John Mearsheimer just published a piece in Foreign Affairs entitled “Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault – The Liberal Delusions That Provoked Putin“. It is a typical “establishment” piece in style and assumptions – along with some rather misleading statements about the war in Georgia – but I still recommend that you read it. Here is the interesting excerpt:
There is a solution to the crisis in Ukraine, however — although it would require the West to think about the country in a fundamentally new way. The United States and its allies should abandon their plan to westernize Ukraine and instead aim to make it a neutral buffer between NATO and Russia, akin to Austria’s position during the Cold War. Western leaders should acknowledge that Ukraine matters so much to Putin that they cannot support an anti-Russian regime there. This would not mean that a future Ukrainian government would have to be pro-Russian or anti-NATO. On the contrary, the goal should be a sovereign Ukraine that falls in neither the Russian nor the Western camp.
To achieve this end, the United States and its allies should publicly rule out NATO’s expansion into both Georgia and Ukraine. The West should also help fashion an economic rescue plan for Ukraine funded jointly by the EU, the International Monetary Fund, Russia, and the United States — a proposal that Moscow should welcome, given its interest in having a prosperous and stable Ukraine on its western flank. And the West should considerably limit its social-engineering efforts inside Ukraine. It is time to put an end to Western support for another Orange Revolution. Nevertheless, U.S. and European leaders should encourage Ukraine to respect minority rights, especially the language rights of its Russian speakers.
Some may argue that changing policy toward Ukraine at this late date would seriously damage U.S. credibility around the world. There would undoubtedly be certain costs, but the costs of continuing a misguided strategy would be much greater. Furthermore, other countries are likely to respect a state that learns from its mistakes and ultimately devises a policy that deals effectively with the problem at hand. That option is clearly open to the United States.
Now, I have no illusion about Mearsheimer, he is spokesman for what I call the “old Anglo guard”, the folks who have been gradually, if partially, displaced by the Neocons, who then got behind Obama, only to be re-displaced when the Neocons skillfully took Obama under their control. In other words, Mearsheimer only speaks for the defeated and resentful part of the establishment, but a still powerful and influential one. His article could also serve as a kind of a “feeler” with the rest of the US “deep state” to see what reactions it triggers.
What do you think – does the publication of this article mean that some kind of the beginning of a realization that the US needs to revise it’s Ukrainian policy?
What do you think?
The Saker
No one wants to be backing the side that is killing its own countrymen. Of course the EU/US know they are backing the bad side. They need an escape.
That counts double if they discover Ukraine took down MH17 (it probably happened and they have probably confirmed that now). And quadruple if the US or say Poland had a hand in it (US satellite over the site at the right moment etc.)
Actually proof of false flag might even be enough to justify a reversal if blame can be contained to Ukraine.
It might be too early to say it in US, but partition is the only answer. East and West Ukrainians will want to kill each other for the next 30 years. Partition is the only answer.
Besides rebuilding the East is one thing, but who is going to ask Putin to fund the economic disaster caused by the West.
no. unfortunately.
I think that the americans will not go back with their machinations. They will push ahead their plans of destabilization. I consider that the russian government needs to take the iniciative in some way. They cannot only react to the blows of the enemy. I am not telling that Russia must be agressive, but that Russia must be proactive. Russian elites must forgot whatever illusions they have about the real objetives of the western elites. Westerners, only lust for the submission,followed by fisical and cultural disintegration of Russia.
Then they will tackle with China.
Cui Bono = Crimea
Both Obama (Deep State) and Putin are in cahoots.
There has to be some collateral Damage (crappy terminology) to pacify the neocons.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
“”old Anglo guard”, the folks who have been gradually, if partially, displaced by the Neocons, who then got behind Obama, only to be re-displaced when the Neocons skillfully took Obama under their control.”
What do you base that claim on? Or rather, where can one read more about the ‘deep state’ of the US?
Kindly,
the Afghan
I would say, No. The Western Ruling Class believes that its economic and military power are so transcendently overwhelming that Russia must submit to its demands.
With regard to the Ukraine, this is a delusion that leads nuclear war, but the delusion controls Ruling Class thinking.
@Michael Droy: “Besides rebuilding the East is one thing, but who is going to ask Putin to fund the economic disaster caused by the West.”
For Crimea and Federalized Ukraine, Putin will be glad to oblige.
BTW, Netanyahu days are numbered too! ~:) OH, HAPPY DAY….
Best regards,
Mohamed.
John Mearsheimer is not a bad guy. I met him when I was a grad student at the University of Chicago. He is one of the few American academics who have dared to oppose the Israel lobby in the USA. He told me that Israel is nuts, and that the USA is actually encouraging the destruction of Israel by giving them unqualified support.
I do not think that Mearsheimer’s article heralds a change. It may indicate that change could happen, but that would be unlikely. His views haven’t led to a real change vis a vis Israel.
Mr. Droy stated that “no one wants to be backing the side that is killing its own countrymen.”
I noticed he stated this in an earlier post.
Who does he mean by “no one”? and “wants”?
Evidently, many US foreign policy elites do indeed want to back governments that kill there own people.
What matters to our foreign policy elites is our (or really their) interests. If supporting murderous regimes furthers their interests, they do it without hesitation. The bad press is inconvenient for them, but not determinative.
Examples:
We supported democidal regimes in: Iran under the Shah, many central american regimes (see the School of the Americas), Chile (engineering the overthrow of Allende and the murder of thousands of his supporters), Saudi Arabia, etc.
We also support numerous murderous movements, such as the anti-Assad Islamists, anti-gov’t radicals in Venezuala, etc.
The great historial William Appleman Williams wrote about the perfidy of American foreign policy in The Tragedy of American Foreign Policy.
The American elites are insulated from the terrible results of their policies, and the American people are too dumbed down to care.
Russia needs to develop her internal economy, and be courageous and forceful against American/NATO aggression, while developing strong alliances with China and the BRICS.
I would venture to submit that the only reason this was published is because it was written by someone the establishment views, or can safely view if it so chooses, as an anti-Semite. It is at least possible that this article was put out simply to identify the anti-Russophobia position Mearsheimer propounds with perceived “anti-Semites” and anti-Semitism. “Oh why should we listen to Mearsheimer, that frothing anti-Semite whose book with Stephen Walt all but called for Holocaust 2.0?!” is what I imagine the mandarins of Foggy Bottom saying to themselves.
