This article was written for the Unz Review: http://www.unz.com/tsaker/russia-on-the-long-and-difficult-path-to-true-civilizational-identity/
By now you must have heard it – Putin is “persecuting the Jeohvah’s Witnesses” in Russia. Alas, this one is true. Well, this is maybe not nearly as terrible as the Ziomedia makes it sound, but still, a pretty bad and fundamentally misguided policy.
Why did the Russian government take such a drastic decision?
The Russian Justice Department has banned the JW as an organization on the grounds that the JW were a “”totalitarian sect of an anti-Christian orientation, the teachings of which contains teachings and practices which can damage the personality and health of the adept, his family, as well as traditional national spirituality and public interests” (source). Another source report that: “The Supreme Court of Russia stated that the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ church organization has systematically and through central governance infringed on human rights and trampled the freedoms of those belonging to the denomination. The sect forbids restricts families, bans many types of education and restricts medical treatments”. The same author then concludes that “So, in principle it is about protecting the rights and freedoms of Russians and on the other hand about breaking the laws governing churches’ activities. The Jehovah’s Witnesses have been given warnings and notices demanding that they reform, but without results. Therefore, do as the Romans do, or get out of Rome.”
Does that make sense to you?
To me it makes no sense whatsoever.
First and foremost, if the JW are really guilty of damaging personalities or health of people, or if they systematically infringe on human rightw – then take them to court for these crimes and punish them. Why should one association/organization like the JW be singled out for committing crimes when every one of these crimes can be prosecuted in court? If the JW break the law, they ought to be punished according to the law, but why banning them? Why seize their assets?
I have heard the argument that the JW are probably run by the US CIA and the rest of them “democracy-bearers”. They probably are. So what? Then force them to register as the “agent of a foreign power” and, again, if they break the law then punish them according to the law.
Then comes the killer argument: JW do not accept blood transfusions. I don’t see what the problem is here either: let adults accept or reject whatever medical procedure they want, as for the children you can easily pass a law saying that in case of severe trauma, or of an acute need for a transfusion children can be transfused without the agreement of the parents. Does that violate parental right or the freedom of religion? Well, yes, of course it does, but each society has the right to impose minimal norms of civil and human rights which trump parental or religious rights. After all, by the logic of those who say that parental rights are above all female genital mutilations should also be accepted as long as the parents agree. And yet in reality, each society draws the line somewhere, and this is why in almost all countries circumcisions are allowed but female genital mutilations are banned. Ditto for polygamy which some religions allow but which most countries ban. At the end of the day, religious groups also need to obey the law of the land where they exist and there can be no absolute and unconditional religious freedom anywhere. All the Russian government had to do in this case was to contact the main JW organizations and tell them that their kids will be given transfusions even if their parents disagree. This would give each member of the JW the time and opportunity to decide what they will do in this context.
The most important argument is, I believe, the allegation that the JW “ damage (…) the traditional national spirituality and public interests. What this argument affirms that Russia has a “traditional national spirituality” and that that which runs contrary to it must be curtailed, limited or somehow inhibited. I actually largely agree with this argument, but the devil is in the details. Let me explain.
At this moment in history Russia is primarily an agnostic country. While a majority of Russians do claim some kind of religious affiliation, only a small minority is truly religious. Officially, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Judaism are considered as the “historical” religions of Russia and Orthodox Christianity is singled out for the special contribution it had in Russian history. Seems pretty straightforward and reasonable to me: even if most Russians are not very religious, their worldview and values have been largely formed by the influence of the traditional religions of Russia. Russian literature, for example, is filled with ethical debates which clearly originate in the Orthodox faith. Another example of this religion-inspired worldview is the rejection by a vast majority of Russians of homosexuality as a “normal and healthy variation of human sexuality”: most Russians consider homosexuality to be a sexual pathology which ought not to be legally restricted, but which should not be given a “equal” status to what Russians call “natural” sexual orientations. One does not have to agree with the Russian majority view on this, or any other issue, but I submit that the Russians have the right to define what is right and wrong, healthy or sick, in their own country. Just as western nations currently have laws banning sexual intercourse with children, Russia has the right to pass laws banning the adoption of children by homosexuals. Unless one advocates the merciless “squeezing” of all of mankind into one single Procrustean cultural mold, it is rather obvious that it ought to be right of each sovereign nation to uphold whatever values it wants.
Russia has decided that Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Judaism are the traditional religions of Russia which play a central role in the “traditional national spirituality”. Fine. But at the same time, there still remains a formal separation of religion and state in Russia and the Russian Constitution even bans the adoption of some kind of official state ideology. Furthermore, the Constitution also proclaims the freedom of religion. How do you combine such apparently completely contradictory laws?
In truth, you can’t. Russia is stuck with laws which she inherited from the “democratic” 1990s and the gradually formulating modern social consensus. Religion is hardly the only example. Take, for instance, the death penalty which Russia suspended to be accepted in the Council of Europe. Problem: most Russians favor the death penalty, especially if used against corrupt individuals, like they do in China. I could multiply examples of contradictions between the legacy of the 1990s and today’s Russia.
The real choice Russians must make is between two fundamentally different social and political orders: one, which like the Islamic Republic of Iran, subordinates majority rule/people power/democracy to a set of higher values (in this case, Islamic laws and spirituality) and one in which the will of the people is totally unconstrained, free from any moral, philosophical, religious or ethical precepts. And please do not be shocked or mislead by my reference to the Islamic Republic of Iran. Take for example the US Declaration of Independence which includes the famous words “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed”. These words are accepted as axiomatic, as truisms, words we cannot be abolished or ignored even by a popular vote. Most Constitutions also have this double function of 1) proclaiming certain core beliefs and 2) limiting the scope of what is permissible. Of course, in the USA there still is the possibility of a Constitutional Convention, but you get the idea: modern Russia does not have any form of supra-democratic values or traditional national spirituality, at least not one protected by the law.
What does all that have to do with the JW ban? Everything.
Russians see the JW as a foreign entity, one whose values and actions are in contradiction with the traditional Russian norms. They also correctly perceive, even if they do not fully understand, that foreign religious organizations are very often used by various hostile powers (mostly the USA and Saudi Arabia) to infiltrate the Russian society with, let call them, “sympathetic agents” whose real loyalty (and often paycheck) depends on hostile foreign interests.
The Russian definitely have a point here. What they lack is a sound strategy on how to deal with that problem. Let me give just one example: the proclamation that Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Judaism are Russia’s traditional religions. Great – but which brand/version of, say, Christianity or Islam deserve that status? Does that include the Latin and the Wahabis? Even inside Orthodoxy there are many different jurisdictions the ‘official’ one (the Moscow Patriarchate) being only one of them, even if it is by far the biggest one, courtesy of the (often violent) support of the secular powers both during and after the Soviet era, hardly a criterion of true spiritual legitimacy. Do the Russian Old Ritualists, for example, deserve to be considered as a “traditional Russian religion”? If you look at history, I would submit that they have even more of a claim to being the Russian traditional version of Orthodoxy than any of the ‘New Rite’ (aka “Nikonian”) jurisdictions. As you see, this all gets complicated very fast.
Finally, I would argue that state interventions in religious matters has a pretty disastrous record in Russian history, especially for the past 300 years or so. But how does a society set social norms without involving the state?
These are tricky matters which do not yield simple solutions.
Russia was born as a principality, then she became a monarchy, then an empire, then a union of Soviet republics, then a pseudo-democratic plutocracy and now she is a rather bizarre mix of all of the above trying to impersonate a modern democratic federation with, however, traditional values. No wonder the result often looks like a total mess! No wonder that along the way Russians commit some rather ridiculous blunders.
The mess with the JW is clearly such a blunder and I hope that with enough time the Russian society will become more mature and sophisticated at how such matters are dealt with. Right now we are probably going to see more such generally well-intentioned PR disasters made worse by a fundamental lack of ability to explain to the general public, especially in the West, the real nature and intention of the legal measures adopted (for example, most folks in the West still mistakenly believe that homosexuals are persecuted in Russia).
Yes, Russia did screw up, but I don’t think that it is fair to harshly blame her for her admittedly clumsy attempts at recovering a true civilizational identity. At least she is still trying when so many others have simply given up and caved in to the hypocritical and fake system of pseudo-values of the AngloZionist Empire. I wish all the countries on our suffering planet had the courage and opportunity to re-discover their own civilizational identities.
The Saker
Believers should be free to practice their faith, which they will do anyway. The problem with these semi- Christian and semi- Sunni cults (evangelicals, mormons, scientologists etc. and salafists, is their missionary activity as part of their religious practice.
I think every state has the right and duty to prohibit this and fiercely enforce it! These kind of toxic influences can never be allowed! This fake christianity is destroying cultures!
It is also fair to point out that current Russian views on homosexuality is the same that western world had in the 1960 and 1970s,the only difference is that the west has hade 40 years of culturalmarxist indoctrination.
“most Russians consider homosexuality to be a sexual pathology which ought not to be legally restricted, but which should not be given a “equal” status to what Russians call “natural” sexual orientations. One does not have to agree with the Russian majority view on this, or any other issue, but I submit that the Russians have the right to define what is right and wrong, healthy or sick, in their own country. J”
Homosexuality is pushed in the west because the Bilderberg group and their employers have the plans for a dumbed down, mixed “pan-european” race. Homosexuality only affects and is pushed on the indigenous Caucasian race in the West. It has no effect on Africans and Middle-Easterners, who consist the vast majority of procreating, and who consequently get the largest social benefits advocating it.
Russia is the stumbling block for globalism. Look, there is nothing wrong with homosexualism, but raising it in a dominant place, while actively trying to kill heterosexualism is just the tool the globalists are using to carry out their mission.
To call Salafis semi-Sunnis is a self-deluding attempt to make Islam peaceful. A cursory look at the first centuries of Islam and its wars of conquest (aka the “good old days” to muslims) shows that their, uh, missionary activity (replete with beheadings) is intrinsic to Islam. Its periods of dormancy were simply periods of its suppression. Thankfully, Islam was also hindered by the fact that its adherents didn’t invent anything, being too busy memorizing the “holy” Koran.
This discussion is going off-topic. If you wish to continue please take to the MF cafe. Mod
Sentient:
is a self-deluding attempt to make Islam peaceful.
What’s your point? Do you want to tell us that Christianity is more peaceful? Did you forget about the crusades? You also forget to mention the “peaceful” ways missionaries tried to convert South American Natives and Africans to Christianity. Yeah, … Islam is so bad nowadays, because they lost their battle against Christians … I’m sick and tired of all those misleading statements. You also suppressed to mention all the pogroms against the Jewish population in Europe. (For example in Spain Sephardi Jews were forced to convert to Catholicism, to move out of the country or to die.) There were also many atrocities of Christians against other Christians or pagans. Did the witch hunts never occur? What about the Protestant Huguenots being driven out of France? And lets not forget the Holocaust. Many may object and direct the focus at the Nazi party, but that explanation isn’t entirely correct. Check the internet for pictures of Catholic priests and Protestant priests doing the Hitler salute. Even at the end of WW II the Catholic Church helped many Nazis to escape.
So, … before denigrating Islam as a religion of war, we in the so called Christian West should look at the atrocities our own religious Institutions had participated in!
Remember: “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” (John 8:7)
Also we might want to ask ourselves, How did Europe become Christian?
People always forget that the clock did not start with Muslim invasion of Spain (which was misguided), but then they were not the first to force themselves on people. Christian had this singular distinction, and they continue to have it.
Jews were tribal, they never wanted to convert others only subjugate them.
It was Christians who started this unholy tradition and they never stopped. To this day it is still going strong: trying to bring human to the fold by enlightening them through mass murder, deceit in commercial activity, promotion of promiscuity,, libertine way of life, immorality, and consumerism.
However “uncouth” the Muslims might appear to be, let’s not forget that slaughter and conversion through force, bribery, promiscuity, is as Christian as mothers milk. The Muslims tried to emulate Christian way of doing things, they failed miserably, we can see what happened to the corrupt Ottoman empire.
Here I want to draw the distinction between the mad hateful Paulist variety of Christians (western Christians, and their reformed incarnations) and the real Christians (orthodox ones) who love and forgive.
With love for people and logic.
Jenn
Hey Jennifer, the Orthodox Christianity(Eastern Chalcedonian Catholic) is Paulist too.
Instead of closing the discussion at this point, you should’ve permitted a reply to this Islam bashing comment. It reinforces those intolerant widespread views of Islam, because, it’s one-sided and doesn’t consider that other religions committed atrocities as well.
I had great respect for Jehovah Witnesses and always treat them with courtesy because in a way, they are the real thing. Hundreds of them could have simply walked out of Hitler’s death machines by renouncing their faith, and they chose to die instead. But I’ve learned it’s a cult, and like other cults, the violence is turned inward against its unfortunate members.
The Russian government is correct to oppose them non-violently. “No coercion in matters of religion,” Sura 56 of the Koran’ is good advice for everyone. But of course when religion becomes weaponized or is more than a religion, as with the Salafist heresy and Scientology, then society needs the full set of tools in its toolbox.
This is from a Zerohedge comment:
“Some of the specifics appear to include exercising total control over all details of members’ lives, prohibiting blood transfusions for its members in defiance of doctors’ recommendations, defiance of government institutions and civic duties, refusal to serve in the army, etcetera. The big one, though, seems to be the expectation that members be hostile against all those who do not recognize JW teachings, thus inciting religious enmity.
http://tass.com/world/941007
http://tass.com/world/939781
http://tass.com/world/939582 “
The URL for this Jehovah Witness article is
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-20/russia-bans-jehovah%E2%80%99s-witnesses-extremist-organization
Bogus religions is a planet-wide problem.
There is absolutely no foundation for the claim at JW members are expected “to be hostile against all those who do not recognize JW teachings”.
Reason I know is that I have myself been a JW member in the past and know the rules by heart (everyone that has ever been a full member k of JW knows this). It also contradicts the missionary aspect of JW – which is a fundamental activity for the organization.
There are other aspects of the JW regulations that can be criticized, such as the promotion of non-education and anti-nationalism – but the above claim is not factual and should not be mixed into the discussion.
l agree B . I also agree with the Sakers conclusions and regret any rush to impute bad motives to any rank and file JWs. They follow in their personal lives the principals of Rom13 with the admonition to love their neighbour as themselves and obey the law of the land. But just imagine the world if all refuse to take up arms! But of course that is called madness by the rulers. But who can say they are sane themselves? Ex member.
But of course the rank-and-file are unaware of the real purposes of the organization. It’s like with most human rights or environment organizations. The rank and file have to be under the illusion that they are serving a good cause. Only those at the very top know. Some in the middle rung may suspect something. E.g. Greenpeace is a tool of economic sabotage in essence, but the regular members, i’m sure, believe it’s fighting for a good cause. It is true that these organizations do some good things for PR purposes, for show or just plain accidentally, as a side-effect. But they are evil at heart. How could an Orthodox Christian like The Saker think otherwise?
Tass is misinforming.
JW teach the bible and only the bible. The relation with God is individual and nothing is forced from the organisation.
The blood question has reference to the bible who says avoid blood.
Jesus said in the bible, spread my happy message and this is what JW do.
“Foreign agitators”? All 170 000 JW in Russia are Russians.
Tomsen
The Leaders of the JW are foreign, their organization is foreign and their ideology is foreign.
Sergey Naryshkin, the head of the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR), the ideas of “globalization, multiculturalism” pushed forward by the Western elites reach the “point when the very notion of majority in social processes becomes marginal. The majority is unable to protect its rights in the face of aggressive minorities, they are constantly forced to apologize and justify themselves for the fact of their very existence.”
https://www.rt.com/politics/386364-russia-west-information-war-naryshkin/
It’s extremely difficult for any cult members to leave the cult, especially if they are financially depend on it, for getting paid to go door to door, for example.
An aggressive militant minorities with the assistants of the foreign services are bringing down entire nations, right as we watch in horror.
Along with the ban on the Western socially- engineered cults, Russia is strengthening its own culture and tradition.
