Not clear which separatists? Could be the three Baltic mini-states that were so anxious to shoot themselves in the foot and depopulate by ruining their economies? But at least they have their own Nazi flags to wave. Maybe the Kurds? Didn’t work out too well for them to date. Catalonia? Spanish Civil War version 2? Yugoslavia? More little mini-statelets waving their own flags over their impoverished economies. Chechnya? Doing a lot better as part of Mother Russia now that the war is over. Crimes, Donetsk, and Luhansk? Crimea is doing well, but they really didn’t break away to become independent statelets, but rather to rejoin Mother Russia, and become part of a bigger and richer country. Here in Canada we have the perennial Quebec separatists which have narrowly lost a couple of referendums, our local version of the Baltics.
Waving their own silly little flag is very appealing to would-be Presidents and other nationalist politicians who think they will personally become more powerful, but rarely benefits the people who live in the now broken state with its broken economy and now hostile neighbours.
It ain’t over till the fat lady sings! In any case, in due time Catalonia must and will be independent of Spain, a state with declining industries headed towards a financial cliff in any case. Despite all of the austerity forced upon the hapless Spanish people, the savings have all gone to pay off Spain’s debt, most of which was brought about when the totally corrupt PP and PSOE parties bailed out their banker friends by having Spain taking on their irresponsible debts (Bankia, etc). Despite all the austerity pain, Spain’s debt has actually shot up. It is unpayable. The real reason for the Catalan situation is humiliation of Catalonia over a new autonomy deal by PP plus the money running out as a result of the 2008-2009 financial crisis. Spain can and will never pay off its debts to the eurobankers but without being able to milk Catalonia , the day of reckoning will happen much sooner. Without Catalonia, Spain is more like Greece than Portugal. At least Portugal overcame the usury forced upon them by the EU. Spain couldn’t.
I would like to refute point by point your comments with facts, it would be real easy, but…
I wouldn’t spend the effort, I will only write… if according to you “Without Catalonia, Spain is more like Greece” … then Catalonia would be… Zimbabwe?
I’d like to see you do that too. Usually when someone says “I’d like to,but”. That means they really can’t,but claims they can anyway. So I’d say if you really can “do it”.Inquiring minds want to see the facts that refute what was said. The economic points on austerity that he made are pretty common knowledge (I’m seen Spaniards talk about them before).And as for the Greek comment he stated.For years their have been articles in the press about the Southern European regions being only a few steps away from the Greek problem.So nothing strange there as well.But yes,if you have facts that deny all that,feel free to show us.
…”a state with declining industries headed towards a financial cliff in any case”…
this is just an opinion, Spain is much better that any other Southern European Country, even Italy, which was close to be rescued. Look at the economic data in wikipedia (because I am not posting here 20 links) recession yes, but things were recovering steadily, from industrial production to unemployment. Nothing different as what is happening all over the EU
…”Despite all of the austerity forced upon the hapless Spanish people, the savings have all gone to pay off Spain’s debt”…
As of now I haven´t heard or seen nobody that have lost his savings. If you mean some speculative inversions that got busted,that is another thing, because some speculative investors got busted when the banks got their problems.
About the austerity measures… not even close to what happened in Greece or Portugal, please…
…”most of which was brought about when the totally corrupt PP and PSOE parties bailed out their banker friends by having Spain taking on their irresponsible debts (Bankia, etc).”…
what happened is also nothing new, because it has been happening all over Western Countries. It is named Privatization of benefits, Socialization of losses. Open your eyes, look around… yes is happening all over, sorry.
…“Despite all the austerity pain, Spain’s debt has actually shot up. It is unpayable”…
this is some kind of oximoron… how can be austerity measures with an skyrocketing debt?
It is as much payable as the one of Germany, France, the UK, the US… again you can find the data in the Wikipedia. It is still much smaller that half the EU Contries.
…“The real reason for the Catalan situation is humiliation of Catalonia over a new autonomy deal by PP plus the money running out as a result of the 2008-2009 financial crisis”…
Sorry I can only say that this sentence is just the Crap the Sececionist Rebels are throving out, utterly nonsense. Nobody is humilliating Catalonia, there was no deal in progress… unless you count the insatiable demands of the nationalist government in Barcelona as a “Deal”
The crissis affected all spaniards equally, this guys just want MORE privileges, which in a modern day Democracy are quite incongruent. (again Wikipedia, spanish debt by region might help)
…“Spain can (not?) and will never pay off its debts to the eurobankers but without being able to milk Catalonia , the day of reckoning will happen much sooner. Without Catalonia, Spain is more like Greece than Portugal. At least Portugal overcame the usury forced upon them by the EU. Spain couldn’t.”…
Why not? Because you say so. Again you are repeating the Vomited Arguments of the sececionists. The possibilities and capabilities of Spain to pay its debts are similar to their neighboring countries.
if anyone is trembling their day of reckoning are the Generalitat in Catalonia which would be Banckrupt three times were not the central government in Madrid come to the rescue.
Look into Wikipedia, Spain economy by region. You might be surprised to discover what the Catalans really produce and what not, and what is their real contribution to the spanish economy. about the debt I made a mention above , and … Oh my God!!! Much less now that about 1700 enterprises (by now) have left the Region and will not pay Taxes and make their acountabilities there (enterprises that produce and or sell in other spanish regions, but made their account books and payed their taxes in Barcelona)
a pity that those lessons were not learned… (do you remember what happened with the Quebec Referendum… even the Bank of Montral have its seat in Toronto. Same thing here)
Were Catalonia to be out of Spain (which I doubt will happen in this way) I think it would actually be a good thing for Spain (minus Catalonia) if done within the mark of a mutual agreement.
To the Anonymous Spaniards, to answer your points about my points
1. …”Despite all of the austerity forced upon the hapless Spanish people, the savings have all gone to pay off Spain’s debt”…
As of now I haven´t heard or seen nobody that have lost his savings. If you mean some speculative inversions that got busted,that is another thing, because some speculative investors got busted when the banks got their problems.
Obviously, you failed to understand English. The austerity forced upon the Spaniards meant that there was less money for social services, etc. The money that would have gone to said social services went to service Spain’s ridiculous debt.
2.
…”most of which was brought about when the totally corrupt PP and PSOE parties bailed out their banker friends by having Spain taking on their irresponsible debts (Bankia, etc).”…
what happened is also nothing new, because it has been happening all over Western Countries. It is named Privatization of benefits, Socialization of losses. Open your eyes, look around… yes is happening all over, sorry. I never said it was only happening in Spain but it is simply unacceptable since Spain had not been under such a debt burden until PP , like other craven parties in the Western World, bailed out their good buddies.
3.
…“Despite all the austerity pain, Spain’s debt has actually shot up. It is unpayable”…
this is some kind of oximoron… how can be austerity measures with an skyrocketing debt?
It is as much payable as the one of Germany, France, the UK, the US… again you can find the data in the Wikipedia. It is still much smaller that half the EU Contries.
Once again, your misunderstanding of English is readily apparent. The Spanish government was order to slash the budget drastically. What was done with the money? Pay off the ridiculous external debt. Has it gone down? No! Spain’s external debt has actually gone up! Explain that one, if you can.
4.
…“The real reason for the Catalan situation is humiliation of Catalonia over a new autonomy deal by PP plus the money running out as a result of the 2008-2009 financial crisis”…
Sorry I can only say that this sentence is just the Crap the Sececionist Rebels are throving out, utterly nonsense. Nobody is humilliating Catalonia, there was no deal in progress… unless you count the insatiable demands of the nationalist government in Barcelona as a “Deal”
The crissis affected all spaniards equally, this guys just want MORE privileges, which in a modern day Democracy are quite incongruent. (again Wikipedia, spanish debt by region might help)
The new estatut deal was a deal forged by the PSOE Catalan leader Maragall and the PSOE Spanish leader Zapatero. PSOE can hardly be called a Catalan nationalist party. This new estatut was voted on in both parliaments and passed a referendum. PP took the deal to the Constitutional Court where they had more pull. It finally ruled on it, throwing out many parts which were okay in the Valencia estatut. The popular will of the Catalan people as reflected by the Catalan parliament and the referendum (I’m talking about the new estatut here) was thrown overboard.
5.
…“Spain can (not?) and will never pay off its debts to the eurobankers but without being able to milk Catalonia , the day of reckoning will happen much sooner. Without Catalonia, Spain is more like Greece than Portugal. At least Portugal overcame the usury forced upon them by the EU. Spain couldn’t.”…
Why not? Because you say so. Again you are repeating the Vomited Arguments of the sececionists. The possibilities and capabilities of Spain to pay its debts are similar to their neighboring countries.
Not me. Spain’s debt has reached nearly 100% of GNP. Without Catalonia, it would be far worse. In any case, Spain is no different from the likes of Belgium or even the USA. Their external debt is also , ultimately, unpayable. What can’t be paid won’t be paid. Spain, like other PIIGS, will ultimately default. Sorry for the bad news but it is well by anyone paying attention to the Ponzi economy as practiced in the West.
6.
if anyone is trembling their day of reckoning are the Generalitat in Catalonia which would be Banckrupt three times were not the central government in Madrid come to the rescue.
I agree to a point here. Our Basque Government has managed the Basque economy far better than the Catalans or the Spaniards (debt shot up in the Basque Country when an inept, useless PSOE / PP government was undemocratically forced on us for 3 years but debt is now back under control ). Spaniards love to look down on Basques as a small , unimportant minority but we know that we live far better than Deep Spain. We don’t have your ridiculous corruption levels (Gürtel, Barcenas double entry booking keeping, etc) and don’t spend money on airports without planes, useless roundabouts everywhere whether needed or not, or showy exhibition sites now falling apart. The Catalans were as corrupt as the worst Spaniard and this must be admitted. A good solution would be for Spain to be given an article 155 and be administered from the Basque Country :-) Thank God we don’t have to throw so much of our tax money down the rathole known as the Central Spanish Government. It explains why we are so much better off.
Look, it is in our interest for the Spanish economy to be going well but it isn’t, despite all that PP might say. In Deep Spain, the youth unemployment is 40% or more in many areas. The effect of the eurozone means that there has been an internal devaluation with the result of wages falling. Your Spanish , Castilian, Andalusian, etc. leaders failed to usher in real education, training in Deep Spain when times were good and EU money was pouring in. We Basques had to close down our shipyards, steel mills , in effect, we had to reinvent ourselves and we did . What did you Spaniards do in the meantime ? You misspent most of it and millions of Spaniards , left unemployed by the collapse of construction, are idle, unable to even emigrate unless they are well educated and with a knowledge of foreign languages (Basques and Catalans are far better at languages than Spaniards, generally speaking , so maybe our languages are not as worthless as many Spanish say). I really feel sorry for them as there is no solution. I hope I’m wrong.
Yes, technically I am a Spaniard but when traveling I always say I am Basque. That always irks Spaniards but readily accepted by Europeans. Funny that Scots can say they’re Scottish and not have to say their British. Anyway, It is a shame to be part of a sinking ship, to be controlled by a country less developed than our own but we’ll eventually be independent one day in the future. As we say in our dear Basque, Ezina Ekinaz Egina! Have at it and have it! Peace and thanks to the Saker for providing the platform to debate.
“… how can be austerity measures with an skyrocketing debt? It is as much payable as the one of Germany, France, the UK, the US…”
Which means… not payable at all, right, Anon? Whether it’s the EU banks’ euros, the Bank of England’s pounds, or the Federal Reserve’s dollars, how can anyone pay off debt money with more debt money…?
“When our Federal Government, that has the exclusive power to create money, creates that money and then goes into the open market and borrows it and pays interest for the use of its own money, it occurs to me that that is going too far. I have never yet had anyone who could, through the use of logic and reason, justify the Federal Government borrowing the use of its own money.”
~ US Congressman Wright Patman, 1941
In an earlier post, Terry said that, “Waving their own silly little flag is very appealing to would-be Presidents… but rarely benefits the people who live in the now broken state with its broken economy and now hostile neighbours.” That’s because the bankster empire’s control stems from control of money. If separatists continue using the banksters’ money, their economy will remain broken. And if separatists start controlling their own money to the people’s benefit, the banksters rile up the hostile neighbors to correct that.