No sitrep? The BBC says there is street fighting in Lugansk and Donetsk. Any alternative news? It’s depressing just listening to the MSM.
FYI: aid convoy
Part of the Russian humanitarian convoy crossed the border of Ukraine
20.08.2014 – 21:28
Part of the Russian humanitarian convoy crossed the border of Ukraine. The first four truck with the help of the residents of Donbas entered the checkpoint “Donetsk”, said “Russian News Service” the press Secretary of the southern customs Directorate Ryan parukhin . Four more trucks waiting for their turn, he added. Other trucks are still on the Russian territory.
On the eve of the Russian foreign Ministry stated that between the head Minister Sergei Lavrov and President of the International Committee of the red cross Peter Maurer reached an agreement on the delivery of assistance…
I’ve seen this reported nowhere else yet. Perhaps the twitter account of a convoy driver reported in previous thread might become a second source; his most recent post at the time of this writing:
Alexander Boyko @ AlexBoykoKP · 2H
# gumanitarnyykonvoy ukrotamozhenniki nod to the ICRC, which claim that they have the permission of the Ukrainian side.
Kieth Darden also hails from the realist school and writes interesting articles for foreign affairs
“What do you think – does the publication of this article mean that some kind of the beginning of a realization that the US needs to revise it’s Ukrainian policy?”
No, it just means they run into unexpected trouble w/ Russia and in other places (ISIS etc.). and they try to find new options how to deal with it. This is typical for the US. They do have an ideology but at the end they are pragmatists.
The key issue here is something totally different: the understanding of what is really happening.
To most people in this blog and to most ppl that oppose what the US is doing in Germany the reasons are simple: Europe is a US colony. The Jews and US are running the world. We are oppressed, conquered, not free. Conspiracies are happening everywhere and we are the victims.
On a surface level this appears to be plausible – but only on a surface level. If you dig deeper another view approaches. One with many contradictions to this popular view and one with many unanswered questions.
If you go for the simple answers, you’ll find them in people (Putin, Obama, the West, the Anglonazis and what have you) – it will just make you fight them as they fight you. Both sides do not get the reasons why we are in this deep shit and what force forces us to behave like that.
I offer a different view – fully aware that on this blog or in in Germany I represent a very small minority – but an educated one: it is the system stupid! The rotten status of capitalism is forcing us to do this. The fact that capitalism – to borrow this term – has become too productive for its own sake. To understand this: critical thinking and political education – not any longer provided – is necessary. Education about what capitalism really is all about and what gets it into (maybe its final) crisis. IT and robots – aka this level of productivity – might spell the end to the concept of the exploitation of labour
The reason why Putin is so smart – and not just him but most guys around him – is not bc he has a secret service background (which might help), but because he was educated in the USSR in soviet times. He is able of dialectic thinking. Most of you are not. Don’t take this as an insult – take it as a hint where you can educate yourself better. Read the classics! Read Marx, Hegel, Lenin and YES disagree! But understand their methods of thinking! They were much more sophisticated than what we have today. They are great in explaining most of what is going on – same time they do NOT offer solutions for todays problems. “Workers unite” sounds maybe nice but those days are over. We need a. to learn to understand capitalism much better and b. because of that we need to develop alternatives for everybody on this planet to have a much better life!
WW from Germany
Ps.: as the new right in Germany has proven: even they did learn a lot when studying the left.
Absolutely not. The goal is to re-acquire Crimea and prevent the de-dollarization.
The Deep State has absolutely no concern with the numbers of dead and destruction laid waste by the Empire of Chaos. They are means to an end.
If Putin continues to stand by and Eastern Ukraine is depopulated, that will just be Uki Lebensraum for Galician fascists to replace the de-Russified East. Win win for the West.
Neoliberalism and Neoconservatism are intertwined by both American parties.
Willing captives to the banksters, MIC and SIC in concert with the Corporate Media
The only hope is that the EU can re-assert its role against NATO but I don’t see that happening.
and if the EU is made casualty to this by plunging Europe into recession, well American wins that too.
In other news, Western wire service MSM are lying again about glorious Ukie conquest of most of Lugansk. In reality it looks like their blocking force south and west of the city are getting chewed up pretty badly and the approaches from the east toward the Russian border remain open. As for the encirclement of Donetsk, well ask Donbass and Azov Battalions how they worked out for them yesterday in Ilovaisk where the American Ukie volunteer got himself killed.
https://twitter.com/GrahamWP_UK/status/502161412542967808
@Michael D
Obama won’t accept a half a loaf as regards to Ukraine. The EU doesn’t want to let in another basketcase as they head into their “own goal” recession.
All the goodies, that haven’t been destroyed, are in the East. They won’t let Putin win that “prize”
And why would Putin want a destroyed Eastern Ukraine that he is obligated to rebuild? He wants to direct those resources to developing Russia
This article – which I saw on Washington’s Blog – no doubt as you suggest reflects a split in the US ruling circles. Does it reflect an actual split in the billionaire class? Between the billionaires and the garden variety multimillionaires? Between a Globalist and an Isolationist wing? A Financialist and a Real Economy wing? Whatever, any division at the top is an opportunity for the usually-voiceless if it’s real and properly understood.
Thus it’s worth an effort to understand.
Dutch journalist confirms Associated Propaganda reports of Kiev half conquest of Lugansk and encirclement of Donetsk are fraudulent, though undoubtedly Ms. Vasilyeva will claim that the Ukie forces were beaten back and the reports were accurate at the time…
https://twitter.com/HaraldDoornbos/status/502148334388543488
Amended post, if not too late:
This article – which I saw on Washington’s Blog – as you suggest may well a split in the US ruling circles. I say this not because of who wrote it, but because Foreign Affairs published it.
Does it reflect an actual split in the billionaire class? Between the billionaires and the garden variety multimillionaires? Between a Globalist and an Isolationist wing? A Financialist and a Real Economy wing? Whatever, any division at the top is an opportunity for the usually-voiceless if it’s real and properly understood.
Thus it’s worth an effort to understand.
