Source: http://rusvesna.su/news/1426608080
Translated from the Russian by Alexander
March 17, 2015
The Ukrainian governement started another campaign of historic proportions. On the central square of Lviv they want to raise a giant monument of Metropolitan Andrey Sheptytsky who led the so-called Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church for 44 years (1900-1944). For this the Ukrainian authorities are ready for anything – even spend a budget of $ 1.3 million and dismantle the square. At the same time, the country is on the verge of economic collapse.
The reason for this urgent display of honor is apparently the fact that on July 1, 1941 (the day after the Nazis occupied Lviv) A. Sheptytsky addressed the congregation with a welcome message for this cause. After that, he met with the leader of OUN (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists), Stepan Bandera, and blessed him for his fight against the Soviets.
In the light of Uniate’s prosecution of the Orthodox Church, that’s now being carried out throughout western and central Ukraine, accompanied by the beating of believers, seizure of churches and blackmailing of priests, the installation of a monument of Uniates „headliner“ undoubtedly looks like a political action.
Well-known historian and author of several textbooks Evgeny Spitsyn commented:
„It is not clear how Ukrainian authorities want to commemorate A. Sheptytsky. He had been a servant of the Lord, just as in his time the famous French Foreign Minister Charles Talleyrand was and he is a decendant of the Polish Count Sheptytsky.
If they set a monument for him like for the first Ukrainian nationalists – that certainly would be nonsense. Firstly, he faithfully served the Austrians. There is evidence that his appointment to the rank of Metropolitan of Galicia was sanctioned by the Emperor Franz Joseph. And when in 1938 the USSR annexed Galicia, he began writing enthusiastic letters to Stalin in the style of „what a blessing that we are reunited with the brotherly people…“ When the Germans took Kiev, Sheptytsky sent a sparkling ode to Hitler: „Thank you, Adolf, invincible commander!“. Later, when Soviet troops liberated Lviv, he said in September 1944 in his local pseudo-church council that communism is the progressive movement, called the clergy of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church to actively cooperate with the Soviet authorities, condemned Stepan Bandera and demanded that the UPA fighters lay down their arms.
Today, we see almost an identical figure in the person of defrocked Filaret [Denyssenko?].
It is interesting, that literally just two months after his fabulous performances at the council (November 1944) Sheptytsky died. Historians still argue whether he kicked the bucket by himself or someone helped him do it.
Some researchers, including the initiators of the monument cited Sheptytsky as especially sympathetic towards Banderovites. On the other hand there were proposals to assign him to the righteous of the world for hiding Jews during the occupation (which the same Banderovites exterminated).
Try to be all things to all men. Typical Galician brown-noser of the type ,,who pays the piper calls the tune“.
And this be law, that I’ll maintain until my dying day, sir
That whatsoever king may reign, Still I’ll be the Vicar of Bray, sir.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viw5JXopin0
“In English and German, I know how to count down
“And I’m learning Chinese” says Werner Von Braun
Naturally, the suppression of the Greek-Catholic Church in Ukraine (and not only) is forgotten. If somebody wants to know the true history of that church, even Wikipedia has a pretty decent version.
The moral of this “article” would be:
Orthodox = good (with the exception of those who are not our friends, those are bad)
Catholic = bad
But what will the Hungarians say ? Or the Venezualans, who are not all of them Marxists ? Although it’s true that the Hungarian Catholics are pragmatic enough to shake hands even with the enemies of their faith, if their interests are looked after.
Enemies. Enemies. Enemies are like trouble. Seek and ye shall find.
Solution: STOP LOOKING.
Thank you for taking the trouble to respond to my comment and help me prove my point. The Hungarian Catholics were nowhere to be seen when the Catholic faith was being attacked by the marxists, but here they are when there is any mention of Hungary.
Flor Solitaria – just wait until Bot Tak gets you.
@ Ann
:)))
Well, I suppose your comment makes some sense, now that I’ve read it again. I don’t really understand what you mean…but I guess the Catholics are against Putin ? in Hungary now.
Ann, I am a Catholic and I have a great admiration for Mr Putin. It is disheartening to see some of the opinions expressed here but there is nothing I can do about it other than to say, again, that I see no point in alienating your natural allies. There are doctrinal between the Orthodox and the Catholics, of course. But we are both in the same boat when it comes to loathing the USA/Zionist alliance, aka “the Empire of Chaos” and perhaps we should pool our energies in fighting our common enemy.
The article of Sheptytsky is superficial as well as unhistorical but this was answered by another commenter so I needn’t add to it.
Finally I would ask our Russian friends to be understanding on one point: Bolshevism, or to be specific Judeo-Bolshevism, was an evil thing that for all intents and purposes destroyed Russia. Here Mr Solzentitsyn has instructed us well. While Catholics were and are appalled at both the Communist and Nazi regimes, Catholics who know their faith rejoice to see Russia healing herself after a near century of Communism. And that is why many Catholics have great hope for Mr Putin.
Please try to understand these things and avoid simplistic ideas like those expressed in the article.
All religions, like any other human community, however defined, contain individuals of different psychological, moral and spiritual type. Some Catholics are kind-hearted, fraternal, convivial, open-minded. Others are narrow-minded, sectarian, bigots, some capable of extreme violence and cruelty. The same can be said of Jews, Moslems, Buddhists or Hindus etc. The followers of the fundamentalist strain in religions, ideologies and economics are, in my opinion, almost always pernicious, dangerous and quite evil.
very true
@ aged parent
Dear friend, do not ask for pity or for understanding from your enemies. They will never give it you. For the Catholics it is the choice between Gog and Magog. “But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved”.
it does seem these religious battles are, to some extent, regional. people far removed from the Slavic world are unconcerned by them and have a different perspective. I am an American who was baptised in the Russian Orthodox church a number of years ago and have occasionally attended services with a Catholic friend, as there is (here at least) “reciprocity” between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
All those chins!