On Mar 16, 2017, Putin, who is known as the Pontiff or a Bridge Builder, has met with Metropolitan of Moscow and all Russia of Russian Orthodox old believers, not privately as before, but for an official summit between the Head of State and the Head of a real and legitimate religion. It was considered the first real meeting of this type in over 350 years. Putin pledged to direct funds to the Old Believers’ communities for the schools and for the construction of churches.
My understanding is that it is punishable by death to leave Islam. And in Malaysia, it is illegal to distribute books on Buddhism to Muslims. In Israel, Jews are given clear preference over everyone else, to an extreme. I seem to recall that there have been numerous internecine wars within Christianity and by Christians against non Christians.
Heck, when I told my Uncle, a rabbi, that I was studying Zen, he told me that I would experience ‘Spiritual Annihilation’ for doing so.
Point being that many religions, especially Monotheistic ones, are like Hotel California, once you’re in, you can’t get out. They are purposely addictive. Which is why Marx said they are opiates. Freely chosen, that’s fine. But if one is not allowed to exercise their own critical thinking and consciousness, trouble will result.
One basic principle is agreed on in all sane human societies. First, do no harm.
An interesting perspective, presented by Siddhartha Gotama, (aka the Buddha), was that the greatest cause of suffering is not physical suffering but the Tyranny of Views. That is, being so stuck in one’s own point of view, that when facts intervene, delusion is preferred to reality. Our individual and collective refusal to see things as they are, and act according to the Real is at the root of our individual and collective problem.
Eric:
Which is why Marx said they are opiates.
Without deeper knowledge of the origins of this statement I’m wondering if it had been directed at religions themselves or if it had been with regard of the respective leaders.
Your observation is absolutely correct that it’s the preachers (Rabbis, Imame, Priests) who have been – and still doing so – inciting their followers to hate members of other religions. If all those large Abrahamic religions would adhere to the Ten Commandments, then the world would be a better place. Another aspect that bothers me is that too many preachers of all the above mentioned religions collaborate with the military. The term “military priests” is a contradiction in itself.
Dear Scott. Please refer also to Eric who´s opinion I agree with.
However, JW is the least oppressive of many official religions why you cannot compare as you do.
The ideology cannot be “foreign” as JW ideology is based only, and I repeat only, on the bible.
So what are you gonna do now?
However, I acknowledge your and the Saker´s reference to Russia´s struggle to find its own identity, and we have a mutual disgust for Western globalism because we both know the hidden agenda and the Cabal behind it.
“It’s extremely difficult for any cult members to leave the cult, especially if they are financially depend on it, for getting paid to go door to door, for example.”
– It appears that you might be under the mistaken notion that Jehovah’s Witnesses “get paid” to do their door-to-door missionary work. As husband of a woman who has been a Witness most of her adult life, I can tell you that the Witnesses most certainly do not get paid for this activity in any way whatsoever. They do this because Jesus told them to “preach the Word throughout the entire world”. In other words, they do this as a requirement of their religion. One cannot be a JW without Witnessing.
There are people among them who do this full time, and are called “full time Pioneers” (missionaries) and they do this by holding part time jobs and living a rather simple life and do so VOLUNTARILY (caps for emphasis, not for “shouting”). No Sir, they do not get paid, but consider it a duty to God and their fellow man.
Lutherans have led a peaceful presence in Russia since Ivan the Terrible. Note that there are different branches (independent denominations) of Lutheranism. Some are as liberal as the EKD in Germany (for example, homosexuality is accepted, women can be pastors, Evolution is compatible with the Bible):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_in_Russia,_Ukraine,_Kazakhstan_and_Central_Asia
Others are as conservative as the SELK in Germany (for example, homosexuality is *not* accepted, only men can be pastors, Evolution is not compatible with the Bible):
http://ilc-online.org/members/europe/russia/
http://ilc-online.org/members/europe/siberia-russia/
Since the Russian government is in the business of picking and choosing religions, which Lutheran church organizations would the Russian government favor?
How will an invigorated Russia treat the Lutherans?
This paper is disturbing. Russia has a right to protect itself against foreign agitators. They have already enough problens within the country without adding others religious sects or NGOs.
In every country there are enough potential sources of conflicts. As soon as people belong to a party, a religious community or a sect, they are loosing some ability to be rational and getting along with others.
Belonging to the group becomes more important than searching with the other the Truth.
It is a natural process for people to get together but the State has to make sure that this cristalization process does not jeopardize the national consensus and generate chaos, misunderstanding and hate.
By reading you, it seems to be better to keep the papists in the West far away from the Orthodoxs. If you agree with this last point, you should not have a problem with keeping the JW away from Russia.
In others words, Russia should not add others segregating factors to what they have already which will be used by its ennemy to split the country.
I agree full with you Jean. And: Russia is at war, a war she never asked for. And at war other rules count. So it’s wise and understandable to ban influences which only divide and destroy her identity.
By reading you, it seems to be better to keep the papists in the West far away from the Orthodoxs.
I oppose Papism and the Papacy. But the Papists themselves I see like any other group of people, often far more Christian than most of us Orthodox. It is the ideas, the ideology, the heresies and their supporting institutions that I oppose. But the people themselves not. I even have one Traditionalist Catholic supporter and regular donor, even though he knows my opinions very well. This guys shames me with his judgment free kindness! Same thing with many of the Jews I met in my life: they were far kinder and far more honorable than many of my so-called ‘brothers’.
Besides, I would never approve any infringement on the freedom of religion of any person as long as it is within the minimal legal bounds set by society. I strongly believe that the best way to fight obscurantism is education, not censorship or, God forbid, persecution.
Yet at the same time, I think that any society has the right to set the legal bounds on what it would allow or not. But that has to be done publicly, carefully, logically and morally.
A tall order, I understand…
Cheers!
the thing that bothers me about Catholicism is that its made Mary a God – that bugs me. I don’t think she would want to be worshipped – intercessing between her Son and us. That’s just plain wrong.
Catholics say you can only get to Christ through the church – what BS
I’m not too fond of any church.
Ann:
Catholics say you can only get to Christ through the church
Perhaps without knowing Catholics seem to be close to the truth. You have to carefully distinguish, because the word Church isn’t as clearly defined as many may think. Most people immediately associate the word with the institution: Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, … If you look up the origins of the word you’ll find out that the word Church can also be translated as community.
Tyconius, a fifth century (possibly Donatist) theologian who influenced Augustine, taught that the church could be simultaneously considered to be both the body of Christ and the body of Satan, drawing on the passage in the Song of Songs where the beloved states: “I am black, but I am beautiful.” The parable of the wheat and the tares (in my opinion), and the way that Christ rebuked Peter, “get behind me Satan,” (also in my opinion) seems to support this. Anyhow, in regards to the Church, my former priest liked to say, “God works through the sacraments, but isn’t limited by them.” (not sure if that was opinion or doctrine)
My understanding is that the church is the body of Christ; those who seek to follow the call of Jesus faithfully. Thus, as a lapsed (Roman Catholic) I see all of those who follow His lead as my fellow travellers. In fact, I see all people as part of the one family. Not all non-Christians are bad, and not all Christians are good.
If god can be male why can god not be a woman ?
All this seems so ridiculous,. We humans like to project human qualities on the infinity of the Divine such as eternal friend father or mother etc, as that helps us on the path to the supreme discovery
Actually She is.
It’s without a shadow of a doubt , that our monotheistic God has been shaped after the much older Ninhursagh.
The one that can create life out of ribs, and so on.
http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/myths/texts/retellings/enkininhur.htm
“It made Mary a god”. False. Worshipping a creature, even Mary, as a god is specifically condemned by the Catholic Church. Look up latria vs hyperdulia. Orthodox and Roman Catholics have an almost indistinguishable position on Theotokos. History has shown that those Christians who have been reluctant to honor Mary as Theotokos (which is actually a reluctance to embrace the divinity of Christ) have been most susceptible to heresy, the prime example being the Nestorian churches which were the fertile soil for the prophet of Islam. Thus, also, the Protestant tendency of devolution toward anti-Trinitarianism – Oneness Pentecostalism, Jeheovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormonism and Unitarianism.
“I strongly believe that the best way to fight obscurantism is education,”
I agree with you but educate people should not be indoctrinate them and have them repeat the lesson. I am afraid that most religious teaching are indoctrination. The Truth is controlled by the religious authority and doubt is forbidden. Most of the time, they are generating fanatics.
With this biased eductaion, if there is only one religion in the country, it is not a problem as everybody has the same background. But if you have several then easily you have a similar situation to what happened in France and Germany where Catholics and Protestants have been fighting for years like today the Sunnis and the Shias in the M.E.
This is why, when there are many religions in a country like Russia, I find that it is a duty of the government to monitor the religious teaching and avoid destructive quarrels between the different religious communities.
Despite the widely accepted ecumenical movement Protestants are not accepted as godfathers in the Catholic Church.
Because to do so would be silly.
…..and from another time another place – gimme some of dat ole time religion – 😜
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-28/sydney-synagogue-appoints-administrator-which-sacks-rabbi/8479322
I agree this is a bit of a sticky issue. Bans on ideology don’t really work; they drive adherents underground, but rarely ‘stop’ people from believing what they believe. Bans likewise imbibe a certain mystery and allure to whatever has been banned, in ways making it more likely someone will be interested, and further possibly convinced, by said ideology. In my opinion, the only way to fight an idea is with a different idea. Likewise, freedom of speech should be as broad as possible (I don’t believe in limiting so-called ‘hate speech’ or having certain topics too-taboo-to-touch, but there is a rational basis for limiting libel, slander, and incitement).
The ‘but’ comes into play when it an organization crosses that admittedly grey line between a group and a cult. (Definitions become very problematic here. What truly separates the two? Can that definition resist the inevitable temptation of those in power to designate an annoying ‘group’ as a ‘cult’? I don’t have a good answer, I think a “I-know-it-when-I-see-it” case-by-case approach comes closest.) When a group advocates walling itself off from the rest of society, rejects the fundamental tenants of co-existence, rejects the values and norms of society at large, and seeks the conversion (and subordination) of everyone else, there’s a good chance the group is a cult.
Personally, I think a number of religious sects could arguably fall under this definition. Wahhabism, ultra-othordox Judaism, Evangelical Christianity could meet such criteria. But let’s take an easy one, Scientology. Should Scientology be given free reign to operate unimpeded? Isolate new members from their family, friends, and society? Brainwash them into giving the ‘church’ their life savings and turning them into drones for further converting the masses? As loathe as I am to put forth a parochial argument (which this undeniably is) one has to weigh ideals with reality. And the reality is, Scientology is wildly successful. And harmful. Living in Florida, I have seen that group transform the small city of St. Petersburg FL when they moved their headquarters there from California. It was not for the better.
Now, I wouldn’t say Jehova’s Witness are on par with Scientology, but how far are they off? JW believe in isolating themselves from non-JW, convince new members their eternal salvation lies in converting non-believers, and indoctrinating a belief systems often times (not always) at odds with society at large. The idea that the state should focus on specific violations, or pass laws requiring blood transfusions for minors are a good step but fall short in terms of practicality. If a JW knows there is a possibility that by bringing their child to a doctor, the child may be forced by law to have a transfusion, what will happen? They will refuse to bring the child in the first place. This happens all the time in the US, even though there are specific laws against child neglect (under which such refusal would fall). The laws will forever be playing catch-up to reality.
I have known many JW and on the individual level I find them to be very kind-hearted people who truly believe what they preach. However, on a societal level I think its a hard argument to make that a group seeking to wall itself off from ‘others,’ that rejects empirical science, and that doesn’t attempt to co-habitate but convert, is not healthy for society.
Is Russia over-reacting on this score? In many ways I agree the answer is ‘yes’ but at the same time I can’t say they’re entirely off base either. Sticky indeed.
And do you know what happens to a JW child that by the law (here in Canada) and in order to save child’s life had a blood transfusion? I personally know (as a doctor) of several cases in which the parents and the JW community disowned and abandoned the child after the haemotransfusion.
R
right on R – I agree with you there – they are ideologues in the extreme – I have no idea what they worship but it must be Old Testament – which IMNSHO – (in my not so humble opinion) is always a fundamentalist type of mind set – whether its Christians worshiping the testament that Christ came to replace – which is actually a national religion –
I mean the old testament is a national religion – whereas the New Testament has no nationality at all – in fact Christ was killed by his own nation
If you believe in one wisdom; do unto others as you would have them do unto you; and behave that way, you are a Christian. You may also be muslim and you may also be buddhist….. What was that other one?
It’s easy to teach, easy to learn and easy to practice.
It begins with self respect which begins with a healthy culture.
Everything else is hocus pocus and commercialism.
A few facts about the US based organization called Jehovah Witnesses in Russia
http://lawinrussia.ru/content/svideteli-iegovy-protiv-minyusta-kogda-budet-postavlena-tochka
The current ban is not a “Putin’s ban” but the decision of the Supreme Court of Russia based on the laws and the Constitution. I want to make it very clear that all the bans imposed on the JW organizations activities in Russia were made according to the courts and after the proper investigations done by the law enforcement.
1. This current Supreme Court decision is directed at one particular organization that is called the Central Management of the JW in Russia. It’s a legal umbrella for 395 different organizations. All together, there are about 2277 organizations of the JW with 175,000 followers in Russia.
2. The current ban is the result of the multiple legal battles and lawsuits of the state against the JW and them against the authorities. It all started at the beginning of the 2000s, with one of the first decision made by the district court in Moscow in 2003. It reignited in 2011 after Nataliya Podlojevich refused to let her 5 year old son to be treated in the hospital, after that the child died.
3. Russia’s Supreme court didn’t ban the ideology, but the activities of the JW Management Center, which was lead by the US citizens. As I understand most of them had the Catholic and Protestant background, meaning that prior to the managing the JW center in Russia they worked in deferent capacities for the US faith based organizations.
4. The Supreme court decision literally sounds that the organization was banned for the “extremist activities,” which includes political extremism, and anti-state activities
5. 8 out of 395 organization that constitutes the JW in Russia have been investigated and charged for extremism.
6. Members of this sect are banned from serving in the military, celebrating any country’s holiday, public and religious, banned from agreeing with the country’s state symbols. They are being brainwashed to fight against the government, authorities and law enforcement when and where their leaders would tell them. They reject the laws of the country and the constitutional authorities. In addition, members of the organization demonstrate aggressive stance against the Christians and Muslims. They spread the ideology that support the terrorists attacks as the “fight against the state.” They take an aggressive stance against having children.
They also actively seek to convert Muslims, and make their members move to the Muslim populated regions.
https://life.ru/t/%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%8F/1001578/sozdaiut_tip_chielovieka_ghotovogho_na_tierakt_za_chto_zaprietili_svidietieliei_iieghovy
7. They reject the constitution and the laws of the land, but demand the privileged tax free status for their organizations.
There are two types of the extremists cults, those that direct their extremism on others, and those that direct their extremism on their members. The JW in Russia do both.
The supreme court ban on the JW in Russia is not a ban on their religious believes, but the ban on them violation the Constitution and the constitutional rights and freedoms of their members.
The ban stated that the JW proclaim themselves to be the only true religion, and the other church and religions to be false. They also proclaim their superiority over the people of the other religious, that can lead to the ethnic and religious tensions in Russia.
Right now, the JW members are preparing the to take their lawsuit against the Russian government to the ECHR.
Thanks Scott for spelling it out in detail the types of anti-Russian state activities that they practice. Russia has too many anti-state groups already causing dissension. To accept one more foreign backed group. Now if they will only get rid of the others as well.
Maybe you can enlighten us about others which should get rid of?
@enlighten us about others which should get rid of?
Definitely Islam and Judaism, intrinsically inimical to the Church of Christ and all too often (even today) open enemies of the Russian State.
Buddhism is intrinsically amicable towards Christianity and the Russian State. Buddhists have considered the Russian Tsar as the incarnation of White Tara, a bodhisattva typically associated with Buddhist tantric practice and considered an emanation of Chenresig (the bodhisattva who embodies the compassion of all Buddhas). They made even to prove that the Romanovs were directly descended from Sucandra, a legendary king of Shambhala!
Here is a basis for Eurasianism
Do you know how many russian muslims in Russia? over 22 million.. now go tell them that they should be get rid of.