A video of some of the early demonstrations to remind us how it started . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sAg__pWR3fk
To the tune of ‘The People United, Shall Never Be Defeated’ . . . makes me cry. And then laugh to think that a ‘united Ukraine’ sponsored by the USA is a concept existing in the popular imagination, an imagination uninformed by the knowledge of 20th century history, the Soviet people, the Russian people . . . it’s truly unfortunate that so many will have to die in the attempt to prop up such an illusion in the service of empire . . . but maybe it’s a necessary price to pay for peace and freedom.
As an American, I support Novorussia and the Russian Federation. I also support the remnants of Soviet Ukraine, and I hope they join with the resistance in the nearest future in the task of the revolution.
Revising US policy at this point is trying to figure out which “western faction” will throw which other “western faction” under the bus.
It seems that the US/Junta side is under growing pressure time wise. 1) Winter is coming. 2) Russian sanctions on west are really stressing the western alliance. 3) Ukraine is economically rapidly reaching the point of real disaster. (one example is coal lost from Donbass for their thermal power plants). 4) The Junta itself is starting to tear apart (I think one reason for how long the aid convoy took so long to get through was infighting in Kiev). 5) NovoRussian resistance (in my mind) is getting more experienced (duh, of course) and at this point I don’t see it collapsing (I could be wrong, I guess). 6) MH17 report coming out may really stink up the joint (no matter what kind of spin and BS the US applies to it).
Whereas Russia/Putin can continue with its policy of containment. I still say Putin wins the long game. It still will suck for the poor bastards caught in the Ukrainian meat grinder, but nobody says that life is fair.
So, “does the publication of this article mean that some kind of the beginning of a realization that the US needs to revise it’s Ukrainian policy?” mean a climb down in western policy. Probably, but western policy changes will need someone to blame. So, I think we are somewhere around stage 4.
Seven Phases of a Project
1. Wild Enthusiasm
2. Illusion of Progress
3. Panic
4. Disillusionment
5. Search for the guilty
6. Punishment of the
innocent
7. Praise and reward for the non-participants
Suddenly our life changed – Однажды наша жизнь изменилась
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MshQF4g2Lm4&feature=youtu.be
Extremely well-done professional animated short feature created by the children in Rostov, early July, refugees of Ukraine.
English titles, moving without being sentimental, simple, powerful.
The US has gone certifiably insane as it sees the end of world-wide hegemony. An empire in its death throes is not a pretty sight. As an American, it’s embarassing to see happening.
That being said, in regards to Ukraine, I don’t put much stock in the cited article. The better hope lies in exposing the Nazi character of the junta’s storm troopers. This is happening to some degree in the Western media, but not nearly enough for a shift away from the established position.
Frankly, it’s hard to focus on any one thing with the world seemingly coming apart at the seams. This chaos serves the US’s purpose well.
In the end, what will change things in Ukraine is either going to be a wakening of the average Ukrainian or winter.
My money is on winter.Godspeed, Donbass!
The US elites all now know for certain that the rebels and Russia had nothing to do with MH17 yet they continue to rattle sabers and, I think, truly believe that Putin is entirely to blame. A country this blind will never change and trust me, the truth about MH17 will never be admitted to. The black box report will be “inconclusive” and it will be business as usual – not one mind will be changed. This is child’s play for them.
First thoughts on this are:
1. The Russian sanctions on the EU have caused a lot of discontent among EU countries which will continue to worsen and there is a significant risk of one or more countries unilaterally opting out of sanctions. This would undermine the position of the US and simultaneously put the skids under both the Euro and EU
2. The EU is in recession and further sanctions (as are being openly discussed by Russia) would push it further into a very dangerous situation economically.
3. Points 1 & 2 are very bad for the USA and their plans for economic integration (take-over) of the EU and support for the Ukraine.
4. This article by John Mearsheimer might be testing the water of opinion among those in the US establishment that take him seriously. If there is support for the move he suggests the US could consider it a sensible move. Better a neutral Ukraine and stable EU than an unstable EU as that way the US gets bugger all.
5. Of course, it should go without saying, that this option allows the US to try a different and perhaps more successful attempt to control the Ukraine at a later date!
The ultimate US goal is the seizure and control of the oil and gas in central Asia. That was what Afghanistan has been about (unsuccessfully). Ukraine was merely going to be a bloody cork in Russia’s transiting gas lines.
At least from the quote, it appears the author doesn’t seem to touch real US interests.
As for there being a division in the oligarchy, if things aren’t working there is always division.
I wish it showed the beginning of a change.
But the realist Mearsheimer already published an article back in March. It was called “Getting Ukraine Wrong”.
So nothing new: Mearsheimer hasn’t changed his mind…
Saker said:
“His article could also serve as a kind of a “feeler” with the rest of the US “deep state” to see what reactions it triggers.”
That’s all it is, a feeler. The lunatics whose policy it is to destabilize Putin and conquer Russia, and steal its resources and stop Eurasia development (which hurts China’s rise won’t have any of it.
There is no U.S. public pain yet. There may be anxiety among the few who know and understand. There may be Ukraine as “another” policy mess-up, like Libya, Syria and Iraq, Afghanistan (all of which belong to Dems and Obama now).
However, it is an election year and the Republican wing of the Establishment Elites contains the war hawks who want to win a hot war somewhere. Plus, most of them are Jewish. And most of those folks see benefits to Israel in Ukraine. These are the loons who think they can deal with Nazis. They also are the wealthy who trade in human misery, weapons and commerce. And Russia and China would not be happy to have them around the foundation of Eurasia. So they are outsiders and that is fearsome to them, but common to their history.
For those political, Jewish, and commercial reasons as well as it was “their” plan to use Ukraine and kill Russians, I think this goes nowhere in the U.S.
It will take a devastatingly bad end for the Junta to change American minds.
And our military likes to use proxies. Win or lose (and we always seem to lose) it costs nothing on their careers. NATO and US generals like the idea of testing technology and studying insurgent techniques at no cost. This is a lab for warfare. Like a daily seat at IMAX—free.
And the only blood loss is the blood of others, particularly Russians.
What could be better?
All this elite is saying is what Kissinger said at Maidan. No one listened. They wanted to create what we have, and they shoot down airliners, blowup civilian convoys, delay humanitarian convoy with the aid of the Red Cross for ten days and counting. There’s no concern at all building.
This is Ukraine: the bloody video game for policy game players. Listen to the spokespersons and the callous indifference to the suffering. When that changes, policy may change.