@suppression of the Greek-Catholic Church in Ukraine (and not only)
The “suppression” of the UniateChurch in the “not only” (i.e Romania, why don’t you name it?) was in fact the result of the return of people to Orthodoxy. Uniatism in Transylvania was imposed by the Habsburgs who abolished the Orthodox Metropolia of Alba-Iulia and foisted a hierarchy “united with Rome” upon the Orthodox population (as it happened in overwhelming majority Romanian), against the will of the Orthodox who rejected it, protested against it and revolted several times (1744, 1759-1761) until they obtained “toleration” in 1781. The Orthodox returned in droves to the Mother Church, which forced the authorities to add amendments to the Edict which restricted the return. A statistics from 1761 was conclusive: there were 2,253 uniate priests for 515 churches and 25,174 families against 1,380 Orthodox priests for 1,362 Churches and 126,712 families! (proportion maintained even today; 1 uniate church for 408 parishioners vs. 1 Orthodox Church for 1055 parishoners).
Today the so-called Greek-Catholic Church in Romania is dying (192,000 followers with 790 priests vs 13,000,000 Orthodox with 14,000 priests). It is on the life-support of the Vatican and the vociferous Western MSM.
The Greek-Catholic denomination in Romania was much bigger. In fact it was the second biggest one after the Greek-Orthodox, and it was considered an official Romanian religion in the Constitution of 1923, just like the Orthodox denomination.
When the Greek-Catholic church was supressed in 1948 in Romania, most of the clergy was imprisoned and almost all of the top clergy was killed or died in jail. The Greek-Catholics had to hide their faith, because they were oppressed by the communists worse than any other Christian denomination.
Their churches were confiscated by the state and given to the Orthodox Church, which hasn’t returned most of them to this day, despite court orders.
Romania has the most Orthodox churches in the European Union – over 18, 000. Most of them built after 1989. The Romanian Orthodox Church also has a huge allowance from the state budget and keeps building new cathedrals and churches, so there should be enough to accomodate all the Orthodox faithful.
Oh, my friend, unfortunately you are not a lonely flower in believing the fiction of the grand persecution of the Uniates by the Orthodox Church sold to Stalin. The truth is that the Ukrainian Uniate Church was entangled in the anti-soviet fight of the OUN.
This is a scholarly review of a book, pertaining to Harvard Ukrainian Studies.
The book was written in 1996 by one of the most eminent scholars in the field, and it is well-documented. It’s called “The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and the Soviet State”, by Bohdan R. Bociurkiw, who was a Professor of Political Science (with special emphasis on Soviet politics, Soviet Ukraine, and church-state relations) at Carleton University.
As it says in the review, this is “a topic which generated an impressive literature, including both memoirs and research”. So it would seem that there is enough information on the subject. It further says:
“The list of archival sources includes an impressive amount of material from the formerly inaccessible Soviet depositories. Bociurkiw gained access to documents from the archives of the Greek Catholic Church that were confiscated by the Soviet authorities, the former KGB archive in Kyiv, and Communist Party and State archives in Moscow, Kyiv, Lvov, Ivano-Frankivsk, and Ternopil, as well as materials pertaining to republican and oblast officials in charge of religious affairs. These and other materials, quoted abundantly in the book, have made it possible for Bociurkiw to produce the most authoritative study of the Soviet destruction of the Greek Catholic Church that has appeared today.”
“The book provides an impressive amount of information on the preparation, logistics, and actual execution of the plan to destroy the church. It also documents the process of intimidation of the clergy, as well as the arrest and exile of Greek Catholic bishops, priests, monks, and nuns. Bociurkiw’s archival findings present a unique opportunity to check the validity of studies of Soviet religious policy written in the West before 1991. The newly aquired KGB, party and state documents prove ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ what Bociurkiw and some of his colleagues claimed long ago: the ‘reunion’ of the Greek Catholics with the Moscow Patriarchate was not voluntary, but was orchestrated by the state and conducted in the most brutal way by Stalin’s secret police.”
The review can be found at http://www.jstor.org and the book at http://www.amazon.com
Bohdan R. Bociurkiw, born in an area that was then Poland, was embroiled in OUN and spent time in Gestapo prison as a result. After the war he emigrated to Canada where he became a Professor of Political Science. The way he specialised in Soviet and Ukrainian subjects, he was probably the biggest influence of all on Canadian and even USA viewpoints about Ukraine.
I would not say anything he wrote would be totally neutral or unbiased.
His son Michael is OSCE head in Ukraine, which may go part of the way to explaining OSCE’s lack of impartiality.
Well said. And there has been a veritable cottage industry in creating Soviet documents from ‘the archives’ since 1991, particularly under the cirrhotic Quisling Yeltsin, to suit Western propaganda purposes. Repression of the Uniates might have had something to do with their wartime collaboration with the Bandera forces, particularly as the US kept supplying Ukrainian fascist guerillas inside the USSR until 1952. Moreover these ‘churches’ were influential in revanchist Ukrainian emigre communities inside the West who, when they returned to the Ukraine proved, surprise, surprise, to be as malignant, fascistic, violent and murderous as their forebears.
the zio army to discredit
your slip is showing
Do you have any links for that ?
Well, first you have to have methodological reservations when you use obviously partisan materials.
Secondly, Bociurkiw talks about the Ukrainian Church. Quoting him to illustrate the situation in Romania is again a methodological error.
Thirdly, the abuses suffered by the said church are not a proof of the legitimacy of the said church (actually born itself from an abuse).