Since you asked ,Mikhail Khodorkovsky’s so-called “Open Russia” is one more. Despite being ruled an undesirable foreign backed group. They are holding demonstrations in Russia today.They are probably the most dangerous of the fifth column groups in Russia. And need to be dealt with at once. Its very likely that the Russian government has lists of the traitors belonging to that organization. And if not after today they should.That organization needs to be ruled a criminal enterprise. And the leadership inside Russia. Along with its most disruptive members need to be arrested and prosecuted. The time for playing with fifth column groups should be finished.This year is a dangerous time for leniency,2017 being the anniversary of the Russian Revolution. And with the Western “jihad” against Russia there is no time for kid gloves with these treasonous elements.
https://www.rt.com/news/386560-khodorkovskys-open-russia-protests/
In a nutshell, Scot, JW actively fight any and all patriotic sentiments: it is their conviction that the world as a whole, and the state in particular, are firmly in the hands of Satan and therefore Christians should have nothing to do with them.
1. Their followers are, in particular, forbidden from taking any oath of office.
2. Not only can they not do military service – let alone join the army – but they should not pay taxes because part of their money will go to the army or to buying weapons.
3. They are forbidden from joining political parties or even taking part in political debates, since the world can only be improved after Armageddon when Jesus begins to rule it. Meanwhile, they are to distance themselves, just as Jesus refused to have anything to do with those who wanted him to lead a rebellion against the Romans.
4. Churches other than JW are evil outfits retarding the coming of the kingdom by associating the word of God with rites and ceremonies of pagan origin: JW are particularly hostile to the mass and to all rites and ceremonies.
Etc.
It is a pity the Saker failed to take these issues into consideration: JW are definitely not an innocent bible-thumping sect, but a group determined to undermine the body politic – whether their members know this or not. Patriotism, or even simple civic (non political) activity is anathema to them.
I leave aside their quaint belief that only 144.000 souls will be saved, and the rest – the 7B – will be destroyed. Destroyed, as in “obliterated”.
The figure of the ultimate 144.000 just shows how diabolic the whole thing is. We will al go to hell for eternity well maybe there will be some nice girls there so not so bad after all.
Whatever Russia does or will do or does not do it will be for the MSM a reason to fuel the phobia
Most of the points you bring up under 6) and 7) are simply not correct.
I could go deep into detail here but doubt that it would do any good – unless someone is interested.
Note that I don’t agree with JW’s policies on a number of things, but based on facts and not distortion of the truth.
All points brought by Scott, including 6) and 7), are absolutely correct. This is how JW and Mormons act in Eastern Europe, including Russia. There they are not the law abiding (at least on the surface) peaceful religious organizations as they are here in America. I witnessed it myself in many of those countries.
R
Once again – they are not. The following parts are completely wrong:
6) “They are being brainwashed to fight against the government, authorities and law enforcement when and where their leaders would tell them. They reject the laws of the country and the constitutional authorities. In addition, members of the organization demonstrate aggressive stance against the Christians and Muslims. They spread the ideology that support the terrorists attacks as the “fight against the state.” They take an aggressive stance against having children”
JW does not endorse “fighting against the government” – on the contrary, cooperation is promoted (but no participation in elections or politics otherwise)
It is self evident that “an aggressive stance” against other religions would be counter productive for a missionary organization such as JW. They would simply not win anybody over.
“Support the terrorist attacks” is a total fabrication – JW has zero tolerance for violence of any kind. This also why they refuse to take up arms.
“Aggressive stance against having children” – another total fabrication taken out of the blue. I have never ever heard of any of this during my several years in the JW organization.
7) “They reject the constitution and the laws of the land” – there is no such thing being promoted (see above)”
“They also proclaim their superiority over the people of the other religious, that can lead to the ethnic and religious tensions in Russia” – I never heard a leader or regular member of JW claim any of this. It is correct that they believe their religion to be the only true – but I suppose this is the motivation most people have for entering (or staying) a religion that corresponds to their belief.
I am on going to take this further or enter any type of flame war. This is simply the facts based on my long former membership in JW. To put it in a nutshell, I am no longer part of JW since many years, neither do I endorse them, but the facts should be presented accurately.
JW people are characterized by 1) the belief that they are part of the only true religion 2) no participation in nation building or the political process on earth 3) non-violence 4) preparedness to take the legal consequences for their actions or non-actions, if it goes against the written word of the Bible, as they perceive it.
There is nothing more and nothing less to this – and I quite frankly can’t understand where the position of the Russian authorities on this is coming from.
Your characterization of JW in 1), 2), 3) and 4) describes in other words exactly what Scot did in his comment.
R
If cooperation with government is only encouraged in restricted areas, and discouraged or even outright forbidden in others, what kind of cooperation is that?
It is much more than noncooperation with government, it is “no participation in nation building” and this I consider an antisocial stand.
R
Thanks a lot, Scott.
I am very surprised and unhappy, that Saker, – whom I respect a lot – does not see all of the things, described by you.
“They spread the ideology that support the terrorists attacks as the “fight against the state.””
I find that hard to believe, Scott. I don’t think they serve in the army and want to kill people. They were antifascists during the war, but they were nonviolent.
“The ban stated that the JW proclaim themselves to be the only true religion, and the other church and religions to be false.”
Where have I heard that before?
Scott,
Always enjoy reading your posts.
However, as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses who frequents this site looking for nuanced coverage of the current geo-political situation I am surprised at your answers here.
I could go on for a while, but I think I would like to talk about just a few of these here.
“3. Russia’s Supreme court didn’t ban the ideology, but the activities of the JW Management Center, which was lead by the US citizens. As I understand most of them had the Catholic and Protestant background, meaning that prior to the managing the JW center in Russia they worked in different capacities for the US faith based organization.”
This is one of the people the Supreme Court heard from during the trial.
Vasiliy Kalin, a representative of the Administrative Center of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Russia, appeals to government authorities to stop the unjust persecution of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/by-region/russia/vasiliy-kalin-statement-on-ban-of-jehovahs-witnesses/
Vasiliy Kalin is a Russian national – rehabilitated after serving time in prison for his faith in the Soviet Union. The others taking the lead at the administrative center were Russian nationals.
Are the loyalties of Russian Orthodox citizens of the United States to be questioned simply because the Patriarch lives in Russia? Of course, given the current situation between the Anglo-American Empire and the Russian Federation, such a thing seems possible? But would such an accusation make sense?
Jehovah’s Witnesses have been active in Russia since the turn of the previous century (1900’s). A Russian citizen who is one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is no more “brainwashed” and under the control of the US based organization than the many law-abiding Orthodox readers of this site who follow their religious convictions while loving Russia, the Russian Orthodox Church, and Russian culture all while maintaining their love for their fellow man wherever they live
6. Members of this sect are banned from serving in the military, celebrating any country’s holiday, public and religious, banned from agreeing with the country’s state symbols. They are being brainwashed to fight against the government, authorities and law enforcement when and where their leaders would tell them. They reject the laws of the country and the constitutional authorities. In addition, members of the organization demonstrate aggressive stance against the Christians and Muslims. They spread the ideology that support the terrorists attacks as the “fight against the state.” They take an aggressive stance against having children.
None of Jehovah’s Witnesses are banned from serving in the military. We simply take seriously Jesus’ stand stated at John 18:36 where he told Pontius Pilate that his Kingdom was no part of this world. Jehovah’s Witnesses are politically neutral and this firm stance is what has embroiled them in controversy during the Second World War in Quebec, the USA, Nazi Germany, and the Soviet Union. It continued with Witnesses I know serving time in prison for refusing the draft during the Vietnam War with hundreds of them still in prison for the same stand today in places as varied as South Korea and Eritrea.
Following Jesus’ commands means following all of them. And while JWs do not participate in wars and refuse to celebrate holidays that violate the politically neutral stand Jesus took. Your statements about them rejecting the law and conventional authority is patently false. Jehovah’s Witnesses the world over are known for being law-abiding citizens who are valued employees. pay their taxes and are helpful to all in the community. We believe firmly in the Bible principle outlined by the Apostle Paul at Romans 13:1-4
” Let every person* be in subjection to the superior authorities,+ for there is no authority except by God;+ the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.+ 2 Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. 3 For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad.+ Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good,+ and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath* against the one practicing what is bad.”
Clearly, while the government is a superior authority that must be obeyed, said authority is granted it by God. Human governments have no God-given right to demand obedience to commands that overstep the commandments of God.
No one is made to move anywhere. If the Witnesses faith is growing throughout the earth it is because we take Jesus command to preach the good news (Matthew 28:19, 20) to mean exactly that. We preach to everyone, including Muslims, for that reason exactly. I don’t see the aggression being committed here. God has given all of us free will, people are free to listen or refuse as they see fit. Jesus and that of the early Christians attracted many from all over the world and earned them persecution as well.
Scripture tells us that Jesus was a preacher and teacher, not someone pushing for rebellion against secular authority.
Of course, he was accused of that, wasn’t he?
Scott, I love reading your posts and hearing your opinions. If you want a different perspective regarding the trial, ban, etc. you can find it here.
https://www.jw.org/en/news/releases/by-region/russia/supreme-court-rules-against-jehovahs-witnesses/
or here in Russian.
http://bit.ly/2oRTtaU
Scott, please post your comment to the Guardian article.
Thanks Scott,
I want to add that Russian courts were correct. Any and all organizations (pseudo religious or other) should be outlawed.
Just see how they swarm around this article.
Thanks Scott for sticking to the facts and providing us the salient details about this decision by the Russian courts. All theoretical considerations aside, when an organization behaves as these JWs do, the state has the right to protect its citizens from a real and practical threat.
On an amusing note, you will note the almost nil coverage in the western MSM of this event (yes they went thru a fake indignation charade for about 5 minutes and then quickly moved on), why? Because, this rare time, somebody in the MSM made the correct judgment that harping on this issue would only backfire; i.e. informing the narcissistic masses about a Russian ban on annoying and obnoxious JWs would only serve to make Russia and Putin more popular in the US & the West – that is how annoying and disliked JWs are.
People should not ignore the facts presented by user “R” about how children are ostracized and psychologically tortured by the JW cult leadership for the “crime” of being forced to undergo a blood transfusion in order to save the child. This happened several time in Canada.
We must disagree here. I think that Russia has seen how difficult in the West it is, once a virus is allowed to take hold, to control it. And wants to ban it before it becomes a real problem. Does it violate some claim to “human rights”,probably. But Russia see’s that survival and stability trumps the ability of Western regimes to subvert a country, by claiming human rights protections.They obviously believe ,and have some evidence for that belief. That anti-Russian foreign elements use the JW’s to harm Russia.And the last thing Russia needs today is “one more” foreign influenced 5th column element in Russia. Being allowed to freely sow anti-Russian government propaganda,under the guise of “religious freedom”. They also know if they try to arrest and deal with each case individually the full weight of the Western propaganda machine will attack them over it with each single case. They don’t think its worth while dealing with a thousand Navalny or Pussy Riot type affairs,over and over again in the Western press.Maybe even demonstrations in Russia herself over it. And that by banning the anti-state cult at one time,they deal with the Russophobic propaganda at one time.
The West and Israel are the masters at seeding outside influences into a country. Spreading subversive propaganda among those groups. And “voila” you have a cadre of agents available to do your bidding among your own people and against their own government. We’ve seen how just by letting foreign NGO’s,even ones who on the surface do good works,operate in a country. They are infiltrated and used to weaken that country. And make it “ready” for total foreign subversion.The examples are endless,Ukraine over 23 years,Russia herself during the 1990’s,Hong Kong recently,Cuba several times,Egypt with the Arab Spring,the Wahhabi’s sent by Saudi Arabia throughout the World over the years, etc,etc,etc.The use of these groups in today’s World, by Western intelligence agencies, are direct threats to the nations assaulted by them. If its believed that human rights (a very vague term in itself) can trump national survival,then the West wins. Russia seems to have made a decision (at least partly) to not allow that in their country.
If we lived in a “perfect” World. Where things are like they seem on the surface.Where foreign intelligence groups were not constantly attacking other countries (especially the RF) then yes,it would be wrong to ban groups like the JW’s. But we don’t live in that World. We live in a period of a World cold war. With foreign groups working 24/7 to destroy Russia. And in that World, Russia must be able to assure internal security. And so,groups with devious foreign ties need to go.And that one was sent packing. Now if only they would do that with the other anti-Russian Western funded groups.But so far its baby steps.
Though in principle I would agree with the Saker, and tend to defend religion, in practice I agree with Uncle Bob: the Zio-Capitalists have taken over “the Left” and are adept at using Liberalism to destroy Liberty. Every resource war, every act of destabilization and civil war from Afghanistan to Bosnia to Kosovo to Iraq to Somalia to Georgia to Libya to the Arab Spring to Ukraine to Syria was committed in the name of Freedom, by the Armed Forces of Freedom, in murderous invasions named “Operation Eternal Freedom”. These narrow minded religious sects which manipulate the minds of their followers – sects such as Trotskyism, Neo-Nazism, Wahabism, backwoods Christianity and Orthodox Judaism – are themselves being manipulated by the cynical agents of Mammon.
After reading most of the comments: my personal views about the incompatibility between organized religions and Nation states are strengthened.
We have to ask: are the borders of nation states (which are artificial anyway) are defensible on religious grounds?
Is the law of land defensible on religious grounds?
Let’s look at a couple of scenarios to develop this question.
1. If a president of a certain organized religion is elected in a country whose does he obey? His spiritual leader or the law of the land? If he follows his faith: this means that he is by necessity subordinate to his spiritual leader–even when he proclaims to practice otherwise. Does he not? A faithful religious follower must follow the edicts of his faith to save his soul. Expecting him to do otherwise is a foolish expectation. Of course, he will pretend to follow the law of the land, however whenever an opportunity presents to help out his spiritual views and meet his religious obligations, he will always do it.
2. Is it possible, or even advisable, to force a denizen to follow the law of the land which is in direct contradiction to his organized faith? He will follow the laws grudgingly, always working to change the laws to suit his spiritual mandate.
There are always cases of able bodied people refusing to serve in the armed forces, or follow some health guidelines which prevents communicable diseases. People will demand exemptions to ingest prohibited substances on religious grounds.
When you come down to it, there is really no identifiable difference between what we call an organized religion and a cult; just the number of followers is more. All religions started with a handful of followers in the beginning. Looking from a purely secular point of view (the view of Nation States), any loyalty to anyone other than the state is potentially dangerous to the working of the state. It is especially so, if that cult or religion is controlled from the enemy lands.
There will always be conflict between nation states, and organized religions. On the one hand, individual religions which empower individuals are more compatible with diverse lands. On the other hand, free movement of people to be move about is more conducive to organized religion.
The former case, allows people to make choices which enables them to be loyal to their country, with the immigration becoming only desirable only in extreme cases of local law. In the later case, people will have to immigrate first to lands acceptable to them, followed by dispersion to foreign lands which are to be exploited for the motherland.
The two clear cases we know of are Israel and Iran. The religious leaders control the behavior of all adherents all over the world, the ultimate loyalty is to Iran or to Israel. These two states are built to favor their own people: protect them locally, provide them safe havens, their people work for the interests of their countries wherever they live, they have a central education, they acts with a hive mentality, and they have no loyalty to the nations they actually reside in.
I believe that Russia recognizes this, they see the power of central control through their interaction with Iran (which is new), and they did not want to have a foreign loyal cult/religion living in their country. After all, Russia has the best of both worlds, a nation state and a largely orthodox population. They Chechens they have are Sunni ( not an organized religion) who do not work for Saudi or some other foreign element. Others are very small minorities, on whose hands they have suffered the soviet era, so they will not allow that mistake to be repeated.
I think the case of Jehovah’s witnesses, although bad PR, will benefit the Russian people in the long run. What is good for Russia is not necessarily good for humanity at large. What is good for organized religions is neither good for countries, nor good for humanity at large. I will take the lesser of two evils.
Jenn
Jenn L Shannon:
If a president of a certain organized religion … this means that he is by necessity subordinate to his spiritual leader
I assume that you’re thinking of a human spiritual leader. If humans want to follow other humans they’re free to do so, but they should be aware of the fact that no man is without failure.
