NG report skates over these critical details. Interesting, though,to see the undamaged plexiglass starboard windows. Any SAM Strike would have blown these out.
It was not in internal bomb. Once the skin was holed (by whatever) the plane would decompress, taking the line of least resistance (the newly made holes). Also holed fuselage panels further back did peel off, but those are just a thin skin. The nose and windows are triple layer and very strong and rigid, designed to withstand strikes against flocks of 50lb birds at 500 mph.
This report can’t say a lot about fragment shapes because nobody knows. The two pieces supposedly found by photo-journalist Joern Akkermans have no firm provenance as being from this event. (The small rusty piece in the report is one of his, included I guess for illustrative purposes).
But you are right, in that there are differences, which is why they need to compare the pieces found in the bodies.
Do you have a Link handy for the Cassad report, please?
I dont post very often but on this issue I feel it cannot be stressed enough that to retain credibility on *any* issue one must post BOTH sides of it – and then proceed to analyse the arguments and choose the side which connects the most dots, or to synthesize a new theory that will fit most consistently with the *verifiable* data from all sides.
Here, as in most major events, we are hamstrung – because there appears to be contradictory evidence on many major issues, plus there is the simple fact that most of us are ignorant on importanat issues, such as ballistics.
There is also the very important issue of psyops and disinformation *ON BOTH SIDES*.
And the effect this contamination can have on the interpretation of the data.
Posting the NG article was the very correct thing to do. I see plenty of faults with it, such as not detailing the shrapnel information from ALL the planes surfcaces, and no mention of what effect decompression would have had on the outward folding of some of the sections of skin, suggesting exit artifacts of projectiles.
While I personally believe that it was a false flag operation, I still regard it as an hypothesis rather than a theory, until more information is ascertained. Autopsy data, and a public interview with the Spanish air traffic controller would be a good place to start.
But the mere suggestion that it may have accidentally occurred in ‘the fog’ of war is still a possibility, and should not be dismissed and condemned outright.
The scary thing is that the West deliberately obfuscates and hides data on even the most pointless of issues. It seems to encourage conspiracy theorists – with the obvious intent to bring out the kooks to more easily marginalize the *real* conspiracies.
Looking at the comments in Russian Insider and fortruss on this article it seems most people believe MH17 was shot down from the air and nothing else. Disinformation working well there.
That this article has appeared in a pro west Russian paper? Disinformation? I don’t know what to make of it.
The sat photos are from the Russian MOD presentation of Russian evidence. The two anti aircraft units were in that position on the morning of the 17th and gone on the 18th. (I call them AA units as that appeared to be what they were called by the translator at the presentation)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bNPInuSqfs
According to Robert Parrys article in Consortium News –
“Regarding the shoot-down of the Malaysian jetliner on Thursday, I’m told that some CIA analysts cite U.S. satellite reconnaissance photos suggesting that the anti-aircraft missile that brought down Flight 17 was fired by Ukrainian troops from a government battery, not by ethnic Russian rebels who have been resisting the regime in Kiev since elected President Viktor Yanukovych was overthrown on Feb. 22.” https://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/19/airline-horror-spurs-new-rush-to-judgment/
US did state that they had detected a missile launch and this paragraph from Parry in some ways confirms that. It also indicates that the missile could have been fired from an area that both sides could access. An area similar to where the AA units are located in the sat pics in the Russian presentation.
Peter on May 11, 2015 · at 1:44 am UTC
Looking at the comments in Russian Insider and fortruss on this article it seems most people believe MH17 was shot down from the air and nothing else. Disinformation working well there.
Pure zionazi sayanim spin. You things are definitely out of your depth on subjects outside of footie scores.
@ BOT TAK
I would be interested in your opinion on the Mod presentation, the Robert Parry article (he did another the same in December) and also any links the Novaya Gazeta has to the likes of CIA, Soros ect.
Novaya Gazeta 39% owned by Alexander Lebedev. 10% Owned by Mikhail Gorbachev and staff control the remaining 51% according to wikipedia.