And all of NATO’s eastern nations are getting re-armed and receiving more American basing of troops.
It’s great for them. Why would Elites in any of the Western colonies (nations?) want this to end?
Of course, gas in the winter and food exports, loss of jobs in key manufacturing will change attitudes. But none of this harms the U.S.
So, what ends Ukraine’s war is victory by the militia. It ends when Putin wins. It ends when Russia wins.
Softies (weak sister intellectuals) never end wars.
Adlai Stevenson was a pathetic man. Jimmy Carter another. Obama has kissed up to every violent psycho in the world and we have the most volatile stage of international chaos in decades.
Even the dear Pope has called for all out international war against ISIS.
Folks are getting it. You have to kill the rabid dogs of war and terrorism. Some periods in history just offer no option. Victory to Novorossiya!
100% irrelevant rubbish. Western imperialism’s imbecility and depravity in times of terminal prolapse have taken such a toll on Western bourgeois society that evilness and insanity aren’t optional but absolutely intrinsic to it. Rape, theft, and murder are the hall-marks of the West. Indeed, it has brought Nazi mayhem to the Ukraine for the two following reasons chiefly:
1) Confrontation with Russia
and
2) Financial enslavement and wholesale looting and trashing of Ukraine’s natural resources, courtesy of IMF, Western oil tycoons and ditto agrobusiness.
Ergo: The alleged “beginning of a realization in the US elites amounts to zero, zilch, nada. I mean, get real: would you expect to ever witness a deteriorating booze party turning nice and beautiful by bringing in some carrot juice? Sorry: swine and scum do take pride in their own vileness, mind you. Referring to them as “partners” doesn’t work either. Unrequited love is a sure recipe for defeat.
It’s a littlebit too late for that, there is no going back now; so many lives wasted, too much is paid and the stakes are tremendous meaning global… There will be Novorussia and there will be eurasian Ukraine with junta and banderists out or serving a lifetime.
The OSCE keeps exploding the lies that are repeated daily in western media.
As for Mearsheimer, he’s channeling Kennan, a type of analysis that hasn’t been in favour in the USA for quite some time now.
Hopefully we’ll hear something from Baker or Scowcroft soon although I’m not holding my breath.
John M
Thanks for the Seven Phases of a Project.
Having been on many 30-100 million dollar film productions it gave me a great laugh. Indeed! It sums up human leadership’s nature precisely whatever the endeavor.
The banks have screwed up the economy again. War it will be, and the only escape valve they employ to write off the countless trillions they have created. Same game as always, war the racket. The banks do not care, who the nationalities are to keep their game going. Politics or money, money wins every time. Unfortunately the sheep cannot see the game they are playing. All our politicians are bought and stay bought. Sickening show every time.
The original article can be spun in any way our handlers want. They allowed this to be published and it is just more crap to review and discard. The Hegelian dialect in action again.
Cheers and prayers for the broken and down trodden in Donbass region.
Nato-Member Turkey Threatens Western-Owned Banks, Shifts East, Cozies up to Russia | Wolf Street
Since the U.S. and EU began imposing and then widening and tightening sanctions against Russia, some U.S. allies have been getting second thoughts. The latest nation to begin severing ties with the U.S.-dominated Western alliance is arguably the most important yet.
That nation is Turkey, the largest and one of the fastest-growing economies in the Middle East – and most importantly, a long-standing NATO ally. For years Turkey has been slowly drifting away from the West, as its economy and geopolitical influence have grown. It hasn’t helped that its accession to the European Union has been repeatedly blocked by countries such as France and Austria, and is now directly opposed by Angela Merkel.
With recent events in Ukraine and the Middle East sending geopolitical shock waves around the world, Turkey’s Eastward shift appears to be accelerating. In a harbinger of things to come, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s chief economic adviser, Yigit Bulut, announced that Turkey needs to “strengthen control of its banks and limit foreign ownership.”…
TWO NEW BATTLE MAPS /
MOTOROLA’S DETACHMENT ROLLING INTO DONETSK
For those who follow the battles (for myself, it helps relieve the depression of the news of so much deliberate murder of civilians by the junta), just launched:
WarMarker – Ukraine
crowd-sourced ***, dynamically updated, and interactive war map from Colonel Cassad
*** ..I remind that if you think that it is necessary to add your information to the map, making it more detailed or thorough, then you can do it by yourself after registering on our resource. Your markers will enter pre-moderation after which they will be added to the map and will be available to everybody. This way you can take an active part in creating a precise map and documenting the military action in Donbass with binding to the map.
I use Mac Safari browser primarily due to the integrated RSS feed, but after a few minutes clicking around on WarMarker – Ukraine I set it as my Google Chrome home page and set that browser to open at start-up.
Google Chrome doesn’t translate the place names on the map, but that’s no big deal; it does translate the Settings and Markers (left sidebar), as well as the information that pops up when one clicks on the interactive features.
I’ve been using Google Maps to copy and paste place names I encounter in my reading, but one can just as easily do that here using the search box at the upper right and, of course, a much better result on this map with its continually updated interactive features.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SLAVYANGRAD.org is now regularly posting (once weekly?) a simpler map; without interactive battle details, and not dynamically updated, but unlike earlier versions, sufficiently zoomable to see details clearly and with place names in English; most recent:
Map of Novorossiya Hostilities (English), Aug 10-18, 2014
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Longer than most videos I’ll watch but, in addition to being interesting due to the urban terrain, I found it inspiring — and these people very likeable, even when I can’t understand a word they’re saying:
[VIDEO – 10:22]
After a victory under Miusinsk, Motorola’s detachment rolls into the city to help Donetsk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The profit is in the chaos.
The Globalists are delighted. Their plan is unfolding right on schedule.
Putin has no friends, and knows it, otherwise China would be getting better weapons.
US Anglos do not support Globalists.
Interview given by Ukrainian colonel to the Ukrainian newspaper. It is in Russian.
Colonel Ruban about East Ukraine rebels: There are people there with whom I stood on Maydan
http://www.pravda.com.ua/articles/2014/08/20/7035274/
“Russia has nothing to do with it”
(from the interview)
I will try to translate, it might take some time. If someone can do it quick, please do.
N-V
I agree with you about the US establishment. Fundamentally there is not disagreement among them but they may have different approach to their hegemonic objectives.