The uniate church in Ukraine, as the one in Romania, were simple tools of the Vatican and as such followed the anti-Russian and anti-Orthodox directions of the Vatican. Think how of the Cult of Fatima (and of other “apparitions” of the Virgin), with its emphasis on the Virgin’s promise of Russia’s conversion, has been given immense prominence by the Vatican. Pius XII encouraged Catholics to volunteer for the Russian front. Catholics—most of them devotees of the Virgin of Fatima—joined the Nazi armies from Italy, France, Ireland, Belgium, Holland, Latin America, the USA and Portugal. Spain sent a Catholic Blue Division. In 1942, after Hitler had declared that Communist Russia had been “definitely” defeated, Pius XII, in a Jubilee Message, fulfilled the first of the Virgin’s injunctions and “consecrated the whole World to her Immaculate Heart. The Cult of Fatima suffered a devotional recess with the defeat of the Nazi armies. But it was revived in 1945 and became a weapon of the Cold War. It continued unabated till now (adding more and more “apparitions” – Garabandal, Medjugorje).
Ukrainian uniates had their fair share of “apparitions” too.
Saint Sophia Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church (The Colony, TX)
February 17, 2014 ·
“Our Lady of Fatima has a direct connection to Ukraine. Come learn, pray, and celebrate a Morning with Mary this Saturday!
Procession & Enthronement at 8 AM
Prayer at the top of every hour
Confession available 8 AM – 12 PM
Custodian present to answer questions
Procession & Departure 11:45 AM
On May 12, 1914, two weeks before World War I, twenty-two people in the village of Hrushiv, Ukraine who were mowing fields near the local church witnessed an apparition. The Mother of God told them: “There will be a war. Russia will become a godless country and Ukraine, as a nation, will suffer terribly for eighty years and will have to live through the world wars, but it will be free afterward.”
The same message was shared in 1917 with three young children in Fatima, Portugal. The world-famous International Pilgrim Virgin Statue of Our Lady of Fatima was sculpted in 1947 by Jose Thedim, based on the description of Sr. Lucia, one of the three young seers from Fatima. Sent out to bring the Message of Mary to the world, the International Pilgrim Virgin Statue has traveled the world many times, visiting more than 100 countries, including Russia and China, bringing the great message of hope, “the peace plan from heaven,” to millions of people. Many miracles and graces are reported wherever the statue travels, including the statue shedding tears many times.
Mary again visited Ukraine in 1987, exactly one year after the Chernobyl nuclear reactor disaster. Nearly five-hundred-thousand people witnessed the subsequent apparitions as she appeared daily for months, often before crowds of tens of thousands at a time. The Theotokos said, “I have come on purpose to thank the Ukrainian people because you have suffered most for the church of Christ in the last seventy years. I have come to comfort you and to tell you that your suffering will soon come to an end. Ukraine will become an independent state.”
“My children, all of you are dear to me and please my heart. I make no distinction of race or religion. You here in Ukraine have received the knowledge of the One, True Apostolic Church. You have been shown the door to Heaven. You must follow this path, even though it may be painful.”
“The Eternal God is calling you. This is why I have been sent to you. You in Ukraine were the first nation to be entrusted to me. Throughout your long persecution you have not lost faith, hope, or love. I always pray for you, my dear children, wherever you are.”
https://www.facebook.com/StSophiaParish/posts/10152032566069858
A Catholic denigrating the history of a Catholic Church.
Well, that says a lot about that person’s “Catholicism”.
I’m thinking that a Christian is required by his/her faith to be honest,if they are truly a believer (the “thou shall not bear false witness” commandment).I don’t think there is a pass on that if it concerns your own sect, “don’t lie,unless the truth hurts us.Then lie your head-off “. There are good and bad in all faiths.Some use their faiths to do evil.Those need to be exposed and condemned,whoever they are.It’s an historical fact,that the Catholic Church leaders in Poland and Austria (the Hapsburg Empire) came up with the idea of creating the Greek Catholic faith (the Uniates) as a backdoor way to destroy Orthodoxy among the Orthodox peoples of those nations.To bring them closer to the Vatican and away from Russian Orthodoxy.The Russians were/are quite aware of that.So they have fought that plan from the start.After WW1 the Greek Catholic leadership in the then Polish lands (today’s Ukraine and Belarus mainly) worked with the Polish government and later the nazis,on anti-Soviet (translation:Anti-Russian and anti-Orthodox) propaganda,and encouraging their members to fight against the Soviets.That isn’t a guess,but is a well know fact.After WW2,they helped local fascists escape to the West,as well as organize anti-Soviet guerrillas,and aid Western intelligence services (CIA).You are right that the Soviets tried to eliminate that threat to themselves.They enforced the reunion of the Churches.And imprisoned those that betrayed the country.There is a high level of dislike (hatred?) in Ukraine at least.Between the Greek Catholic (Uniate) leadership and the Russian Orthodox Church, that dates back to the start. Each side basically thinks the others leaders are the “spawn of the devil”.And the fact that most of the West Ukrainian fascists are/were Uniate, certainly doesn’t make that any better.I suspect if the Uniate fascists could have their way totally in Ukraine, with the Russian speaking Orthodox.They would emulate the Ustase plan from WW2 concerning the Serbs (they are/were much alike in thought and actions) and follow the plot of “convert 1/3,drive out 1/3,and kill 1/3”.The problem for the Uniates is they only make up around 10% or so of Ukraine’s population.The vast,vast,majority are Orthodox.But sadly divided by the greed and selfishness of one leader in Ukraine.Matched by the stupidity of Church leaders in Moscow.The Ukrainian seems to think he can gain the whole pie by brown-nosing with the junta.So he is dividing his own people even more.While the majority Orthodox, loyal to the leadership of the Church in Moscow, are caught between a rock and a hard place.The more loyal they are to Moscow,they are repressed as “Russian agents”.While neutrality leaves them defenseless against the anti-Orthodox.So they are having a rough time right now.One more reason liberation of Ukraine needs to come soon.
[Next time, please use paragraphs! They are your friends and they make reading much easier!] ~ Vineyard Moderator-DC
What uniate leadership ? Yats is a scientologist, Porosh is a self-chosen, as are the most of them. Kolomoisky, who is leading from behind so to speak, is a Uniate ? All of a sudden those 10% managed to subdue the other 90%.