I am not sure which path Catalonia will choose (talk of remaining in the EU makes the former look more likely), yet it is still incredibly important to be mindful of the world elites’ goals lest they use us as their… falling anvils…
There are pretty huge pro-unity demonstrations right now in Barcelona and elsewhere. The entire government has gone home. Puigdemont is keeping as low a profile as he can and probably would like to disappear inside some big bushes for a while. Belgium has offered him assylum if he is “unjustly” prosecuted for the mess he helped create https://www.rt.com/newsline/408134-catalan-leader-political-asylum/
With some luck he will avoid going to prison. The independentists in the streets appear rather crestfallen, it looks like they realized they have been used and betrayed by the politicians, who didn’t even have the guts to proclaim a republic openly or vote openly for independence and had to change the format at the last second to vote “secretly” while all the opposition had left the chamber in disgust. The non-independent segment of the population (a majority) have woken from their slumber. They are not hiding anymore. Seldom have we witnessed a more botched, ameteurish and clownish operation as this independence run. There will be elections in December. Not under a new state, which does not exist.
If Catalonia break out of Spain and if Catalonia stay in the EU as the indepentist wish than Catalonia will be a net contributor to the EU budget (like France , Germany , Uk and the netherland). So instead of giving money away to your fellow country mates you will be giving money away to Bulgarian Pole and Estonian.
Not only the reason you give for breaking away is at best very selfish, it’s like if the Paris region want to break away from France because it is the richest, but acquiring independence doesn’t get rid of the problem in fact it makes it worse.
After weeks of lost chances by the Spanish regime to negotiate, Catalonia has declared Independence today. Instead of looking for a peaceful route out of the dispute through talks. Madrid going back to their Franco past chose the Ukrainian solution. They’ve used terror to try and prevent a referendum in Catalonia.They failed to a great extent. They’ve used threats and arrests.And now they are trying to strip Catalonia of its regional rights.Its as if they called Kiev and asked for advise on how to destroy unity in their country. Its almost certain they will now order in troops to crush the region.Which will almost certainly spark open rebellion and guerrilla war in Catalonia.More than likely it will spread to some of the other regions as well.The Basque region and probably Valencia would be my guess. Once a regime turns its military against those they claim are their own citizens they lose all credibility with those very citizens. You would think with the example of Donbass staring them in the face.The Madrid regime would have been smarter than that.But now we will see they aren’t.
look Bob, I am a Spaniard, and like much of the Spaniards I am tired to explain that the things there (in Spain) are quite different as they show them in the MSM internationally. In this blog, some non-spanish readers seems to follow old topics and a biased vision of Spain, as if we were still living the in the past (middle ages, and so on till Franco) it is as if I were to start writing about the problems of the US because of the politics of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the American Civil War or Far West colonization… that might be ok to use as historical reference, or studing the roots of some (not all) Problems in the US… but somewhat incoherent to use to justify what is happening now.
Please read all the articles that have been submitted on this blog about what is happening in Catalonia/Spain – from all sides, before making unilateral statements about commenters (some removed). Spanish?.Mod
You are following arguments (Violence of the Government, threats, Terror… etc) that are False, but are being spread by the sececionist rebels, also much is taken out of context, or not considered in their totallity.
What is happening there, wouldn’t be tolerated nowhere in the Western Democratic World, not to mention other not so Democratic places.
it is a Rebellion of a part of a country, not even that… a part of a part of a country, because they are not a clear majority even in Catalonia, as I am sure the next elections will show.
There are some hidden interest behind all this, and we will not know them in the short term, maybe in a decade or two.
No rebellion succeeds without being a bloody armed rebellion, and not even that it is a warrant of succeess. There is not going to be a civil war, just some police actions. Because the moment the rebels use a weapon, and blood is spilled on the floor, they will loose all legitimacy and will be named terrorists. They do not have the stomach for that. People live quite comfortably there.
About your guess of guerrilla there spilling into Pays Basque or Valencia… pffff… sure, and the general Franco is coming to Madrid from the south. damn Fascists!
I have followed a great deal of the discussion on this blog concerning events in Catalonia.
Nevertheless, I cannot get a clear picture as to which party–Catalonian secessionists or Madrid—represents the best interests of both Spain and the Catalonians.
I see arguments that support all positions (these seem to be the main three options):
Best for all if Spain stays unitary
Best for Catalonians if Catalonia separates and remains outside the corrupt EU.
Best for Catalonians and Europe if Catalonia separates and joins EU.
To me, it seems like it is best if all parties try to set aside the events of the past—despite the many injustices and frustrations—and focus on the current and future circumstances. Unlike in the past, the EU exists as the context within these events are occurring. Regarding the situation of Spain qua Spain and Spain qua member of EU. There is so much volatility already in the EU. Is it good, or bad, to add to the existing volatility? I don’t know. Some would say: Pile on volatility—then the whole system will really be shaken up.
Regardless of how one feels about these options, I myself feel that it was a gross misstep by the govt. to engage the separatists with violence and intransigence instead of dialogue and talk. Instead of pouring oil on troubled waters, they have poured fuel on the flames—to mix a metaphor. This seems to have created a whole new round and layer of grievances and vastly complicated the whole situation for everyone.
First of all,I support Spain staying united. But it is the Spanish regime that is creating the problem. The facts are that Catalonia (the majority Catalans in the region),are a thousand year (plus) old ethnic group. That has a language and culture different from the Castilian one. They are close in many ways I agree.But still different. Spain needs to accept that,and give them autonomy if they want to hold a united Spain.Throughout their history there have been revolts against their inclusion in Spain. Some off them epic revolts.This crisis is not new,or made-up one,as most pro-Spanish posters want us to believe. It is a historic crisis.A simple reading of history shows that. Spain is making all the mistakes that the junta in Ukraine made.They need to stop before they destroy any hope of a untied Spain.
As to your claims that most people don’t want independence. You may be right,we don’t know.What we do know is that over 80% of people there wanted a referendum.We do know that before the Spanish regime used terror to stop it,around 45% of people were able to vote.And the vast majority of those voted yes to independence. Would the other 55% had voted “no” as the pro-Spanish regime people say? We don’t know,because the Spanish regime crushed the voting.Commonsense tells me if they thought they would win the vote.They wouldn’t have done that,but we can’t be sure. The party in power in the Spanish regime has ties to the old Franco regime. That is a fact,not opinion.So your attempt at humor,has more truth than you should be happy with.
But here is the bottom-line.The Spanish regime needs to stop the lies.Wake up to the fact that they “themselves” are causing Spain to break-up.And instead of using force,start talking.If they don’t,there may very well be no going back for them.And Spain will become another Ukraine.The Spanish themselves should understand what they are doing to themselves. But like so many Ukrainians they don’t seem to understand until its too late.
(Sidenote: The current Spanish regime ruling party,the Peoples Party.Was founded first as the Peoples Alliance in 1976. Changing its name to Peoples Party in 1989 “The seven founders were Manuel Fraga, Laureano López Rodó, Cruz Martínez Esteruelas (es), Federico Silva Muñoz (es), Gonzalo Fernández de la Mora, Licinio de la Fuente (es) and Enrique Thomas de Carranza (es). Out of the seven founders the first 6 had held cabinet-level offices during the dictatorship of Francisco Franco. The odd one, Thomas de Carranza, had also been part of the Francoist administration.[8] “. I think that should put to rest whether are not the current regime has a Franco past.So hopefully people will stop the attempts to deny it. Its too easy to prove for that to work.
…“First of all, I support Spain staying united. But it is the Spanish regime that is creating the problem. The facts are that Catalonia (the majority Catalans in the region), are a thousand year (plus) old ethnic group. That has a language and culture different from the Castilian one. They are close in many ways I agree. But still different. Spain needs to accept that, and give them autonomy if they want to hold a united Spain. Throughout their history there have been revolts against their inclusion in Spain. Some off them epic revolts. This crisis is not new, or made-up one, as most pro-Spanish posters want us to believe. It is a historic crisis. A simple reading of history shows that. Spain is making all the mistakes that the junta in Ukraine made. They need to stop before they destroy any hope of a untied Spain.”…
They accept their “differential fact”, they have autonomy since 1978. There haven’t been that much revolts (that is propaganda) it is true that they fight for a different pretending king In the Secession war, just to maintain their privileged status. And that they continued fighting even when the Austrian candidate simple left. Also, their part in the civil war is full of contradictions. Their behavior (like the one of the Basque) was one of the worst causes that the Spanish Republic lose the civil war.
What you doesn`t seem to understand is that the Catalonian society it is not monolithic or homogeneous.
…“As to your claims that most people don’t want independence. You may be right, we don’t know. What we do know is that over 80% of people there wanted a referendum. We do know that before the Spanish regime used terror to stop it, around 45% of people were able to vote. “…
Sorry but even the international observers that the Catalonian nationalist contracted to certify the Referendum couldn`t say it was a clean, well-organized, serious election. They were of course dismissed and ignored, because what they said was an inconvenient truth.
Would you like the pictures of the guys that voted 5 times…? or the fantastic recount that gives a 103% of all votes when added…?
The fact is that it was a fake illegal election. Whose objective was the staged fight of democrats against the Spanish brutality… a 1000 wounded… (they counted as wounded even persons that rang the hospital from home saying they were very upset. It was all staged. Fake pics, fake videos, etc.) I am not saying that some police behave bad, but look at any protest in Western countries and it is not much more or extraordinary than other countries made.
…“And the vast majority of those voted yes to independence. Would the other 55% had voted “no” as the pro-Spanish regime people say? We don’t know, because the Spanish regime crushed the voting. Commonsense tells me if they thought they would win the vote. They wouldn’t have done that,but we can’t be sure. The party in power in the Spanish regime has ties to the old Franco regime. That is a fact, not opinion. So your attempt at humor, has more truth than you should be happy with.”…
You are again falling into the rhetoric and arguments of the rebels… if they crushed the voting how it is possible 2 millions voted (according to the independentist)
This nationalist rebels are since 40 years about 45-48% turnout of any election, when you add them all. The tendency is even slowly decreasing. They are just becoming more radicalized. The historic of the elections is there to see. The problem is that it was (the referendum) declared illegal by the supreme court, and people who respect the rule of law are not to break it. So about 55% of the voters ignored it. These “freedom fighters” simply ignore the law at their best convenience. 80% of 45% is about 35 % of all voters, which is quite consistent with the real ideology of people in Catalonia. There is now an election scheduled for December. And surely people will vote en-masse (they usually do not, because the turnout in Catalonia is quite low) these guys simply went too far. We will see them what happens.
About the links with Franco… well all parties have a link with the past, do you want we speak about Esquerra and their “revolutionary crazy frency in the civil war” not to mention that the catalanist right parties (Convergencia I Unio, now PdeCat) have also very strong links to Franco, why do you think they become so wealthy after the civil war. And off course Socialist Party with Soviet Union, Paracuellos Massacre… want me to keep going? Only Ciudadanos and the new extreme left are clean of Past. Because they are new parties.
…“But here is the bottom-line.The Spanish regime needs to stop the lies.Wake up to the fact that they “themselves” are causing Spain to break-up.And instead of using force,start talking.If they don’t,there may very well be no going back for them.And Spain will become another Ukraine.The Spanish themselves should understand what they are doing to themselves. But like so many Ukrainians they don’t seem to understand until its too late.”…
Again this is just BS. Sorry, the problems haven´t been because of the central government. They have been because of the insatiable demands of the nationalist. What more they want? We can not keep going with this forever. The problem is that Spain needs a renovation of its Structures and Autonomies (which a majority of Spanish thinks are the worst thing because it is craziness) even ending them.
…”(Sidenote: The current Spanish regime ruling party,the Peoples Party.Was founded first as the Peoples Alliance in 1976. Changing its name to Peoples Party in 1989 “The seven founders were Manuel Fraga, Laureano López Rodó, Cruz Martínez Esteruelas (es), Federico Silva Muñoz (es), Gonzalo Fernández de la Mora, Licinio de la Fuente (es) and Enrique Thomas de Carranza (es). Out of the seven founders the first 6 had held cabinet-level offices during the dictatorship of Francisco Franco. The odd one, Thomas de Carranza, had also been part of the Francoist administration.[8] “. I think that should put to rest whether are not the current regime has a Franco past.So hopefully people will stop the attempts to deny it. Its too easy to prove for that to work.”…
All those people are dead, and that was 40 years ago… do you think that the party have the same ideology of those people, that it haven`t evolved to more modern and democratic positions. That is nonsense. The PP is more like the CDU in Germany or Conservative Party in the UK. We do not go all day saying that CDU is nazi . do we?