@Brian,
clipped this from a comment from MOon of Alabama to bolster your claim of a fraying EU coalition regarding NATO insisted sanctions
some headlines:
Hungary PM Orban condemns EU sanctions on Russia
EU unity on Russia sanctions fraying despite tough talk
EU’s Russia sanctions doing more harm than good says Hungary
EU sanctions like ‘shooting oneself in the foot’ – Hungary PM
Greek farmers hit hard by Russian sanctions against EU products
Eastern Europe braces for Russia sanctions pain
Ukraine Says Sanctions May Force EU to Buy Gas at Russian Border
Despite US and EU Sanctions, Russia’s Economy Is Still Growing
France calls on ECB to act as eurozone growth grinds to a halt
German Economy Contracts, France Stagnates, Italy in Recession; Time for a Rethink
France rebels against austerity as Europe’s recovery collapses
Euro zone recovery snuffed out
There’s no end in sight to Europe’s woes
Italy slips back into recession, Germany rejects France growth appeal
To also support one of your points Brian:
We hear threats of more sanctions against Russia. The first time Putin played his hand after the EU weaksauce sanctions were applied. (Bend but don’t break. Chastise and scold).
Putin trumped them totally unexpectedly with hard returns.Right at harvest time. Whole countries are going down over this!
Now the rumblings of more substantial sanctions as Lt. Fall and Gen. Winter approach, Putin isn’t waiting to drop his counter ex post facto.
He has already proposed what comes next: automobiles (car sales are way down in Russia right now anyway), alcohol (Jack Daniels was already banned over phyto irregularities) and tobacco.
Bring it EU, your turn!
I think it is encouraging to see some consideration that the proxy war in Ukraine has become a bridge too far. Perhaps it also signifies that US foreign policy has way too many irons in the fire. It will ultimately come down to what theaters of created conflict are most important to the shadow government. Allowing the IMF to “manage” the Ukrainian economy would be a win for western interests because it gives an entry into controlling the ownership of assets.
(Sorry if duplicate mother effing captchas are insane on The Saker)
To bolster another of your points Brian:
When the EU engaged in their weaksauce sanctions (Bend but don’t break. Chastise and scold to hector Putin into compliance). Like he is a boy in long pants sent to “time out”
Putin took his time and laid down his cards. BAM! Major return sanctions right at harvest time. Suck it Latvia, that’s a whole lot of fishsticks for you to suck on. Poland – how you like them apples!
Now that the EU is bleating about further sanctions. Threaten and cajole, keep Putin on his knees in suspense.
He isn’t waiting this time for the shoe to drop, he has already listed what comes next
1. Automobiles (car sales are way down in Russia right now anyway)
2. Alchohol (they have already banned Jack Daniels on phyto/food safety issues)
3. Tobacco
Your turn EU, bring it!
I suggest that The Guardian inaugurate a new network, to augment its ‘New East Network – Inside the post-Soviet world’ . . .
New West Network
Inside the post-American world
What an opportunity for actual journalism that would be. Well, the only journalists likely to be left around to write the story will be delivering a post-mortem. Maybe what is needed is a New Guardian, just like New Russia, New Europe and New America.
All support to the anti-fascist resistance!
One thing that might argue for the Mearsheimer article as a ‘feeler’ is the possibility of the Democrats losing in the midterms. @Nussiminen “100% irrelevant”: but the greater aim may be one that’s behind saving the US-dollar and delaying if not rendering impossible (not likely) Eurasian unity, the Chinese=Russian Silk Road, etc. – Russia has become a successful state. They have a strong middle class; unlike the West they are in a position to have a low flat tax rate (as low 1s 13%); apparently more people own their own homes, apartments; they apparently can afford a fairly decent pension system, etc. – all threatening to the West. China and Russia are in the process of helping Latin American and Asian states to realize their economic potential. Read articles on Thailand’s and Mongolia’s turns to China (New Eastern Outlook). See articles on Nicaragua’s grand canal, new Eastern development banks, Russia’s development of its Far East – and on and on and on.
Anonymous @ 20:17 has it right: Putin was educated in the USSR. Today in the US (and, regrettably, it’s becoming similar in Germany), the better jobs go to people who have gone to private schools, have associated only with their own kind, think philosophy as for cocktail parties, practice cynicism like a religion, and expect, no, demand to be promoted because they belong to the system. Their flatmindedness is the opposite of the flexible, long-term thinking going into solutions in Russia. Putin belongs in a class with FDR; the US will never produce another FDR, although they are in great need of one.
@Mohamed
Cahoots — synonyms and related words.
alliance
amalgamation
banding together
bunch
clan
coalition
combination
confederation
conjunction
connection
crew
crowd
gang
hookup
incorporation
joining
league
merging
mob
outfit
partnership
relationship
ring
syndicate
tie-in
union
btw — several days back, when I wrote Sistani, I meant Khamenei. Thanks for your long response but the mistake ruined my point.
You know what I would like to see? Get the humanitarian convoy into Ukraine and then on Ukrainian Independence Day Putin unleashes his own version of r2p:
No Fly Zone over Eastern Ukraine
that would be like Christmas in August
@Old Ez 20:09
Your rant re Walt/Mearsheimer would seem to indicate an extra-heavy dose of Zio-caine earlier today.
Walt/Mearsheimer are heroes – at the expense of advancement in their academic careers and under relentless assault from the pro-Zionist media megaphones, they fearlessly exposed the Israel Lobby in their landmark book.
Anon 20 August, 2014 19:47
I agree and if you been paying attention to them for the last 40 yrs like I have you’ll notice they give the signals that they have moved on only to go about nation destruction another way.
Well, I’ve read the abstract, not the full article, and I must say it sounds good as a solution.
However, I can think of several problems to apply:
1) What to do with the oligarchs. With Kolomoisky and his army of thugs ( they will not respond for their crimes?. Unacceptable for any decent person ). With Berezosky / Khodorkovsky assosiation and his extreme hatred towards Putin and his vital efforts to avenge him by causing an Orange Revolution in Ukraine (who will stop them?).