Those are not the “West Ukrainian” fascist leadership as you should know since you visit this site.Those are the US backed stooges in power.There are levels of power in Ukraine.Those with mouths and those with guns.The ones with guns are the Uniate leaders.
But besides that.How does your comment dispute the historical facts I presented.That’s right,it doesn’t.
.It’s an historical fact,that the Catholic Church leaders in Poland and Austria (the Hapsburg Empire) came up with the idea of creating the Greek Catholic faith (the Uniates) as a backdoor way to destroy Orthodoxy among the Orthodox peoples of those nations.To bring them closer to the Vatican and away from Russian Orthodoxy.
?????
You are conflating two periods several hundred years apart. The Church existed already, as an Orthodox one, split from the Moscovite branch in the mid 15th century but most of the population followed Russian Orthodoxy. The (Catholic) Polish king pressured the Ruthenian Church into uniting with Rome (hence “Uniate”) in 1596, whereupon they set about forcibly converting the Russian Orthodox population. This at the time included Belorussia and Malorussia. Two hundred years later the Polish empire was broken up land these came under Russian control, and the people were forcibly converted back to Orthodox again.
The partition of Poland put Galicia into the Hapsburg empire, which encouraged increased education and power for the Uniate church, as a bulwark against the increasing Orthodoxy in the now neigbouring Russia. In each of these cases, the driving motive was acculturation — to bring the whole culture or identification of the people somewhat closer to that of the rulers. Forced changes of language and names (personal and of places) often also accompanied these changes of imperial power. This was a period when “Ukrainianisation” was also encouraged, to distinguish from Poland and Russia both.
After World War 1 Galicia was back under Polish rule, Pololnisation started up again, this time with destruction of the Uniate church, which Poland had originally helped come into being. Not a matter of religious belief, but a matter of changing the peoples’ identity, to reduce or remove old allegiances. After World War 2 under Soviet influence the Uniate church was officially dissolved and people only allowed to be Orthodox again (to the extent this was allowed at all in Soviet times). Priests who did not change to Orthodox were persecuted or killed. Many of them,and lay Uniates, escaped or emigrated to the West.
The Church was allowed to emerge from the underground under Gorbachev. Revanchist fights over who owned which church, and enforced “conversions” in both directions, started immediately and are ongoing today. Also today the Galicians are taking out a lot of hatred, for all these centuries of being messed around, on SOUTH EAST Ukrainians, who never had anything to do with any of it, while claiming to be one nation with the Malorussians, who did, and calling on (and getting) help from Poland which started their woes in the first place.
@ WizOz
Partisan material ? You gotta be kidding. What kind of material is used by everybody on this site other than partisan material ?
I quoted Bociurkiw’s book when you corrected me about the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. I understood that you challenged me to provide information about it, so I did. About the situation in Romania we had already discussed.You denied the abuses suffered by the Greek Catholic Church, so I gave you proof of the abuses. If you also want info about the church in Romania, there are many books and websites which provide it. Just remember to keep an open mind and heart when you read them – narratives of abuses are usually written by victims, not by their tormentors.
Re legitimacy or not, I don’t understand in this day and age some people’s obsession in forcing other people to follow a religion they do not want to follow, just like it happened in the past. Personally I couldn’t care less what religion anybody belongs to, whether they are Catholics, Jews, Orthodox, Buddhists, or followers of the occultist Rudolph Steiner. And I expect them not to try and dictate me what doctrines I should espouse.
As for the apparitions, marian or otherwise, they help people believe in God, because many of them need signs of His presence. Of course most of the apparitions are fake, deliberately or not, that’s why the Catholic Church recognizes very few of them. Some are downright ridiculous, others are even damaging to the doctrine (Ida Peerdeman of Amsterdam) or to the unity (Medjugorje) of the Church. But they respond to a visceral need of a disoriented people trying to find its way through the dark night of the soul.
Do you think that the Catholic marian apparitions and the miraculous Orthodox icons are any different in the eyes of a non-believer ? In the end God will sort them all out.
Re Fatima and the conversion of Russia, here is a very interesting article about it on the site of a Hungarian Traditional Catholic (or so they say) couple, Attila Sinke and Marian Horvat:
http://www.traditioninaction.org/polemics/F_01_Kazan5_Myth.htm
Interesting link,. FLOR. I wonder if you are even capable of finding links that are not sickeningly partisan.
On other pages, they rant and fume about how unfair and wrong it was for the Vatican to return to Russia THEIR Holy Icon of Kazan, because Russia had not yet been converted as foretold by one of the Fatima prophecies.
That is so wrong on so many levels. You are entitled to withhold somebody’s precious property until they submit to something you were told to do to them by someone they don’t believe in????? (leaving aside the whole Fatima business and the highly contorted interpretations of it, not to mention the convenient timings of the revelations).
I felt that maybe I had been a little unfair to the Hungarians, so I thought I should give a chance to their opinions to be heard.
Certainly not all Venezuelans are Marxists. Many are other sorts of socialists, social democrats, nationalists, ‘progressives’, Chavistas etc, and they, this disparate but decent lot who believe in a society not riven by inequality, poverty and elite contempt, have won all but one of the last fifteen or so elections, plebiscites etc in Venezuela.
There are other Venezuelans, too, fascists, coup-plotters, rich parasites, Rightwing thugs of every sort, all loyal to the Great Satan in Mor-dor-on-the-Potomac, all dedicated to the reversal of all the social progress eked out in the face of vicious Yankee subversion, and these scum, unsurprisingly, are apparently your preference.
Seems the Metropolitan rolled with the punches while Jesus rolled over in his grave when he foresaw how he would be used by every Tom, Dick and Harry for power, profit and popularity.
Wouldn’t it also be a Friends of Stalin Club?
Ah, but that would defeat the purpose of the article.
The only real story here is the ridiculousness of a bankrupt government spending that much for a monument it doesn’t need.