Would it be that bad to simply keep to the Ten Commandments? By the way: They are part of the Old Testament and thus are the basis for Judaism, Islam and Christianity. It’s humans who’re subverting those rules. Just look at the sorry state of our Western societies. Where are the limits? Whilst it’s sometimes nice to watch skirts getting shorter in summer, it’s gotten to a point that I’m wondering if we’re living in a large swinger club. There are hardly any female musicians who’re not sexualizing their public appearances – riding naked on a wrecking ball?!? Whilst emancipation definitely had some positive aspects, people nowadays separate because of toothpaste tubes squeezed out in the wrong way. Patch-work families are the new normal … Why marrying in a traditional way with a white wedding gown? For many it’s just a way to have a big party …
If a practicing catholic/Mormon/Buddhist/Shia becomes president of the US, is he not subservient to the central religious authority?
Is is fair to expect that he should not follow his faith?
Is Irani government, not officially supporting the ruckus in the M.E.? Is Ayatollah Khamenei not the ultimate controller of these Irani soldiers fighting in foreign countries?
Does Israel not have control over the Russian 5th column, Ukraine, Georgian, EU, and the rest of the governments? Is it fair to expect them to not exercise this control? Why should a Jew not support Israel over his own country’s welfare?
Why should a Shiite not support and obey their religious leader? Is it even fair to expect them to do so?
The trouble is that organized religions and nations states are untenable: unless they are one and the same!
What about minorities? Well we read Saker’s argument about detriment of majority (in his Trump article) not being good to accommodate minorities. Should minorities expect that the majority should compromise on their own matters of faith to accommodate the minority?
Such expectations are pipe dreams, they can not exist in a harmonious equilibrium. There is always an undercurrent of resentment among the accommodating majority (or minority). In normal circumstances, the minorities give in to the majority–begrudgingly–but they are always waiting for a chance.
If the majority is controlled by a minority openly, it leads to a disastrous end like Spain, India, Bangladesh, South Africa, Rwanda, and other such places.
On the other hand, if a minority controls a majority from the background, such as Israelites during the time of Joseph, it leads to the fracas when the control becomes brazen and caution is thrown to wind through complacency: ever wonder why the Egyptians turned on Israelite’s during Mose’s time? Why the Spanish, the poles, and the German turned on the Jews? Why there is antisemitism is almost predictable cyclical?
People are people, they act in expected ways, organized religion and nation states are mutually exclusive, there will always be resentment in any diverse population. Paradoxically, development depends on diversity while peace depends on homogeneity. Organized religion is one of the major root cause of smooth running of human societies. Of course enlightenment and individual faith (not subservient to other humans) can exist in any social structure, nation states, local government, among different religions, philosophies. An individual of personal faith can live in India (no one has to eat beef to live), in Europe (one does not have to eat pro to live), In the west (drinking alcohol is not necessary for life), In M.E (you don’t have to eat pork, or drink alcohol).
Most of the world does not look on murder, rape, theft, and other common crimes kindly. These are universally abhorred.
In the end, only if one is not forced to engage in rites by an organized religion, he can live anywhere in the world harmoniously, without generating resentment. This is only possible through an system of faith which is not organized, which is not ritualistic, which does not force people to convert others, I think one can look at present day religion to see which religion fits the bill in its universality ;-)
I will disregard your last paragraph for being off topic.
Jenn
A correction:
I wrote ,”Organized religion is one of the major root cause of smooth running of human societies.” by mistake. It should have been, “Organized religion is one of the major root obstacle to the smooth running of human societies”
You probably made a Freudian slip, in which case you are smarter than you think.
You offer no proof whatsoever for your statement, though it is part of the zeitgeist.
What, if anything, do you mean by ‘organized religion’ ? And would ‘disorganized religion’ meet with your approval?
What other aspect of human endeavour works better without organization, than with it?
But on your anti-feminist section, I offer this addition: Mad Donna offered blowjobs to anyone who voted for Hillary. Does that mean Mad Donna thinks that women have penises?
Dear Franz: No, it was a typo!
Any individual who works for two opposing parties (two feuding masters) is of necessity not working in good faith.
Disorganized is not is not the opposite of organized! The distinction is more of along the lines of an empowered individual versus a group lackey (a worker bee of the hive).
Your last paragraph is off topic, so I am going to ignore it with “prejudice” :-)
Jenn
Uncle Bob 1:
5th column …
You’re correct with your observation that many western NGO’s have been subverted and are merely 5th columns.
With regard to JW I’m sharing The Saker’s point of view. The decision to fight JW is an idiocy.
Back to the topic of 5th columns: You forgot the elephant in the room and that animal is called corporations. All corporations with ties to the West (be it entirely Western corporations or even joint-ventures) can be used to subvert the civilian population of the Russian Federation.
All it tells me is that Russia is afraid. JW is a top down organisation ruled by whatever is printed in the “Watch tower”. Putin sees this as a loose end, and try to close it. Not strange, given the circumstances. Trust is rare these days.
What would be the use of trusting JW?
Well, JW is actually one of the few group of people on earth you could trust. They go in prison for their belief in Jesus and have been executed for refusing nazism, they dont steal, dont lie, dont make fraud, dont kill.
Do you know anybody with a backbone like that?
Yeah. But they want your soul in return for not stealing from you or stabbing you in the back.
Or, as Heinrich Boll put it in Group Portrait With Lady: “It is amazing how some people will do the right thing, even when it is to their advantage.”
Besides, it is questionable whether a religion without a liturgical tradition can be a religion at all. Judaism for instance is certainly not one. Nor are the other forty times forty cults spawned by Protestantism of all kinds.
JWs are merely more psychotic ‘exceptionals’ with brass knobs on. They shall not be missed.
How Jehovah’s Witnesses leaders hide child abuse secrets at all costs
https://www.revealnews.org/article/how-jehovahs-witnesses-leaders-hide-child-abuse-secrets-at-all-costs/
JW Murderers In The News
http://www.silentlambs.org/murderjwfathers.htm
The South Carolina case of a Jehovah’s Witness father murdering his wife and children appears to be an ongoing problem that seems to occur when JW fathers become emotionally disturbed. To understand the reason why this phenomena presents itself you must understand the theology of the religion itself. Anyone that becomes a Jehovah’s Witness must accept that they are part of the only “truth.” That “truth” is defined as being the only persons on earth that are approved by God.
…When you consider that Jehovah’s Witnesses are a relatively small religion, under one million members in the USA it is disturbing to see that most cases that involved the murder of a family by the father in recent years have had JW connections. Is this just a coincidence? Could it be that the theology and doctrine of Jehovah’s Witnesses creates a type of time bomb that can be tripped of the right set of circumstances presents it?
I don’t think JW themselves teach or induce any of this, but they tend to attract people who are already destabilised and who are glad to receive the personal attention offered by JW: they knock at your door, and offer to visit you as many time as you let them, and bring you “Good News from God” – that the title of their teaching manual.
Then they gradually bring you to understand that the world around you is evil, in the hands of the devil, and you should shun it. They don’t tell you to fight it, but if you have an ongoing conflict with someone in family or environment, and are psychologically unstable or disturbed, then you may feel it is better to “confront the evil around you” rather than just shun it.
Bold move, next step, ban Baptist romancatholic orthodox and Islam and bhuddism and hinduism oh and juche too, lets have only one sound christian congregation and ban all other religions that is biblical.
This should be looked at as a test case. There are plenty of religious sects that represent a danger to the functioning of Russian society of which, radical islam stands on top. The provision of being able to step in and ban a religious practice is a necessary step to defend the civilization. This may be a clumsy step but the JW is probably the best test ground to set a legal precedent. There is zero risk of violence from this group and, as far as I know, there are no violent sycophantic supports of JW either.
“A danger to the functioning of Russian society”: JW are currently too few to do that, but that’s exactly what their activity will produce if allowed to increase.
They preach complete and uncompromising disengagement from “the world” as being irredeemably corrupt and in the full control of demonic forces, which means there is no point at all in trying to save it. The only attitude is to shun it and preach to as many people as possible so they can also shun it and wait in the margins for the coming of Armaggedon and the subsequent advent of the kingdom of God.
“There are plenty of religious sects that represent a danger to the functioning of Russian society”
True.
“of which, radical islam stands on top.”
False, zionist “Judaism” is by far the most dangerous.
I can agree with that.
However, if that is going to be addressed, the Birobidzhan enclave would need to be dealt with too. I’ve no idea how that happened in the first place but it would represent a permanent danger.
The Soviets tried to give each national ethnic people in the USSR a “homeland” area. With most ethnic peoples there was an area where the majority, or at least large numbers of them lived. So they set up “autonomous republics” or “autonomous regions” for those peoples.One of the peoples they couldn’t do that easily for was the Jews. They lived all over the Western Soviet regions (mostly Western areas), and among other national peoples. The Soviets feared alienating the other peoples by setting up a “Jewish autonomous ” area in the Western USSR. They also were afraid of the spread of zionism among the USSR’s Jews.Having such a vast landmass as the USSR. They picked the Birobidzhan region to form that autonomous area for Jews.Like many of the other smaller autonomous areas they set up. The majority peoples in those areas ended by being Russian. A few worked as they hoped. But in particular the Jewish one didn’t . Jews were more than “reluctant” to move thousands of miles from their traditional areas of residence.And when the war broke out their was less interest in it. It never as far as I’ve heard had a majority Jewish population. And was only used as a showcase. To say “see even the Jews in the USSR have their own autonomous republic”.
Thank you…thats why I asked to define radical islam. Many people consider someone who practices islam as following radical islam. Thats wrong.
Can you define radical islam? there are sects in islam, but radical Islam? Is a muslim who practices islam one who follows radical islam?
I’ve no idea how to define “radical islam”. I can tell when I see it though and it usually involves a lot of blood. I wish I had both a better definition as well as a way to easily understand who is and who is not “radical”.
Perhaps one can simply say that any religion or ideology that aims at getting people to believe and live as if they do not belong with the national community, with the idea that this national community should be shunned for being irretrievably corrupt and misdirected, is a danger.
Wahhabism for instance works to convince its followers that the only legitimate society is one based on theor conception of Sharia.
JW is even more radical: they teach that the world in all its aspects belongs to Satan, and national states exist to serve him, not God. “For God was in charge, the world wouldn’t be in its current mess.” Therefore, any reforms will only reinforce Satan’s rule, and merely delay Armaggedon and the ensuing defeat of “the world, the flesh and the devil.”
Therefore, let us form a separate society of righteous people who live strictly by biblical injunctions (as JW interpret them), and have nothing at all to do with the world.
This is their interpretation of “being in the world but not of the world”: the role of a JW is to teach these things, so that as many people as possible separate themselves from society, and thus have a chance of escaping the final destruction, and being counted among the saved – the little remnant” which will repopulate the world after the rest have been destroyed.
They quote all the relevant bible verses in support of their assertions – taken out of context, and ignoring other verses that may contradict them.
All this is set out in a teaching manual known as “Good News from God”: 15 lessons, very well researched and intelligently organised pedagogically, the major tool being the oral comments given during the individual lessons.
For instance, Lesson 10, “How to recognise the (one) true religion”, demonstrates that since Jesus travelled to villages and towns teaching, and JW are the only ones that do do-to-door teaching, it follows that JW are the true, and currently the only, true religion.
Then they explain that Jesus was open to everyone, but joined no party of sect or association, political or otherwise, therefore no JW should join anything that is organised by their community – least of all by the State, since states are fully controlled by the devil, as his chosen instruments.
I don’t know why the Russian media latched onto blood transfusion as “proof” of extremism, instead of discussing the real, and obvious problems posed by JW to the integrity of the national community.
Yes, there could be a PR problem especially if the JW run to the international court ( to which Russia has not given any jurisdiction) and here and there to appeal which they have every right to do.
After all, it is Russia that is stressing norms of International Law these days and the need for them.
when I was growing up in North Dakota there were bearded, plainly dressed, taciturn folk who would be seen in town rarely because they lived out in the countryside mainly and stayed there.
” They are Doukhabors”–I was told by my academic family—“they ran afoul of the Czar and the Russian Orthodoxy with their stubborn pacifism and old time Christianity. Sometimes you have to pay a price for a too strongly held belief which you insist on displaying publicly.”
The blood transfusion issue is always curious to me because most who argue against the JW position are ignorant in two areas:
1)The position of abstaining from blood is a biblical command (Acts 15:29) for all followers of Christ. However a blood transfusion(BT), which is a modern development, is not specifically discussed and becomes a matter of individual conscience.
2) In virtually every case a BT is not the ONLY option and in most cases it isn’t even the best option. The advances in medicine are impressive and there are many alternatives to a BT.
Now in the extremely rare case scenario of, receive a BT or die, most JW’s would exercise faith in God with His guarantee of a resurrection (Jesus performed resurrections as proof guarantee). Has a JW ever died because of refusal of a BT? Yes. However, today it is a very rare occurrence.
It is true that we owe to JW much of the development in saving lives without blood transfusions. Studying how low on Hb one can survive under diferrent circumstaces was possible by studying the cases of JW who refused to have transfusion. This allowed for the current very judicous use of blood. However, we reached the point where there is no more room to survive wihout it. And, yes, most JW do not survive when those who receive blood do. I respect people’s decisions regarding their lives and well being no matter JW or not as long as they have clear understanding of all options and consequences. However, it is constant failure when it comes to children, despite all legal regulations.
R
Fair enough Saker.
Dont worry, although this is a sad shame day, banning and seizing assets of a vulnerable group who are in compliance, then we still respect Putin, Russia´s Government for what they have achieved in many other areas the last decades.
But I have still not seen any due explanation as to why this happen, as the extremist charge is ridiculous, especially with the fluffy court examination and explanations.
I have myself 3 theories:
1. Russia have adopted the American/Jewish way: Attack and invade the most vulnerable on false accusations, dominate and seize their property, gold and valuables.
2. The Ortodox Church seek to eliminate religious competition and take over spiritual controle.
3. The old story about the Christians who give God first priority and the Emperor (the State) second.
I am mostly in for 3. as what I hear is bitterness from citizens that someone refuse the State slavery and maintain their integrity, while they have to slave and obey, but I would be delighted if any one know and could fix the real reason in a few lines.
You know, somewhere in the bible you have this story about Jesus followers who pay taxes, follow all penalty laws, but refuse to knee and bow for the Emperor because they bow only for God, and the crowd are all poking their nose down into a dog shit to show their obedience for the Emperor (the State).
Clearly the crowd cannot take this situation. We should all be slaves…..LOL.
Well, sometimes freedom is the freedom of the majority to be free of aggressive alien minorities.
Would jews define it to be freedom to be forced to interact and accept nazists? For jews then it would be freedom for nazism to be banned and they would feel unfree if they were forced to tolerate nazists.
I was brought up as a Roman Catholic. I resigned at the age of 15, mainly because the priest wanted to know rather too much about “my sins”. My family were not impressed, but in the end I ended up marrying a girl who was also brought up as a Roman Catholic and who also resigned at the age of 15 for similar reasons – though I didn’t meet her until about 10 years later. I think the morality as taught by the Catholic Church – and probably most religions is good. We all need moral codes – and the basic values of Christianity provide a good basic grounding as to how we should all behave.
I know very little about Jehovar’s Witnesses – except about 15 years ago – several of my friends had been recruited by them. Some of them too escaped from the Cult – because it is a Cult – but the costs and threats from escaping from the Jehovars Witnesses cult were very much higher, than escaping from the Roman Catholic Religion
Whilst my older brothers and sisters and my mum and dad did not approve of me not going to church any more, I was not completely ostracized from my family and friends. Sure they told me I was going to hell, unless i came back to the Catholic Church – but they did not apply the same techniques that the Jehovar’s Witnesses do…
But none of these religions are as evil as the current crap it seems the senior politicians in the USA and the UK seem to believe and want to inflict on the rest of us.
They make Atheists seem like Saints.
I try to explain to them – God is playing a trick – all you religious lunatics are going to hell – whilst The Atheists who live good and moral lives are going to heaven.
Tony
Does that make sense to you?
To me it makes no sense whatsoever.
Pardon me for a rare disagreement, esteemed Saker, but it makes perfect sense to me because I regard them from experience, and not as an abstraction — a category of people, probably not much different from people in other categories.