2) This solution would think any normal person with some sense of shame and decency and ability to learn from their mistakes. But we had not agreed all along that we are ruled by psychopaths? Any chance to reason with a psychopath? No, as have noted the Russian leadership in different and sterile negotiations conducted so far, not to mention the humanitarian convoy interruptus at the border. Any chance of a psychopath recognize their mistakes and look for correct them? No, they are impervious to change and do not learn from experience or mistakes.Once unleashed psychopathic storm where the psychopath’s nothing like a fish in water between the vortex of evil unleashed, why would he want to give up an environment where it can unleash its true instincts and walk around without the mask of sanity?
3) What about the people who have taken up arms in Novorrosiya?, Can a normal person who has been compelled to take up arms to defend his life accept a future under the same state that has tried to exterminate it without mercy and then having seen the hatred unleashed among his fellow citizens above the West? I see difficult. Hatred and resentment sown there will be difficult to eradicate. Furthermore, they will have to accept back to the same system with the same or other oligarchs forward? I’m afraid not, not after having taken the step to move to armed struggle.
4) We did not come to the conclusion that America needs this war or one bigger to solve their deficit and hegemony problems? Why would they stop now if they have invested so much money and credibility on this? Did they leave it somewhere once the NWO operation began?
5) What about the Nazis in Kiev (Pravyi Sektor, Svoboda, UNA-UNSO), who will return them to hell where they came without the suffering people suffer more casualties? CAn you return the essence of evil to their lairs after they have left and savored the taste of power?
6) Once the public is waking up and more in the awake of this conflict, why the hell would accept the Russian, European or American taxpayers pay their taxes all the disaster caused by the mindless in power? Let them pay the oligarchs who have funded this.
If this disaster has something positive is to have come to the knowledge of the need to create a new organization between states, multipolar, with respect for the sovereignty, with strong, neutral, independent institutions (economic, humanitarian, international law and justice ), alternatives to those existing as corrupt and useless for human development and world peace. Going back to before again?
I hope not.
That martyrs in Novorrosiya, Iraq, in Gaza, in Ferguson and everywhere where died and die innocent people for the greed of a few have not died in vain.
Mearsheimer’s impossible task was to write something remotely sensible, to find a bit of daylight, pertaining to ‘Western’ (whatever that is) policy regarding Ukraine and Russia, while tangled in, and subservient to, the ‘West’s’ web of lies and clichés and hypocritical and pompous vainglorious suppositions.
Frankly, just about every M sentence is an embarrassment if fuzzy mindedness posing as clear thinking is deemed blush-worthy. Notice how Ukraine is best served by attaining sovereignty – Sovereignty! Ah, how many countries on the planet could boast that enviable status? I suspect Mearsheimer will have downgraded ‘sovereignty’ in his use of the term as a synonym for not-complete-abject-vassal-dom.
Yet this article for all its pathetic-ness stands out like a shining beacon, an exemplar, in the ‘West’s’ intellectual ‘mainstream’ wasteland where anything remotely resembling a combination of integrity and intelligence are just about extinct.
However, the question that Saker poses is does this article signify a growing ‘Western’ realization that oops we may just have screwed up, we better think again, concoct a new improved plan, and so on? One might be tempted to hope so, to a point, for s second or so, except that the new plan, unless it breaks radically with tradition, will continue to be some variation on the theme of Empire-quest and totalitarianism, and subterfuge, and another detour away from a beneficent human prospect. I’m not holding my breathe.
Saker,
I appreciated your comments on the Mearsheimer piece, which I had seen earlier. I am too pessimistic to believe that this piece heralds a change (one robin does not mean spring) but what I think it does indicate is that rationality is not totally extinct in the non-ruling part of the elite. Caryl
The CFR Foreign Affairs article by Mr. John Mearsheimer is a trial balloon. USEUUK with their hands full –Daash (IS) AQ the two wings on the same dragon of their own funding cannot be put back in the test tube. Hands are so full and time is not on their side.
The IS beheads American journalist
Iraq falls into real chaos. Gaza boils as Israel gets the green light and is re-supplied. The Afghan elections are undetermined with no Status of Forces Agreement. Pakistan rumbles again. Oh, Benghazi-Tripoli in flames. Syria’s Assad continues. Ukraine, do we dare keep it? Yats said he needs $8 billion to restore damaged infrastructure in East Ukraine. Sanctions blowback/The Ferguson factor/The Great Recession still going strong.
Did I miss something? Ah. No boots on the ground in Iraq. But we are sending more troops.
~ ~ ~ ~
Kiev confirms Militia shoots down Ukie Su-25
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140821/192197266/Militia-Shoots-Down-Ukrainian-Su-25-Attack-Aircraft-over-Luhansk-Region.html
KIEV, August 21 (RIA Novosti) – Independence supporters have downed a Ukrainian Air Force Su-25 Frogfoot attack plane over the Luhansk region late on Wednesday, a spokesman for the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine said.
Earlier a number of media reports suggested that a war plane had been shot down in the region.
And this:
8 Troops Killed in Eastern Ukraine, Including One American
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140820/192173185/Kiev-Says-8-Troops-Killed-in-Eastern-Ukraines-Ilovaisk-Including.html
MoA names him – a West Point grad, 55 years old, dies in botched Attack
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2014/08/ukraine-west-point-graduate-dies-in-botched-attack.html#comments
The Ukrainian army and the oligarch funded right-wing “national guard” volunteers are not making the progress they claim to make.
On the ground, fighting raged unabated, with Ukraine’s interior minister, Arsen Avakov, asserting that Ukrainian forces had entered the town of Ilovaysk, about 11 miles east of Donetsk, the rebels’ biggest remaining stronghold in eastern Ukraine.
But that attack on Ilovaysk was repelled:
At 22:00, the “soldiers of the Donbas battalion withdrew from battle near Ilovaisk,” the press release stated. Four soldiers of the battalion were killed by militants and the battalion commander Semen Semenchenko was wounded.
Regarding your question Saker, the only thing we know is the old Anglo ‘establishment’ — or a faction within it, are sending Russia a message.
This in no way signals the old establishment is ascendant. Far from it. They are weak and ineffectual like Mearsheimer himself.
In fact, as I look at the situation developing in Iraq, I’d be feeling pretty good about myself if I were a neocon.
Mearsheimer’s statement is meant to lull Putin into a false sense of security while the Empire slowly severs Kurdistan from Iraq. The message to Putin is play along now and we’ll help you in Novorussia afterward.
Would you take that offer?