I think part of the problem is the Uniate Church destabilizing Ukraine…for decades. And yes, the Catholic Church is capable of that. I heard a lecture by Catherine Austin Fitts at this you tube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=w0mimIp8mr8
Where, in the past century the US destablized Italy or Spain, can’t remember and the Vatican was in touch with CIA to help.
The Vatican supported all the eastern European fascist regimes, and actively aided the flight of fascists, particularly from Croatia, after the war, through the infamous ‘Rat-Lines’, providing disguises, Vatican pass-ports, refuge in Church property etc. Then, as Yugoslavia was being destroyed, the Vatican, under the monster Wojtyla, protector of priestly kiddy-fiddlers everywhere, and Germany, repaying WW2 loyalty to the continuing Reich, quickly recognised the fascist revanchist regimes in Slovenia and Croatia.
But now the masons who infiltrated the Vatican have reached to the top. They got rid of Pope Benedict whom they could not control, and installed their puppet Francis. Sad but true.
Of course some of those cardinals are not so kosher. As the title here very honestly says:
“Kaddish To Be Recited At Catholic Cardinal’s Funeral – You Can Take The Jew Out Of Judaism But You Can’t Take Judaism Out Of The Jew”
And he “was even touted as a possible candidate for the papacy”. Well, that explains a lot.
Forgot link:
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2007/08/kaddish-to-be-r.html
This is why I think we all have to develop our own relationship to Christ. Churches are corporations. I guess they’ll still be around for a few centuries, but we must must must develop our own relationship to Christ. And his angels.
That depends on the churches, and how their mission is subverted. Many churches, both Orthodox and Catholic, have been persecuted by the enemies of Christ, but they will survive.
I would like to add here that I also mentioned the Orthodox Church only because I think it is well-guarded:
http://russia-insider.com/en/2015/03/19/4705
Not in any way to suck up to Saker, who already knows my true feelings towards it from my previous banned comments.
J. Peter Zenger
Wouldn’t it also be a Friends of Stalin Club?
Don’t you mean Putin? The Stalin references are so old skool…
Saker, Stop looking for enemies of your version of the Church. You are about as holy as a storm furher, tho clearly you are ardently faithful to the idea of the Orthodox and its “tribe” which does happen to be defineable as saintly.
If you are new to Orthodoxy, this here is very mind opening:
http://orthodoxinfo.com
Here’s a more detailed story about Bociurkiw.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/obituary-professor-bohdan-bociurkiw-1183010.html
As Professor of Political Science, founder and director of the Institute of Soviet and East European Studies , and Associate Director of the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies, and one-time adviser to the Canadian State Department….. he had more than a little influence on how Ukraine is viewed throughout Canada and in the United States.
He was a Galician Greek-Catholic who was active enough in the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (yep that UON of Bandera) to be imprisoned for it. He emigrated to Canada after the Soviet Union took over Galicia (with the rest of Ukraine) in 1947.
Any surprise that his son Michael, with experience in various UN missions, applied for the OSCE role? he was brought up so deeply in this, he doesn’t even realise he has an agenda. And the other members we don’t know about, but they are all Europeans.
Again the “Catholic” very eager to discredit a serious historian. My, my.
Flor, I think what you’re saying is that Catholics are being persecuted the same way that Jews are being persecuted. The leaders of the ‘corporate religions’ in every country perhaps, are deserving of the criticism, but the general public are not deserving of it.
I agree. But its a sign, that the time of the organized church is coming to an end. Its become decadent.
But I hope we don’t lose our connection with the Divine World, just because the corporations are evil.
Flor we had some fruitful discussions on another article. Here all you are doing is sniping at an ad hominem level. Good thing you put “Catholic” in quotes, because I never said I am. Now to deprive you of new opportunities for sniping, I am not going to tell you what I am. Contribute to the topic please, or hold your tongue.
@ Kat Kan
We already know who you are. BOT TAK told us.
Serious historian. OK. Certainly serious. Historian?
Packets of (original?) documents arriving by post? from the NKVD and Kremlin??? how did they know what to send him? has anyone else seen them? read them? and they end up showing what he’s been saying for years?
We know many many documents are interpreted differently by different equally good historians. The death counts for the war are out by MILLIONS for every country, for example.
So, have his results been peer reviewed? Whatever he’s written is likely to be, biased and nobody has ever checked it, or interpreted it differently or refuted it, at least not in English. Why???? because the only people with access to the language of the materials (assuming the materials were available) and access to English and interest in the topic are ALL going to be on the same side…. Ukrainians who emigrated to English speaking countries young enough to make an academic career there.
Those are all victimhood-imbued former UON Galician Greek-Catholics. These were the people who emigrated — anti-Russian, anti-Soviet, fearing trouble over their wartime nationalist activities, from people even then they considered their ethnic inferiors. Same way as most of the emigrants to the US and Brazil and Argentina were the Nazis; from Croatia the Ustashi etc etc.
People who may be interested in the other side of the story, or even know there WAS one, or didn’t define the issue as a predominantly religious one(which it wasn’t)…. they stayed. They did not have the access to becoming English speaking professors. External English speakers can’t access the Polish and Ukrainian and Russian documents, if they exist.
So we end up with a story told entirely from one side, which we know for SURE, from the whole rest of the history, was A SIDE therefore not the whole story by definition.
We also know their “side” did a fair bit of church burning — and shipping people to concentration camps — that is conveniently not included in the histories, to make it look like they were innocent victims. It is not the history of how their church or their ethnic group acted in that period of time. It is the history of how they were badly done by.
UON started as a fair freedom fight against being returned again under repressive Polish rule. Somehow they got the idea the only way to get free was by murdering everyone else, and to this end they sided with anyone they thought would help them, only to find they then had to murder those as well….. and oh no, here comes another lot, must massacre them too. And their Church encouraged this instead of remembering Thou Shalt Not Kill.
Today they are still burning other peoples’ churches, and using one-sided victim-histories as one of the excuses, once AGAIN doing the dirty work for someone else who would enslave them too.