The problem with the past is that everybody have one. As I said before, look who were the people in Esquerra (for example) and what they did. And the links between extremist left parties and Venezuela, Iran, Soros, etc. are there to see If you want to see them.
Much of what you say or write it is just the propaganda and BS the Rebels are spreading (and they have been spreading it for a long time) look other sources, read other newspapers, there are more versions, maybe then can you have a more balanced vision of what is happening.
Catalonia only became united with Castile with the death of King Ferdinand.With his daughter by Isabella,inheriting his Kingdom of Aragon including the Principality of Catalonia . This was purely a dynastic union.In that both areas were considered separate countries ruled by the same royal family.Like Scotland and English before their union of the 18th century.And the different Kingdoms of the Hapsburg Empire.In many areas of the medieval world (Bohemia being a good example),a ruler had to accept the “rights and privileges” of that region before they could claim the throne. So yes they wanted their “privileges” as you say.You seem to imply something is wrong with that.But instead it was normal throughout Europe.The Castilian government tried for centuries to abolish those rights.And force Catalonia into being only another province in their empire.Whenever they were strong they could do it.But whenever they were less strong Catalonia rebelled. You seem fixated on the War of the Spanish Secession revolt. But that was only one of several.Pretty much one or more every century. With the 1640 revolt probably being the largest.But either way what that shows is that the Catalans never happily accepted outside rule.I don’t really know what you hope to gain from denying facts so easily proved.I suppose you count on most readers not knowing history enough to see your misinformation.
So lets read a little real history for a minute: ” The Principality of Catalonia saw a prosperous period at the end of the 13th century and the beginning of the 14th. The population increased; Catalan culture expanded into the islands of the Western Mediterranean. The reign of Peter III of Aragon (“the Great”) included the conquest of Sicily and the successful defense against a French crusade; his son and successor Alfonso (“the Generous”) conquered Menorca; and Peter’s second son James II, who first acceded to the throne of Sicily and then succeeded his older brother as king of Aragon, conquered Sardinia; under James II, and Catalonia was the center of the flourishing Aragonese empire.”
“At the same time, the Principality of Catalonia developed a complex institutional and political system based in the concept of a pact between the estates of the realm and the king. Laws had to be approved in the General Court of Catalonia, one of the first parliamentary bodies of Europe that banned the royal power to create legislation unilaterally, since 1283.[6] The Courts were composed of the three estates, were presided over by the king of Aragon, and approved the constitutions, which created a compilation of rights for the citizenship of the Principality. In order to collect general taxes, the Courts of 1359 established a permanent representation of deputies, called Deputation of the General (Catalan: Diputació del General) and later sometimes known as Generalitat, which gained an important political power in the next centuries.”
“The Reapers’ War (Catalan: Guerra dels Segadors, 1640–52) started as an uprising of peasants in Barcelona. Conflicts had already arisen between Catalonia and the monarchy in the time of Philip II. Having exhausted the economic resources of Castile, Philip wished to avail himself of those of Catalonia; the Catalan governmental institutions and laws were well protected by the terms of union of the kingdoms, and were jealously guarded by the Catalan population,”
“The resulting Spanish War of Succession (1702–14) may have benefitted Charles’s foreign allies but was a disaster for the Catalans, Valencians and Aragonese. The Treaty of Utrecht (1713–14) ended the possibility of Barcelona’s resistance to Bourbon rule, which it surrendered on 11 September 1714. The Bourbon king, determined to punish what he saw as sedition from Catalonia and Valencia established the Nueva Planta decree (1716), abolishing the Catalan constitutions and with it the Catalan and Valencian parliaments and rights and established a new territorial structure. He suppressed the Catalan universities (Barcelona University moved to Cervera) and abolished the administrative use of the Catalan language; half a century later, the Catalan language would also be banned from primary and secondary schools.”
“The reign of Ferdinand VII (reigned 1808–33) saw several Catalan uprisings and after his death the conflict over the succession between the absolutist “Carlist” partisans of Infante Carlos and the liberal partisans of Isabella II led to the First Carlist War, which lasted until 1840 and was especially virulent in the Catalan territory. As with the Basques, many of the Catalans fought on the Carlist side, not because they supported absolute monarchy, but because they hoped that restoration of the Old Regime would mean restoration of their fueros and recovery of regional autonomy.”
“As in the rest of Spain, the Franco era (1939–1975) in Catalonia saw the annulment of democratic liberties, the prohibition and persecution of parties, the rise of thoroughgoing censorship, and the banning of all leftist institutions. In Catalonia it also meant, yet again, the annulment of the Statute of Autonomy, the banning of the whole specifically Catalan institutions. During the first years, all resistance was energetically suppressed, the prisons filled up with political prisoners, and thousands of Catalans went into exile. In addition, 4000 Catalans were executed between 1938 and 1953, among them the former president of the Generalitat Lluís Companys (taken to Spain from his exile in the German-occupied France).”
“CATALANIA DECLARED INDEPENDENCE [15] The independence motion was passed on 27. October 2017 in the 135-strong Catalan assembly with 70 votes in favour, 10 against and two blank ballots, the assembly’s speaker said. 16% of Spain’s population live in Catalonia, and these people produce: 25.6% of Spain’s exports, 19% of Spain’s GDP, 20.7% of foreign investment – all reasons why the central government doesn’t want to loose their rule over Catalonia.
Just hours after the Catalan declaration of independence, the Spanish Senate invoked Art 155 of the Spanish constitution and authorised Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy’s government to impose direct rule over Catalonia. Rajoy declared the dissolution of the Catalan parliament and dismissed Catalonia’s regional government, including its leader, Carles Puigdemont. Rajoy called a snap election in the region for 21. December 2017.
Spanish Deputy Prime Minister Soraya Saenz de Santamaria was chosen to assume the position of President of Catalonia, as part of the actions that resulted after the activation of Article 155. Santamaria was vested total control over the Catalan administration in addition to being appointed president. Josep Lluis Trapero was also relieved of his duty as chief of the Catalan police force.
But Catalans are fiercely protective of the region’s high degree of autonomy, such as direct control over education, healthcare and the police. Mossos d’Esquadra, a group of Catalonia’s police force favouring independence, has already said its members will not follow instructions from the central government of Spain and will not use force to remove ministers and legislators from power.”
As to your claim that because the main fascist founders of the current Spanish PM’s party are dead. That somehow changes them. I can’t believe you actually said that. Since Hitler is dead now. Would a new set of nazi leaders “somehow” make that party acceptable again.I doubt it,but that is the kind of argument you are making,pretty sad really.
You have not explained at which point Catalonia became independent from the Crown of Aragon. That Crown included the current autonomous regions of Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia.
Yes, the laws of the crown of Aragon were different from the laws of Castile, which in turn were different from the laws of Navarre. And within Aragon, you could have different rules and privileges from one principality or kingdom to another. It was normal for monarchs ruling over various contiguous territories to swear to uphold such local laws. This was the case in all of Europe. It did not prevent power from being increasingly centralized over aggregate territories. This process in Spain and France was underway by the early 16th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain#Imperial_Spain:
As Renaissance New Monarchs, Isabella and Ferdinand centralised royal power at the expense of local nobility, and the word España, whose root is the ancient name Hispania, began to be commonly used to designate the whole of the two kingdoms.[47] With their wide-ranging political, legal, religious and military reforms, Spain emerged as the first world power.
The unification of the crowns of Aragon and Castile by the marriage of their sovereigns laid the basis for modern Spain and the Spanish Empire, although each kingdom of Spain remained a separate country, in social, political, laws, currency and language.[48][49]
47 Rinehart, Robert; Seeley, Jo Ann Browning (1998). “A Country Study: Spain – The Golden Age”. Library of Congress Country Series. Retrieved 9 August 2008.
48 “Imperial Spain”. University of Calgary. Archived from the original on 29 June 2008. Retrieved 13 August 2008.
49 Handbook of European History. Books.google.es. 1994. ISBN 9004097600. Retrieved 26 April 2013.
As far as I know, no exercise of state power centralized in one person was occurring between Scotland and England before their union of the 18th century. In fact, they were often fighting. So your claim that it was the same is rather odd.
In your narrative, Catalonia goes from being part of the Crown of Aragon to being on its own. But when was it on its own? There was the revolt in 1640 (backed by the French) whereupon it asked for protection from the king of France. Of course protection comes at a price, so the king of France proceeded to occupy Catalonia in order to protect it. As a result the Catalonians were much unhappier than before. This lasted for about a decade. Olivares knew the Catalans were unhappy under the French and took it back, so it went back to Spain after the Franco-Spanish war. Once that war was over, Spain and France signed the treaty of the Pyrenees, whereby France kept the part of Catalonia north of the Pyrenees.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Spanish_War_(1635%E2%80%9359) The French, weakened by the Fronde, were unable to hold Catalonia against reconquest by the Spanish forces; the French cause was undermined when the Catalans discovered that the French were even more overbearing than their former Spanish Habsburg masters, and many switched their loyalty back to the chastened regime in Madrid. […] The remnants of Catalan resistance and the depleted French forces in Barcelona surrendered to Spanish Habsburg forces in October 1652
And of course revolts within Spain were not limited to Catalonia.
Castile had a big revolt, called the revolt of the Comuneros, from 1520 to 1521. There were also revolts in the kingdom of Valencia around the same time, both in Valencia and Majorca, called the revolt of the Brotherhoods.
In fact revolts and rebellions by local kingdoms, principalities, nobilities, were rampant all over Europe pretty much all the time.
And so was legislative and administrative discontinuity within the same state. For example in France, up until the end of the 18th century:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_modern_France The administrative and social structures of the Ancien Régime were the result of years of state-building, legislative acts internal conflicts and civil wars, but they remained a confusing patchwork of local privilege and historic differences until the French Revolution took place in a radical time suppression of administrative incoherence.
The point I am trying to make is that, historically, there is nothing *more unique* about Catalonia in any of these matters, than about many different regions currently within other European states, regions which also have their own unique identity and history and language. If there was (something so uniquely unique) then you would have to think that the French Catalans of the Roussillon would be entitled to exactly the same independence claims. Do they make those claims? Perhaps some do, but not in any significant numbers, just like Catalan independentism in Spain did not become a significant issue until pretty recently. The Carlist succession wars in the 19th century were civil wars that had nothing to do with independentism. There were Catalans on both sides.
Now, to the question, what conditions would justify the granting of independence to a region within current Europe?
Here is a couple of excerpts from:
“Catalonian Independence and the European Union” (2012)
by Joseph Wailer, 2012
The author is editor-in-chief of the European Journal of International Law, and professor of international law at various universities.
https://www.ejiltalk.org/catalonian-independence-and-the-european-union/ Feeding this frenzy for secession and independence in Europe is the premise that all these new states will somehow find a safe haven as Member States of the European Union. Absent that assumption, appetite for independence would be significantly muted, the rough seas of ‘going it alone’ far more threatening. The Canadian Supreme Court, in its careful and meticulous decision on Quebec the reasoning of which remains valid today, clearly showed that none of these cases enjoy a right of secession under public international law, since all of them enjoy extensive individual and collective liberties enabling the full vindication of their national and/or cultural identity within their respective states.
[…]
But the issue is not one of rights, of law. It is simply ethically demoralizing to see the likes of Catalonia reverting to an early 20th-century post-World War I mentality, when the notion that a single state could encompass more than one nationality seemed impossible – hence the special treaties on minorities which abounded in the break-up of the Ottoman and the Austro-Hungarian Empires. These arrangements were well-intentioned but lacking in political imagination and eventually, let us not hide the ugly facts, feeding and leading to that poisonous logic of national purity and ethnic cleansing. Make no mistake, I am not suggesting for one minute that anyone in Catalonia is an ethnic cleanser. But I am suggesting that the ‘go it alone’ mentality is associated with that kind of mindset.