Only if Poroshenko agrees to a full cessation of military activities will Mearsheimer’s comments have meaning. Moreover, it has to happened today.
This is a negotiation. The Anglo-Zionists are playing good cop/bad cop with Putin.
Larchmonter445 said…everything I wanted to say:).
I might add: how is it even possible to expect from the ziofascists to stick to any agreement whatsoever?
Novorossia must win, & only then it may make agreements.
Otherwise, it’s going to end up like the Serbs from Croatia in the operation Storm, which is the blueprint for the hunta’s genocidal war, i.e., Storm 2.0.
I think they fear being exposed. Should the American people learn what has been done in their name, they might find their collective conscience and their missing sense of outrage. This FP article is somewhat encouraging.
I just wanted to say a few kind words for Alex Jones. I know Alex is a bit abrasive at times, but he has done more than almost anyone to alert average Americans to the corruption and danger in our government. People from across the country listen to Infowars – including rural Americans, farmers, ranchers, border guards, police, military, academics, Hollywood celebrities and former political insiders (from here and around the world). Whenever someone in this country wants to blow the whistle on a story they contact Infowars. PrisonplanetTV is a true people’s program. Live reports of government malfeasance pour into that program regularly and are discussed on the air.
Alex is an imperfect person, like the rest of us, but he is audacious and unrelenting and committed. Soon after 9/11 he was one of the first journalists to be out on the street provoking the public to think about that event. He has been widely despised for years because of such maneuvers, but he is undaunted by the criticism. It takes a very courageous person to do what Alex does.
I have heard Alex and his team admit many times that they are not perfect and sometimes get things wrong, but at least they are trying to expose the truth. Most US alternative news sources are covering up for US crimes in Ukraine right now. Infowars will never do that. As unpolished as they sometimes are, they deserve a lot of credit for what they do, imho.
pc
I think very soon they’ll strike a deal!
rt.com/news/180924-ukraine-crisis-berlin-talks/
rt.com/news/181376-putin-eu-ukraine-meeting/
We are tired, fed up with death, destruction, fraud, misery, chaos, t billionaire thefts, oligarchs …..
Tired of having all this and then are passed the bill with costs.
We want change …..right now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQfY8LHYfew&index=5&list=PLB9CC51B6B6817CB1
WW from Germany, right on.
One can continue to beat a dead horse, but the critical mass of the West is less and less critical. It is the smaller of the two adversarial camps. Just as Germany was in no position to take on the Anglo-Zionist world, this time the AZ, technological wizardry notwithstanding, cannot realistically take on the large bloc of astute “former Marxists”. They act on a different historical logic. They are not dealmakers, and when the West’s “strategic thinkers” like Brzezinski have some dream strategy, that is a fantasy strategy; the “natives” are no longer using spears and arrows.
The West is not only bankrupt, is bankrupt and little.
The reality of the US position, as envisioned by cold war hawks, is manifested in the “Russian Aggression Prevention Act” currently under consideration by the US legislators. This is more properly described as the “American Aggression Enabling Act”
http://orientalreview.org/2014/08/01/the-american-aggression-enablement-act-and-the-us-eurasian-thrust-i/
This proposes further destabilization of the Balkans, especially Serbia, which is a proposed hub of South Stream, roll-out of missile defense, destabilization of Belarus and, Moldova, along with actions against Armenia.
This is all to maintain US dollar control over energy markets and to reduce Russia’s influence over energy supplies.
Realization of Psycopaths and Sociopaths? This is not going to happen. En contraire, they will beef up their efforts to keep their show running.
Mearsheimer is barking (quite silently) at the moon.
To quote Lou Reed: When a sin goes to far it’s like a runaway car – it cannot be controlled.
A follow up:
I am not sure if Saker himself is well briefed on Marxism and its dialectical subtleties. For those educated in the West, dialectical materialism is some kind of Godless brain disease. The future however cannot be about going back to the Tsar, the Pravoslavnics and the Double Headed Empire.
Could I ask Saker about his views on dialectical materialism?
The American government will only change their politics in Ukraine, if the price they need to pay becomes too high.
Such moments like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDIvWqsA2U8
But since there is no American blood spilled on Ukrainian soil, it is “only” about money and money can be printed.
So no, no beginning of a realization in the US elites. This paper will be forgotten soon.
I should apply the KISS principle – but
This professorial article is not going to change anything in US thinking. Just an entertaining alternative view, of no consequence whatsoever.
Why?
1) AIM of US and/or NATO from the end of the Cold War was to dismember Russia, or at the very least, impoverish and severely weaken it.
2) T oo much has been invested to “bring democracy” to Ukraine – money – $5 Billion said Victoria Nuland – plus whatever millions since Maidan – economic advisers, economic plans of US corporations to take over assets – Joe Biden’s son on the board of directrors of a Ukrainian gas company. Lots of CIA , FBI, and military agents running around, mercentary companies …
3) MINIMUM US plan right now would be to ASAP create havoc so as to cause maximum problems for Russia.
Since when did the US break suddenly from a project like this – for reason, or ethics – when so much invested? Not In Vietnam, not in Iraq, very slowly in Afghanistan, and possibly only now in S yria.
To counter, I can see all kinds of clever things that Putin can do, or is doing, or the Novorossian militia – but that’s for another post.
— Medea
Mearsheimer
Speaks for nobody !
I have his book and know of his work.
He has been attacked strongly by the
pro Israel can do no wrong crowd.
He deserves great praise for bring
AIPAC corruption to the main stream with his work. What changed ? Since then the USA has become more corrupt and the propaganda mill more blatant, they are not hiding nor do the criminals care, they have learned nothing will come of
the resistance.
Ukraine is never going to be put back together, the terror masters
know this, job well done, nothing they do is an accident. Fucking criminals.
Saker,
I started reading this blog a few weeks ago and I’ve found really really interesting.
Can I ask you a question?
In the article you linked Mearchmeier continue to repeat that “Russia is a declining power, and it will only get weaker with time”. Do you agree with that? They are not strong as in the Soviet times, but they are much better than in the 90s and they are slowly trying to differentiate their economy (now too much dependent on gas and energy exports)….