First and foremost, if the JW are really guilty of damaging personalities or health of people, or if they systematically infringe on human rightw – then take them to court for these crimes and punish them.
IMHO, you cannot eradicate a profound sickness which roots in the very soul by a piecemeal approach.
What is different about this cult is that, unlike the pizza gate one, it disguises itself as a religion. I have known these people — had lengthy discussions with them — and dealt (as a counselor in the juvenile justice system) with the tragic damage they do to young people.
It is like discussing cinnamon. Once you taste it, you know. Until then, there is only words that fall short of conveying the reality of it.
Hooray for RF !
Perhaps it was just a message sent to all “maidan groups” religious or not. We don’t how much there JW were actually JW. Were they much more CIA, Ukrainian etc. masking operations with having JW as a “front man” or what? In my country CIA tried in 1960’s infiltrate to some religious groups at the same time when they did same tricks to labor unions and some opposition politicians. It is well known fact that CIA sent money to Scandinavian and German social democrats especially operating in labor unions.
Disagree about ban in the jw sect. Use of religious orgs as cover is one of the main weapons the zionazis use to first infiltrate, then subvert countries. Best to intercept and neutralize these aggressions before they are able to take root and con many to join. If one hesitates, the problem can become too entrenched and much more destructive.
Just as a historic example, in the US Civil War (War between the states) , Yankee Unitarians used the cover of religion to push Kansas into the “Free State” category, ensuring a central government favorable to Yankee interests. The moral high ground, opposing slavery, incidentally was a strategic move. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beecher_Bible_and_Rifle_Church
And then there’s the tension between legality and legitimacy. Over the weekend, I’ll be reading Agamben’s The Mystery of Evil.
In residential areas in the US, JW are unsolicited, go from door to door and are an over the top annoyance. It is not merely the nonsensical, extremist refusal of transfusions but also the annoyance of incessant evangelizing. If Russia can eliminate JW on their territory, in accordance with their law, that is fine with me.
Mike in Houston:
If Russia can eliminate JW on their territory, in…
This thread contains many comments that are similar to yours. My decision to reply to your comment is entirely random. The choice of words shows that the Zeitgeist of the German Nazi Period never really ended – neither in Germany, nor in the US. If today a new leader – you’re free to call him Führer – appeared on the political stage, many people would follow him again, like they had done in the 1930’s.
For me JW is just another Made in America bullshit. Just like Mormons. Only exception – they are worst of all (excluding perhaps neocons/neolibs warmongers and their Jewish zealot allies). It looks like America has special ability to trivialize and degrade religion and make it look like another show business. There has been for several decades lots of examples showing that uncontrolled uneducated religion behavior tend to make America as a promised land for millions of different mad religious etc cults with certain evidence having connection with business action (“give me your money and we secure you to be saved”). Even when choosing his “church” American is prioritising “comfort” or “satisfaction”. There is also another very special American phenomena: ” to be stupid and be proud of it”. No other nations have that nature. That’s why they have no Trump as president.
“There is also another very special American phenomena: ‘to be stupid and be proud of it’. No other nations have that nature.”
Beg to differ: The Ukraine, Poland, The Brown And Little Tiny Insect CountrieS spring to mind immediately.
But the fact that it is a Pindo national trait is indisputable — hats off!
Here’s the truth, JW are not Russian, nor are they American or japanese or Brazilian or British or whatever…they do not see themselves are part of this current system of things (in the world but no part of the world). That’s why they always says, “our brothers in Russia ” or “our brothers in Japan “, “our brothers in Germany ” etc…they never identify themselves as Russian Jehovah’s witnesses or American JWs etc…
Russia doesn’t know what the JWs are, the only thing they do know is JWs are not Russian. And guess what, America knows the same thing, JWs are not American.
By definition a JW is a citizen of the kingdom of God and no other, of this there is no compromise.
May Jehovah bless my brothers in Russia
So, when JWs, and you, say: “May Jehovah bless my brothers in Russia” you mean those males, in Russia and elsewhere, of the 144,000 who shall be saved. The rest of the 6 billion on the planet are therefore, to you, as cattle or what the Jews would call Goyim, or German, Ukrainian and Jewish Nazis would call ‘untermensch’ (less than human at any rate). Is this correct?
And what do you think of the fact that, clearly, Jehovah’s witnesses are very much “in the world”. Enough to go to court to maintain what they see as their right to proselytize and sell the 144,000 thousand tickets to heaven which they (insanely enough) claim to have been informed about by the invisible deity of salvation-for-sale.
To the naked, ‘untrained’ eye, JWs look more like another variant of Christ’s loathed ‘Jews’ or Christ’s description of such as “Scribes, Hypocrites and Pharisees. JWs seeem very much a ‘part of this world’ and not one of its nicer parts.
JW refer everything to the bible.
The bible and thus JW says “God save whomever he want”, thus its an individual relation between you and God whether he thinks you fit.
Many people misunderstand completely religion due to lack of knowledge or non-believing.
They must consider that US and UK governments are only created and based on the bible and Gods laws:
God created man to be free with free access to everything.
Sin came into paradise and God needed Authorities to bring people violating Gods laws into prison or punish them or teach them.
Thus governments were needed for civil and criminal laws and churches for spiritual laws.
All legal departments, Justice, governments, churches are founded on these principles, whether you know it or not, or you believe or not.
The government can legally claim their authority toward God and itself, if you show you are not able to follow Gods laws or you willingly accept they are your nanny.
If you claim your right to be a free man who are able to follow Gods laws, your government must release you from their imposed authority if they want to be in compliance with their own legal foundation, as they now do not have any legal right to be your nanny.
That is why government do everything to keep you in darkness, to avoid being in non-compliance and become redundant.
JW is one of the groups claiming this right to be a free man able to follow Gods laws, but personally free from the nanny state but accepting its legal foundation.
Maybe moslems have a better understanding of this pre-text to religion and state.
There are two paths of salvation, a heavenly salvation and an earthly salvation. The heavenly path consists of 144000 and the earthly consists of a great crowd. Anyone can choose salvation or not, this is freewill. If a man chooses to disobey God he has chosen death and will die. It’s the same choice God gave to Adam.
The scriptures are clear, God chooses who goes to heaven and not we ourselves. Imagine your house, can just anyone come into your house without meeting a certain standard? Or do you allow them to come and go as they please?
This whole idea of goyim is confusion promoted by the wicked one. Anyone can choose to serve God but according to His standard. If you don’t like or disagree with the standard that’s fine, take the matter up with God. The only thing JWs have been asked to do is go preach, which is considered fair opportunity. If you reject the message so be it, your life is in your own hand. I didn’t make the standard, I just adhere to it…
@JWs look more like another variant of Christ’s loathed ‘Jews’
Exactly, JW is an abbreviation of JEW.
Azi Americans who, in spite of a clearly visible lack of education in foreign languages, go spouting about how Germans would call others “Untermensch” should at least be aware that the word entered the German language via translation from English.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothrop_Stoddard
The Revolt Against Civilization. The Menace of the Under Man (1922)
=> Der Kulturumsturz. Die Drohung des Untermenschen (1925)
I think it is not an exaggeration to say that the German word is used more by English speakers than by German speakers. At least, it seems to be much more popular in English speaking countries – undoubtedly a result of Azi propaganda brainwashing.
Lumi:
Excellent comment. Danke for providing me with this particular piece of information.
Bill Cooper had good info on Jehovah’s Witnesses and their links to Freemasonry & the Rothschilds. Like the Mormons the Jehovah’s Witnesses are tools like the NGOs. Look it up, interesting stuff at the very least.
Correction:
It was Fritz Springmeier’s work that gave the info of Jehovah’s Witnesses and their links to Freemasonry & the Rothschilds (research Charles Taze Russell). It was Bill Cooper’s “Mystery Babylon” series that introduced Springmeier’s work to me (which is also worth perusing if you get the time). I don’t believe everything they say, of course, but much of their information seems to tie many things together, plausibly.
I checked both Cooper and Fritz, Catkins. Cooper seems to be an ok guy.
But there is nothing! This is ridiculous.
The only thing you and the crowd can come up with is a 120 years old pyramid stone close to Russell´s grave……………ha ha ha ha.
The rest from Fritz Springmeyer is pure hot air accusations without any evidence nor documentation at all.
What is it you guys are so afraid of………..yourselves?
The JWs have a wonderful online Bible and other material professionally presented as one of the great sources for their faith and evangelical work.
https://www.jw.org/en/
I use the bible because it is fast to search as a reference.
And the animations and artwork of their booklets, brochures and other material is first rate production.
Then look at the upper right hand “language” link at be astounded at hundreds of languages and many sign language versions of their website and material.
This website cost tens of millions of dollars of production and is a creative use of the Internet.
I reject their religion but stand in admiration of their digital outreach and resources.
The one good thing about them is they are apolitical. Not so, Mormons.
Even in the West they are a very fringe sect. So a question might be asked (should be asked) where does the money come from for their spreading themselves Worldwide. And for the tools in use to spread their propaganda. Such as the tens of millions you mentioned. I would think it naive of nations not to “connect the dots” all the way back to foreign subversion entities. Attempting to use them as parasites to destroy the countries that are foolish enough to act as their hosts.
Mormon theology is that the US government is favored with God’s grace, and that no other government is. When this religion was formed, it had bad relations with the government and their neighbors, but there was a 180 degree reversal about 50 years later. Camp Douglas (1862), later renamed Fort Douglas (1878), overlooking Salt Lake City, is the only fort where the cannons were pointed at the city it’s supposed to protect. Later, after the court battles over polygamy, the Mormon hierarchy chose to embrace Washington and bent its theology accordingly. The Mormon religion is “think as sin” with Israel and owns a very large center in Palestine. Mormons and Zionist “Jews” have the same ideology: Drive out and kill off all the natives, justify the ethnocide with crackpot theology, and write that God gave the land to the invaders.
Mormons deserve to have the door slammed on them. The church aggressively sends out young people on two year “missions”. These missionaries knock on my door almost every year. They have been trained to be evasive and insincere. I used to ask them if they knew about the book, “No Man Knows My History”, (1945), by Fawn Brodie an academic historian. After many years and twice as many missionaries (since they always travel in pairs), I finally realized these missionaries are trained to deflect questions about this cult-shattering book, and that these missionaries have zero sincerity. They are arrogant twerps seeking to practice their religious BS on strangers because that helps them later in life to over-awe other Mormons.
The church suppressed the Brodie book. It bought the publishing company and thus the copyright.
I was told the Mormon church managed to retrieve all but about 150 copies. In the 1960’s, I saw a thick photocopy of the book. It was being circulating in Soviet-era samizdat style. My friend had the photocopy for exactly one month and then she had to send it on to the next person on the list.
Now the book is free on the web: https://archive.org/details/NoManKnowsMyHistory
Wikipedia censors out the fact of the suppression of this book by the Mormon church. WIkipedia also doesn’t mention the 1948 break-in at the courthouse in upper New York state, in which records of civil and criminal court proceedings were stolen, which were sources for the Brodie book.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fawn_M._Brodie
Ordinary Mormons are barely okay, and not always. Bruce Jessen, a Ph.D. psychologist, designed torture techniques for the CIA for many years. In 2012, when he was appointed Bishop to the Mormon church in Spokane, Washington, 200 ordinary Mormons unanimously voted for him, even after they knew about his “enhanced interrogation techniques”.
So Mormons can be extremely bad news and the Russian government should outright ban Mormons. As should all other governments.
How can you blame a simple heart from beating true? It is my prayer that the Russian heart continues so.
Meanwhile the Montenegrin Parliament has approved NATO membership with a vote of 46-0.
Another example of what happens when you allow the free entry of foreign NGO’s into your country.Give them a few years of propaganda,unlimited funds for subversion and you have a Montenegro and Ukraine. Those groups are a cancer in the World today. And its much harder to stop cancer after it spreads (if it can be stopped), than if you catch in its early stages and remove it.For a free nation to survival they must eliminate those foreign cancers from their society.
Re ““We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed””
The idea of a core principle, as cited, sure is great. But how should one really interpret such a “core principle” when it had when written and since then very little to do with the realit?
This “core value” was predicated on excluding all of the human slaves in the new nation. In fact, I have just learned that one driver of the American Revolution was the fact that the institution of slavery was already on the ropes in the mother country. The American Patriots wanted to preserve the peculiar institution of salve labor on which their economy rested. So, that statement above sounds good but is really qluestionable as a functional “core value.”
Not that different from so many of the “core values” in Judaism.
Valid only for Jews. Actually only for the Jews I agree with.
Katherine
one driver of the American Revolution was the fact that the institution of slavery was already on the ropes in the mother country. The American Patriots wanted to preserve the peculiar institution of salve labor on which their economy rested.
This is an ignorant, malicious lie.
The slave trade was the cash cow of the City of London, to which virtually every southern American of substance was indebted. They called the tune, and people like Lee, Jefferson, Washington et al. danced to it because refusal would mean foreclosure and bankruptcy.
Slavery was abolished in England, as I remember, in 1824. 48 years is a long time to be “on the ropes.”
You are aware, of course, that quite a number of free Blacks were slave owners themselves. And that African slaves were only the final phase of White slavery (“indentured servitude”) Right ? See Hoffman, https://www.amazon.com/They-Were-White-Slaves-Enslavement/product-reviews/0929903056
It hurts me to see how naive you are about JW. There is nothing you should be concerned more than that organisation and its connection to the insane west intentions regarding Russia
I am probably one of the few people in the West that was truly happy to see Russia ban the “Jehovah’s Witnesses.” US missionary sects (like Mormons, “Jehovah’s Witnesses”, Adventists, Pentecostals, and various Zionist Evangelicals) travel all over the world targeting mostly poor countries for “conversion.” Russia, in the 1990s, was clearly targeted by these groups. The radical missionaries from the US do not care in the slightest about the traditional religions that exist in Russia or anywhere else. To the missionaries, all other believers are heretics/infidels to be converted to their pushy sects. As an ex-Adventist, I was very excited to see Russia suspend the legal activities of one these sectarian cult groups. I’d love to see Russia kick the rest out as well.
Saker, I agree with those two first paragraphs – the JW are like that – they are extemely populous on the Gulf Ilsands in BC, which is where I have been most of my adult life – and I met a girl that was born into the JW’s and she wanted to date a boy not in the JW’s and she was disowned by her parents…and she was distraught – I knew her – it was horrible.
And they prey on single women – of which I was one – they were coming around as a ‘force’ to my house – I didn’t know that that is how they operate – I think they’ve toned it down a bit now, as on Saltspring they have a church but they don’t prey on me like when I lived on Quadra Island.
Also Saker, it seems to me that there is some confusion about Christian Science – this is definitely Masons – and its definitely anti- medical – but the JW’s too ?
I don’t think its a blunder – they are definitely operating on a hidden adenda with single women.
ideology Saker is what you don’t like – but believe me – the JW’s have a hidden ideology – that requires that they increase their numbers.
No religious congregation can survive for long if it has no truths. JW must have at least one truth. This is a spiritual law. Their Church grows.
This new Russian law will only make them spiritually stronger. They will meet at home if necessary. This will give the Church many more knowledgeable preachers. Remember the Russian Catakomb Church. When Christianity was finally allowed in China centuries ago millions of hidden believers also appeared.
I have met some witnesses and liked them. Look at Aids and understand why they were wise to ban blood transfusions. How many died before we understood what Aids was?
One good thing with the witnesses is that they get things done. They can build a new Church within days. They also obey the Lord and teach others.
Their Bible version perhaps deserves a question mark. Some of their prophecies were partly wrong. The world didn’t end in 1914, but Europe did to some extent and that was not good for Christianity.
Russians are suspicious of westerners. With good cause, but this law is a disaster. They see a “spion” behind every bush where there are none. The law makes me worry about the future of Russia.
@JW must have at least one truth… Their Church grows.
Cancer grows too.
“They see a ‘spion’ behind every bush where there are none. The law makes me worry about the future of Russia.”
The ban on JW comes nowhere close to Western levels of coercion and paranoia. To paraphrase:
They see a ‘trrrrrst’ in every human being where there are none. The laws passed testify to all-out moral depravity..