[…]
It is sometimes said that the principles of democracy and self-determination require decision by referendum. But this of course begs the question of who is the ‘political self’ that has the right to determine whether or not the historical nation – even if composed of several peoples – will be broken up and secession allowed. Do we allow every distinct national, cultural and linguistic ‘minority’ in Europe to hold a referendum about secession and independence? The Corsicans? the Bretons? The Welsh? The German speakers of the Alto Adige? The list is endless, given the wonderful cultural richness of Europe. Why should it not be the French as a whole, or the British as a whole, or the Italians as a whole who get to decide the future of their state? Why should it be the Catalans rather than, perhaps, all citizens of Spain who get to decide about the breakup of the Kingdom? There is no self-evident answer to this question. I would argue that it is only under conditions of political and cultural veritable repression that a case for regional referenda can convincingly be made. With its extensive (even if deeply flawed) Statute of Autonomy it is simply laughable and impossible to take seriously Catalan arguments for independence […]
I would be extremely supportive of Catalan independence if I cold see that what they are trying to do is get real independence from the current hugely unfair political and financial structure of the EU. And if I felt they could make it. But that’s not what I am seeing at all. This is a feud between elites fighting about how the pie is to be shared and eaten. I am afraid the result for common people both in Catalonia and in the rest of Spain would be an enormous disaster. Even without a fragmentation it is going to be bad. What I would like is for Spain as a whole to bring down the whole rotten system, get out of the EU, and try to be really independent as a Federal Republic or something like that.
As I’ve said before.I don’t support independence for Catalonia. I think they should be autonomous. I feel the same about the Scotland issue. But it doesn’t matter what I think about the issue,or the pro-Spanish posters on here. It only matters what the Catalans think about it. The argument about letting the whole country vote on letting a part of it go.Is just silly beyond words.Its the argument always used by those “against” letting part of the country because independent.Of course the majority in the country would vote “no” on that question.That is why there is a large country to start with. A majority of people wanted to be joined together.Would you or I let our neighbors vote on the color of paint I used in my bedroom.Or the size of TV in my living room. What you should have for dinner.Or which websites I should go to on the internet.I don’t think I would permit that.So why would the Catalans accept being told by outsiders if they could be free or not.
The question of freedom for Catalonia,is for the Catalans only to decide,no one else. If Spain wants to keep Catalonia a part of Spain.Then show them why it is beneficial for Catalonia to continue as part of Spain.Give them a degree of autonomy that makes them feel they are better off being united with Madrid. Using force only shows them they are considered as slaves,the property of Spain.And that can only end in violence and rebellion.Creating independence supporters out of those that only wanted autonomy. Spain has a horrible track record of shooting themselves in the foot in situations like this.In the early 1820’s they lost the America’s like that. The majority of the rebels at first only wanted autonomy and to be represented in the Cortes. But they got a “back of the hand ” from Madrid. And they turned to supporting independence instead. One would think Madrid would have learned from that,but no. When Cuba revolted,the same thing happened. The largest opinion on the island supported autonomy.But Spain refused,only agreeing after it was too late.And most of those wanting autonomy already decided they had to support independence instead. Again one would think Spain would learn from those monumental errors.But no,they never seem to be able to. They are making the same error today in Catalonia.Over 40% as of a few weeks ago supported independence.Another huge number wanted more autonomy,but to remain inside Spain.Now with Spain using force against Catalonia,more and more of those that had supported only autonomy will be outraged.And join the independence side.Once more showing the time honored Spanish ability to make a bad situation worse for themselves.Its probably “still” not too late to change. But once the oppression really starts,and fighting begins.Then it will be too late for them.
Yes, I would agree, somewhat reluctantly, that the decision is only for them to decide. I say reluctantly because if I presented you with some examples, say the port of Houston wishing to secede from the US, or just from Texas, I wonder if you would say so cavalierly that it is only for Houstonians to decide, not for the rest of the state or the country. But assuming that yes, it is only for them to decide, then there has to be some framework to go about these things. It is, after all a very grave decision that will affect the lives of a lot of people. Should it be done on a 50.01% victory for secession?
Then your next point suggests that perhaps more autonomy is the answer. In other words, give them what they want or they leave. A question. Could you name a region in Europe, outside of Spain, where there is more autonomy than in Catalonia? Please name one and explain.
Now to the framework.
First, you consider the cases where there is clear oppression. Once proven that a region is seriously oppressed, that should be enough cause to justify a unilateral secession.
If that is not the case — and definitely here that is not the case — then a good and probably the only extant reference framework would the Clarity Act by the Canadian Supreme court. It tackles the main problem, it being that a separation may often be considered unconstitutional (such as is the case in Canada and Spain) but even in that case a state could not just cling to this unconstitutionality indefinitely, because the position would become untenable. This is what the court considered. And so it gave a framework on how to proceed. It seems fair. You can read the text here. Not too long.
What cannot be allowed is the incredibly slipshod, whimsical, improvisational way of doing things that has been observed in the current case since October 1.
Yes, the central government was at fault to keep insisting that nothing could be done because the thing was unconstitutional. Well, that is solved by amending the constitution if a clear majority should emerge from a referendum.
And then you formulate the question, go through the required agreements on what the results would mean, what would be a clear majority. And then, if the result is a victory for secession, the two sides must sit down and negotiate the terms. Because there is a lot to negotiate in a case like that.
And the central government was also at fault, when after declaring that the referendum was illegal, it tried to stop it by force. It could be that theoretically it had a right to do so, because it was illegal. But ethically and in practice it was a hugely stupid move, especially considering they didn’t have nearly enough policemen to do that. So the result was the grotesque show of October 1st which was a huge gift to the independentists. I was actually incensed and outraged that the government did that.
You are saying that Spain now is “using force” in Catalonia. All right. Other than that ill-conceived attempt at trying to prevent a (repeat) illegal referendum that had repeatedly been declared illegal, where so far have you seen any force used by the central government in Catalonia?
It is particularly odd that you fret so much about that, when you live in a country where the police, aside from behaving with unmatched levels of thuggery and brutality, actually kills nearly 1000 people per year right on the street, execution style, and where the prison system resembles rather a 19th century penal colony for slave work, with the highest rate of incarceration in history, by far, and appallingly inhuman conditions in the privatized prisons, etc etc etc. Can you really sincerely say with a straight face that there is a problem of force right now in Catalonia?
Because after the October 1st nonsense, it looks like they learned from their mistake. You must have noticed there have been no similar scenes since.
This needs to be done properly. Not based on the results of that charade where the other side did not come to vote because they had been told repeatedly not to vote, because it was illegal. So only the independentists voted, and they were the only ones who counted the votes (and could vote as many times as they pleased, if they felt inclined to do so).
What the Catalan Parliament or Government certainly does not have the right to do is declare: we’ll do the referendum our way, whether you like it or not, and if we get 50.01%, off we go. Bye. We don’t care about any legality. FU.
Do you have any idea what the US Federal government would do if any state within the Union tried to pull something like that? I can tell you what. They would not hesitate to actually kill people or bomb buildings if they felt it would help them make a point. So your persistent moaning about this “force” is perplexing. There was some force used on Oct 1st. Mostly unnecessary. Certainly very mild compared with what the Catalan police do during strikes or demonstrations. And what else have you seen?
And the way they’ve been conducting this whole “declaration” part is just ridiculous beyond description. Nobody among them, least of all the President, had the guts to even make a clear proclamation/declaration of independence. A declaration cannot be “implicit” or vague or ambiguous, or surrealistic. It should by definition be as explicit as can be. And then, when it turned out nobody had the guts to make a declaration, they don’t even have the guts to vote openly for independency. They change the format at the last minute, improvising, after all the opposition had left the room, in order to have a “secret” vote. Pathetic.
I actually want this to be resolved in a proper way. If an agreed-on referendum is done, with the compromise of a subsequent Constitutional amendment if the result is a clear Yes, and it turns out that the independentist side wins, I would be very happy to see them go, because in that case it should be clear that it would be the best thing for everybody.
I agree with much of what you wrote,especially the last paragraph. I would say as of now Scotland,Belgium,and maybe Switzerland would be models to look into.As well as some of the republics inside Russia.But right there in Spain,it seems the Basque region has a better arrangement than Catalonia. In fact I remember that was one of the grievances talked about.So yes,there are arrangements short of a breakup that can work.But not unless they are sincere.As to the force issue.Seizing power in Catalonia,firing the regions officials,arresting people.I think that would come under using force.And most of that was done after October 1st.
If you are going to give numbers about people executed during and after the Spanish Civil War, it is a complete mystery why you give only numbers for Catalan victims, unless you want to make it sound as if only Catalonians were executed, or as if that war was especially directed at them. Your attempt to equate the current Spanish government (disgustingly right wing as it is, but no more so than their Catalan counterparts that have been running Catalonia since 1980) with the horrors of what the fascists did in Spain 80 years ago, is completely shameless.
I will give you some numbers so people get the picture. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%ADctimas_de_la_Guerra_Civil_Espa%C3%B1ola
The number of SPANIARDS (from all regions) according to the Wikipedia page, are as follows. Note: the page in Catalan gives the same numbers. No page available in English.
540 000 excess mortality during the war (number of deaths above the number that could be expected from the mortality rate at the beginning of the war)
576 000 fewer births during those years
Estimated total victims from repression: 200,000
(this does NOT include deaths in the front or victims from bombardments etc.)
Of those, 50,000 were murdered in the rear of the Republican (government) zone
100, 000 were murdered in the rear of the rebel (fascist) zone
50,000 were executed after the war
In addition, there is a high number of people disappeared, that cannot be accounted for in any registry. Because of this, Spain, with more than 114 000 people disappeared, is the “second country in the world, after Cambodia, with the highest number of victims of forced disappearances whose remains have not yet been recovered or identified”.
Madrid was under siege from November 1936 to March 1939 when the fascist forces finally were able to take it.
It was pretty liberally bombarded, especially in 1936 and 1937, both from the sky, including German and Italian aviation, and from nearby artillery in Casa de Campo. Only the rich district (barrio de Salamanca) was spared. After that, Soviet fighters generally kept the German aviation away. It was the first major European city to be bombed by aviation.
Barcelona was badly bombarded on 16, 17 and 18 March 1938 by Italian aviation.
The fascist offensive in Catalonia, centered upon the objective of capturing Barcelona, lasted less than 2 months, from December 1938 to February 1939. As soon as Tarragona fell on Jan 14 1939, a kind of human stampede began in Barcelona heading for the French border. A few die-hard communists tried to encourage the people into resisting, but by then everyone understood there was no point in trying to resist. The “No pasarán” stubborness was a Madrid thing, and it didn’t work either. The city of Barcelona was taken at the end of January 1939. It must be said that at that point, it was pretty obvious they didn’t have the means to defend the city.
As could be expected, the Catalan elites and much of the business class snuggled up to the Franco regime. They did the same in Madrid and elsewhere. This had been mostly a class war from the start. Franco led a war of attrition, and his thugs made sure the lesson was well injected in the brains and the bones of everybody for a long time.
It would be appreciated if you made a modest effort not to be so blatantly biased as to give data only about Catalan victims from the civil war, to make it look as if they were the only or the main victims of that war. Or as if that war was directed specifically against them. Or to refer to civil wars of succession in which Catalans participated on both sides, as wars of secession and so on.
You “might” not have noticed but the link said “History of Catalonia”. So that is why it only gave executed Catalans.Hopefully that clears up that “mystery” as you say. A more careful reading might that solved that without the need to explain it.But then it would have spoiled your excuse to post your comment. So I think I understand your thinking now.
If your government is overthrown by a international Zionist coup (hello Nudelman!) that threatens your loved ones with bus loads of neonazis….then by all means separate! ;)
But if your local Catalan oligarchs are trying to convince you that Spain is anti-democratic but that the EU is more democratic, then do not listen to the separatists. They are merely local oligarchs attempting to manipulate you ;) Just like the Madrid-based oligarchs…but that’s another story.
Not clear which separatists? Could be the three Baltic mini-states that were so anxious to shoot themselves in the foot and depopulate by ruining their economies? But at least they have their own Nazi flags to wave. Maybe the Kurds? Didn’t work out too well for them to date. Catalonia? Spanish Civil War version 2? Yugoslavia? More little mini-statelets waving their own flags over their impoverished economies. Chechnya? Doing a lot better as part of Mother Russia now that the war is over. Crimes, Donetsk, and Luhansk? Crimea is doing well, but they really didn’t break away to become independent statelets, but rather to rejoin Mother Russia, and become part of a bigger and richer country. Here in Canada we have the perennial Quebec separatists which have narrowly lost a couple of referendums, our local version of the Baltics.