I wonder to what extent Ukraine could be a sort of large scale experiment in mass mind control. The behaviour of very large numbers of people seems irrational in a sort of hypnotic way. They think nothing of making their children dance around burning effigies of Russians. I look at all those neo-fascist, Banderist or whatever young people marching with their shaved heads, tatoos, chanting patriotic hymns… and it seems to me these are extremely angry people, really enraged at having no life because their country was systematically raped and looted into exhaustion since it was born in 91. Glaziev spoke of thousands of Ukrainian neonazis having been “bred” in the US or by the US. It seems to me somehow the understandable anger of those people has been deftly channeled into Russophobia by dint of injecting in their heads the idea that all the misery and hopelessness of their lives is somehow due to Russia.
I am starting to believe we may be very ignorant of the huge strides that mass mind control has made during the course of the 20th century.
Journalists on tweeter report that people in Kiev seem shocked when shown images and videos of what’s going on in the east. As if they had no idea whatsoever. They live in a kind of parallel universe. They are told the army they are fighting against are Russian invaders who bomb the cities of the east. If they have any doubts, they prefer not to entertain those thoughts. A kind of collective hypnosis half driven by fear. Very weird.
Anunnaki 21:36
I like you thinking!
Some light relief.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYAkoZeV75I
Who gets the girl? Wait and see.
I think we should expect nothing of the US elites, they have aligned with the Ukrainian Nazis, the Israeli Zionists and, covertly, with the ISIS takfiris. It was the British public and parliament unwilling to drink more of the US kool aid, the US public and soldiers baulking at fighting on the same side as Al Qaeda , and the diplomatic skill of Putin and Lavrov that stymied the plan to bomb Syria. It will take the same configuration and a rebellion in the EU to reverse US/EU policy towards Ukraine and Russia. As there is not yet a question of direct military intervention people in the west are generally not motivated to protest and may still buy into the demonisation of Putin and the disparaging of Russia. Putin must continue being the diplomat he always is, urging his ‘partners’ to recognise the humanitarian consequences of their policies and showing then that Russia too can impose economic ‘costs and consequences’. Putin must avoid being pulled into a direct military intervention that would do more harm that good, and I think having watched the outcomes of numerous US interventions he will have no doubt about the folly of that path.
The people of Novarossiya have somehow found themselves ‘on the side of the angels’ and are on the front line against a tide of evil. Those of us in the west who have some understanding of what is going on must keep talking and trying to educate the others, and must urgently pressure our politicians to withdraw support from the Nazi, Zionist. takfiri killers.
I think there’s a problem with your question, Saker, and it lies with the assumption that the US acts strictly in accordance with a unified, coherent decision-making process. That may, perhaps, have been the case under Bush-Cheney, but what’s going on now strongly suggests more fluidity, if not outright anarchy at the top. I mean, for starters, we don’t even know if Obama is truly calling the shots, being bribed, threatened or otherwise forced into them, or simply informed afterwards. But the problem isn’t just at the top bc you’ve also got all sorts of warring groups of spooks, not just the internecine Old Hand vs. Neocon stuff in the CIA but CIA vs. DIA vs. NSA and however many else there are, the Neocons in DOS and DOD, the banksters, the corporatists, the MIC — and where exactly do you put the military contractors bc I’m not convinced they aren’t taking private contracts from foreign sources, are you? Are all these forces following specific directions and acting in concert under a president as operationally weak as Obama, or do they all just know the goals and objectives, etc., but then feel free to proceed as they see fit bc there’s no one strong enough to force them to do otherwise? I’m still inclined to vote for the latter. So while some people in DC may be seeing that this may not have been a good idea, I’m dubious that the MIC, defense contractors, Neocons and at least some corporatists don’t still like it jall ust fine. And don’t forget, Mearsheimer is not only an Old Hand but has also been dubbed an anti-Semite, so he may not be taken all that seriously at all any more by anyone vying for the “in” “in group”.
It is, however, at least a tentative first step. Mearsheimer was right on the Israel Lobby and took a lot of grief over that, but he did ultimately open more than a few eyes. And perhaps this time (crossing fingers) the naysayer chorus will be more quickly disounted.
Imperial over-stretch.
Today in the UK there is great discussion about “boots on the ground” in Iraq to quell ISIS, but the reality is – there are no boots. Defence cuts mean the UK can never project that degree of force.
A man cannot serve two masters: either you can be a Neo-Con or you can be a Neo-Liberalist. They are not the identical by any means.For the last 25 years they have formed an uneasy alliance, but one that
seemed to deliver. Partially.
This “acknowledgement” is what I would expect: a clearing of the ground while they run for the exits.
And the EU needs any of this like a hole in the head. Perhaps the EU has made it plain that they can’t be expected to pick up the tab for a broken Ukraine when we can barely keep ourselves afloat.
Over to the Kremlin. Like they want the place either. You’d think by now, after all this weight of historical experience, Ukraine would have realised just what they can expect from their unique geographical position and learned to box clever.
To echo Where-Wolf, the old Anglo establishment is sending a message. However the message is two-fold, first to scout out a possible solution for Ukraine should the current power process fail. second, it is to probe and see if Russia can be turned back from its current lean towards China. The deals Putin made and is making with China – especially military deals, have taken the old Anglos by surprise,or at least have them very worried. I believe this kind of feeler is to see if Russia is willing to move back to a more neutral position between the West and China.
Saker,
I posed a long two part analysis the Ukraine tragedy that links to the Mearsheimer article with a lot more context under “interview with Sergiev Glaziev on 20 Aug at 7:20 and 7:21.
Overall he is going against the CFR crowd and seemed to be hammered in the comment section. I am really surprised he got published there give the Foreign Policy Journal represents the synthesis of the “Master of the Universe” so that they can coordinate their actions and reap the rewards.
@Rodion_Romanovic:In the article you linked Mearchmeier continue to repeat that “Russia is a declining power, and it will only get weaker with time”. Do you agree with that?
Not at all, that is US elites deluding themselves, like Obama’s “Russia is a regional power”. Right now, Russia is only getting stronger and stronger, and the events of the past couple of years prove that Russia is a serious challenger to the AngloZionists.
Cheers,
The Saker
To answer your question Saker, no the US elite will not change attitude and will continue to play empire, until they are halted by circumstances. The sequence will be:
A) Big financial crisis first…
B) which will triiger ethnic violence and breakup of the union.
http://deepresource.wordpress.com/2014/08/20/eastern-europe-and-turkey-are-arming-isis/
Kind regards,
Dutch