Russia shut down Amoeba International’s office in Moscow last fall — not a day too soon. JW sent packing by now. Russia is doing the right thing.
The word “spion” is understood in both Russian and Swedish, but pronounced in different ways. It means spy. I have lost count of the words I only find in Russian and Swedish. Why do we say kirurg, torg, Krim, matros and more? There are many more and you are a man of languages. Swedish you do understand.
Do not be oneeyed. It is a bad idea to go after a congregation. If Heaven wants it to survive, it will. The Russian Court made a mistake.
Spion is the dutch word for spy too you should broaden your research ;-)
Thanks. Is the word of Low German origin? It is possible Germany has given us some common words. I don’t speak Dutch, but I made an attempt to understand Frisian several years ago.
You also say dagblad (daily paper), don’t you? What is the origin of the word?
I marvel at the language abilities of the Dutch. I asked a Dutch truck driver what language he preferred, English or German. He said both were okay. A truck driver. In France I met Dutch people who spoke perfect French.
“/…/ PR disasters made worse by a fundamental lack of ability to explain to the general public, especially in the West, the real nature and intention of the legal measures adopted”
Forget about the West — however much one so wishes, Satan/Soros can’t and won’t mend his ways, ever. Ditto his cohorts of bought and paid for Russophobes a.k.a. The International Community and, lastly, the Western Zio-trash in toto. The “fundamental lack of ability” to “explain” Russia’s priorities to her mortal enemies is no accident — it’s a deliberately chosen stance on the part of the latter, period.
It’s highly instructive, by the way, to see Soros in action in other places than Russia. Last night, there was a news flash coming out of Soros’s native Hungary with the usual rent-a-mob in action. I wasn’t listening that attentively, but the rabble were carrying anti-Russian signs (in English, of course) linking Viktor Orban’s legal measures against George Soros’s bogus “University” to Vladimir Putin! Needless to say, the fact that Orban is very popular and the mobsters a tiny minority funded from abroad didn’t perturb the alternate reality of Liberalism. Make that another “Russian PR disaster”, ha!
Russia in her 1000 plus year history has always faced enemies intent on her destruction. And no more so than today. Where she faces the greatest threat to her existence since the days of the Mongols.Even Napoleon and Hitler in their eras did not have the power that the US empire has today against Russia.The only true defeat Russia (Rus) faced was the Mongol Invasion. And that was because of the Russian tendency to disunity. The Rus-sian principalities were divided and could not be united enough to withstand the Mongol Horde’s onslaught. It took centuries for the Russian peoples to be reunited.And when united they have never been fully defeated.In building that unity the Russian state was the engine that drove it.
Today Russia’s enemies know they can not defeat a united Russia.Which explains their constant efforts to spread disunity among Rus-sia’s peoples.They used subversion in Ukraine to turn Rus people against Rus people. Infecting enough home grown traitors with their virus to destroy the brotherhood of the Rus peoples there.They work on Belarus to do the same,without notable success (so far),but keep trying.They tried that throughout the 1990’s in Russia herself.And infiltrated elements into Russia who build another group of traitors into a 5th column.Had Putin not come along they might have destroyed Russia’s Independence by now.But they have no intention of giving up trying.
As Scott wrote earlier about the JW movement. Here are some of their beliefs (paraphrased by me).
Members of this sect refuse serving in the military,
Refuse celebrating a country’s holiday, public and religious,don’t agree with the country’s state symbols.
They are being brainwashed against obeying the government, authorities and law enforcement when and if their leaders would tell them.
They reject the authority of the laws of the country and the constitutional authorities.
They also actively seek to convert Muslims, and make their members move to the Muslim populated regions.Which in itself causes trouble between the ethnic communities in Russia.
Russia’s existence is based on the unity of her peoples. She has a much smaller population than the US. So the need for universal service in her armed forces is necessary (and always has been) for her survival. Unity allows Russia to survive. Disunity leads to her destruction.Russia as a society can not allow foreign backed sects to sow disunity inside the country. The West knows the more disunity they can create inside Russia the easier it will be to destroy her. Which is why they push groups like that one and others. Russia doesn’t have the liberty to allow the free spread of disunity. And certainly not in a time like today.Already the media is more free in Russia than in most parts of the World. And freedom in Russia (I’d say from what I see from Russian friends) compares with personal freedom in most Western countries for the common citizens.But there are just some things too dangerous in their end results to permit,and this is one of them.
This is a very accurate assessement. The JW came to Russia along with many other western sects in the late 80s to prey on the general confusion and godlessness. A neighbor of mine was a JW back in 1991, used to come to my home to talk. He said the JW were fearing an imminent start of a worldwide persecution against them. This was in 1991! But they had it good then, and they’ve had it great in Russia since. I find this “preemptive fear of persectution” detestable. It’s a kind of a preemptive strike in a religious sect kind of way. And from my experience, it’s also a “jewish thing” – to await the hollow-cost every minute. You wait for it like that, you start asking for it,craving it, doing more and more outrageous things to deserve it (look at israel!). Anyway, enough is enough. Jehovah’s Witnesses – out!
Maybe it’s just tit-for-tat inspired by witchhunt against all these “Russian agents” on American side. Some kind of “Look, we can also shut down any organisation under any nonsensical pretext, calling it American agent “…
Saker,
Thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts on this subject. I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and have been reading your website regularly since the beginning of the military operations of the RF in Syria. I really appreciate your writing and the other perspectives you give a voice here on your website.
I have also, like many Witnesses around the world, been following the situation of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Russian Federation with some concern over the last couple of years. As you stated, the situation today is indeed different, in so many ways, for Jehovah’s Witnesses and Russia as well, from what it was in 1991.
There seems to be some consensus (well maybe almost) among readers here that Jehovah’s Witnesses are part of the many destabilizing forces (CIA – Soros – etc) currently arrayed against nations that oppose the actions of NATO and the Anglo-American world power. I don’t wish to waste people’s time trying to prove a negative – I would simply state that there is one thing about Jehovah’s Witnesses that makes such a thing impossible.
The thing that makes this impossible is our posture of Christian neutrality and our understanding of what this concept -Christian neutrality – really means. Jesus told Pontius Pilate that his Kingdom was “no part of this world” (Jn 18:36). He was not going to fight Rome or the Jewish religious leaders in order to preserve his freedom. Jehovah’s Witnesses are not in any way disrespectful or defiant of governmental authority. They respect every governments right to collect taxes (as did Jesus)…
“Pay back Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.”—Mark 12:13-17.
…and are under obligation to obey other governmental laws and regulations (as Christians are instructed by the Apostle Paul)…
“ Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. 3 For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath* against the one practicing what is bad.” Romans 13:1-4
Interestingly Jesus answer to the people who questioned him about paying taxes to Rome in the Gospel of Mark did not imply that human governments can claim absolute authority over their subjects. Jesus taught that God grants only limited authority to these governments. Hence this profound statement: “Pay back Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” With this instruction from our Lord Jesus in mind – Jehovah’s Witnesses rightly refuse obedience to any order that ignores the commandments of God.
But, and here is the point I think really needs to be made, that same determination to pay to God what belongs only to him – complete obedience – precludes one of Jehovah’s Witnesses working to destabilize the government or overthrow existing authority.
Why is it that the SS guards trusted only the Jehovah’s Witnesses with a razor to shave them in Nazi concentration camps? Why is it that Solzhenitsyn and his companions knew that the JWs among them would be “useless” in supporting the uprising at Kengir?
The reason is that in these situations everyone understood that the Witnesses had been imprisoned because of their refusal to disobey God and put the command of a government or leader above His own. They were not imprisoned or persecuted because they had anything against the government to which they had been happily paying taxes and supporting in everything but that which would overstep the commandmentss of God. As the apostles told the Sanhedrin when asked why they had violated the order to stop preaching about Jesus – “We must obey God as Ruler rather than men” Acts 5:27-29
Christian neutrality explains why a Witness languishing in a Nazi concentration camp could be freed by Soviet troops at the end of the Second World War only to find herself on a train to Siberia a few short years later – exiled by the same Soviet government that freed her from the Nazis. It explains why on the other side of the Atlantic, Witnesses were banned and imprisoned in Quebec while being beaten and lynched in some parts of the United States. It is the reason many Witness men I knew growing up in Pennsylvania in the 1970’s ended up in prison during the Vietnam War. Hundreds of young Witness youth are currently serving prison terms in South Korea for refusing military service while others have died in captivity in Eritrea in recent years. In each of the foregoing, the geo-political situation of the countries in question has been very different, but the reaction to Jehovah’s Witnesses neutral stand has, sadly, been one of misunderstanding and harsh reponses
Jesus told his followers that they would face persecution – and that we should pray for those persecuting us. As one of Jehovah’s Witnesses living in the United States I bear no ill will toward the the government of the Russian Federation – why would a Russian Witness feel differently about his homeland? He/she only wishes the freedom to follow Jesus’ example as outlined in Scripture.
Thanks for your work. Happy to hear your thoughts.
P.D.
Did you see this?
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/04/28/why-iran-strategic-autonomy-us-matters.html
M.K. Bhadrakumar – always insightful.
Oh, and briefly on the original subject – where did you find that picture that appears with your post? It looks like some kind of Evangelical revival. Or maybe a Tony Robbins event? But it is definitely not an assembly of Jehovah’s Witnesses. That would look more like a giant classroom or seminar and people would be more formally dressed. More like this:
https://tv.jw.org/#ru/mediaitems/LatestVideos/docid-502017809_1_VIDEO
Having read this mini lecture I am left with a bad taste in my mouth. Somehow it seems that in the name of good you do the exact opposite.
This is all part of the big deception, whether you people are aware of it or not.
2 Corinthians 11:14 …’And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.’
RR:
What causes you to have a bad taste in your mouth? I don’t see anything wrong with the comment of Glassboard.
I’m far more concerned with several of the US TV preachers. They seem to be in on the game for the love of money. They’re babbling something about salvation, begging for money and doing little to nothing to help those in need (Matthew 7:15). There are so many homeless people (especially in the US), but there’s hardly any real attempt in solving this problem. If they were really concerned about others, they would help actively. Many of those preachers are on youtube as well. You should check their youtube channels and read the comment section – it’s a gathering point of those who’re spewing pure hatred.
In my opinion JW is a totalitarian sect and a commercial cult. It has nothing to do with Christianity, but it hides behind the Bible, which is what makes it dangerous. A wolf in sheep’s clothing.
That is why when I read their seemingly innocent rhetoric, quoting the Bible (yet often completely misinterpreting and misrepresenting it), I want to shake my head and come out of the somnambulistic state.
RR:
I wouldn’t go as far as calling them a sect. In my opinion they’re one of many branches of Christian Institutions.
Your observation regarding their totalitarian structures seems to be correct. It correlates with reports that I’ve read about members who tried to get out and faced total isolation – from family and friends – as a result.
Anyone disallowing their child to receive life saving blood transfusion is a brainwashed extremist.
For me this is enough reason to ban this sect. Extremism should not have a place in Russia.
Are you kidding, Saker? Good riddance to the JW! This is a vmesto-Christian church for sure, an AngloZio tool for sure, and a CIA tool to boot, these Jehova’s witnesses.
I can only speak from personal experience. I knew a JW quite well and at no time was I coerced into joining or fed any kind of literature at all. As far as I know, they just try to spread the word of god as they see fit. Is this not what Jesus asked?
The problem is drawing the line between cult and religion. How do you? Is there a minimum membership of a cult before it can be considered mainstream?
On a separate note, I would like to congratulate the Saker. Too many people never post articles on religion as it considered such an inflammatory subject. However, the Saker has never made any attempt to disguise his own beliefs and he has always written with the utmost respect regarding other faiths. I also enjoy the fact that his posts reflect not only the military or geo political situation, but the fact that he writes about many aspect of Russian culture. Thank you Saker.
My personal experience is different. I’ve had them come by my home dozens of times in my life. And always leave literature that they carry with them. I don’t have a big problem with them coming by the house. True it is a irritation. By I’ve always been polite and accepted their literature and looked it over. I respect people with deep felt beliefs even if I don’t share them. I don’t believe its the common JW believer that is the danger. It is unscrupulous foreign handlers preying on those peoples faith to spread anti-state subversion. And that is why groups like that are a danger for Russia.
I absolutely agree with you, uncle Bob. In Russia, if the courts have decided they are dangerous, they must have had sufficient evidence to pass such decision. The West uses everything they can to infiltrate and weaken Russia.
The fundamental problem with such cults and sects is aptly described by father Seraphim Rose in his book “Orthodoxy and the religion of the future”. The book was written in 1975, but today it is more relevant than ever.
The various cults and sects are exposed as the collective religion of the future, ultimately worshiping the Antichrist, as predicted by the holy scriptures.
I will not ruin the book by giving everything away, but please read it if you are interested in the subject.
I don’t know, Saker, does Russia have the right to ban the Antichrist worshipers (even if they are unaware of their ultimate master) in her own country?
Distinguish between religion, sect and cult.
“The cult test is as follows. If any condition is met, it’s a cult.
1. Denial of exit.
2. Aggression toward outsider speech.
3. Refusal to commit to peace with outsiders.”
https://civgene.matthewnewhall.com/archives/1410
How many people half the stature of Seraphim Rose would we have nowadays?
I don’t know what they’re up to in Russia, but from what I can see here in Germany, they tend to seek out mentally instable people and try to draw them in with their unreal “happy harmony world” propaganda. Because mentally stable people won’t listen to them, they just say “no thanks” and that’s exactly how far they get. They may look friendly and kind-hearted, yes, but also somewhat trist and sad, and I do find their activity a bit suspicious, so I tend to agree with what Uncle Bob and Scott wrote. Because frankly, Russia has enough problems to deal with.
Here in Italy I had a teenage girl missing her lesson with me because she had been accosted by the JW by her front door. Being polite, she couldn’t shut the door in their face, but no amount of explaining that she would be late for an appointment was having any effect. She was so distraught later, explaining her missed lesson, she started crying.
Many comments on this and I can only add
1. This is not a ban that happened overnight it’s a long running case in relation to this organisation and their activities – I stress their activities
2. Much information has been gathered about how this organisation operates in Russia – this is what the court case focused on.
3. I was not in court to hear it so can’t comment on the actual evidence presented
4. Not all “religions” are what they seem and can be fronts for various extremist activities.
5. Courts look at evidence and are largely emotion free – their job is to apply the law of the country
+100
Completely agree with you. If the courts had decided this, they must have had sufficient evidence.
As a consequence, the State, constituted as it is, is clearly bound to act up to the manifold and weighty duties linking it to God, by the public profession of religion. Nature and reason, which command every individual devoutly to worship God in holiness, because we belong to Him and must return to Him, since from Him we came, bind also the civil community by a like law. For, men living together in society are under the power of God no less than individuals are, and society, no less than individuals, owes gratitude to God who gave it being and maintains it and whose ever-bounteous goodness enriches it with countless blessings. Since, then, no one is allowed to be remiss in the service due to God, and since the chief duty of all men is to cling to religion in both its reaching and practice-not such religion as they may have a preference for, but the religion which God enjoins, and which certain and most clear marks show to be the only one true religion -it is a public crime to act as though there were no God. So, too, is it a sin for the State not to have care for religion as a something beyond its scope, or as of no practical benefit; or out of many forms of religion to adopt that one which chimes in with the fancy; for we are bound absolutely to worship God in that way which He has shown to be His will. All who rule, therefore, would hold in honour the holy name of God, and one of their chief duties must be to favour religion, to protect it, to shield it under the credit and sanction of the laws, and neither to organize nor enact any measure that may compromise its safety. This is the bounden duty of rulers to the people over whom they rule.
Good for Putin as his decision can be a step in the right direction because all states have th duty to worship God as He desires He be worshipped. For ABS this is an interesting situation as Putin is far closer to what Pope Leo XII clued for than the modern Popes are.
Can anyone imagine a Pope doing what Putin has done?
No, because freedom of religion, that intellectual infection that has ruined the brains of most men.