Waving their own silly little flag is very appealing to would-be Presidents and other nationalist politicians who think they will personally become more powerful, but rarely benefits the people who live in the now broken state with its broken economy and now hostile neighbours.
the runner have an “estelada” flag in their T-Shirt but you can change it with any other separatist one
It ain’t over till the fat lady sings! In any case, in due time Catalonia must and will be independent of Spain, a state with declining industries headed towards a financial cliff in any case. Despite all of the austerity forced upon the hapless Spanish people, the savings have all gone to pay off Spain’s debt, most of which was brought about when the totally corrupt PP and PSOE parties bailed out their banker friends by having Spain taking on their irresponsible debts (Bankia, etc). Despite all the austerity pain, Spain’s debt has actually shot up. It is unpayable. The real reason for the Catalan situation is humiliation of Catalonia over a new autonomy deal by PP plus the money running out as a result of the 2008-2009 financial crisis. Spain can and will never pay off its debts to the eurobankers but without being able to milk Catalonia , the day of reckoning will happen much sooner. Without Catalonia, Spain is more like Greece than Portugal. At least Portugal overcame the usury forced upon them by the EU. Spain couldn’t.
I would like to refute point by point your comments with facts, it would be real easy, but…
I wouldn’t spend the effort, I will only write… if according to you “Without Catalonia, Spain is more like Greece” … then Catalonia would be… Zimbabwe?
I’d like to see you do that too. Usually when someone says “I’d like to,but”. That means they really can’t,but claims they can anyway. So I’d say if you really can “do it”.Inquiring minds want to see the facts that refute what was said. The economic points on austerity that he made are pretty common knowledge (I’m seen Spaniards talk about them before).And as for the Greek comment he stated.For years their have been articles in the press about the Southern European regions being only a few steps away from the Greek problem.So nothing strange there as well.But yes,if you have facts that deny all that,feel free to show us.
if you want it… well here we go.
…”a state with declining industries headed towards a financial cliff in any case”…
this is just an opinion, Spain is much better that any other Southern European Country, even Italy, which was close to be rescued. Look at the economic data in wikipedia (because I am not posting here 20 links) recession yes, but things were recovering steadily, from industrial production to unemployment. Nothing different as what is happening all over the EU
…”Despite all of the austerity forced upon the hapless Spanish people, the savings have all gone to pay off Spain’s debt”…
As of now I haven´t heard or seen nobody that have lost his savings. If you mean some speculative inversions that got busted,that is another thing, because some speculative investors got busted when the banks got their problems.
About the austerity measures… not even close to what happened in Greece or Portugal, please…
…”most of which was brought about when the totally corrupt PP and PSOE parties bailed out their banker friends by having Spain taking on their irresponsible debts (Bankia, etc).”…
what happened is also nothing new, because it has been happening all over Western Countries. It is named Privatization of benefits, Socialization of losses. Open your eyes, look around… yes is happening all over, sorry.
…“Despite all the austerity pain, Spain’s debt has actually shot up. It is unpayable”…
this is some kind of oximoron… how can be austerity measures with an skyrocketing debt?
It is as much payable as the one of Germany, France, the UK, the US… again you can find the data in the Wikipedia. It is still much smaller that half the EU Contries.
…“The real reason for the Catalan situation is humiliation of Catalonia over a new autonomy deal by PP plus the money running out as a result of the 2008-2009 financial crisis”…
Sorry I can only say that this sentence is just the Crap the Sececionist Rebels are throving out, utterly nonsense. Nobody is humilliating Catalonia, there was no deal in progress… unless you count the insatiable demands of the nationalist government in Barcelona as a “Deal”
The crissis affected all spaniards equally, this guys just want MORE privileges, which in a modern day Democracy are quite incongruent. (again Wikipedia, spanish debt by region might help)
…“Spain can (not?) and will never pay off its debts to the eurobankers but without being able to milk Catalonia , the day of reckoning will happen much sooner. Without Catalonia, Spain is more like Greece than Portugal. At least Portugal overcame the usury forced upon them by the EU. Spain couldn’t.”…
Why not? Because you say so. Again you are repeating the Vomited Arguments of the sececionists. The possibilities and capabilities of Spain to pay its debts are similar to their neighboring countries.
if anyone is trembling their day of reckoning are the Generalitat in Catalonia which would be Banckrupt three times were not the central government in Madrid come to the rescue.
Look into Wikipedia, Spain economy by region. You might be surprised to discover what the Catalans really produce and what not, and what is their real contribution to the spanish economy. about the debt I made a mention above , and … Oh my God!!! Much less now that about 1700 enterprises (by now) have left the Region and will not pay Taxes and make their acountabilities there (enterprises that produce and or sell in other spanish regions, but made their account books and payed their taxes in Barcelona)
a pity that those lessons were not learned… (do you remember what happened with the Quebec Referendum… even the Bank of Montral have its seat in Toronto. Same thing here)
Were Catalonia to be out of Spain (which I doubt will happen in this way) I think it would actually be a good thing for Spain (minus Catalonia) if done within the mark of a mutual agreement.
To the Anonymous Spaniards, to answer your points about my points
1. …”Despite all of the austerity forced upon the hapless Spanish people, the savings have all gone to pay off Spain’s debt”…
As of now I haven´t heard or seen nobody that have lost his savings. If you mean some speculative inversions that got busted,that is another thing, because some speculative investors got busted when the banks got their problems.
Obviously, you failed to understand English. The austerity forced upon the Spaniards meant that there was less money for social services, etc. The money that would have gone to said social services went to service Spain’s ridiculous debt.
2.
…”most of which was brought about when the totally corrupt PP and PSOE parties bailed out their banker friends by having Spain taking on their irresponsible debts (Bankia, etc).”…
what happened is also nothing new, because it has been happening all over Western Countries. It is named Privatization of benefits, Socialization of losses. Open your eyes, look around… yes is happening all over, sorry. I never said it was only happening in Spain but it is simply unacceptable since Spain had not been under such a debt burden until PP , like other craven parties in the Western World, bailed out their good buddies.
3.
…“Despite all the austerity pain, Spain’s debt has actually shot up. It is unpayable”…
this is some kind of oximoron… how can be austerity measures with an skyrocketing debt?
It is as much payable as the one of Germany, France, the UK, the US… again you can find the data in the Wikipedia. It is still much smaller that half the EU Contries.
Once again, your misunderstanding of English is readily apparent. The Spanish government was order to slash the budget drastically. What was done with the money? Pay off the ridiculous external debt. Has it gone down? No! Spain’s external debt has actually gone up! Explain that one, if you can.
4.
…“The real reason for the Catalan situation is humiliation of Catalonia over a new autonomy deal by PP plus the money running out as a result of the 2008-2009 financial crisis”…
Sorry I can only say that this sentence is just the Crap the Sececionist Rebels are throving out, utterly nonsense. Nobody is humilliating Catalonia, there was no deal in progress… unless you count the insatiable demands of the nationalist government in Barcelona as a “Deal”
The crissis affected all spaniards equally, this guys just want MORE privileges, which in a modern day Democracy are quite incongruent. (again Wikipedia, spanish debt by region might help)
The new estatut deal was a deal forged by the PSOE Catalan leader Maragall and the PSOE Spanish leader Zapatero. PSOE can hardly be called a Catalan nationalist party. This new estatut was voted on in both parliaments and passed a referendum. PP took the deal to the Constitutional Court where they had more pull. It finally ruled on it, throwing out many parts which were okay in the Valencia estatut. The popular will of the Catalan people as reflected by the Catalan parliament and the referendum (I’m talking about the new estatut here) was thrown overboard.
5.
…“Spain can (not?) and will never pay off its debts to the eurobankers but without being able to milk Catalonia , the day of reckoning will happen much sooner. Without Catalonia, Spain is more like Greece than Portugal. At least Portugal overcame the usury forced upon them by the EU. Spain couldn’t.”…
Why not? Because you say so. Again you are repeating the Vomited Arguments of the sececionists. The possibilities and capabilities of Spain to pay its debts are similar to their neighboring countries.
Not me. Spain’s debt has reached nearly 100% of GNP. Without Catalonia, it would be far worse. In any case, Spain is no different from the likes of Belgium or even the USA. Their external debt is also , ultimately, unpayable. What can’t be paid won’t be paid. Spain, like other PIIGS, will ultimately default. Sorry for the bad news but it is well by anyone paying attention to the Ponzi economy as practiced in the West.
6.
if anyone is trembling their day of reckoning are the Generalitat in Catalonia which would be Banckrupt three times were not the central government in Madrid come to the rescue.
I agree to a point here. Our Basque Government has managed the Basque economy far better than the Catalans or the Spaniards (debt shot up in the Basque Country when an inept, useless PSOE / PP government was undemocratically forced on us for 3 years but debt is now back under control ). Spaniards love to look down on Basques as a small , unimportant minority but we know that we live far better than Deep Spain. We don’t have your ridiculous corruption levels (Gürtel, Barcenas double entry booking keeping, etc) and don’t spend money on airports without planes, useless roundabouts everywhere whether needed or not, or showy exhibition sites now falling apart. The Catalans were as corrupt as the worst Spaniard and this must be admitted. A good solution would be for Spain to be given an article 155 and be administered from the Basque Country :-) Thank God we don’t have to throw so much of our tax money down the rathole known as the Central Spanish Government. It explains why we are so much better off.
Look, it is in our interest for the Spanish economy to be going well but it isn’t, despite all that PP might say. In Deep Spain, the youth unemployment is 40% or more in many areas. The effect of the eurozone means that there has been an internal devaluation with the result of wages falling. Your Spanish , Castilian, Andalusian, etc. leaders failed to usher in real education, training in Deep Spain when times were good and EU money was pouring in. We Basques had to close down our shipyards, steel mills , in effect, we had to reinvent ourselves and we did . What did you Spaniards do in the meantime ? You misspent most of it and millions of Spaniards , left unemployed by the collapse of construction, are idle, unable to even emigrate unless they are well educated and with a knowledge of foreign languages (Basques and Catalans are far better at languages than Spaniards, generally speaking , so maybe our languages are not as worthless as many Spanish say). I really feel sorry for them as there is no solution. I hope I’m wrong.
Yes, technically I am a Spaniard but when traveling I always say I am Basque. That always irks Spaniards but readily accepted by Europeans. Funny that Scots can say they’re Scottish and not have to say their British. Anyway, It is a shame to be part of a sinking ship, to be controlled by a country less developed than our own but we’ll eventually be independent one day in the future. As we say in our dear Basque, Ezina Ekinaz Egina! Have at it and have it! Peace and thanks to the Saker for providing the platform to debate.
“… how can be austerity measures with an skyrocketing debt? It is as much payable as the one of Germany, France, the UK, the US…”
Which means… not payable at all, right, Anon? Whether it’s the EU banks’ euros, the Bank of England’s pounds, or the Federal Reserve’s dollars, how can anyone pay off debt money with more debt money…?
“When our Federal Government, that has the exclusive power to create money, creates that money and then goes into the open market and borrows it and pays interest for the use of its own money, it occurs to me that that is going too far. I have never yet had anyone who could, through the use of logic and reason, justify the Federal Government borrowing the use of its own money.”
~ US Congressman Wright Patman, 1941
In an earlier post, Terry said that, “Waving their own silly little flag is very appealing to would-be Presidents… but rarely benefits the people who live in the now broken state with its broken economy and now hostile neighbours.” That’s because the bankster empire’s control stems from control of money. If separatists continue using the banksters’ money, their economy will remain broken. And if separatists start controlling their own money to the people’s benefit, the banksters rile up the hostile neighbors to correct that.