Yeah, like you care about other people’s churches.
To the credit of Michael Bociurkiw, he was the first one to say that the MH17 was hit by “machine gun fire, very, very strong machine gun fire” and no “example of missile”!
They cant afford the basic decencies for the people, but hey, millions for a monument to a nazi loving faggot? Why not? This is the new zionist world order, where anything goes.
Here is a good answer to Lvov,and their friends:
A Letter of a True Son of Zaporozhe to the Galician Nationalists
I’m Ukrainian, descended from Zaporozhe Cossacks and from ancient Rus. My grandpas beat the Nazis, risking their lives. I say… since when are Galician descendants of Polish and Austrian slaves, who were never amongst us until 1939, who’d lived for half a millennium under other states until Stalin forcibly joined them to us, “model” Ukrainians? Galicians speak a Polish-Austrian pidgin that differs from real Ukrainian as much as galoshes differ from ladies’ pumps, but they decided that they’re the real Ukrainians! They even claim to defend the Ukrainian language and nation. It’s like claiming that since American Negroes speak English, and the English living in England speak English, they’re one nation. However, a common historical and cultural past has to exist to have a unified nation. WE DON’T HAVE A COMMON HISTORICAL PAST WITH THEM. They stunk up our country with their diaspora-Galician nationalism, which they called “Ukrainian”.
They’re all shits… RUKH, KUN, NUNS, OUN, UPA, and that mongrel Tyagnibok’s Svoboda… these cockroaches that crawl all over the Ukraine are EXCLUSIVELY FROM GALICIA. Suddenly, in their opinion, they decided that all of us in Novorossiya and Malorossiya are racially inferior Ukrainians. They’re not even of us, yet, they presume to teach us that Ukrainian nationality and their shitty “consciousness” are synonymous. By the way, THEIR SHITTY “CONSCIOUSNESS” IS NOTHING BUT A GALICIAN HISTORICAL INFERIORITY COMPLEX. Their history has nothing but slavery and betrayal.
Now, they’re trying to steal our history, claiming that they’re an “old Cossack clan”. Ha! They were NEVER Cossacks… Cossacks impaled any Uniates that they caught for betraying the faith of their ancestors. On the other hand, Cossacks showed mercy to Polacks! Taras Shevchenko isn’t a part of their history, because he was never in Austrian Galicia. In any case, almost all Shevchenko’s prose is in Russian. They stick their dirty snouts into the history of a country where their ancestors never lived. Their portrayal of their role in the history of Bogdan Khmelnitsky is wrong. They weren’t part of the history of Bogdan Khmelnitsky, because the Galicians always sided with the Polish occupier in the war of liberation of our people against the Poles. In the real history, they sided with Polish King Sigismund and the Austrian Emperor Ferdinand. What did these Galician mutants ever really do to benefit the Ukraine? NOTHING! Galicia… the motherland of traitors and human sludge.
Letter to the Editor from Taras
https://02varvara.wordpress.com/2014/05/01/a-letter-of-a-true-son-of-zaporozhe-to-the-galician-nationalists/
This rhetoric about the Galicians being very different from the other Ukrainians (non-Russians) is the same rhetoric that’s being pushed by some in Romania about Transylvanians being different from the other Romanians. Divide et impera.
How does that comment dispute the fact that Galicians are different in many ways than other Ukrainians? That’s right,it doesn’t.
And how are they different ?
FLOR please stop trolling. Contribute something useful instead of sniping or acting ignorant.
Work it out for yourself. TIP: consider
* ethnic mix
* language mix
* religion
* political history
* differing foreign influences
* major war histories, including being on opposing sides
Kat, please stop policing. I asked a legitimate question.
Koestler’s Thirteen Tribe is a “classic”. The PDF is the whole book (without index). I don’t know why the paperback is 318 pages. Is just a difference of formatting (different publisher). The first two editions (1976, 1977) had 244 and 224 pages respectively.
For more recent info try: Khazaria.com. The American Center of Khazar Studies. A Resource for Turkic and Jewish History in Russia and Ukraine @http://www.khazaria.com/
You can still use: “History of the Jews in Russia and Poland : From the Earliest Times Until the Present Day”, by Simon Dubnow, (free e-book), although is a bit antiquated.
That book is interesting,I read it many years ago.There has been a lot more research done on the subject since.No definitive study has ever been done though, that I know of.I think that is because the subject is so divisive. And Zionist groups are afraid of the results.
Personally I only care about it as history.History is history,it shouldn’t, one way or the other favor a “side”,it just is history,good and bad.There is a saying that I totally believe “You don’t know who you are.Unless you know where you came from”.
Years ago I read a book (don’t remember the name) that talked about a study done on blood types in Europe and the Middle East.It was an old book when I read it.And in those days,scientists were only beginning to know about “DNA”.They didn’t even call it that.But what they did know was that, ethnic peoples had elements in their blood (DNA?) that was close or even unique to those and related peoples.I guess unlike today,they had just a superficial knowledge of DNA research. I believe the study was done in the 1930’s,or at least started then.The purpose was to test the nazi belief that Jews were a separate people in Europe from “Aryans” as the nazis called non-Jews.It wasn’t a nazi study at all,the scientists were anti-nazi.
What they found was that the long established Jewish communities shared the same elements in their blood as their non-Jewish neighbors.As I said, they didn’t have the detailed data available today to see small variations between peoples.But as for the broad research they were the same.Which considering,conversions from one or the others faith, mixed marriages.And other sexual relations for centuries,that isn’t surprising.
The only noticeable difference they did find to that was in Jews from Eastern Europe.Which at that time held the majority of Europe’s Jews.And, from which most American and Israeli Jews today descent.In the main,just as in the long established Western European Jews,those in the East also shared much of their neighbors blood characteristics.And for the reasons,I already mentioned.But in some there was an extra element not seen in the Western European old communities (the reason I say “long established,and old communities in Western Europe.Is that during the 19th and early 20th Centuries there was a massive influx of Eastern European Jews into Western Europe.And by the 1930’s many Western European Jews descended from those people).The scientists didn’t understand why there was that difference.Since as part of the study,they had necessarily taken samples from all ethnic groups in Europe and the Middle East.They started checking those samples to see if they could locate that element in other ethnic groups blood samples.