Here is Pope Leo XIII and one can only hope Russia continues its first tentative move towards right reason and action:
For one and all are we destined by our birth and adoption to enjoy, when this frail and fleeting life is ended, a supreme and final good in heaven, and to the attainment of this every endeavour should be directed. Since, then, upon this depends the full and perfect happiness of mankind, the securing of this end should be of all imaginable interests the most urgent. Hence, civil society, established for the common welfare, should not only safeguard the well-being of the community, but have also at heart the interests of its individual members, in such mode as not in any way to hinder, but in every manner to render as easy as may be, the possession of that highest and unchangeable good for which all should seek. Wherefore, for this purpose, care must especially be taken to preserve unharmed and unimpeded the religion whereof the practice is the link connecting man with God.
He is risen, indeed!! And Jesus rose as KING and, as such, no nation can legislate in opposition to His Commandments for if they do, it is ineluctable He will withdraw His grace from them and they flounder, flail, and fail – just like the evil Empire America is.
It is reaping the whirlwind attending religious liberty.
Dear Saker,
Thanks for your giving us your opinion on the above. As a Nigerian supporter of Russia on global issues I am dismayed by this banning of Jehovah Witnesses (JW) which will only play into the hands of the Western media propagandists.
For avoidance of doubt, I am not JW myself (I am Catholic or “Papist” as you will like to call it), but I do know a thing or two about JW as my uncle is one their leaders back home. I accept that they do operate like a cult and they do split families because of them there is a level of estrangement between my side of the family (who aren’t JW believers) and my uncle’s side of family (who are JW believers).
There is a lot to be criticized about JW especially about their refusal of life-saving blood transfusion for children, but the idea that they serve pro-Soros globalists and CIA is just paranoid rubbish. JW simply do not recognize themselves as citizens of any country per se and have loyalty none.
In JW opinion, the origins of their members in any country–Russia, United States, UK, Nigeria–is merely an accident of birth which should not distract these members from focussing on “serving the Kingdom of God”. And “serving the Kingdom of God” to them includes (1) never being part of any patriotic celebrations; (2) flag-waving; (3) never going to war to die for any country including the one they were born in which explains why JW members always land in prisons in many country where it is compulsory for all to be militarily drafted (e.g. South Korea, USSR and USA during Vietnam War)
Given their strict anti-patriotic, anti-nationalist beliefs, I can see why proudly Nationalist Russia will be hostile and suspicious to Jehovah Witnesses who are alien to the religious history of Russia. After all, JW was born in 1870s United States (although JW does not see itself as being “American”). What Russia has to understand is that JW as abhorrent as some of their beliefs might be, it is a huge PR disaster to ban them outright as this will only be used to demonize the country further as “human right violator”.
Russia is at war. The least of her worries now are PR related. Its a fight for survival. No matter what Russia does the West would spin it in a negative light.
It is just a matter of time before they trot out the old canards: Babies on bayonets and babies thrown from incubators. They only have to shut down all real news media first.
RR:
In some comment above you’ve mentioned that you’re Italian. Since Italy and Germany share some common history it might be interesting for you to read a quote of one of my fellow countrymen:
…the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.
You’re entirely correct in your assumption that pacifism is bad. If everyone would become pacifist, then who would do all the fighting? It’s essential to agitate against others, otherwise we might end up living peacefully together.
Kind regards
P.S.: Ummm, … whilst talking about war. Do Italians like the economic war that’s being waged by Germany? Each year the usual suspects amongst MSM celebrate the huge trade surplus, whilst ignoring domestic suppression of wages and ignoring that other countries are forced into deficit.
addition:
I forget to mention the person that I’ve quoted in the comment above. It’s Hermann Göring.
Though I’m no Jehova witness (I’m an atheist, may be an agnostic) I’ve to remind the readers that JW was the only religious organization that resisted to the Nazis in Germany, not only like some individual Catholics and Protestants who resisted. Many of them were prisoned in concentration camps.
For years I have had regular contacts with them and I still watch them distributing their religious stuff but they don’t do it actively. They just stand in the street and wait till they are asked to give you a copy.
I fully agree with the Saker.
Otto Kern
37412 Herzberg-die Esperantostadt
Germany
Some questions and doubts, with no pretence I have an answer:
Who is it claims homosexuality is “normal”? It is, as an indisputable statistical fact, not normal. No-one I know of argues that it is, only that there is no good reason to discriminate against homosexuals, and therefore that they should have equal rights.
“Healthy or sick” is for each state to define? That this is dodgy should be obvious just in asserting it. Likewise that the state can define what is “natural”.
Each state defines its laws. What about a state that defines a law forbidding any questioning of its laws by anyone other than the lawmakers? Are we to say, Well, that reflects the traditional national spirituality and, in the context of that spirituality, the national determination of the public interest? Sounds like Plato’s Republic or a theocracy. Surely we all prefer to live in a society where a plurality of interests is recognised and an accommodation among them is arrived at by a process that allows a place for rational deliberation between those interests?
As an abstraction, a case can be made for nearly anything. (Why should cannibalism be abhorred ? After all, people are mammals, and mammals are food . . .).
As a reality in actual practice, contrast the experience of life in the Berlin of 1900 with that during the Weimar Republic. The first, whatever its objectionable features, was healthy and sound — viable. The second was diseased — not viable (unless cancer is just another life form).
The instinctual aspect of life must remain intact : this is social health in a nutshell. Those who want to paralyze simple human nature and use abstract ideas to re-make it into something more to their liking sooner or later provoke a corrective reaction which puts instinctual values back in the driver’s seat. As we have seen in Germany (1933) and twice in Russia — all within living memory.
History repeats itself.
The first time as tragedy.
After that, as farce.
— Karl Marx
What is transpiring inside the Russian Federation is a color revolution and the government has to take measures to preserve the nation. National security begins with internal stability and national cohesion. There is a Constitution and branches of government, and this decision is proceeding, wisely or unwisely, very legalistically. Scott’s detailed comment clearly lays out the history of the confrontation between central JW and Russian law.
Russia, too, must ascend to a true SuperPower nation. It must operate as the USA and China do. By clinging to Europe, insisting it is a European nation, has led to diminishment of its true status. At best, in the best of times, Russia is a step-child of Europe geopolitically. It may need to have very good relations with Europe and its eccentric formations, but it must do so as SuperPower, not as one among many.
Russia would be left to die if it did not have gas Europe needs. The way it was kicked out of G8 (now G7), and the way the US wants it kicked out of the UNSC, and some have called for it to be kicked out of G20, is what would happen if not for EU’s need for natural gas.
The cultural and historic “ties” between the ideal of Europe and Russia are frayed threads, worth little when it matters. Look at the reality and you see that Russia is demonized and vilified at every opportunity.
Russians need to grow into full self-realization that they are Eurasian, not European. Never were, never will be European. There is a wall of Nazism and godless Liberalism and a thousand years of dread between Russia and Europe.
Putin always keeps in his mind the reality, even when he appears to speak and act as one of the club, that Russia is unique and must remain separate from Europe and its twisted values.
Religions that are cults and cultish are crushed in China. They tell the rest of the world to butt out. China’s attitude about outsiders telling them what to do or how to do things socially was demonstrated clearly in the arbitration case brought by the Philippines. When the decision against China came down, China stiff-armed it and laughed. And what did the Philippines or big brother USA do about it? Nothing.
Russia has to behave as a SuperPower and stiff-arm outside interference in its internal affairs. Crush the NGOs and Cults and be done with the color revolution and destabilization.
Russia has nothing to be ashamed about. It honors four great religions and generally, socially, is very tolerant. Most of the “trouble” in Russian society is engineered by Russophobes and nation-state agencies intent on destroying the Russian Federation.
So what is the “G7”?
Answer: Westmächte + besiegte Achsenmächte (F/UK/US + defeated Axis Powers)
Yes, there’s Canada in the G7, but it behaves just as a transposition of F/UK/US, albeit a moderate one AFAICT.
Not sure what the G would stand for if not for Grotesque.
» The cultural and historic “ties” between the ideal of Europe and Russia are frayed threads, worth little when it matters. Look at the reality and you see that Russia is demonized and vilified at every opportunity.
Russians need to grow into full self-realization that they are Eurasian, not European. Never were, never will be European. There is a wall of Nazism and godless Liberalism and a thousand years of dread between Russia and Europe. «
I find this so wrong. It sounds like your horizon is really only the last 25 years of Azi PNAC madness. The peoples of Europe, including the Russians, will stay put where they are, and they need to get along and live peacefully with each other. You appear to be talking as an outsider striving to raise tension and enmity. The upshot is to harden the NATO Russia frontline – the wrong approach. You’re focussing on the destructive aspects and eclipsing the long history of constructive cultural and commercial exchange. Why???
The wars of the past must be an exhortation to live in peace with each other, not a bluepring for new enmity to come. When you so confidently state what Russia is and where her place is, I wonder whether you bothered to learn Russian?
Russia, holy country, be more confident, self-assured, self-conscious (what is the correct word?). The country of Dostojewski will always possess the truth and does not have fear or angst because of JW. The power of Dostojewski will make JW fall down on its knees and adore Russia´s spirit.
“Strength lies in Truth, not in force”. Alexander Nevsky just prior to beating the shit out of the invading Swedes, Finns, Livonian Knights and a couple of Norwegians. Some things never change.
It hadn’t occurred to me until they said it, but why would a citizen be beyond the state’s protection because they join a sect?
There’s a principle “voluntary assumption of risk” that protects participants in sports like boxing, and it is reasonable. Many jurisdictions object to adults spanking children but not each other. But we don’t let a killer off if he has a letter of permission from his victim.
Preemptive action by the law is always a problem. My ears perk at the very word “conspiracy” which gives me the picture of the state trying to catch people doing more than talking, and failing. I’m dubious about where the line has been drawn here. But I do think it’s a matter of where you draw the line, rather than an area that is none of the state’s business.
Why is the adoption of children by homosexuals equated with having sex with children?
Homosexuals are not allowed to adopt their own children if their spouse, the biological parent of the children, dies. This is absolutely nuts.
And a tragedy for the children.
If there is any reason to suppose that adopted children of homosexual parents are at special risk of sexual molestation, it has certainly been well and truly suppressed. I’ve never seen a word. I have seen such findings reported of adopted children of heterosexual couples. Also slavery and trafficking. But no suggestion that this was a subject for preventive banning of adoption.
I would like to add to that there is also practically no statistical evidence for abuse of power against children by rabbis, other than the act of circumcision itself. Evidence may well be repressed, and put ‘in-house’ just as the abuses within the Catholic Church were hidden… at first. Now they are fashionably splashed on the front page and therefore exaggerated. I did read once that the incidence of child abuse is the same in the CC as it is among the general population.
All these statistics are likely to be laced with biases and prejudice, in every direction and in the special interests of all parties conceivable.
Some time spent perusing the Uniform Crime Statistics compiled by the US Dept. of Justice would answer this question.
Contrary to the scare-tactic hysteria about “child molesters,” as a group they have a VERY low recidivation rate. What spoils this is that men who prey on boys are — as re-conviction statistics demonstrate — incurable.
Homosexual men have lusted after and “groomed” (current jargon) boys since time began. Review the history of classical Greece and current history in places like Afghanistan (Sodatic Zone countries).
Tasteless joke :
Q : How do they “separate the men from the boys” in _____ ? (whichever of these countries you like) (or don’t like).
A : With crow bars.
This is the reality underlying and dictating the “why” this is (or should be) forbidden.
“By now you must have heard it – Putin is “persecuting the Jeohvah’s Witnesses” in Russia. Alas, this one is true.”
This sounds misinformed to say the least. Russia has a well-functioning multi-departmented state which precludes your cartoonish characterization of the President. I suspect he has bigger fish to fry. Meanwhile, enjoy this to take the edge off:
JWs pay Bernard a visit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6TeDM-wlZ4
Thanks, Franz, for your link to a fresh, humorous voice in this fraught discussion. I note that Dylan Moran was declared “the greatest comedian, living or dead” by Le Monde in July 2007; which is nice to know because he reminds me of the great French surgeon and humorist, Rabelais – a healing scalpel which probes into human flesh and lays bare our frailties without malice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6TeDM-wlZ4
They’re ngos so throw them out.
It is legitimate to put a religion on trial. In 1240, Pope Gregory IX pressed 35 charges against Talmud. Louis IX, King of France held court for Trial of Talmud, otherwise known as Disputation of Paris. The Talmud was found guilty.
If a religion does not follow logos, then it is illegitimate. Logos is principle of divine reason and creative order, especially the moral order. The gospel of John codifies Logos as core tenant of Christianity.
Another possibility is that Russia could mimic Iran. Bahai and Zionists are considered to have links to outside control, and hence are banned. (Bahia threatens traditional Islam, especially in its treatment of Mohammed.)
In Iran, our Jewish friends are not involved in usury finance, nor do they hold levers of power in government. This most aggressive in-group in history has been thwarted, and Russia would do well to study the circumstances. Israeli Zionists ask Iranian Jews to leave Iran, even to the point of offering money. Yet, Iranian Jews remain in Iran, as they are happy there. The out-marry rate of Iranian Jews with Iranians is only .4%.
Jews in Iran have constitutional rights equal to other Iranians, but may not hold government jobs, or become army officers. Jews have freedom to follow their religion, but are not granted freedom to proselytize. Jews are allotted one representative in parliament.
This is the system which enabled the Byzantine Empire to survive for so long a time without coming apart at the seams : denying Judahists professions in law, finance and culture. With no opportunity to introduce distortions in these, stability resulted.
re. RF, in simpler terms, a barrel of apples that was determined to remain one would deny inclusion to rotten ones, as a healthy body’s immune system isolates and destroys disease agents.
People (and their societies) are not comprehensible as abstract descriptions; rather, they are organic entities, and must be understood as such. Comprehending history on this principle (Spengler : civilizations are organic) was the great “sin” of the Germans, hysterically denounced by those it identified and isolated, as the Byzantines did and the Iranians (@MEFOBILLS) do.
Russia did not “screw up” with this decision. The Watchtower Society, the organization that JW’s belong to, is a very dangerous, mind controlling religious cult. It seeks to isolate its members from their family and non-JW’s, and makes it very difficult for members to leave the organization with constant indoctrination, prohibitions on reading anything critical of the organization, and “shunning” – complete disassociation from members who leave. Most people who become Witnesses eventually leave the cult, but unfortunately most spend many years (decades) in it. This decision is not about religion. It is about the protection of unwary people from the psychological abuse of the Watchtower Society, and the the Russian government has the guts to stand up to this hideous cult. I enjoy your articles, Saker, but on this issue you’re wrong.
The ban have been made by the justice in accordance with the constitution. Should the president interfere with the justice? I dont think So.
Sometime in democratie, such decision Can be made.
“What Russians call “natural” sexual orientations.” – This is to make “natural” a matter of social convention.
This is to make “natural” a matter of social convention.
This is to recognize simple reality. “Social convention” only codifies it.
Er, no. “This religion-inspired worldview” will only seem simple reality if you are already persuaded by the religion in question. Otherwise, it has to be argued for. That it seems to you “simple reality” is no strong argument that it is in fact simple reality. The majority in Russia, we are told, are not even religious. So their prejudice is a throwback to something they don’t believe in. Not a good basis for discrimination.
Er, Yes.
The irreligious segment of the population also recognizes it as simple reality.
You want to create categories which embody your mission’s ambition and impose them by suggestion (as usual, claiming to represent “majority opinion”) as substitutes for direct perception which needs none.
You want deviancy to be accepted as normalcy. You are in the wrong place for that. American “higher education” would be more receptive (the implication of that is intentional).
And, again, no.
I did not say it is “normal”. It is self-evidently not the norm. The question is whether there is any reason to discriminate on the basis of this distinction.
I did not claim to represent majority opinion.
“Direct perception”, such as it is, tells you only that some people do it and most don’t. If we have learned one thing, however, it is that there is no such thing as “direct perception” of “simple reality”. This applies in spades to moral judgements and social arrangements.
No. Culture is ultimately a matter of broad, general agreement in everything. Not because this is always correct in every detail, but because when everybody is “on the same page” and agrees to behave on that basis, interpersonal relations are on a securely predictable basis. No one has to “reinvent the wheel” each time, but knows what to expect in advance. This is why nations in centuries past needed so few police and law courts.