I am not sure which path Catalonia will choose (talk of remaining in the EU makes the former look more likely), yet it is still incredibly important to be mindful of the world elites’ goals lest they use us as their… falling anvils…
There are pretty huge pro-unity demonstrations right now in Barcelona and elsewhere. The entire government has gone home. Puigdemont is keeping as low a profile as he can and probably would like to disappear inside some big bushes for a while. Belgium has offered him assylum if he is “unjustly” prosecuted for the mess he helped create https://www.rt.com/newsline/408134-catalan-leader-political-asylum/
With some luck he will avoid going to prison. The independentists in the streets appear rather crestfallen, it looks like they realized they have been used and betrayed by the politicians, who didn’t even have the guts to proclaim a republic openly or vote openly for independence and had to change the format at the last second to vote “secretly” while all the opposition had left the chamber in disgust. The non-independent segment of the population (a majority) have woken from their slumber. They are not hiding anymore. Seldom have we witnessed a more botched, ameteurish and clownish operation as this independence run. There will be elections in December. Not under a new state, which does not exist.
If Catalonia break out of Spain and if Catalonia stay in the EU as the indepentist wish than Catalonia will be a net contributor to the EU budget (like France , Germany , Uk and the netherland). So instead of giving money away to your fellow country mates you will be giving money away to Bulgarian Pole and Estonian.
Not only the reason you give for breaking away is at best very selfish, it’s like if the Paris region want to break away from France because it is the richest, but acquiring independence doesn’t get rid of the problem in fact it makes it worse.
After weeks of lost chances by the Spanish regime to negotiate, Catalonia has declared Independence today. Instead of looking for a peaceful route out of the dispute through talks. Madrid going back to their Franco past chose the Ukrainian solution. They’ve used terror to try and prevent a referendum in Catalonia.They failed to a great extent. They’ve used threats and arrests.And now they are trying to strip Catalonia of its regional rights.Its as if they called Kiev and asked for advise on how to destroy unity in their country. Its almost certain they will now order in troops to crush the region.Which will almost certainly spark open rebellion and guerrilla war in Catalonia.More than likely it will spread to some of the other regions as well.The Basque region and probably Valencia would be my guess. Once a regime turns its military against those they claim are their own citizens they lose all credibility with those very citizens. You would think with the example of Donbass staring them in the face.The Madrid regime would have been smarter than that.But now we will see they aren’t.
https://www.rt.com/news/407956-catalan-parliament-votes-independence/
https://www.rt.com/news/407965-spanish-senate-rule-catalonia/
look Bob, I am a Spaniard, and like much of the Spaniards I am tired to explain that the things there (in Spain) are quite different as they show them in the MSM internationally. In this blog, some non-spanish readers seems to follow old topics and a biased vision of Spain, as if we were still living the in the past (middle ages, and so on till Franco) it is as if I were to start writing about the problems of the US because of the politics of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the American Civil War or Far West colonization… that might be ok to use as historical reference, or studing the roots of some (not all) Problems in the US… but somewhat incoherent to use to justify what is happening now.
Please read all the articles that have been submitted on this blog about what is happening in Catalonia/Spain – from all sides, before making unilateral statements about commenters (some removed). Spanish?.Mod
You are following arguments (Violence of the Government, threats, Terror… etc) that are False, but are being spread by the sececionist rebels, also much is taken out of context, or not considered in their totallity.
What is happening there, wouldn’t be tolerated nowhere in the Western Democratic World, not to mention other not so Democratic places.
it is a Rebellion of a part of a country, not even that… a part of a part of a country, because they are not a clear majority even in Catalonia, as I am sure the next elections will show.
There are some hidden interest behind all this, and we will not know them in the short term, maybe in a decade or two.
No rebellion succeeds without being a bloody armed rebellion, and not even that it is a warrant of succeess. There is not going to be a civil war, just some police actions. Because the moment the rebels use a weapon, and blood is spilled on the floor, they will loose all legitimacy and will be named terrorists. They do not have the stomach for that. People live quite comfortably there.
About your guess of guerrilla there spilling into Pays Basque or Valencia… pffff… sure, and the general Franco is coming to Madrid from the south. damn Fascists!
I have followed a great deal of the discussion on this blog concerning events in Catalonia.
Nevertheless, I cannot get a clear picture as to which party–Catalonian secessionists or Madrid—represents the best interests of both Spain and the Catalonians.
I see arguments that support all positions (these seem to be the main three options):
Best for all if Spain stays unitary
Best for Catalonians if Catalonia separates and remains outside the corrupt EU.
Best for Catalonians and Europe if Catalonia separates and joins EU.
To me, it seems like it is best if all parties try to set aside the events of the past—despite the many injustices and frustrations—and focus on the current and future circumstances. Unlike in the past, the EU exists as the context within these events are occurring. Regarding the situation of Spain qua Spain and Spain qua member of EU. There is so much volatility already in the EU. Is it good, or bad, to add to the existing volatility? I don’t know. Some would say: Pile on volatility—then the whole system will really be shaken up.
Regardless of how one feels about these options, I myself feel that it was a gross misstep by the govt. to engage the separatists with violence and intransigence instead of dialogue and talk. Instead of pouring oil on troubled waters, they have poured fuel on the flames—to mix a metaphor. This seems to have created a whole new round and layer of grievances and vastly complicated the whole situation for everyone.
Katherine
First of all,I support Spain staying united. But it is the Spanish regime that is creating the problem. The facts are that Catalonia (the majority Catalans in the region),are a thousand year (plus) old ethnic group. That has a language and culture different from the Castilian one. They are close in many ways I agree.But still different. Spain needs to accept that,and give them autonomy if they want to hold a united Spain.Throughout their history there have been revolts against their inclusion in Spain. Some off them epic revolts.This crisis is not new,or made-up one,as most pro-Spanish posters want us to believe. It is a historic crisis.A simple reading of history shows that. Spain is making all the mistakes that the junta in Ukraine made.They need to stop before they destroy any hope of a untied Spain.
As to your claims that most people don’t want independence. You may be right,we don’t know.What we do know is that over 80% of people there wanted a referendum.We do know that before the Spanish regime used terror to stop it,around 45% of people were able to vote.And the vast majority of those voted yes to independence. Would the other 55% had voted “no” as the pro-Spanish regime people say? We don’t know,because the Spanish regime crushed the voting.Commonsense tells me if they thought they would win the vote.They wouldn’t have done that,but we can’t be sure. The party in power in the Spanish regime has ties to the old Franco regime. That is a fact,not opinion.So your attempt at humor,has more truth than you should be happy with.
But here is the bottom-line.The Spanish regime needs to stop the lies.Wake up to the fact that they “themselves” are causing Spain to break-up.And instead of using force,start talking.If they don’t,there may very well be no going back for them.And Spain will become another Ukraine.The Spanish themselves should understand what they are doing to themselves. But like so many Ukrainians they don’t seem to understand until its too late.
(Sidenote: The current Spanish regime ruling party,the Peoples Party.Was founded first as the Peoples Alliance in 1976. Changing its name to Peoples Party in 1989 “The seven founders were Manuel Fraga, Laureano López Rodó, Cruz Martínez Esteruelas (es), Federico Silva Muñoz (es), Gonzalo Fernández de la Mora, Licinio de la Fuente (es) and Enrique Thomas de Carranza (es). Out of the seven founders the first 6 had held cabinet-level offices during the dictatorship of Francisco Franco. The odd one, Thomas de Carranza, had also been part of the Francoist administration.[8] “. I think that should put to rest whether are not the current regime has a Franco past.So hopefully people will stop the attempts to deny it. Its too easy to prove for that to work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Alliance_(Spain)
…“First of all, I support Spain staying united. But it is the Spanish regime that is creating the problem. The facts are that Catalonia (the majority Catalans in the region), are a thousand year (plus) old ethnic group. That has a language and culture different from the Castilian one. They are close in many ways I agree. But still different. Spain needs to accept that, and give them autonomy if they want to hold a united Spain. Throughout their history there have been revolts against their inclusion in Spain. Some off them epic revolts. This crisis is not new, or made-up one, as most pro-Spanish posters want us to believe. It is a historic crisis. A simple reading of history shows that. Spain is making all the mistakes that the junta in Ukraine made. They need to stop before they destroy any hope of a untied Spain.”…
They accept their “differential fact”, they have autonomy since 1978. There haven’t been that much revolts (that is propaganda) it is true that they fight for a different pretending king In the Secession war, just to maintain their privileged status. And that they continued fighting even when the Austrian candidate simple left. Also, their part in the civil war is full of contradictions. Their behavior (like the one of the Basque) was one of the worst causes that the Spanish Republic lose the civil war.
What you doesn`t seem to understand is that the Catalonian society it is not monolithic or homogeneous.
…“As to your claims that most people don’t want independence. You may be right, we don’t know. What we do know is that over 80% of people there wanted a referendum. We do know that before the Spanish regime used terror to stop it, around 45% of people were able to vote. “…
Sorry but even the international observers that the Catalonian nationalist contracted to certify the Referendum couldn`t say it was a clean, well-organized, serious election. They were of course dismissed and ignored, because what they said was an inconvenient truth.
Would you like the pictures of the guys that voted 5 times…? or the fantastic recount that gives a 103% of all votes when added…?
The fact is that it was a fake illegal election. Whose objective was the staged fight of democrats against the Spanish brutality… a 1000 wounded… (they counted as wounded even persons that rang the hospital from home saying they were very upset. It was all staged. Fake pics, fake videos, etc.) I am not saying that some police behave bad, but look at any protest in Western countries and it is not much more or extraordinary than other countries made.
…“And the vast majority of those voted yes to independence. Would the other 55% had voted “no” as the pro-Spanish regime people say? We don’t know, because the Spanish regime crushed the voting. Commonsense tells me if they thought they would win the vote. They wouldn’t have done that,but we can’t be sure. The party in power in the Spanish regime has ties to the old Franco regime. That is a fact, not opinion. So your attempt at humor, has more truth than you should be happy with.”…
You are again falling into the rhetoric and arguments of the rebels… if they crushed the voting how it is possible 2 millions voted (according to the independentist)
This nationalist rebels are since 40 years about 45-48% turnout of any election, when you add them all. The tendency is even slowly decreasing. They are just becoming more radicalized. The historic of the elections is there to see. The problem is that it was (the referendum) declared illegal by the supreme court, and people who respect the rule of law are not to break it. So about 55% of the voters ignored it. These “freedom fighters” simply ignore the law at their best convenience. 80% of 45% is about 35 % of all voters, which is quite consistent with the real ideology of people in Catalonia. There is now an election scheduled for December. And surely people will vote en-masse (they usually do not, because the turnout in Catalonia is quite low) these guys simply went too far. We will see them what happens.
About the links with Franco… well all parties have a link with the past, do you want we speak about Esquerra and their “revolutionary crazy frency in the civil war” not to mention that the catalanist right parties (Convergencia I Unio, now PdeCat) have also very strong links to Franco, why do you think they become so wealthy after the civil war. And off course Socialist Party with Soviet Union, Paracuellos Massacre… want me to keep going? Only Ciudadanos and the new extreme left are clean of Past. Because they are new parties.
…“But here is the bottom-line.The Spanish regime needs to stop the lies.Wake up to the fact that they “themselves” are causing Spain to break-up.And instead of using force,start talking.If they don’t,there may very well be no going back for them.And Spain will become another Ukraine.The Spanish themselves should understand what they are doing to themselves. But like so many Ukrainians they don’t seem to understand until its too late.”…
Again this is just BS. Sorry, the problems haven´t been because of the central government. They have been because of the insatiable demands of the nationalist. What more they want? We can not keep going with this forever. The problem is that Spain needs a renovation of its Structures and Autonomies (which a majority of Spanish thinks are the worst thing because it is craziness) even ending them.
…”(Sidenote: The current Spanish regime ruling party,the Peoples Party.Was founded first as the Peoples Alliance in 1976. Changing its name to Peoples Party in 1989 “The seven founders were Manuel Fraga, Laureano López Rodó, Cruz Martínez Esteruelas (es), Federico Silva Muñoz (es), Gonzalo Fernández de la Mora, Licinio de la Fuente (es) and Enrique Thomas de Carranza (es). Out of the seven founders the first 6 had held cabinet-level offices during the dictatorship of Francisco Franco. The odd one, Thomas de Carranza, had also been part of the Francoist administration.[8] “. I think that should put to rest whether are not the current regime has a Franco past.So hopefully people will stop the attempts to deny it. Its too easy to prove for that to work.”…
All those people are dead, and that was 40 years ago… do you think that the party have the same ideology of those people, that it haven`t evolved to more modern and democratic positions. That is nonsense. The PP is more like the CDU in Germany or Conservative Party in the UK. We do not go all day saying that CDU is nazi . do we?