First they checked the Semitic peoples samples.Thinking maybe that was where it came from.But nothing came from that.Then they discovered that same element in samples from peoples that had some Turkic descent.So they determined that historically,at some time many Jews from Eastern Europe had mixed with people of Turkic descent.Since these were scientists and not historians.They didn’t follow the historical meanings of that.A few years ago I tried to find that book again.And wasn’t able to.I think someone else did understand the meaning of that in historical terms.
The Khazar’s were a Turkic people.Many of whom (not all by any means),especially the ruling groups,converted to Judaism in the early middle ages.After many wars with Christian Rus,and Muslim Arabs.Their Empire was destroyed by the Rus Slavs.And their lands today are in the RF and Ukraine.After their defeat they seem to have dropped out of history.As I said not all,by any means were Jewish.I suspect that the Christian and Muslim ones assimilated with their Christian and Muslim neighbors.And disappeared over the Centuries as a separate group.There are historical legends about some tribes of Khazar origin having moved into Hungary at the time of the Magyar settlement there.And that there were Jewish communities in the Kiev region as well.So I suspect,that the Jewish Khazar over the Centuries moved around in Eastern Europe and mixed into the other Jews that had moved there.So that by the 19th Century (and much earlier as well) they were so mixed into the Eastern European Jewish community that they were the same people.That would explain the scientific research data found.
But as I said,its politically sensitive today to research that subject deeply.Most aren’t looking for pure history (as I am).Many would have an agenda reason for the research.Anti-Zionists would use it to discredit Zionism.While pro-Zionists would try and prove the theory wrong,to confirm Zionism.So getting a neutral research study is near to impossible today.
I will leave you with a good question asked in Palestine about the European and American Zionists claim to be the original Hebrews “returning” to “their” land.If they are those people “how come you left brown,and return white”.
In answer to your request for books.That is a hard question.Most have an agenda,so it’s hard to say which is truthful.Usually I look for the author.If its someone of a Jewish background I research his other works.If I see pro-Zionism I discard it.If not found,its usually unbiased.When I see a non-Jewish author (not that easy,as most writers on those subjects are Jewish).Then I research him in the other direction.If I see a antisemitic past.I know that one won’t be truthful either.Once you weed out those two groups the books are pretty sparse on those subjects.
Bob, how do you define ‘antisemitism’? At present in the West, ‘antisemitism’ has reached the status of a veritable cult. It is everywhere, being used as a tool to intimidate, villify, slander and silence. I’ve seen it recently used to vilify Naomi Oreskes, the notable historian, herself of Jewish descent, in regard to her work exposing the tobacco industry harm denial industry. The vile Bernard-Henry Levy a few years ago, accused those ‘guilty’ of anti-Americanism of being, in fact, ‘antisemites’, a revealing statement.
It is being used by the increasingly deranged Hollande, threatening to outlaw ‘conspiracy theories'(such as that which says that Putin is not a slavering beast responsible entirely for the Ukrainian tragedy)and the web-sites that promulgate them, in the name of combating ‘antisemitism’. Straight after the Je Suis Charlie imbecility, with all the screeched declarations of total support for ‘Free Speech’ of any kind, you have Zionazis ordering their political servants in Europe to outlaw ie ban with the threat of prosecution, any ‘anti-Zionist’ or ‘anti-Israel’ criticism, on the grounds that it is really ‘antisemitism’. In other words, criticism of one of the vilest, most cruel and sadistic regimes in the world, is to be banned, simply because those guilty of these crimes are Jews. Apparently any criticism of the behaviour of any Jew anywhere on Earth at any time, is to be outlawed. Je Suis Bullshit! And in fact, ‘antisemitism’ is a purely fictional construct. Judeophobia, the hatred of all Jews, no matter what their individual character or behaviour, simply because they are Jews, is of course, brainless, morally reprehensible and worthy of condemnation. Just like Islamophobia, the undifferentiated hatred of Moslems, which is running rampant in the West, propelled, ironically, in the main by just those Rightwing and fascistic racist Jews demanding that ‘Free Speech’ be destroyed in the witch-hunt against ‘antisemitism’,
I would define antisemitism as hatred of Semitic peoples from the mere fact alone of them being Semitic.But in the modern context the greatest real enemy of the Jewish people/faith is Zionism itself.Up until the rise of Zionism.Jews in the “diaspora” countries,had for a long time moved to assimilation in those societies.And though it was difficult in some,it was progressing in most.Many Jews had been Germanized,Polonized,Russianized,Americanized,etc. And with that, were on the way to being accepted as just another religious group in those societies.And Jews thinking of themselves as part of the national groups in the countries where they lived.Zionism put a block on that.It make those that adopted it consider themselves different,and superior to their neighbors.And it pointed out to the peoples in the countries Jews lived in,that they considered themselves as a separate people.In an age of nationalism in Europe that was the total opposite to what Jews in those countries had been trying to do for a century.In settler countries like the US,where everyone almost, had a hyphen in their ethnic background that wasn’t such a drawback.But in a Europe searching for “nation states” is was.Zionist fed fuel to latent antisemitism in Europe.I have always firmly believed that Zionism was a contributing factor to the rise of antisemitic nazism.
The Dictionary of the Khazars
By Milorad Pavić
An artistic presentation
Schlomo Sand – The Invention of the Jeewish People
The super-bottom line is that Jews are not descended from the Christ killers, their blood is not divinely cursed, they are the first victims of Judaic (institutional) deception. BUT as soon as this deception is revealed, Judaism, the engine of anti-Christianity, shall fly apart and the “definitive Jew” will rebuild the Catholic Church Pulverised.