Gorbachev has publicly backed Putin recently.
Lebedev? Owns 4 UK papers with his son, but a couple of interesting pieces in wikipedia (for whatever its worth as a source)
“Lebedev used to own the Moskovski Korrespondent, but according to Channel 4’s Dispatches programme, Lebedev closed it down “for political reasons after it published a spurious article about Vladimir Putin having an affair with an Olympic gymnast half his age.”
“After the assassination of a prominent Novaya Gazeta journalist Anna Politkovskaya, Lebedev praised in print the talents of Politkovskaya and suggested her assassins were actually trying to target the good names of her opponents. He pledged 25 million Russian rubles (around US$1 million) for the information leading to the arrest of the assassins”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Lebedev
Politkovskaya’s opponents?
Anna Stepanovna Politkovskaya (Russian: А́нна Степа́новна Политко́вская; IPA: [ˈannə stʲɪˈpanəvnə pəlʲɪtˈkofskəjə]; Ukrainian: Га́нна Степа́нівна Політко́вська; née Mazepa; 30 August 1958 – 7 October 2006) was a Russian journalist, writer, and human rights activist known for her opposition to the Second Chechen War and President of Russia Vladimir Putin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya
If anyone has any solid links that the paper or its owners are actively working against Russia, rather than just working against the current Russian government, it would be appreciated.
peter
Defense of Novaya Gazeta propaganda, [……]
[MOD:please don’t shoot the messenger.Read the message: he is asking for evidence, not defending]
peter
Sourcing wikipedia is what wikipedia was invented for the zionazi propagandist. The zio-porno-mogul who financed this zionazi phony rubbish now called wikipedia, this zionazi keeps asking for money. pay us more so we can disinform you more with our wikipedia. With all the zionazi soros money and who knows what else, why would this zio-mafia “ex-mafia/drug mafia” (cough-cough), need outside funding? They things don’t. Like everything else the zionazis engage with, and massively supported by their hasbara corps/marketing “agents”, it’s a typical Goldman-Sacks sort of scam to fleece the marks. Give us money so we can continue to misinform and impoverish and disempower you, and empower us, zionazi/nazis, and at the same time, make you essentially voluntary zombies.
Great social advance you zionazi butt bandits created in Europe, from nazi to zionazi. Hey that’s a social advancement every butt bandit is sure to be proud of.
…… (for whatever its worth as a source) ….. as I put in my post.
Handy as a starting point. Looking up different names NGOs ect in the past, it often only takes a quick look at wikipedia to see they are connected to US funding, CIA, or the likes of Soros.
In this case nothing shows up in wikipedia, and throughout the comment section here, nobody has left any links to evidence showing that this is occurring.
I would consider this article as another fake. Indeed, there is a witness, who names the ukrainane pilot shooting down the jet. What else? Only once again to prop slander and lies? Shame, man.
The fragment dispersion pattern does not match the damage to the plane. How did the fragments enter the top of the cockpit as mentioned in the JIT report and the side lower belly of the plane?
Where is the angle trajectory 3d diagrams x/y/z axis?
You should be able to place a series of laser beams on each point of impact on the reconstructed fuselage and calculate and determine the angle of attack and the point of explosion.
Where is the pilots autopsy reports? These were completed months ago,.
Nobody speaks about the fact, that a BUK-radar can’t distinguish between the colours and names of different civil airplanes. They only can detect the difference between the smaller military jets and the bigger civil planes.This means in the case, no BUK-System could act without help and indications of ukrainian civil air-controll-station at the ground, in ukrainian territory. Neither “imported” russian BUK-specialists, nor separatists, got the help of the ucrainian air-control-stations- or did they???
Why russian military forces should execute a secret action – whith full insecurity about which civil airplane they would attack? Acting being “blind”? Risking to shoot down their own president Putin, who was expected to fly over the zone about 20 minutes later?
So, this fact is a clear answer to the BUK-theory provided by the “russian-side”.
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