The problem with the past is that everybody have one. As I said before, look who were the people in Esquerra (for example) and what they did. And the links between extremist left parties and Venezuela, Iran, Soros, etc. are there to see If you want to see them.
Much of what you say or write it is just the propaganda and BS the Rebels are spreading (and they have been spreading it for a long time) look other sources, read other newspapers, there are more versions, maybe then can you have a more balanced vision of what is happening.
Ps
sorry for the typos. I write this on the run.
Catalonia only became united with Castile with the death of King Ferdinand.With his daughter by Isabella,inheriting his Kingdom of Aragon including the Principality of Catalonia . This was purely a dynastic union.In that both areas were considered separate countries ruled by the same royal family.Like Scotland and English before their union of the 18th century.And the different Kingdoms of the Hapsburg Empire.In many areas of the medieval world (Bohemia being a good example),a ruler had to accept the “rights and privileges” of that region before they could claim the throne. So yes they wanted their “privileges” as you say.You seem to imply something is wrong with that.But instead it was normal throughout Europe.The Castilian government tried for centuries to abolish those rights.And force Catalonia into being only another province in their empire.Whenever they were strong they could do it.But whenever they were less strong Catalonia rebelled. You seem fixated on the War of the Spanish Secession revolt. But that was only one of several.Pretty much one or more every century. With the 1640 revolt probably being the largest.But either way what that shows is that the Catalans never happily accepted outside rule.I don’t really know what you hope to gain from denying facts so easily proved.I suppose you count on most readers not knowing history enough to see your misinformation.
So lets read a little real history for a minute: ” The Principality of Catalonia saw a prosperous period at the end of the 13th century and the beginning of the 14th. The population increased; Catalan culture expanded into the islands of the Western Mediterranean. The reign of Peter III of Aragon (“the Great”) included the conquest of Sicily and the successful defense against a French crusade; his son and successor Alfonso (“the Generous”) conquered Menorca; and Peter’s second son James II, who first acceded to the throne of Sicily and then succeeded his older brother as king of Aragon, conquered Sardinia; under James II, and Catalonia was the center of the flourishing Aragonese empire.”
“At the same time, the Principality of Catalonia developed a complex institutional and political system based in the concept of a pact between the estates of the realm and the king. Laws had to be approved in the General Court of Catalonia, one of the first parliamentary bodies of Europe that banned the royal power to create legislation unilaterally, since 1283.[6] The Courts were composed of the three estates, were presided over by the king of Aragon, and approved the constitutions, which created a compilation of rights for the citizenship of the Principality. In order to collect general taxes, the Courts of 1359 established a permanent representation of deputies, called Deputation of the General (Catalan: Diputació del General) and later sometimes known as Generalitat, which gained an important political power in the next centuries.”
“The Reapers’ War (Catalan: Guerra dels Segadors, 1640–52) started as an uprising of peasants in Barcelona. Conflicts had already arisen between Catalonia and the monarchy in the time of Philip II. Having exhausted the economic resources of Castile, Philip wished to avail himself of those of Catalonia; the Catalan governmental institutions and laws were well protected by the terms of union of the kingdoms, and were jealously guarded by the Catalan population,”
“The resulting Spanish War of Succession (1702–14) may have benefitted Charles’s foreign allies but was a disaster for the Catalans, Valencians and Aragonese. The Treaty of Utrecht (1713–14) ended the possibility of Barcelona’s resistance to Bourbon rule, which it surrendered on 11 September 1714. The Bourbon king, determined to punish what he saw as sedition from Catalonia and Valencia established the Nueva Planta decree (1716), abolishing the Catalan constitutions and with it the Catalan and Valencian parliaments and rights and established a new territorial structure. He suppressed the Catalan universities (Barcelona University moved to Cervera) and abolished the administrative use of the Catalan language; half a century later, the Catalan language would also be banned from primary and secondary schools.”
“The reign of Ferdinand VII (reigned 1808–33) saw several Catalan uprisings and after his death the conflict over the succession between the absolutist “Carlist” partisans of Infante Carlos and the liberal partisans of Isabella II led to the First Carlist War, which lasted until 1840 and was especially virulent in the Catalan territory. As with the Basques, many of the Catalans fought on the Carlist side, not because they supported absolute monarchy, but because they hoped that restoration of the Old Regime would mean restoration of their fueros and recovery of regional autonomy.”
“As in the rest of Spain, the Franco era (1939–1975) in Catalonia saw the annulment of democratic liberties, the prohibition and persecution of parties, the rise of thoroughgoing censorship, and the banning of all leftist institutions. In Catalonia it also meant, yet again, the annulment of the Statute of Autonomy, the banning of the whole specifically Catalan institutions. During the first years, all resistance was energetically suppressed, the prisons filled up with political prisoners, and thousands of Catalans went into exile. In addition, 4000 Catalans were executed between 1938 and 1953, among them the former president of the Generalitat Lluís Companys (taken to Spain from his exile in the German-occupied France).”
“CATALANIA DECLARED INDEPENDENCE [15] The independence motion was passed on 27. October 2017 in the 135-strong Catalan assembly with 70 votes in favour, 10 against and two blank ballots, the assembly’s speaker said. 16% of Spain’s population live in Catalonia, and these people produce: 25.6% of Spain’s exports, 19% of Spain’s GDP, 20.7% of foreign investment – all reasons why the central government doesn’t want to loose their rule over Catalonia.
Just hours after the Catalan declaration of independence, the Spanish Senate invoked Art 155 of the Spanish constitution and authorised Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy’s government to impose direct rule over Catalonia. Rajoy declared the dissolution of the Catalan parliament and dismissed Catalonia’s regional government, including its leader, Carles Puigdemont. Rajoy called a snap election in the region for 21. December 2017.
Spanish Deputy Prime Minister Soraya Saenz de Santamaria was chosen to assume the position of President of Catalonia, as part of the actions that resulted after the activation of Article 155. Santamaria was vested total control over the Catalan administration in addition to being appointed president. Josep Lluis Trapero was also relieved of his duty as chief of the Catalan police force.
But Catalans are fiercely protective of the region’s high degree of autonomy, such as direct control over education, healthcare and the police. Mossos d’Esquadra, a group of Catalonia’s police force favouring independence, has already said its members will not follow instructions from the central government of Spain and will not use force to remove ministers and legislators from power.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Catalonia
As to your claim that because the main fascist founders of the current Spanish PM’s party are dead. That somehow changes them. I can’t believe you actually said that. Since Hitler is dead now. Would a new set of nazi leaders “somehow” make that party acceptable again.I doubt it,but that is the kind of argument you are making,pretty sad really.
You have not explained at which point Catalonia became independent from the Crown of Aragon. That Crown included the current autonomous regions of Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia.
Yes, the laws of the crown of Aragon were different from the laws of Castile, which in turn were different from the laws of Navarre. And within Aragon, you could have different rules and privileges from one principality or kingdom to another. It was normal for monarchs ruling over various contiguous territories to swear to uphold such local laws. This was the case in all of Europe. It did not prevent power from being increasingly centralized over aggregate territories. This process in Spain and France was underway by the early 16th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain#Imperial_Spain:
As Renaissance New Monarchs, Isabella and Ferdinand centralised royal power at the expense of local nobility, and the word España, whose root is the ancient name Hispania, began to be commonly used to designate the whole of the two kingdoms.[47] With their wide-ranging political, legal, religious and military reforms, Spain emerged as the first world power.
The unification of the crowns of Aragon and Castile by the marriage of their sovereigns laid the basis for modern Spain and the Spanish Empire, although each kingdom of Spain remained a separate country, in social, political, laws, currency and language.[48][49]
47 Rinehart, Robert; Seeley, Jo Ann Browning (1998). “A Country Study: Spain – The Golden Age”. Library of Congress Country Series. Retrieved 9 August 2008.
48 “Imperial Spain”. University of Calgary. Archived from the original on 29 June 2008. Retrieved 13 August 2008.
49 Handbook of European History. Books.google.es. 1994. ISBN 9004097600. Retrieved 26 April 2013.
As far as I know, no exercise of state power centralized in one person was occurring between Scotland and England before their union of the 18th century. In fact, they were often fighting. So your claim that it was the same is rather odd.
In your narrative, Catalonia goes from being part of the Crown of Aragon to being on its own. But when was it on its own? There was the revolt in 1640 (backed by the French) whereupon it asked for protection from the king of France. Of course protection comes at a price, so the king of France proceeded to occupy Catalonia in order to protect it. As a result the Catalonians were much unhappier than before. This lasted for about a decade. Olivares knew the Catalans were unhappy under the French and took it back, so it went back to Spain after the Franco-Spanish war. Once that war was over, Spain and France signed the treaty of the Pyrenees, whereby France kept the part of Catalonia north of the Pyrenees.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Spanish_War_(1635%E2%80%9359)
The French, weakened by the Fronde, were unable to hold Catalonia against reconquest by the Spanish forces; the French cause was undermined when the Catalans discovered that the French were even more overbearing than their former Spanish Habsburg masters, and many switched their loyalty back to the chastened regime in Madrid. […] The remnants of Catalan resistance and the depleted French forces in Barcelona surrendered to Spanish Habsburg forces in October 1652
And of course revolts within Spain were not limited to Catalonia.
Castile had a big revolt, called the revolt of the Comuneros, from 1520 to 1521. There were also revolts in the kingdom of Valencia around the same time, both in Valencia and Majorca, called the revolt of the Brotherhoods.
In fact revolts and rebellions by local kingdoms, principalities, nobilities, were rampant all over Europe pretty much all the time.
And so was legislative and administrative discontinuity within the same state. For example in France, up until the end of the 18th century:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_modern_France
The administrative and social structures of the Ancien Régime were the result of years of state-building, legislative acts internal conflicts and civil wars, but they remained a confusing patchwork of local privilege and historic differences until the French Revolution took place in a radical time suppression of administrative incoherence.
The point I am trying to make is that, historically, there is nothing *more unique* about Catalonia in any of these matters, than about many different regions currently within other European states, regions which also have their own unique identity and history and language. If there was (something so uniquely unique) then you would have to think that the French Catalans of the Roussillon would be entitled to exactly the same independence claims. Do they make those claims? Perhaps some do, but not in any significant numbers, just like Catalan independentism in Spain did not become a significant issue until pretty recently. The Carlist succession wars in the 19th century were civil wars that had nothing to do with independentism. There were Catalans on both sides.
Now, to the question, what conditions would justify the granting of independence to a region within current Europe?
Here is a couple of excerpts from:
“Catalonian Independence and the European Union” (2012)
by Joseph Wailer, 2012
The author is editor-in-chief of the European Journal of International Law, and professor of international law at various universities.
https://www.ejiltalk.org/catalonian-independence-and-the-european-union/
Feeding this frenzy for secession and independence in Europe is the premise that all these new states will somehow find a safe haven as Member States of the European Union. Absent that assumption, appetite for independence would be significantly muted, the rough seas of ‘going it alone’ far more threatening. The Canadian Supreme Court, in its careful and meticulous decision on Quebec the reasoning of which remains valid today, clearly showed that none of these cases enjoy a right of secession under public international law, since all of them enjoy extensive individual and collective liberties enabling the full vindication of their national and/or cultural identity within their respective states.
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But the issue is not one of rights, of law. It is simply ethically demoralizing to see the likes of Catalonia reverting to an early 20th-century post-World War I mentality, when the notion that a single state could encompass more than one nationality seemed impossible – hence the special treaties on minorities which abounded in the break-up of the Ottoman and the Austro-Hungarian Empires. These arrangements were well-intentioned but lacking in political imagination and eventually, let us not hide the ugly facts, feeding and leading to that poisonous logic of national purity and ethnic cleansing. Make no mistake, I am not suggesting for one minute that anyone in Catalonia is an ethnic cleanser. But I am suggesting that the ‘go it alone’ mentality is associated with that kind of mindset.