That was sarcasm, right ?
Irish sarcasm
Henry Ford – The International Jew = seminal book
Ford was maligned by his enemies but he had real info.
Nesta Webster – World Revolution
Eustace Mullins – The World Order A Study In The Hegemony Of Parasitism 1985
To my Orthodox Christian friends who are suffering around the world:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Im%C3%A1genes_ortodoxas_de_la_Virgen_Mar%C3%ADa#/media/File:Deliveress_of_Tashla.jpg
“Bihotz” ( “Heart” ) (Ken Zazpi & Euskadiko Orkestra Sinfonikoa ):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7xHiYJiL9Y
“Heart” ( by Ken Zazpi ):
Heart, heart, heart,
heart, tell me:
Unable to recognize the silence
I forgot, heart, what I am,
reminds me, tell me once.
Oh, I had never the answers
oh, guide me,
heart, heart, heart.
Speak to me again
about when I was a boy
who dreamed of being afraid of nobody,
loved by others did not want to be.
Talk to me now, switching off the lights,
about who I am.
In this life without mercy,
there is no net,
protected by compassion,
even though,
I am horrified.
.
Uooh, I isolate myself,
come to my mind,
uooh, guide me,
heart, heart, heart.
Speak to me again
about when I was a boy,
who dreamed of being afraid of nobody,
loved by others did not want to be.
Speak to me now, switching off the lights,
about who I wanted to be.
Talk to me, heart,
about who I once met,
about who knew nothing of way of life,
talk to me again,
loved by others,
talk to me again,
did not want to be.
Uooh, uooh,
Uoooh, oooh,
heart, heart, heart.
These are the lyrics of a beloved marxist song written in 1864 at a congress where the great lovers of mankind Marx and Engels participated:
This is the final struggle
Let us group together
And tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race
How ominous… and prescient…
Such outburst only confirms my suspicions, you just come here to provoke. Hope all forum have noticed already.
As far as I’m concerned, you can strive everything you want in mess, even a message of love and hope sent to friends who are suffering and I appreciate.
For my part, here you can rave all you want about Marxism and Communism, this will be my last word to you.
I have noticed three of my posts missing.One that was posted now disappeared.And two others that haven’t showed up.??????
Yes that true. They appear to be long quotes from books and I have set them aside to be reviewed by thesaker for ‘approval’. I have left a note for him about your posting. This is the policy he has asked us to follow.
H.S.
OK,thanks.They are actually articles from ” Voices from Russia”.
https://02varvara.wordpress.com/2014/05/01/a-letter-of-a-true-son-of-zaporozhe-to-the-galician-nationalists/
https://02varvara.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/ukrainianism-a-cancerous-tumour-in-the-russian-world-banderovtsy-the-result-of-ukrainisation/
One of the best books, possibly the best, on this topic is “The Real World Conquerors” by Louis Marschalko. A Hungarian, fancy that.
Chief of the Kiev regional police in his younger days before the junta gave him his job:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10205407024608917&set=gm.351062788434611&type=1&theater
He may have tried to protect his people against murderers (both Nazis and Stalin), so it is hard to judge without knowing what he did in-between. If he concealed people who were in danger, that is not so bad!
Nevertheless I heartily agree that it is utter nonsense for kievites to proclaim him a hero…
They don’t give us often occasions to laugh without crying, do they?
Strange developments in the Kolomoisky saga
http://offguardian.org/2015/03/22/the-heat-is-on/
Soviet Communist or German Nazi’s the choices in WWII were great were they.
Sheptytsky was not even Galician. He was a Polish pan, the scion of a long line of Polish pany. He was induced to become “eastern-rite” by his religious authorities.
Ternopil – Right Sector accompanied by Uniate priest claim they want to enter orthodox church for worship. Refused admission unless they remove guns and masks. Why would the priest be with them?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lEWYs9HnfE
story from Truth From Ukraine Facebook, interest5ing simple description of church history
24th March 2015, Ternopil region, fascist state Ukraine
2 days ago, at 22nd March, representatives of Catholic Church in Ukraine together with fascists tried to capture Ortodox Church in the Ternopil region. Many same attempts, few were successful, happened from time of “victory” of fascists in the Kiev.
As said Basil Moysyuk, Priest of the church of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin in the village Stinka of Buchatsky area of Ternopil region, 22 March at Sunday at 3 p. m. dozen priests of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church staged provocation near the temple of courtyard of the parish which he headed. This action of Uniate [Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church] supported Andrei Buchynskyi MP of Buchatsky District Council (from fascist party “Svoboda”). He was accompanied by more than 50 masked youths in camouflage, posing as representatives of the “Right Sector”. Militant gunmen tried to enter the temple as if to pray. Orthodox believers from village community refused to let them come in, explaining that each person can enter the temple, when he want to perform worship. But to the the house of God they must come unarmed and open-faced.
In the video you see priests of Greek Catholic Church in the street.(belong to Catholic church, haven’t any relation to Greece or Greek people, this name got Rome Catholic Church in Ukraine in order to force Ortodox Russians in modern western Ukraine to became Catholic, from 15th century. Ortodox Christianity came to Slavic tribes from 9 century from Byzanthy Empire which was Greek Empire actually. So Catholic Church tried to attract more Russians by fake name) Also you can see fascist thugs in street, police which just watching. Black- red flag is old flag of Ukrainian fascists and flag of terrorist organization with fascist ideology “Right sector”. Local people, mostly women, you can see in yard of church. Defenders are inhabitants of village, they speak with same accent as invaders. Some villagers stand in street, outside church.
At that Sunday people who worship to Ortodox church won, but fascists and Ukrainian catholic able to burn down church and homes of faithful defenders. Catholic church of Ukraine which supported fascist coup want to capture Ortodox churches with it s properties. Many churches were attacked and some churches were captured, as well as priests were forced to run.
This is western democracy which came to Ukraine
By Konstantin