The allegation of representing the majority is drawn from seeing the political shenanigans around us, where this is everywhere clearly implied — so much so that agitating for it is understood as “virtue-signaling” even by those supporting it : the missionary impulse that seems to be ineradicably part of human nature tipping its hand.
Which brings us back around to the Jehovah’s Witlessnesses . . .
Sorry, our ripostes to each other appear to be printed out of chronological sequence.
“Culture is ultimately a matter of broad, general agreement”. Fair enough. What I’m saying is that there has to be some way to question and amend what was previously generally agreed. It is a simple matter of fact that there is some such way – culture evolves. The evolution is no doubt largely a matter of chance, fads and fashion. I see no good reason why reason should not also play a part. What good reason is there to discriminate against homosexuals just because the majority are not homosexual?
IMO, cultures have life forces of their own. Rather than being steered by would-be reformers, shifts in culture come from the grass roots ; comprehension of what is happening (not just noticing symptoms of what is happening) is usually after the fact.
When a culture as a whole has an attitude shift it shows up in behavior without anybody being able to put a finger on exactly what changed things or how.
What’s hanging you up is active vs. passive attitudes — mistaking one for the other (IMO). Homosexuality was officially double plus ungood when I was young — if you wanted to escape conscription, all you had to do was take the fifth amendment when they asked you if you were a homo. That would give you a supposedly insurmountable black mark of dishonor (like a dishonorable discharge), but you’d walk away from the induction center.
In private though, people didn’t want to know. Literally. If you were a decent friend or co worker, don’t ask don’t tell was the operant categorical imperative. So long as you weren’t flaunting it in peoples’ faces, there was no problem. There was no active anything — the flaming fags who got “discriminated against” were asking for it.
A homosexual friend has often told me how much better it was for people like him back then when it was “live and let live” so long as the conventions were observed. And how uncomfortable he is in the brave new world.
Self-aggrandizement on the basis of sexual orientation is what these creeps want. Not really tolerance, and not really acceptance as a “person” when “sex” isn’t on the table. They want to be up in peoples’ faces with their kink(s), and think the healthy instinctual revulsion that provokes is what “needs to change.”
They put themselves outside the boundary of civilization and complain that their outsider status is the fault of the people inside the circle.
IMO, they should all go away and attempt to perform an anatomically impossible act of a sexual nature. And not return until they’ve accomplished it.
You say it is not a question of religion. Religious and irreligious both find it “self-evident”,
You talk of norms. It is the norm to be right-handed. Does this justify discrimination?
You talk of what is natural. Outside of religion, you’re going to struggle to come up with a definition fit for your purpose. The natural thing for any organism in this context is the transfer of genes to the next generation. How much human sex has to do with the transfer of genes to the next generation? An awful lot is about something else. Much is for pleasure, single or mutual. If consensual, why discriminate? Much is an expression of love. Likewise, why discriminate? Some is violence. In expressing abhorrence and punishing such violence, why discriminate?
(Sorry, I’m also “I”. My typing was a bit palsied this morning.)
You regard it as an individual matter. As far as that goes, it is one. But the discussion is of it as a societal matter — in which the feelings and peculiarities of the individual are only personal ones, arbitrary in nature.
On a personal level there are 1,500 political opinions. But on a collective basis, these are noise — not signal. Culture — civilization — is necessarily a stable consensus — one not subject to being dissolved by appeal to consider the even bigger picture, and re-crystalized along lines more pleasing to the one wanting to re-do everything. Understood in this perspective, the long-time association of sexual anarchy with political anarchy in history occasions no wonder. They are the same impulse expressed in different (although interrelated) spheres, and both are toxic. Someone who advocates one will advocate the other. As we see nearly everywhere in the mass media, in the US “educational” establishment (a brainwashing operation) and in the rule of the systematic destroyers of everything possible.
I regard it as a societal matter what society should constrain in the behaviour of individuals. You have yet to give any good reason to constrain the consensual sexual behaviour of mentally competent adults.
You say sexual anarchists will be political anarchists. Um… perhaps, perhaps not. (I’m not sure political anarchism is such a bad thing if it can once answer the question how it would deal with coercion and violence.)
I did not advocate anything that could be described as “sexual anarchism”, so the question is not relevant.
You say sexual proclivities are a matter for the individual.With obvious exceptions (minors, violence etc.), I agree. You have yet to say why homosexuality is such that society must discriminate against those individuals who practice it. Why should homosexuality be one of the exceptions?
(Is it just gay men you have a problem with? Or are lesbians similarly to be discriminated against for not being “normal” or “natural”?)
You say sexual anarchists will be political anarchists.
In this morning’s news, courtesy of cosmic synchonicity :
The left-wing activists behind the anti-conservative riots at Berkeley have ties to one of the nation’s most prominent pro-pedophilia organizations. BAMN’s parent organization worked directly with the North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) in the years just before it founded BAMN, according to NAMBLA documents reviewed by The Daily Caller.
http://dailycaller.com/2017/04/28/documents-tie-berkeley-riot-organizers-to-pro-pedophilia-group-nambla/
It’s a bad crowd, and you don’t want to run with them. Judge the tree by its fruit — either one or both together.
I won’t comment on your bizarre belief that paedophilia is somehow the preserve of the Left.
I won’t comment on your bizarre/ barely meaningful slogan that “The instinctual aspect of life must remain intact”. Nor your apparent belief that the Nazis were a Good Thing.
We do appear to agree that society changes over time.
You have not yet anywhere attempted to answer the question why your “healthy instinctual revulsion” against gay men is sufficient reason for society to discriminate against them.
The self-evident needs no “why.”
It is not a matter of reasons for and against. Example : self-defense. “Reasons” are rationalizations of what is more fundamental than reasoning decorates with commentaries.
What is most truly absurd about this is that the “discrimination” you want to establish a prejudice against is not even in the realm of snowflake “micro-aggressions,” but an entirely hypothetical scenario. In which some homosexual would not even be identifiable to be discriminated against if he/she/it didn’t go around flaunting it, inciting the revulsion he/she/it could then whine about.
In short, it causes you revulsion and that is enough for you. It saves you thinking. That is not how a civilised society works. You will just have to hope you don’t cause anyone revulsion.
I don’t like what I read in this thread. Do I hear from Russians or from Russians in exile? The Saker is right. It is madness to go after religion. The witnesses will only get stronger.
Ann, you surely know how some of Steiners followers were treated in Germany. They found sanctuary in other countries, at least those who had the sense to leave Germany before the war.
I have seen Ukrainians show the world they have no reason (wisdom) at all. What am I to think of the reactions on this blog?
A female pastor said in the beginning of the 90s that we would see the Sovjetunion 2.0. Am I to believe she was right?
I am not a witness. I can believe the CIA has tried to take over the Watchtower, but the believers are what they are. People. People who believe. The Russian Court does not understand religion.
Do not see what is wrong with banning false religion? Freedom of religion is not in my bible. My church could be banned too when the government turns evil yes that is called persecution. Possible future persecution is no excuse to allow false religion.
Oh Saker, did you just open up another can of worms?
I know this Russian speaking Russian from eastern Ukraine, a neighbour, only now he thinks he’s a Ukrainian, and though he reluctantly acknowledges his former identity, he now hates everything about Russia and Russianness.
When I first discovered I had a new Russian neighbour, I had been excited, hoping finally I had found someone who would appreciate my Vote Putin lawn sign, and a bumper sticker, which I planned to put up for the last Canadian election. Turns out this neighbour of mine is more toxic than a Anglicized Russian living in Canary Wharf, and got his start in a Christian cult called Adventism.
7th Day Adventism was intoduced to Russia and the ‘Ukraine’ about the time of the Crimean war, maybe shortly after, by the Anglos of course, as a slow acting mind virus meant to destroy Russia from within. 150 years later the project has born fruit. You should listen to him chirp on about evil Putin.
As an aside, Adventists were quite useful in former Yugoslavia, where today there are large numbers, especially in Croatia.
What complicates matters is that the decision to ban JW’s was made by a Zio-Judaic government, in a country which was formerly conquered by other Judaic cults, dating back to even before Constantine saw the utility of forcing everyone in his realm to call themselves ‘Christian.’ Isn’t it funny how complicated these things become when others write our history and always with the purpose of making us forget and turning us against one another?
The decision by Russia is a correct one, though almost certainly for the wrong reasons. Today, a small river of self-hating Russians are migrating to the the West, some calling themselves ‘Ukrainians’, granted asylum based on claims they have experienced ‘persecution,’ no different from how (upper caste) homosexuals are themselves granted asylum based on twisted interpretations of truth and reality. Like the Ashkenazi and Whites who came before, they wll find something to do, but it will not be intra muro, for the Russians at least.
This decision strengthens Russia, sort of, because it removes potential 5th columnists while also, unfortunately, strengthens the various religious cults founded by Masons and proto-spooks in the place where I live. Nevertheless, does not Russia (it’s people and civilization) have the right to protect itself from invasive social projects meant to destroy it from within?
Now, I do have a terrible problem with government mandated blood transfusions, as you, Saker, have suggested be done with JW children. You are genuinely out of touch with the rabble, those of us who have experienced Children’s Aid in action.
Does not everyone see how we multiply our errors?
On the other hand I am not too concerned about how the adherents of various Christian cults — those of Constantine, Vatican-Rome, Calvin-Cohens or Tudors, to name but four, respond to this fracas. They are most concerned about their own fate, and of their own institutions, which are not nor have they ever been about God or the Truth, though the members know it not, their leadership does and for this reason I am wary of the weaponized people they send to my door, who would show me no kindness unless I first jumped over their hurdles, which they are fond of setting in my way, testing me to see if I am a witch.
I reserve the right to protect myself from all invaders. I think this makes me the ultimate conservative, though I once thought I was a Leftist, I now believe I am a Truthist, the last rock in Babylon, and I don’t care about your moral confusion except insofar as you attempt to impose it on me.
Basing a ban on JW for refusing transfusions is ridiculous. Few or no people die of lack of transfusion. No deaths were proven. So what if JW are skeptical of ALL governments including USA. The JW members provide diversity and are useful to productive society even in country where they preach distrust of government..
Charles Manson provides ‘diversity’ too.
“During the millenium, Israel, first nation of the world, will be at the head of all…” “The target of the ‘Watch Tower’ is thet of glorify Jeohwa God as Lord Sovereign of the Universe…” … “The God Real will destroy all those who oppress their similar..”
The founder, Charles Taze Russel (1852-1916 trader) recongnized the old ebrew spirit openly, was reported as jew from an Irish family (1839) in 1884 is founder of ” Biblical Society and of Watch Tower of Sion Treaty” than in 1909 loose the “Sion” adjective to ” Union of People’s Pulpit” in 1914 “International Union of the Biblical Zealant Students” and at last “Jeohwa Testimony” (1931)
In 1934 the Internal Minister of France expel all JW missionaries as sovversive (“nihilistic, antistatal, antinational and filisionisitc essence”).
They are against christian nations or States and openly decraring in favour of an Universal Repubblic (who will rule on it?)
Hans Jonak von Freyenwald: “Russell predictit the world domination to the ebrew people, sustained the sionism, was opposed to the christianity with talmidic hate, fought antisemitism and wished for all Countries and all Churches, except its own, revolutions and wars […] The JW doctrine is a mixture of religion and politics, where the polics is the target and the religion is the media [..]
….
the forth president in 1977, Frederick William Franz, jew of ‘german’ father, is the ideator of a new translation of the Bible, currently used by the sect. The fifth is Milton G. Henschel (1992)
You will find, if you care to look, that the footnoted “explanation” of Ruth’s joining Israel in the JW Bible is copied from the Babylonian Talmud.
FWIW
Dear Saker,
Of the several web sites that I view in order to try to educate and inform myself on matters of importance, you are perhaps the most honest and logical of them all. Most appreciated in this world of ignorance and deceit. Many thanks to you.
When will you westerners get off your high horse, and stop teaching others?sometimes, you are teaching civilisations that existed when you were still in the woods, eating raw meat!
First and foremost, if the JW are really guilty of damaging personalities or health of people, or if they systematically infringe on human rightw – then take them to court for these crimes and punish them. Why should one association/organization like the JW be singled out for committing crimes when every one of these crimes can be prosecuted in court? If the JW break the law, they ought to be punished according to the law, but why banning them? Why seize their assets?
Because your way is inefficient and does not show the strength of conviction
In short, it causes you revulsion and that is enough for you. It saves you thinking. That is not how a civilised society works. You will just have to hope you don’t cause anyone revulsion.
Someone is sufficiently tired of this conversation that the “reply” option after your post is removed. That being the case, this will probably be consigned to oblivion. But there is nevertheless a point in this that needs comprehended : reason is not primary in human life.
If you like something — be it pineapple sherbert, playing chess, exercise for fitness or anything else, you just like it because “something in you” tells you that you do. Asked “Why” you like it, you can rationalize forever, but not truthfully answer the question as it is posed, because you do not like (or equally dislike) for reasons. Reasoning is after the fact.
Remarkably resolute in not addressing the question. You can like or dislike. The question is when your likes and dislikes can justifiably encroach on the likes and dislikes of others. That a majority of your fellow citizens share your likes and dislikes in not enough. That you think your likes and dislikes “instinctual” is certainly not enough. Unless you address the actual point at issue, we’re done here.
We were really done a while ago, but OK anyhow :
You want to insist that reason is the ultimate arbiter of everything. It is not. That’s it in a nutshell.
You did not choose your spouse (assuming you have one) by reasoning. Nor did you choose your profession (assuming you are self-directed and have one, or at least prepared for one) by reasoning. You chose both because something about them them appealed to you. The same with your pet(s) (assuming you have any).
Your likes and dislikes in food are every bit as non-reason-based as those of our cats (like Wolford’s “unreasonable” love of spaghetti sauce and Rizzie’s distain of kitty treats).
When you attempt to enshrine reason as the court of ultimate appeal, you are setting up a (necessarily incomplete and defective) model of reality and pledging allegiance to it — which then becomes a procrustian bed on which everything organic is either mutilated into the appearance of conformity with it, or conveniently ignored. And because the necessity of ignoring that is invariably overlooked and denied (“rationalized away”), the habitual doublethink of humankind (not mankind — see how careful I am to meet you halfway ?) is an inescapable (and embarrassing) aspect of what people call “the human condition.”
Unlike you, I am not seeking to impose the rule of “reason.” (The Bolsheviks did that, and it ended badly. Ditto Thomas Aquinas). And doing it as “virtue signaling” — i.e., my refusal to genuflect at the shrine of your shibboleth makes me morally/intellectually unworthy of your time and attention (exemplifying as it does the best in . . . I don’t know . . . human goodness).
It seems all I can do is point out how unREASONABLE you are being by appealing to what you already know but choose to doublethink your way around. That, and not my supposed moral inadequacy, is the impasse.
When you turn cannibal because people are mammals and mammals are food (as Jonathan Swift advocated with tongue in cheek), you will be acting in accordance with reason. Until then you will be, by analogy, drinking and carousing on saturday nights and preaching on sundays, with both aspects of you life kept rigorously separate, one hand washing the other.
Talk-to-cats,
You have been courteous throughout. Thank you. It’s been interesting. You still have not addressed the crucial question how a society is to set limits on what is acceptable in its citizens. I do not “suppose you morally inadequate”, so I assume we both prefer laws that minimise suffering (and do not impose suffering just to satisfy a particular taste or preference – there has to be good reason to infringe on your fellow citizens’ tastes and preferences, not just that they are not your tastes and preferences). Maybe we can discuss it next time.
Best wishes,
Lindsay.
For next time, then : the decision is arrived-at by consensus.
https://www.sott.net/article/350284-Over-50-of-Germans-support-idea-of-introducing-a-dominant-culture
Harrumph. Dictatorship of the majority?
A bientot.
Dictatorship of the majority?
No. Norms established by consensus.
Like that one does not pass gas in a business meeting.
Nicht war ?
Article seems to ignore what is probably the biggest religion in Russia even today – communism.
Even though Vlad Putin is not communist himself, many Russians (especially those with military connections) are happy with him because they believe he is putting the country back into a state from which communism can be achieved at some future date. If you don’t believe this check out some of the chat forums hosted in Russian military towns and see for yourself. For example sevpolitforum.ru