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It is sometimes said that the principles of democracy and self-determination require decision by referendum. But this of course begs the question of who is the ‘political self’ that has the right to determine whether or not the historical nation – even if composed of several peoples – will be broken up and secession allowed. Do we allow every distinct national, cultural and linguistic ‘minority’ in Europe to hold a referendum about secession and independence? The Corsicans? the Bretons? The Welsh? The German speakers of the Alto Adige? The list is endless, given the wonderful cultural richness of Europe. Why should it not be the French as a whole, or the British as a whole, or the Italians as a whole who get to decide the future of their state? Why should it be the Catalans rather than, perhaps, all citizens of Spain who get to decide about the breakup of the Kingdom? There is no self-evident answer to this question. I would argue that it is only under conditions of political and cultural veritable repression that a case for regional referenda can convincingly be made. With its extensive (even if deeply flawed) Statute of Autonomy it is simply laughable and impossible to take seriously Catalan arguments for independence […]
I would be extremely supportive of Catalan independence if I cold see that what they are trying to do is get real independence from the current hugely unfair political and financial structure of the EU. And if I felt they could make it. But that’s not what I am seeing at all. This is a feud between elites fighting about how the pie is to be shared and eaten. I am afraid the result for common people both in Catalonia and in the rest of Spain would be an enormous disaster. Even without a fragmentation it is going to be bad. What I would like is for Spain as a whole to bring down the whole rotten system, get out of the EU, and try to be really independent as a Federal Republic or something like that.
As I’ve said before.I don’t support independence for Catalonia. I think they should be autonomous. I feel the same about the Scotland issue. But it doesn’t matter what I think about the issue,or the pro-Spanish posters on here. It only matters what the Catalans think about it. The argument about letting the whole country vote on letting a part of it go.Is just silly beyond words.Its the argument always used by those “against” letting part of the country because independent.Of course the majority in the country would vote “no” on that question.That is why there is a large country to start with. A majority of people wanted to be joined together.Would you or I let our neighbors vote on the color of paint I used in my bedroom.Or the size of TV in my living room. What you should have for dinner.Or which websites I should go to on the internet.I don’t think I would permit that.So why would the Catalans accept being told by outsiders if they could be free or not.
The question of freedom for Catalonia,is for the Catalans only to decide,no one else. If Spain wants to keep Catalonia a part of Spain.Then show them why it is beneficial for Catalonia to continue as part of Spain.Give them a degree of autonomy that makes them feel they are better off being united with Madrid. Using force only shows them they are considered as slaves,the property of Spain.And that can only end in violence and rebellion.Creating independence supporters out of those that only wanted autonomy. Spain has a horrible track record of shooting themselves in the foot in situations like this.In the early 1820’s they lost the America’s like that. The majority of the rebels at first only wanted autonomy and to be represented in the Cortes. But they got a “back of the hand ” from Madrid. And they turned to supporting independence instead. One would think Madrid would have learned from that,but no. When Cuba revolted,the same thing happened. The largest opinion on the island supported autonomy.But Spain refused,only agreeing after it was too late.And most of those wanting autonomy already decided they had to support independence instead. Again one would think Spain would learn from those monumental errors.But no,they never seem to be able to. They are making the same error today in Catalonia.Over 40% as of a few weeks ago supported independence.Another huge number wanted more autonomy,but to remain inside Spain.Now with Spain using force against Catalonia,more and more of those that had supported only autonomy will be outraged.And join the independence side.Once more showing the time honored Spanish ability to make a bad situation worse for themselves.Its probably “still” not too late to change. But once the oppression really starts,and fighting begins.Then it will be too late for them.
Yes, I would agree, somewhat reluctantly, that the decision is only for them to decide. I say reluctantly because if I presented you with some examples, say the port of Houston wishing to secede from the US, or just from Texas, I wonder if you would say so cavalierly that it is only for Houstonians to decide, not for the rest of the state or the country. But assuming that yes, it is only for them to decide, then there has to be some framework to go about these things. It is, after all a very grave decision that will affect the lives of a lot of people. Should it be done on a 50.01% victory for secession?
Then your next point suggests that perhaps more autonomy is the answer. In other words, give them what they want or they leave. A question. Could you name a region in Europe, outside of Spain, where there is more autonomy than in Catalonia? Please name one and explain.
Now to the framework.
First, you consider the cases where there is clear oppression. Once proven that a region is seriously oppressed, that should be enough cause to justify a unilateral secession.
If that is not the case — and definitely here that is not the case — then a good and probably the only extant reference framework would the Clarity Act by the Canadian Supreme court. It tackles the main problem, it being that a separation may often be considered unconstitutional (such as is the case in Canada and Spain) but even in that case a state could not just cling to this unconstitutionality indefinitely, because the position would become untenable. This is what the court considered. And so it gave a framework on how to proceed. It seems fair. You can read the text here. Not too long.
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-31.8/FullText.html
What cannot be allowed is the incredibly slipshod, whimsical, improvisational way of doing things that has been observed in the current case since October 1.
Yes, the central government was at fault to keep insisting that nothing could be done because the thing was unconstitutional. Well, that is solved by amending the constitution if a clear majority should emerge from a referendum.
And then you formulate the question, go through the required agreements on what the results would mean, what would be a clear majority. And then, if the result is a victory for secession, the two sides must sit down and negotiate the terms. Because there is a lot to negotiate in a case like that.
And the central government was also at fault, when after declaring that the referendum was illegal, it tried to stop it by force. It could be that theoretically it had a right to do so, because it was illegal. But ethically and in practice it was a hugely stupid move, especially considering they didn’t have nearly enough policemen to do that. So the result was the grotesque show of October 1st which was a huge gift to the independentists. I was actually incensed and outraged that the government did that.
You are saying that Spain now is “using force” in Catalonia. All right. Other than that ill-conceived attempt at trying to prevent a (repeat) illegal referendum that had repeatedly been declared illegal, where so far have you seen any force used by the central government in Catalonia?
It is particularly odd that you fret so much about that, when you live in a country where the police, aside from behaving with unmatched levels of thuggery and brutality, actually kills nearly 1000 people per year right on the street, execution style, and where the prison system resembles rather a 19th century penal colony for slave work, with the highest rate of incarceration in history, by far, and appallingly inhuman conditions in the privatized prisons, etc etc etc. Can you really sincerely say with a straight face that there is a problem of force right now in Catalonia?
Because after the October 1st nonsense, it looks like they learned from their mistake. You must have noticed there have been no similar scenes since.
This needs to be done properly. Not based on the results of that charade where the other side did not come to vote because they had been told repeatedly not to vote, because it was illegal. So only the independentists voted, and they were the only ones who counted the votes (and could vote as many times as they pleased, if they felt inclined to do so).
What the Catalan Parliament or Government certainly does not have the right to do is declare: we’ll do the referendum our way, whether you like it or not, and if we get 50.01%, off we go. Bye. We don’t care about any legality. FU.
Do you have any idea what the US Federal government would do if any state within the Union tried to pull something like that? I can tell you what. They would not hesitate to actually kill people or bomb buildings if they felt it would help them make a point. So your persistent moaning about this “force” is perplexing. There was some force used on Oct 1st. Mostly unnecessary. Certainly very mild compared with what the Catalan police do during strikes or demonstrations. And what else have you seen?
And the way they’ve been conducting this whole “declaration” part is just ridiculous beyond description. Nobody among them, least of all the President, had the guts to even make a clear proclamation/declaration of independence. A declaration cannot be “implicit” or vague or ambiguous, or surrealistic. It should by definition be as explicit as can be. And then, when it turned out nobody had the guts to make a declaration, they don’t even have the guts to vote openly for independency. They change the format at the last minute, improvising, after all the opposition had left the room, in order to have a “secret” vote. Pathetic.
I actually want this to be resolved in a proper way. If an agreed-on referendum is done, with the compromise of a subsequent Constitutional amendment if the result is a clear Yes, and it turns out that the independentist side wins, I would be very happy to see them go, because in that case it should be clear that it would be the best thing for everybody.
I agree with much of what you wrote,especially the last paragraph. I would say as of now Scotland,Belgium,and maybe Switzerland would be models to look into.As well as some of the republics inside Russia.But right there in Spain,it seems the Basque region has a better arrangement than Catalonia. In fact I remember that was one of the grievances talked about.So yes,there are arrangements short of a breakup that can work.But not unless they are sincere.As to the force issue.Seizing power in Catalonia,firing the regions officials,arresting people.I think that would come under using force.And most of that was done after October 1st.
Thanks to @FilozofA
Fragmentation of Yugoslavia was just a practice run by global oligarchs’ scenario for all of Europe. Now Catalonia:
Article by Gearóid Ó Colmáin This is precisely what I am afraid of
Catalan ‘independence’ – A Tool of Capital Against Labour
Part I
by Gearóid Ó Colmáin
https://www.gearoidocolmain.org/catalan-independence-tool-capital-labour/
If you are going to give numbers about people executed during and after the Spanish Civil War, it is a complete mystery why you give only numbers for Catalan victims, unless you want to make it sound as if only Catalonians were executed, or as if that war was especially directed at them. Your attempt to equate the current Spanish government (disgustingly right wing as it is, but no more so than their Catalan counterparts that have been running Catalonia since 1980) with the horrors of what the fascists did in Spain 80 years ago, is completely shameless.
I will give you some numbers so people get the picture. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%ADctimas_de_la_Guerra_Civil_Espa%C3%B1ola
The number of SPANIARDS (from all regions) according to the Wikipedia page, are as follows. Note: the page in Catalan gives the same numbers. No page available in English.
540 000 excess mortality during the war (number of deaths above the number that could be expected from the mortality rate at the beginning of the war)
576 000 fewer births during those years
Estimated total victims from repression: 200,000
(this does NOT include deaths in the front or victims from bombardments etc.)
Of those, 50,000 were murdered in the rear of the Republican (government) zone
100, 000 were murdered in the rear of the rebel (fascist) zone
50,000 were executed after the war
In addition, there is a high number of people disappeared, that cannot be accounted for in any registry. Because of this, Spain, with more than 114 000 people disappeared, is the “second country in the world, after Cambodia, with the highest number of victims of forced disappearances whose remains have not yet been recovered or identified”.
Madrid was under siege from November 1936 to March 1939 when the fascist forces finally were able to take it.
It was pretty liberally bombarded, especially in 1936 and 1937, both from the sky, including German and Italian aviation, and from nearby artillery in Casa de Campo. Only the rich district (barrio de Salamanca) was spared. After that, Soviet fighters generally kept the German aviation away. It was the first major European city to be bombed by aviation.
Barcelona was badly bombarded on 16, 17 and 18 March 1938 by Italian aviation.
The fascist offensive in Catalonia, centered upon the objective of capturing Barcelona, lasted less than 2 months, from December 1938 to February 1939. As soon as Tarragona fell on Jan 14 1939, a kind of human stampede began in Barcelona heading for the French border. A few die-hard communists tried to encourage the people into resisting, but by then everyone understood there was no point in trying to resist. The “No pasarán” stubborness was a Madrid thing, and it didn’t work either. The city of Barcelona was taken at the end of January 1939. It must be said that at that point, it was pretty obvious they didn’t have the means to defend the city.
As could be expected, the Catalan elites and much of the business class snuggled up to the Franco regime. They did the same in Madrid and elsewhere. This had been mostly a class war from the start. Franco led a war of attrition, and his thugs made sure the lesson was well injected in the brains and the bones of everybody for a long time.
It would be appreciated if you made a modest effort not to be so blatantly biased as to give data only about Catalan victims from the civil war, to make it look as if they were the only or the main victims of that war. Or as if that war was directed specifically against them. Or to refer to civil wars of succession in which Catalans participated on both sides, as wars of secession and so on.
You “might” not have noticed but the link said “History of Catalonia”. So that is why it only gave executed Catalans.Hopefully that clears up that “mystery” as you say. A more careful reading might that solved that without the need to explain it.But then it would have spoiled your excuse to post your comment. So I think I understand your thinking now.
If your government is overthrown by a international Zionist coup (hello Nudelman!) that threatens your loved ones with bus loads of neonazis….then by all means separate! ;)
But if your local Catalan oligarchs are trying to convince you that Spain is anti-democratic but that the EU is more democratic, then do not listen to the separatists. They are merely local oligarchs attempting to manipulate you ;) Just like the Madrid-based oligarchs…but that’s another story.